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A42884 A true and lively character of a right communicating church-member briefely laid down in eighteen severall arguments: proving an absolute necessity of separating, not only, from all that are openly prophane, but from such also, who have not some visible, that is to say, probable worke of the sanctifying spirit upon them. By Iohn Gobert Master of Arts, and minister of the Gospel. Gobert, John. 1650 (1650) Wing G904B; ESTC R217419 24,327 70

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because such as are now call'd Presbyterians were in the Bishops times call'd Conformists because they subscribed to the doctrine and discipline then established it must needs follow that if some other weighty cause mooved not viz. a reformation of a Church Member that one of these Parties at least rather sought occasion of exception against the Bishops then found it 3. It setteth Professours together amongst themselves for who knows not that though in respect of practice of taking in or casting out these two Parties differ not but in circumstanciall or matter of discipline yet the judgement upon which such and such are to be taken or not to be taken in is something more and a matter doctrinall The 17th Argument is from the mimicall imitation of the Papists wherein they strive to have all the members of their Church visibly holy thus Whatsoever is pretended by the adversaries of truth and so farre practised by them as more sutable and serviceable to Gods honour that in gathering of Church-members is not of truths friends to be left out and neglected but even the adversaries of truth do by their doctrine and practise teach in pretence at least that only members visibly holy are to be received into Church-fellowship Ergo this ought of truths friends to be sincerely taught and practised The major will be easily granted by all such as thinke it reasonable that for zeale of holinesse Churches professedly reformed come not short of Papists The minor proposition is proved by instance Take those points of popery which are truly so called that is wherein they and we the case so standing doe and must differ and we shall all along still observe that in all their doings they aime at perfection in a Church-member As first in their beliefe concerning Baptisme they teach and beleeve that Baptisme doth absolutely take away originall sinne so that those motions of sin or unto sinne by some called reliquiae or the remnants of sinne are not sin properly as indeed they are not of the person but of the nature as our Divines distinguish Neither is it a specificall property of all sinne to be voluntary by their owne confession to instance in originall sinne in an infant But put the case now that a Church-member of theirs fall into a sinne after Baptisme they call mortall they then fall upon another salve for perfection or visible holinesse in a Church-member and that is their doctrine concerning pennance wherein they teach that auricular confession which by them is made a Sacrament conferring grace doe restore them fully to that integritie which they received in Baptisme and when they are thus restored they have a doctrine that of such as are in grace the Law can be fulfilled and kept So that their after-obedience and pennance doe not only ex congruo but ex condigno merit life eternall And all these beliefes though protestants doe justly except against as hay stubble and wood built upon the golden foundation of the christian profession yet from these tenents as bad as they are we may gather thus much That they thinke it a very unreasonable thing to admit of a Church-member into communion in all the ordinances which is not at least visibly holy The eighteenth Argument is from hence That no mischief or spirituall danger can follow the taking into Church fellowship Members only that are visibly holy Thus Whatsoever can be profitably done without the least prejudice or spirituall hinderance of any one not taken in for a Member that caeteris paribus that is to say which can be done without any kind of inconvenience ought to be put in practise But the gathering of Members only visibly holy can be practised without the least hazard of such as are not qualyfied that is they can run no spirituall hazard or danger Ergo such kinde of Church gathering ought to be put in practise The major is easily proved and may well serve for a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or signe of Gods will and pleasure this way for if there were the least hinderance to mans salvation by such a practise we might safely say this or such a way could not be of God For as among Divines that sence of scripture is not to be received which being so taken oppugneth other scriptures so neither is that thought to be Gods ordinance which opposeth the generall good of mans salvation The minor is thus proved Whatsoever hindereth not either the covenant of Gods election or the influence of the spirit from working faith and repentance yea which hindereth not the increase of grace in any that are actually in Gods favour that cannot be a prejudice to the salvation of any but to take in for Members of a Church such onely as are visibly holy doth none of these it neither hindereth the covenant of Gods election nor the influence of the spirit in working faith and repentance neither doth it hinder the increase of grace in any that are actually in Gods favour Ergo to take in only such qualified Members is safely and securely to be practised The major being granted The minor proposition is grounded from the example of the woman of Canaan who was no visible Member of a Church and yet her faith was greater then any's in Israel If indeed we were popish in our beliefe that the Sacraments were not only seales but meanes of grace so farre that they give grace ex opere operate then there might be some question in the point But our beliefe is that one either well catechised or preached unto wanteth nothing externall simply necessary to salvation If any doe now object that if we can with such safety be out of this externall Church communion wherefore then as well not out as in to what end is it to become a member To which we answer First that this might be as safely objected to any professed ordinance which all acknowledge to be of God May we not thus except against Baptisme or the word preached May not reading serve instead of preaching or is it not enough to hear of the doctrin of Baptisme Therefore as in such cavils the usuall answer is That not the want of an Ordinance but the contempt is damnable and that ordinance is contemned which we might enjoy and do not The same answer will serve for this present purpose When we may become members and are not gathered t is our contempt Secondly this exception would serve if we held that Church-communion were only for our selves but this we doe not Church-communion is for more necessary and importent ends as first that Gods will and command in this particular might be fulfilled and done and this all parties confesse not only by their owne practise but by beleeving the communion of Saints Secondly this Church-fellowship is the Citie set upon an hill and a lighted candle set upon a candlestick that others might see this ●●●ly work and so glorifie God for it in the day of their conversion FINIS
through errour of Doctrine that ought not now in our time of reformation to be practised but to gather Church-members other h●n of such as are v●sibly holy doth this it magnifi●th and setteth up errors of D●ctrine and mistakes of former ages Ergo are not now to be practised The major I suppose will be undeniably granted The Minor is proved by instance vide conce●ning Baptisme the Doctrina about not onely the esse but the absolute necessity of Infants Baptisme have as it is knowne to all beene the cause in former ages of taking every one into Church-fellowship witnesse the Primitive times if we may call them Primitive wherein Augustine Ambrose Chrysostome the Gregorys and such famous worthies lived it is well known to all who have read their works that those most godly and ze●lous Worthies not having the Light which we have did unanimousl● hold that Baptisme made Infants Christians and that children u●baptized could not be saved Neither in this Tenent do the Papists at all erre from the Doctrine of the Antients Su●table though happily not the same altogether was the Episcopall Tenent That Baptisme was not onely a seal as circumcision was to which this of Baptisme succeeded but a means also to receive grace whence it wa● g●●erally believed that Infant● did receive such a tincture such an indeluble character and stamp of holinesse in the Ordinance that mens particular failings as they called them though this were no other then grosse sin did no whit unchristianize but a little blemish their Christianity Whence millions are so besotted that they believe that as their fathers and mothers in the course of nature have made them men and women the Minister at the Font made them Christians Now if all upon this notion were taken in for Church-members and the ground of all this in these dayes of light be ●ound extreamly faulty what reason but the building on such an unsure foundation erected should be now demolished and other and better Members upon further Gospell discoveries to be taken in The thirteenth Ar●ument is t●ken from the great scandall which a Church otherwise gathered giveth our adversaries the Papists thu● That which maketh the Protestants justly excepted against and taxed by the Papists to be a company of grosse and Athiesticall Libertines that is not by any means to be allowed but to gather a Church of common Protestants or of such as are but barely catechised is to make all Protestants by the Papists to be so accounted Ergo to gather members of other than of such as are visibly holy is not to be allowed The major being granted The minor is thus proved That Profession the profes●ors whereof doe come short of Papists in point of practise as touching the Religion they professe that profession doe scandalize the Papists and consequently gives them cause to thinke that all such professors are but grosse and Atheisticall Libertines but this doe a mixture in gathering Church-members it makes them come short of Papists in point of practise as touching the Religion they professe Ergo it makes the Papist to think that the Protestants are a company of grosse and Atheisticall Libertines and consequently such a Church-gathering is not to be allowed The major being granted The minor is proved by instance viz. By comparing the common protestant and the papist together in practicall part of Religion in which of these most religious forwardness is to be discerned and to begin with the papists let him be but meerly catechised in the principles of his owne Religion he hath in many things the start and precedency above the common protestant First in matter of understanding it is more furnished by far I say not better As for the co●mon protestant he is seen but in his Creed whereas the other is taught in the doctrine of 7 Sacraments Secondly his beliefe is racked and screwed up to a farre higher pitch than is the Protestants who is ordinarily accused and thought of by them to be a company of brutish and naturall men to goe no further in their beliefe then to sence and reason as in matter of their carnall presence Thirdly the papist will doe much more for his profession tha● the common sort of protestants will doe for theirs As for the papist he will yeeld his outward man to fasting and all kind of pennance and his heart and inward man though to an erroneous yet to an auricular confession whereas the common protestant makes his religion to consist for the most part in the bare deniall of all this But will some object And doe not your visibly holy Saint you speak of denie all these We answer Yea or else he cannot be in his belief any other than a Papist or worse But now observe and yee shall see these visibly holy members as farre as the judgment of charitie will give them for to have that by vertue of a speciall and inward call for which the Papists doe undertake all these works For let papists but retain the true doctrine of their religion and they are taught that all the Sacraments serve but as means to convey grace to such as are in grace to speake in their owne phrase and that by vertue of that they call a foederall Covenant as infant Baptisme where the party baptized cannot ponere obicem or to such as either retaine or at least recover their first grace Now I say if this holy visibly member can wrarantably prove as he may well how that God worketh both how and when and where he pleaseth without these he hath both in his belief and life also proved himself to be more excellent than his neighbour which is the superstitious Papist and the common Protestant The fourteenth Argument is taken from the disgrace which unqualified members doe bring upon members better qualified thus Whatsoever causeth the gifts and graces of the best qualified to be mis-called and mis-censured or mis-construed that in gathering Church-members is not to be practised but to take in members not visibly holy causeth the gifts and graces of the best qualified to be mis-construed and ill spoken of Ergo the taking in members into Church-fellowship not visibly holy is not to be practised The major proposition being granted The minor is thus proved Whatsoever makes the gifts and graces of the best qualified to be counted of the non-discerning superfluous and more then need or which is worse a desire to be seene above others that makes their graces to be mis-called and mis-construed But the taking in of members not visibly holy doth this it makes the gifts and graces of the best qualified to be counted of the non-discerning superfluous and more then need or which is worse it makes them to be counted of such non-discerning spirits to desire only to be seen above others Ergo to take in such kind of members is not lawfull Both propositions will be soone granted if we consider the old axiome frustra fit per plura quod fieri potuit per
p●uciora for example if Thomas and Titus or Timothy were taken in for Church Members for their more excellent endowments of visible holinesse and Robert and James and John to be discerned onely by their more heartless profession upon those easie and common qualifications also to be taken in will not now the more part and worser there being greater store of these Members then of the other make the better part and the fewer to be disgraced and to have more then need in their profession above the rest and thus all things shall return again to their old Chaos so doing we shall not onely sad the hearts of such whom the Lord hath not sadded but as much as in us lies we shall frustrate and make void all the blood that hath been shed all the labour oile and cost if I may so speak that have been spent for the effecting and perfecting a through reformation for since t is granted by all parties both Episcopall Presbyterian and others that in matters of doctrine Protestants doe agree if this matter and way of seperating the pretious from the vile be not by all Parties who desire a reformation more punctually stood upon What will at length come of all that hath been done for if we allow of any other way we must make Church Members specially and specifically consider'd that is as they stand in relation to a visible Church to consist as well of civill and morall men as of the best qualified and in so doing we shall not onely in the building of Gods House together with gold and silver patch up dirt and clay and stubble but make the state it self and all the true subjects to it a jeere and a scorn to the Malignant adversary to say of our pious reformers that they would have reformed if they could have found matter yea will not Bellermine himselfe that great Stickler in the Church of Rome shake hands with us in our reformation who tels us that to be inwardly qualified that is beside bare profession to have some worke of the spirit upon them is no esse or necessaty requisite of a Church Member provided they be Catholiques of the Romish Edition and so such kind of intruders being let in all will in time come to say of things brought again to their old bias as Captains and Lievtenants doe in martialling their Souldiers faces about and as yee were Who therefore endued with any measure of zeale for God will not in his thoughts abhor and in his practise as farre concerns him in his place endeavour to keep of and keep out such a medly in Gods Church least otherwise ancient possession doe as it did in all the Bishops time claim custome and prescription to say to the best gifted and graced in our Churches as once Israel said to their zealous brethren on the other side Jordan Joshuah the 22. from the 23. verse to the 29. The putting up of a civill morall brother will in time pull down the Altar of distinction between a visible Saint and a Morallist And he that now happily while these times of reformation last he that was hardly the foot will if suffer'd to intrude in short time so become the head that he will altogether shoulder out the other So far the fourteenth Argument The fifteenth Argument is drawne from the calling of the Jewes the maner of their conversion and their deportment when they are called Thus All such as gather Churches ought in the gathering of their Members to follow the best example either of Churches already gathered or of such as shall be certainly gathered at Christs second comming but if we take in for Members such as are not visibly holy we cannot follow these kind of examples therefore to take in such unqualified Members is not lawfull As to the proofe of the major proposition t is not only jure divino but ecclesiastico or parlimentari for t is the sum of our covenant in our worke of reformation in it to follow the examples of the best reformed Churches The minor is proved by instance we herein f●llow not the example and practise of the Jewish Church when it shall be called Ergo such as shall inherit Judah for all ages shall be all righteous Esay the 60. and 21. Esay the 61. and 9. They shall be known among the nations and therefore among themselves Esay the 52. and the 1. the whole subject of the Revelation setting the judgements aside which are to be poured upon Antichrist concerneth the visible holinesse and earthly glory of that Church when they shall be called according to the best interpreters of that scripture See Revel the 21. and 27. Revel the 22 and 14. All that will be objected is that well may that Church be pure when Christ himselfe shall purge it by his personall presence with it for that purpose let us therefore tarry till that time come because we are not able to doe as Christ can when he shall come again To which we answer That we are by the word and by the spirit inabled to doe in measure what Christ shall perform at that day for it is not required that all wicked men be shut out in statu quo the best reformed Churches must allow of hypocrites which not discovered can doe no harme to a Church whatsoever harm they doe themselves what though Badgers skins covered the Tabernacle yet being died red they were usefull Leviticus the 27. and last What though the brazen Sea was born up by Oxen yet their hinder parts that is to say their parts more uncomely were inward so though Hypocrites will get in while they are not discovered may be of excellent use So farre this 15. Argument tending to shew the necessity of Church gathering from the Jewes when they shall be called The Sixteenth Argument is drawn from the great scarre and scandall which will otherwise ●lurre the reputation of one of those considerable Parties from which those who are called the godly Party doe arise Thus Whatsoever objecteth the reformers of Religion either to the scorn and derision of the unreformed or themselves to unbrotherly censuring one of another that in gathering Church Members is not to be practised but to gather Church Members of any other then such as are visibly holy doth this It objecteth the reformers of Religion either to the scorn and derision of such as are unreformed or themselves to the unbrotherly censuring one of another Ergo such a gathering Church Members is not lawfull The major proposition is valid without exception if we prove that the scandall which lieth upon reformers be that scandall which Divines call datus or that which is given The minor proposition is proved by parts as first That the Episcopall Professours are scandall'd and that justly For since in matters of doctrine t is famously known that there is no contest between Protestants of any Party either Episcopall Presbyterian or Independents 2. Netther in the externall Government of the Church