Selected quad for the lemma: cause_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	bishop_n	church_n	people_n	1,422	5	4.6721	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A93883	An Ansvver to a libell intituled, A coole conference betweene the cleered Reformation and the apologeticall narration; brought together by a wel-willer to both; wherein are cleerely refuted what ever he bringeth against the Reformation cleared, most humbly submitted to the judgement of the honourable Houses of Parliament, the most learned and reverend divines of the assembly, and all the reformed churches. By Adam Steuart.	Steuart, Adam.	1644 (1644)	Wing S5489; Thomason E43_4; ESTC R11438	39,008	70

them in the Lord but not to rule ever themselves and others Answ 1. What is Well-willer understandeth by Congregations whether Ministers alone of Ruling Elders alone or both together or men or all men women and children and in a word all the members of the Church I know not Neither doth hee expresse his minde upon this point Only I must say that being once in company with some of their Preachers I heard some women maintaine stoutly in presence of the Minister without any contradiction made by him that women also had power in Ecclefiasticall Assemblies to judge of Controversies of Religion and in matter of all Ecclesiasticall Censures 2. I answer it is one thing 1. to call a Church Officer to his charge or to give him his vocation or calling 2. another to send him into the charge or to give him his mission 3. another to admit him into the charge and to elect him or choose him The first is an act of the Church officers who examine his life and Doctrine and afterwards give him his Ordination in the name of the whole Ministry The second is an act of those who send him and sometimes is done by the Ministers in a Colloque or a Synod which give him his Ordination as when hee is sent to feed a particular flocke sometimes by a particular Church as in some particular Commission to a Classe or Synod but in the name of the universall visible Church as yee see in the Assembly at Antiochia in sending some Ministers to the Assembly at Hierusalem The third is an act sometimes of particular Churches as in the admission and election of their owne Ministers Sometimes of a Colloque and Synod as in the admission of the Members therof as in that Synod at Hierusalem And here to avoid all Sophistications of our Adversaries note that I speak here only of the visible Church according to its visible forme and consequently of the visible and externe Vocation Mission Admission and Election of Ministers so I say every Church chooses i. e. elects its owne Ministers but it calleth them not nor sendeth them It giveth them not their generall Vocation nor Mission into the Ministery but that is an act of the whole Church which in actu signato belongeth to the whole Church but in actu exercito according to the exigence of time and places to particular Ministers not in quality of Ministers of particular Congregations but of greater consociations in a representative body of many particular Churches So a Minister in a Synod hath power of God by the whole visible Church to judge rule and feed many Churches positis ponendio ut poni debent so as nothing thereunto requisite bee wanting but all ordered as it should viz. if it be by consent or election of his particular Church and he bee admitted by the Classe or Synod whereunto he is sent c. as it is ordinarily practised in our Reformed Churches Master Well-willer replyeth againe That Episcopacy is as intrinsecall to particular Churches as the Presbyteric since Bishops are chosen by the people at their instalment where customarily people are allowed to make any just exception Answ I deny the Assumption viz. that it is as intrinsecall and that for the reason brought by the Commissioners As for that which hee bringeth for confirmation thereof viz. because they are chosen by the people I answer 1. It is not enough they have their Election from the people but they must also have their Vocation and Mission from the Church in the name and authority of Christ which they have not according to this Well-willers owne Tenets 2. Because the people can make no Church Officer and principally Ministers since they have not the abilities to judge of their learning and gifts 3. In choosing of an Archbishop it is not morally possible that all the people can elect him and especially when he is a great Archbishop or a Primate over a whole Kingdome for all the people cannot well meet together 4. And howbeit they could meet yet could not their consent and voyces easily be gathered 5. It were a ridiculous thing in choosing of him to seek the consent and voyces of every idle and ignorant fellow yea of women that are of the people 6. Neither is it enough to chose a Bishop to make any just exception for that is not to elect him but to hinder his Election 7. Neither is this ordinarily practised 8. And Master Well-willer to the Bishops here confesseth in the next line that it hath had little successe But Master Well-willer confirmeth it out of that ordinary passage of Hieronymus To avoid Schisme one of the classicall Presbyterie was chosen to be as Chair man Answ 1. Such a Bishop is not an English or Papist Bishop but a Moderator of the action or a Master of the Chaire which will not make up a Bishop in so farre as a Bishop is distinguished from an ordinary Minister for yee your selves pretend to have your Synods which cannot be without some Moderator President or Master of the Chaire and yet ye deny that ye have any Bishops or Episcopall Government 2. Neither are Bishops annually 3. To bee short Master Well-willer bringeth us here no reall but imaginary Bishops in the Kingdome of Utopia viz. that are only Masters of the Chaire annuall c. 4. Item whose Chancellour Archdeacon c. were Parishioners 5. Their Chancellours are not ordinarily Ecclesiasticall but Lay-men as ye call them who neverthelesse judge of all Ecclesiasticall Causes which ye ordinarily blame 6. Neither have they Vocation from God as yee confesse Neither are they chosen by all the Churches that they rule and feed if any food they give and feed not themselves with the fat of the people You are also too bold Master Well-willer to say that the people formerly have beene as willing they should reigne as ever any people were in your Kingdome to have the Presbytery ever them Answ We can shew you hundreds yea thousands who have cutled their Government both in England and in Ireland and what hath been the good will of the Scots towards them they can best tell themselves as having felt it these foure or five yeares last past But as for the Presbyterian Government ye have never heard the People murmure much lesse rise up against it 2. But if it be so that ye have found them so sweet what needed ye run away and desert the Church here They did compell Ministers and Churchwardens to doe many things against their conscience and in case of refufall did ordinarily undoe them as we can produce many examples both in England and Ireland yea of the Independenters themselves before that they spake this way in despite of the Reformed Churches The like of this cannot without singular impudence be said to have been any where practised by any Scots Presbyterie We grant you that it is not the peoples consent only but if according to the Word that makes a Government lawfull But wherefore may not a Congregationall representative Church as well choose men for Classicall Assemblies as for Synods What pattern have you for the one rather then for the other To all this according to your usuall custom ye say much but prove litle or nothing of what is in dispute betwixt us many books ye make but little to the purpose And now when ye can doe no better ye can your selves most desperately on the Bishops side to maintain their cause when ye are yet too weake to maintaine your own This Well-willer in the end of his Booke wishes that the Commissioners golden speech be written upon all their actions viz. That those that are most averse to Presbyterie if they allow no matertall difference in Doctrine Worship or Practice might enjoy their peace and all comforts of their Ministery and Profession under it without controllment of that Authoritative power which they so much apprehend And thereunto replieth We have saith he been of late made to feare the contrary by the reports of some not of the meanest ranke rf your own Nation Answ No godly man that knoweth what is Presbyterian Government can doubt of it for according to the rules thereof 1. no man is compelled to be Actor in any thing against his own conscience 2. If you will be under it and allow no materiall difference c. without doubt the Synod and all Orthodox Churches will cherish you and assure you of it But if ye wil ever live in Panick feares and be so witty as evermore to find out new matter of jealousies to vex your own soules and make you to live in such a perpetuall diffidence all the forces of the King and his three Kingdomes is not able to hinder it ye must trust in God and admit of such securitie from your Brethren as morally ye can have If this doe not the businesse we know not what to advise you As for that Anonymous Country-man of ours who he can be and if any such be and whether his discourse with you could give you matter of just feare we know not and therefore forbeare to answer Only I wish seriously on your behalfe ye would doe nothing against the glory of your God the weale of your Country or to the breach of charity with your Brethren who so much desire to live in peace with you all The peace of God be with you all Amen FINIS