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cause_n	bishop_n	church_n	power_n	2,820	5	5.0653	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A15978	[A notable discourse, plainelye and truely discussing, who are the right ministers of the Catholike Church written against Calvin and his disciples, ... with an offer made by a Catholike to be a learned Protestant ... .]; Marques de la vraye église catholique. English	Albin de Valsergues, Jean d', d. 1566.; Rishton, Edward, 1550-1586, attributed name. aut; Allen, William, 1532-1594.	1575 (1575)	STC 274; ESTC S112318	85,201	271

their time He saith likewise vnto the Traditions which are of the Apostles and that by succession of pastors haue bene vsed in the Churche we do persuade prouoke those that speake against Traditions He writes as much more in the thirde Chapter of the saide booke Forasmuch sayth he as it were to tedious to set forth in one booke the Successours of all the Churches and to tell them one by one we doo ouerthrowe those that for vayne glorie doo seeke to gather disciples together teaching them contrary to that that doth apperteyn vnto the Traditions of the Apostles the which we doo shewe to them by the saide Traditions and by the faith that hath bene taught and is come to vs by succession of the Bishops of the great and auncient Church of Rome the which was founded by the two glorious Martyrs and Apostles S. Peter and S. Paule These are his wordes in his thirde booke aduersus haereses the fyfth Chapter And at the beginning of the saide Chapter he saith thus All those that will vnderstand the truth may presently regard the traditions of the Apostles which are manifest throughout the world and we cannot coumpt the number of those that haue bene instituted and ordeyned Bishops in the Churche their Successoures till our dayes which haue neither knowen nor taughte anye thing like vnto the fables and tales that these doo preache vnto vs c. Not without cause wee may nowe a dayes say the like of the Lutherans Caluinistes other sectes of our time After this he doeth set forth all the Popes of Rome from S. Peter vnto Eleutherius which was Pope in his time And he did affirme that that number did suffise to proue that the doctrine of Marcian and Valentinian was false and very hurtfull because that it was vnknowen or at the least not receaued or approued by the Churche being vnder the gouernaunce of any of those Popes Then with greater reason ought prescriptiō to take place against a new doctrine which hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeres or at the least if any bodie sought to publishe it he was condemned as a false pernitious heretike ¶ The .6 Chapter S. Augustine in his Epistle 365. about the like matter doeth set forth all the Popes by order which haue bene from S. Peters time vntil Anastasius which was pope in his time and by his continuall succession he doeth proue that the doctrine of the Donatists is heretical because that none of those popes which he did recite nor no part of the Churche did receaue it I pray you maye not we saye the like by the Caluinistes and other heretikes The saide S. Augustine in the Epistle that he doth call Epistola fundamenti Cap. 4. doeth write the reasons that did keepe him vnder the obedience of the Catholike Romane Church And amonge other he doeth alleage the common consent of all nations and the continuall succession of Bishops And in his booke which he made against the aduersarie of the olde and newe lawe he doeth name the succession of the bishops as most certain to answer to that that we sayd before of S. Paul I mean that he would not haue vs to be wauering doubtfull in our doctrin but that we should be firm stable the which stablenes is obteined by the knowledge and intelligence of the Scriptures according to the traditions of the Churche and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops The Churche saieth S. Augustine frō the Apostles time hath continued through the certaine succession of the Bishops vntill our dayes ¶ The .7 Chapter YOu doo studie as muche as you canne to reiect our succession and not without cause knowing that this onely doeth suffise to ouerthrowe all the heresies of those new reformed Gospellers Caluin as the moste apparant doth seeke to proue that our reason is of no force because that the Greekes haue had euer succession of Pastours and yet we doo not holde them as Catholikes But if the Reader doo well note that that we haue alreadie sayde he shall finde the aunswere vnto this obiection I meane because that the Greekes haue not had succession and continuaunce of doctrine called vnitie of fayth by the Apostles the which ought euer to be ioyned to the continuaunce of the Pastors to shew the true recognisaunce of the Catholike religion There is none that doo study reade of those matters but that doo know the vnconstant faith of the Greekes as touching the proceeding of the holye ghoste the which errour they had abiured at the last Councell of Florence and yet notwithstanding they did turne to it againe besides diuers other light thinges to speake moderatelye which are not approued by their auncient fathers S. Iohn Chrisostome S. Cirill S. Basil and Athanasius nor yet by our aduersaries at this present time The which errours I haue no neede to set foorth in this booke for my intent is but to speake of that that prickes vs at hande because of ill neighborhood Some doo alleage vnto vs the negligence of our pastors and their ill liues for the which cause they say that the mētioned succession cannot take place But this argument is of no force For althogh that the carelesse liues of some Bisshops and ecclesiasticall persons haue bene so great and so hurtfull vnto the blud of our Sauior Christ I mean to the soules bought with it yet notwithstanding that the Churche hath not lost the succession continuaunce of one doctrine as touching the administration of the Sacramentes by those that were deputed by the Bisshops If one should see a Prelate doing nothing and his lieftenant doing all which of those two woulde you take to be Bishop they haue both deuided their charges the one receueth the profite the other takes all the payne If they be both content what losse doo you feele he that hath anye interest let him valewe the damage And although that the negligence of the Bishop be not excusable before God with the diligence of the deputie nor his conscience cleere yet this ought to suffise that though his faultes be through negligence or through euil liuing yet that ought not to perturbe the assurance of our doctrin the which wee haue taught vs by the word of God interpreted by the true doctours that haue bene before vs agreing in vnitie of faith as I haue alredie said For neither the naughtines of Achas Num. 1. nor of Ioram nor of diuers other great sinners which are inrolled in the booke of the generation of Iesus Christe were not able to withstande the fulfilling of the promise of God made to Abraham that is to sai that he would be borne of this line Euen so the ill liues and conuersatiō of diuers wicked Popes that haue folowed after Saint Peter haue neuer beene able to moue Christe to breake his promise that is to saye that the fayth of his Churche shoulde neuer fayle Math. 16. and that the gates of hell that is to saye of

them Let the learned protestant bring foorth and shewe suche a Communion booke or anye leafe lyne or worde of any suche doctrine or any churche or congregation that euer had any authenticall seruice or ministration of the Sacraments other then that which is yet daylye openly practised in the cōmon knowen catholike churche of Christe And I shall then recant and not before Twelfth I demaunde of the learned protestant to knowe cause reason why their congregations do admit and receaue all Bishops priests deacons and other officers spirituall ordered by our catholike Churche as men lawfull and sufficient to preache the worde of God to minister the sacramentes and to exercise al spiritual Iurisdiction in no lesse wise but rather more then if they had bene ordered in their owne priuate congregations whereas the catholike churche of Christ doth not acknowledge any man of their ordering calling to be any whit the more fit for any spirituall function in Christ his church then other cōmon lay men When therfore the learned Protestant shal be able to shewe good cause and reason whye our Catholike Churche hauing by their owne consent and approuing lawfull priestes Bishops and spiritual ministers not to be also the lawful true and catholike churche of Christe I will then recant and not before Thirtene I require of the learned protestant to expresse what furniture furtherance or commoditie to the honor and seruice of God did christianitie or any part of Christendome receaue by his Churche or congregations what temple or churche did you build at any time for your assemblies and seruice of god what Bishopriks for the better gouernment of the church did you founde or procure what vniuersities schooles or colleges did you at any time erect for the maintenaunce of christian doctrine fayth and religion When the learned Protestant shal be able to proue by ecclesiasticall histories and olde auncient writers these thinges to be the monumentes of their conuenticles and priuate congregations of their fayth and religion and not of the common knowen fayth religion and catholike Churche of Christe Then I shal in like maner yeelde and recant and not before Fourthtene Let the learned Protestant name anye one felowship or companye of beleeuers in the whole christian worlde that in all Articles of faith and religion be in one vnitie in one meaning and beliefe and contented also to captiue submit their seuerall meaninges to the iudgementes of their prelates and spirituall gouernours and of one chiefe head and pastor among them in all ecclesiasticall thinges and causes Let I saye the learned protestant name any one company thus agreing among them selues and thus humblye affected in Christian fayth and religion sauing onely the holye and blessed felowship of the common knowen catholike churche of Christe And I will then recant and not before Fyftene Againe I doo demaunde of the learned protestant whether the Lutherans Zuinglians Illirians Caluinists Confessionists Swenkfeldians Anabaptists and suche like be al of one church and congregation or no And if he be able to proue these sectes being of such diuersitie in fayth and religion to make one church and that euery one of them may geue saluation to their felowes being so disagreable one with another in high misteryes and poyntes of fayth and religion or that I ought to beleeue all those rather then the one true catholike churche of Christe or yet anye of these more one then another all of them making such a bolde chalenge of the truth of Gods worde and Gospell When the learned protestant shall be able by good reason or drifte of argument to satisfye these my requestes Then I shall yeelde and recant and not before Sixtene when the protestant shall be able to proue that those persons which in their departure made from the catholike churche of Christe haue more desyre to beare the name of Sectaryes as of Lutherans Suinglians Illyrians Caluinists Swenkfeldians and Anabaptistes then the name of Christians or Catholikes are the true members of Christe his Churche and not heretikes and schismatikes nor yet folowers therein of their forefathers the Arrians whiche toke their names of Arrius the Maniches of Manes the Nestorians of Nestorius the Nouatians the Vigilians the Iouinians Pelagians Eutichians and others Then I shall yeeld recant and not before Seuenthtene I demaunde of the learned protestant whether if the whole space of that thousand yeres of blindnes wherein their Churche laye hid and vnknowen suppressed by papistrie superstition and Idolatrye as they terme it whether they whiche were then baptized and openly professed Christ wer saued or not If the Protestant doo aunswere yea consequently it foloweth that they were saued without the Church of Christe liuing in all ignorance superstition Idolatry as they say If he aunswer no and that there was no saluation out of their hid vnknowen Church then all men of all degrees yong and olde for the whole space of the foresayde thousand yeeres by the Protestants iudgement perished without all hope of Gods mercye and were damned When therefore the learned Protestant shall be able to proue by good reason and argument eyther that ther is a way to saluation without the Churche of Christe or that all people professing Christe perished for so many hundreth yeeres together Then I will recant and not before Eightene Let the learned Protestant make prouf vnto me how their hid vnknowen and secrete churche not hauing in it the doctrine of Christ his Gospell openlye taught no ministration of Sacramentes no spirite of prophecying no discipline of rod or correction no ordering of Bisshops priestes and ecclesiasticall ministers nor yet anye other spirituall function executed in the same for the space of one thousand yeres together Let him proue their hid vnknowen Churche with the lacke of all these thinges to be the true spouse and Catholike church of Christe And I will recant and not before Ninthtene Againe on the other side let the learned protestant proue that it is not the true Churche of Christe that hath in the face of the world for the space of fiftene hundred yeres past exercised preaching the cōuersion of nations to the obedience of the Gospell that hath alwayes had the administration of Sacraments the hearing of matters in controuersie the orderlye succession of Bishops the vniformitie of solemne Ceremonies and the vnitie of fayth that hath in her selfe all holye functions of the spirite as working of miracles remission of synnes the true sense and interpretation of Gods word that is beautifyed with diuersitie of states commended by Christe as with martyrs with confessors holye virgins such other Let the protestant proue vnto me that this is not the true churche and that we are not bound to obey beleue this church none other in all controuersies doubtes vprising eyther by the difficultie of scripture or by vain contention pride of heretikes and I wil yeld recant not before Twentie Moreouer let the

passe drye foote ouer the redde Sea Whye did ye not require at his hande that it mighte please him to authorize his worde preached by youre ministers with Signes miracles and tokens as he did when he sente youre felowes the Apostles seeinge that you are Prophetes howe commeth it to passe that you haue not foreseene that we would not beleue you for who is he although he were a deuil that could not say as muche But we haue one disauowe which God hath geuen to manye which doo report that they doo come from him whiche doth greatly ouerthrowe the authoritie of your commission He doth say in the .14 of Hieremie The Prophets preache falsely in my name I haue not sent them I haue not commaunded them nor I haue not spoken vnto thē but they prophecie vnto you false visions and naughtie diuinations to deceaue your heartes And likewise in the .27 Chapiter I haue not sent them saith the Lord God and they prophecie in my name falselye to thintent I should forsake you and that aswell you as your prophetes should perishe Item in the .29 Let not your Prophetes seduce you that are amongest you nor your Southsayers and doo not marke the dreames that ye dreame for they doo prophecie falselye vnto you in my name seing that I haue not sent them saith the Lorde etc. So that although it wer true that God hath sent you as it is false we might with a iust cause pretend an excuse of ignorance and to saye with great assuraunce that that Abymilech sayde vnto God where he threatned that he woulde kill him because he kepte Abrahams wife O Lorde God sayde he would you kill a poore simple nation Shall it be sayde that we beleue all those that fayne to come in youre name haue not you commaunded vs by the Apostle That we shoulde not beleue euery spirite and that the Angel of darknes doth transfourme himselfe into an Angell of light Haue not you commaunded to be written that we should beware which way we take that suche a waye doth seeme good the whiche notwithstanding doeth leade vnto damnation and perdition If any saying that he is our princes seruant should come to demaunde a summe of mony in his masters name and that he had neither his hand nor his seale to warrant his demaunde would not we sende him awaye like a false merchant fering that he wold deceaue vs then with greater reason ought we to feare the committing of our faith and the hope of our saluation into their hands whom we know not nor that cannot shewe any miracles to confirme their preaching as the Apostles did Qui confirmabant sermonem sequentibus signis That is which did confyrme their preaching with Signes or miracles folowing why do not they sai as he said whose successors they professe to be the signs of my commission Apostleship haue bene accomplished among you with signes and miracles 2. Cor. 12. ¶ The .18 Chapter YOu do aunswere vs as that Iewes were answered by Christe when they did demaund him to shew some Miracles The generation adulterous and peruerse doeth demaunde signes but no signe shal be geuen them etc. But this comparison can not be applyed vnto vs for we are not so hard of beliefe as the Iewes nor you such faithful messengers of God as Christ was of whom the Iewes did demaunde some signes of obstinate hatred after thei had sene so many lame healed so many blinde receiue their sight so many deafe heare so many dispossest that had spirites but as for you we haue sene your cōmission not to haue extended so far as to restore a flie to life againe or to heale a lame goose although that greater matters are required to confirme so straunge and so new a reformed Gospel These wordes doo make you mad crying out and preching in euery place that your Churche ought not to be called newe but rather that it is olde and Apostolicall and that your doctrine is the verye same that S. Peter and S. Paule did preache And to drawe the simple people to beleue that that you saye you doo declare your faith saying that you doo beleue doo preach that there is one God in Trinitie of persons and the second which is our Sauiour became manne from the wombe of the virgin and that he suffered and did rise againe and to be briefe you shewe that you haue profited in your religion for you haue bene but fortie yeeres which is the time since it began in learning the great Creede the Pater noster the whiche you coulde not learne in a thousande and fyue hundred of ours But in all this you say nothing to the purpose for we doo not demaunde of you whether you can well your Cathechisme the which you hauing learned of vs you teache to others And as Sampson saide Iud. 15. If you had not labored with my Cowe ye would neuer haue hit my Riddle That is to sai That if that our Churche had not nursed or taught you which are her rebellious children you woulde haue knowen nothing for it is of our Churche that you haue learned the principles of your faith She is the Cowe that hath nourished Caluin in a Chanonrie of Noyon Theodore de Bexa in the Priorie of Louinnam harde by Paris and consequentlye all the other ministers which haue learned all that they knowe at the Conuent of S. Fraunces S. Dominick S. Augustine and of S. Bennet where ye were nourished spirituallye as touching your doctrine and temporally as touching the mainteyning of your studie at the charge of that Church against the which ye doo nowe so striue as the Camels whiche sometime rewarde their masters for their good keeping with yerking biting so that coulor it howe you list ye cannot denye but that ye set forth newe deuises For althogh it is so that your heresyes which to please the eares of the vnlearned ye call the refourmed Gospel and pure worde of God haue bene in times past yet they were buried in the very depth of hell and you haue raised them againe cloked with newe coulors But although it were so that your doctrine were not new but very olde yet ought not you to be more priuiledged thē Moyses and the Prophetes whose simple and playne wordes the world would not beleue although they preached no new doctrine no more then you say that you doo Moyses did shewe manye miracles in Egipt and why was the principall cause to deliuer the children of Israell out of the captiuitie of Pharao No surelye for to what purpose I pray you shuld God shewe such great power and might against a simple worme of earth Is it like to be true that he shoulde moue the whole heauens with suche great darkenes to send so many notable plages to bring him to yeld which had confessed his wickednes for the torment that he suffered with the flyes the frogges Grashoppers Surely no he himselfe doth