well Bishops and Priestes and not these newe Aldermen which albeit they bee mute in pulpits yet are they mouthy inough in Consistories The opinion of Augustine concerning the estate of bishops is sufficiently knowen for hee thrusteth them among heretickes that deny their superioritie In which croude let this Libeller and his fellowe T. C. goe packe out of the Church together with Aerius their ringleader and an olde master of an hospitall and a famous hereticke himselfe was also a bishop and gouerned his clergie and church with as great power as nowe doe our byshops neither doeth he in eyther of the places 2 De opere monach c. 16. de ciuit der lib. 19. c. 19. quoted say any thing against them Hee condemneth not the state of bishops but their worldlinesse and not the dignitie of bishops but such as sought honour and would not endure labour which negligence wee doe not defend in any neither was hee so scrupulous in distinguishing ciuill and ecclesiastiall causes as these seeme to be for in his booke de opere Monachorum alledged by this Petitioner he doth declare that hee dealt himselfe in ciuill causes notwithstanding he was a bishop and that he hoped God woulde reward him for it Neither is there in 3 In Tit. ad Ocean Hieroms whole workes any worde sounding to the disgrace of bishoppes Hierome maketh the termes of Bishops and Priestes common in the Apostles time but that bishops and priestes should nowe be equall in power and dignitie hee neuer concluded nay hee saith that the superioritie of bishops is an Apostolicall 1 Ep. 85. tradition and borrowed of the analogie betwixt the Lawe and the Gospell and confesseth that it began in the Apostles time accordingly hee vseth Damasus Bishop of Rome and all bishops with great respect The authoritie and credite of Ambrose both with the Emperour and people and his iurisdiction in ecclesiasticall causes was farre greater then that which our Bishops haue Is it then thinke you likely that a bishop woulde speake against Bishops nay he is sayde himselfe to haue exercised the Church censures against the Emperour and giueth ordination to Bishops and calleth them the Apostles successors The place of Ambrose commonly alledged 2 Ep. 33. against Bishops ciuill iurisdiction maketh nothing against the state of Bishops for in England no Bishop hath ciuill iurisdiction as hee is a Bishop but as hee hath it by commission which to refuse were not onely a weakening but a deniall of loyaltie neither doth Ambrose forbid any to take ciuill iurisdiction but to followe worldly cares and to giue ouer their ministerie and as diuers of this faction haue done to throwe off the robes of the ministerie and to runne in their lether Ierkins after worldly gaine and pleasure That Ambrose esteemed highly the office of bishops is apparant for hee 3 In eph 4. saith that those that are nowe called bishops succeede in the charge and place of gouernment of the Apostles Chrysostome taketh to himselfe the power of excommunication yeeldeth to bishops the power of ordeining 4 In 1. Tim 4. epist Paul ad Philip. homil ad pop Antioch ministers ouer whom he giueth them authoritie himselfe was a bishop of great power and authoritie hee condemneth certaine heretikes which would not yeelde the due titles to bishops but called them onely 5 In Psal 13. reuerentia tua dignitas tua and such like termes condemned by Chrysostome reuerend and worshipfull euen like to the platformers what shame then haue these fellowes that blush not to make either so holy a bishop contrary to himselfe or manifestly to belye him and slaunder him wherefore let the words of Chrysostem against bishops be brought forth if hee bring them not Hom. 2. in epist ad Phil. euery man will take him for a plaine false coyner of authorities which nowe is in part apparant he saith that the names of bishops and priests were all one but that all bishops and priests should haue equall authoritie he saith not nor euer thought That Gregory the great is alledged against bishops is a matter most miraculous for in his time the bishoppes of Rome were come to extraordinarie greatnes incroched not only vpon their neighbors but also vpō most christian Churches so far was he frō condēning the state of bishops in the preface to his dialogues if they be his as is most vnlike he reprehendeth those that waxed old in worldly desires which neither in bishops nor other is to be alowed against episcopal authoritie he saith nothing the power of bishops ouer priests euery wherein his epistles he commendeth The quotation out of Hillary maketh nothing to the purpole hee reprehendeth Constantius the Emperor for aduancing bishops aboue the degree of bishops but that maketh for bishops and not against them for hee disaloweth not the state but the Emperors too much forwardnesse in giuing Arrian bishops too much honour and credite The Libeller hath a strange sight in 1 Ep. 67. Synesius if he thinke that he spake any thing against bishops percase he had on his 2 Those dreames that passe through horny doores as Homer feigneth are vntrue for horne is not trans parent horne spectacles when hee read them without such sight nothing is to be found in Synesius against our cause If he would haue made any conclusion out of him he would haue acknowledged so much him selfe He alledgeth with like iudgment Nazianzen his oration aduersus Maximum yet in all his works is there not any such oration found there is an oration of such matters as Gregory did against Maximus but concerning the superioritie of bishops there is nothing therein least of all any thing against bishops neither is it like he would speake against bishops himself being a bishop alowing the state of bishops he gouerned with authoritie his 1 Cum auctoritate hic praesidemus haec multis ex vobis tamquam lege sancimus Nazianz. in orat de modest in disputat seruanda words were obserued as lawes in the church he saith 2 Ibidem there is order while bishops commaund and others are ruled of such as these felowes are that wil neither obserue order nor rule he complaineth and commendeth that which they despise only he speaketh against ambitious seeking the greatest bishopricks and highest places wishing that the principality should be remoued rather then such incōueniences admitted Origene 3 In Esaiam hom 6. giueth most ample titles authority to bishops euen in the same place where he is supposed to speake against thē onely he would not haue them insult nor tyrannise ouer the people which the bishops of England neither doe nor can doe according to lawes but the Aldemen of the consistorie whose word is proofe and will law and against whose wrongs there is no sufficient remedie by appeale they do properly tyrannife yea oligarchize and therefore against such cruell tyrants Origen declaymeth and we
must be ruinated and al lawes abolished that the confusion of the Consistorie barbarisme of this new discipline may triumph ouer the church In France and Scotland they want much of that discipline they desire nay the Ministers want meanes pore men to mainteine thēselues and their families yea the Church wanteth sufficient and learned ministers and is glad to vse the ministerie of boyes and vnlearned youthes wanting all thinges saue boldnes yet they will not say that for these disorders or want of their desires it is reason that the ministerie and their aldermen should be changed and all ouerthrowen The 2 1. Eliz. 2. Statutes giue power to her Maiestie and her ecclesiasticall commissioners to appoint orders for the ornaments of the Church doth it therefore follow that surplesses and other ceremonies are to be abolished By like reason a man may couclude that all lawes are entended to be taken away because the prince and parliament haue authoritie so to doe a reason well beseeming such sencelesse felowes as vnderstand no reason for nether is the consequent good a posse adesse nor if the conclusion were granted would this man obtaine his desire concerning his consistorial discipline for albeit alteration be made in the ministers apparel yet may the same be made the state standing and the consistorie falling to dust so that if he looke for no other alteration then that which is entended by our lawes he his consistorie may goe and consider vpon some better reasons In the meane while hee saith that some of our chiefe defendors of religion against the papists confesse That diuers abuses in ceremonies and discipline were tollerated among vs the church yeelding to the infirmitie of the weake which were to be altered when people grewe to riper knowledge Wherein as in other things he dealeth falsely for neither is it true that 1 Fulke retent pag. 98. Doctor Fulke saith That our ceremonies or discipline is to be altered nor is he though a most learned man one of our chiefe defendors But suppose it were granted that he then thought that some alteration in ceremonies and discipline were to be admitted doth it therefore followe that the church must be spoyled bishops and ecclesiastical persons put frō their charges and a sort of hungrie cormorants brought into gouernement againe suppose this one man in his youth were of some strange conceite cōcerning the euerlasting blessed consistorie yet doth not one make a number where then be the rest forsooth in the intention of the libeller that is now hatching of newe heresies Can. 20. and fooleries But saith hee the bishops confesse in their canons that non residencie is a filthie thing and diuers confesse that lay men should not meddle with excommunication and that diuers lewde and vnlearned Ministers haue entered into the Church which were it supposed to be true yet addeth nothing to the cause of the consistorie for we deny not that men be men that there be faults in the execution of lawes therefore such as offend are to be punished not as this discrasied disputor would cōclude al lawes to be abolished a new gouernmēt to be erected in the law we denie that there is eyther impietie or abuse in men we doe not deny nay wee wish that such as giue scandale were remoued that by their defaults the commō cause might not be hurt if the consistorial faction could cleare themseluelues of impietie abuse in their gouernmēt it would be better for thē but they must thinke that there are faultes among them aswel as among others that they are no angels but men yea and many very odde men and men made of very strange humors Master D. Cosin confesseth that the punishment of adulterie is too milde and others be of his opinion for we do not say that euery point of lawe is so perfect or that things can be so stable that there can be nothing added or detracted if they should say so of their consistorie as some men douteth not they should but make a great leasing as is euident by the particulers of their gouernment what then will the libeller conclude of this our opinion doth he thinke that his consistorial discipline must come in place if he do he is abused for the imperfections impieties iniustice thereof is to to notorious That in the consecratiō of bishops the pastoral staffe laying on of the bible is cōmanded by law to be vsed is one of the libellers lewd vntrueths for no such thing is foūd in the booke of ordeining of ministers neither doth any other lawe commande any such matter but suppose it were cōmanded the same were omitted were it reason as this libeller auoweth because the archbishop vnto whose discretion many things are referred by lawe omitteth some ceremonie that therefore euery contentious companion should breake all orders let this be put among the cōclusiōs of discipline or rather disorder for such in deed is this discipline a scholler would rather haue cōcluded that he ought to be forced to obserue law thē that others because he breaketh law in one point should take occasion to breake law in all to cōclude his vnsauery tale against the ecclesiastical gouernment he saith that a 1 Aduertisement to the Church of England c. lerned man friend to the bishops noteth as abuses their vrging of subscriptiō their othes ex officio their excōmunicatiō for trifles and easie silencing of ministers wherein he saith not amisse concerning the gentlemans learning for in deed he is both graue learned now vnderstandeth and hath learned that neither in subscription nor examination of parties vpon their othes ecclesiasticall iudges doe any thing against either lawes of God or men or reason nor that any is excommunicate for trifles or minister silenced but for good cause and by his owne default nor that subscription is a new deuise being vsed in most ancient counsels and with great rigour exacted at Geneua and in all France which I would also haue the libeller to learne and also to speake the trueth and to deale honestly for no man is excommunicate in ecclesiastical courts but for 1 Quo minor culpa co maior contumacia Beza aduers Erast contumacie neither is any put to silence but such as shew themselues rebellious but what if some abuse were would not reason require that the abuse should rather be taken away then that there should be made a dangerous innouation in state these things considered I referre to euery mans iudgement what maner of disputor this felow is that either speaketh no trueth or els alledgeth such matters as make not to the purpose that the fathers or counsels yea or late writers of name speake against such Bishops as we haue is vntrue that some malcontents haue declaymed against the state is not denied that there are abuses in execution of lawe therefore our lawes to be abolished and the consistorie to be
with gaine and other vanities are polluted whose ignorance maketh them vncapable of ecclesiastical function Those elders which Ambrose speaketh of assisted the bishop with coūsell these are not counsellers but controllers gouerners with voyces equall to the bishop His elders were in cathedrall churches onely these are in euery 3 So our platformers would haue it albeit the Geneuians practise be farre diuers paltry village Those were men learned these are ignorant marchants artificers and clownes for the most part Nothing can be more repugnant thē Ambrose and the Disciplinarians Ambrose 4 Lib. 8. cp 64. sheweth that excommunication belonged to bishops these put the keyes into the hands of strange elders yet very yong in Gods church good for nothing but to oppresse the ministerie and learning such elders as Ambrose speaketh of were deriued from the Iewes but such Aldermen as these haue deuised the Iewes had none Ambrose his elders were not temporary nor all of counsell these are Ambrose complayneth that the Bishop and his Clerkes did not liue in common as in time 5 Inter Can. Syluestri past yet such was the griedinesse of bishops that it was necessary to diuide the church goods and such was the negligence of priests that they were sent out of cities to dwell in the countrey which now is obserued and that which Ambrose complayned of restored viz. that certaine of the chiefe of the ministery should be assistant to the bishop what then would these fellowes haue more would they haue all the ministers of a diocesse to liue in one citie and to ioyne in hearing of all matters This would be a beginning of singular non residence cause of great trouble cōfusion not a meanes to do iustice but to hinder iustice After Ambrose succeedeth Hierome a mā most vnfit to speak for the new eldership for if that be true which he saith that bishops elders in the primitiue church were all one then away goe the aldermen that are no bishops which reason did so sticke to Bezaes fingers 1 De presbyter aduers Erast Epist ad Heliod disputing against Erastus for the eldership that hee could no way lay it downe handsomely without the ruine of his cause Againe if in Hieroms time all Clerkes did feede with the worde much more did priests Neither doeth it make for these mens cause that he saith that as the Iewes so the Christians had a Counsell in euery cathedrall church for that is his meaning for that was of ministers and is obserued in our cathedrall churches and vtterly ouerthroweth the presumption of these vnlearned aldermen that with vnwashen feete tread in the sanctuary with filthy hands leaden heads handle matters of religiō faith churchgouernment wtout colour or title taking the keyes out of the successors of the apostles hands Possidonius 2 In vit August Socrates albeit they are said to speake of the consistorie and that plainely 3 Lib. 5. cap. 21. yet cleerely ouerthrowe the same for neither of them euer vnderstoode or heard of any temporary lay elders such as are lately raised from the dunghill to the highest tribunall of the church Nor do they speake of others then such as liued in cōmunity with the bishops in their cathedrall churches such as we haue in our church of which also the canon 4 Dist 95. c. ecce 15. q. 7. si quid law maketh mētion declaring their office to consist in preaching administring the sacraments so that I cannot but wonder with what visage that libeller could alleadge the colledges of ministers of the worde assistant to bishops in their Cathedrall churches to proue Elderships in euery village assistant to euery minister and consisting of prophane and vnlearned men and neither hauing salary nor salt of discretion nor continuance as the other had Of these allegations therefore this conclusion may bee drawen out that in counsels Fathers and antiquitie there is not any argument or coniecture found of all that Discipline which these newfangled platformers desire Nay there is not any proofe for the same in the new writers onely I except the Geneuians and their followers that haue shamefully applyed scriptures to their Disciplinarian dreames The churches of Saxony Wittenberg Nuremberg Strausborgh Ausburg Frankeforde Hamborgh and other places of Germany the county Palatine except likewise the churches of Zuricke Berne Basill other true christian churches in Zuitzerland Denmarke Sueueland Pomerany Poland and Hungary and all the learned men that gouerned those churches both in their doctrine and practise are against the discipline of the new Consistories Moreouer those that speake for the Consistories are not all of one opinion In the state of Geneua there is but one cōsistory there are not many that agree about the proofe parts office or lawes of it In Geneua they doe not allow their consistory power to make or disanull lawes In Fraunce they giue that power to synodes The consistoriall discipline in France was at first receiued of a fewe and that not for euidence of Scripture or proofe or reason but by suffrages of the Nobilitie and Gentry whereof some too well liked the sacrilegious doctrine and by the earnest labour of Beza desirous to conforme other churches to that of Geneua most of the learned ministers dissenting from him and disallowing his absurde discipline and not yeelding before the Princes to whome they serued constrayned them What reason then hath any to pleade for the consistoriall gouernment which is vnknowen to all antiquite and repugnant to Apostolicall practise and the most florishing Churches in Europe and was receiued with grudge of learned men and onely resteth vpon the conceite of Caluin Beza Daneau and some halfe score of blind writers as Iohn Baptista that ignorant Italian and Sneccan and Bertrand de Loques and Oleuian and Robert Stephen a better Printer then diuine and Perot and de Plurre and I knowe not whom neither of marke nor qualitie especially seeing so many pregnant reasons are brought against the translation of it from the Iewes and establishment of it among Christians as none haue answered and this libeller thinketh it most wisedome to passe ouer with silence If this be a good argument that Daneau Bertrand de Loques Bastingius Iunius Piscator Oleuian Caluin Beza Sneccan and Iohn Baptista d'Aureli thinke so how good will this reason be that all the fathers of all ages haue bene of a contrary iudgement and diuers godly Martyrs and learned men in our Church and other reformed Churches in Germany Zuitzerland Denmarke induced with better reasons haue thought otherwise Besides all this it shall appeare that those authors which the libeller alledgeth neuer beleeued that eyther in time past there was a consistorie of partie coluored Aldermen like to that this libeller desireth or that such a one now ought to be placed in euery Church That Zuinglius shoul de teach or beleeue that Christ did institute such Aldermen
bolts euen bitter and slanderous words Besides the former the libeller hath also these faultes most fouly hee abuseth scriptures most shamefully hee alledgeth authors most ignorantly hee talketh of lawe and maliciously reuelleth at the ecclesiasticall state in the first page hee abuseth three places of scripture the 1 Prouerb 31. wise man sayth open thy mouth for the dumbe c. by this place he would iustifie his babbling in this treatise but nothing is more impertinent to his purpose then this sentence for the wise man would haue innocents that cannot speake for themselues defended by order and iustice by such as can speake neyther may wee thinke that it was his meaning that euery seditious person shoulde gape and rayle against Lawes and Gouernours for doing iustice or that malefactours shoulde bee defended against lawe and iudges how can then this place agree to his purpose seeing those men whome the libeller defendeth are not innocentes for they were condemned for felonie and tryed according to the lawes of England neyther were they mute when they reuelled against gouernours nor was Iohn Vdall condemned but for speaking too much nor is this busie behauiour of this companion any way allowed nor sedition or libelling priutledged The Prophet sayth further Psal 115. that because hee beleeued therefore he spake which the libeller turneth answere and woulde drawe to this his treatise but it fitteth not for this petition is no answere but rather a rayling libell or challenge neyther proceedeth it of faith but of a foolish disordered conceite of a distempered brayne not yet well seasoned since the authors last bedlem fits and if this bee his beliefe then is his faith built vpon fancie and vpon that which himselfe confesseth he knoweth not Neyther doth it appertayne to his purpose that the Prophet sayth that for Sions sake he will not hold his peace for it is not the cause of Sion Isai 62. nor any good cause but sedition faction fancie conceit and opinion that by him is here defended that to the great scandale of all the watchmen of Sion yea of althat pray for the peace of Ierusalem in the end of his articles against Bishops as if hee were rauished in an ecstasie hee exclameth how long Lord holy and true and saith come Lord Iesu which sentences make much against him for all good men desire that God would trie the cause and that he in iudgement would visite the perturbers of this Church which if once it shal please him to determine to doe then shall hee and such vipers as hee that fret the bowels of the Church which nourisheth them be discouered punished rooted out these may serue you for a tast the rest of his forgeries and forcing of authors shal be touched as they shall offer themselues in their place Neyther may wee thinke that he that maketh so litle conscience to abuse or dally with the scriptures of God hath vsed more religion in handling the writings of men for example to prooue the aldermen of his Church their proceedings he hath alledged Luther Zuinglius Melancthon and many others that are contrarie to these men in their discipline and neuer knewe such aldermen as he speaketh of neyther doth Caluin nor Beza ioyne with him in his seuerall poynts of discipline therefore doth he alledge them in grosse and abuseth his readers with a shew of names the like abuse shall appeare in his quotations of lawe which he by forging and lying maketh to speake contrary to lawe Little doth hee vnderstand of lawe hee neyther knoweth what proceeding of office meaneth nor what is lawe in ministring of othes against which hee argueth neyther any one poynt of common ciuill or Canon lawe of which hee so much standeth but whatsoeuer his knowledge is in lawe his malice in rayling against the state is singuler all which poyntes as they are touched here in a generalitie so hereafter shall bee more particularly layde open and most of his misallegations falsifications malicious slaunders weake proofes and proceedings answered not that eyther the author whose insufficiencie is notorious nor the discourse the weakenesse whereof is too too pitifull deserueth any answere but least that the simplicitie of the ignorant who is easily misled with these great shewes might be abused or iustice be by opinions controlled herein also all men may vnderstand the weakenes of the cause of the Consistorie the boldnesse malice and fashood of the Consistorians and such as contend for it and how fit it were that such as are altogether vncapable of reason should be gouerned if not enforced by lawes The author whatsoeuer he pretendeth for colour proposeth to himselfe to proue diuerse thinges First that the Ecclesiasticall gouernement of the Church of England is to be changed for that doth he meane by reformed Secondly That an Eldership should be established among vs as being a gouernement vsed in the ancient Church and commaunded to be continued in all ages and to the end that his reasons may be weighed he craueth disputation by aduised writing Thirdly he mainteineth that the disciplinarian faction hath not offended against the statute of 23. Eliz. c. 2 and that Iohn Vdal was vniustly condemned Fourthly he would declare That the consistoriall patrons are vniustly slaundered with desire of innouation and their doctrine with disloyaltie or disorder and endeuoreth to excuse himselfe for not declaring himselfe nor setting his name to his petition Lastly by diuers Articles and questions he goeth about to bring the Ecclesiasticall state into enuie and hatred That while men are busie in examining their faultes his clients of the new disguised discipline may escape in the darke and without danger vndermine the estate To meete therfore with his malice and to encounter him in al his turnes I doe purpose by Gods grace to shewe First that the gouernement of the Church of England is most conformable to the practise of the gouernment both vnder the lawe and the gospell and hath testimonie of scriptures confirmation of antiquitie and was neuer gainesaid but of late dayes when factious companions and clouters and tinkers and marchants and men of occcupatiō aspired to Church gouernement and that the cauils and proofes brought by the petitioner against it are fond and foolish Secondly that the noueltie vanitie iniustice and inconueniences of the new gouernement are such as cannot stand with any good or well ordered state wherein also the insufficient pleading of the petitioner for the Consistorie shall be refuted thirdly that Iohn Vdall was iustly condemned and that the platformers are iustly charged not onely with breach of diuers lawes very penall but also with sedition and faction and therefore are most mercifully dealt withall that they are nether in greater number nor in other qualitie punished the vaine glosses that are set vpon their factes and opinions shall be there also wiped away in the last part of this treatise such accusations as the libellor hath brought to disgrace the Ecclesiasticall gouernement
established doth not follow Wherefore vnlesse the author his partakers haue better supply of reasons then he hath brought here there is no cause he should desire conference or disputation If he desire to shew his skil in writing why doth he not take those bookes that haue bene written in this argument in hand and confute thē frō point to point why doth not T. Cartw. answere in the defence of his consistorie If he say that imprisonment hath hitherto bene an hinderance vnto him yet will not that excuse serue the rest that were neuer in prison why doe not W. Tr. Will. Ch. D. Sp. and others confirme their demonstrations of discipline wherein all their reasons stand confuted hauing so much worke to doe why shoulde he desire more belike this petition was made to bragge men downe but if he thinke he can do it he deceiueth himselfe for as farre as her Maiestie and lawes will permit they shall find a number readie in all sortes to encounter them but the libellers meaning is not to dispute as I thinke for no man hath worse grace in disputing nor more simple facultie in writing by hiding his head he seemeth rather to be ready to flye then fight his talke therefore of aduised writings is idle for both T. Cartw. and he hath written many things vnaduisedly and both flye the hammering of their cause only his purpose is to slander the state by libels to lurke in corners to haue all ecclesiasticall lawes and gouernement left without defence so that euery man might speake against them without eyther feare of punishment or controlment which neyther is good nor commendable for it would be most absurde if 3 or 4 difformed platformers should be suffered to dispute in schooles that her Maiesties authoritie is vnlawfull that our lawes and gouernement is wicked that the state is to be changed As for the course that Doctor Rainolaes vsed against Hart it was lawfull he being thereto authorised percase fitting for him might better be suffred being in poynts of religion resolued then in gouernement doubted of yet was it long and without effect but this course of priuate conference by writing which the libeller desireth in this cause is leude being against her Maiestie the lawes and state it would bee a way to rebellion it would make more contention it would bee infinite tedious and to no purpose the godly and Christian Emperors of Rome were of a contrary mind to this libeller for in diuerse expresse lawes they vpon great penalties forbid any to call in question the confession of faith of the Church 1 Cod. de sum trinit fid cath forbidding vt nemode capublicè contendere audeat neither doth the 2 Admonit de de lib. concord author of the admonition to the Churches of Saxonye allowe any such course as the libeller desireth nay his desire is that matters may bee discussed in some synode of learned men what shame then is it to deuise leude meanes to trouble the Church and falsly to impute them to those that neuer vsed them nor thought them conuenient the libeller therefore may do well hereafter to leaue to the wisedome of her Maiestie and the rest of the gouernors of the Church common wealth the composing of matters which is best wrought by good lawes and sharpe punishment that such as will not be answered with reason may like dizards bee corrected with rods wherein if he thinke himselfe dealt withall vniustly let him come forth when he will eyther in aduised or vnaduised writing his cause shal be prooued wicked and his consortes facts auowed punishable CAP. II. That there neuer was any gouernment by Church aldermen or supposed Ecclesiasticall Consistorie eyther vnder the lawe or in the Apostles times or after nor can without great iniurie to the Church of England to the Magistrates and others be admitted ALthough this positiō hath bene so fully 1 In the booke de presbyterio proued that neither T. Cartw. nor his schollers nor the whole packe of our aduersaries haue as yet made answere yet because the booke where the discourse is cōteined is in latine which percase thou vnderstandest not the argumēts lie dispersed so that without difficulty they cannot be gathered I wil here make a briefe of thē So shalt thou see what a cleare trueth this wise disputer thinketh to batter with vaine shew of mens opinions and be better resolued of the notorious vanitie of the consistoriall discipline That the Iewes had no meere ecclesiasticall consistory distinct frō the benches that handled ciuil causes these reasons may ascerteine vs. First there is no place of scripture where the institution of it may be found Those iudges that are mentioned Exod. 18 Deut. 17 are of an other sort for they heard all ciuil causes yea causes of blood inflicted ciuil punishmēts vpon offenders Those that are founde in the 11 of Numbers were of the princes counsel And other sorts of Collegiat Elders and Iudges are none found Let them shew them if they can the place of Leuiticus toucheth onely priestes in particuler and matters concerning their only office Further there appeareth no cōmission to haue bene giuē to any bēch of Iudges to determine ecclesiastical causes seuerally neither are there any lawes prescribed in Gods word to direct them by so that if any Iudged in such causes they proceeded both without authority and also direction which were very absurd to thinke for if God had appointed any such order of Iudges hee would no doubt haue giuen them authoritie and directions There appeareth not the lest step of any act of any such eccle siastical cōsistory through the whole scriptures or stories of the Iewes there is no memory found of thē in the time of Moses nothing vnder the iudges or kings or in the decay of the Iewish state not so much as the Sanedrin that condēned Christ to death is any precedent of the ecclesiastical cōsistorie whatsoeuer Beza can say to the cōtrary for it was the only remainder of the Iewish pollicy succeeded in the place of the counsell Numbers 11 and of the Iudges appointed Deut. 17 as is apparent by examination of the authority and acts of it All that authority which this ecclesiastical consistory is supposed to haue was either in thepriests or princes The princes in the time of Moses of the iudges kings made lawes and gaue souereign directiōs The priests iudged of things cleane vncleane executed caused al ecclesiasticall orders to be obserued 2. Chron. 19. exod 18. The priests Leuites appointed by the prince iudged of right wrong consecrated others to the functions of priesthood where was thē the ecclesiastical chimerical consistory all this while or how could it be supposed that others would encroch vpō the priestsoffice being debarred by Gods law not being mentioned in scripture or histories Neither are the ecclesiastical consistories commended for wel doing
al these mens deuises be nought worth how litle is the rest thereof to bee valued sure if that which themselues confesse bee not sufferable the rest must needs be vntollerable which if the petitioner know not he is but a nouice in his owne cause and knoweth litle or nothing if he knew he is very impudent that dare defend such maner of persons They openly professe and acknowledg that they bee sinnefull men Petitioner A great matter Answere for albeit they shoulde neyther professe nor confesse so much yet woulde the same appeare but too too euidently In doctrine their leud heretical opinions In maners their pride malice crueltie couetousnesse vsury gluttonie and chamber cheare which they call fasting and colour with tearmes of godly exercises doe notoriously conuince them neither do I yet tell all for other matters I haue thought good to keepe for an ariere bāquet for that I would not haue the libeller surfet which he would percase doe if too much were set before him at once They call not themselues puritanes Petitioner Vntruth Answere for both Martin this petitioner calleth his 1 Pag. 83. consorts puritanes yea and others more honest men then eyther of the two which wee are rather to beleeue then the petitioner call them so and that rightly for commonly they appropriate vnto themselues the name of the saints of godly brethren and such like and account and call others that be not of their faction 2 Martins hay any work and his minerals prophane They esteeme also the 3 T. C. eldership a pure gouernment and other corrupt and T. Cartw. calleth his cause the cause of sincerity why then are they not iustly called puritanes percase they wil answere that they are impure filthie fellowes which in deed is true for their puritie neither consisteth in life nor doctrine for none therein can be lesse pure vnlesse it be in bare conceit but in outward shewes false semblant vaine protestations of reformation gogling of eyes and painted hypocrisie this excuse therefore that they doe not call themselues puritanes were it true yet is it vnsufficient seeing they take vpon themselues to be more pure then others as did the puritanes of old time for we may not thinke that the Cathari or Nouatians accounted themselues without sinne but were called puritanes for seuering themselues from others which they accounted lesse pure then themselues They do absolutely yeeld and subscribe to the Articles of Christian faith Petitioner and doctrine professed in the Church of England And therfore offend not against the statute made 23. of Elizabeth c. 12. concerning that purpose This is a palpable vntrueth Answere for both doe they put out certaine articles and adde others vnto the Apostles Creede And T. C. and Fenner confound person and essence in the Deitie and make the sonne to proceede from God the Father The article concerning bishoppes and homilies and Ecclesiasticall gouernement they vtterly denie and therefore are both schismatikes and heretikes and offend against that statute most directly and denie it shamefully and cauill most absurdly for where the Parliament calleth all the booke and the pointes therein conteined Articles of Religion These subscribe onely to the Articles of Faith and Sacraments Expounding faith strictly and discharging thēselues easilie and expounding statutes contrarie to the opinion of Iudges Call you this consistoriall interpretation They giue to her Maiestie all that power Petitioner that is recognised to be in her highnes by the othe of supremacie as it is by her Maiestie expounded and therefore be no traytors How can this be Answere seeing they deny her power to nominate bishops to make ecclesiasticall lawes to determine ecclesiasticall causes or to delegate others to heare and determine them and take away the last appeale and cognition from her and giue her not any tenths or subsidies how I say may this be seeing they take away both her ecclesiasticall authoritie and her reuennues and giue this power partly to Elderships partly to Synodes partly to Deacons new found creatures And therefore albeit they take the othe of supremacie yet they deny her supreme power vnder colour of the interpretation of the iniunction which abridgeth not her power in cases expressed Beware therefore Libeller and touch this string no more for it soundeth but badly in all loyall subiects eares They professe all obedience to the Lordes of the counsell Petitioner the Iudges and ciuil Magistrates and therefore be not Anabaptistes He saith they professe all obedience Answere but if he would haue excused his clyents he should haue said they performe it for the Iesuites doe in termes professe obedience yet none more factious this is a point that doeth neerely touch his cause and would haue required more diligence in clearing of it For whatsoeuer they professe in this petition both their doctrine and behauiour is contrarie They set the subiectes against the prince as hath bene shewed and haue wilfully oppugned all her Maiesties ecclesiastical lawes they vse her with bitter termes Martin saith her Maiestie is 1 Epist p. 10. 53. seduced and that God 2 Hay any worke alloweth not her gouernement and that she biddeth 1 Ibidem battell to God They teach that Ministers ought 2 Regist p. 48. not to obey the prince when he prescribeth ceremonies and fashions of apparell They accuse her maiestie eyther of ignorance being abused or vnthankefulnes to God and negligence 3 Motion with submission pap 41. in her duetie They resemble her to 4 Gilbie Ieroboam Achab Iehoram and other wicked princes They that wrote the 5 2. Admonit Admonition acuse the high court of parliament of iniquitie affirme that it shall be easier for Sodom and Gomorrha then that court and calleth the Lords politike Machiauels Penrie accuseth 6 Supplication them of betraying God and his kingdome and prophecieth of the Spaniardes to come and wast the land They affirme That our counsell 7 Epistle before reformation no enemie may truely be said to delight in iniurie and violent oppression of Gods saintes And that the Lordes cannot possibly bee said to deale in 8 Ibidem matters of Iustice They charge them with maintenance of impietie and say that with 9 Ibidem Pilate they crucifie Christ. They affirme that the Magistrates and Ministers haue walked hand in hand in the contempt of true religion They call the Iudges wicked lawyers and Atheists Vpon ecclesiasticall 10 Vdals dialogue and Martins Epist gouernours they raile most impudently calling them robbers wolues simoniakes persecutors and such like And therefore if they bee not accompted Anabaptists they haue the more wrong seeing in all disobedience and vnciuill reproches they passe the Anabaptists This is the onely difference that Anabaptistes reuell against all Magistrates these against such especially as withstand their rebellious deseignements They holde it lawfull before
know not if they doe I defend them not But sure I am that no officers take lesse To let others passe I know certaine Pettifoggers and Scribes like the forgers of these articles that by taking are growen to wealth and a Scribe that for signing and sealing a letter hath had not three pence but three pounds and a good gelding for expedition neither is any thing more vsuall then the bribery extortion and coosinage of these companions that are most busie in watching and accusing of others Let them therefore take heede that they may be able to cleare themselues and for ecclesiasticall officers that haue taken more then ordinarie spare them not In this taking worlde it were good that takers of all sortes were looked vnto Article 4 No forreyn constitutions c. haue any force in our state 25. H. 8. cap. 19. yet the Bishops in their consistories practise Romish and Imperiall constitutions Answere In these few words many great faults are cōmitted first he iumbleth Romish Imperiall constitutions together as if the same were both one or as if the law of the Pandects were called Constitutiōs secondly he calleth her Maiesties lawes forrein lawes making this realme crowne to depend vpō forrein power which is derogatorie to her Highnesse auctoritie and contrary to practise of Lawe For whencesoeuer any lawe is deriued yet is it the lawe of that countrey where it is practised The lawes of the Romanes for the most part were borrowed of the Athenians and Spartans yet were it absurde to call the lawes of the twelue tables the Lawes of the Greekes Thirdly ignorantly he supposeth that the statute condemneth forreyn lawes yet doeth it not speake of any forreyn lawes but onely of the ecclesiasticall lawes of Englande the equitie whereof is so apparant that if twelue Consistories and so many Scribes and Proctors should all ioyne their heads together yet could they not deuise any one lawe so equall as the worst of these that are in vse and those that haue gone about to make other Lawes and correct the olde haue committed such errours as their friendes may bee greatly ashamed in their behalfe The Ordinances of Geneua and articles of French discipline and that pelfe that ours call Holy Discipline shall testifie this to bee true as by particulers I will shewe when neede is Lastly they charge the Bishops for putting in vre forreyn Constitutions and yet cannot name one 1 In their meetings at Warwike Cambridge Oxford especially when the new discipline was vpon forging But if the Bishops offende that execute her Maiesties Lawes howe will this Accuser answere for his Clyents that haue in secrete conuenticles enacted and also practised Canons and Lawes directly contrary to her Maiesties Lawes and Prerogatiue and therefore are to suffer imprisonment and pay fine at her Maiesties pleasure by the same statute they alledge against vs. Article 5 Such Canons and Constitutions onely as bee not repugnant to the Lawes Statutes and Customes of this Realme ought to be put in practise 25. H. 8. c. 19. But the bishops giue sentence in infinite matters which would be otherwise ruled by the Common Lawes Answere If the Bishops or other Ecclesiasticall officers should deale either contrary to Lawe or without warrant of Lawe they coulde not escape punishment hauing so many spitefull eyes to watch ouer them neyther if they should attemptit would the reuerend Iudges which are to grant prohibitions in that case permit it If they doe against the lawes of the Realme why are not the lawes named and men charged and the fact noted This silence of the babling accuser is their sufficient discharge and his vaine discourse voyd of reasons a condemnation of his babbling Article 6 The Bishops haue reckoned such men as haue bene ordeyned ministers in reformed Churches to be lay men Answere All haue not so reckoned them yet if they had they had not done it without cause for they thēselues say the bond is only mutual betwixt the minister that particular congregation whereof he is made minister and that one congregation cannot appoint ministers for another and our lawes allow none but made after our orders Why then do not new made ministers packe away to their makers Why doe they run away from their congregations like recreant souldiours from their stations Here they haue no calling Both popish priests and they alike may wel be accounted with vs to haue no calling being both by their owne doctrine and by the statute of 13. Eliz. c. 12. debarred from the ministerie and for their hatred to the Church most vnworthy of any ecclesiasticall function or to liue in the Church which with all their might and malice they haue oppugned Article 7 The law requireth a subscription to articles of religion onely that concerne the confession of true faith and doctrine of sacraments 13. Eliz. c. 12. The bishops vrge a subscription to the bookes of homilies and diuers ceremonial and transitory matters neyther concerning faith nor sacraments Answere The statute requireth subscriptiō to the booke of articles and euery article therein conteined among therest to the doctrine cōcerning our ecclesiastical regiment Homilies that is cleare by the words of the statute that mētioneth the booke and al the articles therin conteined and by interpretation of the most learned lawyers And if it were not so thē would it followe that a great part of that booke which the parliamēt meant to confirme is voyde which were to euert lawes by cauils as these doe not to interpret lawe Neither doth it helpe the platformers that the title of the booke is Articles concerning faith and sacraments For things are denominated of the greatest part and in our account matters of gouernment are directed by the word of God which is the ground of faith Neither woulde it bee taken if any papist should take exception to any article in that booke and not subscribe for that it apperteyneth not to faith nor sacraments Besides the allowance of lawes and statutes the Bishops for this subscription that is required vnto three articles haue sufficient warrant In vaine therefore woulde the articulators oppugne lawes by law and disloyally doe they spurne at her Maiesties authoritie yea in cases wherein they cannot take any iust exceptions bluntly subscribing to al the fond discipline of Geneua to the which wee can take so many sufficient exceptions But if it be such a fault to make men subscribe to lawes whereunto euery man is supposed to yeeld his consent in parliament and whereto euery one ought to obey what punishment doth T.C. and his bold companions deserue that subscribed to canons constitutions made in a corner directly ouerthrowing her Maiesties supremacy ecclesiastical lawes a great part of the lawes of the realm if they were receiued And if subscription bee so heynous a matter why is it required at Geneua in France to most simple orders not for gouernement but for the vtter debasing impouerishing and
is offended with not singing which he affirmeth to be no small peccadillio So neither singing nor saying pleaseth them What then is best for them Forsooth silence That any doeth offend in this point when hee is put to it he will not be able to iustifie Article 18 The names of the Communicants before they receiue should be signified to the Curate yet this is not regarded in most places Answere That is not the Curats fault but rather of those that should signifie it if any be Let the Communicants therfore signifie their names The curates to please his maship shall be alwayes readie to open their eares which notwithstanding will not make for the libellers aduantage for if his name be brought hee will be vndoubtedly repelled for an vncharitable person vnsit to communicate among Christians Article 19 Notorious lewd persons be admitted to the Communion yet should the Curate repell such Answere If they doe repell such as it is notorious then is this libeller a notorious lyer yea a lyar and slaunderer in print But hee percase counteth those men notorious offenders which any one suspecteth Which if it were true then are most putitans notorious lewde persons that are commonly suspected for such and not without cause For further answere I say that such as by sentence of the Iudge are pronounced culpable which are in deede notorious offenders are repelled and that to repell others were a course full of disorder and iniustice And lastly that hereafter such notorious rayling puritans as doe slaunder religion shall bee better looked vnto and be repelled both from the Communion and all honest mens societie being enemies of learning and scandales of religion Article 20 The Minister shoulde vse the ornaments appointed by King Edwarde Answere And doeth he not so If any doe otherwise it is of the factious sorte that deserueth punishment But saith the libeller the Clarke doeth also weare a surplice As if it followed because the Clarke weareth a surplice that the Minister doeth not All like as if a man should conclude because Giles Wiggington hath some little witte that this libeller hath none The meaning of the lawe is that such ornaments shall be vsed as were appointed by king Edward where other order should not be takē For later lawes abridge the former If then the accuser can shewe that lawes are not herein obserued he shall doe vs great fauour to name the offenders Article 21 In Cathedrall Churches the Communion should be ministredeuery Sunday at the least Answere If often Communions be commendable then is our Church to be preferred before that of Geneua that communicates onely quarterly Better therefore it were for malice to keepe silence then to say that which is nothing Let him if he can detect those that are culpable Article 22 The Godfathers doe not their duetie neither doe Bishops vrge them Answere Let him shewe that Bishops may doe it by lawe and then reproue them for not doing their duetie If it be left to the conscience of Godfathers to doe their dueties why should the Bishops be charged with other mens faultes Forsooth this libeller meaneth to lay all faultes on the Bishops backes I would to God for my part there were no faults but in Bishops so farre am I from enuying any mans puritie But this puritie I feare is but hypocrisie For many puritans mislike Godfathers and are very impure in life and conuersation Article 23 Bishops are commanded to confirme children yet fewe doe it Answere The puritans commonly deride Confirmation albeit a most auncient and Christian ceremonie This fellowe chargeth Bishops with a great fault for omitting it How will these agree Nay how will this companion verifie his assertion being most vntrue But if any bishops doe not confirme children it is because certaine factious persons haue perswaded the people to refuse it and that verie wickedlie not onely fantastically Article 24 Curates doe not instruct seruants and youth vpon holydayes Answere Causeles doeth this accuser barke against Curates seeing he cannot charge any particuler If he can let him call him before his superiors The exercise is good and godly neither doeth any account it tyrannie to instruct the ignorant But sure great presumption it is for yong puritans publiquely to examine graue and discreete men that know more then themselues and indiscretion to vse examination as the disciplinarians would haue it vsed Article 25 None should be admitted to the Communion that cannot say the Catechisme Therefore Curates should examine communicants and seelude them that be wanting in knowledge Answere Can you shewe any Curates that haue not done their dutie herein If you can carrie them before the Ordinarie they craue no fauour In the meane while learne this lesson of me Shewe not your cancred malice against good Ministers There is none but liueth as well as puritans nor any so base that may of a Pettifogger or Scriuano be contemned nor any that is more ignorant in their Catechisme then puritans that neuer enter deeper then the paraphrase of their Creede and pater noster Article 26 Banes should be asked three seueral Sundayes in the open Church yet the Bishops dispence with banes Answere In the booke it is Sundayes and Holy dayes this is therefore his first error The second is that he misliketh dispensations for both by law and customes of this Church and for good causes are they granted Neither doeth the affirmatiue without the negatiue in any lawe take away a custome that may stand with the lawe as in this case The lawe will haue banes three seuerall dayes proclaymed That no dispensation be graunted the lawe hath not Wherefore seeing dispensations are confirmed by lawe and not taken away by this Rubricke let the accuser holde his peace and cease to proclaime his owne follie and to worke the bane of his cause and finally while he would shewe skil in lawe to proue himselfe deuoyde of lawe and reason Article 27 The partie presented to the Bishop should weare a plaine Albe yet this garment is not vsed Answere In the booke of ordering Ministers there is no such garment appointed And if it were yet were it no such disorder as this charitable man maketh it that would haue the bishops thrust out of their liuings yea out of the Church for committing it But suppose Deacons should weare an Albe how is the neglect of it ascribed to Bishops and not rather to the partie that knoweth not his duetie or of new curiositie that can abide none apparell but of the Geneuian fashion would this libeller were a yellow cote it would become him better then an Albe Article 28 The Deacon by part of his office ought to search for the poore sicke and impotent of the parish and intimate their estates to the Curate But now the office is accompted mere spirituall Answere He ought onelie to doe it where he is so appointed which clause this accuser meaning no good trueth cautelously left out That he should only attend the poore and
haue more benefices then two with cure if they haue all but those they can keepe doe fall voyde lastly all this which hee draweth out of the Canons is to no purpose for they haue no strength of lawe Article 63 The bishops say that excommunication is a ciuill discommuning and company with excommunicate persons and if our Prelates were examined then were they excommunicate and worse then publicanes and heathen Answere Marke I pray you the intemperate furie of this base companion the honourable Prelates of this land reuerend for their learning yeeres grauitie place this crablouse swaine and paltrie parasite scornefully calleth iolly prelates and in changing scorne into rayling calleth them excommunicate persons yea worse then publicanes and heathen into such a streine of madnes is he entred looke Allen Stapleton other traytors discourses yet shall you find no such scornefull nor spitefull speaches and wherefore doth hee so reuile them forsooth because he supposeth they offend against canons yet neyther doth he prooue any fault nor can he shew that those canons are lawe nor can hee excuse his consorts that notoriously contemne all excommunications nor finally can hee disproue the common distinction of excommunication that one sort is ecclesiasticall the other ciuill and therefore as a furious for rayling without learning or wit against men of so high place hee is rather to bee corrected in Bedlem then refuted with long discourse I doubt not but the consistorie it selfe will bee ashamed of such kinde of dealing and all other reasonable men condemne it why the disciplinarians should talke of excommunication there is no reason forthey commit the same into prophane mens hands and are therein worse then heathen that neuer committed such holy things into so base mens hands This is the summe of all those articles that he hath gathered against the ecclesiasticall state a playne iustification of all their doings for if he could haue said more against them he would not haue spared and charging them with matters eyther tryfling or else vtterly vntrue declareth them to bee innocent himselfe to bee malicious and furious for the summe of all is nothing but a packe of vnruly wordes as Chapplaines Priestes iolly Prelates hangbyes excommunicate persons worse then heathen and publicanes licentious preachers extortioners bribers and such like I could requite him with better and as bitter tearmes but to answere his articles I will onely returne him but these few articles following A BRIEFE COLLECTION OF DIVERS haereticall and strange opinions lewde practises and fond fancies and deuices which certaine factious and light headed persons haue lately coloured and aduanced with glorious titles of discipline and reformation set downe in forme of Articles TH. Cartw. doth call the rules of his new discipline the 1 In the Epistbefore Fenners new diuinitie Axiomes or irrefragable principles of heauenly Canaan whereby he would in sinuate that they are without doubt to be receiued and yet can he not shewe that euer the eldership or the strange gouernement thereof was practised in Canaan vnlesse it were of the Cananites and enemies of Gods Church to the rooting out of Gods people and ouerthrow of the Ministerie 2 The disciplinarians holde that the gouernement of the Eldership is Christes kingdome and that they that withstand the same are enemies to Christ to religion and to Christes kingome and apply these wordes of the Gospel 2 Th. Cartw. in a certeine table Those mine enemies that would not haue me to reigne ouer them bring them and slay them before me Aplaine euidence that if with entreatie they cannot they meane by warres and bloodshed to set vp their kingdome and yet William Hacket their first king was crowned in Cheapeside with an hempen coronet or diademe and his garde and followers dipersed 3 They teach That the Church is onely to be gouerned by Christes lawes And yet are they not able to bring forth one worde for proofe of their consistorie or the partes of it or the office of euery seueral part of it or any part of their gouernment and seeme to rest onely vpon mens bare conceites and fancies contrarie both to scriptures equitie and reason 4 They professe great loyaltie in termes yet doubt not to say that the simplest Consistorie they haue may giue the prince to Satan 5 They take from the magistrate power to make ecclesiasticall lawes for the gouernment of the Church and yet at Geneua they haue no ecclesiasticall lawes but made by the magistrates 6 That authoritie which statutes giue to princes In calling and assembling of Synodes and appointing ecclesiasticall commissioners to heare and determine Ecclesiasticall matters and appointing delegates to represse wrongs offered in Ecclesiasticall courtes they take away and deny the supremacie of the prince very presumptuously 7 They ouerthrowe her Maiesties reuennues and dissolue the office of first fruites and tenthes 8 They deny her all authoritie to nominate Bishops or other officers of the Church and vtterly take away her right of patronage in all ecclesiasticall liuings 9 They dissolue all ecclesiasticall lawes and all those statutes that concerne Bishops or other Ministers or other ecclesiastical liuings person or cause 10 They deny that her Maiestie may pardon and graunt life to any offender Fenneri Theologia whome Moses lawe commandeth to be put to death and binde her to the obseruance of Moses iudiciall lawes 11 They seeke the ruine and ouerthrowe of the whole ecclesiasticall estate by abasing the Ministers of the Church beneath all others and laying infinite burthens vpon them and taking away all rewardes of learning a point which you my masters of the vniuersitie are to looke vnto 12 By ouerthrowing of the Ecclesiasticall state they doe depriue her Maiestie of many thowsands of able and most willing men to doe her seruice and make way to inward faction and forreine inuasion and all manner of heresies and disorders 13 They teach Th Cartw. reply that all magistrates are to licke the dust of the feete of the Eldership 14 They goe about to bring in forreine lawes and forreine and vncouth gouernors 15 They teach that in euery common wealth well gouerned Fenners holy diuinitie there ought some magistrates to be appointed to depose and ouerrule princes if they doe not their dueties like the Spartain Ephori 16 They teach that the prince may not determine any weightie matter Ibidem without the assemblie of the estates 17 They depraue the ecclesiasticall gouernement Martin and religion of this Church and call it antichristian and diuelish 18 They traduce the publike iustice of this land Martin and Epist before reformat no enemie and rayle against the parliament the lordes the Iudges the lawes and whatsoeuer misliketh them 19 They haue confederated themselues together That is euident by theit subscriptions for the ouer throwing of the ecclesiasticall lawes and state and haue subscribed certeine articles for the establishment of new lawes and gouernement 20 Cartwright and
Church and schooles are contemned I would I might not say discouraged they are made markes for licentious youthes armed with malice to shoote their boltes against the lawes are not onely contemned but most boldly oppugned yea with such confidencie that law is now accounted disorder and faction and tumult termed 2 Petition to her Maiestie reformation and libellers in euill time called reformers what resteth for them to worke but that al wise and learned men being put from gouernment the seely sots which these call elders and certaine famous authors of popular faction should be placed in the highest offices or else that lawes being not executed or Iudges crossed in executing of iustice the contumacious might liue as they list wherein they seeke nothing but that eyther the forreyne enemie may oppresse vs or els inward tumult and disorder consume vs. But I doubt not but her Maiestie and all those that beare office vnder her will take speedie order that it is not alreadie taken many do wonder some doe complayne but the clemencie of her Maiesties times and her benigne nature doth afford vs answere she will not haue any complaine that in this case any are punished but such as are obstinate heynous and notorious disturbers of the state because they were not at the first knowen for such shee would not haue them punished for such besides this the height of the stile and the loude bragges they made of their discipline made many beleeue they did it eyther of simplicitie or zeale or error few suspected the greedines of some and malice and ambition of others their notorious hypocrisie could not of long time be discouered but now their leudnes is apparent and their false visage is dismasked let them therefore beware that they abuse not the clemencie of the times or hope for continuance of vndeserued fauour The vanitie of their bragges and weakenesse of their cause is euident to all that are not eyther wilfully blinded or naturally ignorant All the demonstrations of their discipline are discifred and stand confuted they doe not so much as goe about to defend them their whole plots of false discipline lye razed they cannot say a word for them in this late petition wherein they had occasion to shewe their skill they haue not so much as answered one argument brought by vs against them The defence of Bezamade for his Aldermen most weake and simple as in a desperate cause they haue intreated Beza to say somewhat wherein we may see that their forces are spent to the last man yea so spent that they haue no hope of recouerie for what saith he good man hee telleth vs a long tale of his Geneuian deuises hut neyther doth hee answere our arguments nor bringeth scripture fathers or reason for his cause vnlesse wee beleeue him on his bare word the controuersie is at an end call you this answering this is rather the playne ouerthrowe of his cause for while hee went about to answere he hath confirmed our cause saying nothing either for himselfe or against vs but what he in his olde age dreameth where was T.C. that valiant champion of discipline all this while where was W. Tr. W. Ch. D. Sp. could not one of them speake for their cause but they must send to Geneua for a speaker it is too great and notable a confession of the weakenesse of their cause As for him or that I mistake not them that made the petition lately printed and pretended to be presented to her Maiestie on the behalfe of the Puritans they doe not deserue the name of speakers vnlesse it be among Puritans where euery one that can prate is sayde to speake For what say they for their cause their onely reason is because Caluin Beza Daneus Carpentier Golart Perot Tauergues Pollan Sneccan and a number of other authors of whose names and gestes we should neuer haue heard if these mē had not in this cause brought their names to light doe speake somewhat for their consistorie that therefore we are to like of it A goodly reason yet such a one as I thinke they will not admitte against their discipline For albeit Master R. M.B.M.G. M.A. M.H. M.D. M.W. and infinite other learned and good preachers among vs yea such as one of them is to be vaed against many of these ignorant and presumptuous disciplinarians do like of the present gouernment yet are they not therwith satisfied nay albeit all the ancient Fathers and acts of Counsels do like of the auctoritie gouernment of Bishops yet are these fellowes stil contending against it That the same was established by most learned and godly men that in Q. Maries time gaue their liues for the testimonie of the trueth they litle weigh nay they neither care for them nor their authoritie With what face then can they alledge Golart Pollan Sneccan and a number of birdes of like feather and men neither wise nor learned nor that haue ground of antiquitie or reason seeing they renounce not onely the authoritie of our men more learned then they but of our Martyrs more holy men then they yea and all the writings of the Fathers and actes of Counsels speaking of the authoritie and state of Bishops and such a gouernment as we haue In times past they were wont to tell vs of certaine lawes established by God himselfe and made vante that they would proue their discipline out of Gods word Why then are they now mute why are not these lawes and this worde brought forth why are they silent in bringing forth these mightie reasons when all is come to all must we rest on Golart Pollan Tauergues and Sneccans three or foure odde compagnions idle conceits there can nothing be deuised more absurd nor sencelesse Therefore hauing nothing to say in defence of their cause now in a desperate rage they begin to reuell not onely at Bishops but also at Lawes and Iudges and the ordinarie tryals of this Realme The drift of the petition is to shew that Iohn Vdall was wrongfully condemned they insinuate therein that the Iudges were either corrupted or blinded and that the euidence was wrested They say in plaine tearmes that Iudges haue no skill to deale with such fellowes as Iohn Vdall another kinde of man percase then he is taken to be Is hee trowe you any of Hackets or Coppingers consortes to bring Bishops into hatred they haue after their petition collected diuers Articles and by them and by certaine calumnious interrogatories haue gone about to bring them in disgrace with the multitude that if they cannot haue their desire of their celestiall consistorie they may be yet reuenged of such as they take to be the hinderers of their purposes Whose malice to encounter as before I haue answered their cauils against the ecclesiasticall gouernment of our Church to the vtter disgrace of the Consistorie so now hauing other occasions to print a discourse against Bellarmine and forreine aduersaries of our Church I haue thought good to
is against all lawe all practise yea against all reason Therefore euen the malcontent disciplinarians that take away the name giue notwithstanding the authoritie of Bishops to their rulers of Synodes in whome if the same were as they say vnlawfull no reason it should bee continued any little time And further vpon the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 denying superioritie to Bishops ouer ministers they doe notwithstanding giue an vnbrideled and absolute authoritie to the Consistories These arguments and others which I haue set downe stand vnanswered that which is sayd against bishops may be most easily and hath often bene answered neither doth this vnlettered fellow bring either new arguments or confirme the olde nay he leaueth all arguments which his fellowes haue brought out of scriptures therein shewing good iudgement for in deede it is absurd to thinke that bishops may be ouerthrowen by scriptures vpon which their authoritie is built I wonder with what face after so many proofes brought in this cause hee durst goe about without arguments to ouerthrowe that which hath such grounde vpon scriptures lawes reasons onely for a shewe he hath brought a number of names of * Pag. 10. 11. counsels fathers Churches and late writers but when the matter shall come to triall it shall be found that they doe all forsake him in this cause and that both they and infinite more then these speake against him I answere therefore first generally that it is no good argument that in this cause is drawen from Daneau Tauergues Perot Chauneton Carpentier or other of their faction Secondly that these counsels and fathers and Churches and learned men which he quoteth haue not oppugned Bishops or their gouernement The canons of the Apostles are placed in forefront of this aray against Bishops Can. 6. c. 80. not that they speake against thē but for that it pleaseth the petitioner to make some shewe in the entrance of his matter of apostolicall authoritie in the sixt Canon there is no mention made of Episcopall iurisdiction so that it may appeare that he looked not on the place It may be he meant the seuenth Canon for there both Bishops Priestes and Deacons are forbidden to meddle with worldly affaires and in the 80 Canon Bishops Priestes are charged not to intrude themselues into publike charges But neither place maketh one word against the superioritie of Bishops ouer Ministers nor their authoritie in ordination excommunication and other Ecclesiastical matters for which they are alledged nay contrariwise they giue ordination 1 Can. 2. 36 of Ministers to Bishops and plainely distinguish 2 c. 1. 2. 40. Bishops and priestes giuing to Bishops both superioritie ouer priests and also the 3 c. 40. 41. disposing of the affaires of the Church that Bishops in the primitiue Church were excluded from ciuil charges the reason was for that the Emperors were yet heathen and therefore without danger of impietie none could deale in office vnder them and in those times the offices about collection of the Emperors rentes were 4 ff de decurionib burdensome and dishonorable and therefore no maruaile if Bishops might not beare them last of all they were subiect to accomptes yet howsoeuer it was the Canons forbid not Bishops to susteine a charge imposed vpon them but ambitiously to seeke such charges generally seculer matters were not forbidden Bishops as may appeare in the same Canons 5 c. 41. so that neither doe these places make against our bishops vnder Christian princes in common wealthes wherein they are subiectes as wel as others and by their authoritie helpe their calling yea and the whole ministerie vnder them and no way hurt it neither doe they fit the petitionners purpose For Bishops by their episcopall office doe claime no ciuil authoritie nor doeth it folowe because Bishops may not beare certeine ciuil offices that therefore they are not to exercise episcopall authoritie as the petitionner doeth insinuate Next to the Apostles Canons as they are called hee citeth the 6 counsell of Carthage 19. c. but there do not appeare any Canons to haue beene made in that counsell so wide is the man from his marke commonly his fellowes vse to alledge the 4 counsell and 18 and 19 Canon yet doe not these canons fit their turne for nothing is there spoken against the office of Bishops either in ordination or contentious iurisdiction onely Bishoppes are forbidden to take on them the execution of testaments which notwithstanding hath 1 Concil Chalced. c. 3. exceptions and to bee common quarrellers in lawe which no man thinketh conuenient neyther canon maketh any thing to the purpose were not this man without discretion he would neuer alledge this counsell against Bishops that so 2 c. 3.27 31.55.68 diuersly confirmeth the authoritie of them and condemneth such 3 c. 57 67. libellers and raylors as the authors of this petition Neyther doth the counsell of Chalcedon decree any thing against the state of Bishoppes the Canons alledged onely forbid them as the puritane Ministers whereof some are grasiers some fermers some malsters doe vse to doe to hire grounds which payd rent and tribute to the Emperor or to deale in ciuil affaires or warfare least therby they should neglect their ministerie a pregnant place against diuers of these counterfeit hypocrites that shaking of their Ministerie and disdeining the base accompt of it trade in vsurie marchandise fermes and other such like occupations giuing ouer themselues to serue mammon This counsel maketh nothing for the cause of Puritans for it establisheth the authoritie of Bishops and Archbishops and condemneth such malitious and factious persons as they are that by 1 c. 17. calumnious accusations conspire the hurt or disgrace of their bishops The Petitioner doth also alledge the 6 counsell of Constantinople yet doe we not in the bookes of counsels finde any of that number nor in any counsell holden at Constantinople any thing against the authoritie or dignitie of bishops it may be he mistooke the 6 counsell of Constantinople for the 6 synode yet doeth not that speake against bishops but rather enacteth diuers 2 Synod 6. ca. 9. 10. cannons against vsurie a practise which Th. Cartw. and W. Ch. and others might doe well not to vse and for the dignitie of bishops many 3 Synod 6. c. 31. 36. 37. places To let vs further vnderstand his ignorance hee quoteth the 3 counsell of Turon whereas there were neuer but two there in neither of them any word sounding against the authoritie of bishops perhaps he meant by names of coūsels to face downe simple men or thinketh it no sinne for the glory of the consistorie to lye I beseech him to shewe vs where this 3 counsel of Turon may be found and then he shall haue further answere Beside the new third counsel of Turon he hath deuised a new counsell also of Macra which course if he hold on I
perceiue we shall haue a new booke of counsels to frame a new consistory withall to put the blame from himselfe he putteth it on Illyricus as true a quoter of textes almost as euer was Th. Cartwr his scholler but suppose that which 1 Catal. test veritat pag. 121. Illyricus hath of this counsell were true yet can not the wordes of the counsell be interpreted against bishops for suppose that a bishop may not be a King or Prince and that the callings be distinct yet may hee haue episcopall iurisdiction against which that counsell is alledged To helpe his aray of counsels hee bringeth in a supply of Fathers but very vnlike it is that they should speake against counsels being diuers of them chiefe doers in diuers counsels and therefore let him take heede least while hee mustereth the names of Fathers against bishops the men themselues doe not all fight against him That Cyprian is contrary to his allegation it is notorious for he establisheth the dignitie of bishops and vtterly ruinateth the cause of the new come gentlemen called Church-aldermen Hee subiecteth the whole 2 Lib. 1. ep 3. brotherhoode to the bishop and sayth that the same obedience is according to the commaundements of God The same authoritie is confirmed by the letters of the clergie of Rome to Cyprian Post Fabiani 3 Lib. 2. ep 7. excessum say they non est constitutus à nobis episcopus qui omnia ista moderetur He giueth to bishops the 4 Lib. 3. ep 9. succession of the Apostles and from no 5 Lib. 4. ep 9. lib. 1. ep 3. other roote doeth hee suppose heresies and schismes to spring then from contempt of the authoritie of Bishoppes So shamelesse is this Libeller to alledge Cyprian against bishops that in the places aboue named yea and in the 6 Lib. 3. ep 10. places by him quoted doth confirme their authoritie For albeit Cyprian doeth say that from his first entrance into his charge hee had determined to doe nothing but by the consent of the people and counsell of his Clergie yet doeth it not make against his superioritie nay it confirmeth it rather For with vs Bishops may doe nothing without lawe which is a most certaine consent nay good Princes rule by counsell and Lawes and yet they will not denie but that Princes in all places and Bishops with vs haue a superiour aucthoritie ouer those that are committed to them And Cyprian in that selfe same Epistle writing to the priestes and Deacons vseth these woordes I 1 Hortor mando exhorte and commaund yea further hee prescribed what was to bee done both concerning the poore and confessors and 2 Vice mea fungamini circagerenda quae religiosa administratio deposcit made a deputation to others that were to gouerne in his absence as much or rather more then bishops may with vs take vpon them to doe Likewise in the 14 Epistle of his thirde booke alledged also against bishops there are found manifest argumentes for their authoritie For hee reprehendeth the presumption of certaine Ministers too rash in reconciling those that had fallen and declareth vnto them that the Bishop is 3 Ep. 14. episcopus ipsis praepositus set ouer them and that their place is vnder the bishop of which 4 Loci sui immemores they were vnmindfull that the bishops duetie was to 5 Vt instructi à praepositis faciant omnia instruct them and their dutie to obey him It is euident that this author was not much acquainted with Cyprian that alledgeth him thus cōtrary to his meaning which is most childish and absurd quoteth the 27 epistle of Cyprians 3 booke where there are onely 15 epistles there In 6 Lib. 1. ep 9. another place Cyprian reprehendeth a certaine minister being apointed gardein to orphans executor of a testament but how the same may be drawen to make against the estate of bishops I vnderstand not for bishops among vs desire no such matter as that which Cyprian cōdemneth neither came it euer in Cyprians meaning to condemne the authoritie of Bishops as it is vsed in this Realme If hee speake against any it is especially against T. C. for albeit he be a Minister as he sayth himselfe yet refused he not the execution of his brother Stubbes his will no nor refuseth the gouernment of his Hospitall and therefore this fellowe seemeth vnwise thus deepely to lanch his deare brother T.C. whose purchases and purloynings hee hath taken on him to defend where in the meane while the state of Bishops for any thing Cyprian sayth standeth inviolable nay in the same place their iurisdiction is confirmed for Cyprian being a Bishop taketh on him to reforme Ministers and giueth bishops 1 Episcopi antecessores nostri censuerunt c. sacerdotum decretum authoritie to make ecclesiasticall lawes which pearceth the Church-aldermen that long for superioritie to the very heart Finally he taketh on him to punish disorders then which authoritie what can be greater 2 Dist 10. c. quoniā idem Gratian also extolleth Bishops aboue Princes so farre is hee from speaking against Bishoppes or their authoritie so that to alledge Gratian for proofe is as much as to vse corrosiues for pleasant medicines Neither doth it take away or diminish the authoritie and state of Bishoppes that by the Canons they may not encroche vpon the Princes authoritie in Ciuill causes for wee say that the vocation of Magistracie and ministerie is distinct and that Bishoppes in England doe not in respect they are ministers meddle with Ciuil causes but as they are subiects and are commanded Wherein they doe not shewe themselues busie in encrochments in taking on them charges imposed but shoulde shewe themselues disloyall persons at least no good subiects if they shoulde refuse them the consistoriall faction contrariwise doeth encroche both vpon Ecclesiasticall and Ciuill gouernours hauing authoritie from neither and intrude themselues where no man sendeth for them or admitteth them After Cyprian Tertullians 3 De ieiunio booke of fasting is by force drawen in by the imperious Consistorials for euidence against Bishops which I cannot but wonder at seeing they condemne both fasting in Lent other fasts which he alloweth and the degree state of bishops which he commendeth in his booke 1 Lib. de baptism of baptisme where hee giueth the chiefetie and praerogatiue of Priesthoode to Bishoppes expelling out the impudent Aldermen that nowe are crept in I knowe not by what strange concetie into Churchgouerment In the booke of fasting there is not so much as the office of bishoppes mentioned much lesse any speach against them there is order taken for their allowance which the sacrilegious consistorials that haue ruinated the Church in all places where they come doe denie them In the same place Tertullian doth construe the place 1. Timoth. 5.17 against these men for hee onely vnderstandeth by Elders that rule
haue good cause to speake Bernarde 4 De consid ad Eugen. lib. 2. speaketh against the Pope for clayming soueraintie in both swordes which no bishop in England claymeth neither doth any bishop by his episcopall authoritie exercise the materiall swordes as the Pope doeth and therefore as Bernards reasons are good against the Pope so are they not to be vsed against our bishops neither was it euer Bernards meaning to condemne the prerogatiue of bishops allowing the same in so many of his epistles and writings and commending so highly the bishop of Rome notwithstanding his infinite abuses he 5 Serm. 66. in Cantic non est mirum si ordinibus ecclesie deirahunt si mandatis non obediunt bitterly inueigheth against those heretickes which for their apish imitation of the Apostles called themselues Apostolickes because they condemned prelacy and therefore calleth them Stultissimos obstinatissimos Thus the man or at least his partakers haue sought euery corner of the Fathers and yet finde nothing against the prerogatiue of bishops therfore is hee glad to flye to the practise of late churches late writers but the conclusion which he draweth from them is most weake for admit that in Geneua in France Flaunders and other churches they haue not bishops of such quality in all respects as wee haue no more haue other churches such Elders as they of Geneua haue it is sufficient that we haue such bishops as in time past they had at Ierusalem Constantinople Alexandria Antioch Carthage Seuil throughout the world before that the cornercreeping Aldermē crept out of the slime of fond mens inuention that the bishops in reformed churches of Almayne haue episcopal authoritie ouer other ministers in ordination of ministers correction of maners so that they are to be blamed that digresse from all antiquitie yea and later churches not we that agree with al former times and the Almayns for both they the Danes albeit some of them mislike the names and most of them haue taken away the liuings of bishops yet reteine still their authoritie and office in their superintendents generall superintendēts and had done better if also they had reteined the liuings rewards of learning stipends of ministers wherefore let the libeller cease to obiect vnto vs the Heluetian and Dutch and Danish churches for they differ farther from the Geneuians then from vs and the petitioner himselfe 1 Pag. 10. confesseth that they haue authoritie though not so much Of late writers I know none of name that hath condemned our bishops euen the chiefe authors of this innouatiō Caluin and Beza as may appeare by their letters which are to be shewen speake euery where honourably of them Zanchus greatly extolleth that order onely Beza as some say hath written a foolish 2 Entituled The iudgement of a learned man beyond the sea pelting discourse wherein he would proue our bishops to proceed of men as if himselfe were a bishoppe of God and Daneau in that poynt consenteth with him taking himselfe also to be a bishoppe of God and yet the Geneuians when through weakenesse of body sicknesse and age hee coulde not execute the ministerie shut this bishop of God from his liuing and forced him through want to depart out of their Citie Bullinger and Gualter and diuerse learned men of Suitzerland and Germanie haue by letters and writings allowed our bishops yea 1 Histori confess August Melancthon Camerarius Sturmius wished to God they had such in their Countreys neyther did any of these that are named by the libeller euer speake against other then papisticall bishops let the worlde then iudge what honestie or shame was in this companion that alledgeth Luther Melancthon Bucer Caluin Beza Bullinger Zanchus Erastus Gualter and Mounster against our bishops whereof some neuer spake of them others neuer spake of them but with reuerence and none against them and 2 In diuers of his letters to be shewed Beza complaineth of some that drewe his wordes vttered against popish bishops against our bishops If therefore the libeller do not bring forth some other places then these hee hath quoted there is no cause but that euery man shoulde take him for a forger of false writings and an abuser of his reader But suppose Beza or Daneau or some other of that sort shoulde write their pleasures in priuate letters or in their imperious paltrie pamphlets who would not be ashamed to oppose these two or all their headie followers to Ignatius Dionysius Chrysostome Augustine Ambrose Hierome and all antiquitie yea to most writers of late times And if these men that patronise the consistorie which cannot stand with bishops for in deede there is no agreement in gouernement betwixt the rusticall fauni and the muses betweene learned men and men of occupation betweene clownes and schollers if these I say doe not speake against bishops wee may not thinke that bishop Iewell orbishop Elmar or bishop Bollingham or others that haue written in defence of the state haue vttered any thing that soundeth to their disgrace 1 In his Apologie Bishop Iewell expressely defendeth the degree of bishops aboue priestes and good reason for it is the publike doctrine of this Church and those that goe against it make this Church to reuoke a part of their publike confession and doe more harme by their secret trechery then euer did Harding by his open enmitie neyther can there be a greater scandale or dishonour offred to religion or the state then that we should now alter the publike confession of faith made by our Church Iewell saith that the office of prince and bishop is distinct and no man denieth it for no man by the office of bishop challengeth as doth the pope soueraigntie of both swords but if any conclude because bishops ciuil officers are distinct that a bishop shal doe no ciuil office he wil conclude that hee may not looke to his house nor do the office of a subiect nor fight for his country which is a nice point of puritanisme and little better then trechery and by the same reason should ministers be excluded both from gouernement of colledges and hospitals and al offices in the vniuersities whereto our puritanes ambitiously aspire are as great canuasers as any notwithstanding their ministerie or puritanisme Neither can master Nowels words be stretched against bishops for what if Christ would not receiue riches or dominion of the deuil may not a minister receiue a benefit of a Prince or because Christ forbade them to rule as Princes may they do no offices of good subiectes but liue like traitors or like puritanes that liue in open contēpt of lawes if then the petitioner had any conscience he would not alledge Mr. Nowel against bishops whose authority he mainteineth against Dorman and whose resolution for this present gouernement is sufficiently knowen Master Bilson distinguisheth betwixt apostolicall gouernement and princely gouernment but hee
taketh not thereby away apostolical superiority ouer ministers as these manglers of scriptures doe that to build vp one seate of the consistorie haue hewen diuerse scriptures in pieces and racked mens wordes against their meaning neyther in word nor conceit did he euer oppugne the present gouernment Bishop Elmar sometime before hee came abroad into the world supposed the liuings of bishops to bee too great hee knew not then the malice of men nor the state of things now he confesseth therein his ouersight is it not lawfull for him to amend his error especially seeing some men thinke it lawful from knowledge to fall into puritanisme and from a right course to run into error yet do we not vse the benefit of their doubling let them double as much as they wil so they double not with God The like is to be said of bishop Bollingham who if hee erred in speaking against bishops Rochets for against the state I see not where he speaketh yet did hee the same away by repentance but we stand not on mens opinions nor pamphlets nor priuate writings we would once the names of Caluin and Beza and others were laid aside and the cause were examined by scripture and antiquitie which is not partial this T. Cartw. did once professe but now he hath forgotten himselfe would he come backe againe to his old hint he should soone see his owne error if he striue against himselfe no maruell it is if hee striue with others but if he come abroad he must come better furnished with scriptures and reasons Not content to alledge some the libeller ere he passe will needes belye others and among them 1 in his defence of the princes supremacie Doctor Bridges it may bee the consistorie hath giuen him a dispensation to lye for he saith that Doctor Bridges doth iustifie Aerius opinion whereas contrariwise hee saith that albeit Hierome and others did hold that a bishop and priest was one yet was no Aerian whereby it appeareth that hee confesseth Aerius to bee an heretike and denieth others to be Aerians He shamefully likewise belyeth my lorde of Canterburie 2 Pag. 654. lin 54. whom he falsely quoteth maketh to confesse elders for such elders as these men would haue neuer entred into his cōceit only he confesseth that there were ministers in the beginning of the Church that liued in community with bishops which now that the number of Christians is so encreased were not requisite for then should there be infinite nonresidents that he neuer imagined there ought to be elders of the Geneuian making his reasons brought against them doe declare Neyther did the author of the admonition made against the drunken surfet of Martins puritanisme set downe any wordes that import that there was an Eldership vnder the lawe as the libeller affirmeth the wordes are contrary why then should hee imagine that the authors meaning was contrary to his wordes it was saith hee first so set downe admit it were must all compositers errors bee allowed for text I perceiue these fellowes are angrie when a man woulde correct a fault and therefore I feare hee will not amende his fault in lying but I haue heard saith hee that that booke was subscribed by the bishop of Canterburie Lincolne and London as if any thing were more common then vntrueth in the mouthes of puritanes and therefore no maruell if hee haue heard a leasing The author of the remonstrance without any supposall saith plainely Pag. 166. that there neuer were any Church consistorie and therefore what fondnesse is it to suppose him to say that which hee denieth but admitte hee shoulde say if it were in the lawe and Gospell that it were to bee continued yet doth it not followe that it was in the lawe or after for of supposals no direct assertion can bee made vnlesse that which is supposed bee graunted neyther can any man enforce any such conclusion as the libeller imagineth nay hee shall sooner presse the little wit hee hath out of his braynes then gayne such a conclusion for the assumption viz. that the Geneuian Aldermanshippe began vnder the lawe and was practised vnder thè Gospell is but a franticke conceyte in this discrasied mans brayne neyther my lorde of Canterburie sayth it nor any of our side that I knowe Why doeth not the man therefore proue it the reason is euident for that vntrueth cannot be proued let him therefore presse what he can out of the assertions aforesaid he shal sooner wring vergis out of a flint then wring his Consistorie out of scriptures But saith he one Mathew Sutcliffe controlleth both whereunto if he durst haue set to his name I might haue answered that one W. St. and his promptors are deceiued Now I must answere that one certaine worthlesse libeller mistaketh for neither is it true which he auoweth That I protest there was neuer any such gouernement by elders vnder the Gospel yea and such arguments haue I set downe that Th. Cartwr and all the faction haue taken terme to answere neither doe I controwle others that haue trauailed before me in the same argument for all of vs agree that there was neuer any Geneuian Eldership in the world before the erection of it at Geneua and that the Eldership that was in time past was composed of Bishops or of Priestes assistant to the Bishops which were Ministers of the word and sacraments and such as in part in our cathedrall Churches yet continue The third vntrueth is That he saith I suppose if there were Elders vnder the Gospel they were not now necessarie Pag. 213. which the author of the remonstrance affirmeth For I doe not speake of Elders but generally of gouernement conclude most strongly against the platformers That they may not haue their discipline and why forsooth because first it was neuer found in scriptures nor practise and secondly because diuers orders are founde in scripture for externall gouernement which now are out of vse so that both the antecedent being false and consequent nought it is not possible the conclusion should be good but what should I talke of antecedent and consequent with this companion that vnderstandeth neither Logicke nor termes of reason The fourth lye is that I deface forreine Churches writing against the Eldership in Latine make the rent of our Church deeper For I speake in the defence of the state to salue those wounds which these fellowes haue made to pece the rents of our church I neuer speake of forreine churches but honorably neither am I curious in other mens states neither doe I deale with Beza but as with a graue and learned man in this point mistaken destitute in this cause both of wisedomect learning although I haue bene badly requited at his hands againe which course if Beza others would haue taken these contentions that haue troubled our Church woulde neuer haue growen to this height but they would be writing talking against vs yea censuring
such authors argumēts as these fellowes as yet delay to answere As for Daneau and certaine pety compagnions defenders thereof their authority is of no weight speaking against such antiquitie and consent and reason The Libeller would also haue the ecclesiasticall state made odious for their misgouernment a very malitious and insufficient course for suppose that 3 or 4 should doe against lawe is it reason that law should be taken away or that many should suffer for a few mens faults how much more vnreasonable is it that the same should bee oppressed for supposed misgouernment That articles are ministred to parties conuented in law and subscription required to lawes is most consonant to lawes neither is any thing in the lawes of England or the statute 25. Henr. 8.19 there to the contrary The Libeller seemeth not to vnderstand himselfe nor others when hee talketh of bishops deuising articles and subscriptions and publishing them in their owne names for there can not be deuised a more absurde kinde of speach Subscriptions are required of others and not published and articles are obiected as priuate meanes to bolt out trueth not as lawes to be practised A course vsuall in all courts of chancery eschecker starrechamber but what reason had this fellowe to obiect to bishops that which they doe not when Th. Cartw. and his 2 At Warwicke Cambridge London c. the actes thereof are euidence sufficient fellowes contrary to the statutes and lawes of the Realme assembled in secrete manner made lawes and subscribed them and published them among themselues and yet are not punished for it They say that bishops appoynting speciall prayers vpon occasion of the inuasion of the Spaniards and other speciall causes doe contrary to that which they require in others but they mistake for those offend not that in euery point of the Communion booke obserue not strict order which the booke in some case aloweth but such malitious felowes as of malitiousnes refuse it and contemptuously oppugne it Neither is the vse of speciall prayers vpon occasion contrary to the vse of the booke of common prayer subscribed vnto with exclusion of all other orders of common prayers for both may stand together Neither did Byshops any thing in this behalfe without her Maiesties speciall commandement But these fellowes are of those that allow not her Maiesties godly orders nor any thing done by Gouernors nor any prayers but fond loose vaine and absurd babbling oraisons of Puritans and seeme to be sory that any should pray against the Spaniards They thinke also and the Libeller affirmeth that it is as lawfull for contentious persons to refuse the surples as for Byshops not to vse pastorall staues But it is most absurde so to say the vse of the surples being consirmed by law the vse of the pastorall staues not being required by lawe or custome But were pastorall staues enioyned by lawe is this a good reason because Bishops offend that euery lawlesse compagnion should passe without controlment That Cawdry was punished by order of lawe is apparant for that the statute doeth authorize the high Commissioners to proceede according to their Commission If any fault were therein cōmitted it was that he was vsed with so 1 His cause was almost two yeeres in handling his conformitie continually being exspected much lenitie Neuer was any more obstinate nor could any man haue more fauor especially without desert for neither had he learning nor other good qualitie nor was any more factious That felonies were examined before the high Commissioners Ec-Ecclesiasticall is a vaine cauill neither doeth it follow because vpon examinations of matters fellonious libels are found out that they proceede to the cognition and determining of felonies Neither do the Ecclesiastical Iudges contray to law either in citations or ministring othes in causes ex officio or punishing lewde factious perturbers of the state If this felow doe maintaine the contrary let him leaue his idle quotations and set downe the wordes of law enforce them by argument to his purpose Otherwise all men may see he goeth about rather to calumniate good men then to iustifie any accusation against his aduersaries If he prooue nothing let him be ashamed to cal his factious compagnions seekers of reformation their libels and friuolous pamphlets bookes of reformation and cease to impugne her Maiesties lawes sentence of Iudges against Iohn Vdall whose fact no man can defend but such as maintaine sedition faction nor praise but such as are enamored of senceles vnlearned hypocrites let him cease to charge the Bishops with seeking his life for they are not his parties nay next to her Maiestie he is to thanke some Bishops for his life for if they had bin as he saith nay if some had not entreated for him percase he had bin hanged all this controuersie taken vp and ended If he cease not percase the world will thinke that Vdall deserued rather more seueritie then is now shewed to him and that the libellers bolde demeanour may procure him to haue iustice for his foolish prating rather then fauour for any wittie reasoning Hitherto all the Libellers dispute is without sequele for admit some one or more shoulde teache falsely or doe against lawe yet is it no reason that euery base compagnion should with open mouth rayle against her Maiesties gouernement and Lawes and call them Antichristian and speake against the whole cleargie yea against Iudges and all that fauour the present gouernment Let those that haue taught falsely be refuted and those that haue done leudly bee punished That the state should be dissolued for the misgouernment of particulars no reason will admit That the platformers offer their liues to prooue their discipline which the libeller alledgeth to excuse thē is a sencelesse reason for no traytors nor felōs deale in any cause that they vndertake but they offer and venture their liues for it yea and Iacke Strawe Hacket offred their liues to prooue their reformation whereas these fellowes contrariwise are very loath to loose liues lands or goods for their discipline and loose nothing but with much grumbling and repining and come farre behinde the Iesuites and Papists in that poynt And so simple is their proofe that if they bee wise they will not venture any thing vpon it for the demonstrations of discipline stande confuted without replye and all their presbyteriall imaginations rest beaten without answere neyther is any argument in all T. C. his great confused Chaos of replyes left vntouched His multiplicitie of wordes wee leaue to factious Puritans that speake ordinarily without sence or matter to play withall To excuse his fellowes silence the Libeller pretendeth want of libertie Printers which cannot iustly be alledged for how can they want printers hauing Waldgraue in Scotland and others at Geneua Middleburg Leyden at commaundement beside their priuate presses Or how can they pretend want of liberty seeing none haue bene long imprisoned and many
came neuer in prison That which the libeller here inserteth againe of other churches whome hee would haue vs to conforme our selues vnto he would neuer haue mentioned if he had vnderstood the grounds of his owne discipline for them selues say that all 1 Discipline de l'esglise Francoise Churches be aequall and it is apparant that euery christian realme and Church is to be gouerned by her owne lawes but these bee the fellowes that would translate the Popedome to Geneua and haue vs fetch lawes from new Rome Seeing then that Iohn Vdall and his compagnions haue mainteined a lewde and fond gouernment neuer heard of in antiquitie and by wicked forgery and lyes haue gone about to disgrace the present state and the gouernours and haue rayled against her Maiestie and lawes and that the Libellers defence is most friuolous it can not bee denyed that they haue written maliciously to diffame her Maiestie And good is were they had stayed in writing but they would not be ruled for T. Cartw. Ioh. Vdall and others were acquainted but too well with Hackets conspiracy His third exception against Iohn Vdals condemnation is for that he wrote not against her Maiesties person But the same is very friuolous for the Maiestie of a prince consisteth in his power lawes gouernement and not in his particuler person or priuate qualities or behauiour Neither are the papists punished for speaking against her person but speaking against her supremacie and lawes Therefore seeing hee confesseth he wrote against her lawes and gouernement hee must also confesse that hee offended against the statute that made it felonie to write malitious diffamatory matters against her Maiesty The preamble declareth as much for that the same pretēdeth that certain persons euil affected to her Maiesty should be suppressed In which number these that would disanul her gouernment and would bring her in subiection to Hackets prophets or the prophetical consistory are especially to be reckoned it was the special meaning of the parliament that the malepartnesse both of papists puritans should be repressed as some there present in parliament do witnesse Neither is it material that penal lawes are of strict interpretation for expound it as strict as you wil. it cannot bee but those that diffame her Maiesty any way either in person or gouernment must fal within the compasse of the statute That which is brought of the statute of 13. Eliz. c. 1. and 1. 2. of Mary 3. is idle talke and concludeth nothing neither is it true that those that account her Maiesties religion lawes heretical and schismatical are without the compasse of the statute that maketh it treason to call her Maiesty schismatike heretike fond likewise it is that he talketh of stealing of horses and contrary to his purpose Seeing hee mainteineth a cōpany of asses that would encroch vpon her Maiesties gouernment steale away thé hearts of her people But saith he her Maiestie is a body politike in fiction which is vntrue for shee is in trueth a politike bodie That is hath a resemblance of a body truly But were she not a politike body at all should it be lawfull to diffame her lawes and gouernement This exception therefore is beside the lawe for be she body politike or no if her Maiestie be diffamed then is an offence committed against that statute Againe he obiecteth that if it be a diffamation of her Maiestie to speake against her ecclesiasticall lawes they should also diffame her Maiesty that speake against the eldership which is an argument like to the resolutions of the eldership that is senceles foppish for admit her Maiesty tollerate the french Church yet doth she not confirme their french lawes no more then they of Geneua confirmed the orders of the English Church at Geneua nor do other confirme cōtrary religions which for some occasions they tollerate so that to speake against the absurd gouernement of that 1 In king Edwards dayes the Churches of strangers were subiect to their superintendents in this Queenes time to the bishops of Canterbury and London against whom while vnkindly they spurne they shewe themselues vngratefull not only vnmindfull of her Maiesties benefits company that contrary to law and couenant haue exempted themselues from the bishops gouernment and erected synodes is to speake in defence of her Maiesties lawes and not against them whereas these fellowes offend in direct oppugning all her Maiesties ecclesiasticall gouernment Sixtly he inferreth because it is not treason to kill bishops or other subiects nor felonie to write or to speake against bishops gouernment that therefore her Maiestie is not diffamed when they are diffamed A reason rather to kill the libellers cause when al men see his malice and ignorance then to hurt others for no man saith her Maiestie is diffamed because libels are writtē against bishops or others but because the same libels doe touch her maiesties gouernment lawes and that not in one or two points but in the very whole body gouernement ecclesiastical of her maiestie and that in most disordered maner and that the authors therof are therefore punished for perturbing the state not for their fond opinions of discipline Neither doth the libellers friuolous talke of politike mēbers or of diffaming the Dukes of Saxony or high Almaine pertaine to this purpose The seditious bookes of the disciplinarian faction haue bene intended against her maiestie nor the Dukes of Saxony or kings of Denmarke albeit they touch them in some sort that maintaine the superiotity of bishops also He saith also that the intention of the parliament was not to protect bishops as if they meant not to maintain the lawes state But admit it be true yet it maketh neither hoat nor colde to this purpose for these seditious fellowes are not condēned for speaking against bishops but for that arguing against them and the ecclesiastical state they proceede in such violent sort that they neither spare her maiesties honor nor her gouernment in ecclesiastical causes that the meaning of the parliament was to represse the malice of puritanes is most certaine for it was expresly mentioned at the time of making the act by diuers of the house and therefore iustly are they to be punished by that statute Further he taketh exception to certain canōs in vse as he supposeth as that womē may not sue their husbands for adultery c. that spiritual kinred hindreth mariage others concerning excōmunication fasting therefore concludeth that if it be lawful for some to find faults with thē yet do not diffame her maiestie that I. Vd. diffamed not her maiestie but both his reason is naught his iudgemēt in law simple for albeit men are not accoūted diffamers of her maiesty that reprehēd some law with modestie yet can no man cal her maiesties gouernmēt antichristian nor raile against her lawes gouernment as idolatrous superstitious without diffamation of her maiestie Nor is the sufferance of
wee must tell him that where hee talketh of fiue hundred traytors that maintaine the present ecclesiasticall gouernement hee is out of reason and account and doeth nothing but rayle as well beseemeth his libelling humour The state and iurisdiction of bishops nowe in England dependeth externally on the Prince to him they are subiect and from him they receiue lawe finally they thinke it vnlawfull to rebell against him condemning all rebellious practises to pull downe his authoritie and to bring them vnder but the proud and insolent Consistory claymeth power aboue princes and rendreth in Ecclesiasticall matters account to none but God as they professe the same acknowledgeth it felse subiect to none and prescribeth lawes to Princes yea teacheth and putteth in practise rebellion against them and therefore when there is speach of loyaltie and obedience let the Libeller henceforth take heede how he compareth the most factious and suspicious gouernment to Princes that euer was to our ecclesiasticall gouernours which in their doctrine and life cannot bee noted of any disloyaltie And finally let him holde his peace and thanke God for the princes clemencie For it is not the innocencie of his Clients nor the eloquence of the aduocate that can cleare the disciplinarians from faction In such bad causes repentance and submission is best defence the next is silence And therefore wisely did he passe ouer that offence for which Iohn Vdall was conuicted and condemned Onely this fault hee committeth herein that forgetting howe before hee had promised to answere for him now hee leaueth him to answere for himselfe and like a man that had lost both memorie and wit runneth out into an idle discourse of othes Ex Officio and an inuectiue against Iudges and furiously rayling at the State calleth such as speake in defence of it Traitors and Rebels To terrifie the Iudges hee cyteth certaine Textes of scriptures ill fitting his purpose For neither as hee sayeth are his consortes Saintes nor doe they suffer for holinesse nor are they put to death howsoeuer they deserue it That sentence of 1 Iames 1. Iames rather belongeth to them If any man deemeth himselfe to be religious and refaineth not his tongue but seduceth his hart his religion is in vayne or that rather Woe bee to 2 Matth. 23. you Scribes and Pharises ye hypocrites yee are like to whited sepulchres faire without and within full of bones of dead men and all filthinesse And albeit Iohn Vdall had the name vnwothy to be a Preacher yet neuer any worse deserued it being euery way vnsufficient nor tooke a more factious course This fellowe braggeth hee was no murtherer yet if hee had proceeded further I knowe what woulde haue followed So arrogant hee is that hee imagineth all fooles but such as like his fancies But if the 3 Pag. 49. Iudges haue so little skill in condemning such a Minister as Iohn Vdall why doth not this great Clarke shewe it this is impudencie to condemne such reuerend learned men of ignorance and to shewe no reason Besides this in lawe there ought to be no respect of persons Howe then can there bee such difference betwixt ministers and others if ministers offend as well as others Either this man meaneth to challenge immunitie or els hee meaneth if euer he bee a Iudge to respect persons Some haue painted Iustice blinde but this man woulde haue them iudge with spectacles His accusation against such as speake in defence of the state will neuer be prooued he racketh and teareth their sayings as a man lying without conscience and shame yet will they not reach to his purpose Concerning master Dalton whom he accuseth as the Bishops factor it is an easie matter to answere hee hath more honestie learning and lawe then is to be found in all the Puritanes distempered braynes The cause he defended was not the Bishops but of religion learning and the Church Hee chargeth the Bishops that they write in a certaine 1 Admon a g. M. M. p. 252. booke that it is not lawfull to bestowe such liuings vpon laye men as are appoynted by lawe to preachers of the word But neither doe the Bishops say it nor is that booke that is quoted the Bishops nor is it likely that so graue men had so litle to doe as to busie themselues with the answering of such a vaine Libell as Martin and Martins barking sonnes But whose-soeuer the saying is it is iustifiable for if the liuings bee appoynted by lawe to preachers what law is it to infringe law that the Queene doeth keepe the temporalties of Bishops in her hands during the vacation is by law not against law So likewise it is lawfull to holde some Ecclesiasticall liuings that be appropried As for Wiclefs words against the excesse of his times they are euill extended against the want of ours and are voyde of reason for what reason is it that for the default of one a succession should be spoyled as he would haue it But sayth hee who woulde not thinke the superfluities of Bishops liuing better bestowed vpon such a man as Sir Francis Walsingham that right honourable Chancellour and benefactor of the Church and Countrey then vpon any Bishop Wherein hee doeth wrong to the memory of that good knight and in needelesse discourse bringeth his name in question To his supposall I answere that there be very wise men that thinke the liuings of Bishops better as they are and I thinke hee would so say if hee were aliue and were asked the question for no man was more desirous then hee of true honor neyther is any thing more dishonourable then to rise by the spoyles of the Church that hee pretendeth to loue nor to take that to him selfe which was giuen to other vses Neyther doe wee reade of any that hath risen by the spoyles of the Church that hath long prospered or enioyed them nor haue the Papistes any thing to obiect against vs more then sacriledge and spoyle of the Church As for the superfluities of bishops there is order taken Take foure of the best bishops in England and there will bee found eight knights euery one whereof shall farre ouermatch them in reuenues Take eight bishops next in liuing to the greatest and there will bee found two hundreth esquires euery of which shall ouerpasse them diuers yeomen clownes and marchantes doe farre excell the rest Why then should any enuie to men of learning and qualitie the estate and liuing of knights esquires yeomen and clownes It will bee sayde these haue it by inheritance but why should it not as well be lawfull to haue it and winne it by industrie as by inheritance But I am glad I know why all this while the petitioner barketh so loude Hee woulde haue great men fall to spoyling that hee might light vpon some reuersion or like a dogge gather vp crummes vnder the table when men shall ryot with Churches rapines well for his good will when churches come to be spoyled let him out
of the belfray take a rope for his paynes Hee belyeth Doctor Bridges shamefully for hee maketh him to say that a Priest may haue a moderate lordly iurisdiction ouer all the Lordes allotment where in trueth hee doeth not so much as mention Lordly iurisdiction but superioritie and that ouer the Cleargie in seuerall Congregations and not in the whole Church Therefore let him make proofe how this superioritie or maintayning of Churchliuings in their proper state can bee drawen to prooue that such as defende the state diffame the Queene or seeeke to mooue insurrection If not let him remember that both hee forgeth and runneth from his purpose like a babbling discourser wandring in a sea of wordes without compasse of style or discretion Likewise hee fableth that Doctor Bancroft writeth that her Maiestie is a petie Pope which is a gracelesse or shamelesse assertion or both for who woulde not bee ashamed but these swelling mindes that thinke they may speake what they list to ascribe that to Master Bancroft that hee reprehendeth in Martin His wordes are playne his minor 1 Pag. 68. saith he meaning Martin viz. that her Maiestie is a pety Pope may thus bee prooued If the Libeller holde on this course of lying hee will prooue many strange and wonderous matters especially among the Disciplinarians whose consistories is built on lyes But if they diffame her Maiestie that holde her to be a pety Pope as the Libeller by many great wordes and vnnecessary proofes in a matter confessed auoweth then is Martin and his partakers felonious diffamers of her Maiestie for hee holdeth that whosoeuer taketh on him the authoritie in causes ecclesiasticall which the Pope had is a petie Pope as before is sayde But that authority the whole parliament giueth to her Maiestie May it therefore please the Libeller to barke against the Parliament or els against Martin Against Master Bancroft that neyther thought it nor wrote it nor spake it but reprehendeth it in the person of Martin there is no cause for him to declayme all this Libelling notwithstanding the petitioner calleth his consortes our brethren but if his brotherhood consist in such scurrilous rayling let him seeke other brethren The brotherhood and felloship of Christians is knowen by loue The badge of puritanisme is vnnaturall and vnkinde and vnbrotherly dealing And therefore I doubt whether they be brethren or no both considering their hereticall opinions and also their vncharitable and vnchristian rayling And yet I say notwitstanding all this vnnaturall dealing that the bishops so much as they might yea too too much haue dealt remissely against such contumatious and worthlesse disturbers of the Church And that not for any thing which appeareth in this accusers wtitings wherein they see nothing but velliacry and presumption and vanitie but in respect of their owne milde natures Christian affection and desire of peace which these fellowes scorned In the ende hee concludeth that considering the doubtfulnesse of these controuersies hee trusteth her Maiestie will take some good order for the peaceable debating of them hauing I say reuelde at full both against ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction and that before so mightie a prince whose presence he ought more to haue reuerenced hauing also at such time as hee was to speake to her Maiestie talked against all decorum with by standers yea with those that were absent nowe as it were before his death he commeth home to himselfe and prayeth her Maiestie to take some good course for the peaceable ordering of these controuersies as if all her former lawes all her care all her proceedings were not to bee valued in one haire And as if rayling and accusing deserued fauour or his dispute credite or his insolencie pardon I doubt not buther Maiestie of her wisedome seeth the impudencie of the man the weakenesse of the cause the wrong done to others but especially to her selfe her gouernement and her lawes-that others may see it I haue lightly framed this answere lest the foole should enter into conceipt of his wit and others be abused by his malice not in many words for what should I stand about that wherin is nothing but pride ignorance and choller Now because by alledging their opinions he would make the world beleeue that his clients are slandered I wil shew that he 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 smootheth some things that are hard and concealeth many things that are worse and therefore that he and his clients are to be taken as they are The words I haue set downe and by them my answere reade with iudgement iudge with equity shewe equity to trueth Obseruations vpon certaine opinions commonly holden by the puritanes and collected by the said author of the petition with answeres to their petitions and desires ioyned with the foresaid opinions The words of the petitioner TO the end it may appeare how vniustly the seekers of reformation are slandered by the bishops Petitioner and others I haue thought good briefly truly to deliuer the opinions of such as sue for reformation which I haue gathered out of their bookes and seene in their practise and heard in conference which I had with them Neither hath the man deliuered his consorts opinions truly Answere nor was it sufficient if hee had meant to cleare them from slander to deliuer some part of their opinions vnlesse he had also deliuered their whole doctrine concerning their consistoriall discipline for what excuse may it bee for an here-tike to beleeue well in some poyntes or for leude men to doe something well But this generall doctrine of theirs neyther doth he nor durst hee deliuer it was somewhat too hoat and sawcie The soueraigntie of the aldermen in making lawes iudging and excommunicating princes dissoluing the lawes of the land taking away her Maiesties prerogatiue in pardoning offences and depriuing her of the argument she hath to shewe her clemencie in in diminishing her reuenues hee concealeth Neither doth hee reueale vnto vs those mysticall rules whereby the consistoriall faction doth ouerthrowe the parliament the apologie and fayth of this Church the Vniuersities and many priuate mens interest Likewise hath he passed ouer in goodly glosing wordes and not once mentioned other dangerous poynts That therefore which hee wanteth to the intent that wee may haue a perfect draught of the alestond of this newe brewed discipline I purpose to set down and to declare vnto you both their doctrine and their practise So that you may perceiue that they are vainely tearmed seekers and sewers for reformation And that the cause wee defende is not the cause of bishops whom we leaue to defend their doings themselues but the cause of God of religion of our countrey of the prince of learning of the whole ministerie against factious mates and heretical schismatikes and enemies of the ministery learning that in these dangerous times go about to make an vproare in their countrey and a spoyle of the rewards of learning If then that which is best in
ouerthrowe of the ministery as too late now the ministers thēselues there begin to feele why should it I say be more lawful there then with vs Article 8 If the bishops publish any Canons or orders to be practised without the royall assent of her Maeistie they should bee fined and imprisoned 25. H. 8. c. 19 yet notwithstanding this statute they publish subscriptions in their prouinces and articles in their Diocesses without any assent of her Highnesse Answere The end of this article is to haue the bishops imprisoned and fined according to the rules of puritane charitie But the meanes and proofes whereby the articulators endeuour to effect it are all too weake For they can neither prooue that they haue published Canons constitutions and prouinciall ordinances without the princes assent nor that they haue done any thing therein against lawe nay albeit in their subscriptions they require nothing but obedience to lawe yet did they not require them without speciall warrant But saith the accuser they publish new subscriptions articles Goodly stuffe As if either subscriptions or articles were canons or constitutions or ordinances or els such as minister priuate articles about matters in ciuill courts could be said to make new lawes It appeareth the man is but a nouice in law that knewe not what is law That he erre not let him vnderstand that the ordinances of discipline made by T.C. and his fellowes were made contrary to this statute And therefore if they desire Iustice to be done let the lawe be executed vpon offenders and let innocents be no more wronged Article 9 Ecclesiasticall officers extort from schoolemasters sometime 7. s. sometime more and make them subscribe both contrary to lawe Answere If they take 7. s. for a licence it is not much I know a petifogger yea a Scriuano that for writing a licence hath taken 7. li. let them therefore both bee punished together according to the seueral qualities of their offence and let all takers and extortioners answere for their extortions I defend them not I excuse them not I fauour them not As for subscriptiō of schoolemasters how can it be misliked seeing it is only for confirmation of law exacted of them least they should instill discontētment schismatical heretical opinions into their schollers minds Done at Geneua Ordon de l'esehole de Geneua as but too many factious and puritane schoolemasters haue done to the great preiudice of this Church and state the more haue they to answere for that haue suffered them and more care ought men to haue that such nurseries of rebellion bee not suffered But what reason hath this pettifogger or the scriuano his suggestor to condemne subscriptions seeing both of them win more by scribling and subscribing then any ecclesiasticall person I know in England Article 10 By the great charter none may bee imprisoned but by the lawfull iudgement of his Peeres or by the law of the land Answere By the lawes of the great charter the priuiledges of the church state ecclesiastical are with most pregnant termes confirmed and yet this faction without regarde either of charters or lawes or honor of the prince that is sworne to maintaine them or of the reputation of the realme that standeth most in maintenance of Gods church religion goeth about to ouerthrow both the ecclesiasticall state and all the customes rights priuiledges of the church if then he think it not lawful to infringe the lawes of Magna Charta what presumption is this that he his companions directly oppugne them on the contrary side he cannot charge any iustly with the breach of lawes let him if he can name any that hath imprisoned any contrary to the lawes of Magnacharta if he cannot why doth he speake of imprisonment to no purpose If he affirme any such matter of bishops he doth them wrong For they imprison none by authority Episcopal If he speake against the high Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical he is to vnderstand that diuers of them being of the most honorable persons and Iudges in the land they will not doe any thing against law Nor doe they commit any but contumacious offenders whom no lawe may spare That they punish men for not swearing vainely is a vaine lye To say that an othe offered by a magistrate is vaine is both disloyaltie and Anabaptistrie But all this rigour is clemencie in respect of the consistoriall proceedings For there men are censured by opinion and ministers disgraced vpon suspicion and Caluine put a syndicke and diuers chiefe men of Geneua to their oathe to answere whether they had bene daunsing at widow Baltazars house and after that remooued diuers of them from their places he that liketh these orders must needes commend ours Article 11 By the common lawe a man shall not be examined vpon his othe in matters that sound to his reproch Crompton 182. Answere Cromptons worde is no measure of lawe The contrarie hereof is lawe by the opinion of the most learned Iudges in England It is the practise of the court of Chancerie in the court of the coūcel of the marches principalitie of Wales in the court of Starrechamber whereas the parties are examined vpon their othes vpon periuries forgeries and many other misdemeanors Suppose it be at the instance of parties which notwithstanding is not alwayes yet it appeareth that othes to discouer things reprochfull to a mans selfe bee lawfull and very common and most necessarie And a simple lawyer was he that vnderstood not so much Likewise in other courtes of recorde at Westminster the iudges by corporall othe examine any person whome they haue cause to suspect to haue dealt lewdly about any writte returne entrie of rule such like matters By the statute of inquisitiō 1 Stat. de Exon de Inquisit super Coronat vpon Coroners the enquirors shall make the Bailiffes sweare that they shall conceale nothing no though it be penall to them Masters of shippes are to bee put to answere on their othes vpon the statute of money 9. Edw. 3. c. 9. Whether they haue committed any fraude So likewise they that are charged vpon the statute 2 8. Edw. 4. c. 2. of liueries must answere the bill vpon their othe though the matter be penall The same is apparant by the statute of wines 24. H. 8. c. 2. of banckrupts 34. H. 8. c. 4. by the statute of supremacie by the statute of Fugitiues 13. Eliz. c. 3. In appeales at the Common lawe the defendant before battell is driuen to 3 Stanf. Pleas of the crowne lib. 3. c. 14. sweare A Iuror departing from his companie was examined on his othe whether he had talked with the defendant yet if he had confessed it the same had bene penall M. 34. Edw. 3. fol. 3. In an action of formedon couin being found by othe in the defendant hee was punished by the Iudges discretion T. 7. H. 4. fol. 19. The othe of supremacie may be giuen
sicke cannot bee prooued eyther by scriptures or fathers In Geneua the Deaconship is turned into a vaine office of Proctorship for the poore managed by men of base trades Why then doth he accuse others that is guilty himselfe Article 29 The Deacon must reade the Gospell in the day of his ordination putting on a tunicle but this vesture is scarcely knowen at this day Answere The booke of ordeyning of ministers printed Anno 1559. and confirmed by parliament hath no such matter And therfore vnlesse hee can shewe his author for his tunicle let him weare the tunicle together with his foure elbowed iacket himselfe But admit some piece of apparell were omitted in deacons yet is the fault not great nor to bee ascribed to any but to those that commit the same Article 30 The bishops at the ordination of ministers do tell them the weight of their charges and what labour they ought to take yet most of them are neuer resident Answere If they labour not as they shoulde doe let them bee punished If they bee absent for lawfull causes and at times why are they more blamed then the skittish puritanes that notwithstanding their charge are like malecontent and mutinous persons still wandring vp and downe to places where they haue nought to doe rather to trouble the state then to edifie the Church and rather hinder others labours by spreading of false doctrine and nouelties then helpe by teaching faith and maners Article 31 The lawe woulde haue them giue themselues to their function yet many attend ciuill and worldly affaires Answere If ciuill and ecclesiasticall causes bee so repugnant as is pretended why doe ministers gouerne their families or colledges or what hath T. Cartw. to meddle with the charge of his hospitall a matter meere ciuill and wherein he hath done more good then in ecclesiasticall causes For he hath bestirred himselfe so that what by rewardes what by auailes of his hospitall and pinching those that are committed to his charge and what by buying and selling the man is growen fatte and rich Of his ministery wee see no fruit but contention and trouble Percase hee will say hee is no minister But why then doth hee meddle with the ministers office like to him are his followers men verie stirring and busie in all matters of state howsoeuer this man misliketh them therin Contrariwise for subiectes to execute the commaundementes of the prince and to see their ministerie also discharged is commendable and not onely allowable The lawes of God and the lande allowe it Wherefore then shoulde hee maliciously condemne that which hee cannot disprooue Article 32 Bishops only excommunicate and suspend yet by the booke of ordering ministers euery one is to administer the discipline of Christ And Christ hath giuen the keyes equally Answere The lawe is misreported and misinterpreted For the words are that ministers shoulde minister discipline as this Church hath receiued it and so they doe And by discipline is admonition publicke and priuate and preaching and executing the ordinaries sentence vnderstoode That euery minister by law shoulde excommunicate or suspend others equally cannot bee prooued the keyes were giuen to the Church yet euery one doth not vse them equally the priests of the lawe were all partakers of the priesthoode yet might not all doe all things All were not Iudges nor gouernours nor looked to all things But these fellowes would haue an Anabaptistical equallity brought in that such as haue no merite to mount higher may bring downe others lower make them equall to themselues Both the wordes and practise of the lawe make against the libeller besides all this it woulde bee infinitely inconuenient and absurde if such armes as the Church censures were put in euery cockebrayned fellowes handling and such odde fellowes as the puritanes are made gouernours of the Church equall with the best Article 33 The Bishops Chapplaynes and Doctors vse not priuate admonition in their Cures Answere Many things the libeller affirmeth and prooueth nothing So that it should seeme he taketh pleasure in talking and calumniating But suppose they did not folow the course of puritanes in priuate and parlour admonitions paraphrases is not the office of the minister publike not priuate must he as these puritanes do creepe into womens closets or must he put his feete vnder euery marchant mans table their shriue them such admonitions as the office of ministers and lawes require they do vse The course of puritanes in their priuate exercises and paraphrases they take neither to be commaunded by law nor to bee suffred in reason for the manifold abuses of it and much more credite were it for the puritanes if they had neuer begunne their table sermons nor secrete conference and catechizations of other mens wiues and daughters Article 34 The bishops admit not preachers to preach without licence and make vnpreaching ministers and ordeine ministers without Cure and preach out of Apocrypha against law Answere Neither doe they herein against lawe nor reason For albeit ministers haue by their ordination power to announce the worde by reading yet is it not fitte that euery one should expond it but such as haue learning that is knowen by long experience and must bee testified by writing And good it were that many that take vpon them to preach were turned backe to read For they marre and abuse many good texts of scripture fill the peoples eares with nouelties and want discretion to profit them either in faith or maners Secondly they make none vnpreaching ministers but giue euerie one licence to announce the worde by reading and priuate admonition albeit not by publique exposition Neyther if they shoulde make ministers such onely as can breake the worde aright and are answerable to Saint Paules rules should they finde many such among the conceited sort that preach not Gods word but their owne conceits Thirdly it is not vnfit nor against lawe that men learned should be made ministers though presently they haue no cures nor doth the booke of making ministers condemne it For albeit the word congregation bee vsed yet nameth it no speciall congregation Finally it is not vsuall for any to chuse textes out of the Apocryphall Scriptures yet if any do so the offence is not great seeing for maners they are to bee read and hauing confirmation of Canonicall scriptures are to be receiued That which he saith of bishops that they take away letters of orders vpon euery supposed misdemeanour is vntrue For neither doe they offer it nor may they doe it by lawe Article 35 Seldome doe bishops at the time of their consecration vse Coapes and neuer vse they pastorall staues yet both required by law Answere Neyther Coapes nor pastorall staues are by lawe enioyned to bee vsed The booke of ordering ministers printed Anno 1559. shall witnesse with mee that I say trueth yet in mine opinion it were not amisse to vse pastorall staues if for none other cause yet to beate such
by Fitzherbert For otherwise that writte should be contrarie to infinite other lawes Vpon this error what maruell is it if Crompton a man of no iudgement hath bene deceaued seeing Fitzherbert hath also mistaken such matters Neither is it maruell that lawyers speaking for their clyents doe speake otherwise then lawe For neuer before this time was it heard that the pleading of lawyers shoulde be accounted to be lawe further then they bring lawe and reason out of lawe To make a somme therefore of these matters Master Cooke who now for his manifolde good partes is made her maiesties Solicitor shall yeelde no thankes to this Libeller for bringing his name in question to bee a fauourer of malcontentes and an enemie to the Ecclesiasticall state Neither shall any credite you hereafter for this your notorious belying the Iudges For it is well knowen that the Iudges haue resolutely both condemned the disloyall practises of this sorte of men and also allowed the proceedings of the Ecclesiasticall courtes Nor shall any allowe your malice that with false reportes goe about to enkindle a dislyking among Iudges And therefore vnlesse you set downe the state of the controuersie better and reason more sufficiently both your selfe as an ignorant Put-case and your cause as repugnant to lawe will be condemned Quaere Putcase Quaest 26. if the high Commissioners for Ecclesiasticall causes may cite men Ex officio to accuse themselues in matters neither Testamentarie nor Matrimoniall and may committe the Queenes subiectes to prison especially for refusing to take the othe And whether they ought not to take bayle and whether the writte De homine replegiando doeth not lye in that case Item what satisfaction Doctor Coosin Doctor Stanhoppe and Doctor Bancrofte will make to those that are so wrongfully imprisoned Item whether for that matter they may keepe men in prison without calling them to answere and finally whether they deserue not like punishment therefore themselues Here is great noyse Answere little wooll many wordes little witte much malice little or no reason For the high Commissioners they bee many of them men of great honor and such as will doe no wrong to any nor will proceede without sufficient warrant If they haue passed the limites of their Commission why is not remedie of lawe sought For satisfaction to these doughtie demaundes I aunswere First that no man is called to accuse himselfe but to aunswere accusations obiected by others Secondly that they haue power to call offenders before them and to examine them and that their iurisdiction were vaine if they might not punish the contumacious Thirdly that if such as are committed to prison for contempt might be bayled there were then no meanes to punish a contempt and that offenders put in prison for contempt are not baylable Fourthly that the writte De homine replegiando is not in this case grauntable as all lawyers can tell him Fiftly that they may deale in many causes besides Matrimoniall and Testamentarie Sixtly that the learned men there mentioned haue great wrong to bee thus contumeliously abused by this libeller they hauing done wrong to no man Seuenthly that men committed for disobedience are not to bee released but vpon their conformitie And finally that such libellers as take vpon them to raile at Iudges and to oppugne lawful proceedings are to haue their mouthes muzzeled vp and their malice repressed Quaere Whether any Ecclesiasticall Iudge hath conuented Putcase Quest 27. examined and committed any for matters felonious touching the Queenes crowne and dignitie And whether these practises doe not instanter instantius and instantissimè craue the Praemunire That his companions are in case of Praemunire Answere it is out of question for that they haue contrarie to the prerogatiue of the crowne brought in forreine lawes and forreine iurisdiction of more then papall Elders and made diuers Ecclesiasticall constitutions contrarie to the lawes of the realme Nay it were to be wished that they had onely offended against the statute of Prouisors But their deniall of the supremacie is a further point What then doeth that craue Let him speake in his Proctors stile It craueth consideration and the perturbers of the state craue a wiser Proctor As for Ecclesiasticall Iudges it is well knowen that they doe not deale in matters of felonie their actes are cleare if any man doubt they will refolue him Quaere Putcase Quest 28. whether any may bee imprisoned without warrant of law c. Can this libeller shew any warrant Answere he hath to accuse men vniustly If not why doeth he proceede in accusing and is so slowe in prouing If any be imprisoned vnlawfully the lawe is open Neither needeth he to tell vs of Sir Iohn Markeham in this case For that which Sir Iohn Markeham saith we acknowledge for it maketh nothing for the libellers cause Quaere Putcase Quest 29. whether it be not lesse danger to blaspheme the name of God then to speake against a Lord Bishop And whether moe Ministers haue not bene depriued within this seuen yeeres for ceremonies of men then for dronkennesse whoredome c. If it were so dangerous to speake against bishops Answere as this fellow pretendeth they would not be so reuiled nor reuelled at by such reuellers as this The cōparison which he maketh is odious Moe be punished for abusing the Consistorie then for abusing the name of God more doe these consistorials striue about the authoritie of their seate then about Gods honor But what then because some of them offend will they haue all Consistories abolished And therefore let him cease to talke of Bishops and looke bakeward home to the Consistorie that it be well swept and garnished To the second I answere that none are depriued for ceremonies but such as be rebellious against lawes and with no admonitions will be reformed which contumacie is a most odious crime and further I say that the offences which come to the cognition of ecclesiasticall Iudges are as strictlie there dealt withall as in any other of her Maiesties courtes Quaere Putcase Quest 30. why the Ministers may not refuse to weare a Surplesse as a Bishop to vse a Pastorall staffe Because the one is commaunded by Lawe Answere the other is not The Rubrike whereby they would proue the Pastorall staffe concerneth onely orders and ornaments to bee vsed in Sacraments and seruice of the Church and none other matters but suppose both were commaunded yet is it no plea for offenders to say because Iudges offende in some things that they may offende in others which is the course of these men Belike these are the times wherein offenders cal Iudges to answere and felons giue sentence against their superiours Quaere whether seekers of reformation suffer for religion Putcase Quest 31. and conscience in matters of discipline seeing their life is offered them by bishops if they will recant their opinion And whether the Popishbishops persecuted any that differed
from them in externall forme and ceremonies As Papists doe make treason religion so it may bee Answere that these schismatikes for their misdemeanours woulde bee accounted religious Otherwise it is euident that neither Papists nor Puritanes suffer for religion in England And therefore euil doeth it seeme that they seeke reformation or deserue to be called seekers of reformation and wel doth it appeare that they haue a bad religion and conscience that colour their lewdnesse with religion and lye without conscience As for persecution it is a terme ill applied to the proceedings of our Bishops and lewdly are they compared with traiterous papists against whom they stand in cōtinuall warfare For neither doe they conuent any but for transgressing the lawes nor do they impose punishments but vpon the rebellious those very easie punishmēts which in time of popery were death euen for denial of the least ceremony which this Putcase not vnderstanding he sheweth himself to babble of matters that he vnderstandeth not That bishops did offer life to Vdal for I knowe none but him and Hacket and a traytor in Suffolke condemned about these matters it is absurd to affirme For not they but others condemned him Neither is it in their power to graunt life nor in their wisedome to offer that which they cannot graunt And if they should bee so remisse as to bee meanes to her Maiestie for them yet would it argue their elemencie in going about to procure their liues that seeke the bishops ouerthrowe nay that most factiously goe about to ouerthrowe the Church the state and the rewards of learned men Quaere Putcase Quaest 33. whether he that publisheth bookes with long premeditation doth publish the same with a malicious intent True Answere if they be malicious bookes such as this libel is and such as the Demonstration of discipline and Martins ribauldrie was Neither is the case alike of a Sergeant arguing against the trueth in his Clients cause and of these that with out fee argue against both trueth and state For it is well knowen hee doth it for his fee and taketh heede howe hee offendeth against lawe but these leauing the case doe argue or rather rayle against the person yea against lawe and honestie Quaere Putcase Quaest 33. whether ecclesiasticall Iudges doe not giue sentence contrary to the common lawes and statutes of the realme and whether prohibitions doe not lye in such cases No doubt Answere there lyeth a prohibition if they proceed contrary to law But men learned will take heed they do not and especially seeing they haue such Canarian birdes as this looking vpon their doings and watching for the spoyle But let them take heede for in warres the spoyler is often spoyled and those that digge pits for the innocent fall into them themselues Quaere Putcase Quaest 34. whether hishops are not in praemunire or at least desere to be imprisoned and fined for practising popish and ciuill lawes in their courts seeing all forreine authoritie is banished and those canons and constitutions prouinciall and synodall onely authorized that haue bene made in England Litle doth this dolt knowe Answere what the praemunire meaneth If he did he would not so often flourish with the sword and doe no hurt Those incurre the praemunire which drawe the Queenes Subiects into forreine courtes out of the Queenes courts seeke to defeate iudgements giuen in the Queenes courts Likewise he is ignorant what lawes are practised in the ecclesiasticall courts For there are no lawes practised there but the Queenes lawes viz. such canons as were practised in England before the making of the Act. 25. Hen. 8. ca. 19 and not as this fondling saith such canons as were made in England Good it were therefore that some of his company would eyther admonish him or premonish him hereafter to leaue babbling of matters which hee knoweth not For it is either plaine impudencie or lunacie so to wrangle Quaere whether the bishops or the consistorie Putcase Quaest 35. encroch more vpon the ciuill magistrate That is a matter most easily answered For the bishops Answere albeit they deale in testamentarie causes tithes mariages and haue Baronies and sometimes deale as Iustices of peace yet all this authoritie they haue vnder the prince and from him they deriue it Contrariwise the consistorie draweth no authoritie from the prince but contendeth with the prince about supreme authoritie It giueth lawe to the prince it doth chastise and iudge the prince vnder colour of the breach of Gods lawe it doth encroch vpon all causes and controlleth all that are subiects to Gods lawe whereof the same doth take it selfe to be iudge It chooseth and deposeth all officers of the Church nay it deposeth princes if the fautors of it say true These therefore bee the fellowes that encroch nay that treade downe princes and as Th. Cartwright sayeth make princes to licke the dust of their feete As for that which this Putcase alledgeth that the Archbishop giueth the prince dispensations vnder his hand and seale it is a fable Let him shewe any of these licences so graunted But sayeth hee the lawe saith hee may well then let him quarrell with the lawe and not with the Archbishop who challengeth nothing as these doe but by the princes grant Besides that lawe was made to exclude all forreyne iurisdiction which these men woulde gladly bring in That which the libeller sayth of excommunication for mony is a leud calumniation long since answered Forwel it is knowen that no man is excommunicated for money but for disobedience to the Iudges decree and sentence And as those that will not yeelde to the ciuill Iudges sentence euen in the smallest matters are compelled by imprisoment so those that refuse to obey the ecclesiasticall Iudge are compelled by ecclesiasticall censures For they themselues doe interprete these wordes He that will not heare the Church c. to bee vnderstood both of great and small matters Quaere Putcase Quaest 37. if Moses vnder the law and Timothee and others vnder the Gospell needed to haue a forme of gouernment of the Church prescribed to them by the Lord whether it bee likely that the Lorde woulde commit the Church to M. Whitg M. Cooper M. Bancroft and others to frame a gouernement for it at their pleasures The Lord doth not commit his Church to bee gouerned by any at their pleasures Answere least of all to the aldermen and new consistories things like toodestooles the last night risen out of the ground and ruling al things without reine or restraint of reason It might haue pleased this libeller in naming these men to vse other names if not for authoritie they beare yet for common ciuilities sake but he will perchance shewe that he neyther respecteth authoritie nor ciuilitie but meaneth to reuell at all that resist his fancie and that iniuriously for neyther these excellent men nor others doe hold it lawfull to frame a fond
consistorian faction good because some here mentioned fauoured it for some had one respect some another and were men of strange Diuinitie for the most part which I could iustifie by particulars but I will not trouble the rest of those that are dead nor disgrace those that are aliue Let them be as good as they are supposed yet doe I beleeue one Father in matters of Diuinitie before them all Besides that diuers men here named neuer fauoured the Consistorie as the last French kings the Dukes of Saxony other Christian potentates neither did the Frenchmen contend for the Consistory which came to be afterwarde established but for religion And well it is knowen that both the Earle of Leycester and Sir Francis Walsingham in their latter times renounced these men confessing that they had bene greatly abused by their hypocrisie Neither do I thinke that Sir Nicholas Bacon Sir Walter Mildemay and such noble counsellours woulde fauour factious fellowes or suppose these whome the Libeller defendeth to bee good subiects Nay one of them hath spoken most earnestly in open Parliament against them and their Elderships so that this argument that standeth on such false assertions and weake authoritie cannot be good If this argument be sufficient to proue them good subiects albeit they deny her Maiesties supremacie in Ecclesiasticall causes and slander her gouernement then Papists and traitors may by the same be prooued to be good subiects for great Princes states and potentates fauour their cause The Bishops and other ministers that liue in obedience of Lawe cannot with those faultes bee charged and therefore are wronged to bee matched with these mutinous mates that with multitude and power rather then reason seeke to preuayle Yet haue they against them all the ancient fathers all counsels all learned men of time past yea all antiquitie yea many learned men of our time with whome neither for nomber nor authoritie are these fellowes to bee compared Quaere Putcase Quest 40. whether a Minister ought not to admonish the mightiest Prince of his duetie refuse to administer the sacrament vnto him if he bee a notorious offender and pronounce him to bee no member of Christ in the communion of Saintes if hee continue obstinate in open crimes and whether vnder the Law Dauid and other princes were not subiect to ceremoniall expiations and the spirituall power of Priestes and Prophets and whether Ambrose did well in vsing like authority towards an Emperour and lastly whether Zanchus Caluin Bucer Nowel Iewel Bilson and Bridges approouing the like be traytors Popes and tyrants If a minister may doe all these seruices against a prince Answere what should any neede to desire the Eldership forsoothe belike one is too fewe to suppresse a princes authoritie for this cause it is not fitting that any such power should bee granted eyther to ministers or to consistories for that which is alledged viz. that ministers may admonish princes maketh nothing for the consistory nor excommunication of princes by ministers for betwixt publike and generall admonitions and excommunication there is no small difference euery minister may vse that according to his place and calling but it were somewhat too sawcy a matter for euery hot braynd fellowe to vse this especially against princes neither did either the priests excōmunicate Dauid nor Ambrose pronounce sentence against Theodosius he did only exclude him from his owne communion nor do I find where any of these learned men euer did make the soueraine prince subiect to a cocke braynd fellowes curse If he were subiect then were he no soueraine prince then should euery minister controlle the prince which is absurd repugnant to state but as this felow doth insinuate Dauid was subiect to ceremonial expiations admitte it were so yet great difference there is betweene these expiations voluntarily vndertaken and excommunication violently pronounced as learned men haue shewed There is no other meanes whereby the 1 Machiauel histor fiorent lib. 1. Popes grewe great at the first then by excommunication shall we then recall againe the Papall tyrannie shall we establish the instrument of so many rebellions shall wee admit such foolish conditionall sentences which all Lawes condemne As for Nowel Bilson Bridges and others writing against papistes they doe not simply auowe such excommunication of princes as these would haue but prooue that other bishops may proceede therein as farre as the bishops of Rome and that with them they haue equall authoritie Quaere Put-case Quest 41. why there may not bee vnder a Christian Magistrate Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and Widowes aswell as Parsons Lecturers Schoolemasters Churchwardens Collectours for the poore and Hospitall women seeing these doe and may execute in authoritie and power the whole forme of Church gouernment desired though their practise thereof is infinitely corrupted against the Canons of the Apostles to the danger of the Church and dishonour of the Realme First it is false Answere that they may execute the same authoritie that the Eldershippe may Who would not bee ashamed to affirme that our Churchwardens may excommunicate any person or that any with vs beside the Prince and parliament might make Lawes and orders but hee that shameth of nothing But suppose they doe some things which the aldermen doe yet were it no reason because these doe somewhat by lawe that we should admit a gouernment contrary to lawes to state to her Maiesties prerogatiue to al scriptures fathers antiquity yea to sence reason That which he saith that the offices of our churchwardens and hospitall men are corrupt to the danger of the church and dishonour of the real me is nothing but a sound of great words without reason for neither are the offices so corrupt as he pretendeth nor is there in thē danger or disgrace nay the worst of our churchwardens are as honest wise and learned as his church-aldermen as fit to gouerne as they yea and our collectors be as good as his deacons and that hospitals be not corrupt T.C. will looke that is a master of an hospitall and a man voy de of all corruption and good dealing Quaere whether the Ecclesiasticall high commission be not in effect an Eldership wherein some gouerne with Ministers Put-case Quest 42. who by profession are temporall Lawyers Ciuilians meere laye men and whether this gouernment consisting of spirituall and temporall persons be a meddley and lynsey wolsey discipline as the Remonstrance calleth the Eldership which is now desired Nothing is more repugnant Answere nor with lesse reason compared together then the high commission eldership If I did not tell them so much yet me thinketh that their continuall declayming against the high cōmission as proceeding contrary to lawes might teache them so much for if they be so like as this fellowe nowe recanting his rayling against the high commission pretendeth why should not wee take exceptions against the imperious aldermanship of the church as these doe against
subiectes to reforme religion when princes will not yea rather then faile euen by force of armes 36 Quaere 2 Ibidem pag. 217. 234. 256 258. c. whether Iohn Knoxe and other his adherents grounding thēselues vpon the foresaid opinions cōcerning violent reformation did not by priuate motion without any authoritie put in practise a strange manner of reformation in Scotland and whether our disciplinarians doe not intend such a practise in England and if they doe whether they thinke that this course of theirs and these their rules of discipline will stand with Gods word or good orders 37 Quaere whether Beza was not the author or amplifier or publisher of the booke intituled De iure magistratuum in subditos a booke which ouerthroweth in effect all the authoritie of Christian kings and magistrates and whether the doctrine therein conteined be agreeable to the rules of that discipline which they haue so greatly vrged the same question is demaunded likewise of the booke called Vindiciae contra tyrannos a booke conteining no lesse pernicious matter against the authoritie of princes then the former 38 Quaere 3 Epist to Goodmans booke whether Master Whittingham that affirmed that the doctrine of Goodmans booke printed at Geneua in queene Maries time against the regiment of women and for exciting the subiectes to take armes against their soueraine princes in some cases was approoued to be good and godly by the chiefest men of learning that then were in the citie said therein either truely or Christianlike or schollerlike 39 Quaere whether the English disciplinarians that were at Geneua in Queene Maries time according to the said 1 Goodman pag. 73. 74. sequ and booke of Obedi pag. 99. 103. doctrine then there allowed of taught not that the nobilitie of England ought to reforme religion by force of armes and rather then faile to put the Queene then 2 Goodman pag. 99. 114. 115. sequen reigning to death and whether this point of doctrine be one of the principles of their new discipline and disciplinarian kingdome holden of most and professed of those that liue in free cities and states not subiect to kingly regiment 40 Quaere whether the said disciplinarian ministers and faction did not holde it lawfull according to the said 3 Goodman pag. 196. 87. 34. 35 185. 180 184. c. Geneuian doctrine That if the noble men and other inferiour Magistrates for feare should refuse to reforme religion as is mentioned the rest of the people might doe it in that case themselues and whether this be one of the axiomes of Th. Cartwrightes heauenly Canaan and a decision of their disciplinarian Synodes 41 Quaere whether the saide disciplinarians haue not taught publikely in bookes rather then there should be no reformation such as they wished that any priuate man hauing forsooth some extraordinarie motion or calling like that percase of Hacket might embrewe his handes with the blood of his 4 Goodman pag. 115. 199. 200. of obedience pag. 116. 110. souereigne according to the examples of Phinehes Ahud and such like 42 Quaere whether the reasons alledged by Knoxe and Wollocke against their gouerner and prince were sufficient in lawe for the subiectes to depose a prince 5 Histor of the Church of Scotland pag. 272. 278. or a regent lawfully appointed as they and others their followers did depose the Queene regent of Scotland and whether their allegations and doings are catholike rules of discipline for all times and all Churches 43 Quaere whether by the lawes of their new disciplinarian kingdome it be not as lawfull to depose a king from his seate and crowne for dealing in causes ecclesiasticall which they entend and affirme not to belong vnto him as it was for them of Geneua to depose their Bishop which was also their liege Lorde and prince from his temporall right and liuing for 1 Caluin to Sadolete dealing in causes temporall albeit he was by right of succession the temporall Lorde and owner of that citie and territorie 45 Quaere whether the doctrine conteined in a 2 Declaration anno 1582. Declaration printed in Scotland why certeine persons mere subiectes repaired to the king at Ruthuen one reason of that forcible repaire being for that the king tooke vpon him to deale in causes ecclesiasticall be agreeable to the catholike doctrine of their discipline 46 Quaere whether the practises of certeine ministers in Scotland for the setting vp of their presbyteries by their owne authoritie as they are described in the actes of parliament helde there Anno 1584 and published in print are iustifiable by Gods word and to be helde for generall rules of discipline to be practised in all Churches 47 Quaere whether that be true that is reported in the Chronicles of Scotland which were perused and corrected by Master Randal Master Killigrew and Doctor Hammond concerning an other repaire made to the king of Scors at 3 Chronicle pag. 446 sequent Sterling and whether the proclamation there mentioned and the actions which then happened be agreeable to the doctrine of the disciplinarian kingdome taught euery where or els be but extraordinarie and locall and onely there to be put in practise where there is good opportunitie offered 48 Quaere whether in France other where they doe not contrary to their opinions for violent reformation of religigion by noble men by the people or priuate persons taught for 30. yeeres and vpwards teach now that it is vtterly vnlawfull for any subiect vnder any pretence of any extraordinarie calling so much as once to lift vp a hand against the prince be he tyrant idolator heretike or whatsoeuer and whether all the rest of the rules of this discipline may not as well be varied by time as this point is and what maner of disciplinarian faith this is that is so inconstant and variable and teacheth sometime obedience and sometime rebellion and like the Chamelion changeth haire so often 49 Quaere whether the wise authors of this petition doe not shew themselues to bee of the disciplinarian humour in this behalfe when they thinke it a sufficient answere in the behalfe of Beza Hotoman Buchanan and others that published the doctrine of stirring the subiectes against their princes to say they write so against popish kings and such as they iudged tyrants as if it were lawfull for subiectes to rebell against such as they account tyrants and popish kings and of T.C. let it be enquired whether he allowe this for one of his cananitish lawes of his celestial consistorie 50 Quaere whether 1 Conspiracy for discipline and examinations taken in the Starre Chamber published T. Cartw. and certaine ministers here his disciples haue not entred into the very same course for setting vp the discipline in England which you shal perceiue by the sayd declaration by the acts of parliamēt in Scotland Anno 1584 and by the English Chronicle that the ministers of Scotland
tooke for the establishing of theirs 51 Quaere whether T. Cartw. and his fellowes haue not assembled in synodes and conuenticles 2 Examinations in the starre chamber and their own confessions there enacted and decreed certaine rules and orders contrary to her Maiesties lawes and subscribed them and procured others to subscribe them and by all meanes possible gone about to put the same in practise and to discredite and disgrace the lawes of her maiestie and ancient gouernement of the Church Quaere whether in their saide 3 Disciplina sacra orders which they call holy discipline all authoritie in Church causes is not taken from the Christian magistrate and giuen to their assemblies in so much that the magistrate is not so much as mentioned when they talke of their new gouernement and how the sufferance of these proceedinges may stand with the maiestie of a prince or with good gouernment 53 Quaere whether they doe not 1 T.C. pag. 162 163 417. discours of eccl discip pag. 148. 174. holde that the authoritie which they challenge to their elderships and synodes by their said platformes of discipline is neyther increased nor diminished whether the prince bee Christian or heathen and teach not that the authoritie of a Christian and heathen prince is all one in ecclesiasticall causes 54 Quaere 2 That is in part euident by their confessions in the Starre chamber whether Cartwright and his adherentes haue not put the greatest part of their discipline in practise without her Maiesties consent and authoritie and without the sayde authoritie haue not both made secrete meetings and established diuers orders and broched new opinions all contrary to the doctrine confession and gouernement of the Church of England 55 Quaere by what presumption he durst do these things and why hee is not to bee brought publikely to submit himselfe for his faults 56 Quaere whether the same seditious proceedings bee not condemned in certaine actes made in the parliament holden Anno 1584 at Edenborough 57 Quaere 3 In his examinations in the Starre chamber whether Th. Cartwright sware truely in the Starre chamber when hee affirmed on his oath that hee neuer affirmed or allowed that in euery Monarchie there ought to bee certaine magistrates like the Spartaine Ephori with authoritie to depose the king c. seeing the same poynt is in Fenners booke of diuinity which one Th. Cartwr in his Epistle printed before the booke doth highly commende as a profound piece of diuinity and heauenly axiomes and doctrine and whether if some other had so sworne they should not haue bene accounted periured persons and whether by the rules of discipline it bee lawfull for the edification of the consistorie to sweare falsely 58 Quaere 4 Examinations in the Starre chamber published whether haue not T.C. and his fellowes confessed on their oathes that notwithstanding all the care that hath beene taken for the perfecting of their platformes of discipline they are not yet resolued vpon diuers poyntes and whether they did wisely to subscribe such orders or duetifully to animate certaine gentlemen of meane vnderstanding in diuinitie to present such a confused platforme of gouernment to the parliament that it might bee confirmed and receiued throughout the whole Realme and finally whether wisedome will permit men to dissolue a state alreadie setled and to embrace a gouerment whereupon the authours themselues are not yet resolued nor I thinke neuer will bee and wherein others see notorious absurdities imperfections and iniustice 59 Quaere 1 Ibid. whether T.C. and his companions doe not say vpon their othes that they meant to haue bene suiters to her Maiestie and the parliament for the approbation and receiuing of their draught of discipline before mentioned and subscribed vnto by them as a perfect plat of Church gouernement commanded by Gods worde doe not vtterly disclaime by a most necessarie implication her Maiestie to haue any preheminence and authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes by the word of God seeing they doe not giue any authoritie in their perfect platforme to the ciuill magistrate but yeelde all that power to their synodes classes and consistories 60 Quaere whether Cartwr and some of his fellowes and followers were not acquainted with the conspiracie of Hacket 1 Conspiracy for reformation Coppinger and Arthington and whether they knewe not that these fellowes or some of them pretended to haue an extraordinary calling which mooued them to attempt matters which might proue very dangerous to themselues whether also they knew not that the actions which they purposed to attempt by vertue of their calling did tende to their deliuerance out of prison and to the aduancing of the holy cause as they tearmed it and thereupon at Coppingers motion did holde a puritane fast wherein prayers were made to this effect that God woulde giue successe to all such meanes as shoulde bee attempted for the deliuerance of the Saintes of God and for the setting vp of their discipline and whether T. Cartw. and the wiser sort of them did not vnderstand whereto the foresaid allobrogicall and outlandish propositions of extraordinary callings did tend and finally whether all these points being such as in part haue and may fully bee prooued against them they haue not bene mercifully dealt withall and farre aboue their desertes that they haue not hitherto bene called therefore in question 61 Quaere whether Cartw. and his fellowes challenging to their eldership authority to excommunicate princes are not like to prooue as dangerous subiectes as Sanders Parsons or Card. Allen are in maintaining the popes excommunication of her Maiestie and whether it is not likely considering the inconstancie of their discipline and resolutions that although some of them pretend now to holde that excommunication doth not take away ciuill subiection they will notwithstanding for their aduantage teach contrary to their present resolutions 62 Quaere whether some one of the reformed 1 Buchanan de iure regniapud Scot. pag. 70. brotherhood haue not mainteyned in bookes printed that princes standing excommunicate may bee put to death and that when princes will not reforme religion subiects ought to do it and that saint 2 Buchan ibid. pag. 56. 57. Paules precepts of obedience to tyrants bind no further then vntil such time as the people is strong inough to resist be able to master them by force of armes 63 Quaere whether Sanders Rosse Allen and other papistes doe not in the behalfe of poperie maintaine the very same poyntes of rebellion together with Goodman Whittingham Knoxe and their teachers Beza Hotoman Buchanan and whether both factions haue not made princes subiect to the people and populer furie and taught the same doctrine of the beginning of the authoritie of princes the papistes seeking to erect their papacy the disciplinarians endeuouring to set vp their papall presbyterie 64 Quaere whether some of the doctors of this new discipline doe not mislike with the
titles of ciuill honour giuen to princes as that of maiestie highnesse grace and such like Buchan de iure regni and with the title of Lord giuen to Noblemen and whether this poynt of discipline doeth not shewe that these fellowes meane to deale with Lordes in time as well as now they are busie with bishops 65 Quaere of master Egerton the renowned paraphraste at the Blacke Friers whether it be agreed vpon in any of their synoddicall assemblies that it shall not be lawfull for her Maiestie or the princes of this Realme hereafter to goe to the Parliament with such honourable attendance as heretofore they haue vsed the first day that it is holden in that hee did write to his brother Fenne as misliking the same and sayde 2 Eger to Fenne that shee went thither 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is with great ostentation and pompe which wordes Saint Paul vseth condemning the vanitie of 3 Actes 25.23 Agryppa and Beronice 66 Quaere why Ecclesiasticall iudges may not proceede in causes ex officio to examine men vpon their othes aswell as 4 Caluins epistles fol. pag 64. Caluin did at Geneua who put the chiefe men of the towne to their othes whether they had danced or no in widowe Balthazar 's house 67 Quaere whether it be not as lawfull for euery consistorie to depose a ciuill magistrate from his place as it was for 5 Ibidem Caluin to cause one of the sindickes of Geneua for dauncing priuately in the widowe Balthazar 's house to be deposed and if dauncing be so punished whether greater offences in princes shall not be more deepely punished 68 Quaere whether that godly and zealous man of God as they call him Giles Wigginton was not 6 Conspiracie for discipline acquainted with Copingers pretence of extraordinary calling and confirmed him in it whether hee brought not Hacket first acquainted with Copinger and Arthington and iustified vnto them Hackets pretended torments and whether he was not acquainted with their cryes made in the streetes and did not vnder his hand set downe certaine reasons to proue that vpon occasion men of extraordinarie callings might crye vp and downe the streetes and whether also he made not certeine rimes and caused them to be printed and sent them abroade a little before Copingers Arthingtons proclamation wherein is conteined That a countrie clowne should teach a prince to weare a crowne And whether Hacket was not that clowne and whether Hacket Copinger and Arthington were not with him in the counter the morning before they beganne to rise and whether these practises and seditious rimeries be sufferable by the lawes of the Consistorie 69 Quaere whether Hacket in sondrie of his examinations confessed not that the godly and zealous preacher of discipline Gi. 1 Conspiracie for discipline Wigginton affirmed That if the Magistrates gouerned not well the people might drawe themselues together to see a reformatiō made whether Hacket casting some doubtes and as it should seeme mentioning her Maiestie Wigginton answered not thus you speake of a Queene of a maygame whether Hacket also affirmed not that if Wigginton were well sifted he would declare matter of treason which if the rest of his fellowes had not bene in time reueiled would haue cost a number of innocent men their blood and finally whether these be holy practises for the glorie of their discipline 17 Quaere whether Pet. Wen. writ not a letter to Copinger dated the 25. of Ianuarie 1590. wherein he taketh notice That Copinger was labouring about matters of importance and prayeth that God would direct his labours both in matter and manner and willeth him to vse good aduice and then saith as Iosuah said sometime but in a farre diuerse course be bolde and of good courage feare not to be discouraged And whether he be not to be dealt withall as an abettor to the soresaid treasonable practises for the glorious cause of pretended sinceritie 17 Quaere whether Io. Thr. was not well acquainted with Hacket Copinger and Arthingtons intentes in that Copinger writ thus vnto him My owne deare 2 Note the brotherhood of puritans whereto it tendeth brother my selfe and my two brethen who lately were together with you in Knightrider streete he meaneth Hacket and Arthington doe much desire conference with you the busines is the Lordes owne and he doeth deale in it himselfe in a strange extraordinarie manner in poore and simple creatures much is done since you sawe vs which you would reioyce to heare of Likewise let it be inquired whether he be not an abettor and concelour of their trecherous practises and whether he holdeth that he ought not in conscience to reueile his deare brethrens treasons 72 Quaere whether the said Io. Thr. did not write a letter with his owne hand to Copinger dated the 18 of the fist 1 This is the new absurd consistorian stile moneth he meaneth as I suppose May which was little more then sixe weekes before the outrage committed by the new disciplinarian prophets and whether in the same letter deuised as may be suspected in answere of Copingers letter He reioyceth not that Copinger would 2 All this is in his owne letter to be showen vnder his hand writing vouchsafe to call him brother and saith that at his being at London he heard some buzzes abroade of a sole and singuler course and wisheth that all that beare good will to the holy cause in that perilous age would take both their eyes in their handes and be sure of their gounde and warrant before they stirred to put matters in execution and proceedeth in these wordes I know my good broiher that the greatest workes of the Lorde are wrought by the weakest instruments c. and therefore were it not for my sinnes and vnworthines I could easily perswade myselfe in regarde of my weakenesse that the Lorde might effect something by me c. but this worke that you speake of howsoeuer the instrument be compassed with weakenes must sure bee wrought by a more 3 A sanctified puritan sanctified heart then myselfe can yet boast of and therefore though in affection and goodwill I ioyne yet I resigne the honour of the worke to those that the Lorde hath more thereto enabled c. Salute good Giles with many thankes whose debtor I am in the Lorde blessing vpon Sion confusion vpon Babell Quaere I say these thinges considered whether the writer was not accessarie to the saide conspiracie and a principall man in encouraging the actors which hee calleth brethren in their wicked courses and whether all his Libels and scoffes published vnder the name of Martin as namely his theses protestations dialogues arguments laying men out in their colours and all his doings tending to the aduauncement of the holy cause as they call it did not tend wholy to an insurrection and whether hee liueth not vnder mercifull gouernours that call not the man to answere for
his manifolde lewde demeanours and trecheries 73 Item because the Petitioner standeth so much vpon Vdals innocency refusing presumptuously as it should seeme any maner of fauour let him also answere whether the sayd Iohn Vdall was not acquainted with Hackets Copingers and Arthingtons conspiracy seeing that Copinger a litle before his outrage writ vnto him that now the Lorde had inabled him to fight to vanquish and ouercome that there was a Fast towardes in regarde of the afflicted Saintes in generall that hee assured himselfe that God would blesse the actors in that cause that there were diuers out of prison lying hid that in this great worke were hammering their heads c. that the same persons hoped in short time to bee brought forth into the sight of Vdals brethren and their owne enemies that their presence would daunt the enemies that God would vse base men in this worke lest men should boast in the arme of flesh that Vdall and his fellowes in prison should cheare vp their hearts for that the day of their redemption was at hand and that Vdall and his fellowe prisoners should pray that the hande of the Lorde might bee strengthened in them whom hee had appoynted to take parte with them quaere I say whether Iohn Vdall bee a loyall subiect that neuer reueiled this practise and bee not guiltie of farre more then euer was layd to his charge 74 Quaere whether the Petitioner hath not greatly hurt the cause of his clyent Vdall in giuing occasion to mention matters forgotten and almost forgiuen and whether taking parte with such fellowes himselfe is not an abettor of felonie 75 Quaere whether Th. Cartwr and master Eg. did not receiue letters from the conspirators concerning their designements and did not also conceale the same and whether the sayde master Eg. did not will the sayd Copinger to take heede that hee did not by his extraordinary calling hinder the great cause in hande and say that himselfe being an ordinary minister could not iudge of Copingers extraordinany calling and therefore would be lothe to quenche the spirit in him and whether these paraphrases of discipline stand with loyaltie and good diuinitie 76 Quaere whether T. C. and other disciplinarian teachers did not allowe the scornefull and wicked Libels of Martin and also certaine seditious dialogues and inuectiues against the State and whether their disciplinarian rules will beare them out in it 77 Quaere whether any is receiued or suffered to continue in the Ministerie at Geneua or other places gouerned like Geneua that make any scruple to subscribe or that speake against the orders of the church and whether certaine were not banished for speaking against wafer cakes there vsed in the Communion and against Vsurie and why factious persons should be more tolerated here then there 78 Quaere whether it bee a good course to suffer such as doe giue probable suspicions of discontentment with the present gouernment to continue gouernours of houses in Vniuersities and to teach schooles and to liue in the church which like vipers they seeke to ruinate 79 Quaere whether to procure a learned ministerie it be a good course to take away the rewardes of learning or at least to hazard them 80 Quaere howe many of the ministers of the reformed churches haue bene able to leaue so much to their wiues as to maintaine them from beggery and whether any man of worth can endure that indignitie and whether diuers for want of maintenance haue not fled the countrey of their habitation 81 Quaere of Pierce Putcase whether a pretended godly brother as you woulde say W. St. who is a piece of the putcase himselfe may by the lawes of this new kingdome like a thiefe or murtherer lye in wait by the high way side with a caliuer ready charged to kill his owne naturall brother for that he is not sufficiently reformed and whether this bee a sanctified course to win a brother to this melancholike reformation 82 Let also this question bee asked of the same man whether a disciplinarian brother whose wiues misgouernement made the poore man runne horne woode may notwithstanding bee choosen an alderman considering that Daneau a noble founder of this kingdome doth in his Isagogicall instructions holde that all the preceptes that Saint Paul giueth of bishops 1. Tim. 3. doe belong to the Church aldermen also and that it is required that such bishops bee chosen as can gouerne their house well and whether it is likely that he that hath no good head in gouerning his own house shoulde haue a good iudgement in gouerning of the Church 83 Item Quaere because he asketh me certaine questions of Th. Cartw. by what mysterie or science a man may sell a coate and 3 or 4 acres of land and purchase therewith 3 or 4 good lordships and yet maintaine a great familie and fare well and keepe a pedant to teach his daughters Hebrewe 84 Quaere also whether a learned sister that vnderstandeth some Greeke and Hebrewe may not in a parlour at a tables end paraphrase vpon a text of scripture according to the puritane stile and whether it bee not time for schollers to turne their bookes when such paraphrastes take on them to abuse scriptures 85 Quaere whether a trencher paraphrast I meane these that degorge discipline at full tables and vpon full stomacks at their benefactours tables are among those callings that saint Paul mentioneth Ephes 4. and not being how they dare presume to handle Gods word or rather to abuse holy scriptures in that sort 86 Item whether certaine sanctified brethren attained vnto 24 carrats of perfection in discipline may notwithstanding practise the Iewes trade and take 10. in the hundred or more if they can get it 87 Quaere whether a man may growe to that extremitie of burning zeale that euery spring and fall hee shall renewe like a serpent that casts her skinne as it happened to a certaine holy brother at Ipswich not many yeeres since and whether such a fellowe bee a fit man for a president of a consistorie 88 Quaere whether as in Italie and other places of poperie desperate wicked men runne into the order of Theatins or Capussins so certaine desperate bankeruptes and loose liuers as Bar. Fl. and others haue not suddenly runne into puritanisme and whether this alteration be not ab extremo in extremum by such men as will neuer come into medium 89 Quaere why it shoulde bee more lawfull for ignorant men of base trades and occupations to take vpon them the decision of matters of religion and gouernement of the Church then it is for Giles Wig. to become a malster and others of this sect to become grasiers and wiredrawers and such like 90 Quaere whether a godly brother rather then by selling his liuing he shoulde ouerthrowe his house 1 The doubt of Th. Sa. of Yorkeshire may not by the lawes of discipline breake bond and promise and suffer his sureties to lye by it and in