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cause_n	bishop_n	church_n	part_n	1,403	5	4.4637	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A19220	The Catholike moderator: or A moderate examination of the doctrine of the Protestants Prouing against the too rigid Catholikes of these times, and against the arguments especially, of that booke called, The answer to the Catholike apologie, that we, who are members of the Catholike, apostolike, & Roman Church, ought not to condeme the Protestants for heretikes, vntill further proofe be made. First written in French by a Catholike gentleman, and now faithfully translated. See the occasion of the name of Huguenots, after the translaters epistle.; Examen pacifique de la doctrine des Huguenots. English	Constable, Henry, 1562-1613.; W. W., fl. 1623.	1623 (1623)	STC 5636.2; ESTC S109401	62,312	88

King the Bishops the Clergie and likewise of all the people of France Admit it were so yet for all this does it not follow that it is receiued in France vnlesse hee can shew withall that all the Estates doe receiue it that is The Church the Nobility and the People But hee makes no mention of the Nobility but onely of the Church and the third Estate so that at the most it is receiued but of two of the three Estates which may be the cause that our Aduersary to keep vp the number diuides the Church into two parts viz. Bishops and Clergie The Councell saith hee is receiued of the Bishops the Clergie and likewise of all the people of France Which is a new diuision of the Estates neuer as I perswade my selfe heard of before Iudge then what iust occasion the Nobilitie of France now haue to reiect this Councell when as those who would haue the Councell receiued doe reiect the Nobility CAP. 6. That the Huguenots may very rightly bee accounted members of the Catholike Apostolike and Romane Church THis Chapter at the first blush seemes to treat of the same Argument that the first does for hauing there proued it That the Huguenots are of the same religion with vs Catholikes it may follow also that they bee of the same Church too And yet to my thinking these two Chapters may very well bee parted not so much in regard of the difference of the nature of the subiect as of the humours of the persons For commonly when a Huguenot would draw a Catholike to his opinion he begins euermore with the particular Controuersies and so vpon the purity of his doctrine hee inferres the verity of his Church A Catholike on the other side when hee would winne a Huguenot beginnes still with the Church and so by the verity of the Church concludes the purity of his doctrine and commonly when either of them gets the other out of this tracke they are to seeke which is one of the reasons that they cannot satisfie the aduerse partie For he that would perswade another must not begin with that principle which to him seemes best though indeed it be so but with that which seemes best in his opinion whom hee desires to perswade otherwise hee shall but lose his labour For when a Huguenot shall haue vrged a thousand passages of holy Scripture to proue the truth of his owne particular assertion hee shall not bee a whit the nearer and why For that a Catholike will say instantly with himselfe What though I cannot answer him yet another may and if I am to beleeue nothing which I am not able to maintaine by disputation then should I not beleeue the proceeding of the holy Ghost the vnion of both Natures in Iesus Christ the mysteries of the holy Trinity all which I haue beleeued without being able to maintain them or so much as vnderstand them And euen so the authority of the same Church which makes mee beleeue these mysteries without being able to maintaine them makes me also to beleeue the holy sacrament of the Altar Purgatory c. without being able to maintaine them So that if a Hugu proceeds no further does not shew a reason how a man may be assured of these mysteries without the Churches authority or else which I hold more reasonable why wee ought wholly to relye vpon the authority of the Church in one point and not in another hee shall neuer say ought to the purpose Nor can the Catholikes haue any happier success in their perswasiues for when they talke to the Huguenots of the Church how the Church saies this and the Church saies that and the Church cannot erre They who are not brought vp to such kinde of phrases and who found their faith vpon this perswasion That the Scripture is cleere on their sides What care wee will they say what the Church saith so long as wee agree in opinion with the word of God So that a Catholike shall neuer bee able to perswade them to any thing if hee beginnes not at their foundation and proue that the Scripture makes not so clearely for them as they imagine it does and then when they once perceiue that they cannot confute the Catholikes by Scripture they will bee compelld to confesse That a man can haue no assurance of his faith without submitting his own iudgment to the iudgment of the Church which as wee say according to Christs owne promise is infallibly accompanied with the holy Spirit For mine own part although it bee not my intention to entice any man either to one Religion or the other but to qualifie onely the passions of men yet for feare that I should commit the same errour in this Treatise of Pacification which they often doe in the course of their perswasiues I thoght good to subioine this Chapter also to the end that my reasons might be drawne from the principles of both Religions And thus hauing proued in the first Chapter by examination of the particular questions according to the Huguenots method That they be no Heretikes I was also desirous to adde this Chapter that according to the Catholikes manner of proceeding that is as much to say as according to the Nature of the Church I might also proue them the Huguenots to be no Heretikes For it were but labour lost to tell many of our Catholikes that the Huguenots hold many of the fundamentall points of faith as well as we seeing they take not the skantling of an heretike by his opinions but only by this marke That he is out of the Church vnderstanding thereby no other Church then that which we call Catholike Apostolike and Romane excluding all those out of the Church to whom these three titles may not be giuen what opinion soeuer they be of For which reason I resolued to proue that these three titles doe belong vnto the Huguenots And first touching the title of Catholike the Church is called Catholike in three respects First in regard of it selfe 2. In regard of the Iewes 3. In regard of Heretikes Now the Church is called Catholike in regard of it selfe because in the vniuersalitie thereof it comprehends all times and all places viz the whole number of the Elect as well those who haue beene since the beginning of the world and are now departed and triumphant in heauen enioying euerlasting blisse as those that are ordained to the like blessednesse whether now aliue or to be borne hereafter Which definition is founded vpon the Scriptures for S. Pauls words are The Church of the first-borne which are written in Heauen and who are written in heauen but the Elect from whom the reprobates are in this specialty distinguished That their names are not written in the Booke of the Lambe The Church then consists of the Elect who are not restrained to any place or time For Iesus Christ hath redeemed with his bloud saith Saint Iohn Out of euery kinred and tongue and people

to those Catholikes that are desirous of the quiet of the Church and State THERE are now thirty yeeres and more at seuerall times since we haue had perpetuall warres with the Huguenots as with Rebels and Heretikes though we haue perceiued of late that our former opinion was wrongfully conceiued against them and we may be also mistaken in the latter and that time which hath made it appeare that they are not Rebels may discouer likewise vnto vs that they are not Heretikes But howsoeuer it were much to be wished in the meane time that we would entertaine a charitable conceit of them till there be more euidence giuen in against them The bitter dissention in Religion hath beene the spring-head of all our miseries That was it which brought them forth at first and which yet nurseth them whence it is now come to passe that those men who are at this present disturbers of the State haue at the very selfe-same time begun to raise tumults in the Realme and to reviue and exasperate the differences which we haue in Religion In such fashion as that the practises of the principall Leaguers and the turbulent Sermons of diuers Preachers for I blame not all haue beene as it were Hippocrates twins who went alwaies together laught alwaies together and it may chance that these also may weepe together and we haue seene the experience of it that the tongues of the one haue done more mischiefe than the swords of the other See the cause then why in the beginning of these late troubles the Catholike Apologie hath laboured to qualifie this heat and to confute the slanders giuen out against the Reformed Religion and those of it Which Apologie hath beene in part refuted but so coldly that no proofes which the Confuter produceth could make me see any reason why we should so peremptorily condemne the Huguenots for Heretikes although differing from vs about the explication of some points of Religion Vpon which I was induced a yeere since more to answer the Reasons aforesaid But finding the Arguments to be of great weight I iudged it fitter to write a iust Treatise thereof by it selfe than to answer the obiections hudled vp together by another man which hath caused mee also both to suppresse that which I had written already and to defer that which I purposed to write And longer I suppose I had deferred it if these late Tragedies acted in the murthers of our two last Kings had not put me in the conceit of it how that these horrid Acts sprung from the selfe-same fountaine and that only vpon this ground too namely That the Errours of the Huguenots are so exceedingly enormous they found their Maximes by which they perswade themselues That a man may take any course lawfull or vnlawfull to destroy them and their fauourers Another motiue I also had which induced me to proceed in my purpose of writing Which was the consideration of the fortunate proceedings of our late King HENRY whom his enemies made to be called Great all the time that he continued Protestant Then whose troubles we need seeke no further example to shew how God both dislikes mans bloudie courses and disposes also of his owne proceedings his owne way For God neuer produces any extraordinary euent without some extraordinary Designe But how extraordinarily God in the beginning fauoured his Maiestie whiles he continued Protestant none knowes so well as his enemies forasmuch as God made vse of their courses for his aduancement They conceited it that by embroyling France in Ciuill warres to haue ruined him and these warres haue increased his honour and power They impatient of delayes thought presently by vniustifiable practises to haue vrged the late King to haue prosecuted him with more violence than he had done heretofore and these plots of theirs haue been both the causes of the vtter ruine of his enemies and of his reconcilement to the King Briefly his enemies thrust Armes into his hands for their owne destructions and those deuices by which they had thought to haue chased him out of Guyen haue brought him into the heart of France and by the selfe-same meanes whereby they thought to take away his life they haue giuen him the Kingdome May wee imagine that God had no designe in the bringing about of these purposes Or what else may wee gather out of all this but that God is angry when we will not permit him to dispose of his owne Church his owne way but deuise to preuent him by our owne wisdomes For which respect I protest before God that had I beene the sorest enemy that the King had had yet should I thinke that for no other reason God had so many wayes fauoured him than to punish vs who by vniustifiable practises out of an impatient zeale would haue rooted out the Reformed Religion though erroneous Haply then it may fall out that if wee alter our courses God will also change his And as those designes of ours by which we verily thought to haue aduanced our Religion haue hindred it So God also may turne the same meanes which we feared would hinder our Religion to the aduancement of it In the meane time let vs know thus much That God neuer blesses those mens courses which thinke to anticipate him through impatience Let vs then haue patience a while and when wee shall perceiue the times of peace to be fittest for our purposes let vs a Gods name offer the same conditions vnto the Huguenots which they propounded vnto vs before which was to assemble the best learned men in both Religions to discusse friendly the points in controuersie to the end that the quiet of the Common-wealth may goe along with that of the Church which if the Huguenots shall accept of as I make no doubt but they will I perswade my selfe that there may be such a course taken in the Conference that discouery may be made of many things which haue beene concealed hitherto from both of vs. Not that I imagine any noueltie can be found out in Religion God forbid that I should euer thinke so but that the meaner questions in controuersie being reconciled the impertinent ones omitted the greater may be insisted vpon to be cleared by more euident demonstrations Nor can either partie considering the points be already sufficiently discussed imagine that such a conference would be vnprofitable for although there can hardly be found more solid Arguments than those wherewith we haue serued our selues heretofore yet is it one thing to proue and another thing to satisfie now wee must not so much maintaine a side to vanquish as to winne those that are in the wrong And thus much I dare say and I will be able to make good against any contradiction that neither partie haue in any conference as yet taken that course which they ought and might haue followed for the satisfaction of the aduerse partie and the clearing of doubts For mine owne part though I be the meanest of