then A. C. tels us That Particular Churches must in A. C. p. 58. that Case as Irenaeus intimateth have recourse to the Church of Rome which hath more powerfull Principality and to †And after hee saith p. 58. that the Bishop of Rome is and ought to bee the Iudge of particular Churches in this Case her Bishop who is chiefe Pastour of the whole Church as being S. Peter's Successour to whom Christ promised the keyes S. Matth. 16. for whom he prayed that his Faith might not faile S. Luke 22. And whom he charged to seed and governe the whole Flocke S Iohn 21. And this A. C. tels us he shall never refuse to doe in such sort as that this neglect shall be a Iust Cause for any Particular Man or Church under Pretence of Reformation in Manners or Faith to make a Schisme or Separation from the Whole Generall Church Well first you see where A. C. would have us If any Particular Churches differ in Points of Divine Truth they must not Iudge or Condemne each other saith he No take heed of that in any case That 's the Office of the Universall Church And yet he will have it That Rome which is but a Particular Church must and ought Iudge all other Particulars Secondly he tels us this is so Because the Church of Rome hath more Powerfull Principality then other Particular Churches and that her Bishop is Pastour of the Whole Church To this I answer that it is most true indeed the Church of Rome hath had and hath yet more Powerfull Principality then any other Particular Church But she hath not this Power from Christ. The Romane Patriarch by Ecclesiasticall Constitutions might perhaps have a Primacy of Order But for Principality of Power the Patriarchs were as even as equall as the a Summa Potestas Ecclesiastica non est data solum Petro sedetiam aliis Apostolis Omnes enim poterant dicere illud S. Pauli Solicitu la omnium Ecclesiarum c. 2. Cor. 11. 28. Bellar. L. 1. de Rom. Pont. c. 9. §. Respondâ—… Pontificatum Where then is the difference betweene S. Peter and the rest In this saith Bellarmin Ibid. Quta hec Potestas data est Petro ut Ordinario Pastori cui perpetuo succederetur Aliis verò tanquà m Delegatis quibus non succederetur This is handsomely said to men easie of beliefe But that the Highest Power Ecclesiasticall confessed to be given to the other Apostle as well as to S. Peter was given to S. Peter onely as to an Ordinary Pastour whose Successours should have the same Power which the Successours of the rest should not have can never bee prooved out of Scripture Nay I will give them their own Latitude it can never be proved by any Tradition of the whole Catholike Church And till it be proved Bellarmines handsome Expression cannot be believed by me For S. Cyprian hath told me long since that Episcopatus Vnus est for as much as belongs to the Calling as well as Apostolatus L. de simp. Praelato Apostles were before them The Truth is this more Powerfull Principality the Romane Bishops b §. 25. Nu. 12. got under the Emperours after they became Christian and they used the matter so that they grew big enough to oppose nay to depose the Emperours by the same power which they had given them And after this other Particular Churches especially here in the West submitted themselves to them for succour and Protections sake And this was one maine Cause which swelled Rome into this more Powerfull Principality and not any Right given by Christ to make that c Lib. 1. de Rom. Pont. c. 9. §. Augustmu Epistola Prelate Pastour of the whole Church I know Bellarmine makes much adoe about it and will needs fetch it out of d S. Aug. Epist. 162. In Romaná Ecclesiâ—… emper Apostolicae Cathedrae viguit Principatas S. Augustine who sayes indeed That in the Church of Rome there did alwaies flourish the Principality of an Apostolicke Chaire Or if you will the Apostolicke Chaire in relation to the West and South parts of the Church all the other foure Apostolicke Chaires being in the East Now this no man denies that understands the state and story of the Church And e Quia Opinio invaluit fundâ—…tam esse hanc Ecclesiam à S. Petâ—… Jtaque in Occidente Sedes Apostolica Honoris 〈◊〉 Calv. L. 4. c. 6. §. 16. Calvin confesses it expresly Nor is the Word Principatus so great nor were the Bishops of those times so little as that Principes and Principatus are not commonly given them both by the a Princeps Ecclesiae S. H. lar 18. de Trin. Prin. And he speakes of a Biâ—…hop in generall Greg. Nazianz. Orat. 17. Ascribuntur Episcopo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Imperium Thronus Principatus ad regimâ—…n Aâ—…imarum Et 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hujusmodi Imperium And he also speaks of a Bishop Greg. Nazian Orat. 20. Nor were these any Titles of pride in Biâ—…hops then For S. Greg. Nazianz. who challenges these Titles to himselfe Orat. 17. was so devout so mild and so humble that rather then the Peace of the Church should be broken he freely resigned the Great Patriarchate of Constantinople and retired and this in the First Councell of Constantinople and the Second Generall Greeke and the Latine Fathers of this great and Learnedest Age of the Church made up of the fourth and fist hundred yeares alwaies understanding Principatus of their Spirituall Power and within the Limits of their severall Iurisdictions which perhaps now and then they did occasionally exceed And there is not one word in S. Augustine That this Principality of the Apostolike Chaire in the Church of Rome was then or ought to be now exercised over the whole Church of Christ as Bellarmine insinuates there and as A. C. would have it here And to prove that S Augustine did not intend by Principatus here to give the Romane Bishop any Power out of his owne Limits which God knowes were farre short of the whole Church I shall make it most manifest out of the very same Epistle For afterwards saith S. Augustine when the pertinacy of the Donatists could not be restrained by the African Bishops only b Pergant ad Fratres Collegas nostros transmarinarum Ecclesiarum Episcopos c. S. Aug. Ep 162. they gave them leave to be heard by forraigne Bishops And after that he hath these words c An fortè non debuit Romanae Ecclesiae Melciades Episcopus cum Collegis transmarinis Episcopis illud sibi usurpare judicium quod ab Afris septuaginta ubi Primas Tigisitanus praesedit fuerit terminaetum Quid quod nec ipse usurpâ—…vit Rogatus quippe Imperator Iudices misit Episcopos qui cum â—…o sederent de totâ illâ Causà quod justum videretur statuerent c. S. Aug. Ibid. And yet peradventure Melciades the Bishop of
of all doubt neither First because many Learned men have challenged many Popes for teaching Heresy and that 's against the true Faith And that which so many Learned Men have affirmed is not out of all doubt Or if it be why does Bellarmine take so much paines to confute and disproove them as †Bellar. L. 4. de Ro. Pont. c. 8. he doth Secondly because Christ obtained of his Father every thing that he prayed for if he prayed for it absolutely and not under a Condition Father I know thou hearest me alwayes S. Iohn 11. Now Christ here prayed absolutely for S. Peter Therefore whatsoever he S. Iohn 11. 42. asked for him was granted Therfore if Christ intended his Successors as well as himselfe his Prayer was granted for his Successors as well as for himselfe But then if Bellarmine will tell us absolutely as he doth * Donum hoc loco Petro impetratum etiam ad Successores pertinet Bel. L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 3. §. Quarto Donum hoc That the whole Gift obtained by this Prayer for S. Peter did belong to his Successors and then by and by after breake this Gift into two parts and call the first part into doubt whether it belongs to his Successors or no he cannot say the second part is out of all doubt For if there be reason of doubting the one there 's as much reason of doubting the other since they stand both on the same foot The Ualidity of Christ's Prayer for Saint Peter Yea but Christ charged S. Peter to governe and feede his whole flocke S. Iohn 21. Nay soft 'T is but his Sheepe S. Iohn 21. 15. and his Lambes and that every Apostle and every Apostles Successor hath charge to doc * Mat. 28. 29 S. Mat. 10. 17. The same power and charge is gâ—…en to them al. A. C. p. 58. S. Matth. 28. But over the whole Flocke 〈◊〉 find no one Apostle or Successor set And 't is a poore shift to say as A C doth That the Bishop of Rome is set over the whole Flocke because both over Lambes and Sheep For in every flock that is not of barren Weathers there are Lamâ—…s and Sheepe that is †And this seemes to me to allâ—…de to that of S. Paul 1 Corinth 3 2. and Heb. 5. 12. Some are sed with milke and some with stronger meat The Lambes with milke and the Sheepe with stronger meate But here A. C. followes Pope Hildebrand close who in the Case of the Emperor then asked this Question Quando Christus Ecclesiam suam Petro commisit dixit Pasce Oves meas excepitne Reges Plat. in vita Greg 7. And certainly Kings are not exempted from being fed by the Church But from being spoyled of their Kingdomes by any Church-men that they are weaker and stronger Christians not People and Pastors Subjects and Governouâ—…s as A. C. expounds it to bring the Necks of Princâ—…s under Romane Pride And if Kings bee meant yet then the command is Pasce feed them But Deponere or Occiure to depose or kill them is not Pascere in any sense Lanii id est non Pastori that 's the Butchers not the Shepheards part If a Sheep go astray never so far 't is not the Shepheards part to kill him at least if he doe non pascit dum occidit he doth not certainly feede while he killes And for the Close That the Bishop of Rome shall never refuse to feed and governe the whole stock in such sort as A. C. p. 58. that neither particular Man nor Church shall 〈◊〉 just Cause under pâ—…etence of Reformation in Manners or Faith to make a Sâ—…paration from the whole Church By A. C s. favour this is meere begging of the Question He sayes the Pope shall ever governe the Whole Church so as that there shall be no just Cause given of a Separation And that is the very Thing which the Protestants charge upon him Namely that he hath governed if notthe Whole yet so much of the Church as he hath beene able to bring under his Power so as that he hath given too just Cause of the present continued separation And as the Corruptions in the Doctrine of Faith in the Church of Rome were the Cause of the first Separation so are they at this present day the Cause why the separation continues And further I for my part am cleare of Opinion that the Errours in the Doctrine of Faith which are charged upon the whole Church at least so much of the whole as in these parts of Europe hath beene kept under the Romane Iurisdiction have had their Originall and Continuance from this that so much of the Vniversall Church which indeed they account All hath forgotten her owne Liberty and submitted to the Romane Church and Bishop and so is in a manner forced to embrace all the Corruptions which the Particular Church of Rome hath contracted upon itself And being now not able to free her selfe from the Romane Iurisdiction is made to continue also in all her Corruptions And for the Protestants they have made no separation from the Generall Church properly so called for therein A. C. said well the Popes Administration can give no Cause to separate from that but A. C. p. 58. their Separation is only from the Church of Rome and such other Churches as by adhering to her have hazarded themselves and do now miscall themselves the Whole Catholike Church Nay even here the Protestants have not left the Church of Rome in her Essence but in her Errours not in the Things which Constitute a Church but only in such Abuses and Corruptions as work toward the Dissolution of a Church F. I also asked who ought to judge in this Case The B. said a Generall Councell B. And surely What greater or surer Iudgement you can have where sense of Scripture is doubted § 26 then a Generall Councell I doe not see Nor doe you doubt And A. C. grants it to be a most Competent A. C. p. 59. Iudge of all Controversies of Faith so that all Pastors be gathered together and in the Name of Christ and pray unanimously for the promised assistance of the Holy Ghost and make great and diligent search and examination of the Scriptures and other Grounds of Faith And then Decree what is to bee held for Divine Truth For then saith he 't is Firme and Insallible or els there is nothing firm upon earth As faire as this Passage seems and as freely as I have granted that a Generall Councell is the best Judge on earth where the sense of Scripture is doubted yet even in this passage there are some things Considerable As first when shall the Church hope for such a Generall Councell in which all Pastors shall be gathered together there was never any such Generall Councell yet nor doe I believe such can be had So that 's supposed in vaine and you might have learn'd this of *
appeares though somewhat may be done by the Bishops and Governours of the Church to preserve the unity and certainty of Faith and to keepe the Church from renting or for uniting it when it is rent yet that in the ordinary way which the Church hath hitherto kept some things there are and upon great emergent Occasions may be which can have no other helpe then a lawfull fre and well composed Generall Councell And when that cannot be had the Church must pray that it may and expect till it may or else reforme its selfe per partes by Nationall or Provinciall Synods as hath beene said a §. 24. N. 1. before And in the meane time it little beseemes A. C. or any Christian to check at the wisdome of †And shall we think that Christ the wisest king hath not provided c. A. C. p. 60. Where I cannot commend either A. C. his Modesty that he doth not or his cunning that he will not go so 〈◊〉 as some have done before him though in these words shall we think c hee goes too farre Non videretur Dominus discretus fuisse ut cum reverentiá ejus loquar nisi unicum post se talem Vicarium reliquisset qui haec omnia potest Fuit autem ejus Vicarius Petrus Et idem dicendum est de Successoribus Petri cum cadem absurditas sequeretur si post mortem Petâ—…i Humanam Naturam à se creatam sine regimine Vnius Personae reliquisset Extravagant Com Tit de Majoritate Obedientiâ c. Vuam Sanctam In addition D. P. Bertrands Edit Paris 1585. Christ if he have not taken the way they thinke fittest to settle Church Differences Or if for the Churches sin or Tryall the way of Composing them be left more uncertaine then they would have it that they which are approved may be knowne 〈◊〉 Cor. 11. 19. But the Iesuite had told me before that a Generall Councell had adjudged these things already For so hee saies F. I told him that a Generall Councell to wit of Trent had already Iudged not the Romane Church but the Protestants to hold Errours That saith the B. was not a Lawfull Councell B. It is true that you replied for the Councell of § 27 Trent And my Answer was not onely That the Councell was not Legall in the necessary Conditions to be observed in a Generall Councell but also That it was no Generall Councell which againe you are content to omit Consider it well First is that Councell Legall the Abettors whereof maintaine publikely That it is lawfull for them to conclude any controversie and make it bee de fide and so in your Iudgement Fundamentall though it have not I doe not say now the Written Word of God for warrant either in expresse Letter or necessary sense and deduction as all unerring Councels have had and as all must have that will not erre but not so much as †Etiamsi non confirmetur ne probabili Testimonio Scripturarum Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. Q. 1. Ar. 3. Probable Testimony from it nay quite extrà without the Scripture Nay secondly Is that Councell * Here A. C. tells us that doubtlesse the Arrians also did mislike that at Nice the Pope had Legates to carry his messages and that one of them in his place sate as President Why but first 't is manifest that Hosius was president at the Councell of Nice and not the Bishop of Rome either by himselfe or his Legates And so much Athanasius himselfe who was present and surely understood the Councell of Nice and who presided there as well as A. C. tells us Hosius hic est Princeps Synodorum So belike He presided in other Councells as well as at Nice Hic formulam Fidei in Nicaenâ Synodo concepit And this the Arrians themselves confesse to Constantius the Emperour then seduced to be theirs Apud S. Atbanas Epist. ad solitar vitam agentes But then secondly I doe not except against the Popes sitting as President either at Nice or Trent For that he might do when called or chosen to it as well as any other Patriarch if you consider no more but his sitting as President But at Nice the Cause was not his own but Christs against the Arrian whereas at Trent it was meerely his owne his own Supremacy and his Churches Corruptions against the Protestants And therefore surely not to sit President at the Triall of his owne Cause though in other Causes hee might sit as well other Patriarchs And for that of Bellarmine L. 1. de Concil c. 21. §. Tertia conditio Namely That 't is unjust to deny the Roman Prelat his Right Ius suum in Calling Generall Councells and Presiding in them in possession of which Right he hath bin for 1500. yeares That 's but a bold Assertion of the Cardinalls by his leave For he gives us no proofe of it but his bare word Whereas the very Authenticke Copies of the Councells published and printed by the Romanists themselves affirme cleerely they were called by Emperors not by the Pope And that the Pope did not preside in all of them And I hope Bellarmine will not expect we should take his bare word against the Councells And most certaine it is that even as Hosius Presided the Councell at Nice and no way that as the Popes Legate so also in the second Generall Councell which was the first of Constantinople Nectarius Bishop of Constantinople Presided Concil Chalced. Act. 6. p. 136. apud Binium In the third which was the first at Ephasus S. Cyril of Alexandria Presided And though Pope Coelestine was joyned with him yet be sent none out of the West to that Councel til many things were therein finished as appeares apud Act. Concil To. 2. c. 16. 17. In the fourth at Chalcedon the Legats of the Bishop of Rome had the Prime place In the fift Eutychius Bishop of Constantinople was President In the sixe and seventh the Legats of the Pope were President yet so as that almost all the duty of a Moderator or President was performed in the seventh by Tharasius Bishop of Constantinople as appeares manifestly in the Acts of that Councell And since these seven are all the Generall Councells which the Greekes and Latines joyntly acknowledge And that in these other Patriarchs Bishops Presided as oft at least as the Bishops of Rome what 's become of Bellarmines Brag That the Pope hath beene possest of this Right of Presiding in Generall Councells for the space of 1500. yeares Legall where the Pope the Chiefe Person to be Reformed shall sit President in it and be chiefe Iudge in his own Cause against all Law Divine Naturall and Humane In a place not free but in or too neare his owne Dominion To which all were not called that had Deliberative or Consultative Voice In which none had Suffrage but such as were sworne to the Pope and the Church of Rome and professed Enemies to all that called for
other Whether you have related the two former truly appeares by D. White the late Reverend L. Bishop of Ely his Relation or Exposition of them I was present at none but this Third of which I here give the Church an Account But of this Third whether that were the Cause which you alledge I cannot tell You say F. It was observed That in the second Conference all the Speech was about particular matters little or none about a continuall infallible visible Church which was the chiefe and onely Point in which a certaine Lady required satisfaction as having formerly setled in her minde That it was not for her or any other unlearned Persons to take up on them to judge of Particulars without depending upon the Iudgement of the true Church B. The Opinion of that Honourable Person in § 2 this was never opened to mee And it is very fit the people should looke to the Iudgement of the Church before they bee too busie with Particulars But yet neither a 1 Cor. 10. 15. Scripture nor any good Authority denies them some moderate use of their owne understanding and Iudgement especially in things familiar and evident which even b Quis non sine ullo Magistro aut interprete ex se facilè cognoscat c. Novat de Trin. c. 23. Et loquitur de Mysterio Passion is Christi Dijudicare est Mensurare c. Unde Mens dicitur a Metiendo Tho. p. 1. q. 79. A. 9. ad 4. To what end then is a m nde and an understanding given a Man if he may not apply it to measure Truth Et 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. ab eo quod confiderat discernit Quiadecernit inter verum falsum Damasc. l. 2. Fid. Orth. c. 22. And A. C. himselfe p. 41. denyes not all Iudgement to private men but sayes they are not so to relie absolutely upon their private Iudgement as to adventure salvation upon it alone or chiefly which no man will deny ordinary Capacities may as easily understand as reade And therefore some Particulars a Christian may judge without depending F. This Lady therefore having heard it granted in the first Conference That there must bee a continuall visible Company ever since Christ teaching unchanged Doctrine in all Fundamentall Points that is Poynts necessary to salvation desired to heare this confirmed and proofe brought which was that continuall infallible visible Church in which one may and out of which one cannot attaine salvation And therefore having appointed a time of Meeting betweene a B. and me and thereupon having sent for the B. and me before the B. came the Lady and a friend of hers came first to the roome where I was and debated before me the aforesaid Question and not doubting of the first part to wit That there must be a continuall visible Church as they had heard granted by D. White and L. K. c. B. What D. White and L. K. granted I heard § 3 not But I thinke both granted a continuall and a visible Church neither of them an infallible at least in your sense And your selfe in this Relation speake distractedly For in these few lines from the beginning hither twice you adde infallible betweene continuall and visible and twice you leave it out But this concernes D. W. and he hath answered it Here A. C. steps in and sayes The Iesuite did not speake distractedly but most advisedly For saith he A. C. p. 40. where he relates what D. White or L. K. granted hee leaves out the word Infallible because they granted it not But where he speakes of the Lady there he addes it because the Iesuite knew it was an infallible Church which she sought to rely upon How farre the Catholike Militant Church of Christ is infallible is no Dispute for this Place though you shall finde it after But sure the Iesuite did not speake most advisedly nor A. C. neither nor the Lady her selfe if she said she desired to relie upon an Infallible Church For an Infallible Church denotes a Particular Church in that it is set in opposition to some other Particular Church that is not infallible Now I for my part doe not know what that Lady desired to relie upon This I know if she desired such a Particular Church neither this Iesuite nor any other is able to shew it her No not Bellarmine himselfe though of very great ability to make good any Truth which he undertakes for the Church of Rome †Feritas vincat necesse est sive Negantem sive confitentem c. S. Aug. Epist. 174. Ocâ—…ultari potest ad tempus veritas vinci non potest S. Aug. in Psal. 61. But no strength can uphold an Error against Truth where Truth hath an able Defendant Now where Bellarmine sets himselfe purposely to make Lib. 4. De Rom. Pont. Cap. 4. §. 1. Romana particularis Ecclesta non potest errare in Fide this good That the Particular Church of Rome cannot erre in matter of Faith Out of which it followes That there may be found a Particular infallible Church you shall see what he is able to performe 1. First then after he hath Distinguished to expresse his meaning in what sense the Particular Church of Rome cannot erre in things which are de Fide of the Faith he tells us this Firmitude is because the Sea Apostolike is fixed there And this he saith is most true * Ibid. §. 2. And for proofe of it he brings three Fathers to justifie it 1. The first S. Cyprian a Navigare audent ad Petri Cathodram Ecclesiam principalem c. Nec cogitare eos esse Romanos ad quos Perfidia habere non potest accessum Cypr. l. 1. Ep. 3. whose words are That the Romanes are such as to whom Perfidia cannot have accesse Now Perfidia can hardly stand for Error in Faith or for Misbeliefe But it properly signifies malicious Falsehood in matter of Trust and Action not error in faith but in fact against the Discipline and Government of the Church And why may it not here have this meaning in S. Cyprian For the Story there it is this b Bin. Concil To. 1. p. 152. Edit Paris 1636. Baron Annal. an 253. 254. 255. In the Yeare 255. there was a Councell in Carthage in the cause of two Schismatiks Felicissimus and Novatian about restoring of them to the Communion of the Church which had lapsed in time of danger from Christianity to Idolatry Felicissimus would admit all even without penance and Novatian would admit none no not after penance The Fathers forty two in number went as the Truth led them between both Extreames To this Councell came Privatus a knowne Heretick but was not admitted because he was formerly Excommunicated and often condemned Hereupon he gathers his Complicies together and chooses one Fortunatus who was formerly condemned as well as himselfe Bishop of Carthage and set him up against S. Cyprian This done
writ downe my words in fresh memory and upon speciall notice taken of the Passage and that I did say either Iâ—…dem or aequipollentibus verbis either in these or equivalent words That the Protestants did make the Râ—…nt or Division from the Romane Church What did the Iesuite set downe my words in fresh memory and upon speciall notice taken and were they so few as these The Protestants did make the Schisme and yet was his memory so short that he cannot tell whether I uttered this iisdem or aequipollentibus verbis Well I would A. C. and his Fellowes would leave this Art of theirs and in Conferences which * A. C. p. 57. they are so ready to call for impose no more upon other men then they utter And you may observe too that after all this full Assertion that I spake this iisdem or aequipollentibus verbis A. C. concludes thus The Iesuite tooke speciall notice in fresh memory and is sure he related at A. C. p. 55. least in sense just as it was uttâ—…red What 's this At least in sense jâ—…st as it was uttered Do not these two Enterfeire and shew the Iesuite to be upon his shuffling pace For if it were just as it was uttered then it was in the very forme of words too not in sense onely And if it were but At least in sense then when A. C. hath made the most of it it was not just as 't was uttered Besides at least in sense doth not tell us in whose sense it was For if A. C. meane the Iesuite's sense of it he may make what sense he pleases of his owne words but he must impose no sense of his upon my words But as he must leave my words to my selfe so when my words are uttered or written he must leave their sense either to me or to that genuine Construction which an Ingenuous Reader can make of them And what my words of Grant were I have before expressed and their sense too Not with my selfe That 's the next For A. C. sayes 't is truth and that the world knowes it that the A. C. p. 56. Protestants did depart from the Church of Rome and got the name of Protestants by protesting against it No A. C. by your leave this is not truth neither and therefore I had reason to be angry with my selfe had I granted it For first the Protestants did not depart For departure is voluntary so was not theirs I say not theirs taking their whole Body and Cause together For that some among them were peevish and some ignorantly zealous is neither to be doubted nor is there Danger in confessing it Your Body is not so perfect I wot well but that many amongst you are as pettish and as ignorantly zealous as any of Ours You must not suffer for these nor We for those nor should the Church of Christ for either Next the Protestants did not get that Name by Protesting against the Church of Rome but by Protesting and that when nothing else would serve †Conventus suit Ordinum Imperii Spirae Ibi Decretum factum est ut Edictum Wormatiense observaretur contra Novatores sic appellare placuit ut omnia in integrum restituantur sic nulla omnino Reformatio Contra hoc Edictum solennis fuit Protestatio Aprilis 16. An. Ch. 1529. Et hinc ortum pervulgatum illud Protestantium nomen Se. Calvis Chron. ad An. 1529. Thâ—…s Protestation therefore was not simply against the Romane Church but against the Edict which was for the restoring of all things to their former estate without any Râ—…formation against her Errours Superstitions Do you but remove them from the Church of Rome and our Protestation is ended and the Separation too Nor is Protestation it selfe such an unheard of thing in the very heart of Religion For the Sacraments both of the Old and New Testament are called by your owne Schoole Visible Signes protesting the Faith Now if the Sacraments be Protestantia Signes Protesting why may not men also and without all offence be called Protestants since by receiving the true Sacraments and by refusing them which are corrupted they doe but Protest the sincerity of their Faith against that Doctrinall Corruption which hath invaded the great Sacrament of the Eucharist and other Parts of Religion Especially since they are men a Quibus homo fidem suam protestaretur Tho. p. 3. q. 61. A. 3. 4. C. which must protest their Faith by these visible Signes and Sacraments But A. C. goes on and will needs have it that the Protestants were the Cause of the Schisme For A. C. p. 56. saith he though the Church of Rome did thrust them from her by Excommunication yet they had first divided themselves by obstinate holding and teaching opinions contrary to the Romane Faith and Practice of the Church which to do S. Bernard thinks is Pride and S. Augustine Madnesse So then in his Opinion First Excommunication on their Part was not the Prime Cause of this Division but the holding and teaching of contrary Opinions Why but then in my Opinion That holding and teaching was not the Prime Cause neither but the Corruptions and Superstitions of Rome which forced many men to hold and teach the contrary So the Prime Cause was theirs still Secondly A. C s. words are very considerable For he charges the Protestants to be the Authours of the Schisme for obstinate holding and teaching Contrary Opinions To what I pray Why to the b I know Bellarm. quotes S. Ierome Sciro Romanam Fidem c. suprà §. 3. Nu. 9. But there S. Ierome doth not call it Fidem Romanam as if Fides Romana and Fides Catholica were convertible but he speakes of it in the Concrete Romana Fides i. Romanorum Fides qua laudata suit ab Apostolo c. Ro. 1. 8. S. Hieron Apol. 3. cont Ruffin That is that Faith which was then at Rome when S. Paul commended it But the Apostles commending of it in the Romanes at one time passes no deed of Assurance that it shall continue worthy of Commendations among the Romans through all tâ—…mes Romane Faith To the Romane Faith It was wont to be the Christian Faith to which contrary Opinions were so dangerous to the Maintainers But all 's Romane now with A. C. and the Iesuite And then to countenance the Businesse S. Bernard and S. Augustine are brought in whereas neither of them speak of the Romane and S. Bernard perhaps neither of the Catholike nor the Romane but of a Particular Church or Congregation Or if he speake of the Catholike of the Romane certainly he doth not His words are Quae major superbia c. What greater pride then that one man should preferre his judgement before the whole Congregation of all the Christian Churches in the world So A. C. as out of Saint Bernard †Quae major superbia quà m ut unus homo toti Congregationi judicium
say it then I do say it now and most true it is That it was ill done of those who e're they were that first made the separation But then A. C must not understand me of Actuall only but of Causall separation For as I said * §. 21. Nu. 1. before the Schisme is theirs whose the Cause of it is And he makes the Separation that gives the first just Cause of it not he that makes an Actuall Separation upon a just Cause preceding And this is so evident a Truth that A C. cannot deny it for he sayes 't is most true Neither can he deny it in this A. C. p. 56. sense in which I have expressed it For his very Assertion against us though false is in these Termes That we gave the first Cause Therefore he must meane it of Causall not of Actuall Separation only But then A. C. goes on and tells us That after this Breach was made yet the Church of Rome was so kinde A. C. p. 57. and carefull to seeke the Protestants that She invited them publikely with safe conduct to Rome to a Generall Councell freely to speak what they could for themselves Indeed I thinke the Church of Rome did carefully seeke the Protestants But I doubt it was to bring them within their Net And she invited them to Rome A very safe place if you marke it for them to come to Iust as the Lion in the a Olim quod vulpes aegroto cauta Leoni Respondit referam Quia me vestigia terrent Omnia te adversum spectantia nulla retrorsùm Apologue invited the Fox to his own Den. Horat. L. 1. Ep. 1. ex Aesop. Yea but there was safe Conduct offered too Yes Conduct perhaps but not safe or safe perhaps for going thither but none for coÌ„ming thence Vestigia nulla retrorsùm Yea but it should have been to a Generall Councell Perhaps so But was the Conduct safe that was given for comming to a Councell which they cal Generall to some others before them No sure b Though I cannot justifie all which these two men said yet safe Conduct being given that Publike Faith ought not to have beene violated Iohn Hus and Jerome of Prage burnt for all their safe conduct And so long as c Affirmant uno consensu omnes Catholici debere Haereticis servari fidem sive salvus conductus concedatur Iure communi sive speciali Bec. Dis. Theol. de Fide Haereticis servandâ c. 12. §. 5. But for al this Brag of Affirmant uno consensu omnes Catholici Becanus shuffles pitifully to defend the Councell of Constance For thus he argues Fides non est violata Hussio Non à Patribus Illi enim fidem non dederunt Non ab Imperatore Sigismundo Ille enim dedit fidem sed non violavit Ibid. §. 7. But all men know that the Emperor was used by the Fathers at Constance to bring Husse thither Sigismundus Hussum Constantiam vocat missis Literis publicâ fide cavet mense Octob. Ann. 1414. c. Edit in 160. Et etiamsi Primò graviter tulit Hussi in carcerationem tamen cum dicerent Fidem Haereticis non esse servandam non modo remisit Offensionem sed primus accrbè in eum pronunciav it Ibid. This is a mockery And Becanus his Argument is easily returned upon himselfe For if the Fathers did it in cunning that the Emperor should give safe conduct which themselves meant not to keepe then they broke faith And if the Emperor knew they would not keepe it then he himselfe broke faith in giving a safe conduct which he knew to be invalid And as easie it is to answer what Becanus addes to save that Councels Act could I stay upon it Fides Haereticis data servanda non est sicut nec Tyrannis Piratis câ—…teris publicis praedonibus c. Simanca Jnstit Tit. 46. §. 51. And although Becanus in the place above cited §. 13. confidently denyes that the Fathers at Constance decreed No faith to be kept with Hereticks and cites the words of the Councell Sess. 19. yet there the very words themselves have it thus Posse Concilium cos punire c. etiamsi de salvo conductu consisi ad locum venâ—…rint Judicii c. And much more plainly Simanca Just. Tit. 46. §. 52. Iureigitur Haeretici quidam gravissimo Concilii Constantiensis Judicio legitimâ flammâ concremati sunt quamvis promiâ—…sa illis securitas fuisset So they are not onely Protestants which charge the Councell of Constance with this Nor can Becanus say as â—…e doth Affirmant uno consensu omnes Catholici sidem Hareticis servandam esse For Simanca denyes it And hee quotes others for it which A. C. would be loth should not be accounted Catholikes But how faithfully Simanca sayes the one or Becanus the other let them take it betweene them and the Reader be judge In the meane time the very Title of the Canon of the Councell of Constance Sess. 19. is this Quodnon obstantibus salvis conductibus Jmperatoris Regum c. possit per Indicem competentem de Haeretica pâ—…te inquiri the IeIesuites write and maintaine That Faith given is not to be kept with Heretickes And the Church of Rome leaves this lewd Doctrine uncensured as it hath hitherto done and no exception put in of force and violence A. C shall pardon us that we come not to Rome nor within the reach of Romane Power what freedome of Speech soever bee promised us For to what end Freedome of Speech on their part d For so much A. C. confesses p. 45. For if they should give way to the altering of one then why not of another and another and so of al And the Trent Fathers in a great point of Doctrine being amazed and not knowing what to answer to a Bishop of their owne yet were resolved not to part with their common error Certum tamen er at Doctrinam eam non probare sed quam antea didicissent firmitèr tenere c. Hist. Con. Trid. L. 2. p. 277. Edit Leyd 1612. since they are resolved to alter nothing And to what end Freedome of speech on our part if after speech hath beene free life shall not And yet for all this A. C. makes no doubt but that the Romane Church is so farre from being Cause of the continuance A. C. p. 57. of the Schisme or hinderance of the Re-union that it would yet give a free hearing with most ample safe Conduct if any hope might be given that the Protestants would sincerely seeke nothing but Truth and Peace Truly A. C. is very Resolute for the Romane Church yet how far he may undertake for it I cannot tell But for my part I am of the same Opinion for the continuing of the Schisme that I was for the making of it That is that it is ill very ill done of those whoever they be Papists or Protestants
that give just Cause to continue a Separation But for free-hearings or safe Conducts I have said enough till that Church doe not only say bnt doe otherwise And as for Truth and Peace they are in every mans mouth with you and with us But lay they but halfe so close to the hearts of men as they are common on their tongues it would soone be better with Christendome then at this day it is or is like to be And for the Protestants in generall I hope they seeke both Truth and Peace sincerely The Church of England I am sure doth and hath taught me to †Beseeching God to inspire continually the Vniversall Church with the Spirit of truth unity and concord c. In the Prayer for the Militant Church And in the third Collect on Good-friday pray for both as I most heartily doe But what Rome doth in this if the world will not see I will not Censure And for that which A. C. addes That such a free hearing is more then ever the English Catholikes could obtaine A. C. p. 57. though they have often offered and desired it and that but under the Princes word And that no Answer hath nor no good Answer can be given And he cites Campian for it How farre or how often this hath beene asked by the English Rommists I cannot tell nor what Answer hath beene given them But surely Campian was too bold and so is A. C. too to say * Campian praefat Rationsbut praefixà Honestum responsum nullum no good Answer can be given For this I thinke is a very good Answer That the Kings and the Church of England had no Reason to admit of a Publike Dispute with the English Romish Clergie till they shall be able to shew it under the Seale or Powers of Rome That that Church will submit to a Third who may be an Indifferent Iudge betweene us and them or to such a Generall Councell as is after * §. 26. Nu. 1. mentioned And this is an Honest and I thinke a full Answer And without this all Disputation must end in Clamour And therefore the more publike the worse Because as the Clamour is the greater so perhaps will be the Schisme too F. Moreover he said he would ingenuously acknowledge That the Corruption of Manners in the Romish Church was not a sufficient Cause to justifie their Departing from it B. I would I could say you did as ingenuously repeat § 22 as I did Confesse For I never said That Corruption of Manners was or was not a sufficient Cause to justifie their Departure How could I say this since I did not grant that they did Depart otherwise then is * §. 21. N. 6. before expressed There is difference between Departure and causelâ—…sse Thrusting from you For out of the Church is not in your Power God bee thanked to thrust us Think on that And so much I said expresly then That which I did ingenuously confesse was this That Corruption in Manners only is no sufficient Cause to make a Separation in the Church a Modò ea qùae ad CathedraÌ„ pertinent recta praecipiant S. Hier. Ep. 236. Nor is it It is a Truth agreed on by the Fathers and received by Divines of all sorts save by the Cathari to whom the Donatist and the Anabaptist after accorded And against whom b L. 4. Instit. c. 1. §. 13. c. Ep. 48. A malis piscibus corde semper moribus seâ—…arantur c. Corporalem separationem in â—…tore maris hoc est in fine saculi expectant Calvin disputes it strongly And S. Augustine is plaine There are bad fish in the Net of the Lord from which there must be ever a Separation in heart and in manners but a corporali 〈◊〉 must be expected at the Sea shore that is the end of the world And the best fish that are must not teare and breake the Net because the bad are with them And this is as ingenuously Confessed for you as by me For if Corruption in Manners were a just Cause of Actuall Separation of one Church from another in that Catholike Body of Christ the Church of Rome hath given as great cause as any since as * Uix ullum peccatum solâ—… Haeresi exceptá câ—…gitari potest quo illa Sedes â—…urpiter maculata non fucrit maxime ab An 8â—…0 Relect Cont. 1. q. 5. Art 3. Stapleton grants there is scarce any sinne that can be thought by man Heresie only excepted with which that Sea hath not been fouly stained especially from eight hundred yeares after Christ. And he need not except Haeresie into which a Biel in Can. Miss Lect. 23. Biel grants it possible the Bishops of that Sea may fall And †Stel. in S. Luc. c 22 Almain in 3. Sent. d. 24. q. 1 fine Multae sunt Decretales haereticae c. And so they erred as Popes Stella and Almaine gâ—…ant it freely that some of them did fall and so ceased to be Heads of the Church and left Christ God be thanked at that time of his Vicars defection to looke to his Cure himselfe F. But saith he beside Corruption of Manners there were also Errors in Doctrine B. This I spake indeed And can you prove that § 23 I spake not true in this But I added though here againe you are pleased to omit it That some of the errors of the Roman Church were dangerous to salvation For it is not every light Eâ—…ror in Disputable Doctrine and Points of curious Speculation that can bee a just Cause of Separation in that Admirable Body of Christ which is his * Eph. 1. 23. Church or of one Member of it from another For hee gave his Naturall Body to bee rent and torne upon the Crosse that his Mysticall Body might be One. And S. †S. Aug. Ep. 50. Et iterum Colum ba non sunt qui EcclesiaÌ„ dissipant Accipitres sunt Milvi sunt Non laniat Columba c. S. Aug. tract 5. in S. Iohn Augustine inferres upon it That â—…e is no way partaker of Divine Charity that is an enemie to this Vnity Now what Errors in Doctrine may give just Cause of Separation in this Body or the Parts of it one from another were it never so easie to determine as I thinke it is most difficult I would not venture to set it downe in particular least in these times of Discord I might bee thought to open a Doore for Schisme which surely I will never doe unlesse it be to let it out But that there are Errors in Doctrine and some of them such as most manifestly endanger salvation in the Church of Rome is evident to them that will not shut their Eyes The proofe whereof runnes through the Particular Points that are betweene us and so is too long for this Discourse Now here A. C. would faine have a Reason given him Why I did endeavour A. C. p. 55. to shew what Cause
the Protestants had to make that Rent or Division if I did not grant that they made it Why truly in this reasonable demand I will satisfie him I did it partly because I had granted in the generall that Corruption in Manners was no sufficient cause of Separation of one Particular Church from another and therefore it lay upon me at least to Name in generall what was And partly because he and his Partie will needes have it so that we did make the Separation And therefore though I did not grant it yet amisse I thought it could not be to Declare by way of Supposition that if the Protestants did at first Separate from the Church of Rome they had reason so to doe For A. C. himselfe confesses A. C. p. 56. That Error in Doctrine of the Faith is a just Cause of Separation so just as that no Cause is just but that Now had I leasure to descend into Particulars or will to make the Rent in the Church wider 't is no hard matter to proove that the Church of Rome hath erred in the Doctrine of Faith and dangerously too And I doubt I shall afterwards descend to Particulars A. C. his Importunity forcing me to it F. Which when the Generall Church would not Reforme it was lawfull for Particular Churches to Reforme themselves B. Is it then such a strange thing that a Particular § 24 Church may reforme it selfe if the Generall will not I had thought and do so still That in Point of Reformation of either Manners or Doctrine it is lawfull for the Church sinoe Christ to doe as the Church before Christ did and might do The Church before Christ consisted of Iewes and Proselytes This Church came to have a Separation upon a most ungodly Policie of a 3. Reg. 12. 27. Ieroboam's so that it never peeced together againe To a Common Councell to reforme all they would not come Was it not lawfull for Iudah to reforme her selfe when Israel would not joyne Sure it was or els the Prophet deceives me that sayes expresly b Hos. 4. 15. Though Israel transgresse yet let not Iudah sinne And S. Hierome c Super Haereticis prona intelligentia est S. Hier Ibid. expounds it of this very particular sinne of Heresie and Errour in Religion Nor can you say that d Non tamen cessavit Deus populum hunc arguere per Prophetas Nam ibi extiter unt Magni illi insignes Prophetae Elias Elizaeus c. S. Aug. L. 17. de Civit. Dei c. 22. Multi religiosè intra se Dei cultum habebant c. De quo numero eorumvè Posteris septem illa miâ—…ia fuisse statuo qui in Persecutione sub Achabo Deum sibi ab Idololatriâ immunes reservârunt nec genua ante Baal flexerunt Fran. Monceius L. 1. de Vit. Aureo c. 12. Israel from the time of the Separation was not a Church for there were true Prophets in it e 3. Reg. 17. sub Achabo Elias and f 4. Reg. 3. sub Iehoram filio Achabi Elizaeus and others and g 3. Reg. 19. 18. thousands that had not bowed knees to Baal And there was salvation for these which cannot be in the Ordinary way where there is no Church And God threatens h Hos. 9. 17. to cast them away to wander among the Nations and be no Congregation no Church therefore he had not yet cast them away in Non Ecclesiam into No-Church And they are expresly called the People of the Lord in i 4. Reg. 9. 6. Iehu's time and so continued long after Nor can you plead that Iudah is your part and the Ten Tribes ours as some of you doe for if that bee true you must grant that the Multitude and greater number is ours And where then is Multitude your numerous Note of the Church For the Ten Tribes were more then the two But you cannot plead it For certainly if any Calves be set up they are in Dan and in Bethel They are not ours Besides to reforme what is amisse in Doctrine or Manners is as lawfull for a Particular Church as it is to publish and promulgate any thing that is Catholike in either And your Question Quo Judice lies alike against both And yet I thinke it may be proved that the Church of Rome and that as a Particular Church did promulgate an Orthodoxe Truth which was not then Catholikely admitted in the Church namely The Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne If she erred in this Fact confesse her Errour if she erred not why may not another Particular Church doe as shee did A learned Schoole-man of yours saith she may †Non oportuit ad hac cos vocare quum Authoritas fuerit publicandi apud siaâ—… Romanam pracipuè cùm unicuique ctiam particulari Ecclesiaeliceat id quod Catholicum est promulgare Alb. Mag. in 1. Dist. 11. A. 9. The Church of Rome needed not to call the Grecians to agree upon this Truth fince the Authority of publishing it was in the Church of Rome especially since it is lawfull for every particular Church to promulgate that which is Catholike Nor can you say he m anes Catholike as fore determined by the Church in generall for so this Point when Rome added Filioque to the Creed of a Generall Councell was not And how the Grecians were used in the after-Councell such as it was of Florence is not to trouble this Dispute But Catholike stands there for that which is so in the nature of it and Fundamentally Nor can you justly say That the Church of Rome did or might do this by the Pope's Authority over the Church For suppose he have that and that his Sentence be Infallible I say suppose both but I give neither yet neither his Authority nor his Infallibility can belong unto him as the particular Bishop of that Sea but as the * Non errare convenit Papa â—…t est Caput Bell. L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 3. Ministeriall Head of the whole Church And you are all so Iodged in this that †L. 2. de Christo. c. 21. §. Quando autem So you cannot finde Record of your own Truths which are farre more likely to be kept but when Errours are crept in we must bee bound to tell the place and the time and I know not what of their Beginnings or els they are not Errours As if some Errours might not want a Record as well as some Truth Bellarmine professes he can neither tell the yeare when nor the Pope under whom this Addition was made A Particular Church then if you judge it by the Schoole of Rome or the Practice of Rome may publish any thing that is Catholike where the whole Church is silent and may therefore Reforme any thing that is not Catholike where the whole Church is negligent or will not But you are as jealous of the honour of Rome as a
est aut quaelibet alia Ecclesiae communis Generalis Hispaniâ—… Galliciae Synodus celebretur c. Conc. Tolet. 4. Can. 3. They Decree That if there happen a Cause of Faith to be setled a Generall that is a Nationall Synod of all Spaine and Gallicia shall be held thereon And this in the yeare 643. Where you see it was then Catholike Doctrine in all Spaine that a Nationall Synod might be a Competent Iudge in a Cause of Faith And I would faine know what Article of the Faith doth more concerne all Christians in generall then that of Filioque And yet the Church of Rome her selfe made that Addition to the Creed without a Generall Councell as I have shewed e §. 24. Nu. 2. already And if this were practised so often and in so many places why may not a Nationall Councell of the Church of England doe the like as Shee did For Shee cast off the Pope's Vsurpation and as much as in her lay restored the King to his right That appeares by a a The Institution of a Christian man printed An. 1534. Booke subscribed by the Bishops in Henry the eight's time And by the b In Synodo Londinâ—…nsi Sess. 8. Die Veneris 29. Ianuarii An. 1562. Records in the Arch-bishop's Office orderly kept and to be seene In the Reformation which came after our c And so in the Reformation under Hezekiah 2. Chron. 29 under Iosia 4 Reg. 23. And in the time of Reccarcdus King of Spaine the Reformation there proceeded thus Quùm gloriosissimus Princeps omnes Regiminâ—… sui Pontifices in unum convenire mandâ—…sset c. Conâ—…il Tolet. 3. Can. 1. Cùm convemssemus Sacerdotes Domini apud urbem Toletanâ—… ut Râ—…giis imperiis atque jussis commoniti c. Concil Tolet. 4. in princ apud Caraâ—…zam And boâ—…h these Synods did treat of Matters of Faith Princes had their parts and the Clergy theirs And to these Two principally the power and direction for Reformation belongs That our Princes had their parts is manifest by their Calling together of the Bishops and others of the Clergie to consider of that which might seeme worthy Reformation And the Clergie did their part For being thus called together by Regall Power they met in the Nationall Synod of sixty two And the Articles there agreed on were afterwards confirmed by Acts of State and the Royall Assent In this Synod the Positive Truths which are delivered are more then the Polemicks So that a meere Calumnie it is That we professe only a Negative Religion True it is and we must thanke Rome for it our Confession must needs containe some Negatives For we cannot but deny that Images are to be adored Nor can we admit Maimed Sacraments Nor grant Prayers in an unknowne tongue And in a corrupt time or place 't is as necessary in Religion to deny falshood as to assert and vindicate Truth Indeed this latter can hardly be well and sufficiently done but by the former an Affirmative Verity being ever included in the Negative to a Falshood As for any Errour which might fall into this as any other Reformation if any such can be found then I say 't is most true Reformation especially in Cases of Religion is so difficult a worke and subject to so many Pretensions that 't is almost impossible but the Reformers should step too farre or fall too short in some smaller things or other which in regard of the farre greater benefit comming by the Reformation it selfe may well be passed over and borne withall But if there have beene any wilfull and grosse errours not so much in Opinion as in Fact †Quisquis occasione hujus Legis quam Regesterra Christo servientes ad emendandam vestram impietatem promulgaverunt res proprias vestras cupide appetit displicet nobis Quisquis denique ipsas res pauperum vel Baâ—…licas Congregationum c. non per Iustitiam sed per Avaritiamtenet displicet nobis S. Aug. Epist. 48. versus finem Sacriledge too often pretending to reforme Superstition that 's the Crime of the Reformers not of the Reformation and they are long since gone to God to answer it to whom I leave them But now before I go off from this Point I must put you in remembrance too That I spake at that time and so must all that will speak of that Exigent of the Generall Church as it was for the most part forced under the Government of the Romane Sea And this you understand well enough For in your very next words you call it the Romane Church Now I make no doubt but that as the Vniversall Catholike Church would have reform'd her selfe had she beene in all parts freed of the Romane Yoke so while she was for the most in these Westerne parts under that yoke the Church of Rome was if not the Onely yet the Chiefe Hindrance of Reformation And then in this sense it is more then cleare That if the Romane Church will neither Reform nor suffer Reformation it is lawfull for any other Particular Church to Reform it selfe so long as it doth it peaceably and orderly and keeps it selfe to the Foundation and free from * And this a Particular Church may doe but not a Schisme For a Schisme can never be peaceable nor orderly and seldome free from Sacriledge Out of which respects it may be as well as for the grâ—…evousnesse of the Crime S. Aug. cals it Sacrilegium Schismatis L. 1 de Bapt. cont Donat. c. 8. For usually they go together Sacriledge F. I asked Quo Iudice did this appeare to bee so VVhich Question I asked as not thinking it equity that Protestants in their own Cause should be Accusers VVitnesses and Iudges of the Romane Church B You doe well to tell the reason now why you § 25 asked this Question For you did not discover it at the Conference if you had you might then have received your Answer It is most true No man in common equity ought to be suffered to be Accuser Witnesse and Iudge in his owne Cause But is there not as little reason and equity too that any man that is to be accused should be the Accused and yet VVitnesse and Iudge in his owne Cause If the first may hold no man shall be Innocent and if the last none will be Nocent And what doe we here with in their owne Cause against the Romane Church Why Is it not your owne too against the Protestant Church And if it be a Cause common to both as certaine it is then neither Part alone may be Iudge If neither alone may judge then either they must be judged by a * §. 21. Nu. 9. Third which stands indifferent to both and that is the Scripture or if there be a jealousie or Doubt of the sense of the Scripture they must either both repaire to the Exposition of the Primitive Church and submit to that or both call and submit to a Generall
plus satis indultum esse it à ut ad summam ador ationem qua vel à Paganis suis simulacris exhiberi consuevit c. Cassand Consult Art 21. C. De Imaginibus Where he names diverse of your owne as namely Durantus Mimatensis Episcopus Iohn Billet Gerson Durand Holkot and Biel rejecting the Opinion of Thomas and other superstitions concerning Images Ibid. Cassander who lived and died in your Communion sayes it expresly That in this present Case of the Adoration of Images you came full home to the Superstition of the Heathen And secondly for Reason I have I think too much to give that the Moderne Church of Rome is growne too like to Paganisme in this Point For the e Non quod Credatur inesse aliqua in iis Divinitas veluti olim fiebat à Gentibuâ—… Conc. Trid. Sess. 25. Decret de Invocat Councell of Trent it selfe confesses That to believe there 's any Divinity in Images is to do as the Gentiles did by their Idols And though in some words afterthe Fathers of that Councell seeme very religiously carefull that all f Et rudibus periculosi Erroris Occasionem c. Ibid. Occasion of dangerous Errour be prevented yet the Doctrine it selfe is so full of danger that it workes strongly both upon the Learned and Unlearned to the scandall of Religion and the perverting of Truth For the Unlearned first how it workes upon them by whole Countries together you may see by what happened in Asturia Cantabria Galetia no small parts of Spaine For there the People so * Et adeâ—… Gens affeâ—…a est truncis corrosis deformibus Imaginibus ut me teste quotres Episcopi decentiores ponere jubent veteres suas petant plorantes c Hieton 〈◊〉 summa p. 3. c. 3. He tels me that was an Eye witnesse and that since the Councell of Trent are so addicted to their worme eaten and deformed Images that when the Bishops commanded new and handsommer Images to be set up in their roomes the poore people cried for their old would not looke up to their new as if they did not represent the same thing And though he say this is by little and little amended yet I believe there 's very little Amendment And it workes upon the Learned too more then it should For it wrought so farre upon Lamas himselfe who bemoaned the former Passage as that he delivers this Doctrine †Imagines Christi S Matris ejus Sanctorum non sunt venerandae acsi in ipsis Imaginibus esset Divinitas secundùm quod sunt Materia Arte essigiata non secundùm quod repraesentant Christum Sanctos c. Sic enim adorare vel petere aliquid ab iis esset Idololaâ—… tria Lamas Ibid. That the Images of Christ the Blessed Virgin and the Saints are not to be worshipped as if there were any Divinity in the Images as they are materiall things made by Art but only as they represent Christ and the Saints For els it were Idolatry So then belike according to the Divinity of this Casuist a man may worship Images and aske of them and put his trust in them as they Represent Christ and the Saints For so there is Divinity in them though not as Things yet as Representers And what I pray did or could any Pagan Priest say more then this For the Proposition resolved is this The Images of Christ and the Saints as they represent their Exemplars have Deity or Divinity in them And now I pray A. C. doe you be Iudge whether this Proposition do not teach Idolatry And whether the Moderne Church of Rome be not growne too like to Paganisme in this Point For my owne part I heartily wish it were not And that men of Learning would not straine their wits to spoile the Truth and rent the Peace of the Church of Christ by such dangerous such superstitious vanities For better they are not but they may be worse Nay these and their like have given so great a Scandall among us to some ignorant though I presume well meaning men that they are afraid to testifie their Duty to God even in Quis ferat populum in Templum irruentem câ—…ù in haraÌ„ Sues Certe non obsunt populo Ceremoniae sed prosunt si modus in câ—… servetur Cavcaâ—… nè 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 loco habeantur hoc est ne praecipuam pictatem in illis collocemus Rhen. annot in Tertul. de Cor. Mil. his owne House by any Outward Gesture at all In so much that those very Ceremonies which by the Iudgement of Godly and Learned men have now long continued in the practice of this Church suffer hard measure for the Romish Superstitions sake But I will conclude this Point with the saying of B. Rhenanus Who could indure the people sayes hee rushing into the Church like Swine into a Stye Doubtlesse Ceremonies doe not hurt the people but profit them so there be a meane kept and the By be not put for the Maine that is so we place not the principall part of our Piety in them The Conference growes to an end and I must meet it againe ere we part For you say F. After this we all rising the Lady asked the B. whether she might be saved in the Romane Faith He answered She might B. What Not one †Cave nè dum vis alium not are Culpae ipse noteris Calumniae S. Hâ—…er L. 3. advers Pelagianos Answer perfectly related § 34 My Answer to this was Generall for the ignorant that could not discerne the Errours of that Church so they held the Foundation and conformed themselves to a Religious life But why do you not speake out what I added in this Particular That it must needs go harder with the Lady even in Point of Salvation because she had beene brought to understand very much for one of her Condition in these Controverted Causes of Religion And a Person that comes to know much had need carefully bethinke himselfe that he oppose not knowne Truth against the Church that made him a Christian. For Salvation may be in the Church of Rome and yet they not finde it that make surest of it Here A. C. is as confident as A. C. p. 64. the Iesuite himselfe That I said expresly That the Lady might be saved in the Romane Faith Truly 't is too long since now for me to speake any more then I have already upon my memory But this I am sure of That whatsoever I said of her were it never so particular yet was it under the Conditions before expressed F. I bad her marke that B. This Answer I am sure troubles not § 35 you But it seemes you would faine have it lay a load of envie upon mee that you professe you bad the Lady so carefully marke that Well you bad her Marke that For what For some great matter or for some new Not for some New sure For the
but so not as it is the Baptisme of Hereticks but as it is the Baptisme of Christ. Iust as we approve the Baptisme of Adulterers Idolaters Witches and yet not as'tis theirs but as 't is Christs Baptisme For none of these for all their Baptisme shall inherit the Kingdome of God And the Apostle reckons Hereticks among them a Gal. 5. 19. 20. 21. Galat. 5. And againe afterwards It is not therefore yours saith †Non ergo vestrum est quod dâ—…struere metuimus sed Christi quod in 〈◊〉 per se 〈◊〉 est S. Aug. Ibid. Saint Augustine which wee feare to destroy but Christs which even among the Sacrilegious is of and in it selfe holy Now you shall see how full this comes home to our Petilianist A. C. for hee is one of the Contracters of the Church of Christ to Rome as the Donatists confined it to Africke And he cries out That a Possibility of Salvation A. C. p. 6â—… is a free Confession of the Adversaries and is of force against them and to bee thought extorted from them by force of Truth it selfe I Answer I doe indeed for my part leaving other men free to their owne judgement acknowledge a Possibility of Salvation in the Romane Church But so as that which I grant to Romanists is not as they are Romanists but as they are Christians that is as they believe the Creed and hold the Foundation Christ himselfe not as they associate themselves wittingly and knowingly to the grosse Superstitions of the Romish Church Nor doe I feare to destroy quod ipsorum est that which is theirs but yet I dare not proceed so roughly as with theirs or for theirs to deny or weaken the Foundation which is Christs even among them and which is and remaines holy even in the midst of their Superstitions And I am willing to hope there are many among them which keep within that Church and yet wish the Superstitions abolished which they know and which pray to God to forgive their errours in what they know not and which hold the Foundation firme and live accordingly and which would have all things amended that are amisse were it in their power And to such I dare not deny a Possibility of Salvation for that which is Christs in them though they hazzard themselves extremely by keeping so close to that which is Superstition and in the Case of Images comes too neare Idolatry Nor can A. C. shift this A. C. p. 66. off by adding living and dying in the Romane Church For this living and dying in the Romane Church as is before expressed cannot take away the Possibility of Salvation from them which believe and repent of whatsoever is errour or sinne in them be it sinne knowne to them or be it not But then perhaps A. C. will reply that if this be so I must then maintaine that a Donatist also living and dying in Schisme might be saved To which I answer two wayes First that a plaine honest Donatist having as is confessed true Baptisme and holding the Foundation as for ought I know the †For though Prateolus will make Donatus and from him the Donatists to be guilty of an impious Heresie I doubt he meanes Arrianisme though he name it not in making the Sonne of God lesse then the Father and the Holy Ghost lesse then the Sonne L. 4. de Haeres Har. 14. yet these things are most manifest out of S. Aug. concerning them who lived with them both in time and place and understood them and their Tenets farre better then Prateolus could And first S. Aug. tels us concerning them Arriani Patris Filii Spiritus Sancti diversas substantias esse dicunt Donatista autem unam Trinitatis substantiam confitentur So they are no Arrians Secondly Si aliqui corum minorem Filium esse dixerunt quà m Pater est ejusdem tamen substantiae non negârunt But this is but si aliqui if any so 't was doubtfull this too though Prateolus delivers it positively Thirdly Plurimi verò in iis hoc se dicunt omnino credere de Patre Filio Spiritu Sancto quod Cathilica credit Ecclesia Necipsa cum illis vertitur Questio sed de sola Communione infoeliciter litigant c. De sola Onely about the Vnion with the Church Therefore they erred not in Fundamentall Points of Faith And Lastly All that can farther be said against them is That some of them to win the Goths to them when they were powerfull said Hoc se Credere quod illi Credunt Now the Goths for the most were Arrians But then saith S. Aug. they were but nonnulli some of them And of this some it was no more Certaine then sicut audivimus as we have heard S. Aug. knew it not And then if it were true of some yet Majorum suorum Authoritate convincuntur Quia nec Donatus ipse sic credidisse asseritur de cujus parte se esse gloriantur S Aug. Epist. 50. Where Prateolus is againe deceived for he sayes expresly that Donatus affirmed the Sonne to be lesse then the Father Impius ille asserebat c. But then indeed and which perchance deceived Prateolus beside Donatus the founder of this Heresie there was another Donatus who succeeded Majorinus at Carthage and he was guilty of the Heresie which Prateolus mentions Et extant scripta ejus ubi apparet as S. Aug. confesses L. 1. de Haereâ—… Har. 69. But then S. Aug. adds there also nec facilè in iis quisquam that scarce any of the Donatists did so much as know that this Donatus held that Opinion much lesse did they believe it themselves S. Aug. Ibid. Donatists did and repenting of what ever was sinne in him and would have repented of the Schisme had it beene known to him might be saved Secondly that in this Particular the Romanist and the Donatist differ much And that therefore it is not of necessary coÌ„sequence that if a Romanist now upon the Conditions before expressed may be saved Therefore a Donatist heretofore might For in regard of the Schisme the Donatist was in one respect worse and in greater danger of damnation then the Romanist now is And in an other respect better and in lesse danger The Donatist was in greater danger of damnation if you consider the Schisme it selfe then for they brake from the Orthodox Church without any cause given them And here it doth not follow if the Romanist have a Possibility of Salvation therefore a Donatist hath But if you consider the Cause of the Schisme now then the Donatist was in lesse danger of Damnation then the Romanist is Because the Church of Rome gave the first and the greatest cause of the Schisme as is prooved †§. 21. N. c. before And therefore here it doth not follow That if a Donatist have possibility of Salvation Therefore a Romanist hath For a lesser Offender may have that possibility of safety
A RELATION OF The Conference BETWEENE WILLIAM LAWD Then L rd Bishop of S t. DAVIDS NOW Lord Arch-Bishop of CANTERBVRY And M r. Fisher the Jesuite by the Command of KING JAMES of ever Blessed Memorie VVith an Answer to such Exceptions as A. C. takes against it By the sayd Most Reverend Father in GOD WILLIAM Lord Arch-Bishop of CANTERBURY LONDON Printed by Richard Badger Printer to the PRINCE HIS HIGHNES MDCXXXIX TO HIS MOST Sacred Majesty CHARLES BY THE GRACE OF God King of Great Britaine France and Ireland Defender of the Faith c. DREAD SOVERAIGNE THIS Tract will need Patronage as great as may be had that 's Yours Yet when I first printed part of it I presumed not to aske any but thrust it out at the end of anothers Labours that it might seem at least to have the same Patron your Royall Father of Blessed Memory as the other Worke on which this attended had But now I humbly beg for it Your Majesties Patronage And leave withall that I may declare to Your most Excellent Majestie the Cause why this Tract was then written VVhy it stay'd so long before it looked upon the light Why it was not then thought fit to go alone but rather be led abroad by the former VVorke VVhy it comes now forth both with Alteration and Addition And why this Addition made not more haste to the Presse then it hath done The Cause why this Discourse was written was this I was at the time of these Conferences with Master Fisher Bishop of S. Davids And not onely directed but Commanded by my Blessed Master King Iames to this Conference with him He a May 24. 1622 when we met began with a great Protestation of seeking the Truth onely and that for it selfe And certainly Truth especially in Religion is so to be sought or not to be found He that seeks it with a Roman * One of these 〈◊〉 is an 〈◊〉 from all â—…ch Truth as fittes not our Ends. And â—…rsus à 〈…〉 c Bias or any * Aug. l. 2. cont 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Prophet And 't is an 〈◊〉 Transition for a man that 〈◊〉 Aversâ—… from 〈◊〉 become Ad. 〈…〉 to the â—…ruth Other will run Counter when he comes neare it and not finde it though he come within kenning of it And therefore I did most heartily wish I could have found the Iesuite upon that faire way he protested to go After the Conference ended I went whither my duty called me to my Diocesse not suspecting any thing should be made Publike that was both Commanded and acted in private For VV. I. the Publisher of the Relation of the first Conference with D. VVhite the late Reverend and learned Bishop of Ely b In his Epistle 〈◊〉 the Reader confesses plainly That Master Fisher was straightly charged upon his Allegiance from his Majesty that then was not to set out or Publish what passed in some of these Conferences till He gave Licence and untill M. Fisher and they might meet and agree and Confirme under their hands what was said on both sides He sayes farther that a Ibid. M. Fisher went to D. White 's house to know what he would say about the Relation which he had set out So then belike M. Fisher had set out the Relation of that Conference before he went to D. VVhite to speak about it And this notwithstanding the Kings restraint upon him upon his Allegiance Yet to D. VVhite 't is said he went but to what other End then to put a Scorne upon him I cannot see For he went to his house to know what he would say about that Relation of the Conference which he had set out before In my absence from London M. Fisher used me as well For with the same Care of his Allegiance and no more b These words were in my former Epistle And A. C. cheeks at them in defence of the Jesuite and sayes That the Jesuite did not at all so much as in Speech and much lesse in Papers publish thâ—… or either of the other two Conferences with Dr. White till he was forc'd unto it by false reports given out to his private disgrace and the prejudice of the Catholike Cause Nor then did he spread Papers abroad but onely delivered a very few Copies to speciall friends and this not with an intent to Calumniate the Bishop c. A. C. in his Preface before his Relation of this Conference Truly I knew of no Reports then given out to the prejudice of the Jesuite's either Person or Cause I was in a Corner of the Kingdome where I heard little But howsoever here 's a most plaine Confession by A. C. of that which he struggles to deny He sayes he did not spread Papers What then What Why he did but deliver Copies Why but doth not he that delivers Copies for Instance of a Libell spread it Yea but he delivered but a very few Copies Be it so I doe not say How many he spred He confesses the Iesuite delivered some though very few And he that delivers any spreads it abroad For what can he tell when the Copies are once out of his power how many may Copie them out and spread them farther Yea but he delivered them to speciall friends Be it so too The more speciall friends they were to him the lesse indifferent would they be to me perhaps my more speciall Enemies Yea but all this was without an intent to Calumniate me Well Be that so too But if I be Calumniated thereby his Intention will not helpe it And whether the Copies which he delivered have not in them Calumny against me I leave to the Indifferent Reader of this Discourse to Iudge hee spred abroad Papers of this Conference full enough of partiality to his Cause and more full of Calumny against me Hereupon I was in a manner forced to give M. Fisher's Relation of the Conference an Answer and to publish it Though for some Reasons and those then approved by Authority it was thought fit I should set it out in my Chaplain's Name R. B. and not in my owne To which I readily submitted There was a Cause also why at the first the Discourse upon this Conference stayed so long before it could endure to be pressed For the Conference was in May 1622. And M. Fisher's Paper was scattered and made common so common that a Copy was brought to mee being none of his speciall friends before Michaelmas And yet this Discourse was not printed till Aprill 1624. Now that you may know how this happened I shall say for my selfe It was not my Idlenesse nor my Unwillingnesse to right both my selfe and the Cause against the Jesuite and the Paper which he had spred that occasion'd this delay For I had then Most Honourable VVitnesses and have some yet living That this Discourse such as it was when A. C. nibled at it was finished long before I could perswade my selfe to let it come into Publike View
wont to have more respect than so If His Majestie did say it there is Truth in the speech The error is yours only by mistaking what is meant by Loosing the Holy Ghost For a Particular Church may be said to loose the Holy Ghost two wayes or in two Degrees 1. The one when it looses such speciall assistance of that Blessed Spirit as preserves it from all dangerous Errors and sinnes and the temporall punishment which is due unto them And in this sense the Greeke Church did perhaps loose the Holy Ghost for they erred against Him they sinned against God And for this or other sinnes they were delivered into another Babylonish Captivity under the Turke in which they yet are and from which God in his mercy deliver them But this is rather to be called an Error circa Spiritum Sanctum about the Doctrine concerning the Holy Ghost then an error against the Holy Ghost 2. The other is when it looses not only this assistance but all assistance ad hoc to this that they may remaine any longer a true Church and so Corinth and Ephesus and divers other Churches have lost the Holy Ghost But in this sense the whole Greeke Church lost not the Holy Ghost For they continue a true Church in the maine substance to and at this day though erroneous in this Poynt which you mention and perhaps in some other too F. The Ladies friend not knowing what to answer called in the Bishop who sitting downe first excused himselfe as one unprovided and not much studied in Controversies and desiring that in Case he should faile yet the Protestant Cause might not be thought ill of B. This is most true For I did indeed excuse § 6 my selfe and I had great reason so to doe And my Reason being grounded upon Modestie for the most part there I leave it Yet this it may be fit others should know that I had no information where the other Conferences brake off no instruction at all what should be the ground of this third Conference nor the full time of foure and twenty hourâ—…s to bethinke my selfe And this I take upon my Credit is most true whereas you make the sifting of these and the like Questions to the very Branne your daily work and came throughly furnished to the businesse and might so leade on the Controversie to what your selfe pleased and I was to follow as I could * De util Credendi c. 2. S. Augustine said once Scio me invalidum esse I know I am weake and yet he made good his Cause And so perhaps may I against you And in that I prefer'd the Cause before my particular credit that which I did was with modesty and according to Reason For there is no Reason the waight of this whole Cause should rest upon any one particular man And great Reason that the personall Defects of any man should presse himselfe but not the Cause Neither did I enter upon this Service out of any forwardnesse of my owne but commanded to it by Supreame Authority F. It having an hundred better Schollers to maintaine it than he To which I said there were a thousand better Schollers than I to maintaine the Catholike Cause B. In this I had never so poore a Conceit of the Protestants Cause as to thinke that they had § 7 but an hundred better than my selfe to maintaine it That which hath an hundred may have as many more as it pleases God to give and more than you And I shall ever bee glad that the Church of England which at this time if my memory reflect not amisse I named may have farre more able Defendants than my selfe I shall never envie them but rejoyce for Her And I make no Question but that if I had named a thousand you would have multiplied yours into ten Thousand for the Catholike Cause as you call it And this Confidence of yours hath ever beene fuller of noyse than Proofe But you proceed F. Then the Question about the Greeke Church being proposed I said as before That it had erred B. Then I thinke the Question about the § 8 Greeke Church was proposed But after you had with confidence enough not spared to say That what I would not acknowledge in this Cause you would wring and extort from me then indeed you said as before that it had erred And this no man denied But every Errour denies not Christ the Foundation or makes Christ denie it or thrust it from the Foundation F. The Bishop said That the Errour was not in Point Fundamentall B. I was not so peremptory My speech § 9 was That diverse Learned men and some of your owne were of opinion That as the Greeks expressed themselves it was a Question not simply Fundamentall I know and acknowledge that Errour of denying the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne to be a grievous errour in Divinity And sure it would have grated the Foundation if they had so denied the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne as that they had made an inequality betweene the Persons But since their forme of speech is a Non ex Filio sed Spiritum Filii esse diâ—…imus Damascon L. 1. Fid. Orth. c. 11. Et Patris per filium Ibid. That the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father by the Sonne and is the Spirit of the Sonne without making any difference in the Consubstantiality of the Persons I dare not denie them to bee a true Church for this though I confesse them an Erroneous Church in this Particular Now that diverse learned men were of Opinion That à Filio per Filium in the sense of the Greeke Church was but a Question in modo loquendi in manner of b Pluralitas in Uoce salvat â unitate in re non repugnat uniâ—…ati Fidei Durand Lib. 3. d. 25. q. 2. speech and therefore not Fundamentall is evident c Magist. 1. Sent. d. 11. D. Sane sciendum est quòd licet in praesenti Articulo a nobis Graeci verbo discordent tamen sensu non differunt c. Bandinus L. 1. de Trin. d. 11 Bonavent in 1 Sent. d. 11. A. 1. q. 1. §. 12. Licet Graecis infensissimus quùm dixit Graeces objicere curiâ—…sitatem Romanis addendo I ilioque Quia sine hujus Articuli professione salus er at non Respondet negando salutem esse sed dicit tantùm opportunam fuisse Determinationem propter periculum Et postea §. 15. Sunt qui volunt sustinere opinionem Graecorum Latinorum distinguendo duplicem modum Procedendi Sed fortè si duo sapientes unus Graecus alter Latinus uterque verus amator Veritatis non propriae dictionis c. de hac visa contrarietate disquirerent pateret utique tandem ipsâ—…m Contrarietatem non esse veraciter realem sicut est Vocalis Scotus in 1. Sent. d. 11. q. 1. Antiquorum Graecorum à Latinis diserepantia in voce potiùs est modo
Omninò rectè nisi excepisset c. Nec consideravit quanti refer at concedere Ecclesiis particularibus jus condendâ—…rum Canonum de Fide inconsult â Romanà Sede quod nunquam licuit nunquam factum est c. Capell de Appellat Ecol Africanae c. 2. Nu. 12. Capellus is who is angry with Baronius about certaine Canons in the second Milevitâ—…ne Councell and saith That he considered not of what consequence it was to grant to Particular Churches the Power of making Caâ—…ons of Faith without consulting the Romane Sea which as he saith and you with him was never lawfull nor ever done But suppose this were so my Speech was not Not consulting but in Case of Neglecting or Refusing Or when the difficulty of Time and Place or other Circumstances are such that a b Rex confitetur se vocâsse Concilium tertium Toletanum Quia decurâ—…s retrò temporibus Haeresis imminens in tota Ecclesia Catholica agere Synodica Negotia denegabat c. Concil Toletan tertium Can. 1. Generall Councell cannot be called or not convene For that the Romane Sea must be consulted with before any Reformation bee made First most certaine it is Capellus can never proove And secondly as certaine that were it proved and practised we should have no Reformation For it would be long enough before the Church should be cured if that Sea alone should be her Physitian which in truth is her Disease Now if for all this you will say still That a Provinciall Councell will not suffice but we should have borne with Things till the time of a Generall Councell First 't is true a Generall Councell free and entire would have beene the best Remedy and most able for a Gangrene that had spread so farre and eaten so deepe into Christianity But what Should we have suffered this Gangren to endanger life and all rather then bee cured in time by a Physitian of a weaker knowledge and a lesse able Hand Secondly We live to see since if we had stayed and expected a Generall Councell what manner of one we should have had if any For that at Trent was neither generall nor free And for the Errours which Rome had contracted it confirmed them it cured them not And yet I much doubt whether ever that Councell such as it was would have beene called if some Provinciall and Nationall Synods under Supreme and Regall Power had not first set upon this great worke of Reformation Which I heartily wish had in all places beene as Orderly and Happily pursued as the Worke was right Christian and good in it selfe But humane frailty and the Heats and Distempers of men as well as the Cunning of the Divell would not suffer that For even in this sense also The wrath of man doth not accomplish the will of God S. Iames 1. But I have learned S. Iames 1. 20. not to reject the Good which God hath wrought for any Evill which men may fasten to it And yet if for all this you thinke 't is better for us to be blinde then to open our owne eyes let me tell you very Grave and Learned Men and of your owne Party have taught me That when the Vniversall Church will not or for the Iniquities of the Times cannot obtaine and settle a free generall Councell 't is lawfull nay sometimes necessary to Reforme grosse Abuses by a Nationall or a Provinciall For besides Alb. Magnus whom I quoted a §. 24. Nu. 2. before Gerson the Learned and Devout Chancellour of Paris tels us plainly b Nolo tamen dicere quin in multis partibus possit Ecclesia per suas partes reformari Imò hoc necesse esset sed ad hoc agendum sufficerent Concilia Provincialia c Gerson tract de Gen. Concil unius obedientia parte 1. p. 222. F. That he will not deny but that the Church may be reformed by parts And that this is necessary and that to effect it Provinciall Councels may suffice And in somethings Diocesan And againe c Omnes Ecclesiae status aut in Gonerali Concilio reformetis aut 〈◊〉 Conciliis Provincialibus reformari mandetis Gerson Declarat Defectuum Virorum Ecclesiasticorum par 1. pag. 209. B. Either you should reforme all Estates of the Church in a Generall Councell or command them to be reformed in Provinciall Councels Now Gerson lived about two hundred yeares since But this Right of Provinciall Synods that they might decree in Causes of Faith and in Cases of Reformation where Corruptions had crept into the Sacraments of Christ was practised much above a thousand yeares ago by many both Nationall and Provinciall Synods For the d Concil Rom. 2. sub Sylvestro Councell at Rome under Pope Sylvester An 324. condemned Photinus and Sabellius And their Heresies were of high Nature against the Faith The e Concil Gang. Can. 1. Councell at Gangra about the same time condemned Eustathius for his condemning of Marriage as unlawfull The f Con. Carth. 1. Can. 1. first Councell at Carthage being a Provinciall condemned Rebaptization much about the yeare â—…48 The g Con. Aquiliens Provinciall Councell at Aquileia in the yeare 381. in which S. Ambrose was present condâ—…mned Pallâ—…dius and Secundinus for embracing the Arrian Heresie The h Con. Carth. 2. Can. 1. second Councell of Carthage handled and Decreed the Beliefe and Preaching of the Trinity And this a little after the yeare 424. The i Quaedam de causis fidei unde nunc quaestio Pelagianorum imminet in hoc 〈◊〉 sanctissimo primitus tractentur c. Aurel Carthaginensis in Praefat. Conc. Milevit apud 〈◊〉 Councell of Milevis in Africa in which S. Augustine was present condemned the whole Course of the Horesie of Pelagius that greatand bewitching Heresie in the yeare 416. The a Con. Aurausican 2. Can. 1 2 6. second Councell at Orang a Provinciall too handled the great Controversies about Grace and Free-will and set the Church right in them in the yeare 444 The b Con. Tolet. 3. third Councell at Toledo a Nationall one in the yeare 589. determined many things against the Arrian Heresie about the very Prime Articles of Faith under fourteene severall Anathema's The fourth Councell at Toledo did not onely handle Matters of Faith for the Reformation of that People c Que omnia in aliis Symbolis explicitè tradita non sunt Conc. Tolet. 4. Can. 1. but even added also some things to the Creed which were not expresly delivered in former Creeds Nay the Bishops did not onely practise this to Condemne Heresies in Nationall and Provinciall Synods and so Reforme those severall Places and the Church it selfe by parts But They did openly challenge this as their Right and Due and that without any leave asked of the Sea of Rome For in this Fourth Councell of Toledo d Statuimus ut saltem semel in Anno à Nobis Concilium celebretur it à tamen ut si Fideâ—… Câ—…usa
the Romane Church with his Colleagues the Transmarine Bishops non debuit ought not usurpe to himselfe this Iudgment which was determined by seventy African Bishops Tigisitanus sitting Primate â—…nd what will you say if he did not usurpe this Power For the Emperour being desired sent Bishops Iudges which should sit with him and determine what was just upon the whole Cause In which Passage there are very many things Observeable As first that the Romane Prelate came not in till there was leave for them to go to Transmarine Bishops Secondly that if the Pope had come in without this Leave it had been an Usurpation Thirdly that when he did thus come in not by his owne Proper Authority but by Leave there were other Bishops made Iudges with him Fourthly that these other Bishops were appointed and sent by the Emperour and his Power that which the Pope will least of all indure Lastly least the Pope and his Adherents should say this was an Usurpation in the Emperour * Ad cujus Cuvanâ—…ds quâ rationem Deo redditurus est res illa maximè pertinebat S. Aug. Epist 162. S. Augustine tels us a little before in the same Epistle still that this doth chiefly belong ad Curam ejus to the Emperours Care and charge and that He is to give an Account to God for it And Melciades did sit and Iudge the Businesse with all Christian Prudence and Moderation So at this time the Romane Prelate was not received as Pastour of the whole Church say A. C. what he please Nor had he any Supremacy over the other Patriarchs And for this were all other Records of Antiquity silent the Civill Law is proofe enough And that 's a Monument of the Primitive Church The Text there is †Nam contra horum Antistitum de Patriarchis loquitur Sententias non esse locum Appellationi à Majoribus nostris â—…itutum est â—…od L 1. Tit. 4. L. 29. ex â—…ditions Gothofredi Si non rata habuerit â—…traque Pars qua judicata sunt tunc Beatissimns Patriarcha Dioceseôs illius â—…ter eos audiat c. Nullâ parte ejus Sententiae contradicere valente Authen Coâ—…at 9. Tit. 15. C. 22. A Patriarchâ non datur Appellatio From a Patriarch there lies no Appeale No Appeale Therefore every Patriarch was alike Supreme in his owne Patriarchate Therefore the Pope then had no Supremacie over the whole Church Therefore certainely not then received as Universall Pastour And S. Gregory himselfe speaking of Appeales and expresly citing the Lawes themselves sayes plainly * Et ille scilicet Patriarcha secundum Canones Leges prâ—…bent finem And there hee cites the Novell its selfe S. Greg. L. 11. Judict 6. Epist. 54. That the Patriarch is to put a finall end to those Causes which come before him by Appeale from Bishops and Archbishops but then he adds a Si dictum fuâ—…it quòd nec Metropolitanum habeat nec Patriarcham dicendum est quòd à Sede Apostolicâ quae omnium Ecclesiarum Caput est causa andienda est c. S. Greg. Ibid. That where there is nor Metropolitan nor Patriarch of that Diocesse there they are to have recourse to the Sea Apostolike as being the Head of all Churches Where first this implies plainely That if there bee a Metropolitan or a Patriarch in those Churches his Iudgement is finall and there ought to be no Appeale to Rome Secondly 'T is as plaine That in those Ancient times of the Church-Government Britaine was never subject to the Sea of Rome For it was one of the b Notitia Provinciarum Occidentalium per Guidum Pancirolum l. 2. c. 48. Sixe Diocesses of the West Empire and had a Primate of its owne Nay c Hunc cunctis Liberalium Artium disciplinis eruditum pro Magistro teneamus quasi Comparem velut alterius Orbis Apostolicum Patriarcham c. Io. Capgravius de Vitis Sanctorum in vitâ S. Anselmi Et Guil. Malmesburiens de Gestis Pontificum Anglorum p. 223. Edit Francof 1601. Iohn Capgrave one of your owne and Learned for those times and long before him William of Malmesburie tell us That Pope Urbane the second at the Councell held at Bari in Apulia accounted my Worthy Predecessour S. Anselme as his owne Compeere and said he was as the Apostolike and Patriarch of the other world So he then termed this Iland Now the Britains having a Primate of their owne which is greater then a Metropolitan yea a d Ibi Cantuariae id est prima Sedes Archiepiscopi habetur qui est totius Anglia Primas Patriarcha Guil. Malmesburiensis in Prolog Lib. 1. de Gestis Pontificum Anglorum p. 195. Patriarch if you will He could not be Appealed from to Rome by S. Gregorie's owne Doctrine Thirdly it will be hard for any man to proove there were any Churches then in the World which were not under some either Patriarch or Metropolitane Fourthly if any such were 't is gratis dictum and impossible to be proved that all such Churches where ever seated in the world were obliged to depend on Rome For manifest it is that the Bishops which were Ordained in places without the Limits of the Romane Empire which places they commonly called * praterea qui sunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Baâ—…barico Episcopi à Sanctissimo Throno Sanctissima Constantinopolitanae Ecclesia Ordinentur Codex Canonum Ecclesia universae Can. 206. And Iustellus proves it there at large that by in Barbarico in that Canon is meant In Solo Barbarorum Annot. Ibid. Barbarous were all to be Ordained and therefore most probable to be governed by the Patriarch of Constantinople And for Rome's being the Head of all Churches I have said enough to that in diverse parts of this Discourse And since I am thus fallen upon the Church of Africk I shall borrow another reason from the Practice of that Church why by Principatus S. Augustine neither did nor could meane any Principality of the Church or Bishop of Rome over the Whole Church of Christ. For as the Acts of Councels and Stories go the African Prelates finding that all succeeding Popes were not of Melciades his temper set themselves to assert their owne Liberties and held it out stoutly against Zozimus Boniface the first and Caelestine the first who were successively Popes of Rome At last it was concluded in the sixt Councell of Carthage wherein were assembled two hundred and seventeene Bishops of which S. Augustine himselfe was one that they would not give way to such a manifest incroachment upon their Rights and Liberties and thereupon gave present notice to Pope Coelestine to forbeare sending his Officers amongst them †Ne fâ—…mosum typhum seculi in Ecclesiam Christi videatur inducere c. Epist Conc. Afric ad Papam Coelestinum primum Apud Nicolin To. 1. Concil p. 844. least he should seeme to induce the swelling pride of the world into
Ecclestam rumperet Nam Alexandriae à Marco Evangelista â—…resbyteri semper unum ex seclectum in excellenttori gradu col ocatum Episcopum nominabant c. S. Hieron in Epist. ad Evagrium So even according to S. Hieroâ—… Bishops had a very ancient and honourable descent in the Church from S. Marke the Euangelist And about the end of the same Epistle he acknowledges it Traditionem esse Apostolicam Nay mo e then so He afhimes plainly That Vli non est Saccrdos non est Ecclesia S. Hiéron advers Luciferian And in that place most manifelt iâ—… is that S. Icrom by Sacerdos means a Bishop For he speaks de Sacerdote qui potestatem habet Ordinandi which in S. Ienomes owne Iudgement no meere Priest had but a Bishop only S. Hier. Epist à d Evagrium So even with him no Bishop and no Church S. Ierome tels us Though being none himselfe hee was no great friend to Bishops And this was so setled in the mindes of men from the very Infancy of the Christian Church as that it had not been to that time contradicted by any So that then there was no Controversie about the Calling all agreed upon that The only Difficulty was to accommodate the Places and Precedencies of Bishops among themselves for the very Necessity of Order and Government To doe this the most equall and impartiall way was That as the Church is in the Common-wealth not the Common-wealth in it as * Non â—…nim Respub est in Ecclesià sed Ecclesia in Repub. Optat. L. 3. Optatus telles us So the Honours of the Church should a Conc. Calced Can. 9. Actio 16. follow the Hon urs of the State And so it was insinuated if not Ordered as appeares by the Canons of the Councels of Chalcedon and Antioch And this was the very fountaine of Papall Greatnesse the Pope having his Residence in the great Imperiall City But Precedency is one thing and Authority is another It was thought fit therefore though as b S. Cyprian L. de Simp Pralat S. Cyprian speakes Episcopatus unus est the Calling of a Bishop be one and the same that yet among Bishops there should be a certaine Subordination and Subjection The Empire therefore being cast into severall Divisions which they then called Diocesses every Diocesse contained severall Provinces every Province severall Bishopricks The Chiefe of a Dioc sse in that larger sense was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and sometimes a Patriarch The Chiefe of a Province a Metropolitane Next the Bishops in their severall Diocesses as we now use that word Among These there was effectuall subjection respectively grounded upon Canon and Positive Law in their severall Quarters But over them none at all All the Difference there was but Honorary not Autoritative If the Ambition of some particular persons did attempt now and then to breake these Bounds it is no marvel For no Calling can sanctifie all that have it And Socrates tâ—…lles us That in this way the Bishops of Alexandria and Rome advanced themselves to a great height 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 even beyond the quality of Bishops Now upon view of Story it will appeare that what advantage accrewed to Alexandria was gotten by the violence of Theophilus Patriarch there A man of exceeding great Learning and of no lesse violence and he made no little advantage out of this That the Empresse â—…udoxia used his helpe for the casting of S. Chrylostome out of Constantinople But the Roman Prelates grew by a steddy and constant watch fulnesse upon all Occasions to increase the Honour of that Sea Interposing and * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ut alunt sivese jaclat esse Greg. Naz. Carm. de vitasua p. 26. assuming to themselves to be Uindices Canonum as S. Gregory Naz. speaks Defenders and Restorers of the Canons of the Church which was a faire pretence and took extremely well But yet the world tooke notice of this their aime For in all Contestations between the East and the West w ch were nor smal nor few the Western Bishops objected Levity to the Eastern And they again Arrogancy to the Bishops of the West as †Orientalibut levitas Occidet alibus arrogantia invicem objecta est Bilius Annot in S. Gregor Naz. Vitam Na. 153. Quid oput est Occidentali superciliolex SaÌ„cto Basil. c. Bilius observes and upon very warrantable testimonies For all this the Bishop of Rome continued in good Obedience to the Emperor enduring his Censures and Iudgements And being chosen by the Clergy and People of Rome he accepted from the Emperor the Ratification of that choise Insomuch that about the yeare 579. when all Italy was on fire with the Lombards and * Hac una suit causa quare l'elagius injussu Principis Pontisex creatus sit quùm extra obsessam ab hoste vrbeÌ„ mitti quispiaÌ„ non posset c. Postea itaque ad placandum ImperatoreÌ„ Gregorius Diaconus c. Platina in vitâ Pelagii 2. Onuph ibid. Pelagius the second constrained through the necessity of the times contrary to the Example of his Predecessors to entere upon the Popedome without the Emperors leave S. Gregory then a Deacon was shortly after sent on Embassie to excuse it About this time brake out the Ambition of †Onuph In Plat. in viâ—…a Bonif. 3. Iohn Patriarch of Constantinople affecting to be Vniversall Bishop He was countenanced in this by Mauricius the Emperor but sowerly opposed by Pelagius and S. Gregory Insomuch that S. Gregory saies plainly That this Pride of a In hac ejus superbia quid aliud nisi propinqua jam â—…ntichristi esse tempora designatur S. Greg. L. 4. Epist. 78. his shewes that the times of Antichrist were neare So as yet and this was now upon the point of six hundred yeares after Christ there was no Vniversall Bishop No One Monarch over the whole Militant Church But Mauricius being deposed and murthered by Phocas Phocas conferred upon †It may be they will say S. Gregory did not inveigh against the Thing but the Person That John of Constantinople should take that upon him which belonged to the Pope But it is manifest by S. Gregories owne text that he speakes against the Thing it self that neither the Bishop of Rome nor any other ought to take on him that Title Cura totius Ecclesia Principatus S. Petro committitur tamen Vniversalis Apostolus non vocatur S. Greg. L. 4. Epist. 76. Therefore neither is his successor Vniversall Bishop Nunquid ego hac in re propriam causam defendo nunquid specialem injuriam Uindico non magis causam Omnipotentis Dei Vniversalis Ecclesiae where he plainly denyes that he speaks in his owne Cause or in the Cause of his Sea Per Venerandam Chalcedonensem Synodum hoc Nomen RoÌ„ Pontifici oblatum est sed nullus eorum unquam hoc singularitatis Uocabulum assumpsit nec uti consensit
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c S. Auâ—… â—…pist 119 c. 6. S. Augustine tels us That the Militant Church is often in Scripture called the Moone both for the many Changes it hath and for its obscurity in many times of its peregrination And hee tels us too That if we will understand this place of Scripture in a Spirituall Sense a Intelligimus spiritualiter Ecclesiam c. Et hic â—…uis est Sol nisi Sol lustitsâ—… c. S. Aug. in Psal. 103. Our Saviour Christ is the Sun and the Militant Church as being full of changes in her estate the Moone But now it must bee a Triumphant Church here Militant no longer The Pope must be the Sun and the Emperor but the Moone And least Innocents owne power should not be able to make good his Decretall b â—…p â—…op L. dicto E clesiaâ—…us c. 145. Gasper Schioppius doth not onely avow the Allusion or Interpretation but is pleased to expresse many Circumstances in which hee would faine make the world believe the Resemblance holds And lest any man should not know how much the Pope is made greater then the Emperour by this Comparison the c Igitur cùm terra sit septies major Lunâ Sol autem octies major terra restat ergo ut Fontificalis dignitas quadragesies septics sit major Realidignitate Gloss. in Decret praedict Where first the Glosse is out in his Latine Hee might have said Quadragies for Quadragesies is no word next he is out in his Arithmetick For eight times seven makes not forty seven but fifty sixe And then he is much to blame for drawing downe the Pope's power from fifty six to 47. And lastly this Allusion hath no ground of Truth at all For the Emperour being Solo Deo minor Tertul. ad Scap. cannot be a Moone to any other Sun Glosse furnishes us with that too and tels us that by this it appeares that since the Earth is seven times greater then the Moone and the Sun eight times greater then the Earth it must needs follow that the Pope's power is forty seven times greater then the Emperour 's I like him well he will make odds enough But what doth Innocent the third give no Reason of this his Decretall Yes And it is saith he d Sed illa Potestas quae praeest diebus i. e. in spiritualibus major est quae verò Carnaâ—…ibus miâ—…or Inn cent 3. ubi supra because the Sun which rules in the day that is in Spirituall things is greater then the Moone which rules but in the night and in carnall things But is it possible that Innocentius the third being 〈◊〉 wise and so able as e â—…t post ejus mortem nihil eorum quae in hac vita egerit laudaverit aut inprobaverit immâ—…um sit Platina in vita 〈◊〉 that nothing which he did or commended or disproved in all his life should after his death be thought fit to bee changed could thinke that such an Allusion of Spirituall things to the Day which the Sun governes and Worldly Businesse to the Night which the Moone governes should carie waight enough with it to depresse Imperiall power lower then God hath made it Out of doubt he could not For he well knew that Omnis Anima every soule was to be Rom. 13. 1. subject to the Higher Power Rom. 13. And the †Patres veteres praecipâ—… Aug. Epist. 54. Apostolum interpretantur de Potestate seculari tantum loqui quod ipse Textus subindicat c. Salmer on Disput. 4. in Rom. 13. §. Porrò per Potestatem Higher Power there mentioned is the Temporall And the * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Omnibus ista imperantur Sacerdotibus Monachis c. Et postea Etiamsi Apostolus sis fi Evangelista si Propheta sive quisquis tandem fueris S. Chrysost. Hom. 23. in Rom. Sive est Sacerdos sive Antistes c. Theodoret in Rom. 13. Si omnis Anima vestra Quis vos excipit ab Universitate c. Ipsi sunt qui vobis dicere solent servate vestrae Sedis honorem c. Sed Christus aliter Iussâ—… Gâ—…ssit c. S. B. r. Epist. 42. ad Henricum Senonensem Archiepiscopum Et Theophilact in Rom. 13. Where it is very observable that Theophilact lived in the time of Pope Gregory the seventh And S. Bernard after it and yet this Truth obtained then And this was about the yeare 1130. Ancient Fathers come in with a full consent That Omnis Animâ—… every soule comprehends there all without any Exception All Spirituall men even to the Highest Bishop and in spirituall Causes too so the Foundations of Faith and Good Manners bee not shaken And where they are shaken there ought to bee Prayer and Patience there ought not to be Opposition by force Nay hee knew well that a An fortè de Religione fas non est ut dicat Imperator vel quos miserit Imperator cur ergo ad Imperatorem vestri venâ—…re Legati cur enim fecerunt Causae suae Iudicem non secuturi quod ille judicaret c. S. Aug. L. 1. cont Epist. Parmen c. 9. Et quaestio fuit au pertineret ad Imperatorem advâ—… eos aliquid statuere qui prava in Religione sectantur Ibid Nor can this be said to be usurpation in the Emperor Nam S. August alibi sic Ad Imperatoris curâ—…m de quâ rationem Deo redditurus est Res â—…lla maximè pâ—…rtinebat S. Aug. Epist. 162. Epist. 50. Quis mente sobrius Regibus dicat Nolite cuâ—…are in Regno vestro à quo teneatur vet oppugnetur Ecclesia Domini vestri c. Antiqui 〈◊〉 rectè dixit Magistratus est custos legis silicet primae secundae Tabulae quod ad disciplinam attinet Confessio Saxonica §. 23. Gerardus To. 6. Locorum c. 6. § 5. Membro 1. probat ex Deut. 17. 18. Emperors and Kings are Custodes utriusque Tabulae They to whom the custody and preservation of both Tables of the Law for worship to God and duty to man are committed That a Booke of the Law was by Gods owne Command in Moses his time to bee given the King b Deut. 17. 18 Deut. 17. That the Kings under that Law but still according to it did proceed to Necessary Reformations in Church Businesses and therein Commanded the very Priests themselves as appeares in the Acts of * â—…ron 29. 4. Hezechiah and †4. Râ—… 23. 2. Iosiah who yet were never Censured to this day for usurping the High Priests Office Nay hee knew full well That the greatest Emperors for the Churches Honour Theodosius the Elder and Iustinian and Charles the Great and divers other did not only meddle now and then but did inact Lawes to the great Settlement and Increase of Religion in their severall times But then if this could not be the Reason why Innocentius made this strange