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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	bishop_n	church_n	minister_n	1,640	5	6.7449	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A91473	Independency accused by nine severall arguments: written by a godly learned minister, to a member of Mr. John Goodwins congregation, and acquitted by severall replyes to the said arguments by a member of the same church. In both which, sweetnesse of spirit, and soundnesse of arguments have been endeavoured. Published according to order.	I. P.	1645 (1645)	Wing P53A; Thomason E296_16; ESTC R200209	27,998	39

Saints together in the spirit of which love I come to your arguments Fourthly That no case is so cleer but some question may be raised about it to which present satisfaction may not be given it is sufficient if the main things things be justified ARGUMENT I. LEt it be granted that the Churches in the Apostles time were Congregationall for all nationall profession in the world was either Jewish or Heathenish yet if they were to be the president of the form of Church-ordering and government for ever under the Gospell how could all the Churches the Apostles had constituted up and down the world yea and all particular Christians be so corrupted as to suffer the government and worship of God to be taken from them so easily as that none that I can heare of are found upon record to have stood up for Christ and the truth but Nationall-Church-government was brought in and we cannot learn that there was any scuffle on contestation against it I do not think there can be named one truth of God that Antichrist or any other Heretique fought against but t is possible with a little search or study to name those pe●sons that disputed or w●it on suffered in the defence of it and stood in the gap to keep out the error only in this all the Christian Churches in the world suffer'd the government of Christ which is so deare to the heart of a Saint to be destroyed and a false Antichristian government and worship to be obtruded on them and all sides are silent in the businesse Where is the Scribe is there no Disputer no Martyr to be found what not one that retained any spark of zeal for Christ that after ages could speak of either o●th approbation or detestation for willingly suffering shame spoyling of goods banishment death rather then Christ should be pull'd down in his worship and a Nationall false Church-government set up in the roome of it I cannot but wonder that all Christian Churches should fall at once into such a dead sleep to suffer the evill One thus to pluck up and thus to plant or else if their eyes were open I cannot but call it the greatest piece of cow ardise that ever the Churches of Christ were guilty of to stand idle speechlesse spectators by where was the valour of their faith Heb. 11.33 34. Or if they did dispute and suffer for it I cannot but think it the greatest unfaithfulnesse and oversight the Churches were ever guilty of not to transmit the story to posterity REPLY FIrst this Argument impleadeth Presbyterie as well as Congregationall government for where read we of sufferers for Presbytery Secondly To come more directly to the point you grant the Churches constituted by the Apostles Congregationall now if wee shew this practice of theirs was intended as a pattern for us and so taken by the most Primitive Churches we hope your demand will be satisfied though wee could not distinctly shew you why none appeared in the defence of it of which anon First God and nature do nothing in vain was the saying of the ancient Naturalists the Spirit of God did so distinctly set down the manner of the constitution of the Jewish Church by Moses that posterity may have a distinct pattern as wel as a rule to walk by the Holy Ghost hath to some purpose surely so punctually noted the manner of gathering and governing the Churches planted by the Apostles and what can this purpose be but our imitation in things lawfull and possible for all in the new as well as in the old Testament are written for our learning and follow me saith the Apostle and that by way of forbearing and negatively as by way of doing and affirmatively that is wee may not do what they did not when they might and the nature of the thing seemed to require it as the subjecting particular Churches to a combination of Elders which should have ordinary authority over the severall Congregations which they might have done as well as to keep up the government in one city which they did and as well as the Church of France at this day though under persecution yet keep their government and when by reason of the paucity of believers and the temptation of persecution they had much need of the help of government and no hinderance why they might not seeing though by reason of persecution they might have been hindered for a time and in some places yet the rule of such a government if it had been the will of God had been usefull and though they had been disturbed in one place yet it would have been exercised in some other this was a sufficient argument for God to use Jer. 7.31 they did which I commanded them not and for the Apostle Heb. 7.14 of which Moses spake nothing Ergo God intended it not And so affirmatively what they did for substance we must Hence Gualter in the end of his Comment on the Acts sayes they are not to be listened unto that tell us the way and practice of the Apostles in constituting Churches is not a pattern for us to follow Secondly The Churches in the first and second hundred yeers after Christ did take the Apostles practice for their pattern and therefore every Church did transact all their ordinary affaires within themselves as admission of members choyce and ordination of officers excommunication of scandalous persons deposition of their officers where just cause was in difficult cases indeed they used the counsell and help of other Churches but as being ingaged thereunto only out of the bond of mutuall love and fellowship not of necessity or subjection and where any Church was more famous for gifts numbers Ministers c. to these they gave the greater respects and did more depend upon their guidance till this voluntary and occasionall office of love became a custome viz. for the lesser and obscurer Churches to do nothing without the greater and for the greater to exercise inspection and some kinde of jurisdiction towards the lesser by way of charge and office till in the third Century it was by the Councel of Nice established by a Canon for a Church-law at which time Antichrist had made much progresse towards his usurpation For proof of all which I shall shew you some of the words of the Centurie Writers touching this Argument and first of the constitution of Churches planted by the Apostles 1. C●nt lib. 2. cap. 7. de gubernatione Ecclestitul de consociatione c. If it be said these consisted of many congregations and so were Presbyteriall I answer it cannot be proved they were so secondly nor disproved that they were one congregation because we reade so often both in Scripturall and Ecclesiasticall story that they had one Eldership not severall over them and that they all met upon one great occasion together as upon the choice or deposition of Ministers excommunication of members c. and if they did meet in severall places yet having one

Pastor the Elders the Deacons and also the people did deliberate and determine of things belonging to the government of the Church 3. The Churches in the third hundred yeer Cen. 3. cap. 7. Tit. de Synodis privatis in principio Now that the jurisdiction of the great Churches over the lesse was established and the authority of metropolitanes determined by the Nicene Councel yet if any businesse happened which could not be perfected without the rest both Ministers people then they came together and dispatched them with common advice without the calling of the Churches of the same Province So Cyprian cited by them Epist l. 3. cap. 10. From the beginning of my being Bishop or Pastor I determined to do nothing without your counsell hee speaks to the Elders and Deacons nor without the consent of the people by my own private opinion In these assemblies in other Churches there were few orders made by the Bishops or Pastors and afterwards approved by the Church unlesse it was in Rome according to the efficacy of the mysterie of Iniquity they are the Authors words some Bishops made decrees as Damasus Galixtus c. By all which it appeares that the Churches most Primitive were ignorant of any necessity or law lying on them to be governed by one Church or more or of associating with any but as they saw cause and by the law of charity neither understood there was any Provinciall much lesse Nationall or universall and ministeriall and governing Church which must by way of authority dispose of all the affaires of the particular Churches Object But they excommunicated in their Assemblies of many Churches Answ 1. So did they in each particular Church as of their own right and consulted not with others unlesse the cause was difficult 2. The excommunication was rather of the opinion by damning and condemning of it then of persons 3. If there were such excommunication of persons yet it was done by the willing consent of the Churches or else for themselves those Churches that met not for others unlesse by consequent that he who is excommunicated out of one Church if it be duly performed is excommunicated out of all ARGUMENT II. WHy hath not the civill Magistrate a power to set up and establish by a law such a worship as an Assembly of godly Divines shal present to them to be according to the Word of God as well as they had a power to pull down false worship Popery Episcopacie Arminianisme and such grosse errors and innovations as had justled out the true servants and service of God and this they did with the approbations and acclamations of all those that professed the power of godlinesse of what Way or Sect soever they were I never heard of any such that accused them for stretching beyond their line therein If the subject matter of Politicall administration be meerly humane matters why did not Congregationall Divines inform them as much but were silent while they had their hands thrust deep into Church-affaires and things spirituall Why did not their jealousie over the Parliament break out when they saw them begin to dash the foot against that stone but gave thanks to God for them their doing but now when they have come to set up and it proves aworship against their judgement and conscience they are reproved and have no power at all in things Ecclesiasticall but every man must enjoy his conscience worship and way If they once had a power to pull down why have they not now power to pull down in the like case with the like proportioned approbation and if in things Ecclesiasticall they have a power to pull down why not to set up too That the civill Magistrate shall have a power in things spirituall and yet no power is a mysterie unto mee REPLY 1. THe government the Magistrate hath pulled down was erected as a Law of the kingdome and by that power was inabled to the persecution of the Saints and disturbance of the State which was the defection of the Magistracie of these times Now when the Magistrates shall not only withdraw their power but also prohibit the further exercise thereof in the persecution of the Saints and disturbance of the State we suppose it is no more then according to their just power and therefore do rejoyce therein 2. The Magistrates just doing any thing according to the joynt consent desire approbation and congratulatory acclamations of all the Saints is no good argument to prove a lawfull power in the Magistrate to do things contrary to the joynt consent desires c. of all the Saints Herod and Pilate Felix and Agrippa had a just power to release Christ and Paul c. but that doth not argue that their power was just in delivering them up unto whipping imprisonment death c. it was indeed potentia but not potestas might but not right and it is the latter I suppose that you mean 3. We did never deny the Magistrate a lawfull power to intermeddle with that kinde of Church-government or doctrine opinion or practice which shall most dangerously intermeddle with the State it self and thereby prove evidently hurtfull and apparently destructive thereunto and so did the government whereof you speak which was the ground of that act of abolishing the same When Congregationall or Presbyteriall government or the professors thereof be found in their principles and generall practices underminers of the peace and welfare of the kingdome raising up wars and trouble to maintain the same it is high time for the Magistrate who is mainly to minde salutem populi to pull them down and no longer to tolerate the same and such is the instance which you speak of 4. Those Christian or unchristian Magistrates may have a lawfull power and authority to destroy Antichrist which may have no lawfull authority to appoint lawes and rules for the government of the Churches of Jesus Christ and to enforce the same contrary to their judgements and consciences Cyrus may have a just warrant from God for the ruining of Babylon but not for the compulsion of Sion to worship God according to his thoughts of the will of God therein all Magistrates may and ought to assist and preserve the Churches of Jesus Christ from those that wonld ruine and destroy them but that any magistrate hath power to compell the Saints of God what to believe in matters of faith and what to practice in matters of immediate worship especially in things that are of an intricate and deep cognizance and controversall among the godly learned which is the main businesse in hand between the Presbyterian and Independent party is beyond any ground that I can yet perceive from the Scriptures but we shall meet with this again in another of your Arguments ARGUM. III. VVHy do not our Congregationall Divines write to the Brethren of New-England and convince them of their errour who give as some say the civill Magistrate a power to question doctrines censure errours