persons well affected to the Reformation It is not material what their true motives were for Iehu did a good work when he destroyed the Idolatry of Baal though neither his motives nor method of doing it are justifiable nor is it to the purpose to examine how those Bishops that reformed could have complied before with the corruptions of the Roman Church and received orders from them Meletius and Felix were placed by the Arrians the one at Antioch in the room of Eustatbius the other at Rome in Liberius his room who were both banished for the Faith and yet both these were afterwards great Defenders of the truth and Felix was a Martyr for it against these very Hereticks with whom they complied in the beginning So whatever mixture of carnal ends might be in any of the Secular men or what allay of humane infirmity and fear might have been in any of the Ecclesiasticks that can be no prejudice to the cause for men are always men and the power of God does often appear most eminently when there is least cause to admire the instruments he makes use of But in that juncture of affairs the Bishops and Clergy of this Church seeing great and manifest corruptions in it and it being apparent that the Church of Rome would consent to no reformation to any good purpose were obliged to reform and having the Authority of King and Parliament concurring they had betrayed their Consciences and the charge of Souls for which they stood engaged and were to answer at the great day if they had dallied longer and not warned the people of their danger and made use of the inclinations of the Civil Powers for carrying on so good at work And it is the lasting glory of the Reformation that when they saw the Heir of the Crown was inflexibly united to the Church of Rome they proceeded not to extream courses against her for what a few wrought on by the ambition of the Duke of Northumberland were got to do was neither the deed of the Nation nor of the Church since the Representatives of neither concurred in it But the Nation did receive the righteous Heir and then was our Church crowned with the highest glory it could have desired many of the Bishops who had been most active in the Reformation sealing it with their Blood and in death giving such evident proofs of holy and Christian constancy that they may be justly matched with the most Glorious Martyrs of the Primitive Church Then did both these Churches appear in their true colours That of Rome weltring in the Blood of the Saints and insatiately drinking it up and our Church bearing the Cross of Christ and following his example But when we were for some years thus tried in the fire then did God again bless us with the protection of the rightful and lawful Magistrate Then did our Church do as the Primitive Church had done under Theodosius when she got out from a long and cruel persecution of the Arrians under those enraged Emperours Constantius and Valens They reformed the Church from the Arrian Doctrine but would not imitate them in their persecuting spirit And when others had too deep resentments of the ill usage they had met with under the Arrian Tyranny Nazianzen and the other holy Bishops of that time did mitigate their Animosities So that the Churches were only taken from the Arrians but no storms were raised against them So in the beginning of Queen Elizabeth's Reign it cannot be denied that those of that Church were long suffered to live at quiet among us with little or no disturbance save that the Churches were taken out of their hands Nor were even those who had bathed themselves in so much blood made examples so entirely did they retain the meekness and lenity of the Christian spirit And if after many years quiet those of that Religion when they met with no trouble from the government did notwithstanding enter into so many plots and conspiracies against the Queen's person and the established government was it any wonder that severe Laws were made against them and those Emissaries who under a pretence of coming in a mission were sent as spies and agents among us to fill all with blood and confusion Whom had they blame for all this but themselves or was this any thing but what would have been certainly done in the gentlest and mildest government upon earth For the Law of self-preservation is engraven on all mens natures and so no wonder every State and Government sees to its own security against those who seek its ruine and destruction and it had been no wonder if upon such provocations there had been some severities used which in themselves were uniustifiable for few take reparation in an exact equality to the damage and injury they have received But since that time they have had very little cause to complain of any hard treatment and if they have met with any they may still thank the officious insolent deportment of some of their own Church that have given just cause of jealousie and fear But I shall pursue this discourse no further hoping enough is already said upon the head that engaged me to it to make it appear that it was possible the Doctrine of the Church should be changed in this matter and that it was truly changed From which I may be well allowed to subsume that our Church discovering that this change was made had very good reason and a sufficient authority to reform this corruption and restore the Primitive Doctrine again And now being to leave my Reader I shall only desire him to consider a little of how great importance his eternal concerns are and that he has no reason to look for endless happiness if he does not serve God in a way suitable to his will For what hopes soever there may be for one who lives and dies in some unknown error yet there are no hopes for those that either neglect or despise the truth and that out of humour or any other carnal account give themselves up to errours and willingly embrace them Certainly God sent not his Son in the world nor gave him to so cruel a death for nothing If he hath revealed his Counsels with so much solemnity his designs in that must be great and worthy of God The true ends of Religion must be the purifying our Souls the conforming us to the Divine Nature the uniting us to one another in the most tender bonds of Love Truth Justice and Goodness the raising our minds to a heavenly and contemplative temper and our living â—s Pilgrims and Strangers on this Earth ever waiting and longing for our change Now we dare appeal all men to shew any thing in our Religion or Worship that obstructs any of these ends on the contrary the sum and total of our Doctrine is the conforming our selves to Christ and his Apostles both in faith and life So that it can scarce be devised what should make any
A RELATION OF A CONFERENCE Held About RELIGION AT LONDON BY EDW. STILLINGFLEET D. D. c. With some Gentlemen of the Church of Rome LONDON Printed and are to be Sold by Randal Taylor near Stationers-Hall 1687. THE PREFACE THere is nothing that is by a more universal agreement decried than Conferences about Controversies of Religion and no wonder for they have been generally managed with so much heat and passion parties being more concerned for Glory and Victory than Truth and there is such foul dealing in the accounts given of them that it is not strange to see these Prejudices taken up against them And yet it cannot be denied but if Men of Candor and Calmness should discourse about matters of Religion without any other interest than to seek and follow Truth there could not be a more effectual and easie way found for satisfying Scruples More can be said in one hour than read in a day Besides that what is said in a discourse discreetly managed does more appositely meet with the doubtings and difficulties any body is perplexed with than is possibly to be found in a Book and since almost all Books disguise the Opinions of those that differ from them and represent their Arguments as weak and their Opinions as odious Conferences between those of different Perswasions do remedy all these Evils But after all the Advantages of this way it must be confessed that for the greater part Men are so engaged to their Opinions by interest and other ties that in Conferences most Persons are resolved before-hand to yield to no conviction but to defend every thing being only concerned to say so much as may darken weaker Minds that are Witnesses and give them some occasion to triumph at least conceal any foil they may have received by wrapping up some pittiful shift or other in such words and pronouncing them with such accents of assurance and perhaps scorn that they may seem to come off with Victory And it is no less frequent to see Men after they have been so baffled that all discerning Witnesses are ashamed of them yet being resolved to make up with impudence what is wanting in Truth as a Coward is generally known to boast most where he has least cause publish about what feats they have done and tell every body they see how the cause in their Mouth did triumph over their Enemies that so the praise of the defeat given may be divided between the cause and themselves and though in modesty they may pretend to ascribe all to Truth and the Faith they contended for yet in their Hearts they desire the greatest part be offered to themselves All these Considerations with a great many more did appear to us when the Lady T. asked us if we would speak with her Husband and some others of the Church of Rome as well for clearing such Scruples as the perpetual converse with those of that Religion had raised in the Lady as for satisfying her Husband of whose being willing to receive instruction she seemed confident Yet being well assured of the Ladies great candor and worth and being willing to stand up for the Vindication and Honour of our Church whatever might follow on it we promised to be ready to wait on her at her House upon advertisement without any nice treating before-hand what we should confer about Therefore we neither asked who should be there nor what number nor in what Method or on what particulars our discourse should run but went thither carrying only one Friend along with us for a Witness If the Discourse had been left to our managing we resolved to have insisted chiefly on the Corruptions in the worship of the Roman Church to have shewed on several Heads that there was good cause to reform these Abuses and that the Bishops and Pastors of this Church the Civil Authority concurring had sufficient Authority for reforming it These being the material things in Controversie which must satisfie every Person if well made out we intended to have discoursed about them but being put to answer we followed those we had to deal with But that we may not forestall the Reader in any thing that passed in the Ladies Chamber which he will find in the following account we had no sooner left her House but we resumed among our selves all had passed that it might be written down what ever should follow to be published if need were So we agreed to meet again three days after to compare what could be written down with our Memories And having met an account was read which did so exactly contain all that was spoken as far as we could remember that after a few Additions we all Three Signed the Narrative then agreed to Few days had passed when we found we had need of all that care and caution for the matter had got wind and was in every bodies Mouth Many of our best Friends know how far we were from talking of it for till we were asked about it we scarce opened our Mouths of it to any Person But when it was said that we had been baffled and foiled it was necessary for us to give some account of it Not that we were much concerned in what might be thought of us but that the most excellent cause of our Church and Religion might not suffer by the misrepresentations of this Conference And the truth was there was so little said by the Gentlemen we spoke with that was of weight that we had scarce any occasion given us of speaking about things of Importance So that being but faintly assaulted we had no great cause of boasting had we been ever so much inclined to it At length being weary with the Questions put to us about it we shewed some of our Friends the written account of it And that those of the Church of Rome might have no pretence to complain of any foul dealing on our part we caused a Copy of it to be writ out and on the 19. of April sent it the Lady T. to be shewed to them And one of us having the honour to meet with her afterwards desired her to let her Husband and the others with him know that as we had set down very faithfully all we could remember that they had said So if they could except at any part of this Narrative or would add any thing that they either did say which we had forgot or should have said which themselves had forgot to say we desired they might add it to the account we sent them For we looked on it as a most unreasonable thing that the Credit of any Cause or Party should depend on their Extemporary Faculty of speaking the quickness of their Invention or the readiness of their memory who discourse about it though it will appear that in this Conference they had all the advantage and we all the disadvantage possible Since they knew and were resolved what they would put us to of which we were utterly ignorant Save that about
me but I have recommended a Sacrament to you which being spiritually understood shall quicken you and tho it be necessary that it be celebrated visibly yet it must be understood invisibly From which it is as plain as can be that St. Austin believed that in the Eucharist we do not eat the natural Flesh and drink the natural Blood of Christ but that we do it only in a Sacrament and spiritually and invisibly But the force of all this will appear yet clearer if we consider that they speak of the Sacrament as a Memorial that exhibited Christ to us in his absence For tho it naturally follows that whatsoever is commemorated must needs be absent yet this will be yet more evident if we find the Fathers made such Reflections on it So Gaudentius says Tract in Exod. This is the hereditary Gift of his New Testament which that Night he was betrayed to be crucified he left as the Pledg of his Presence this is the Provision for our Iourney with which we are fed in this way of our Life and nourished till we go to him out of this World for he would have his Benefits remain with us He would have our Souls to be always sanctified by his precious Blood and by the Image of his own Passion Primasius Comm. in 1 Epist. ad Cor. compares the Sacrament to a Pledg which one when he is dying leaves to any whom he loved Many other places may be brought to shew how the Fathers speak of Memorials and Representations as opposite to the Truth and Presence of that which is represented And thus we doubt not but we have brought Proofs which in the Judgment of all that are unprejudiced must demonstrate the truth of this our second Proposition which we leave and go on to the third which was That by the Doctrine of the Fathers the unworthy Receivers did not receive Christ's Body and Blood in the Sacrament For this our first Proof is taken from Origen Com. in Mat. c. 15. who after he had spoken of the Sacraments being eaten and passing to the Belly adds These things we have said of the typical and symbolical Body but many things may be said of the Word that was made Flesh and the true Food whom whosoever eats he shall live for ever whom no wicked Person can eat for if it were possible that any who continues wicked should eat the Word that was made Flesh since he is the Word and the Living Bread it had never been written Whoso eats this Bread shall live for ever Where he makes a manifest difference between the typical and symbolical Body received in the Sacrament and the incarnate Word of which no wicked Person can partake And he also says Hom. 3. in Mat. They that are Good eat the Living Bread that came down from Heaven and the Wicked eat Dead Bread which is Death Zeno Bishop of Verona that as is believed lived near Origen's time Tom. 2. Spir. Dach says as he is cited by Ratherius Bishop of Verona There is cause to fear that he in whom the Devil dwells does not eat the Flesh of our Lord nor drink his Blood tho he seems to communicate with the Faithful since our Lord hath said He that eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood dwells in me and I in him St. Ierom on the 66th of Isaiah says They that are not holy in Body and Spirit do neither eat the Flesh of Iesus nor drink his Blood of which he said He that eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood hath Eternal Life And on the 8th Chapter of Hosea he says They eat not his Flesh whose Flesh is the Food of them that believe To the same purpose he writes in his Comments on the 22d of Ieremy and on the 10th of Zechariah St. Austin says Tract 26. in Ioan. He that does not abide in Christ and in whom Christ does not abide certainly does not spiritually eat his Flesh nor drink his Blood tho he may visibly and carnally break in his Teeth the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ But he rather eats and drinks the Sacrament of so great a matter to his Iudgment And speaking of those who by their Uncleanness become the Members of an Harlot he says Lib. 21. de Civ Dei c. 25. Neither are they to be said to eat the Body of Christ because they are not his Members And besides he adds He that says whoso eats my Flesh and drinks my Blood abides in me and I in him shews what it is not only in a Sacrament but truly to eat the Body of Christ and drink his Blood To this we shall add that so oft cited Passage Tract 54. in Ioan. Those did eat the Bread that was the Lord the other he means Iudas the Bread of the Lord against the Lord. By which he clearly insinuates he did believe the unworthy Receivers did not receive the Lord with the Bread And that this hath been the constant Belief of the Greek Church to this day shall be proved if it be thought necessary for clearing this matter And thus far we have studied to make good what we undertook to prove But if we had enlarged on every Particular we must have said a great deal more to shew from many undeniable Evidences that the Fathers were Strangers to this new Mystery It is clear from their Writings that they thought Christ was only spiritually present that we did eat his Flesh and drink his Blood only by Faith and not by our bodily Senses and that the words of eating his Flesh and drinking his Blood were to be understood spiritually It is no less clear that they considered Christ present only as he was on the Cross and not as he is now in the Glory of the Father And from hence it was that they came to order their Eucharistical Forms so as that the Eucharist might represent the whole History of Christ from his Incarnation to his Assumption Besides they always speak of Christ as absent from us according to his Flesh and Human Nature and only present in his Divinity and by his Spirit which they could not have said if they had thought him every day present on their Altars in his Flesh and Human Nature for then he were more on Earth than he is in Heaven since in Heaven he is circumscribed within one place But according to this Doctrine he must be always in above a Million of places upon Earth so that it were very strange to say he were absent if they believed him thus present But to give yet further Evidences of the Fathers not believing this Doctrine let us but reflect a little on the Consequences that necessarily follow it which be 1. That a Body may be by the Divine Power in more places at once 2. That a Body may be in a place without Extension or Quantity so a Body of such Dimensions as our blessed Lord's Body can be in so small a room as a thin Wafer and not only