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A30942 The disputation at Winchcomb November 9, 1653 together with the letters and testimonies pertinent thereto : wherein is offered some satisfaction in serveral points of religion. Barksdale, Clement, 1609-1687. 1654 (1654) Wing B794; ESTC R23641 73,761 196

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went into France and being at Geneva he saw the Sabbath much prophaned and the wafer-cake given in the Sacrament instead of bread whereupon he began to think better of the Church of England and returning home he became Pastor of a Church in Northhampton-shire called Achurch The Church of Rome was a true Church the Reformed Churches separated from it becoming a false Church Though Ministers were ordained in the most corrupt estate of the Church of Rome yet if they forsake the corruptions of the Church of Rome they are true Ministers as the Church of Rome it self if it would cast off its Corruptions should be a true Church There is a double Calling necessary to a dispensor of the Mysteries of salvation Inward and Outward The Inward enableth men the Outward authorizeth them to discharge their sacred function Where there are Gifts if God encline the heart of the party to enter into the Ministry there is an inward Calling Yet this alone sufficeth not without an outward Calling either Ordinary or Extraordinary We are not now to expect extraordinary callings since Miracles are ceased The Ordinary calling is by the Imposition of the hands of the Presbytery Jer. 14. 14. 27. 15. Rom. 10. 5. No other Ordination was heard of for fifteen hundred years or at lest approved of Dr. Featly's distinction of Clergy and Laity In the Reformed Churches of France and Geneva the people give no voice in the Election of Ministers but are only permitted if they have any causes of dislike or exception to make them known to the pastors guides of the Church and the power of judging such exceptions resteth wholly in them When one Morelius a phantasticall companion sought to bring the Elections of Bishops and Ministers to be popular and swayed by the most voices of the people he was condemned by all the Synods in France as Beza sheweth Epist 83. In Scripture we find Election and Ordination frequently distinguished not only as distinct acts but oft-times in distinct hands Deut. 1. 13. The people chuse them who shall be Rulers but Moses makes them Rulers Act. 6. 3. The people chuse the Apostles appoint the Deacons The chusing of a person to an office is not the authorizing of the person elected but the designation of the person to be authorized See Mr. Gillesp Miscell e. 4. The Socinians acknowledge it is fit for Order and Decency to retain Ordination in the Church Peradventure many of the Sectaries of this time will hardly acknowledge thus much Some think that the Ceremony of laying on of hands may be omitted sometimes we must be tyed to example in the lest gesture though not prescribed and yet men presume to dispense in a circumstance prescribed Tit. 1. 5. Timothy was ordained by laying on of hands and enjoyned to lay hands on others in their Ordination 1 Tim. 5. 22. Thus were the Deacons ordained Act. 6. 6. and thus were Paul and Barnabas set apart for the execution of their calling Act. 13. 3. Augustin and Chrysostom preached every day in the week and year at least once or twice without fail Ye heard yesterday yee shall hear to morrow is common in their Tractates and Homilies Mr. Bull 's trial of Separat p. 81. The Papists by way of scoff called the Evangelical Ministers praedicantici Wheras Paul judged preaching his chief Office and would not baptize lest it should be an impediment Bellarmine and the Councill of Trent style preaching praecipuum Episcopi officium The Question saith Mr. Mode on Act. 5. 3 4 5. should not be Whether Tithes are due to the Ministers of the Gospel meaning as a duty of the people unto them but rather Whether they be not due to God for so is the style of the Scripture All the Tithes are mine These I give to Levi and not you There are many other uses for the employment of Bona sacra if they be more than is competent for them and theirs That men though gifted without being called to the Ministry and by Ordination set apart for it should take upon them the office or ordinary exercise of preaching seems repugnant to those Scriptures Rom. 10. 15. Heb. 5. 4. 1 Tim. 5. 22. Christ therefore frequently urgeth this That he was sent from his Father Punishments have been inflicted on those that have medled beyond their call as Uzziah Apage vaesanam illam prophetandi libertatem imo licentiam blasphemandi ut liceat maleferiato cuique tyroni prodigiosissima cerebri sui phantasmata in apricum producere populo commendare praelo Concio D Halli ad Syn. nat Dord Such as want Authority from the Church 1. are none of Christs Officers Ephes 4. 11. 2. They are expresly forbidden it Jer. 23. 21. 3. The blessing on the Word is promised only to sent Teachers Rom. 10. 15. Mr. Owen's duty of Pastors and people distinguished p. 46 47. Inprimis displicet mihi illa quam tuentur libertas prophetandi certissima pernicies religionis nisi cert is finibus acriter coerceatur Casaub epist 320. The same Collector pag. 683 684. Obj. WE are commanded not to eat with a Brother if he be so and so Ans It signifieth to have familiar civill society with them in inviting them or feasting them But if one may not have familiar civil conversation with such much less may he eat with them at the Sacrament It follows not for in withdrawing our selves from them we punish them and shew our dislike of them but in withdrawing our selves from the Sacrament because of them we punish our selves Mr. Downame on 1 Cor. 11. 28. saith None ought to refrain coming to the Lords Table because they see scandalous sinners unworthy guests admitted For 1. The Apostle here doth not enjoyn us to examin others but our selves 2. Because the Apostles yea even Christ himself did joyn with those Assemblies in the service of God and particularly in the use of the Sacraments which were full of corruptions both in respect of doctrin and manners viz. This Church of Corinth it self 3. Because one mans sin cannot defile another nor make the seals of the Covenant uneffectuall to him who cometh in faith and repentance and even hateth that sin which he seeth committed especially when he hath no power committed unto him by God and the Church of repelling the wicked from this holy Communion 4. Because the punishment denounced against unworthy Receivers is appropriated to them who thus offend and reacheth not to the innocent because they are in their company Zanchy saith Non aut ob talem abusum Ecolesia de sinit esse Ecclesia Christi aut pii impiorum in sacris Communione possunt contaminari Beza de Presbyt p. 28. Etiamsi suis oculis Minister quenpiam viderit aliquid agentem quod coenae exclusionem mereatur jure tamen nec debeat nec possit nisi vocatum convictum legitimè denique secundum constitutum in Ecclesia ordinem damnatum à mensa Domini cum auctoritate
to hope that by your discretion all may be calmed However being not conscious to my self of any evill Doing either against private or publick persons I do securely wait for the Event I am enemy to no man that 's my Religion They that make it a part of their Religion to persecute Dissenters must take heed lest at their great peril they do good to those they malign for that Good will accrew to those that suffer for the Truth is out of question with Your Servant C. B. Decem. 9. Master Wells IF so high a comparison may be used it may be said of us as it was of two great Romans by the Historian They learned in the same that which in contrary camps they practized You and I were collegues in our Youth and lately had some clashing But Sir I wish you to use no carnal weapons for I am informed there is some intent of force to be offered me Forbear I pray and take off any such prosecution Let us proceed in debate of what is in controversy if you please to proceed without any other arms but such as become Scholars and Divines that is reasons and Arguments You shall find me I assure you on the word of a Christian very willing to yield to any thing I cannot answer Read the enclosed as if you were not a party but a judge and remember the conclusion in Minutius Faelix if you cannot forget you are a party Tu victor mei ego erroris Do not disdain to write your mind to your old acquaintance and Countryman and if you permit Loving friend still Cl. Barksdale Decem. 9. To the Right Worshipful Richard Aylworth Esquire and to the rest of the worthy Justices met at Winchcomb Decem. 17. 1653. Noble Sir TO you I address my self and by you to the rest of the worthy Justices present with you protesting my readiness to wait on you and to be obedient to the present Governours in all lawful things and namely in using or not using the Book of Common Prayer I am ready to use it if it be permitted as I suppose it is by Order of the Council of State November 12. last and I am ready † Never with contempt to lay it aside if they require it to be laid aside For I never thought it the only way of serving God I have done nothing in contempt of any Act or Ordinance of State I have ever Preacht Obedience to Superiours Nor do I desire to live any longer than I may be a profitable Member of this Common-wealth in my little sphear And you will be so tender I hope of the Honour of publick Justice as not to condemn such a man unheard Let not Christian Gentlemen and Englishmen be less equal than Pagan Romans You will in your piety and wisdom I hope give a check to the violence of my Accusers whose Religion is Revenge You will in your Charity and Goodness endeavour so far as lawfully you may the preservation of Gods Servant and your poor Friend Cl. Barksdale Decem. 17. 1653. To Master William Towers Decem. 17. 1653. Dear Sir AS God hath vouchsafed us the honour to appear for some Great Truths in our Religion so it seemeth by the Justices proceeding at Winchcomb we shall have this second honour to suffer for them Te Deum laudamus I have sent them a Letter this morn to put them in mind of the manner of the Romans I hope 't will not seem to them Antichristian not to condemn men unheard I do not find in my self any fear of them Though I cannot say as the good Archbishop Whitgift said He had two things to give him courage against his potent Adversaries Orbitatem Senectutem being in the midst of my Course and being call'd Father by six little motherless children Yet I can say Si Deus nobiscum and take courage enough from the Cause If all the world oppose it Truth is Truth and God is Truth To whose Grace and protection I commend us and all ours Your assured friend and Brother C. B. C. B. to D. W. December 19. 53. SIR It is very true that I told you the first draught of that dispute was the work but of one day while the memory of it was fresh and the carefull observer is no other than the Respondent himself who is not ashamed to own as well the penning as the publishing of it My worthy friend that stood in subsidiis if he hath noted any considerable Defect in it may do well as I requested him to send me his supplement But the setting down an Enthymen for a Syllogism and the omission of little matters on the by I conceive is no very considerable want Indeed there was a passage between him and the opponents concerning the Institution of the Sacrament which because I found not the particulars in my frail memory I mentioned not Now Sir for the proceeding against me at Winchcomb the last week which together with a very frivolous report about the D. of Y. in the inquiry whereof methinks the Religion of an oath was made cheap was the business of the three Justices I must tell you what good people say That the new-saints there discover what they are by their pride and spightfulness That they procured warrant to fetch in some of my neighbours to swear against me for using the Common-Prayer-Book who are not so Book-learned that they can well tell when I use it when not That they some of them gave this false evidence that on the Monday sollowing the Dispute when Mr. Helme would not appear I had drawn to the Church a company you were one of lewd persons That the Justices have not obliged me by any humanity or charity toward me suffering me to be accused by such fellowes in my absence that But no more of this now To conclude this scribble I would have all know that I do forgive my Adversaries whom I have assayed to cool by kind letters and that I do not fear them that I am well affected to all Goverment by which I am protected and that I am so well opinioned of the present Governor that I believe he will at least tolerate that Religion wherein himself as well as we were once baptiz'd C. B. to Mr. G. December 24. 1653. SIR I have seriously considered both what you writ to me and what you said You said Let Ministers preach at home and take heed of Meetings It is good to be wise and wary but to omit the means and opportunity of doing good in our Callings even when there is some shew of perill to our selves I doubt will argue rather a timorous deserting of our Cause than a prudent wariness Ministers must not only labour single and in their own Cures but by a brotherly union and mutual assistance advance the work of their Master and procure the peace of the Church When so many unlearned new Teachers both single and united shew such zeal to make proselytes shall we that
to all that do outwardly submit to the Covenant Sir I will add no more at present these Arguments thus briefly set down you may consider of impartially I have left a margin for your Annotations and desire you to note what you allow and what you dislike and so return my paper that I may endeavour to satisfy you so far as it becomes one that is a friend to you and to the people among whom you are Minister I must not end till I have as I think it my duty admonisht you to review the Meditations you delivered yesterday and in your second thoughts judge whether it he right and charitable to preach 1. That the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church were heretofore imposed as necessary or equall to Gods Law See to the contrary in the preface to the Liturgy of Ceremonies why some are retained 2. That a Church of Saints might fifteen years ago best be gathered out of excommunicate persons 3. That God will add to your separating Church such as shall be saved as if salvation were not to be had elswhere 4. That Liturgy hath done much hurt among the people Remember the fallacy of non causa pro causa 5. That the Ministers that joyn not with you harden people in their sins and favour their wickedness 6. That the Apostle speaking of withdrawing from disorderly walkers forbids to eat the Sacrament with them though they were not excommunicate They might eat familiarly with Infidels not with the brother offending 1 Cor. 5. Herein I cannot subscribe to your doctrin though in any office of love I am your servant Postscript YOU were a little troubled me thought with that Text 1 Cor. 5. concerning not eating with the offending Brother and you held it lawfull to eat familiarly or at the common Table with him but not at the Holy Table Your reason because it was lawfull so to eat with Infidels Sir you are twice mistaken for it was clearly permitted to keep company and eat with Infidels though not with the brother Read the place And the Apostle doth not speak of eating the Sacrament but common bread A Christian must be so far from familiar converse with such a brother that he must not so much as eat with him No not to eat He must avoid his familiar company lest he partake in his sin whom he knows to be covetous a railer a drunkard c. But if they both chance to meet at the Lords Table the offender being not under publick censure of Authority there he may accompany him in that good Action and not be polluted by him for the Action is good and the inward unworthiness is his own guilt and hurts not another The end of this Aversation from the offending brother is for his good for his conversion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 Th. 3. 14. That he may be ashamed The end of my Admonition to you is that you may not be ashamed but in the most hansome way you can amend your error and no longer rail † † Humfryes of Free Admiss p. 78. My Brethren there are some touches of the Law and Superstition on you You know what a sacred thing was made of the Communion-Table when the Rayl was about it Now I pray think how you refine and spiritualize your old superstition by putting a spiritual rail about the Sacrament when you debar poor sinners from coming thither Let us take heed there will be something of the Pharisee in these spiritual-proud hearts of men there will be setting a rayl stil about the Communion-Table about the Holy Table and fright the people from it Mr. Barksdale expected Mr. Helme should now shew himself an example of meekness in accepting brotherly Admonition which he had commended so much in his Sermon but found it otherwise for neither was the paper returned according to his request nor any Answer at all but the letter was shewed to his party and from one of them Mr. Barksdale received this loving Advice following A Letter of Mr. Tr. to Mr. B. Junii 1. 52. GOod Sir The good respect I ever bore to your industry learning peaceableness and integrity makes me having seen a letter of yours savouring of some sharpness to be bold to give you advice worth gold 1. That you would write no more such letters you know not what use may be made of it If you had the letter again I think you would never send it 2. That you will not think your self ingaged in conscience to contend against any particular form or disciplin tolerated by the Magistrate especially seeing I and the rest do by no means judge any man to be scandalous because he is not of our form but desire all brotherly love and fellowship with you and them Good Sir consider of this mine advice and if you cannot take it well yet do not take it ill because t is the advice of your assured loving friend The Answer returned Junii 5. WOrthy Sir Although my Letter written as I conceive on a very just occasion and in a friendly manner to Mr. Helm be not yet vouchsafed any answer yet have I this fruit of it that you upon sight thereof have been pleased thus far to shew your love to the Writer as to give me your Advice Advice led in by so favourable an elogy of your undeserving friend that were the Admonition sharper than any point of my letter yet should I think my self bound to take it well Monere Moneri you know the rest I do not only not take it ill but heartily thank you for it and will obey it preferring your judgment herein before mine own For truly when I consult with my self give me an ingenuous liberty to speak a little boldly with you I can see no cause but I may write more such letters That letter hath two parts one defensive of many Ministers for their life and learning well approved the other admonitory desiring a revisall of some points deliverd by that Preacher my friend In the Defense I have certainly said somewhat that cannot be refuted by silence nor as I think by words And in my Admonition I have touched that which ought to be retracted or at least excused Why am I not answered by letter if I am wrong to be reduced or informed if I am right to be confirmed To give no Answer in such a case I confess I cannot reconcile with the Rules of humanity which I have learned and which I did believe my friend would not transgress The true use of a letter is thereby to understand the writers mind and so to give him answer what other use may be made of it as you say truly I know not but I esteem it not worthy to be seen by Superiours against whose command I am so far from contending that I will not publickly condemn what they publickly commend But to speak to your second it hath been esteemed heretofore very conscientious to contend against some things tolerated by
you All to take notice that our Church is free from that superstition or whatever it be called wherewith the Church of Rome is justly charged The Saints are in our Prayers for imitation not for adoration Our Houses therefore being truly built at first for God's Service and now used by us for the right end the setting apart of such places for divine Worship makes them relatively holy and gives God a peculiar Title to them and he owns them for his My House shall be called a House of prayer W. Your own House may be as well used so and called Gods House and a holy place B. No Though God may be served in every place and I serve him dayly in my own house yet the publick place separated for his service I say becomes his by a peculiar right All the world is his but our Churches are his to a singular and holy purpose by a singular dedication As he hath his Day so also a place for his Worship both Holy Keep ye my Sabbath and reverence my Sanctuary For your satisfaction see Mr. Mede's Divine Treatise upon Hallowed be thy name and his letter to D. Twiss Now let us Hoc agere and come to the business of the day H. To the Question of the day my first Argument is this That it is not lawfull to administer the Sacrament in your Parish-Churches thus I prove If you have not a true calling in your Church of England then it is not lawfull for you to administer the Sacrament in your Parish-Churches But you have not a true Calling in your Church of England Therefore it is not lawfull for you to minister the Sacrament in your Parish-Churches B. I repeat If we have not c. I deny your minor and affirm we have a true calling in our Church of England H. If in your calling by the Bishops you are engaged to superstitious and unlawful practices then your calling in the Church of England is not a true Calling but in your calling by the Bishops you are engaged to superstitious and unlawful practices Therefore your Calling in the Church of England is not a true Calling B. I deny your minor and affirme we are not engaged to any superstitious and unlawfull practices is our Calling by the Bishops H. The keeping of Holy-dayes I do not mean Holy-dayes upon occasion as our Thanksgiving dayes but your set holy-dayes the keeping of your holy-dayes is an unlawfull practice But in your Calling by the Bishops you are ingaged to the keeping of Holy-dayes Therefore in the Calling by the Bishops you are ingaged to unlawfull practices B. I deny your major and affirm that the keeping of our holy-dayes is not an unlawfull practice H. A practice against Gods command is an unlawfull practice But your practice is against Gods command Therfore your practice is an unlawfull practice B. Not against God's command how prove you that H. My text is in 20. Exod. where you shall find it a part of the fourth Commandement Six dayes shalt thou labour and do all that thou hast to do Therefore it is against Gods command to keep any one of the six dayes holy B. I answer two wayes 1. By retortion 2. By interpretation 1. By retortion I say your Argument rebounds upon your self and condemnes your own practice and that Text in your sense that we are commanded to labour six dayes takes away as well occasionall holy-dayes as set and recurrent For our Thanksgiving dayes are not dayes of labour 2. By interpretation the words you urge are not preceptive but permissive God requires one day in seven and allowes us six not denying us the liberty if we be so devout as to consecrate some part of them also to his publick Service The Jewes had among their holy-dayes the feast of Dedication of human Institution which yet we read that Christ himself observed H. Worship not instituted by God is unlawfull Worship But your Holy-dayes are a Worship not instituted by God but by human authority therefore your holy-dayes are unlawfull Worship B. I answer to the minor and say that our holy-dayes are not the Worship it self but a circumstance of the Worship and circumstances of Gods Worship may be ordained lawfully by men H. Well your calling by the Bishops however is not lawfull and thus I prove it If the Scripture allowes of no Diocesan Bishops then your calling by the Bishops is not lawfull But the Scripture allowes of no Diocesan Bishops Therefore c. B. I deny your minor and affirme the Scripture does allow Diocesan Bishops H. There is not so much as the name of a Diocesan Bishop in all the Scripture B. But there is more than the Name there is the Thing there is the Office The word Trinity is not in the Scripture yet we Believe the Trinity H. Where doth the Scripture shew us any such office bring forth your proofe of it B. 'T is my part to answer your proofs Now you put on the Respondent the part of an Opponent Let them that have been bred in the Schools judge whether you do like a fair Disputant H. Our dispute is not an University Dispute but for the clearing of the truth to some Godly People B. Do you think the University Disputations which are the best in the world are not for the clearing of the Truth But what saith Mr. Tr. shall I propose my Argument to prove Diocesan Bishops by the Scripture Tr. You have liberty to propose your Argument and shew in what part of Scripture you can find the Office of any Diocesan Bishop B. I allege principally the Epistles of S. Paul to Timothy and Titus and particularly Tit. 1. 5. For this cause left I thee in Creet that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting and ordaine Elders in every City as I have appointed thee Out of which Text I will prove that Titus was a Bishop and Creet his Diocese and therefore here we have found the Diocesian Bishop But before I proceed let me aske you Gentlemen do you not put me upon this to ensnare me Do you mean no harm to me Tr. No I assure you wherefore in Gods Name speak freely B. I humbly thank you but first let me openly declare before all this Assembly that I have no mind to oppose any act of State nor will I meddle at all with the Lands and Lordships of Bishops only I plead for the Order and Function of Bishops I plead for the primitive Apostolicall Bishop and no other And that this Text is for me thus I prove He that hath a power to ordaine Elders and set things in order in the Church is a Bishop But Titus hath a power to ordaine Elders and to set things in order in a Church Therefore Titus is a Bishop H. But you must prove him to be a Diocesan Bishop B. So I do Creet was his Diocese the whole Iland was committed to his Goverment Diocese my friends is a Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉