other Whether you have related the two former truly appeares by D. White the late Reverend L. Bishop of Ely his Relation or Exposition of them I was present at none but this Third of which I here give the Church an Account But of this Third whether that were the Cause which you alledge I cannot tell You say F. It was observed That in the second Conference all the Speech was about particular matters little or none about a continuall infallible visible Church which was the chiefe and onely Point in which a certaine Lady required satisfaction as having formerly setled in her minde That it was not for her or any other unlearned Persons to take up on them to judge of Particulars without depending upon the Iudgement of the true Church B. The Opinion of that Honourable Person in § 2 this was never opened to mee And it is very fit the people should looke to the Iudgement of the Church before they bee too busie with Particulars But yet neither a 1 Cor. 10. 15. Scripture nor any good Authority denies them some moderate use of their owne understanding and Iudgement especially in things familiar and evident which even b Quis non sine ullo Magistro aut interprete ex se facilè cognoscat c. Novat de Trin. c. 23. Et loquitur de Mysterio Passion is Christi Dijudicare est Mensurare c. Unde Mens dicitur a Metiendo Tho. p. 1. q. 79. A. 9. ad 4. To what end then is a m nde and an understanding given a Man if he may not apply it to measure Truth Et 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. ab eo quod confiderat discernit Quiadecernit inter verum falsum Damasc. l. 2. Fid. Orth. c. 22. And A. C. himselfe p. 41. denyes not all Iudgement to private men but sayes they are not so to relie absolutely upon their private Iudgement as to adventure salvation upon it alone or chiefly which no man will deny ordinary Capacities may as easily understand as reade And therefore some Particulars a Christian may judge without depending F. This Lady therefore having heard it granted in the first Conference That there must bee a continuall visible Company ever since Christ teaching unchanged Doctrine in all Fundamentall Points that is Poynts necessary to salvation desired to heare this confirmed and proofe brought which was that continuall infallible visible Church in which one may and out of which one cannot attaine salvation And therefore having appointed a time of Meeting betweene a B. and me and thereupon having sent for the B. and me before the B. came the Lady and a friend of hers came first to the roome where I was and debated before me the aforesaid Question and not doubting of the first part to wit That there must be a continuall visible Church as they had heard granted by D. White and L. K. c. B. What D. White and L. K. granted I heard § 3 not But I thinke both granted a continuall and a visible Church neither of them an infallible at least in your sense And your selfe in this Relation speake distractedly For in these few lines from the beginning hither twice you adde infallible betweene continuall and visible and twice you leave it out But this concernes D. W. and he hath answered it Here A. C. steps in and sayes The Iesuite did not speake distractedly but most advisedly For saith he A. C. p. 40. where he relates what D. White or L. K. granted hee leaves out the word Infallible because they granted it not But where he speakes of the Lady there he addes it because the Iesuite knew it was an infallible Church which she sought to rely upon How farre the Catholike Militant Church of Christ is infallible is no Dispute for this Place though you shall finde it after But sure the Iesuite did not speake most advisedly nor A. C. neither nor the Lady her selfe if she said she desired to relie upon an Infallible Church For an Infallible Church denotes a Particular Church in that it is set in opposition to some other Particular Church that is not infallible Now I for my part doe not know what that Lady desired to relie upon This I know if she desired such a Particular Church neither this Iesuite nor any other is able to shew it her No not Bellarmine himselfe though of very great ability to make good any Truth which he undertakes for the Church of Rome †Feritas vincat necesse est sive Negantem sive confitentem c. S. Aug. Epist. 174. Ocâ—…ultari potest ad tempus veritas vinci non potest S. Aug. in Psal. 61. But no strength can uphold an Error against Truth where Truth hath an able Defendant Now where Bellarmine sets himselfe purposely to make Lib. 4. De Rom. Pont. Cap. 4. §. 1. Romana particularis Ecclesta non potest errare in Fide this good That the Particular Church of Rome cannot erre in matter of Faith Out of which it followes That there may be found a Particular infallible Church you shall see what he is able to performe 1. First then after he hath Distinguished to expresse his meaning in what sense the Particular Church of Rome cannot erre in things which are de Fide of the Faith he tells us this Firmitude is because the Sea Apostolike is fixed there And this he saith is most true * Ibid. §. 2. And for proofe of it he brings three Fathers to justifie it 1. The first S. Cyprian a Navigare audent ad Petri Cathodram Ecclesiam principalem c. Nec cogitare eos esse Romanos ad quos Perfidia habere non potest accessum Cypr. l. 1. Ep. 3. whose words are That the Romanes are such as to whom Perfidia cannot have accesse Now Perfidia can hardly stand for Error in Faith or for Misbeliefe But it properly signifies malicious Falsehood in matter of Trust and Action not error in faith but in fact against the Discipline and Government of the Church And why may it not here have this meaning in S. Cyprian For the Story there it is this b Bin. Concil To. 1. p. 152. Edit Paris 1636. Baron Annal. an 253. 254. 255. In the Yeare 255. there was a Councell in Carthage in the cause of two Schismatiks Felicissimus and Novatian about restoring of them to the Communion of the Church which had lapsed in time of danger from Christianity to Idolatry Felicissimus would admit all even without penance and Novatian would admit none no not after penance The Fathers forty two in number went as the Truth led them between both Extreames To this Councell came Privatus a knowne Heretick but was not admitted because he was formerly Excommunicated and often condemned Hereupon he gathers his Complicies together and chooses one Fortunatus who was formerly condemned as well as himselfe Bishop of Carthage and set him up against S. Cyprian This done
wont to have more respect than so If His Majestie did say it there is Truth in the speech The error is yours only by mistaking what is meant by Loosing the Holy Ghost For a Particular Church may be said to loose the Holy Ghost two wayes or in two Degrees 1. The one when it looses such speciall assistance of that Blessed Spirit as preserves it from all dangerous Errors and sinnes and the temporall punishment which is due unto them And in this sense the Greeke Church did perhaps loose the Holy Ghost for they erred against Him they sinned against God And for this or other sinnes they were delivered into another Babylonish Captivity under the Turke in which they yet are and from which God in his mercy deliver them But this is rather to be called an Error circa Spiritum Sanctum about the Doctrine concerning the Holy Ghost then an error against the Holy Ghost 2. The other is when it looses not only this assistance but all assistance ad hoc to this that they may remaine any longer a true Church and so Corinth and Ephesus and divers other Churches have lost the Holy Ghost But in this sense the whole Greeke Church lost not the Holy Ghost For they continue a true Church in the maine substance to and at this day though erroneous in this Poynt which you mention and perhaps in some other too F. The Ladies friend not knowing what to answer called in the Bishop who sitting downe first excused himselfe as one unprovided and not much studied in Controversies and desiring that in Case he should faile yet the Protestant Cause might not be thought ill of B. This is most true For I did indeed excuse § 6 my selfe and I had great reason so to doe And my Reason being grounded upon Modestie for the most part there I leave it Yet this it may be fit others should know that I had no information where the other Conferences brake off no instruction at all what should be the ground of this third Conference nor the full time of foure and twenty hourâ—…s to bethinke my selfe And this I take upon my Credit is most true whereas you make the sifting of these and the like Questions to the very Branne your daily work and came throughly furnished to the businesse and might so leade on the Controversie to what your selfe pleased and I was to follow as I could * De util Credendi c. 2. S. Augustine said once Scio me invalidum esse I know I am weake and yet he made good his Cause And so perhaps may I against you And in that I prefer'd the Cause before my particular credit that which I did was with modesty and according to Reason For there is no Reason the waight of this whole Cause should rest upon any one particular man And great Reason that the personall Defects of any man should presse himselfe but not the Cause Neither did I enter upon this Service out of any forwardnesse of my owne but commanded to it by Supreame Authority F. It having an hundred better Schollers to maintaine it than he To which I said there were a thousand better Schollers than I to maintaine the Catholike Cause B. In this I had never so poore a Conceit of the Protestants Cause as to thinke that they had § 7 but an hundred better than my selfe to maintaine it That which hath an hundred may have as many more as it pleases God to give and more than you And I shall ever bee glad that the Church of England which at this time if my memory reflect not amisse I named may have farre more able Defendants than my selfe I shall never envie them but rejoyce for Her And I make no Question but that if I had named a thousand you would have multiplied yours into ten Thousand for the Catholike Cause as you call it And this Confidence of yours hath ever beene fuller of noyse than Proofe But you proceed F. Then the Question about the Greeke Church being proposed I said as before That it had erred B. Then I thinke the Question about the § 8 Greeke Church was proposed But after you had with confidence enough not spared to say That what I would not acknowledge in this Cause you would wring and extort from me then indeed you said as before that it had erred And this no man denied But every Errour denies not Christ the Foundation or makes Christ denie it or thrust it from the Foundation F. The Bishop said That the Errour was not in Point Fundamentall B. I was not so peremptory My speech § 9 was That diverse Learned men and some of your owne were of opinion That as the Greeks expressed themselves it was a Question not simply Fundamentall I know and acknowledge that Errour of denying the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne to be a grievous errour in Divinity And sure it would have grated the Foundation if they had so denied the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne as that they had made an inequality betweene the Persons But since their forme of speech is a Non ex Filio sed Spiritum Filii esse diâ—…imus Damascon L. 1. Fid. Orth. c. 11. Et Patris per filium Ibid. That the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father by the Sonne and is the Spirit of the Sonne without making any difference in the Consubstantiality of the Persons I dare not denie them to bee a true Church for this though I confesse them an Erroneous Church in this Particular Now that diverse learned men were of Opinion That à Filio per Filium in the sense of the Greeke Church was but a Question in modo loquendi in manner of b Pluralitas in Uoce salvat â unitate in re non repugnat uniâ—…ati Fidei Durand Lib. 3. d. 25. q. 2. speech and therefore not Fundamentall is evident c Magist. 1. Sent. d. 11. D. Sane sciendum est quòd licet in praesenti Articulo a nobis Graeci verbo discordent tamen sensu non differunt c. Bandinus L. 1. de Trin. d. 11 Bonavent in 1 Sent. d. 11. A. 1. q. 1. §. 12. Licet Graecis infensissimus quùm dixit Graeces objicere curiâ—…sitatem Romanis addendo I ilioque Quia sine hujus Articuli professione salus er at non Respondet negando salutem esse sed dicit tantùm opportunam fuisse Determinationem propter periculum Et postea §. 15. Sunt qui volunt sustinere opinionem Graecorum Latinorum distinguendo duplicem modum Procedendi Sed fortè si duo sapientes unus Graecus alter Latinus uterque verus amator Veritatis non propriae dictionis c. de hac visa contrarietate disquirerent pateret utique tandem ipsâ—…m Contrarietatem non esse veraciter realem sicut est Vocalis Scotus in 1. Sent. d. 11. q. 1. Antiquorum Graecorum à Latinis diserepantia in voce potiùs est modo
A RELATION OF The Conference BETWEENE WILLIAM LAWD Then L rd Bishop of S t. DAVIDS NOW Lord Arch-Bishop of CANTERBVRY And M r. Fisher the Jesuite by the Command of KING JAMES of ever Blessed Memorie VVith an Answer to such Exceptions as A. C. takes against it By the sayd Most Reverend Father in GOD WILLIAM Lord Arch-Bishop of CANTERBURY LONDON Printed by Richard Badger Printer to the PRINCE HIS HIGHNES MDCXXXIX TO HIS MOST Sacred Majesty CHARLES BY THE GRACE OF God King of Great Britaine France and Ireland Defender of the Faith c. DREAD SOVERAIGNE THIS Tract will need Patronage as great as may be had that 's Yours Yet when I first printed part of it I presumed not to aske any but thrust it out at the end of anothers Labours that it might seem at least to have the same Patron your Royall Father of Blessed Memory as the other Worke on which this attended had But now I humbly beg for it Your Majesties Patronage And leave withall that I may declare to Your most Excellent Majestie the Cause why this Tract was then written VVhy it stay'd so long before it looked upon the light Why it was not then thought fit to go alone but rather be led abroad by the former VVorke VVhy it comes now forth both with Alteration and Addition And why this Addition made not more haste to the Presse then it hath done The Cause why this Discourse was written was this I was at the time of these Conferences with Master Fisher Bishop of S. Davids And not onely directed but Commanded by my Blessed Master King Iames to this Conference with him He a May 24. 1622 when we met began with a great Protestation of seeking the Truth onely and that for it selfe And certainly Truth especially in Religion is so to be sought or not to be found He that seeks it with a Roman * One of these 〈◊〉 is an 〈◊〉 from all â—…ch Truth as fittes not our Ends. And â—…rsus à 〈…〉 c Bias or any * Aug. l. 2. cont 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Prophet And 't is an 〈◊〉 Transition for a man that 〈◊〉 Aversâ—… from 〈◊〉 become Ad. 〈…〉 to the â—…ruth Other will run Counter when he comes neare it and not finde it though he come within kenning of it And therefore I did most heartily wish I could have found the Iesuite upon that faire way he protested to go After the Conference ended I went whither my duty called me to my Diocesse not suspecting any thing should be made Publike that was both Commanded and acted in private For VV. I. the Publisher of the Relation of the first Conference with D. VVhite the late Reverend and learned Bishop of Ely b In his Epistle 〈◊〉 the Reader confesses plainly That Master Fisher was straightly charged upon his Allegiance from his Majesty that then was not to set out or Publish what passed in some of these Conferences till He gave Licence and untill M. Fisher and they might meet and agree and Confirme under their hands what was said on both sides He sayes farther that a Ibid. M. Fisher went to D. White 's house to know what he would say about the Relation which he had set out So then belike M. Fisher had set out the Relation of that Conference before he went to D. VVhite to speak about it And this notwithstanding the Kings restraint upon him upon his Allegiance Yet to D. VVhite 't is said he went but to what other End then to put a Scorne upon him I cannot see For he went to his house to know what he would say about that Relation of the Conference which he had set out before In my absence from London M. Fisher used me as well For with the same Care of his Allegiance and no more b These words were in my former Epistle And A. C. cheeks at them in defence of the Jesuite and sayes That the Jesuite did not at all so much as in Speech and much lesse in Papers publish thâ—… or either of the other two Conferences with Dr. White till he was forc'd unto it by false reports given out to his private disgrace and the prejudice of the Catholike Cause Nor then did he spread Papers abroad but onely delivered a very few Copies to speciall friends and this not with an intent to Calumniate the Bishop c. A. C. in his Preface before his Relation of this Conference Truly I knew of no Reports then given out to the prejudice of the Jesuite's either Person or Cause I was in a Corner of the Kingdome where I heard little But howsoever here 's a most plaine Confession by A. C. of that which he struggles to deny He sayes he did not spread Papers What then What Why he did but deliver Copies Why but doth not he that delivers Copies for Instance of a Libell spread it Yea but he delivered but a very few Copies Be it so I doe not say How many he spred He confesses the Iesuite delivered some though very few And he that delivers any spreads it abroad For what can he tell when the Copies are once out of his power how many may Copie them out and spread them farther Yea but he delivered them to speciall friends Be it so too The more speciall friends they were to him the lesse indifferent would they be to me perhaps my more speciall Enemies Yea but all this was without an intent to Calumniate me Well Be that so too But if I be Calumniated thereby his Intention will not helpe it And whether the Copies which he delivered have not in them Calumny against me I leave to the Indifferent Reader of this Discourse to Iudge hee spred abroad Papers of this Conference full enough of partiality to his Cause and more full of Calumny against me Hereupon I was in a manner forced to give M. Fisher's Relation of the Conference an Answer and to publish it Though for some Reasons and those then approved by Authority it was thought fit I should set it out in my Chaplain's Name R. B. and not in my owne To which I readily submitted There was a Cause also why at the first the Discourse upon this Conference stayed so long before it could endure to be pressed For the Conference was in May 1622. And M. Fisher's Paper was scattered and made common so common that a Copy was brought to mee being none of his speciall friends before Michaelmas And yet this Discourse was not printed till Aprill 1624. Now that you may know how this happened I shall say for my selfe It was not my Idlenesse nor my Unwillingnesse to right both my selfe and the Cause against the Jesuite and the Paper which he had spred that occasion'd this delay For I had then Most Honourable VVitnesses and have some yet living That this Discourse such as it was when A. C. nibled at it was finished long before I could perswade my selfe to let it come into Publike View
then A. C. tels us That Particular Churches must in A. C. p. 58. that Case as Irenaeus intimateth have recourse to the Church of Rome which hath more powerfull Principality and to †And after hee saith p. 58. that the Bishop of Rome is and ought to bee the Iudge of particular Churches in this Case her Bishop who is chiefe Pastour of the whole Church as being S. Peter's Successour to whom Christ promised the keyes S. Matth. 16. for whom he prayed that his Faith might not faile S. Luke 22. And whom he charged to seed and governe the whole Flocke S Iohn 21. And this A. C. tels us he shall never refuse to doe in such sort as that this neglect shall be a Iust Cause for any Particular Man or Church under Pretence of Reformation in Manners or Faith to make a Schisme or Separation from the Whole Generall Church Well first you see where A. C. would have us If any Particular Churches differ in Points of Divine Truth they must not Iudge or Condemne each other saith he No take heed of that in any case That 's the Office of the Universall Church And yet he will have it That Rome which is but a Particular Church must and ought Iudge all other Particulars Secondly he tels us this is so Because the Church of Rome hath more Powerfull Principality then other Particular Churches and that her Bishop is Pastour of the Whole Church To this I answer that it is most true indeed the Church of Rome hath had and hath yet more Powerfull Principality then any other Particular Church But she hath not this Power from Christ. The Romane Patriarch by Ecclesiasticall Constitutions might perhaps have a Primacy of Order But for Principality of Power the Patriarchs were as even as equall as the a Summa Potestas Ecclesiastica non est data solum Petro sedetiam aliis Apostolis Omnes enim poterant dicere illud S. Pauli Solicitu la omnium Ecclesiarum c. 2. Cor. 11. 28. Bellar. L. 1. de Rom. Pont. c. 9. §. Respondâ—… Pontificatum Where then is the difference betweene S. Peter and the rest In this saith Bellarmin Ibid. Quta hec Potestas data est Petro ut Ordinario Pastori cui perpetuo succederetur Aliis verò tanquà m Delegatis quibus non succederetur This is handsomely said to men easie of beliefe But that the Highest Power Ecclesiasticall confessed to be given to the other Apostle as well as to S. Peter was given to S. Peter onely as to an Ordinary Pastour whose Successours should have the same Power which the Successours of the rest should not have can never bee prooved out of Scripture Nay I will give them their own Latitude it can never be proved by any Tradition of the whole Catholike Church And till it be proved Bellarmines handsome Expression cannot be believed by me For S. Cyprian hath told me long since that Episcopatus Vnus est for as much as belongs to the Calling as well as Apostolatus L. de simp. Praelato Apostles were before them The Truth is this more Powerfull Principality the Romane Bishops b §. 25. Nu. 12. got under the Emperours after they became Christian and they used the matter so that they grew big enough to oppose nay to depose the Emperours by the same power which they had given them And after this other Particular Churches especially here in the West submitted themselves to them for succour and Protections sake And this was one maine Cause which swelled Rome into this more Powerfull Principality and not any Right given by Christ to make that c Lib. 1. de Rom. Pont. c. 9. §. Augustmu Epistola Prelate Pastour of the whole Church I know Bellarmine makes much adoe about it and will needs fetch it out of d S. Aug. Epist. 162. In Romaná Ecclesiâ—… emper Apostolicae Cathedrae viguit Principatas S. Augustine who sayes indeed That in the Church of Rome there did alwaies flourish the Principality of an Apostolicke Chaire Or if you will the Apostolicke Chaire in relation to the West and South parts of the Church all the other foure Apostolicke Chaires being in the East Now this no man denies that understands the state and story of the Church And e Quia Opinio invaluit fundâ—…tam esse hanc Ecclesiam à S. Petâ—… Jtaque in Occidente Sedes Apostolica Honoris 〈◊〉 Calv. L. 4. c. 6. §. 16. Calvin confesses it expresly Nor is the Word Principatus so great nor were the Bishops of those times so little as that Principes and Principatus are not commonly given them both by the a Princeps Ecclesiae S. H. lar 18. de Trin. Prin. And he speakes of a Biâ—…hop in generall Greg. Nazianz. Orat. 17. Ascribuntur Episcopo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Imperium Thronus Principatus ad regimâ—…n Aâ—…imarum Et 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hujusmodi Imperium And he also speaks of a Bishop Greg. Nazian Orat. 20. Nor were these any Titles of pride in Biâ—…hops then For S. Greg. Nazianz. who challenges these Titles to himselfe Orat. 17. was so devout so mild and so humble that rather then the Peace of the Church should be broken he freely resigned the Great Patriarchate of Constantinople and retired and this in the First Councell of Constantinople and the Second Generall Greeke and the Latine Fathers of this great and Learnedest Age of the Church made up of the fourth and fist hundred yeares alwaies understanding Principatus of their Spirituall Power and within the Limits of their severall Iurisdictions which perhaps now and then they did occasionally exceed And there is not one word in S. Augustine That this Principality of the Apostolike Chaire in the Church of Rome was then or ought to be now exercised over the whole Church of Christ as Bellarmine insinuates there and as A. C. would have it here And to prove that S Augustine did not intend by Principatus here to give the Romane Bishop any Power out of his owne Limits which God knowes were farre short of the whole Church I shall make it most manifest out of the very same Epistle For afterwards saith S. Augustine when the pertinacy of the Donatists could not be restrained by the African Bishops only b Pergant ad Fratres Collegas nostros transmarinarum Ecclesiarum Episcopos c. S. Aug. Ep 162. they gave them leave to be heard by forraigne Bishops And after that he hath these words c An fortè non debuit Romanae Ecclesiae Melciades Episcopus cum Collegis transmarinis Episcopis illud sibi usurpare judicium quod ab Afris septuaginta ubi Primas Tigisitanus praesedit fuerit terminaetum Quid quod nec ipse usurpâ—…vit Rogatus quippe Imperator Iudices misit Episcopos qui cum â—…o sederent de totâ illâ Causà quod justum videretur statuerent c. S. Aug. Ibid. And yet peradventure Melciades the Bishop of
of all doubt neither First because many Learned men have challenged many Popes for teaching Heresy and that 's against the true Faith And that which so many Learned Men have affirmed is not out of all doubt Or if it be why does Bellarmine take so much paines to confute and disproove them as †Bellar. L. 4. de Ro. Pont. c. 8. he doth Secondly because Christ obtained of his Father every thing that he prayed for if he prayed for it absolutely and not under a Condition Father I know thou hearest me alwayes S. Iohn 11. Now Christ here prayed absolutely for S. Peter Therefore whatsoever he S. Iohn 11. 42. asked for him was granted Therfore if Christ intended his Successors as well as himselfe his Prayer was granted for his Successors as well as for himselfe But then if Bellarmine will tell us absolutely as he doth * Donum hoc loco Petro impetratum etiam ad Successores pertinet Bel. L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 3. §. Quarto Donum hoc That the whole Gift obtained by this Prayer for S. Peter did belong to his Successors and then by and by after breake this Gift into two parts and call the first part into doubt whether it belongs to his Successors or no he cannot say the second part is out of all doubt For if there be reason of doubting the one there 's as much reason of doubting the other since they stand both on the same foot The Ualidity of Christ's Prayer for Saint Peter Yea but Christ charged S. Peter to governe and feede his whole flocke S. Iohn 21. Nay soft 'T is but his Sheepe S. Iohn 21. 15. and his Lambes and that every Apostle and every Apostles Successor hath charge to doc * Mat. 28. 29 S. Mat. 10. 17. The same power and charge is gâ—…en to them al. A. C. p. 58. S. Matth. 28. But over the whole Flocke 〈◊〉 find no one Apostle or Successor set And 't is a poore shift to say as A C doth That the Bishop of Rome is set over the whole Flocke because both over Lambes and Sheep For in every flock that is not of barren Weathers there are Lamâ—…s and Sheepe that is †And this seemes to me to allâ—…de to that of S. Paul 1 Corinth 3 2. and Heb. 5. 12. Some are sed with milke and some with stronger meat The Lambes with milke and the Sheepe with stronger meate But here A. C. followes Pope Hildebrand close who in the Case of the Emperor then asked this Question Quando Christus Ecclesiam suam Petro commisit dixit Pasce Oves meas excepitne Reges Plat. in vita Greg 7. And certainly Kings are not exempted from being fed by the Church But from being spoyled of their Kingdomes by any Church-men that they are weaker and stronger Christians not People and Pastors Subjects and Governouâ—…s as A. C. expounds it to bring the Necks of Princâ—…s under Romane Pride And if Kings bee meant yet then the command is Pasce feed them But Deponere or Occiure to depose or kill them is not Pascere in any sense Lanii id est non Pastori that 's the Butchers not the Shepheards part If a Sheep go astray never so far 't is not the Shepheards part to kill him at least if he doe non pascit dum occidit he doth not certainly feede while he killes And for the Close That the Bishop of Rome shall never refuse to feed and governe the whole stock in such sort as A. C. p. 58. that neither particular Man nor Church shall 〈◊〉 just Cause under pâ—…etence of Reformation in Manners or Faith to make a Sâ—…paration from the whole Church By A. C s. favour this is meere begging of the Question He sayes the Pope shall ever governe the Whole Church so as that there shall be no just Cause given of a Separation And that is the very Thing which the Protestants charge upon him Namely that he hath governed if notthe Whole yet so much of the Church as he hath beene able to bring under his Power so as that he hath given too just Cause of the present continued separation And as the Corruptions in the Doctrine of Faith in the Church of Rome were the Cause of the first Separation so are they at this present day the Cause why the separation continues And further I for my part am cleare of Opinion that the Errours in the Doctrine of Faith which are charged upon the whole Church at least so much of the whole as in these parts of Europe hath beene kept under the Romane Iurisdiction have had their Originall and Continuance from this that so much of the Vniversall Church which indeed they account All hath forgotten her owne Liberty and submitted to the Romane Church and Bishop and so is in a manner forced to embrace all the Corruptions which the Particular Church of Rome hath contracted upon itself And being now not able to free her selfe from the Romane Iurisdiction is made to continue also in all her Corruptions And for the Protestants they have made no separation from the Generall Church properly so called for therein A. C. said well the Popes Administration can give no Cause to separate from that but A. C. p. 58. their Separation is only from the Church of Rome and such other Churches as by adhering to her have hazarded themselves and do now miscall themselves the Whole Catholike Church Nay even here the Protestants have not left the Church of Rome in her Essence but in her Errours not in the Things which Constitute a Church but only in such Abuses and Corruptions as work toward the Dissolution of a Church F. I also asked who ought to judge in this Case The B. said a Generall Councell B. And surely What greater or surer Iudgement you can have where sense of Scripture is doubted § 26 then a Generall Councell I doe not see Nor doe you doubt And A. C. grants it to be a most Competent A. C. p. 59. Iudge of all Controversies of Faith so that all Pastors be gathered together and in the Name of Christ and pray unanimously for the promised assistance of the Holy Ghost and make great and diligent search and examination of the Scriptures and other Grounds of Faith And then Decree what is to bee held for Divine Truth For then saith he 't is Firme and Insallible or els there is nothing firm upon earth As faire as this Passage seems and as freely as I have granted that a Generall Councell is the best Judge on earth where the sense of Scripture is doubted yet even in this passage there are some things Considerable As first when shall the Church hope for such a Generall Councell in which all Pastors shall be gathered together there was never any such Generall Councell yet nor doe I believe such can be had So that 's supposed in vaine and you might have learn'd this of *
And this was caused partly by my owne Backwardnesse to deale with these men whom I have ever observed to be great Pretenders for Truth and Unity but yet such as will admit neither unlesse They and their Faction may prevaile in all As if no Reformation had beene necessary And partly because there were about the same time three Conferences held with Fisher. Of these this was the Third And could not therefore conveniently come abroad into the world till the two former were ready to leade the way which till that time they were not And this is in part the Reason also why this Tract crept into the end of a larger Worke. For since that Worke contained in a manner the substance of all that passed in the two former Conferences And that this Third in divers points concurred with them and depended on them I could not thinke it Substantive enough to stand alone But besides this Affinity betweene the Conferences I was willing to have it passe as silently as it might at the end of another Worke and so perhaps little to be looked after because I could not hold it worthy nor can I yet of that Great Duty and Service which I owe to my Deare Mother the Church of England There is a cause also why it lookes now abroad againe with Alteration and Addition And 't is fit I should give your Majesty an Account of that too This Tract was first printed in the yeare 1624. And in the yeare 1626. another Jesuite or the same under the name of A. C. printed a Relation of this Conference and therein tooke Exceptions to some Particulars and endeavoured to Confute some Things deliver'd therein by me Now being in yeares and unwilling to dye in the Jesuites debt I have in this Second Edition done as much for him and somewhat more For he did but skip up and downe and labour to pick a hole here and there where he thought he might fasten and where it was too hard for him let it alone But I have gone thorough with him And I hope given him a full Confutation or at least such a Bone to gnaw as may shake his teeth if he looke not to it And of my Addition to this Discourse this is the Cause But of my Alteration of some things in it this A. C. his Curiosity to winnow me made me in a more curious manner fall to sifting of my selfe and that which had formerly past my Penne. And though I blesse God for it I found no cause to alter anything that belonged either to the Substance or Course of the Conference Yet somewhat I did finde which needed better and cleerer expression And that I have altered well knowing I must expect Curious Observers on all hands Now Why this Additionall Answer to the Relation of A. C. came no sooner forth hath a Cause too and I shall truly represent it A. C. his Relation of the Conference was set out 1626. I knew not of it in some yeares after For it was printed among divers other things of like nature either by M. Fisher himselfe or his friend A. C. When I saw it I read it over carefully and found myselfe not a little wrong'd in it but the Church of England and indeed the Cause of Religion much more I was before this time by Your Majesties Great Grace and undeserved favour made Deane of Your Majesties Chappell Royall and a Counsellor of State and hereby as the Occasions of those times were made too much a Stranger to my Bookes Yet for all my Busie Imployments it was still in my Thoughts to give A. C. an Answer But then I fell into a most dangerous Feaver And though it pleased God beyond all hope to restore mee to health yet long I was before I recover'd such strength as might enable mee to undertake such a Service And since that time how I have beene detained and in a manner forced upon other many various and Great Occasions your Majesty knowes best And how of late I have beene used by the Scandalous and Scurrilous Pennes of some bitter men whom I heartily beseech God to forgive the world knowes Little Leasure and lesse Encouragement given me to Answer a Iesuite or set upon other Services while I am under the Prophets affliction Psal. Psal. 50. 19 20 50. betweene the Mouth that speakes wickednesse and the tongue that sets forth deceite and slander mee as thicke as if I were not their owne Mothers Sonne In the midst of these Libellous out-cries against me some Divines of great Note and Worth in the Church came to mee One by One and no One knowing of the Others Comming as to mee they protested and perswaded with me to Reprint this Conference in my owne Name This they thought would vindicate my Reputation were it generally knowne to be mine I Confesse I looked round about these Men and their Motion And at last my Thoughts working much upon themselves I began to perswade my selfe that I had beene too long diverted from this necessary Worke. And that perhaps there might be In voce hominum Tuba Dei in the still voice of men the Loud Trumpet of God which sounds many wayes sometimes to the eares and sometimes to the hearts of men and by meanes which they thinke not of And as * S. Aug. Serm. 63. De Diversis c. 10. Hee speakes of Christ disputing in the Temple with the Elders of the Iewes And they heard Christ the Essentiall Word of the Father with admiration to astonishment yetbeleeved him not S. Luk. 2. 47. And the Word theâ—… spake to them by a meanes they thought not of namely per Filium Dei in pucro by the Sonne of God himselfe under the Vaile of our humane nature S. Augustine speakes A Word of God there is Quod nunquam tacet sed non semper auditur which though it be never silent yet is not alwayes heard That it is never silent is his great Mercy and that it is not alwayes heard is not the least of our Misery Vpon this Motion I tooke time to deliberate And had scarce time for that much lesse for the Worke. Yet at last to every of these men I gave this Answer That M. Fisher or A. C. for him had beene busie with my former Discourse and that I would never reprint that unlesse I might gaine time enough to Answer that which A. C. had charged a fresh both upon mee and the Cause While my Thoughts were thus at worke Your Majesty fell upon the same Thing and was graciously pleased not to Command but to VVish me to reprint this Conference and in mine own Name And this openly at the Councel-Table in Michaelmas-Terme 1637. I did not hold it fit to deny having in all the Course of my service obayed your Majesties Honourable and Just Motions as Commands But Craved leave to shew what little leasure I had to doe it and what Inconveniences might attend upon it When this did not serve to excuse
that give just Cause to continue a Separation But for free-hearings or safe Conducts I have said enough till that Church doe not only say bnt doe otherwise And as for Truth and Peace they are in every mans mouth with you and with us But lay they but halfe so close to the hearts of men as they are common on their tongues it would soone be better with Christendome then at this day it is or is like to be And for the Protestants in generall I hope they seeke both Truth and Peace sincerely The Church of England I am sure doth and hath taught me to †Beseeching God to inspire continually the Vniversall Church with the Spirit of truth unity and concord c. In the Prayer for the Militant Church And in the third Collect on Good-friday pray for both as I most heartily doe But what Rome doth in this if the world will not see I will not Censure And for that which A. C. addes That such a free hearing is more then ever the English Catholikes could obtaine A. C. p. 57. though they have often offered and desired it and that but under the Princes word And that no Answer hath nor no good Answer can be given And he cites Campian for it How farre or how often this hath beene asked by the English Rommists I cannot tell nor what Answer hath beene given them But surely Campian was too bold and so is A. C. too to say * Campian praefat Rationsbut praefixà Honestum responsum nullum no good Answer can be given For this I thinke is a very good Answer That the Kings and the Church of England had no Reason to admit of a Publike Dispute with the English Romish Clergie till they shall be able to shew it under the Seale or Powers of Rome That that Church will submit to a Third who may be an Indifferent Iudge betweene us and them or to such a Generall Councell as is after * §. 26. Nu. 1. mentioned And this is an Honest and I thinke a full Answer And without this all Disputation must end in Clamour And therefore the more publike the worse Because as the Clamour is the greater so perhaps will be the Schisme too F. Moreover he said he would ingenuously acknowledge That the Corruption of Manners in the Romish Church was not a sufficient Cause to justifie their Departing from it B. I would I could say you did as ingenuously repeat § 22 as I did Confesse For I never said That Corruption of Manners was or was not a sufficient Cause to justifie their Departure How could I say this since I did not grant that they did Depart otherwise then is * §. 21. N. 6. before expressed There is difference between Departure and causelâ—…sse Thrusting from you For out of the Church is not in your Power God bee thanked to thrust us Think on that And so much I said expresly then That which I did ingenuously confesse was this That Corruption in Manners only is no sufficient Cause to make a Separation in the Church a Modò ea qùae ad CathedraÌ„ pertinent recta praecipiant S. Hier. Ep. 236. Nor is it It is a Truth agreed on by the Fathers and received by Divines of all sorts save by the Cathari to whom the Donatist and the Anabaptist after accorded And against whom b L. 4. Instit. c. 1. §. 13. c. Ep. 48. A malis piscibus corde semper moribus seâ—…arantur c. Corporalem separationem in â—…tore maris hoc est in fine saculi expectant Calvin disputes it strongly And S. Augustine is plaine There are bad fish in the Net of the Lord from which there must be ever a Separation in heart and in manners but a corporali 〈◊〉 must be expected at the Sea shore that is the end of the world And the best fish that are must not teare and breake the Net because the bad are with them And this is as ingenuously Confessed for you as by me For if Corruption in Manners were a just Cause of Actuall Separation of one Church from another in that Catholike Body of Christ the Church of Rome hath given as great cause as any since as * Uix ullum peccatum solâ—… Haeresi exceptá câ—…gitari potest quo illa Sedes â—…urpiter maculata non fucrit maxime ab An 8â—…0 Relect Cont. 1. q. 5. Art 3. Stapleton grants there is scarce any sinne that can be thought by man Heresie only excepted with which that Sea hath not been fouly stained especially from eight hundred yeares after Christ. And he need not except Haeresie into which a Biel in Can. Miss Lect. 23. Biel grants it possible the Bishops of that Sea may fall And †Stel. in S. Luc. c 22 Almain in 3. Sent. d. 24. q. 1 fine Multae sunt Decretales haereticae c. And so they erred as Popes Stella and Almaine gâ—…ant it freely that some of them did fall and so ceased to be Heads of the Church and left Christ God be thanked at that time of his Vicars defection to looke to his Cure himselfe F. But saith he beside Corruption of Manners there were also Errors in Doctrine B. This I spake indeed And can you prove that § 23 I spake not true in this But I added though here againe you are pleased to omit it That some of the errors of the Roman Church were dangerous to salvation For it is not every light Eâ—…ror in Disputable Doctrine and Points of curious Speculation that can bee a just Cause of Separation in that Admirable Body of Christ which is his * Eph. 1. 23. Church or of one Member of it from another For hee gave his Naturall Body to bee rent and torne upon the Crosse that his Mysticall Body might be One. And S. †S. Aug. Ep. 50. Et iterum Colum ba non sunt qui EcclesiaÌ„ dissipant Accipitres sunt Milvi sunt Non laniat Columba c. S. Aug. tract 5. in S. Iohn Augustine inferres upon it That â—…e is no way partaker of Divine Charity that is an enemie to this Vnity Now what Errors in Doctrine may give just Cause of Separation in this Body or the Parts of it one from another were it never so easie to determine as I thinke it is most difficult I would not venture to set it downe in particular least in these times of Discord I might bee thought to open a Doore for Schisme which surely I will never doe unlesse it be to let it out But that there are Errors in Doctrine and some of them such as most manifestly endanger salvation in the Church of Rome is evident to them that will not shut their Eyes The proofe whereof runnes through the Particular Points that are betweene us and so is too long for this Discourse Now here A. C. would faine have a Reason given him Why I did endeavour A. C. p. 55. to shew what Cause
the Romane Church with his Colleagues the Transmarine Bishops non debuit ought not usurpe to himselfe this Iudgment which was determined by seventy African Bishops Tigisitanus sitting Primate â—…nd what will you say if he did not usurpe this Power For the Emperour being desired sent Bishops Iudges which should sit with him and determine what was just upon the whole Cause In which Passage there are very many things Observeable As first that the Romane Prelate came not in till there was leave for them to go to Transmarine Bishops Secondly that if the Pope had come in without this Leave it had been an Usurpation Thirdly that when he did thus come in not by his owne Proper Authority but by Leave there were other Bishops made Iudges with him Fourthly that these other Bishops were appointed and sent by the Emperour and his Power that which the Pope will least of all indure Lastly least the Pope and his Adherents should say this was an Usurpation in the Emperour * Ad cujus Cuvanâ—…ds quâ rationem Deo redditurus est res illa maximè pertinebat S. Aug. Epist 162. S. Augustine tels us a little before in the same Epistle still that this doth chiefly belong ad Curam ejus to the Emperours Care and charge and that He is to give an Account to God for it And Melciades did sit and Iudge the Businesse with all Christian Prudence and Moderation So at this time the Romane Prelate was not received as Pastour of the whole Church say A. C. what he please Nor had he any Supremacy over the other Patriarchs And for this were all other Records of Antiquity silent the Civill Law is proofe enough And that 's a Monument of the Primitive Church The Text there is †Nam contra horum Antistitum de Patriarchis loquitur Sententias non esse locum Appellationi à Majoribus nostris â—…itutum est â—…od L 1. Tit. 4. L. 29. ex â—…ditions Gothofredi Si non rata habuerit â—…traque Pars qua judicata sunt tunc Beatissimns Patriarcha Dioceseôs illius â—…ter eos audiat c. Nullâ parte ejus Sententiae contradicere valente Authen Coâ—…at 9. Tit. 15. C. 22. A Patriarchâ non datur Appellatio From a Patriarch there lies no Appeale No Appeale Therefore every Patriarch was alike Supreme in his owne Patriarchate Therefore the Pope then had no Supremacie over the whole Church Therefore certainely not then received as Universall Pastour And S. Gregory himselfe speaking of Appeales and expresly citing the Lawes themselves sayes plainly * Et ille scilicet Patriarcha secundum Canones Leges prâ—…bent finem And there hee cites the Novell its selfe S. Greg. L. 11. Judict 6. Epist. 54. That the Patriarch is to put a finall end to those Causes which come before him by Appeale from Bishops and Archbishops but then he adds a Si dictum fuâ—…it quòd nec Metropolitanum habeat nec Patriarcham dicendum est quòd à Sede Apostolicâ quae omnium Ecclesiarum Caput est causa andienda est c. S. Greg. Ibid. That where there is nor Metropolitan nor Patriarch of that Diocesse there they are to have recourse to the Sea Apostolike as being the Head of all Churches Where first this implies plainely That if there bee a Metropolitan or a Patriarch in those Churches his Iudgement is finall and there ought to be no Appeale to Rome Secondly 'T is as plaine That in those Ancient times of the Church-Government Britaine was never subject to the Sea of Rome For it was one of the b Notitia Provinciarum Occidentalium per Guidum Pancirolum l. 2. c. 48. Sixe Diocesses of the West Empire and had a Primate of its owne Nay c Hunc cunctis Liberalium Artium disciplinis eruditum pro Magistro teneamus quasi Comparem velut alterius Orbis Apostolicum Patriarcham c. Io. Capgravius de Vitis Sanctorum in vitâ S. Anselmi Et Guil. Malmesburiens de Gestis Pontificum Anglorum p. 223. Edit Francof 1601. Iohn Capgrave one of your owne and Learned for those times and long before him William of Malmesburie tell us That Pope Urbane the second at the Councell held at Bari in Apulia accounted my Worthy Predecessour S. Anselme as his owne Compeere and said he was as the Apostolike and Patriarch of the other world So he then termed this Iland Now the Britains having a Primate of their owne which is greater then a Metropolitan yea a d Ibi Cantuariae id est prima Sedes Archiepiscopi habetur qui est totius Anglia Primas Patriarcha Guil. Malmesburiensis in Prolog Lib. 1. de Gestis Pontificum Anglorum p. 195. Patriarch if you will He could not be Appealed from to Rome by S. Gregorie's owne Doctrine Thirdly it will be hard for any man to proove there were any Churches then in the World which were not under some either Patriarch or Metropolitane Fourthly if any such were 't is gratis dictum and impossible to be proved that all such Churches where ever seated in the world were obliged to depend on Rome For manifest it is that the Bishops which were Ordained in places without the Limits of the Romane Empire which places they commonly called * praterea qui sunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Baâ—…barico Episcopi à Sanctissimo Throno Sanctissima Constantinopolitanae Ecclesia Ordinentur Codex Canonum Ecclesia universae Can. 206. And Iustellus proves it there at large that by in Barbarico in that Canon is meant In Solo Barbarorum Annot. Ibid. Barbarous were all to be Ordained and therefore most probable to be governed by the Patriarch of Constantinople And for Rome's being the Head of all Churches I have said enough to that in diverse parts of this Discourse And since I am thus fallen upon the Church of Africk I shall borrow another reason from the Practice of that Church why by Principatus S. Augustine neither did nor could meane any Principality of the Church or Bishop of Rome over the Whole Church of Christ. For as the Acts of Councels and Stories go the African Prelates finding that all succeeding Popes were not of Melciades his temper set themselves to assert their owne Liberties and held it out stoutly against Zozimus Boniface the first and Caelestine the first who were successively Popes of Rome At last it was concluded in the sixt Councell of Carthage wherein were assembled two hundred and seventeene Bishops of which S. Augustine himselfe was one that they would not give way to such a manifest incroachment upon their Rights and Liberties and thereupon gave present notice to Pope Coelestine to forbeare sending his Officers amongst them †Ne fâ—…mosum typhum seculi in Ecclesiam Christi videatur inducere c. Epist Conc. Afric ad Papam Coelestinum primum Apud Nicolin To. 1. Concil p. 844. least he should seeme to induce the swelling pride of the world into
Ecclestam rumperet Nam Alexandriae à Marco Evangelista â—…resbyteri semper unum ex seclectum in excellenttori gradu col ocatum Episcopum nominabant c. S. Hieron in Epist. ad Evagrium So even according to S. Hieroâ—… Bishops had a very ancient and honourable descent in the Church from S. Marke the Euangelist And about the end of the same Epistle he acknowledges it Traditionem esse Apostolicam Nay mo e then so He afhimes plainly That Vli non est Saccrdos non est Ecclesia S. Hiéron advers Luciferian And in that place most manifelt iâ—… is that S. Icrom by Sacerdos means a Bishop For he speaks de Sacerdote qui potestatem habet Ordinandi which in S. Ienomes owne Iudgement no meere Priest had but a Bishop only S. Hier. Epist à d Evagrium So even with him no Bishop and no Church S. Ierome tels us Though being none himselfe hee was no great friend to Bishops And this was so setled in the mindes of men from the very Infancy of the Christian Church as that it had not been to that time contradicted by any So that then there was no Controversie about the Calling all agreed upon that The only Difficulty was to accommodate the Places and Precedencies of Bishops among themselves for the very Necessity of Order and Government To doe this the most equall and impartiall way was That as the Church is in the Common-wealth not the Common-wealth in it as * Non â—…nim Respub est in Ecclesià sed Ecclesia in Repub. Optat. L. 3. Optatus telles us So the Honours of the Church should a Conc. Calced Can. 9. Actio 16. follow the Hon urs of the State And so it was insinuated if not Ordered as appeares by the Canons of the Councels of Chalcedon and Antioch And this was the very fountaine of Papall Greatnesse the Pope having his Residence in the great Imperiall City But Precedency is one thing and Authority is another It was thought fit therefore though as b S. Cyprian L. de Simp Pralat S. Cyprian speakes Episcopatus unus est the Calling of a Bishop be one and the same that yet among Bishops there should be a certaine Subordination and Subjection The Empire therefore being cast into severall Divisions which they then called Diocesses every Diocesse contained severall Provinces every Province severall Bishopricks The Chiefe of a Dioc sse in that larger sense was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and sometimes a Patriarch The Chiefe of a Province a Metropolitane Next the Bishops in their severall Diocesses as we now use that word Among These there was effectuall subjection respectively grounded upon Canon and Positive Law in their severall Quarters But over them none at all All the Difference there was but Honorary not Autoritative If the Ambition of some particular persons did attempt now and then to breake these Bounds it is no marvel For no Calling can sanctifie all that have it And Socrates tâ—…lles us That in this way the Bishops of Alexandria and Rome advanced themselves to a great height 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 even beyond the quality of Bishops Now upon view of Story it will appeare that what advantage accrewed to Alexandria was gotten by the violence of Theophilus Patriarch there A man of exceeding great Learning and of no lesse violence and he made no little advantage out of this That the Empresse â—…udoxia used his helpe for the casting of S. Chrylostome out of Constantinople But the Roman Prelates grew by a steddy and constant watch fulnesse upon all Occasions to increase the Honour of that Sea Interposing and * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ut alunt sivese jaclat esse Greg. Naz. Carm. de vitasua p. 26. assuming to themselves to be Uindices Canonum as S. Gregory Naz. speaks Defenders and Restorers of the Canons of the Church which was a faire pretence and took extremely well But yet the world tooke notice of this their aime For in all Contestations between the East and the West w ch were nor smal nor few the Western Bishops objected Levity to the Eastern And they again Arrogancy to the Bishops of the West as †Orientalibut levitas Occidet alibus arrogantia invicem objecta est Bilius Annot in S. Gregor Naz. Vitam Na. 153. Quid oput est Occidentali superciliolex SaÌ„cto Basil. c. Bilius observes and upon very warrantable testimonies For all this the Bishop of Rome continued in good Obedience to the Emperor enduring his Censures and Iudgements And being chosen by the Clergy and People of Rome he accepted from the Emperor the Ratification of that choise Insomuch that about the yeare 579. when all Italy was on fire with the Lombards and * Hac una suit causa quare l'elagius injussu Principis Pontisex creatus sit quùm extra obsessam ab hoste vrbeÌ„ mitti quispiaÌ„ non posset c. Postea itaque ad placandum ImperatoreÌ„ Gregorius Diaconus c. Platina in vitâ Pelagii 2. Onuph ibid. Pelagius the second constrained through the necessity of the times contrary to the Example of his Predecessors to entere upon the Popedome without the Emperors leave S. Gregory then a Deacon was shortly after sent on Embassie to excuse it About this time brake out the Ambition of †Onuph In Plat. in viâ—…a Bonif. 3. Iohn Patriarch of Constantinople affecting to be Vniversall Bishop He was countenanced in this by Mauricius the Emperor but sowerly opposed by Pelagius and S. Gregory Insomuch that S. Gregory saies plainly That this Pride of a In hac ejus superbia quid aliud nisi propinqua jam â—…ntichristi esse tempora designatur S. Greg. L. 4. Epist. 78. his shewes that the times of Antichrist were neare So as yet and this was now upon the point of six hundred yeares after Christ there was no Vniversall Bishop No One Monarch over the whole Militant Church But Mauricius being deposed and murthered by Phocas Phocas conferred upon †It may be they will say S. Gregory did not inveigh against the Thing but the Person That John of Constantinople should take that upon him which belonged to the Pope But it is manifest by S. Gregories owne text that he speakes against the Thing it self that neither the Bishop of Rome nor any other ought to take on him that Title Cura totius Ecclesia Principatus S. Petro committitur tamen Vniversalis Apostolus non vocatur S. Greg. L. 4. Epist. 76. Therefore neither is his successor Vniversall Bishop Nunquid ego hac in re propriam causam defendo nunquid specialem injuriam Uindico non magis causam Omnipotentis Dei Vniversalis Ecclesiae where he plainly denyes that he speaks in his owne Cause or in the Cause of his Sea Per Venerandam Chalcedonensem Synodum hoc Nomen RoÌ„ Pontifici oblatum est sed nullus eorum unquam hoc singularitatis Uocabulum assumpsit nec uti consensit
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c S. Auâ—… â—…pist 119 c. 6. S. Augustine tels us That the Militant Church is often in Scripture called the Moone both for the many Changes it hath and for its obscurity in many times of its peregrination And hee tels us too That if we will understand this place of Scripture in a Spirituall Sense a Intelligimus spiritualiter Ecclesiam c. Et hic â—…uis est Sol nisi Sol lustitsâ—… c. S. Aug. in Psal. 103. Our Saviour Christ is the Sun and the Militant Church as being full of changes in her estate the Moone But now it must bee a Triumphant Church here Militant no longer The Pope must be the Sun and the Emperor but the Moone And least Innocents owne power should not be able to make good his Decretall b â—…p â—…op L. dicto E clesiaâ—…us c. 145. Gasper Schioppius doth not onely avow the Allusion or Interpretation but is pleased to expresse many Circumstances in which hee would faine make the world believe the Resemblance holds And lest any man should not know how much the Pope is made greater then the Emperour by this Comparison the c Igitur cùm terra sit septies major Lunâ Sol autem octies major terra restat ergo ut Fontificalis dignitas quadragesies septics sit major Realidignitate Gloss. in Decret praedict Where first the Glosse is out in his Latine Hee might have said Quadragies for Quadragesies is no word next he is out in his Arithmetick For eight times seven makes not forty seven but fifty sixe And then he is much to blame for drawing downe the Pope's power from fifty six to 47. And lastly this Allusion hath no ground of Truth at all For the Emperour being Solo Deo minor Tertul. ad Scap. cannot be a Moone to any other Sun Glosse furnishes us with that too and tels us that by this it appeares that since the Earth is seven times greater then the Moone and the Sun eight times greater then the Earth it must needs follow that the Pope's power is forty seven times greater then the Emperour 's I like him well he will make odds enough But what doth Innocent the third give no Reason of this his Decretall Yes And it is saith he d Sed illa Potestas quae praeest diebus i. e. in spiritualibus major est quae verò Carnaâ—…ibus miâ—…or Inn cent 3. ubi supra because the Sun which rules in the day that is in Spirituall things is greater then the Moone which rules but in the night and in carnall things But is it possible that Innocentius the third being 〈◊〉 wise and so able as e â—…t post ejus mortem nihil eorum quae in hac vita egerit laudaverit aut inprobaverit immâ—…um sit Platina in vita 〈◊〉 that nothing which he did or commended or disproved in all his life should after his death be thought fit to bee changed could thinke that such an Allusion of Spirituall things to the Day which the Sun governes and Worldly Businesse to the Night which the Moone governes should carie waight enough with it to depresse Imperiall power lower then God hath made it Out of doubt he could not For he well knew that Omnis Anima every soule was to be Rom. 13. 1. subject to the Higher Power Rom. 13. And the †Patres veteres praecipâ—… Aug. Epist. 54. Apostolum interpretantur de Potestate seculari tantum loqui quod ipse Textus subindicat c. Salmer on Disput. 4. in Rom. 13. §. Porrò per Potestatem Higher Power there mentioned is the Temporall And the * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Omnibus ista imperantur Sacerdotibus Monachis c. Et postea Etiamsi Apostolus sis fi Evangelista si Propheta sive quisquis tandem fueris S. Chrysost. Hom. 23. in Rom. Sive est Sacerdos sive Antistes c. Theodoret in Rom. 13. Si omnis Anima vestra Quis vos excipit ab Universitate c. Ipsi sunt qui vobis dicere solent servate vestrae Sedis honorem c. Sed Christus aliter Iussâ—… Gâ—…ssit c. S. B. r. Epist. 42. ad Henricum Senonensem Archiepiscopum Et Theophilact in Rom. 13. Where it is very observable that Theophilact lived in the time of Pope Gregory the seventh And S. Bernard after it and yet this Truth obtained then And this was about the yeare 1130. Ancient Fathers come in with a full consent That Omnis Animâ—… every soule comprehends there all without any Exception All Spirituall men even to the Highest Bishop and in spirituall Causes too so the Foundations of Faith and Good Manners bee not shaken And where they are shaken there ought to bee Prayer and Patience there ought not to be Opposition by force Nay hee knew well that a An fortè de Religione fas non est ut dicat Imperator vel quos miserit Imperator cur ergo ad Imperatorem vestri venâ—…re Legati cur enim fecerunt Causae suae Iudicem non secuturi quod ille judicaret c. S. Aug. L. 1. cont Epist. Parmen c. 9. Et quaestio fuit au pertineret ad Imperatorem advâ—… eos aliquid statuere qui prava in Religione sectantur Ibid Nor can this be said to be usurpation in the Emperor Nam S. August alibi sic Ad Imperatoris curâ—…m de quâ rationem Deo redditurus est Res â—…lla maximè pâ—…rtinebat S. Aug. Epist. 162. Epist. 50. Quis mente sobrius Regibus dicat Nolite cuâ—…are in Regno vestro à quo teneatur vet oppugnetur Ecclesia Domini vestri c. Antiqui 〈◊〉 rectè dixit Magistratus est custos legis silicet primae secundae Tabulae quod ad disciplinam attinet Confessio Saxonica §. 23. Gerardus To. 6. Locorum c. 6. § 5. Membro 1. probat ex Deut. 17. 18. Emperors and Kings are Custodes utriusque Tabulae They to whom the custody and preservation of both Tables of the Law for worship to God and duty to man are committed That a Booke of the Law was by Gods owne Command in Moses his time to bee given the King b Deut. 17. 18 Deut. 17. That the Kings under that Law but still according to it did proceed to Necessary Reformations in Church Businesses and therein Commanded the very Priests themselves as appeares in the Acts of * â—…ron 29. 4. Hezechiah and †4. Râ—… 23. 2. Iosiah who yet were never Censured to this day for usurping the High Priests Office Nay hee knew full well That the greatest Emperors for the Churches Honour Theodosius the Elder and Iustinian and Charles the Great and divers other did not only meddle now and then but did inact Lawes to the great Settlement and Increase of Religion in their severall times But then if this could not be the Reason why Innocentius made this strange
appeares though somewhat may be done by the Bishops and Governours of the Church to preserve the unity and certainty of Faith and to keepe the Church from renting or for uniting it when it is rent yet that in the ordinary way which the Church hath hitherto kept some things there are and upon great emergent Occasions may be which can have no other helpe then a lawfull fre and well composed Generall Councell And when that cannot be had the Church must pray that it may and expect till it may or else reforme its selfe per partes by Nationall or Provinciall Synods as hath beene said a §. 24. N. 1. before And in the meane time it little beseemes A. C. or any Christian to check at the wisdome of †And shall we think that Christ the wisest king hath not provided c. A. C. p. 60. Where I cannot commend either A. C. his Modesty that he doth not or his cunning that he will not go so 〈◊〉 as some have done before him though in these words shall we think c hee goes too farre Non videretur Dominus discretus fuisse ut cum reverentiá ejus loquar nisi unicum post se talem Vicarium reliquisset qui haec omnia potest Fuit autem ejus Vicarius Petrus Et idem dicendum est de Successoribus Petri cum cadem absurditas sequeretur si post mortem Petâ—…i Humanam Naturam à se creatam sine regimine Vnius Personae reliquisset Extravagant Com Tit de Majoritate Obedientiâ c. Vuam Sanctam In addition D. P. Bertrands Edit Paris 1585. Christ if he have not taken the way they thinke fittest to settle Church Differences Or if for the Churches sin or Tryall the way of Composing them be left more uncertaine then they would have it that they which are approved may be knowne 〈◊〉 Cor. 11. 19. But the Iesuite had told me before that a Generall Councell had adjudged these things already For so hee saies F. I told him that a Generall Councell to wit of Trent had already Iudged not the Romane Church but the Protestants to hold Errours That saith the B. was not a Lawfull Councell B. It is true that you replied for the Councell of § 27 Trent And my Answer was not onely That the Councell was not Legall in the necessary Conditions to be observed in a Generall Councell but also That it was no Generall Councell which againe you are content to omit Consider it well First is that Councell Legall the Abettors whereof maintaine publikely That it is lawfull for them to conclude any controversie and make it bee de fide and so in your Iudgement Fundamentall though it have not I doe not say now the Written Word of God for warrant either in expresse Letter or necessary sense and deduction as all unerring Councels have had and as all must have that will not erre but not so much as †Etiamsi non confirmetur ne probabili Testimonio Scripturarum Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. Q. 1. Ar. 3. Probable Testimony from it nay quite extrà without the Scripture Nay secondly Is that Councell * Here A. C. tells us that doubtlesse the Arrians also did mislike that at Nice the Pope had Legates to carry his messages and that one of them in his place sate as President Why but first 't is manifest that Hosius was president at the Councell of Nice and not the Bishop of Rome either by himselfe or his Legates And so much Athanasius himselfe who was present and surely understood the Councell of Nice and who presided there as well as A. C. tells us Hosius hic est Princeps Synodorum So belike He presided in other Councells as well as at Nice Hic formulam Fidei in Nicaenâ Synodo concepit And this the Arrians themselves confesse to Constantius the Emperour then seduced to be theirs Apud S. Atbanas Epist. ad solitar vitam agentes But then secondly I doe not except against the Popes sitting as President either at Nice or Trent For that he might do when called or chosen to it as well as any other Patriarch if you consider no more but his sitting as President But at Nice the Cause was not his own but Christs against the Arrian whereas at Trent it was meerely his owne his own Supremacy and his Churches Corruptions against the Protestants And therefore surely not to sit President at the Triall of his owne Cause though in other Causes hee might sit as well other Patriarchs And for that of Bellarmine L. 1. de Concil c. 21. §. Tertia conditio Namely That 't is unjust to deny the Roman Prelat his Right Ius suum in Calling Generall Councells and Presiding in them in possession of which Right he hath bin for 1500. yeares That 's but a bold Assertion of the Cardinalls by his leave For he gives us no proofe of it but his bare word Whereas the very Authenticke Copies of the Councells published and printed by the Romanists themselves affirme cleerely they were called by Emperors not by the Pope And that the Pope did not preside in all of them And I hope Bellarmine will not expect we should take his bare word against the Councells And most certaine it is that even as Hosius Presided the Councell at Nice and no way that as the Popes Legate so also in the second Generall Councell which was the first of Constantinople Nectarius Bishop of Constantinople Presided Concil Chalced. Act. 6. p. 136. apud Binium In the third which was the first at Ephasus S. Cyril of Alexandria Presided And though Pope Coelestine was joyned with him yet be sent none out of the West to that Councel til many things were therein finished as appeares apud Act. Concil To. 2. c. 16. 17. In the fourth at Chalcedon the Legats of the Bishop of Rome had the Prime place In the fift Eutychius Bishop of Constantinople was President In the sixe and seventh the Legats of the Pope were President yet so as that almost all the duty of a Moderator or President was performed in the seventh by Tharasius Bishop of Constantinople as appeares manifestly in the Acts of that Councell And since these seven are all the Generall Councells which the Greekes and Latines joyntly acknowledge And that in these other Patriarchs Bishops Presided as oft at least as the Bishops of Rome what 's become of Bellarmines Brag That the Pope hath beene possest of this Right of Presiding in Generall Councells for the space of 1500. yeares Legall where the Pope the Chiefe Person to be Reformed shall sit President in it and be chiefe Iudge in his own Cause against all Law Divine Naturall and Humane In a place not free but in or too neare his owne Dominion To which all were not called that had Deliberative or Consultative Voice In which none had Suffrage but such as were sworne to the Pope and the Church of Rome and professed Enemies to all that called for