Selected quad for the lemma: cause_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	bishop_n	church_n	presbyter_n	1,664	5	10.2707	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A07038	Oh read ouer D. Iohn Bridges, for it is worthy worke: or an epitome of the fyrste booke, of that right worshipfull volume, written against the puritanes, in the defence of the noble cleargie, by as worshipfull a prieste, Iohn Bridges, presbyter, priest or elder, doctor of Diuillitie, and Deane of Sarum Wherein the arguments of the puritans are wisely prevented, that when they come to answere M. Doctor, they must needes say some thing that hath bene spoken. Compiled for the behoofe and overthrow of the vnpreaching parsons, fyckers, and currats, that haue lernt their catechismes, and are past grace: by the reverend and worthie Martin Marprelat gentleman, and dedicated by a second epistle to the terrible priests. In this epitome, the foresaide fickers, [et]c. are very insufficiently furnished, with notable inabilitie of most vincible reasons, to answere the cauill of the puritanes. ...; Oh read over D. John Bridges. Epitome	Marprelate, Martin, pseud.; Throckmorton, Job, 1545-1601, attributed name.; Penry, John, 1559-1593, attributed name.	1588 (1588)	STC 17454; ESTC S112311	32,960	52

the ouerthrow by disputation or els I see that Martin hath vndone you Be packing bishops and keepe in the P●●rcivants or if you will needs send them abroad to molest good men then pay them thei● wages and let them not pull it out of poore mens throates like greedie doggs as they do You striue in vaine you are layd open alreadie Fryar● and Monkes were not so bad● they liued in the darke you shut your eyes lest you should see the light Archbishop Titus and Timothie will neuer maintaine your popishe callings I haue pulled off your vizards looke to your selues for my sonnes will not see their father thus persecuted at your hands I will worke your woe and ouerthrow I hope And you are alreadie cleane spoyled vnlesse you will grant the puritans a free disputation and leaue your persecuting Eyther from countrie or Court M. Martin Marprelate will do you hurt Rime doggrell Is good inough for bishops I can tell And I doe much maruell If I haue not giuen them such a spell As answere it how they cannot tell Doctor Bridges vp and downe Writeth after this fashowne The Epitome of the first booke of this worthye volume written by my brother Sarum Deane Iohn Sic foeliciter incipit THe whole volume of M. Deanes containeth in it 16 bookes besides a large preface and an Epistle to the Reader The Epistle the preface are not aboue 8. sheets of paper and very little vnder 7. You may see when men haue a gift in writing howe easie it is for them to daube paper The compleat worke very briefely comprehended in a portable booke if your horse be not too weake of an hundred threescore and twelue sheets of good Demie paper is a confutation of The learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernement This learned discourse is a booke allowed by all the Puritane preachers in the lande who would haue all the remnants and reliques of Antichriste dauntehed out of the Church and not so much as a Lorde B. no not his grace himselfe dumbe minister no not dumbe Iohn of London his selfe nonresident archdeacon abbie lubder or anye such loyterer tollerated in our ministerie Insomuch as if this strong holde of theirs be ouerthrowne hoe then all the fat is run to the fire with the puritanes And therefore hath not the learned prudent M. Deane delt very valiantly how wisely let Iohn Cant. cast his cardes and consider in assaulting this fort of our precise brethren which he hath so shakē with good vincible reasons very notably out of reason that it hath not one steane in the foundation meare then it had Trust me truely he hath giuen the cause sicken a wipe in his bricke and so lamb skinned the fame that the cause will be the warmer a good while for it The reasons that moued him to take this paines was that at the first comming out of the Learned Discourse the D. in a Sermon of his at Paules crosse did not onely confute a great part of this booke but by his said learned sermon made many of the puritans relent and distrust their owne cause what cannot a smooth tongue and a schollerlike wit bring to passe Some other of the puritans in deede being more vntoward to learne then the rest stood stiffe in their former opinions concerning the gouernment of bishopps notwithstanding this sermon of M. doctors challenged him for his sermon offered him y e disputation yea the non plus too or els I am deceiued here M. dean promised them a large confutation of the Learned discourse which in this ●ooke he hath now performed wherein he hath behaued himselfe verye scholerlike His stile is as smooth as a crabtree cudgell The lieader cannot chuse but haue as great delight therein as a Iacke an Apes hath in a whip he hath so thumped the cause with crosse blowes that the puritans are like to haue a good and a sound cause of it as long as they liue In this one thing I dare preferre him before any that euer wrote to wit that there be not 3. whole periods for euery page in the book that is not graced with a verie faire and visible solacism O most excellent and surpassing eloquence He speaketh euery thing so fitly to the purpose that he neuer toucheth the matter in question A rare gift in a learned writer He hath vsed such varietie of lerning that very often he hath translated out of one mans writing 6. or 7. pages together note here a newe founde manner of bookemaking And which is more strange he bringeth those testimonies for his purpose whose very words translated set down by him are as flat against the purpose whereto he bringeth them as fire in quallity is contrary to water Had not he a right vse of his wits think you while they were thus bestowed Not to stand long in this place of those quallities in him whereof before I haue made some mention to his praise in the former Epistle Whatsoeuer might be for the ornament and furthering of an honest cause he hath in this booke so defied them all that elsewhere you are to seeke for them for here they are not to be found Wherin he hath very wisely and prudeutly obserued the decorum of the cause in hand Like lips like Lettice as it is in the prouerbe The goodnes honestie of the matter he handled required such good honest proffs as he brought Let those that handle honest and godly causes labor to bring good prooffs and a cleare stile Presbyter Iohn defended our Church gouernement which is full of corruptions therefore the stile and the prooffs must be of the same nature that the cause is The priest leaues not so much as the title of the Discourse vnexamined The title forsooth is A learned discourse c. A sawcie title but what sayth the lerned Bridges vnto it O you know he is good at a stale iest euer since he plaide my Lord of Winchesters foole in his sermon at Sir Maries Church in Cambridg therfore he iesteth at the title I vs the puritans haue nothing to doe with that sermon why should they hit their brother in the teeth therewith he hath made their betters to laugh at him for his Sermon since that time And whye should he not for his grace will allow him because he is content that bishops should be Lords he hath subscribed weareth a corner cap and a tippet woulde gladly come to the honor to weare that which might make him a lord spirituall and if it were a shauen crowne or a coxcombe which his grace his articles would enioyn him to weare what hurt could that do vnto him Now I wonder what our brethren will say to this that their booke is scoffed at at the first dashe I am sure their noses can abide no iest What say they man do you make anye question of that I warraunt you they will affirme that the author of the Learned Discourse and

assumption must haue bene eyther affirmatiue or negatiue Now if he had assumed affirmatiuely he had ouerthrowne himselfe If negatiuely then you brethren would haue denied the assumption which M. Deane woulde neuer haue bene able to prooue So a man might put himselfe to a pecke of troubles in deede And this is a point for your learning closely to passe by that wherewith a man shall haue no honestie to deale Thirdly you may grant the proposition to be verie true to what end then did Sarum bring it in because Geneva and other the Heluetian Churches haue this gouerment and you labor for it Seelie fellowes can you saye no more then vppon them againe M. deane with your second reason thus concluded page 55. with 4. good substantiall tearmes No gouerment is an vniforme prescript that cannot be altered but that which God in his worde prescribeth to be such But the Lorde hath not prescribed the Church gouernment to be such as all things appertaining thereunto is an vniforme prescript that cannot bee altered Therefore the Church gouernment is not an vniforme prescript which cannot be altered Thou knowest not how I loue thee for thy wit learning sake brother Iohn as for thy godlines I might cary it in mine eye and see neuer a whit the worse notwithstanding me thinkes your syllogisme should haue foure tearmes 1 The Church gouernement 2 All thinges belonging to Church gouernment 3 An vniforme prescript c. 4 A gouernement prescribed in the word And ten to one brother you neuer drempt to haue me● with your brother Martin when you wrot this volume Well seeing we are now c●me together let me about this point of Church gouerment father mis●erly spur a question vnto you Tell me then bethout dissimblation what the bishops and you meane when the question is concerning Church gouernment to run by and by into the controuersie of things appertaining to Church gouerment which for the most part are indifferent and not set down in the worde but left to the discretion of the Church As though there were no difference between the questions By what and how many offices and officers the Church is to be gouerned In what causes it is lawful for church gouernours to imploy themselues whether it be lawful for one of them to meddle with the office of another Or for one to do that action wherin the whol Church should be an agent Whether they may be magistrates church gouernours both at one time As though I saye there were no difference betweene these questions which are grounded vppon the certaine prescript rule of the worde that cannot be chaunged and other questions which although they belong to the seruice of God and the outward gouernment of the Church yet depend not vppon any thing prescribed and exactly set downe in the worde but vpon the grounds● of what in regard of the changeable circumstances of time and place may be most comely most decent most orderly and best belonging to edification Of this latter sort are these points whether it be most conuenient that prayer should beginne at 8. or 9. of the clock whether the sermon should continue an houre or an houre and an halfe whether the pulpit should be of woode or of stone c. Concerning which the worde hath expresly set downe nothing but commanded that al of them shoulde bee squared according vnto the rule let all things be done honestly by order and to edification Now reason with one of our corrupt bishopps or any other that defende their corruptions and saye that our Church gouernement is wicked and vnlawfull because it is not expressely set downe in the word They will by by demand whether any thing belonging to the seruice of God be lawfull but that wherof there is expresse mētion made in the worde And whether any thing belonging to Churche causes be changeable As whether it may be lawfull for the minister to preach in his gowne whereas there is no expresse mention that our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles did so Or whether it may not be lawful for the Church of Geneua to begin his sermon at 8. of the clock whereas it may be the Church of Hel●etia beginneth at 9. or at 10. So the worshipfull Deane of Lincolne sometimes vnlearned Iohn Whitgift not being able to denie but that the ministers ought to be chosen by ●ayes demandeth whether women forsooth were not to haue a voyce in their election or no And thus all the packe of them run from the matter in controuersie vnto the question of things indifferent By this means thinking they may bleare the eyes of men if they cann bring any cauill though neuer so impertinent to y e matter As who say all men were so ignorant vnlearned blinded with the worlde as nonresidentes and 〈◊〉 are Ile besire them to leaue this order or els they are like to heare of it And ile besire you pres ryter Bridges not to bring foure tearmes in your syllogisme again for an you doe it shall cost me the setting on● My brethren the puritans in this place it may be wold grant your syllogism to haue but 3. tearmes in it and so would saye that the words all things in the assumption may be 〈◊〉 ambiguous for if therby your worship mean all things appertayning to the circumstances of the outward seruice of God as the houres of prayers the nomber of communicantes in one congregation c. as you set downe your meaning to be page 56. sect 3. Then they say your assumption is nothing to the matter in question The question my masters why what a question is that Did not I warne you aforehand that M. deane had made a vow not to meddle with the question But if say they● you meane the Churche officers and their subiects concerning which the controuersie is instituted then we denie the assumption And I warrant you brethren he proueth the assumption by 2. reasons page 55. First Christ is the owner and gouernour of his house which is the Churche concerning the inward and spirituall gouernment of the heart Therefore he hath not prescribed the outwarde gouernement thereof Surely brother Iohn I marueile vpon what topike place this reason is grounded for scripture is not the foundation you know of the established gouernmēt you defend As though will M. Bridges saye you are ignorant brother Martin whence I drew this argumēt You would make the worlde beleeue that you know not that I resoned as my brother London did in his H●●●orough of faythfull subiects I tell you I drew mine argument from that place whence he drewe his which you shall finde set down page 42. of his booke for I am sure M. Marprelat your booke hath the pages set downe in it although the printed booke hath them not O I remember well in deed brother Sarum y e place you mean and I remember that Iohn Elmars reason is very like yours For sayth Elmar The

and trouble verie few vnles it be for fear that if they should tollerate to much they should haue a checke of their worshipfull Paltripolitan But you three like furious senceles brute beasts dread no perill looke no farther then your feete spare none but with tooth and naile cry out downe with that side that fauoreth the gospel so Fetch them vp with purciuants to the Gatehouse to the Fleet to the Marshalsey to the Clinck to Newgate to the Counter with thē It makes no matter with you I folow your own words brother London so you may shew your selues in shewe though not in trueth obedient subiects to the Queene disobedient traytors to God and the realme Thus farre I haue followed your words howbeit I thinke you are not well pleased w t me because yo● meane not to stand to any thing you haue written Nay you holde it vnlawfull now for a preacher as far as the two tables of the lawe do reache to speake against bishops much lesse any vngodly statute And yet you say page 49. line 7. That prechers must not be afraid to rebuke the proudest yea kings and Queenes so far forth as the two tables of the law doe reache As we see in Samuell Nathan Elias Iohn Baptist many other They may not stoope to euery mans becke studie to please man more then God Thus far are your wordes and they are as farr from your practize as you are from the imitation of these godly examples whiche you haue brought I see a bishoppricke hath cooled your courage for in those dayes that you wrote this book you woulde haue our parliament to ouer rule her maiestie not to yeelde an inche vnto her of their prileadges Your words I will set downe In like manner say you page 53. if the parliament vse their priuiledges the king can ordaine nothing without them if he doe it is his falt in vsurping it and their folly in permitting it wherfore in my iudgement those that in king Henrie the 8. daies would not graunt him that his proclamations shoulde haue the force of a statute weare good fathers of their countrie worthie of commendation in defending there libertie c I assure you brother Iohn you haue spoken many thinges worthie the noting and I would our parliament men woulde marke this action done in King Henry the 8. dayes and follow it in bringinge in reformation and putting downe lord Bishops with al other points of superstition they may in your iudgment not only doe any thing against their Kings or Queenes minde that is behoofull to the honor of god and the good of the common welth but euen withstand the procedings of their soueraigne But me thinks you haue a palpable error in the 48.49 50. page of your booke which is that women are vncapable of the ministerie not in regard of their sexe but of certaine wants and imperfections in their sex vz. their want of learning and corage so that if a woman should be brought vp in learning and trained in disputations were not milder in nature then men of al which wants in women you speake page 48 but knewe their quarter stroke which knowledg you require in the minister page 49 then by your reason they might prech in your di●ces whosoeuer wil read your 50. and 51. pages shal find this to be your iudgment Besides al this the reader shall find such earthly carnal stuff in al these pages that you must needs giue this iudgment of the whole book surely fleshe euen a lump of meere fleshe writ it For there you shall see the Englishe man prefered before other people only because he feedeth vpon and hath in his possession plentie of sheepe Oxen kie calues I keepe Iohn Elmars words Con●es fish and where as other nations feed vpon rootes rawe hearbes oyle grapes c. In the last place against the French King he raileth and outrageth in this wife That Turkish valesius that French tyraunt Is he a king or a diuell a christian or a Lucifer that by his cursed confederacie with the turke Page 113. line 4. O wicked ca●tife fyrebrand of hell And line 8. O foolish Germanes which conspire not together with the rest of christian princes to pull out such a traytour to God and his kingdome by the eares out of France hang him against the Sun a drying The discreet reader of that whiche hath bene spoken may apparantly see the vndiscreete briutishnes that was in you euen then when you were best worthy to be accounted off And thereby may gather what you are now when you haue bidden farewell not onely vnto the synceritie of religion whiche then you seemed to imbrace but euen vnto all humanitie and ciuill behauiour And yet you doe not thus leaue the Frenche king but in this page 113. line 13. You say that the diuel hath none of his side now but him to maintaine both the spirituall the temporall Antichrist in the same page Wherefore seeing he hath forsaken God like an Apostata and solde himselfe to the diuell c. And line 27.28 Proud Holophernes Oh blessed is that man that looseth his life against such a Termagaunt Againe page 114. line 2. but this Iulia the Apostata is named a diuels name Christianissimus Line 3. And like a trayterous Sarazen is Christes enemie● Here he leaueth the French king and here I leaue his booke Nowe I entreat the reader to consider these thinges that I haue set downe out of his booke and iudge whether such things as he wrote coulde proceed from a religious heart and whether the booke be not an offspring proceeding from a lumpe of earthly flesh This booke is almost all the tokens of Christianitie that euer he shewed Since the time he became bishop he hath bene a continuall oppressor of the Churche of God His practises against God and his saintes was the onely cause whie I haue taken this paines with his booke and he shall bee more beholding vnto me vnlesse he leaue his tyrannie But now alas alas brother Bridges I had forgotten you all this while my brother London and I were so busie that wee scarce thought of you Why coulde not you put me in minde that you staid al the whyle But it is no matter we will make the quicker dispatche of our busines You shall see I will bee the more fauorable to you And let me see howe roundly you ouerturne these puritans for you are now to ouerthrow the seuerall partes of their discipline Our brethren say that our Sauior Christ ordayned an holy ministery● of men for the buylding of his Church and prooue the saying by the place of Paule Ephe. 4.11.12 Your mastership 3. maner of wayes shew the place they alleage to make nothing for their purpose First say you Paule speaketh of diuers functions therefore nothing of Ecclesiasticall gouernment This reason brethren is a very sound one if you should denie

it then in deede I must thinke you not to be altogether so leaddenheaded as your brother Bridges For do you thinke that a man entreating of the Maior of London the two Shiriffs and their offices speaketh by by of some part of the order gouerment of the citie of London or of som of the gouernours of the citie As though my L. Maior the two Shiriffes were now become to be any of the gouernours of the citie of London or their offices any part of that gouernment Who seeth not by this example the folly of our precise brethrens reason euidently declared The Apostle say they speketh of Apostles prophets Euangelists pastors doctors and their functions for this M.D. confesseth therfore he speaketh of some ecclesiasticall gouernours and of some part of ecclesiasticall gouernement Apostles prophets pastors and doctors are church gouernours with them and their office a part of ecclesiasticall gouerment Let them learne let them learn simple siginnes as they are that the Apostle speaketh in this place of ecclesiasticall functions and not of any part of ecclesiasticall gouerment For so M.D. in this 61. pag compare line 17. with line 22. teacheth vs to speake English making an ecclesiasticall function to be a thing altogether differing in nature from euery part of ecclesiasticall gouernment A very proper and pleasant distinction In the second place this testimonie brought in by our brethren is prooued to make nothing to their purpose by two reasons And what bommination vmbertie of reasons here be to perceede foorth one head and yet euerye one fause as it is true that my good brother Ouerton the B. of Liechfield and Couentree sould his Chauncellorship at one time vnto two se●erall men to wit to D. Beacon and the good Chauncellor M. Zacharie Babington Well parson Bridges his 1. reason is after this sort That place which sheweth gifts and functions to be ordayned in the Church to the buylding vp of the bodie of Christe in the vnitie of the fayth and knowledge maketh nothing to prooue that there is an ecclesiasticall gouerment prescribed in the worde Thou sayst euen true parson Iohn For what hath the functions of pastors doctors Apostles c. to doe with Church gouernement A prettie matter euery beggerly Apostle pastor doctor or Euangelist y t cannot spende no I am sure no● 40. marks yearely by all the spirituall liuing he hath in his hande must nowe be a Church gouernour with our brethren their offices be a part of Church gouernment Why brethren what meane you by this place you haue brought O● you thinke that the Apostle by those functions and those persons spoken of Ephes. 4.12 meaneth that any of them functions shoulde be a Lordlike functiou or any of the persons Lord. You saye he doth not No doth not Then out of your owne grant he speaketh nothing of ecclesiasticall gouernment and gouernors Because euerie ecclesiasticall gouernour must needs be a Lord and so ecclesiasticall gouernment a lordly gouernement If this be not true aske my brother Bridges For should God ordaine great men and great Lords to be rulers in common wealths ouer whome hee hath not so great care as he hath for his Church and ordayne none but beggerly fellowes not able to spend 200. markes by the yeare nay nor 20. neither to beare rule in his Church I grant in deed that you brethren puritans saye the trueth as it ought to be that bishops or ministers ought not to be Lords in any wise eyther as ministers or as ciuill magistrates Thus in deed it ought to be I and my brethren the Bb. do grant vnto you And you knowe we would it were so But you know also that our laws will haue Church gouernours to be Lords and what should our Bishops good noble men refuse that which the law would haue them to take Get you the law to be against their lordly callings and see whether they will not giue ouer their Lord bishopdomes whensoeuer lawe compelleth them And whensoeuer they giue ouer they shall haue no cause to thanke suche enuious brethren as you are Howsoeuer it be you see the Apostle speaking of all sorts of ministers by your owne confession speaketh nothing of any Lord or Lordly gouerment among them all and therefore speaketh nothing of Church gouernment Againe all those functions whereof the Apostle maketh any mention as my brother Bridges hath well noted are ordayned to the buylding of the bodie of Christe in the vnitie of fayth and knowledge Nowe I would anye puritan of you all durst say that our Church gouernors that is our venerable and worshipfull Lord bishops are ordained of God for the building of his bodie which I know you will say to be done by preaching As though ● bishops being ciuill gouernours should preach Were it meete I pray you to see Steuen Gardiner being thē of the priuie Counsell in the pulpit Counsellors nowe must haue ●omething to doe with pulpit matters muste they I pray you Will you allow that ciuill gouernours should be ordinarie preachers in your new platforme of a reformed Church I know you will not And what reason is it then that you should require Bb. to be ordinary preachers seeing euery bishop is a ciuil gouernour I tel you true I am so far from thinking that bishops ought to be ordinarie preachers seeing they are ciuill gouernours that I hold it a sin for them to preache ordinarily And brethren you doe not well therefore in vrging ciuil gouernours to preach especially seing you your selues in your platformes are against this point And because it shall be seene that I deale vprightly betweene you and the P.P. prelates I will set downe my reason answer it when you can it shall be concluded I warrant you in moode and figure But in deed I haue inuented a newe moode of mine owne for I haue bin a great schooleman in my daies which containeth in it a great misterie The misterie I will expound it may be in a book for the purpose In the meane time if you resort to my sonne Martin senyor that worthy wight he it may be shalbe able to vnfolde the secresie thereof This is the syllogisme the moode answereth vnto Celarent elder daughter to Barbara and I will haue it called Perncanterburikenolde Perne No ciuill magistrate can be an ordinarye preacher without sinne Ce la rent Canterburie Euerie Lorde Bishoppe is a ciuill magistrate Therefore Ce la rent Kenolde No Lord Bishop can be an ordinarie preacher without sinne Ce la rent What say you now brethren would you haue ciuill gouernors such as our Bishops are to preach I hope not For although I cannot deny but som of our bishops are very great breakepulpits and haue as marueilous rawe gifts in preaching as any that euer came to Pauls wharff yet surely I cānot see what warrant you haue to vrge ciuil officers to preach Wherefore also you doe not well in crying out against ciuil gouernors because

they preach not as though their function were an ecclesiastical function or as though you would haue any to preach who had not an ecclesiastical function If you demaund then whether bishops be Ecclesiasticall or ciuil gouernours They themselues say beath and ai say brethren that for the stopping of your meathes and other causes I wad counsell thē if they wad be ruled bai me to be nether nother Now if yaw demaund againe whether Bishops sin in being ministers seing they are ciuil officers or in bearing ciuil offices seeing they are ministers I haue already shewed that ciuil officers must be no ministers And my brother London hath long since affirmed it to be dangerous for the common wealth that ministers should be ciuil gouernors and therfore brethren to answer this question of yours you are to know that I am fully of your brother Londons mind who saith page 24. line 19. of his Harborough These 2. offices I mean the ecclesiasticall ciuil be so iumbled together as it may be lawful for both parties to medle in both functions there can be no quiet nor any well ordered common wealth Nowe brethren you must not think the worse of this lerned mans iudgment because he is a Bishop him selfe For euen since he hath ioyned these 2. offices together he hath proued his owne saying to be true for his part in that his whole endeuor hath bene euer since he was Bishop that we should haue no quiet nor any wel ordered church or common wealth I hope by this time you see it plaine that Bishops sinne both because they are ciuill gouernours and being ciuill gouernours because they are bishops Your 2. reason is page .61 line 39. Paule speaketh of these gifts and of this building and of the orders and ends thereof therefore he speaketh nothing of ecclesiasticall gouernment This is put home I trow and ouerthroweth the puritans out of all cesse It is altogether as good a reason as an olde man yeelded sometimes to sir Thomas More concerning the cause of Goodwine sandes the stopping of Sandwich hauen which was y ● Tentertons steeple was the cause of Goodwine sandes M.D. 2. reason to shew that the place of Paul maketh nothing for ecclesiastical gouernment is after this sort Paul in rekoning vp these gifts referreth all to the vnitie in doctrine of fayth and to the holy conuersation of life Ergo he maketh no mention of Ecclesiasticall order of gouernment That were a pitifull hearing in deed sir that the Apostle should speake of ecclesiastical gouernment and speak not a word of any lordlike gouernment that the Apostle should make any mention of ecclesiasticall gouernours not name a Lord among them all Fie fie this were too bad and my Lord of Canterbury would neuer abide such scripture But in good sadnes saith the puritans presbyter Iohn Bridges will this place of Paule prooue no part of this gouernment which you oppugne will it not prooue that God hath ordayned pastors and doctors to continue in his Church vnto the worlds end No forsooth will it not quoth the Deane And I am so farre from thinking that God hath ordained your preaching pastors and doctors to continue alwayes in his Church that I haue made a praier pag 655. line 28. of my book as my brother Martin you know hath noted already that we might neuer see that day in England wherein preaching might be had in all places His grace of Canterburie I tell you hath condemned the preaching of the word as being the onely ordinarie meanes to saluation to be an heresie This scripture of Paule that God hath appointed preaching pastors to continue in his Church vnto the worlds ende is a chiefe ground of the former heresie I will allow of no such scripture I trow as may impech the opinion which my ● of Canterb. conceiued of the preaching of the word You see therefore my friendes that M. Deane in this point will haue nothing to do with you or Paules testimonie And you are not ignorant I am sure howe soone all lordes would be out of the ministerie if we had none in England but the pastors spoken of by Paule therefore M. doctor hath prayed against this order Yea and he hath brought such a reson against this your platform of gouernment as is iust Secundum vsum Sarum For in deed it is popish and therefore you might smell it a farre off If the Lorde sayth he page 62. had thought this gouernement needful for his Churche then he woulde not haue suffered his Churche to bee without the same But he suffered his Churche of a long time to be without this gouernment Ergo he thought it not needfull Ah craft craft craft and subtiltie that can in iest deceiue his brethren with a popishe reason in this sort But my masters you must not thinke that our brother Sarum bringeth this in good earnest but onely to trie whether you be so simple as you cannot know a popish reason when you see it And to this purpose I thinke that both his worship Iohn Whitgifts grace haue broght in their writings many things that are palpable popish that they might trie whether of knowledge or of peeuish and chollericke rashnes you speake against their gouerment Nowe if so be that you could not discerne their popish reasons whereof in deed you shall finde great store euery third reason I warraunt you in all their bookes then they woulde haue this aduantage against you that you were not able to knowe trueth from poperie For might they say we brought in papish resons of purpose but si●lie fellows thei● skill is so smal in all kinde of learning that they cannot know a popishe reason especially if we can face it out with a bragg that we haue olde and new writers of our side Now brethren you must not thē mislike your brother Bridges purpose in bringing in this popishe syllogisme This I speake to the ende you should not crie out as some of you haue done that our bishops haue no better warraunt for themselues then the pope hath for their gouernement I grant in deede that if you should take M. deane at the worst you might saye that he might herein reason as well for the Masse as he doth for the established gournement As for example hee might thus argue If the Lord had thought the Masse to haue bene a false worship of him then he would not haue suffered it so long to haue continued where anye weake one should be endangered of being enforced to be present thereat But he suffered it to continue a long time c. Therefore he thought it not to be a false worship I say you must not mistake M. doctor in this sort but knowe that he delt after the manner of the schooles wherein it is lawfull as Thomas Cartwright who hath bene professour of diuinitie both in Cambridge and in Gene●a knoweth well inough for men to argue pró and contrá as well with as