Selected quad for the lemma: cause_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	bishop_n	church_n	presbyter_n	1,664	5	10.2707	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A27046	A third defence of the cause of peace proving 1. the need of our concord, 2. the impossibility of it, on the terms of the present impositions against the accusations and storms of, viz., Mr. John Hinckley, a nameless impleader, a nameless reflector, or Speculum, &c., Mr. John Cheny's second accusation, Mr. Roger L'Strange, justice, &c., the Dialogue between the Pope and a fanatic, J. Varney's phanatic Prophesie / by Richard Baxter.	Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.	1681 (1681)	Wing B1419; ESTC R647	161,764	297

you I named And now O the power of Innocency and worth all those for their Gravity Sobriety Learning and Peaceableness you have as much esteem for as I can have And really I hope as bad as they and their adversaries judge each other were they all better acquainted with each other the rest would constrain their afflicters themselves to such a praise and approbation an inconsiderable number only excepted But who else should I name in the County where you live and near you Mr. Joseph Baker Mr. Benjamin Baxster Mr. George Hopkins Mr. Waldern c. are dead Those living are Mr. Ambrose Sparrey your predecessour at Hampton Mr. Andrew Tristram Mr. Kimberley Mr. Osland Mr. Badland of Worcester Mr. Sergeant Dr. Richard Morton Mr. Stephen Baxter Mr. Richard Dowley Mr. Cowper Mr. Paston Mr. Read I cannot remember all Tell me how many and which of those you mean The Elder about you dead were on our side Mr. Arthur Salway Mr. John Hall Mr. Thomas Hall your next Neighbour Mr. Smith at Dudley Mr. Smith at Stoke a younger Man and not far of Mr. Anthony Burgess Mr. Blake c. which of these mean you And what if you can Name one unlearned Man in Forty or Fifty If he be but a meer Nonconformist and not of some such Sect with whom we have not much more affinity than with the Papists who conform not and yet say they are nearer to you than to us I doubt that odd unlearned Man should he but conform would be a great ornament to your present Church But what course can one better take to silence such Calumnies and to convince Posterity of such mens incredibility than to Name the persons round about How many hundred worthy men in London and a few Counties of my acquaintance could I Name you And you say it is a usual Stratagem with us to possess particular persons with an opinion that you detract from them It is bad arguing Syllogizare ex particulari Excellent Logick He that condemneth the Non-conformists and the ejected Ministers as meer illiterate doth not condemn the Individuals though it came in with an How many I never said that you condemn them all but I askt you as you did me How many And is this like syllogizing ex particulari Do you intimate an Accusation against Many of them and when I name almost all of that County neer you will you absolve them all 2. Next you say Those I intended have your suffrage Because I said I had rather have a meer English Divine than an Hebrew or a Syriac Sot It seems you are of another mind A Sot will serve to preach Divinity and seek mens salvation We feel the judgment of more than you and this was enough to set you upon blew Aprons c. How forgot you Tub-Preachers 3. And you would fain steal some honour to your self from the Universities as a Defender of them O happy advantage But who accused them I said I am grown of late years to take it for no very great honour to our young Preachers that they are acquainted with the Universities And you put It is for I take it and so I take it still But late years signifieth not always nor our young Preachers all Preachers Doth he that dishonoureth the University deserve honour for being at the University What young ones you have I know not but our young ones that I speak of do not yet go about to change my mind Do you think all those named though he did not well by the Glocester Cobler Ralph Wallis are an honour to the University or it to them I still take it for no very great honour I said not none for any ignorant idle Lad to have been at the University But sure I obtruded not this judgment on you or any other Yet here is place for Corah's holy Congregation eclipsing the two Luminaries Agamemnon the Sodomites and more such stuff And shall it be the Controversie whether you or I have written more for Learning and Universities and which of us did more to save them from the Anabaptists and other Fanaticks when they were endangered The visible Evidences shall decide the Case You may be more beholden to the Universities than I but I have done more than wish their prosperity as well as you But Quidvis ex quovis is your way There went about Eleven or twelve out of Kederminster Parish and School to the University and Ministry in my time and many since If you please enquire of the difference 3. And when you tell me that I deal no better with the Primitive Fathers I first ask you how could you make shift to be ignorant how ill you use the ancient Presbyters yea and Bishops of the Church your self were they not mostly blew Aprons with you and such as you disdain for want of Hebrew c. Know you not that the Paucity of Learned Presbyters was the true Cause that the few that were such got the place and honour and power of Bishops above the rest And how few Philosophers turned Christians then And how long it was before the Christians had many considerable Schools much less Universities And what men the common Presbyters were yea and the Bishops for the most part Alexandria by Pantaenus Clemens and Origen kept up some competent Learning Basil Nazianzen Nissen Chrysostom were fain to go to such as Libanius and to Athens except those forenamed and Justin Martyr and Tertullian before them and Hierom after how few either Linguists or Philosophers had we And yet do not you account those holy and worthy men blew Aprons such as Ignatius Polycarpus Irenaeus yea and Cyprian almost all the Bishops of Rome Graeg Neocaesar Antonius Ab. Pachomius Macarius yea Epiphanius himself Ephrem Syrus Isidore Pelesiota Ambrose Philastrius Theoph. Alexand Ruffinus Gaudentius Maximus c. Besides Simeon Stillita and all the holy Famous Monks yea Augustinus himself the best rational Divine had little enough of the Tongues Their Writings easily prove all this with the Historical Descriptions of others concerning them I said I think it so short a Work to read the few brief Writers of the three first Centuries as maketh it more a dishonour to be ignorant of them than any great honour to be acquainted with them Instead of this you feign me to say It is no great honour to be acquainted with them But is this true Is a Positive and a Comparative Assertion all one But it seems you are not of my mind But take it for a greater honour for a Minister to know them than a dishonour to be ignorant of them And who vilified them more then you or I If I say that it is a greater dishonour to be ignorant of the Alphabet of the Grammar of the Gospel than honour to be acquainted with them so as to know what is in them and you denied this who vilified them most Have you no greater matters than these to exercise your censorious faculty on You know

Colledge though in the great remote end they both agree But you fly to that poor shift of bidding me take heed of absurd and ridiculous Suppositions not argumentative c. As if you had shewed any absurdity in these Suppositions Or as if plain undeniable Instances had no place in Arguments or Answers but were ridiculous Suppositions and he that would say that a Kingdom is greater than a Family and the King than a Master or Major used a ridiculous Supposition Just thus the poor Nonconformists are perswaded by your Pithonalogy to subscribe swear c. But I seem you say to assert this my self by saying there is a small difference between Bishop Usher's Model and the present Answ It 's tedious disputing with one that must have still another Writing to help him to understand that which he will first confute yea and seemeth not willing to understand It is a fallacy A dicte secundum quid ad dictum simpliciter I only askt you What Farthing doth it take from their Estates What Title from their Honour Power Negative voice even their Lordships and Parliament places But is this the Question We then laboured to satisfie the unsatisfied Ministers that not only Bishop Usher's Reduction but even the King's Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs had changed the very species of Prelacy without any of those Abatements If you would know it is by one word Consent restoring the inferiour Pastors and Churches though not to their Integrals yet to their Essentials And we were so inclinable to Conformity that on that supposition we had Conformed had but that Declaration stood though some of the Sects are of another mind whom you Arguments would confirm For we judge that a Bishop of one only Church consisting of five hundred or a thousand Chappels or Congregations that are strictly no Churches as having no Bishops doth specifically differ from a Bishop of a thousand Churches which have every one their proper Bishop and so he is truly an Archbishop or General Bishop But I am not to trouble you with this And now how impertinent was it to bid me Rub up my Philosophy about Maximum quod sic minimum quod non Know you not that the common use of those Writers are to intimate the same thing that I am saying against you That there is a subjective maximum minimum which only are capable of the relative form But I am next turned to Vossius de invoc sanct of which he hath there disputed and one Histor Thes and I am not told which of them but the words are in the first Thes 49. to prove that the Saint in Heaven and those on Earth make one Society Quare cum nihil obstat quo minus unius civitatis cives dicamur nec causae quicquam erit quo minus aeque civilis honos dicatur qui civibus coelestibus exhibetur quam qui civibus terrenis Nam grad● quidem honores isti differunt sed uterque tamen est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And was it possible that you should think that this made for you Because the world or Universe of Rationals are one Body or Society and so civil honour is the same thing as such in genere to them in Heaven as to them on Earth doth it follow that in this universal Society there are no Kingdoms Cities or Families specifically different Nor no different species of the civil honour what not to Kings Parents Masters What a thing is factions Interest Vossius only proveth Generical Identity of civil honour and the specifical difference of it from the honour of Religious Adoration The Church universal is one and the love and honour which we owe to the Saints in Heaven and Earth is Generically of the same kind But do you believe therefore that there are no subordinate Species of Churches and Honour on Earth What not the Honour due to the King the Bishop the Chancellor the Parish Curates the Deacons and the Beggars Yet all this with you are Premises sufficient to conclude And then it may be you may give leave to Magis minus non variant speciem to be a Maxim still See what Evidence it is that must perswade us to Nonconformity Are they not worthy to be silenced and branded as you have done that can resist such Light But you come to the quick and say Is there no Communion but personal Answ Yes else they could not be two ends to make two Societies You add Many of the Kings Subjects never saw his face yet they have many Hands and Eyes in respect of their subordinate Officers so have Diocesans in their Curates Answ Very true And that proveth that a Kingdom is one Society and a whole Diocess also one Ignoras Elenchum But doth that prove that there are no subordinate Societies in these Which though subordinate in point of Power yet specifically differ Is there no such thing as Personal Communion in presence because there is such a thing as distant Communion of another sort For all that your terms of Hands and Eyes would hide it I scarce think you are ignorant that under the King there are Heads as well as Hands and Eyes Heads of Families Schools Colledges Universities Corporations Cities who are constitutive parts of real Societies which are not of the same species with a Kingdom though in it And if Archbishops be of God's appointment so it should be with Archbishops and Bishops and every Church should have a Bishop But if you will not have it so but we must only have a Bishop and Curates and a Diocesan Church and Chappels you betray our Cause to the Brownists who easily prove No Bishop or Pastor no Church in sensu politico And so when you have granted them that we have no true Parish Churches there are few of them whose Wit is so weak as not to disprove the pretended right of such Diocesan Churches as consist of the Carkasses of many hundred mortified Parish Churches § 50. My Answer I must not repeat take it how you will you here come to the very Controversie I will not begin it with you because I cannot prosecute it I have so much to say on it as at these rates may engage you and me in dispute for many years if we lived so long which I find no reason allowing me to undertake Get me leave to Write and Publish it and I will write you a just Volume of it since it is published till then I again tell you I have said enough though too negligently in my Dispute of Church Government though one hath nibled at the Forms of some Arguments in it If you would have more answer Gers Bucer Parker and Ames's fresh Suit to name no other § 50. I shewed the invalidity 1. Of your Licitis honestis 2. And of former Obedience sub poena anathematis as nothing to our case in hand and do you deny what I said and disprove it 2. I tell you that so far as Bishops or