of the xiiij Chapiter of the first to the Corinthians altogeather out of purpose But as it appeereth by this place which I haue opened S. Augustine was of an other mind would haue geueÌ„ such Protestantes an other lesson that they should not mocke at poore Syr Iohns which praie in latine and yet vnderstand not latine like as his counsel is to eloquent and smoeth tounged Gentlemen that come from secular Scholes to the Church of Christ there to be instructed And because the opening of so much would haue ben a great disauantage to M. Iewel and his felowes therefore he speaketh only of Priestes whom S. Augustine willed to correct the errours of their latine tounge and dissimbleth the answer which S. Augustine geueth to those ioly felowes which would be ready to mocke at Priests because of their barbarouse and false praieng in the Publike Seruice By which we vnderstand that the publike Seruice was then in Latine and that it was so strainge also vnto the vulgar people that some of the Priestes and Bishopes did not vnderstand it Of this also it foloweth that the conclusion which M. Iewel peeketh out of this testimonie of S. Austine is so grosse and vnsensible that I wonder where his wittes were when he wrote it Thus he saieth This of S. Augustin seemeth to be spoken generally of al tounges Seemeth it so in deede And do not your self so vnderstaÌ„d the place in y â— very begynning of your alleging thereof that you saie S. Augustine willeth the Priestes to correct the errours of their latine tonge If then it be the latine tongue by name for which he reasoneth how doth it sâ—me vnto you that he speaketh generally of al Tounges Againe if he spake generally of al tounges ergo of the Punike tounge I aske you then which of the two it is like that the Aphricanes vnderstoode better the Aphricane and Punike tounge Or the Latine If the Aphricane as being their natural and vulgar tounge was more familiar with them why doth S. Augustine wil the Priests to studie the Latine tounge that the people might vnderstaÌ„d them the better wheras by your accoÌ„pt they should haue spoken in their owne vulgar tongue and so with lesse labour the people should haue ben more edified If the Latin was more familiar how could any Priest or Bishope in Aphrica be so ignorant thereof that he should not pronounce his Latine praiers and vnderstand them Or how doth S. Augustin seeme to speake generally of al tongues which extendeth out his Reason and argument no not vnto the Punik tongue Here againe I praie thee Indifferent Reader to consider whether M. Iewel hath not clerckly alleged the Doctours S. Irenens abused S. Ireneus hath a manifest tastimonie for the Supremacie of the Church of Rome 〈◊〉 Church saieth he must resort to this Church of Rome because of the mightier Principalitie of the same And this place trobleth M. Iewel very much as it appeereth by y â— extraâ—â—gants and idle discourses which he maketh about it But out of his Aâ—swers is this that The Principalitie that Ireneus meant was the Ciuile Dominion and Temporall Staâ—e of the Citie of Rome in which God had then planted the Empire of the world and made al nations subiect vnto it See the impudencie or blindenes of the man Are ye not very carnal in your Iudgement and make ye not the like argumentes as the worldlings do What societie betwene light and darknes and what participation betwene Christ and Belial what hath the euerlasting kingdom to depend vpon the transitorie and temporal kingdom â–ª And why should the wealth or dominioÌ„ of any Citie diminish or increase the Eâ—â—imation of any one Church Consider I pray thee IndiffereÌ„t Reader what a wise interpretour M. Iewel is He maketh y â— lerned Father â— Ireneus to haue this dul grosse sense in him All the Churches of the world must resort vnto the Church of Rome because the ciuile dominion and state thereof is the greatest in the world Or thus Al the faithful in the world must resort to S. Peters Successours because the Romain Emperours are the migthtiest Princes in the world By what consequence The cause vndoubtedly whiche should moue the Faithful to come to Rome must haue ben spiritual and not temporal They should haue resorted thither to be instructed in their faith against the heresies that trobled their vnderstanding and not to aske any Counsel or seek any wordly benefite Againe in this one sentence S. Ireneus dath twise name Ecclesiam Church If therefore in the first place M. Iewel wil haue the Ciuil dominion of Rome to be vnderstand by hanc EcclesiaÌ„ this Church thâ—n is it reason that he meane by omnem ecclesiaÌ„ euerie Church which words foâ—â—â— in the sentence the Ciuil dominion in euerie parte of the world But S. Ireneus by euerie Church vnderstandeth as him selfe expoundeth it eos qui vndique sunt fideles y â— faithful that are euerie where about Ergo by Ecclesiam the Church in the former part of his senteÌ„ce he meaneth the companie of the Faithful that are in Rome of which the Bishop there is the principal head I adde further If the Principality of the Ciuil dominion in Rome did seme a worthie cause vnto the lerned and auncient Father Ireneus why al Faithfull should resort chiefly thither than which Conclusion he thought nothing lesse yet if M. Iewel will needes haue that consequence how chaunced it that when Constantine the great gaue place to S. Peter and went with his Principalitie of Ciuil dominion vnto Constâ—ntinople that al the Churches of the world did not for all that so resorte vnto the Church of Constantinople but that the Church of Rome continued stil in her Supremacie As for that which you say that principalis Ecclesia is sometime vsed of old Fathers to signifie the ciuil dominioÌ„ and principalitie of the Citie where the Church is although in the Examples whiche you bring in the first of them 7. quâ—sâ— 1. placuit principalis cathedra doth properly signify a spiritual office not a worldly dominion And in the second inter epiâ—tolas Augustini 35. epi. although the word principalis be referred to Alipius as Bishope yet let me graunt so much and consider your diâ—ine Logike After the alleging as the foresaid testimonies which in dede make quite against you you conclude saying Thus the principality that Iren meaneth stoode not in the preaching of the Gospel but in the ciuile estate and worldly dominion not in the Bishoppe that professed Christ but in the Emperour that was an heathen not in the Church but in the persequutours and enemies of the Church If you would haue said â–ª Ireneus taketh Principalitas in this sense Ergo Paulinus in vsing the word Principalis may be interpreted to haue the like sense Although this also were no good Argument when the word hath more
S. Bregorie or Iustinian ye folow both and ye are contrary vnto your selfe at one time defying the Title at an other alleaging it Certainly Balaam notwithstanding he were a False Prophete yet he opened his mouth and Blessed the people of God Cayphas although he were a wicked Bisshop yet he pphesied and spake the truth A Seale although it be cast in Leade yet it geaueth a perfite Printe The Scribes and Phariâ—eis although they were Hypocrites and liued not wel yet they instructed the Congregation and saied wel By these Examples then it appeareth that A Doctrine is not to be forsaken because of the euil lyfe of the Preacher What faulte then is Doctour Harding in for saying that Be the Bishoppe of Romes lyfe neuer so wicked yet may we not seuer our selues from the Churche of Rome For if other causes be alleaged wherefore we should do it they are to be Aunswered but this Obiection of the euil lyfe of the Bishoppes of Rome is sufficiently confuted by these Examples which M. Iewel here hath clearely allowed Yet see the nature of the man when D. Hardinge had saied so much he could not abide it but straitewaies commeth against it with this Authoritie How be it S. Cyprian saith otherwise Plebs obsequens c. The people obeying Gods CommaundemeÌ„ts must seuer them selues from the Wicked that ruleth ouer them S. Cyprian speaketh of Basilides and Martialis Bishops that had defiled them selues with Libels in which they gaue their names to Idolatrie For which cause they were excommunicated of other Bishopes and the people were forbid to come to their Sacrifice But it is no mater to M. Iewel how the case standeth with anie Testimonie that he bringeth So desyrous he is to gaynsaie D. Harding that he falleth into Contradictions with himselfe also â–ª speaking at one time for credite to be geuen to Priestes notwithstanding theyr euil life And at an other time making it lawful to forsake the Doctrine of the Preacher or Ruler for because of his euil life When Christ had deliuered both kinds vnto his Disciples he sayd vnto them this doe ye the same that you see I haue done But where did Christ euer say Minister vn to yourselues one way and an other wai vn to the people The like Argument he maketh pa. 119. Where did Christ. caet As who should saie Christ hath not expressed it Ergo it is not to be obserued Here loe we see that M. Iewell aloweth the Argument called in Scholes Ab Autoritate Negatiue except you wil say that him selfe vseth that which him selfe alloweth not But heare now what he saith in other places of his Replie M. Harding Gheasseth thus It appereth not by Beda the Seruice was in English Ergo the Seruice was in Latine What kinde of Logique haue we here Or how may this Reason hold It concludeth Ab Autoritate negatiuâ—â— I beleue M. Harding him selfe wil not allow it The Argument in deede he wil not allow as you haue made it But for as much as Bede purposely speaketh of such thinges as concerned Religion It is not to be thought that he would haue passed it ouer in Silence if the Masse had been translated into the English tongue But how agree you M. Iewel with your selfe that can both refuse and vse one and the selfe same kind of ArgumeÌ„t You haue I trow some defense for you selfe in this mater For you say in an other place The weight of M. Hardinges Argument is taken as they name it in Scholes Ab Autoritate negatiuè and vnlesse it be in consideration of some other circumstaÌ„ce it is so simple that a very Child may sone Answere it What Circumstance then is that which being obserued maketh the Argument ab Authoritate negatiuè good Surely that Circumstance were wel worth the learning that we might perceaue both how to make such Arguments ourselues without doubt of your reprehension and also howe to warne you thereof when yourselfe goe without the Cumpasse of your owne Circumstance Perchaunce you meane hereby not more but that which you haue alreadie expressed in the first Article where H. Harding obiecteth vnto you the Common vse of this kind of Reasoning which is ab Authoriâ—ate negatiuâ—â— For thus you say and it is I beleue the moste you can say that The Argument ab Authoritate negatiuâ—â— is thought to be good when so euer prouf is taken of Gods word and is vsed not only by vs but also by S. Paule and by many of the Catholike Fathers S. Paule sayeth God sayed not vnto Abraham In thy SEEDES al nations shal be blessed but in thy SEEDE which is Christ. And thereof he thought he made a good Argument Suffer me than to make a like Argument out of Good woord and let me haue your Answer vsed it Christ saith to S. Peter Feede my sheep he said not these or them Ergo vvithout Exception he comâ—â—itted his sheep vnto S. Peter But you like not this Argument For you say it is against the Rules of Logique and that it was An Errour in Bonifacius to reason thus Dominus dixit Generaliter c. The Lord said Generally vnto Peter feede my Sheepe he said not specially feed these or them therefore we must vnderstande that he committed them vnto Peter altogeather Yet this Argument is like to that of S. Paules of SEEDES and SEEDE which in deede is not 〈…〉 negatiuè but Affirmatiuè For he presseth the woorde of the Scripture SEEDE in the Singular nuÌ„ber which to make the better obserued he biddeth it to be noted y â— it was not said SEEDES But how so euer that be M. Iewels Art may be wel inough espied which al at pleasure affirmeth and denieth saieth and vnsayeth maketh Rules and Obserueth them not and is Contradictorie vnto him self in very many places This very name the HEADE of the vniuersal Church is the very thing that we deny Then are you a very vnwise man to sett the State and Substance of your question vpon a Name And to contend vpon words affirming them to be the very thinges And there appeereth here vnto me to be a manifest Contradiction that the name should be the thing For if it were so that al this writing on both sides were no more but an Alteration of Brammarians or Rhetoricians then in deede it might be a questioÌ„ whether this woorde HEADE were euer Readen in such a Case or such an Author or euer applied to such and such a person then â—roprely the Name should be the thing But now wheras al our coÌ„flict is about the Truth of thinges that are to be beleued and we seeke not after Termes and Phrases of Speache but sense and meaning of Truthes And whereas the vnderstanding which both partes thinke to instructe is not bettered by any NAMES but by the very thinges them selues It is al togeather vnreasonable to
THE THIRD BOOKE DECLARING BY Examples out of Auncient Councels Fathers and Later writers that it is time to BEWARE OF M. IEWEL By Iohn Rastel Master of Art and Student of Diuinitie Math. 7. Beware of false Prophets which come vnto you in the cotes of sheepe but inwardly are Ravening Wolues c. ANTVERPIAE Ex officina Ioannis Fouleri M.D.LXVI To the Indifferent Reader I PERFOVRME now vnto thee Indifferent Reader that which I Promised in my last booke which was to geue thee other Argumentes then presently at that time I did prosecute for which thou shouldest BEVVARE of M. Iewel The Arguments coÌ„stist in these pointes that M. Iewel 1 Hath made an vnreasonable Accompt vpon the first six hundred yeares 2 That him selfe vseth the Testimonies of what so euer Age. 3 That he wil not stand to the Testimonies of the first six hundred yeares 4 That he vseth the selfe same Testimonies of the first six hundred yeares against which he bringeth Exceptions 5 That he alleageth such Authorities of Fathers as do plainely confound the Procedinges 6 That he alleageth for him selfe the woordes and deedes of Old condemned Heretiques 7 That he hath Abused Aunciente Councels 8 That he hath abused the Decrees of the Canon Law 9 That he hath abused the very Gloses of the Canon Law 10 That he hath abused the Constitutions of the Ciuile Lawe 11 That he hath abused the Auncient Fathers 12 That he hath abused Later Writers 13 That he hath â—alleâ— into many Contradictions to him selfe 14 That he hath a great accompt to be made for his Lies 15 And that if the foolish Obiection be allowed â—mong the Brethren he is a Borower These be the Argumentes made to perswade thee to BEVVARE of M. Iewel And these I haue confirmed and declared by their propre and peculiar Examples What remaineth then Any other thing thau that such a destroyer spoiler of Soules should be brought to his Answer This in deede should be done with the first if there were that care in men of their Soules as should be in them that acknowledge any Immortalitie of the Soule But I may wel compare the seeing and suffering of false and blind Teachers that now take cure of Soules to the permitting honouring of Mountebanks that goe abroad with diuerse thinges for mens Bodies These Mountebanks are a free kind of Wanderers Pedlars Surgeans Physitians Historiographers Poetes or what so euer name besides you wil geue vnto them men altogeather for the penie which is the cause that they professe so many thinges They take vp their standing in Market places or void roomes meere for the â—â—course of people there they set a stoole to stand vpon or make a litle scaffold for the purpose from which they play their part Their Greatest Grace is in the Countenance Tongue through which they looke so Saddely and speake so eloqueÌ„tly that a man would sweare vpoÌ„ a booke for them that they thinke as they speake speak nomore than they wil do What so euer thing they haue to sel as Newes out of India Or The Original of the Turkishe Empire Or Mery Tales Or Songes and Ballets Or a Pouder to kil wormes Or A Preseruatiue againste the Plague Or A Water to make the skynne faire and white Or Pinnes Pointes Laces whistles other such ware whatsoeuer it be they commend it and praise it before But they doâ— it with such a Grace with such a Constancie with such Copie of words with such mouing of Affectioâ—s that it is wonderful As If it be a Water a Pouder an Oyntmente a Confection not worth twentie pence he wil make such a doe about it as though it could scarse be bought for halfe a Kinges raunsome And standing first vp like a worshipful man Arayed in his silkes and veluettes And al to be rayed with braslettes bowed peeces of golde And chained about the neck with a great thing of copper and gylt as many iudgâ— but of pure and fine gold as farre as the eye seeth he wil tel his Audience That he is come vnto them for good wils sake moued in him by the Fame and Worthines of them and theyr Citie or Toune He will tell them that he can not tarie long that before he depart he would faiâ—e bestow vpon them some token of his good affection Then wil he bringfurth that water or pouder or conceipt which he would vtter and say That it was brought from beyonde Calecut or the Red Sea and then wil he point with his finger towardes Calecut and make a like disgressioÌ„ to declare how far that is of from their Countrie as M. Iewel doth to praise after his maner y â— Popes of Rome after this he wil shew the vertue and strength of his Pouder And further declare how much thereof hath been bought in greate Cities and of noble Personages which he wil name and further yet he wil make them think that it is al that he hath leaft that which he offereth to be bought of them He wil also disgrace other Mountebankes that goe abroad the Countrie and say That their wares are but counterfeit but that his are fine and pure and fresh For why he seâ—keth not after gaines â–ª as the coueâ—ous and beggarly knaues doe but as it becommeth â— good Gentleman he trauaileth farre and wide vpon his owne Charges to get such geare as may bring Commodities to whole Countries In CoÌ„clusion when he hath spoken as much as he can then he prouoketh the hearers againe and againe to bye And if it be a water which he commended he putteth in Glasses made for the purpose halfe a skore or a skore of droppes thereof If it be a pouder he putteth as much as he can hold betwen his Thombe and Fore-finger in seueral papers and beginneth to make merchandise And that which as it should seeme by his tale should be wel worth a Croune a droppe he wil sel with good gaines for a myte or two of which twelue do make but a penie Such maner of Fellowes be the Mountebankes But what say the Lordes and Signiours of the Townes vnto them They conteinâ—e them vndoubtedly in their Iudgement â–ª thinke it not al worth the taking vp which they so highly commend Yet they laugh at them and say that so good and eloqâ—ent an Oration as they make to the people doth them a farthing worth of gâ—od at y â— least in relieuing their spirits and mouing their Affections So thâ—t there is no greate harme done although it be nothing worth that which they vtter Especially wheras some of the Mountebankes do either by Singing or plaiâ—ng vpon Instrumentes so hold the peoâ—le in the meane tyme whiles thâ—y looke for their merchantes that for theyr fitte of mirth onely they are worthy of somewhat And besides this al is not couÌ„terfeit that they put furth to sale and though they make it
persons When our Sauiour vpon a time preached in the Synagoge of the Iewes so singularly well that all men wondred at his Doctrine Hovv cummeth this felovve sayed they by all this lerning Is not this he that is the Carpenter the sonne of Mary the brother of Iames and Ioseph Are not his sisters also here dvvelling vvith vs As who should say We know his bringing vp well inough And therefore he is not so greatly to be wondered at Such is the Iudgment of carnall men euen vnto this day They measure Truthes by their Imaginacions And set a great Price on thinges that are farther out of their reach Contemning as good or better than those thinges are when they are easy to be found or alwaies present Which thing If it come of the Misery of our Nature it is to be lamented and the Remedie is to be sought for of hym which therefore toke our whole Nature synne excepted vpon him that by partaking thereof we might be purged of our sinne and Corruption If it come of the Foly of any deintines it is in some parsons to be reproued with fauor like as Children and Women are much to be borne withall in respect of their weakenesse and frailtie If it come of lacke of better Instruction Or dulnesse of vnderstanding as in the Rude and Simple of the Countrie they are to be warned as well as we may and for the rest to be â—raied for and tolerated If it come of some Pride Spite or Contention it is to be condemned and hated what so euer the person be But in M. Iewel whereof may I thinke that this Affection doth come of which I speake For you also in defining of euerlasting Trueth by Terme of yeares doe seeme to haue a spice of their disease which coutemne the good things that are nigh vnto them Shall I Impute this faule vnto the generall Miserie of our nature which was corrupted in our first Parentes God sende you theâ— Grace to resist euill motions And for this which you haue already done Repent and be sory But came it of a certaine wantones or niceues in you that as Childerne craue Dis peece or Dat peece of one and the self same meat or bread Or women loue far-fet and deere bought thinges so you will not be serued but with the Testimonies and Authorities of the firste six hundred yeres of our Lord Truely if it be so you can not loke for the Fauor that childerne and Women haue in their Infirmities Will you haue it then to be attributed vnto lacke of Lerning Or plaine Dulnesse that you are so blinde and blunt as to set at naught the Practise and Euidencies of the Catholike Church for nine hundred yeres togeather It seemeth no because the Opinion vndoubtedlye which your predecessours of late had of their owne Iudgment Knowledge and Wittinesse moued them especially to refuse the Generall and Approued Faith of the world And so I beleue they lacked no wit but only Grace and they were to wise to be Obedient and Faithful How now then Was it any Sprite of Malice or Contention that caused you to rest vpon the first six hundred yeres only that the further you went out of sight you might the more boldly shewe â—oule play Maintaine the quarell Make the victory vncertaine And trouble the lookers on If it be not so we shal easely beleue you if you shew any good Cause or Reason wherefore you haue appealed vnto the first six hundred yeres And so appealed vnto them not as the best time to finde witnesses in but as the only time neither as Preferring those Daies but as Condemning ours But let vs first see the Examples by which your fact and behauioure herein may be Euident And then after we shal the better consider it whether you haue any reason or no to make for you And what by likelihode was the cause which moued you Leontius Bishop of Nicopolis wrot the life of Ioannes Eleemosinari ' an holy man of the first six hundred yeres after Christ. Why should I not beleue Leontius Mary he wrote say you A great while after that And what of that Is S. Bedes History of the cumming of S. Augustine the Monke into England to be discredited because S. Bede began to wryte a great while after S. Augustine was departed this world Or because the next six hundred after Christ were much passed when he wrote it Are the bokes of Genesis in any poynt to be doubted of because they declare the beginning of the world and Actes Dated two thousand yeres before Moyses the wryter of them was borne Yet sayeth M. Iewel against Leontius This one Circumstance of his Latines answeareth the matter wholy And in the margine he geaueth a speciall note M. Harding rangeth without the cumpasse of six hundred yeres Vrbanus Regius a Doctor of Luthers Schoole confesseth in his boke De locis Communibus that in the first Councel of Ephesus an Order was taken for Communion vnder one kinde which he being a Lutherane would neuer haue wryten if he had not found it in some Auncient Record and worthy of credite But Vrbanus Regius say you departed this life not aboue .xx. yeres a goe and therefore is a very yong witnesse to testify a thing done so long time before In deede to testifye it as of certaine sight or knowledge it were hard for so young a witnesse but to testify it as of good Historie and Authoritie it is possyble inough for them which are .xx. yeres younger What shall we thinke of S. Bernard A man not only in his own time of most worthy Estimation and Authoritie but in all the Church euer sence of singular Credite and worthinesse If he were now aliue emong vs And might be seen and heard sensibly would there be found in all the world any man of Honestie or Discretion which considering his Holinesse Wisedome and Grauitie would thinke him A witnesse of litle weight and worthinesse Yet Father Iewel sayeth as though he had bene a Reader of Diuinitie when S. Bernard was yet but A Nouiâ—e in the Faith S. Bernard calleth the washing of feete a Sacrament I graunt But S Bernard was a Doctour but of late yeres and therefore his Authoritie must herein weigh the lesser Was he of so late yeres as Luther Zuinglius Caluine Peter Martir and other Greate Anceters of your new Religion Why dothe not the latenesse of these felowes offend you Why think you the xij C. yeres after Christ to be so farre and wide from his Trueth that no certaintie thereof maye be taken in them And Conclude Determine Protest and Defend that to be Sure and Autentike which riseth xv C. and some odde yeres after Christ Of the like kinde of Imaginacion and Answer it is where you say Lyra and Teâ—tonicus Lyued at the least thirtene hundred yeres after Christe wherefore their Authoritie in this Case must Needes
hard to his charge and there was but two poore places betweene me and the victorie which although he hath ouer me yet it shal not be saied that I lost it easely and he shal not crake or triumph that he came lightly by it Confer now this Example with M. Iewels forsaied wordes The place is before thee and being so plaine as it is it greueth me to spend time in Repeâ—ing and Applying it But M. Iewel goeth further he will not leaue so much as one yeres vantage to D. Harding For If Marianus Scotus accompt be true Note here that you know not your selfe what to answer absolutely then M. Harding reserueth not one yere to himself but yeldeth me backe altogeather Goe to M. Iewel be it so Let D. Harding geaue â—uer all other vantage and let it be supposed which yet is most false that he had brought nothing for the profe of the Publike Seruice in the Uulgare Tonge biside this Historye of S. Augustines planting the Christian Religion in England Thus much only then is concluded y â— iust in the vj. C. yere after Christ what so euer it was before The Publike Seruice was in some place in such a tongue as the vulgare people did not vnderstande And what now shall we say to it Where is the Uictorye On your side or D. Harding But first it would be knowen whether you at the beginning did take the vj. C. yeres Exclusiue or Inclusiue And whether you meant that if to the last day of the six hundred yere any thing should be founde against you you would subscribe Or els that if your Aduersaries Reason were not of an higher Date than the first day of the last yere of the vj. hundred you would vtterly refuse it Well how so euer it be it seemeth now that it is but a deade victorie Or a Stale and that he which will checke M. Iewel must begin againe If Marianus Scotus accompt be true â–ª c. As on the other side if it be false then is he ouercummed by four pore yeres yet as he termeth theÌ„ But consider now Indifferent Reader whether this be manly Dealing or no To refuse the Authoritie that is at this present in the world To set light by the Practise and Iudgement of the Church for ix hundred yeres space To pare euery thing so precisely by the firste six hundred yeres that If it be but a daie longer it must be cut awaie And if it be a few yeres shorter it must be the lesse estemed And if it answer iustly with the yere it self it weigheth in no side What Reason hath M. Iewel or what Example and Scripture for him Is the Truthe of God bound to the first six hundred yeres And must it not passe that cumpasse which M. Iewel hath apointed vnto it Is God a God of six hundred yeres only and not of all time and all worldes Was the Holyghost promised to tary with vs til vj. C. yeres were come and gone and not to the end of the world The kingdome of Christ which should be euerlasting and his power which should not be takeÌ„ awai must it be interpreted now to haue theyr full terme out in vj. C. yeres only What Grace haue the first vj. C Or what curse of God haue these last .ix. C. yeres Now know you also when the first vj. C. ended Or what trust haue you in them which number the yeres vnto you Some Historiographers recken one way Other recken an other way What certaintie then can you haue of theÌ„ Again those writers whome you folow either do at this present liue Or he commended vnto you by them that now line And how dare you trust either those that nowe liue and write of thinges so long sens past Or those that a greate while sens are deade your selfe not then borne to liue with them and examine their doinges Consider also how many haue wryten within the space of these last nine huÌ„dred yeres how perfite in life how Excellent in knowledge how Painfull in studies how Worthy in their owne dayes How Famous with the Posteritie How mete witnesses in the cause of God and triall of a Pure and holy Religion Abbates Monkes Friers are in these new Gospelling dayes termes of great shame and Ignominie yet what sayeth and honest Protestant against S. Bernard Rupertus Thomas Aquinas Bonauenture Dionysius the Carthusian and other such Can M. Iewel finde any fault in theyr life by any Report of brute or Fame Or any Irreligiousnes in their bookes and wrytinges which are extant for hym to consider Let him say his worst Let him leaue poring in Gloses of no Authoritie to finde some mad thing or other against the wisedome of the Church And let him confer his leisure to Reading or Examining rather of these Witnesse according to the State he taketh vpon him whose sayinges he knoweth we esteeme as we ought to doe O sayeth he these were of late daies I graunt â–ª And not only that but also and you will that they were in euyll and corrupt daies But were they corrupted in them Did they not write against corrupt liuing Did they suffer new Preachers and Apostolikes to goe out of the Church or come against y e church by their euil Doctrine Or did they communicate with Pope Cardinals Bishops Abbots or any other of all the world in their liuing Seing they neither fâ—ared hatred nor curred Fauour why should not their Testimonie be receiued no other exception being brought against them but that they liued in so late daies or such A world All is Ungodly All is Unreasonable All is Uaineglorious to appeale to the times so long past As though that God at this present had not his Church in the world Or as though ye could well folow any other but such as you heare with our owne eares Or as though the good and Lerned men of these Later yeres departed this world hundred of yeres sens were not as nigh to the first six hundred yeres as ye are and as ready to folow the best waie as ye Or as though it were A Ioly mater and a compendious waie to the Gospell to contempne all Christendome that now is and holde with that Christendome that was almoste a thousand yeres sens not knowing yet what Christianitie meaneth Nor Daring to trust it if ye knew it were it not for the Authoritie which is at this present in Christendome the Greatnesse of which hath moued you to beleue what so euer you beleue vpon any good ground Here therfore M. Iewel defend your doinges And shew vs the cause wherefore you doe or should refuse the Testimonie of the last ix hundred yeres which are against you If it be not for Childeshnesse or Wantonesse or Unsensiblenesse that you will none of so many and so graue Witnesses yet except you alleage some honest cause and reason It will remayne I beleue that you doe it vpon a very blinde Stomake and
contention My questioâ—s are short and easy to be answered if you haue any Faith or Conscience at all As in Example Was there not a Church of God in the world when you were borne Did not the Greatnes Grauitie and Authoritie of Nations which were of it moue you to beleue Did the Inuisible and litle Congregation worke that effect in you If ye trusted the Catholike Church of your time in commending Christ vnto you and without her Commendatyon would not haue credited him can you with a safe conscieÌ„ce contemne the voice of the same Church And to colour your defection and Fleeing from it take holde fast of the first six hundred yeres only As though you could with all your witte iudge better what the Primitiue Church thought and beleued than the present Church which is of one Spirite wth the Primitiue c. But there is no Remedie vpon the first six hundred yeres M. Iewel ioyneth with vs And if any thing be longer than that measure he will none of it he hath sayed it ¶ How M. Iewel himselfe dothe vse the Testimonies of what so euer Age and wryter though he bind other to the first sixe hundred yeres only TO the first six hundred yeres cumpasse then we must be bound al against Reason and Conscience but what shall we doe when the standing in our right against the Aduersarie and the Refusing to encountre with him vpon his conditions shall be thought of some Iudges to be A Preiudice vnto our cause and A greate Argument that our hartes faile vs Dispute sayeth the Heretike wyth me vpon these questions whether the Publike Seruice in an vnknowen tongue Or Receiuing vnder one kinde Or Reseruing of the Sacrament in A Pix wyth A Canopie ouer it â–ª c. Was euer vsed in the Primitiue Church No Mary would I saie if it were to me only I will not Dispute with thee vpon theesâ— poyntes But if thy Hart and Learning serue thee make few wordes and Answer me from whence thou câ—mest Who sent thee What are their Names Where are their Sees What is their Succession What is their Authoritie In which pointes if thou satisfie me not only then in these few Articles which thou demaundest but in euery point and part of the Religion which thy Church aloweth I will be Faithfull and Obedient Dispute sayeth he againe vnto me on Munday come seuennight And before that Day cummeth he chaingeth his minde foure or fiue times with me First he will Dispute in Latine Then he will wryte his minde and speake nothing After that he wil haue the mater Reasoned in Englishe and wise men shal be Iudges And after that againe he will haue it done in the hearing of the people not by quicke Disputation but by Reading only the Argumentes out of a Booke If the Catholike Disagree in anye poynt and stand vpon it either stubburnesse either Mistrust of his Cause either some fault or other shal be layed vnto him And so were many greate and heighnous maters Obiected against S. Ambrose because he refused to haue the cause betwene himselfe and the Heretike Auxentius to be tried in the Consistorie of the Emperour before Secular Iudges And his Exception against the Place only and Audience was accompted an high and intolerable Treason In like maner You shall Dispute with me sayeth the Heretike and nothing shall serue you except it be in expresse Scripture If the Catholike refuse that Condition and allege an hundred Reasons and Authorities that we must beleâ—e the vnwriten veritie as wel as the writen And that the word and will of God is allwaies to be obeiâ—d whether it be deliuered vnto vs by Tradition or left vnto vs in Wryting Yet except he yeld at length all England shal ring of it That the Papistes will not be tried by the linely worde of God That they flee the light That they dare not commit their cause to the Scriptures To be short when M. Iewel now more Reasonably in deede than Some of his Masters or Felowes which will admit nothing but Scripture Yet heretically and stately inough proâ—oketh vs to ioine with him And chooseth his questions and excludeth all our Answers vnto them except they be taken iust out of the vâ— C. yeres after Christ although it be very vniustly required of him and A Catholike should neuer come into such bondage Or not alwaies condescend in these lesser pointes vnto A Protestant Yet if he striue long with him about it and stand in the Defence of the last nine hundred yeres alleaging many and them good causes wherefore the Testimonie and consent of so long time should be alowed the longer he striueth the worse shall he be esteemed for it and the ernest mainteining of euery Truth on his side shall goe in Print abrode for an Argument that in dede he hath no good right Be it so then The Catholike must let goe the vantage of ix C. yeres he must fight within that time and cumpasse that the Heretike prescribeth And although that naturally al men are more fauorable to them that are called in to the law than the suers and troblers of them and suffer the defendant whome worldly frindship cleane forsaketh to haue as much right as his cause will geaue him Yet let all thinges be forgoten which may commend the Catholikes and as M. Iewel hath appointed so let the first six hundred yeres only be considered and alowed But here now let me aske one Question As it not Reason like as our aduersarie prescribeth vnto vs the number and Terme of yeres out of which we must gather our Argumentes that so likewise he shuld not come against vs with any Testimony or Authority which were out of those apointed Limites and boundes of yeres If a Challenger shall say to the Partye whome he Prouoketh come let vs straite waies trie the mater betwene our selues in the plaine Fielde and bring thou thy Sword and Buckler as I will mine when they are agreed vpon the Time Place and kind of Weapon if the Challenger would against the others single sworde come with sword dager horse spere Dagge and what so euer defence or helpe he could get â—yside should he not be compted Awretched and Contentious and A glorious Iacke Bragger He that biddeth the combat seemeth to take himself for the better maÌ„ and to like his owne cause and quarell very wel how Ignominious then and Shamefull must it be vnto him not to fight vpon equall conditions with hys Aduersarie Reason you against me sayeth M. Iewel out of the first six hundred yeres only but I for all that will be at my libertie to vse any Testimonie out of the xv C. and odde yeres sens Christ. Which in very deede is as much to say as knele you here vpon one knee and Fight not out of this Circle which I make to you As for my selfe I will goe or run at my pleasure about you and take my vantage
which you gather against S. Chrisostomes Masse saying Chrisostomes Liturgie praieth for pope Nicolas â–ª c. And likewise in the same Liturgie there is A Praier for the Empire and victorie of the Emperour Alexius c. Now it were very much for M. Harding to sai Chrisostome praied for meÌ„ by name seuen hundred yeares before they were borne I trow that were prophesiyng and not Praying Your troweing is Reasonable And if S. Chrisostome should be affirmed vnto me to haue praied for A Pope and an Emperour borne fiue or six hundred yeres after him I could not but suspct the mater But will you examine and consider it no better Or will you geaue sentence against a Boke before you haue seen the Copy of it Why you will Answer me that you read in the printed Liturgies which are now extant and attributed to S. Chrisostome the names of Nicolas Alexius Yea but where read you that S. Chrisostome vsed those Names when he came to his Memento in his Masse Why say you did not he speake euery worde as it is now expressed vnto vs in Print that he did speake No forsothe concerning the names For in setting out the forme of A Masse the most of the thinges that should be folowed he might so appoint that they should neuer neede to be chainged As the maner of cumming to the aultare Of standing tarying there Of Bringing thither y â— bread that should be consecrated Of putting wine and water togeather Of Praying alowde Of Praying Secretly Of Drawing the curtaines Of shewing the Sacrament Of receauing the Sacrament and so furth the maner I say of these thinges might so be Inuented or Deliuered at the first that they might if it pleased the Posteritie wel continue for euer after But whereas in certaine places of his Liturgie he would haue special mention made of the holy Sainctes in heauen or some singular Persons on earth could he put presentli al their names in whom he would haue to be remembred in those places In deede that required A gift of Prophesying which in this place needed not For in all Formes and Paternes not only of Publike Seruice but also of Common and temporall matters as the Stiles of Princes the Tenours of Indentures and Obligations The maner of Inditements c. the rest of the wordes are expressed as they shall continue only when the place commeth where the Persons name must be specified to whom the cause perteineth there is no certaine name Defined but A great N. set to keepe the roome and to signify that when you put that forme of write in Practise you shall place the partyes Name where that letter standeth So was it in S. Chrisostomes Liturgie The Forme wherof being wel liked and therefore copied out that it mighte goe abrode and continue was not chainged in any point concerning the maner of Celebrating and Praying which presently then might be defined But where as he maketh in Distinct places of hys Masse speciall mention of the Sainte whose feast shall happen to be celebrated that daie and of the Patriarche and Emperour which should be aliue when hys Masse would be saied he could not presently put in their Names What remained then but that he shuld put in such a phrase as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by which it should be declared y â— what so euer Sainct Patriarch or Emperour he were there his name shuld be rehersed where y ◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â–ª was found to stand Yet this notwithstanding who can let but he that would might in copying out the Liturgie apply it to his owne time name the Emperour then liuing But when y â— Emperor shal afterward depart his name must be scraped out to geaue place to an other except priestes shuld alwaies do so much w tout boke as to pray for the Emperor y â— liueth though y â— name of the dead Emperor coÌ„tinue in y â— Masse boke Of the name therfore of either Patriarche or Emperour which is specified in some Liturgie no Argument can be made y â— the forme therof was not extant before the Persons therin expressed were borne but only that when they liued and Ruled in those quarters they were praied for in the Publike Masse But of this mater how some Copies haue the name of Nycolas vniuersall Patriâ—â—ch â–ª 〈…〉 â—lexius And the Greeke Liturgies printed at Uenys and Parys haue no expresse mention of any though speciall Praier be made in them both for the Patriarch and Emperour Also by what occasion Nycolas and Alexius names came in Againe how the Nycolas whom you speake of was not y â— Pope of Rome which liued 200. yeres before Alexius but the Patriarch of Constantinople which liued at one time with him And in conclusion how euidentlye it may be perceiued that this Liturgie which is said to be Chrysostomes was in very deede that blessed Doctours making of all this Master Pointz in his Testimonies for the Real Presence hath spoken truly abouÌ„dantly There may he y â— will see find how absurdly and Ignorantly M. Iewel hath argued For me it is inough to declare that he make light of the Authors within y â— first vj. C yeres And y â— he hath no other shift but to deny theÌ„ And y â— his reasoÌ„ vpon which he grouÌ„deth his opinioÌ„ in refusing some of theÌ„ is so feble vain y â— as it coÌ„firmeth his purpose nothing at al so it declareth y â— he hath a very light head of his owne and a very Presumptuous mind which vpon small Occasion yea rather against all Occasion was so ready to take authoritie away from that Liturgie which both the Greeke Church vseth And the Latin aloweth for Chrisostomes owne But thoâ— seest not yet Iâ—different Reader the worst of M. Iewel As in some examples more I will make plaine vnto thee and so end this Chapiter Of Dionisius Ariopagita in whom expresse and reuerend Signes or Examples of the Catholike Religion or Popishe is to be seen thus he saieth Dionisius althoughe he be an Auncient writer as it maie many waies well appeare yet it is iudged by Erasmus Iohn Colet and other many graue and Learned men that it can not be Ariopagita S. Paules Disciple that is mentioned in the Actes I will Answer you with your owne wise Reason which you make Agaynst S. Bernard Lyra Teutonicus and Bessarion and in your Termes I saye vnto you Erasmus and Iohn Colet liued at the least xv C. yeres after Christ wherfore their Authoritie muste needes seeme the lesse Here If you like your owne Reason you be Answered If you mislike it I am glad that you are wiser than you were wont to be Yet I doe not refuse Erasmus or D. Coleâ—s iudgment because they were of late yeres but I preferre the Grauitie Learning and Number of their betters and their elders Those I meane which liued and florished A thousand yere
liker in their doinges to the Primitiue Church And here now let vs ioyne with M. Iewel Sir Alow you these doinges of the Primitiue Church or do ye not If you doe why are they not extant then in your Congregation Or if yourselfe will be more Spirituall and Deiforme than to vse External Sensible meanes to conduct you vnto that which is One Single Pure and Inuisible why haue you not suffered others which haue not the lyke Eleuation and Abstraction of mind to vse these visible and holy signes of Incensing washing Crossing Anoynting Consecrating Shearing and other which I haue mentioned If you doe not how looke you like one that would follow Autentike and Graue Examples testified by Auncient and sad writers And wherefore doe you make the world beleue that you good men would haue all thinges reformed according vnto the Paterne of the Primitiue Church whose Procedinges are found to be so contrarie vnto the Ecclesiastical Orders of that time Be plaine M. Iewel in that which you intend and Quod â—acis sac citius If you esteme Antiquitie let neither Baptisme lacke Abrenuntiation c neither Confirmation Oilâ— neither the Sacrament of the Aultare singular demonstration of it Reuerence neither Priestes their due Consecration Nor the Liuing Occasions to bring them by outward Signes to Deuotion nor the dead Praiers And that Sign which hath ben vsed in all holy Functions and which of old they made in the Foreheade to testify that they were not ashamed of Christ the signe I meane of his CROSSE which is not only new A Foly to Panimes or Offence to Iewes but an Ignomynie to the Gospell and Apishnes in the Catholikes as some worse than Iewes or Painimes doe Blaspheme thys Signe of the Crosse Mayster Iewel restore againe vnto the Churches and suffer not them to be in Honours which thinke it a shame to haue a Token of our Redemption before their Eyes If you esteeme Antiquitie And if ye regarde it not why make ye vs beleeue that you woulde be ruled by yt Or why feede you the common sort with sweete hope of hauing a Sincere and Pure Religion restored vnto them according to the Exaumple and Orders of the Auncient and holy Church wheras you haue either blindely abandoned them before you knew them either desperately doe contemne them after ye be aduertised of them O say you He that wrot those bokes De Ecclesiastica Hierarchia was not S. Denyse the Ariopagite As who should say that if it were he you woulde in no wise contrary him But how shall I beleeue you Whereas you pretende that you will be content with the Aunciedt Fathers testimonies and yet cry out against that forme of Administringe the Sacraments whiche euery man seeth to haue been vsed in the Catholike auncient worlde by reporte of this writer whome your selfe confesse to be Auncieâ—t and that it may so appeere many wayes And nowe after it is euidente thâ—t whosoeuer he be he maketh against you would you Chaunge you Opinion M. Iewell and Repente your selfe of all former Lightnes If in in deede a more Learned and Graue man than Erasmus Iohn Collet or any other that you can tell of shoulde testifie that it is S. Denyse the Apariopagitas worke Uerely S. Gregorie the Greate maketh meâ—tion Dionysius Ariopagita which is vnto him Antiquus Venerabilis Pater an Auncient and venerable father whoÌ„ he saith by reporte of other to haue writen of the nyne Orders of Aungels Of whiche bookes this that wee speake of De Ecclesiastica Hierarchia is the fellow Origene also maketh an expresse mention of him alleaginge a text out of these Bookes whiche you mistrust But woulde this make you Chaunge you Opinion No you woulde haue xx questions vnto me and escape from me by xx waies rather than I should holde you so fast by this Argument out of S. Gregorie or Origine that you should not but confesse vnto vs that you are deceaued in your Iudgment concerning this Boke de Ecclesiastica Hierarchia And if to proue me to be suspiâ—ious you would in deede incline to that side that not only some Auncient Father but Ariopagita himselfe were Author of this boke Reform then yourself and stop the mouthes of the Railing and Ignorant vnto whoÌ„e Crossing Incensing Anointing Signifying of Spiritual thinges by Corporall and Externall Formes and Imagies seemeth to be altogeather Papistrie Yet it is no mater to me in this obiecting against you what the name of that Author was You coÌ„fesse him to be auncient I infer them that he is worthy of credite You wil not be ruled by his Testimonie I gather then that you Regard not the Auncient And that I proue by an other Example The Supremacie of the Bishop of Rome of how greate force and strength it is the Catholikes Heretikes bothe doe see And as we doe proue it by true Experience that nothing is more needfull to be perswaded vnto such as loue to haue a sure Staye in all maters of Controuersies so our aduersaries doe set against nothing so Ernestly and Outragiously as the Prerogatiue of that See Here vpon starteth a Chalenger vp Shew me sayeth he that the Pope was euer Called Heade of the Church The Catholike Answereth He was in deede Head of the Church as appeereth many waies though he were not called in his Ordinarie Stile of writyng Head thereof Nay sayeth the Challenger shewe me the name it selfe That is the very thing that we deny But ye can not Sir how oft must I bring furth y â— name Mary If any learned maÌ„ of our aduersaries or if all the learned men that be aliue be hable to bring any one sufficient seÌ„tence c. I am content to yelde and subscribe And again As I saied at the beginning one good sentence were proufe sufficient Uery wel Sir One you shall haue if that can perswade you to Subscribe Eugenius Bishop of Carthage answered to Obadus requiring A Councell to be kept in Aphrica wherein The Arrians might dispute with the Catholikes concerning Religion and Faith that he would write to his brethern that his felow Bishops might come Et precipue Ecclesia Romana que Caput est omnium Ecclesiarum and the Church of Rome especially vvhich is the head of all Churches Here now of this Story and Text I gather that the Bishop of Rome is HEAD of all Bishops so much ought the Aduersarye to graunt vnto me if he loued not by force of consequence to be driuen vnto the confession of Truth but of his owne accord to yeld vnto reason For when Eugenius the Bishop answered that he would write that the Church of Rome most chiefly should come to y â— CouÌ„cel what meant he thereby Dyd he meane that any message should be sent to the marble Pillars Foundations Rowâ—es walles of Stone or any such vnsensible thing perteining to the Materiall Church of Rome Truly then for hys wit who
so euer should thinke so might be President of that Councell where Postes and Pillers should meete togeather and heare the cause of our Religion debated But did he meane by the Church of Rome al the Christians of Rome Who then should keepe the Citie whiles they were from home Or how was al Carthage able to receiue them Or what hath the Laitie to do in Councels Yf then neither the walles c. of Rome neither al the Christen people of it be rightly vnderstanded by the Churche of Rome which B. Eugenius would haue to come to the CouÌ„cel at Carthage what other thing may be meant thereby You wil say perhaps the Clergie thereof Whether al or some Yf al do you thinke Eugenius to be so simple as to require that al Priestes Deacoâ—s SubdeacoÌ„s Lectours Exorcistes Sextines Clerkes belringers and Quieresters might come to the Councel Yf some what should they be Exempted from the IurisdictioÌ„ and Gouernement of the Pope Or subiect vnto him Yf Exempted who should they be in al Rome with whom the B. of Rome should haue nothing to do If subiect how could they come without his leaue and licence Or how should not he that sendeth them be much more higher and worthier then those which must aske leaue to goe What so euer you Answere If the Church of Rome be heade of al Churches because of some parte of the Clergie therof must it not much more be heade of al Churches because of the Bishop there which is head ouer that Clergie For if the lesser thing be in Estimation and Authoritie much more the greater in the same kinde must be in Authoritie As if an Angel naturally doth passe in degree of worthines euery man much more he â–ª that by the giftes of nature doth excel among Angels must consequently be farre aboue man We neede noâ— vse so many wordes in opening this Argument if we had to do with Quiet and Reasonable men but M. Iewel wil needes be Ignorant or Contentious For saith he Uictor which reporteth the forsaid Aunswere of Eugenius the Bishope Doth not cal the Bishop of Rome the Head of the vniuersal Church only he saith Rome is the Chiefe or Head Church of al other No he saith not Rome but y â— Churche of Rome And if you wil defend your self that by Rome the Church of Rome is meant in common speache I pray you Syr can you not also remember that in naming the Church of Rome the Bishop of Rome is vnderstanded to be spoken of And if in other places it might be somtimes otherwise yet in this testimonie of Uictor it can not but be meant of the Bishoppe of Rome especially For consider I pray thee Indifferent Reader the Circumstancies of the Storie Obadus the Capitaine required a CouÌ„cel to be kept in Aphrica In which it is for Bishoppes not onely to sitte when it is called but first to determine whether it shal be called or no. He required it also of the Bishope Eugenius For although Huneryke his Maister King of the Uandales was in those partes a CoÌ„queror yet there were not at that time such Flatterers or Gospellers as might tel his Grace that him selfe was Supreame head of the Church aâ—d that he needed not to care what the Popishe Bishopes would thinke in any mater Thirdly Eugenius answered that â—e would write to his Bretherne that his felowbishopes might come By which it is cleare that he wisshed not either for the material Church of beyonde the seas or al the Ministers and officers of those Churches but only for Bishopes Fynally and Chiefly he would write he answered that the Church of Rome the head Church of al Churches might come And howe can this otherwyse be vnderstanded but according to y â— nature of the Mater and Persons which he spake of before For whereas A Councel requireth Bishopes to be present And hymselfe expressly declareth it that he would haue his Felowbishopes come In saying immediatly after that aboue all other he would the Churche of Rome to come he must so take these wordes the Churche of Rome â–ª as they maie serue for A Councel and for the meeting together of Catholike Bishoppes But to suche A purpose it was neither possible to bring the externall Churche of Tymber and Stone neither was it conuenient profitable or customable to haue y â— who le Clergie of euery countrie to be present at Councels Ergo he meant it of the Bishoppe of Rome hymselfe Then whereas he would the Church of Rome most Chiefely to come because it is heade of all Churches he signifieth thereby that his mynde and desire was to haue other Churches to come also For els he would haue saied I beseech the Churche of Rome only to come and not Chiefely Because the word Chiefely hath A Relation to other that should come also though not so principally and agreablie to his intent and purpose Nowe in expressing this his mynde that he would haue other Churches of beyonde the Seas to come what words vseth he Doth he not cal straitewaies for his Felowbyshopes And in respecte of them doth he not require that most Chiefely the Church of Rome should come And what other sense can that haue by any reasoÌ„ but that the Bishop of Rome should come For if he had said thus I vvil vyrite to my Brethren that the Churches of beyond the Seas may come and most chiefly to the Church of Rome â–ª then had the seÌ„tence gone forwarde in like termes And in this case who but Rude and Ignorant would deny that by Churches he meaneth the Bishops them selues Or by theyr appointment some to represent or fil their place But he changed the Termes and in one parte speaking of Bishops in the other he nameth not the Bishope but the Church of Rome Yet what of this Shal this changing of Termes alter his meaning Aâ—d wishing in the former parte of his sentence that Bishoppes should come but especially the Churche of Rome what can he rightly meane by the church of Rome but the Bishoppe of Rome yf one part of the sentence hangeth with the other For this were al together out of reason that naming first Bishops and then a thing more requisite in the same kinde of purpose then Bishops he should meane by that thing which he preferreth a lesse in effect and Authoritie then they were whom he had lesse compted vpon This place then making so plainly for the Authoritie of y â— Bishop or Church of Rome for al is in effect one to them that vnderstand the common phrases of Speach what wil M. Iewel do Subscribe to antiquitie Or maintain stil his Heresie No he loueth him selfe and his owne vaine glory so much that rather then he wil seme to take a foyle and to haue spoken more then he is hable to assure he wil not lacke his Exceptions against the witnesses of the First six hundred yeares For thus he openeth him selfe more and more saying Touching
Victor that wrote the story of the Vandales he is neither Scripture For Scripture he was not alleaged And this also is against sincere and honest dealing to promise or rather protest that you would be tried by any Doctor Father Councel or Example of the Primitiue Churche and now so desperately to come in with this exceptioÌ„ that Uictor is no Scripture It foloweth Nor Councel Remember your selfe M. Iewel There are emong your Fauorers some discrete Sadde and Iust men Whome your Inuention in this place wil litle please And your much seeking to extenuate Uictors Authoritie wil be an Argument vnto them that you fall to Copie of wordes and shiftes of Rhetorike meete for Childerne when Copie of Sense â–ª and certaintie of good Answer doth not serue your greate Stomacke You saied wel once that one good sentence were Proufe sufficient and are you so much chainged so sodainely that you dare set light by an Auncient and graue wytnesse because he is no Councel You neede surely some good counsel least by extreme folowing with al your wit the defense of your mad ChalleÌ„ge you chauÌ„ce to fall bysides your wittes and haue no sense at al of your doinges It foloweth Nor Doctour Now define you then A Doctour For in deede whome you wil alowe to beare that name I can not tel And such Libertie you haue takeÌ„ now vnto your self of binding vs to your meaning that if you wil vnderstand by a Doctour none other but either S. Ambrose S. Hierome S. Augustine or S. Gregorie which are called the foure Doctours of the Church Or some such as hath been solemly Created and made Doctour in some Uniuersitie we must be contenâ— with your sense and let you haue your owne minde and meaning But if you wil be ordered by reason you wil not deny I suppose that Uictor might wel be A Doctour which being a Bishop of no smal Citie in Aphrica had by al likelyhoode the knowledge of Scriptures and grace of expounding them and diligence in executing his office Except that M. Iewel wil be so Iniurious to the first six hundred yeares after Christ in which Uictor liued that he wil Iudge any one to haue ben made Bishoppe in those daies which was vnworthy to be a Doctour Againe if he were no Doctour was he therfore no Father And your self promising to admit any sufficient testimonie of any Father how wisely make ye now an Exception against Uictor â–ª because he was no Doctor It foloweth Nor writeth the Order or Practise of the Primitiue Church O worthy Exception Doth S. Augustine in his bookes of Confession write the Order or Practise of the Primitiue Church Nothing lesse For alâ—ogether they are compiled of his owne Actes Lyfe Chaunces Cogitations and Interrogations But what then Might not one for al this bring a good testimonie out of those bokes for prouâ—e of any mater that is in controuersie And when the Heretike denieth prayers for the Dead should not the example of S. Augustine whose prayer for his Mothers soule is extant in his Confessions quite and cleane sâ—oppe his Procedinges and make his very Impudencie ashamed What new found reason then is this of M. Iewels to contemne an AuncieÌ„t writer if he write not of those Maters and write also in such Order of them as he requireth When we alleage Clemens de Constitutionibus Apostolicis S. Denyse de Coelesti Ecclesiastica Hierarchia S. Iames Liturgie S. Chrysostomes Liturgie Sozomenus Nicephorus Or â–ª the Decrees and Decretales straitwaies you either deny them either suspect them either wil fyle them better before you beleue them Yet there are not in whom you may see more expressely the printes and the formes of the order or practise of the Primitiue Church For where shal one better finde what the Religion was in euery Age than in the Histories of those times and in Decrees Answeres and forme of publike Seruice that in euery of them was vsed You therefore which so litle set by those writers by whom we may vnderstand most plainly what the particulars were of the cause and state of our Religion in the Primitiue Churche now when Uictor is brought against you sodainly you be so chaunged as though it might be an exception against a witnes that he writeth not the Order or Practise of the Primitiue Church And yet this Exception of yours commeth not so luckely against Uictor Which although he take not into his storie the Actes of the Apostles or the succession of Bishoppes after them or al the persecutions throughout Christendome or the Martyrs of al Countries Or the perfection and rule of those holy Monks â—hat liued in wildernesses Or the Decrees of al Councels Or euery other such mater as might be spoken of by a General Historiographer yet what state the Church was in vnder the Uandales he describeth sufficiently And by his telling this much we vnderstande of the Order and Practise yf not of the Primitiue Church yet of that Church which was within the six hundred yeres after Christe the which time you haue allowed vs that in a mater concerning Faith and in a Councel to be gathered it was thought mâ—ete then to make other Bishoppes besydes them of Aphrica priuy thereof and especially to haue the presence of the Bishoppes of Rome because The Church of Rome is head of al churches Which Euidence because it is so plaine against you therefore hauing nothing to said reasonably against the sentence Yoâ— hâ—â—e sâ—retched your wittes to findâ—â—xâ—eptions against the Reporter oâ— it And you saiâ— farther against him Nor is it wel knowen either of what credite he was or when he liued Concerning his Credite he was Bishoppe of Utiâ—a and by likelyhoode therfore of good Estimation emong the Catholiques and A Man worthy to be heleâ—ed For in al kindes and Contrarietiâ—s of Religion such as are high Priestes Bishops or Superintendents it seemeth that they are of the better sort of the Famiâ—ie Churche or Cougregation out of which they are taken do doe that Office And further whose bookes were compâ—ed then worthy the copieng out and were so kept then that they remaine yet vnto vs And are so accepted at this present that they be translated into French His credite needeth not to be mistrusted or called without cause into question He wrote also vnto Hunericus King of Uandales an accoÌ„pt of his faith being driuen thereto by the CoÌ„maundement of y â— King By which you may perceiue that great accoÌ„pt was made of him Concerning then his age he liued not long after the time of S. Augustine farre within the First six hundred yeares out of which any Testimonie is sufficient against you For when the Uandales were in Aphrica and were busy in furthering the Procedinges of the Arrians then liued Uictor as may appeere by his Answer to Hunericus by diuerse places of his historie in which he speaketh of him selfe as one present at y â— doing
thinke wel vpon that it maie be perceiued howe wel the Protestantes and Arrians agree together in their prowde and rebellious behauyours how wel the testimonie of blasphemous Heretikes maie serâ—e to disproue any Catholike and honest conclusion An other Example is Donatus being condemned by threescore ten Bishops in Aphrica Appealed vnto the Emperour Constantinus and was receiued But what was Donatus A singular prowd heretike For profe wherof let y â— Epistles and bookes whiche S. Augustin wrote against him and his folowers be witnesses Let that 〈◊〉 also be witnesse which S. Augustine wrote purposely of heresies In which the Donatiani or Donatistae haue their proper place For when Cecilanus A Catholike and good man was made against their wils Bishope of Carthage they obiected certaine crimes against vs which being not proued and sentence going against their Donatus being their Captain they tooke such a Stomake that they turned their Schisme into heresie and helde the opinion that al they whatsoeuer they were in the worlde bysides that agreed not with them were infected and excommunicated persons And herevpon as the nature of heresie is to goe deeper and deeper still into desperate blindnes and presumption they dyd baptise againe suche as had ben alreadie baptised in the Catholike Churche It appeereth alsâ— what an honest and Catholike man 〈◊〉 was in that M. Iewel confesseth hym to haue been condemned of three score and ten Bishopes whiche was not I beleue for any humilitie Obedience Faith or Charitie of his Donatus then beinge an Heretike what hath M. Iewel to doe with hym Lyke will to lyke perchaunce and the same Sprite y â— inflamed Donatus warmeth M. Iewel otherwyse it is not to be gathered out of the practises of Heretikes what the Order that we ought to folowe was in the Primitiue Churche But of the Catholike and alowed Examples And if M. Iewel could shewe that this Appeale of Donatus vnto the Emperour from the Bishopes that condemned hym was good and lawful in the Iudgement of any Father or Doctour of that age then might this example haue some lykelyhoode in it to serue his purpose otherwise him selfe doth minister the Catholike an Exception againste his owne witnesse the Auncient and Reâ—â—rend Heretike Donatus But Constantinus the Emperour â—eceaued his Appeale What of that Is al wel done that Emperours doe And are noâ— manie thinges permitâ—â—d vnto them for Ciuile Policie and quiet sake which by right folowing to Ecclesiasâ—ical orders should not be suffered Againe Constantinus was a Christian Catholike and good Emperour and he receiued in deed Donatus Appeale but receaâ—ed he it willingly or no And thought he hymselfe to doe therein lawfully as A Supreme head and Gouernour or els to passe the bondes of his Imperial Authoritie and to medle with a Iurisdiction belonging to more excellent Officers UVndoubtedly he would faine haue been rid of the importunitie of the Donatistes and lyked it not in his owne conscience that himselfe should be taken for the highest Iudge in maters Ecclesiastical HJow proâ—e I this now Sufficiently inough by S. Augustine And marke the place well Indifferent Reader that thou maiest see the deuotion of that so mightie an Emperour First Donatus and his felowes perceiuing that although they had condemned Cecilianus y â— Bishope of Carthage and set an other of their ownâ— making in his place Yet the rest of the Bishopes of the world dyd stil write and send to Cecilianus as the true Bishope in deede and such as they communicated withal they I saie perceauing this made sute to Coâ—stantinâ—s the Emperour that they might haue the cause of Cecilianus examined before the Bishopes of beyond the seas In which point S. Augustine findeth that they had a duble fetche and subtiltie The one that if those Bishoppes whom the Emperour had procured to heaâ—e the whole mater should condemne Cecilianus then loe they should haue their lust fulfilled The other that if those should absolâ—e him then would he with his fellowes say that the Iudges were not indifferent and so by consequence appeale from them In which case though as S. Augustin saith there remained a general Councel of the vniuerfal Church in which the cause betweene them and their Iudges shoulde haue ben handeled yet what did they Mary they went to the Emperour and accused the foresaid Bishopes before him And how was this taken thinke we of the Catholikes Uerely not wel as appeereth by S. Augustine which noteth the Donatistes of folish boldnes therein Iudices enim Ecclesiasticâ—s c. For the Ecclesiastical Iudges Bishopes of so great Authoritie by vvhose sentence and iudgement both the Innocencie of Cecilianus and their naughtinessâ— vvas declared these men of such worthines saith S. Augustine they durst accuse not before other their felâ—vvebishopes and Collegies but vnto the Emperour that they had 〈◊〉 iudged vvel But now when they had broken the order of the Ecclesiastical Law and were come to the Emperour what did he Did he commende their Obedience or Wisedome Did he preferre his owne Courte and Authoritie before the Consistoâ—ie and Iudgement of Bishoppes What he did the Actes and Registers of his owne Courte declare as S. Austine recordeth out of it For after y â— Donatistes were now coÌ„demned by y â— Pope of Rome other Bishopes assistant and refused to stand to their sentence requiring helpe at the Emperours handes Dedit ille aliud Iudicium Arelatense aliorum scilicet Episcoporum He gaue and appointed vnto them other Iudges at Arles I meane other Bisshoppes Why if the Emperour had in those daies taken the Pope for chiefe Bishope in al the worlde would he haue further committed vnto the Bishop of Arls the sitting vpon that cause which already was decided by the Bishop of Rome It seemeth altogeather vnlikely And therefore M. Iewel may be thought to bring in deede an inuincible Argument for the Emperours Supremacie against the Supremacie of the Bishop of Rome But marke the Circumstances and Considerations which moued the Emperour and then wil the contrary conclusion be manifestly proued that the Emperour tooke him selfe to be the inferiour vnto Bishops euen in that cause which was brought vnto him after Bishopes and which he caused to be examined againe after it was sufficiently iudged For thus it foloweth in S. Austin Dedit ille aliud Arelatense Iudicium non quia iam necesse erat sed eorum peruersitatibus cedens omnimodo cupiens tantam Impudentiam Cohibere That is He gaue other Iudges not because it vvas novv necessarie but because be yelded to the frovvardnes of them the Donatistes and desired by al meanes to restraine so great Impudencie of them Neque enim aâ—sus est Christianus Imperator sic eoruÌ„ tumultuâ—sas fallaces querelas suscipere vt de iudiciâ— Episcoporum qui Romae sederant ipse Iudicaret sed alios vt dixi Episcopos dedit For the Christian Emperour as who should say other Emperours
which forgette themselues to be Christians and in whose â—ares nothing standeth so much as Obey the higher povvers obey the King as the chief which is by the interpretation of blinde Gospellers and Flatterers that euery Prince is for his own Countrie Suprem vnder God in al maters both Ecclesiastical and Temporal such Emperours woulde not onely haue contemned the sentences of Priestes in comparison of their Maiesties Iudgement but also haue punished such as would signifie it by neuer so smal a token that the Emperour can not wel be Supreme Iudge in maters Ecclesiasticall But The Christian Emperoure durst nâ—t receiue their the Donatistes Seditiâ—usâ— and decâ—itful â—â—mplaintes in such sorte as that him self â—â—vâ—uld iudge of the sentence of the Bishopes that sate at Rome but he apointed as I haue said â—ther bishâ—pes And that for the causes aboue mentioned which were the frovvardnes and the Impudencie of the Donaâ—istes A quibuâ— tamen illiad ipsum rursum Imperaâ—orem prouocare maluerunt From â—vhich Bisshoppes for al that they châ—se to prouoke againe to the Emperour And what saied he vnto them Forsoothe he Iudged Câ—cilianum Innâ—centissimum illos improbissimos Caecilian to be most Innocent â–ª and them most vvicked Yea but you will Replie did not the Emperour 〈◊〉 Iudge vppon the mater when it had been twise before 〈◊〉 to Bishoppes True it is in deede that you saie But consider that they were Heretiques which appealed from Bysshoppes to the Emperour and that although he heard their Cause yet he detested their Contentiousnesse and thought also before vpon it to aske pardone of the Bisshoppes for medling in the matter after them For thus it foloweth in Sainct Augustine Qua in re illos quem admodum detâ—stetur audistis Atque Vtinam saltem ipsiâ—â— Iudicio insanissimis animositatibus suis finem posuissent Atque vt eis ipse cessit vt de illâ— causa post Episcopos iâ—dicaret à Sanctis Anâ—istâ—â—ibus postea veniam petiturus dum tamen illi quod vlterius dicerâ—nt non haberent s 〈◊〉 eius sententiae non obtemperarent ad queâ— ipsi proâ—ocauerunt sic illi aliquandâ— cederent Veritati In vvhich thing that they appealed vnto him after they had been with two seueral Iudges of the Clergie hovv he detested them you haue heard And Vvould God they had made an ende of their most â—utragious stomaking of the mater if it had ben for no more then for his sentence sake And as he the Emperour yelded vnto them to iudge of that cause after the Byshopes minâ—ing to askâ— pardâ—nâ— aftervvarde of the holy Bishoppes 〈◊〉 that they the Donatistes â—hould nâ—t han◠〈◊〉 say further if they vvould not obey his seâ—tence vnto vvhom they appealed So vvould God that they once yet vvould yeelde vnto the truth Consider now indifferently with me vpon this whole mater gentle Reader And this appealing of the Donatists vnto the Emperour and his hearing of the whole cause being not once or twise but very oft alleged by M. Iew. it is worth while to be wel remembred that which I haue already said that which by occasion hereof may be further gathered and wel be noted See then first what busie Heretikes these Donatistes were and how ful they were of Shiftes and Quarels making From the Emperour to Rome From Rome they go to the Emperour againe From him then by appointement and agreement they goe to Arls and the Bisshops there And froÌ„ Arls they returne with complaint to the Emperour yet againe At last the Emperour himself heareth y â— cause yet would they not stand to the Emperours sentence but mainteined stil their false Bishope whom to put in the See of Carthage they thruste out Cecilian and they continued stil in their heresie accompting al the Christians of y â— world accursed which were not of the syde of Donatus Such is the nature and practise of Heretikes they pretend conscience they commend holy and Auncient Fathers They appeale to the Primitiue Church They craue for General Councels for free disputations for surcease of Inquisition for Seruice in the vulgar tongue for Commâ—â—â—on in both kindes and other such thiâ—ges moe If the Princes 〈◊〉 resist them in any point straite waies they make exclamations they sturre vp angers â—hey complaine of sentence geauen vpon them before they be heard of the lack of ghostly coÌ„solation which should come to the people by vnderstanding of Scriptures and receiuing the Sacramentes of the penalties of lawes and Statutes What is it so litle thâ—t they wil not murmur against if they maie not haue their fâ—l wil â–ª In respect then of peace and publike tranquilitie â–ª if you wil not striue w t them vpoÌ„ materâ— indifferent but dispense with them in theyr requestes or demaundes yet will they not suffer the Catholikes to be in rest And if you put them out of feare of the Inquisition they wil troble yet the whole Countrie with preaching in the open field And if you prouide a General Councel to satisfie them they will not come at it if at euery masse there should be Communicantes they wil not alow the Sacrifice And when the Prince is made by them the Supreme Gouernour vnder God â–ª in any countrie yet wil they stoutly disobey y â— prince in a smal mater of wearing a 〈◊〉 gowne cap. So y â— al y â— they doe is 〈◊〉 to mainteine talke and finde alwaies somewhat in whiche they maie occupie the Catholikes vntil that at length when theyr power is so greate that they â—are meete in field with their Aduersaries they maie boldely and dâ—sperately leaue al reasoning conferring Applealing demaunding protesting and Lawleying and with open face comâ— against the Catholikes Pull downe Churches 〈◊〉 officies Take awaie Sacramentes Alter the staâ—e of common weales hang draw and quarter Priestes Set Inquisition againste Catholikes And confirme their Gospel by terrour These and suche like thinges we in our daies see by experience Constantinus the Emperour dyd not see so much Yet fearing the busie nature of Schysmatykes and hoping by faire demeanes to bring the Donatistes to a peace with al Christendome he yelded as much vnto them as he could and as ye haue heard he receiued theyr prouoking to hym not because he thought that hym selfe was the chiefest Iudge in all the world euen in maters Ecclesiastical but because he hoped in yelding vnto the Donatistes in al their requestes aboute apointynge or changing of y â— Iudges to bring them at length vnto suche a remembrance of themselues that they should cease for shame to make any further brable about that in which by euery Iudge that dyd heare the cause they were condemned Now if at those daies either the wyse and lerned aboute hym or he hymselfe had beleued the hearing of causes Ecclesiastical to belong vnto his court or consistorie what needed hym to boroweâ— point of the law to accompte vpon askyng of pardon of the Bishopes for his meddling with that
cause which they alreadie had ended Can we haue any thing more plaine and manifest that this Christian and worâ—hie Emperour dyd in conscience thinke himself to base to sit and Iudge after Bishopes whereas enforced thereunto by the importunitie of the Donatistes and trusting by that his yelding to pacifie the commotion y â— was reysed in the catholike Church yet was not sure of his doeinges herein but determined to aske forgeauenes of the holy Bishopes As if he should saie The Donatistes here trouble the Church They appeale vnto me as though I were chiefe If I wil not heare their cause there is no man shal Rule them And if I take open me to heare it the Bishops which alreahaue decided it wil be offended Wel I wil venter yet And if the Donatistes wil stand to my iudgement and be quiet for euer after that is so greate a benefite that to cumpasse it I maie stretche my conscience And if for al that pretense my fact shal be misliked I wil aske pardon of the holy Bishopes which haue alreadie iudged of the mater This is the very trueth of the Emperours receiuing of the Donatistes Appeale He dyd it vpon occasion and if it were not wel done he was readie to take a pardon for it In all thinges he sought the beste waie to helpe the Church and shewed his moste due and humble and Obedient affection towardes Bishopes Yet doth M. Iewel bring in this Story to proue that It is vvel knovven that Appeales euen in the Ecclesiastical causes vvere made to the Emperours and Ciuil Princes Seconly that the Bishope of Rome determined such cases of Appeale by vvarrant and commission from the Emperour Thirdly that maters being heard and determined by the Bishope of Rome haue ben by Appeale from him remoued further vnto others Which Conclusion wil seeme well inough to folowe vpon the Appeale of the Donatistes vnto y â— Emperour and y â— Emperours sending of them first vnto the Bishope of Rome and then to the Bishope of Arles but consider the mater truely and M. Iewels Arguments muâ—t be these Schismatikes Appealed in an Eeclesiastical cause â–ª vnto the Emperour Constantinus Ergo Catholikes maieâ— like causes appeale to Ciuilâ— Princes Againe Constantinus the Emperour receiued for 〈◊〉 sake the Schismatikes appeale and 〈…〉 Rome there to be tried and durste not him selfe iudge of that cause vvhen the Bishope of Rome had determined it Ergo the Bishope of Rome had a vvarrant and commission sent vnto hym to heare and determine that mater Againe Constantinus the Emperour yeldinge vnto the importanitie of Schismatikes vvhen they vvould not obeie the Sentence of the Bishope of Rome sent thâ—m to the Bishope of Arls and vvheÌ„ they vvould not be ruled neither by that Sentence he heard the cause hymselfe and mynded to aske pardon of the holy Bishopes for his sitting vpon that mater vvhich alreadie by them vvas determined Ergo Appeales maie be lavvfully made from the Bishope of Rome to other Bishopes and the Emperour is Supreme heaâ— vnder God in earth So that al causes must in the end be referred vnto hym These be the only premisses which the Storie geaueth vnto which if he can ioine his conclusion then shal he make contraries agree but whereas he can not whi maketh he conclusions without premisses Or why maketh he Argumentes out of y â— which either Schismatikes vsed or that which Catholikes yelded vnto in conâ—â—deration of Schismatikes Wyl M. Iewel neuer leaue his impudenâ—ie But let vs go further The Councel of Antioche deposed Pope Iulius Yet was not Iulius therfore deposed This you bring in M. Iewel to declare that the sentence geuen in Councels was not alwaies put in execution To which I answer that if the Councel be lawfull and Catholike the decrees ought to be put in 〈◊〉 if thei be not it foloweth not that the Sentence of the Councel maie be 〈◊〉 or neglected but that they which being of Authoritie do not see the Councels 〈…〉 are to be 〈…〉 Councels neither their 〈…〉 their examples are to be 〈◊〉 You reason muche like as if one should saie against the Obedience due vnto the priuye Councel of a Realme The Sonnes of King Dauid the Capitanes of the hostes Abiathar also the high Priest consented and agreed saieing Viuat Rex Adonias God saue Adonias the King and yet Adonias was not king ergo the Proclamations or Determinations of lawful Authoritie maie be litle estemed For this Councel of Antioche was a Schismatical assemble and wheras they deposed hym ouer whom they had no Authoritie there is no absurditie at al nor fault to be laied vnto any mans charge that wil not obey or lyke their procedings doings therein But when y â— lawful head Bishope of the worlde doth define and subscribe in a Generall Councel though there folow no execution in acte yet there is one to be done by right And it can be no sufficient excuse before God when the conscience shal be examined to allege that because Schismatikes decrees haue not ben executed therfore the Obedience which is due to the Sentence of Catholikes maie be diminished But see yet an other ExaÌ„ple M. Iewel wil proue that Bishops of other Countries neuer yeelded to the Popes Supremacie For faith he The Bishopes of the East writing vnto Iulius allege that the faith that then was in Rome came first from them and that their Churches as Sozomenus writeth ought not to be accompted inferiour to thâ— Church of Rome And as Socrates further reporteth that they ought not to be ordered by the Romaine Bishope You haue much to do M. Iewel with the Bishopes of the Easte and no man I thinke that readeth your Booke wil iudge otherwise but that they were learned and good men such as whose opinions both your selfe allow and commend vnto others to be regarded And truely if they were such men I wil say nothing but that he that is disposed may esteeme their sayinges but if it shal be proued most manifestly y â— thei were rank and obstinate Arrians then truely the more ignominiously and coÌ„temptuously they spak against the Bishops of Rome the better they do declare of what kind and succession they are at this present which set their whole studies against the See Apostolyke and will not be ruled by the highest Bishop in Christendom For proufe of your assertion you refer vs to Sozomenus and Socrates Auncient and lawful Historiographers whome we also do admit And as though any man would striue with you herevpon that the Bishopes of the East did not so litle set by y â— Bishop of Romes Authoritie as you seme to gather you put in the margen the greeke text it self that he which knoweth no greeke at all may yet say to him selfe Bi r Lady M. Iewel alleageth y â— expresse Text for himselfe and it apeareth by y â— English therof that the Bishopes of the East made no such accompt
of the Pope as at these Daies is allowed But what shall we say It can not be denied but the Bishoppes of the Easte those of whome Sozomenus and Socrates speake did take themselues to be as good as the Bishop of Rome and disdayned to yâ—lde obedience vnto him But were they Catholiks or Heretiks Undoutedly Heretikes and that of the worste â—â—king For they were Arâ—ians Howe proue I this Mary by Sozomenus and Socrates both which agree in telling the Storie And that is this At what tyme S. Athanasius fled to Rome being persequâ—ted of the Arrians â—or defending of the Consubstantialitie of God the Sonne with the Father it so â—ame to â—asse that at the same time Paulus Bisshoppe of Constantinople and Marcellus Bisshoppe of 〈◊〉 and Asclepas Bisshoppe of 〈…〉 Bisshop of Hadrianoâ—le 〈◊〉 also to Rome being al Catholike Bisshoppes and al dryuen out of their Churches and Sees through the Accusations and Iâ—uasions of the Arrians Herevpon Iulius the Bisshoppe of Rome vnderstanding what faultes were layed to their charges And perceiuynge that all were of one mynde concernynge the Decrees of the Nicene Couâ—cell he thoughte it meete to communicate with them as with men of the same faith and opinion with him And as Sozomenus writeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 because of the vvorthines and digniti of his See or as Socrates saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 forasmuch as the church of Rome had the Prerogatiues priuilegies â–ª he restored euery one of them to his See And wrote freely and sharply to the Bishops of the East which had expelled them declaring that they had troubled the Churche and that they had not iudged aright of the forsaid Bishops Requiring furthermore y â— some of them should appere at an appointed day before him aâ—d that he would not suffer it if they ceased not to be newfangled The Arrian Bishoppes vppon the receipt of this letter and for indignation that the Bishop of Rome had restored to their lauful Sees the catholike Bishops â—â—hanasius Paulus Marcellus Asâ—leâ—â—â— Lucius whom they had vnplaced they called a Councel at Antioche and 〈◊〉 againe a faire letter to Pope Iulius ful of prety scoffes and tauntes and not without sharpe threatenings also And emong other points these that M. Iewel reckeneth are some that forsoth they ought not to be accompted inferiour to the Church of Rome And that they ought not to be ordered by the Romaine Bishope Hitherto is the storie as I gather it out of Socrates and Sozomenus Consider now of it indifferent Reader Was Athanasius an holy Bishope or no Was he a most worthy and tried defendour of the Catholike faith or no Did almighty God miraculously defend him against al his enemies or no Eusebius Sozomenus Socrates Theodoritâ—s al y â— euer wrote the storie of y â— time speak so much good of him 〈◊〉 declare such a prouidence of God to haue ben about him that he must be a very blinde and wretched Arrian which seeth not his worthines Or 〈◊〉 at his Glory And whom then follow you M. Iewel Those Bishops of the East whom your wisdome and Religion bringeth in for substantial witnesses They condemned Athanasius And for what other cause so principally as for his defending of the Catholike faith against the blasphemies of y â— Arrians Alow yow then his condemnaâ—oâ— Utter now your stomake and speake plainly whether you beleue y â— Christ is of one the selfe same Substanâ—ce with his Father Shew yourselfe as you are in your Opinions and put of the name and person of an honest Superintendent which you would seeme to beare and with al boldenesse vtter your secrete Diuinitie For hâ—re nowe I chalenge you here I charge you Alow you the Condemnation of â—thaâ—asius which your Bishops of the East concluded vpon If you doe Auaunt Arriaâ—â— â–ª If you doe not how can you but thinke euil of such arrogant and wicked Arrians which not oÌ„ly put him our of his See but also when he was restoâ—ed againe vnto it by the Iudgement of the Bisshop of Rome contemned that his SenteÌ„ce with greater spite and Insolencie than they had expelled Athâ—nesius and others at the first I say further If Athanasius Paulus Marcellus Asclepas and Lucius so 〈◊〉 Fathers â–ª â—eing â—râ—elled by the 〈◊〉 of the Easte thought themselues safe inough against all their Enemies hauing the letters of the Bishop of Rome for their lawful Returne vnto their Sees should not this alone be Argument inough to any Indifferent Protestant in all y â— world that he should not Contemne Abandone and Accurse the Authoritie of the See of Rome For whereas the Examples of Learned and Holy men are to be followed And whereas M. Iewel the Challenger w t others of his vaine doe pretend greate Reuerence towardes Antiquitie prouoking their Aduersaries to bring Testimonies out of the Primitiue Church And exhorting their Hearers and Readers to consider the practise of the Auncient tymes and Fathers how should he not haue the Bishop of Rome in greate Admiration whom he seeth to haue ben so highly estemed of the greate Bishops or Patriarches rather of y â— Easte Church Athanasius Paulus Marcellus c. y â— his letters were of more force w t them to restore them to their Sees than their own Power Habilitie was to kepe theÌ„selues in their own places when they had them Note also that whereas they were expelled by violence And wer seâ—t home again not with an Armie but with Letters onely Yet those letters preuailed so much with the People also of their Cities and Countries that straite wayes they were gladly receiued And had it not ben for the Conuenticle and Conspiracie of the forsaid Arrian Bishops of the East in which they not onely set al their owne Power against the Catholike Bishops Athanasiâ—s Paulus c. restored by the Pope of Rome but accused them to the Emperour CoÌ„stantinus making him to vse Uiolence against them the Catholike people of Constantinople Alexandria and other places would haue honored and Obeyed them stil as their owne true and lauful Bishopes Of which it is easy to gather that First the Blessed and Reuerend Bishops themselues Athanasius Paulus c. did seâ— very much by y â— Bishop of Romes letters and sentence And then that the Catholik and deuout people also of those quarters did regard and obey the same Thirdly that such as resisted then the Authoritie of y â— Bishope of Rome were plaine Arrians And last of al that it was not done by law or any order that those holy Bishopes Athanasius Paulus c. enioyed not the right of their own Seeâ— but by false Accusations of the Arrian Superintendenteâ— and Indignation Stomake Ediâ—â— Uiolence Persecution of the Emperour Constantius How litle then doth this Example of the Arrian Bishoppes make for M. Iewels purpose Yea rather how much doth it make cleane against hym For when wicked and nawghtie mens
worse for his handling And cause truly he hath none why he should allege any Glose of the Canon law at al. For whereas himselfe regardeth not no not the Text it selfe and the Catholiks also wil not be bound to make â—ood the priuate sayâ—ing of any Gloser it is a greate vanitie to bring in such â—itnesses as him selfe may well knowe are not sufficient Yet though I say so â—e shall not require of me to mocke straitewayes at any Gloses Or to bring furth vnto y â— knowlege of the siâ—e wittes of y â— worlde some simple deuises and disâ—ourses that they haue made to theâ—tent thei may be laughed at For there are Degrees in euery thing and he that wil not be so good as to praise euery Inuention of the Glose needeth not to be so il as to seeke how to finde fault with it but may wel inough be suffered to hold his peace Now concerning M. Iewels behauiour if he hath such an itche y t he thinketh to rubbe vs on the gal by alleaging such witnesses as we may and do laufully refuse Why doth he not allege them truely Why doth he tel their tale after them in such sort as he findeth not in their owne words Why doth he vpon this preiudice emong the greater number that Glosers are but Ignorante and trifling men bring forth blind and vain sentences out of them which in dede are not theirs though it wil be easily susspected but M. Iewels whome many compte so honest that he wil not in any case make a Lie or missuse his own witnesses in any point This Obiection of mine to Exemplifie or Prosequâ—te at large I dooâ— not intend but in one or two examples I wil beginne the Chapiter that he which herafter wil adde more vnto it may haue a plaine peculiar place where to put it In the Answere to D. Hardinges Preface it pleaseth M. Iew. to open his mouth awide and to auouch that the Pope speaketh after this maner I can do what so euer Christ him self can do I am al and aboue al Al power is geuen to me as wel in Heauen as in Earth You are not so honest as to be trusted vpon your bare worde and therfore name vnto vs your witnesses which may depose for you that the Popes haue euer vttered wordes with such Arrogancie And you referre vs to the Glose De Maioritate Obedientia vnam Sanctam But what saith that Glose Doth it tel of any one Pope by name Or doth it report so much of the order and succession of them that euery one of them hath in his course and for his time â—ounded it out into al the world that I can do what so euer Christ him selfe can do c You wil Answer because there is no other shift that the Gloser speaketh such words of the Pope not that y â— Pope himself doth speak them in his own person of him selfe Why then I Iudge you by your own words that you haue made an open lye in attributing that vnto the Popes owne Act which is not his â–ª but y â— Glosers collection vpoÌ„ the Canon law Then further I say that many thinges are verfied in sundry Persons concerning their Uocation or Office which iâ— cannot become the persons theÌ„selues to appropriat to them selues For the Apostles of Christ vvere lightâ— of the vvorlde Yet if S. Peter had begon his Epistlâ—s with this stile and Title Peter the Apostle of Iesus Christ and one of the lightes oâ— the world he could not haue beâ— thought to haue folowed the humility which was in Iesus Christ. Lykewise euery man that is in the state of Grace is vndoubtedly the Sonne of God and Felow of Angels and Conquerour of Diuels vutyl he doc forsake that Grace â—et if you M. Iewell should â—â—ent yourselfe of al your bragging 〈◊〉 â–ª lying â–ª c. and Reâ—urne to y â— Catholike Church be receiued into the Communion of Sainâ—es it would not be liked in you to write yourselfe Ihon Iewel A Conqueror of y e wicked Sprites A terrour to heretikes A CoÌ„fort to Catholikes A welbeloued of al Virgins Confessours Martyrs Apostles and Patriarchs A felow w t the Angels A Cusson of our Ladies A sonne of Almighty God And so the Conclusion being true that there is no Autoritie in the world compâ—rable to that which Christ gaue to S. Peter his Successors â–ª yet doth it not agree that the Pope should in the first person crake or sound out of himselfe I can doe whatsoeuer Christ himselfe can doe For whereas high dignitie Autoritie is geuen vnto men for others sake which are to be gouerned not for their owne which beare the Office and whereas such Gifts Graces fo gouernemeÌ„t make not the 〈◊〉 of them acceptable as saith hope charitie doe there is no occasioÌ„ to â—rake of that which perteineth not to any man in respect of his Person but only of his Office On the other side wheras to coÌ„feâ—â—e the worthinâ—sse of an Office may wel become a wise and worshipful man so that he attribute nothing therof vnto himself as he is one singular person if the Pope Concerning his Office do confesse it that the chiefe Bishoppe in the Church must rule al Christians and be subiect to none of them al M. Iewel must not therefore slaunder him that he openeth his mouth a wide and vttereth blaspemies and soundeth out these wordes into al the world I may iudge al meÌ„ but al the world may not Iudge me But by such forme of speach the simple Reader and common Protestant coÌ„ceiueth of the Pope that he standeth a tipp toe And ouerlooketh al the world And is in great loue and conceipt of him selfe And respecteth alwayes his priuate Estimation And forgetteth that there is a God and right Iudge and that him selfe is a Man and a Sinner as other folkes are and that he attributeth an Omnipotencie to his owne proper person c. Wherevpon he taketh an Indignation and accompteth him to be a very Beast or Diuel and no man that so preferreth him selfe before other men And is ready to accurse and detest and reuile and speake and iudge the worst y â— he can of the Pope And this is one of the vile and wicked kindes of Rhetorique that is vsed nâ—w in the worlde For when it is plainely and simply said Christ breathed vpon the Apostles and saied take ye the holy ghost whose sinnes ye forgeue they be forgeuen whose sinnes ye retaine they be retained he that wil finde any faulte must not be angry w t the Apostles which take the Grace but with the Author and geauer of it Iesus Christe But no Christian I thinke and faithful man doth abhorre to heare these woordes spoken Now then The Diuel which seeth Christe his owne person to be in much honour and that when wordes are considered as spoken of him the Christians harts are subdued by them What doth
vnto the Bishope of Rome was to sitte onely aboue others cet The Emperours woordes be plaine Praerogatiuea in EpiscoporuÌ„ CoÌ„silio vel extra ConciliuÌ„ ante alios residendi A Prerogatiue in the CouÌ„cel of bishops â–ª or without the Councel to sit in order aboue other Oh Desperatenesse The Emperours woordes you say be plaine They are so in deede plaine to the eye both in your Booke which is wel printed and in the Code of Parise printe where they may be readen without spectacles except a mans sight be very yll But dare you say that this place perteineth to the Bishoppe of Rome For of the Bishoppe of Rome our question is whether his Priuilege to be First and Chiefe of al Priestes consisted onely in sitting aboue other in Generall meetinges I wil tel thee Indiffetent Reader the Sense of these foresaid woordes and the Cause of making the Decree in which thei are found that thou maist iudge whether M. Iewel be a fine and vpright Lawyer Whiles the Emperour Leo was gone towardes the Easte Odactus A Tyranne inuaded in the meane tyme the ChurchesÌ„ and set foorâ—h many Lawes and Statutes against the Liberties and the Priuilegies of them The Emperour here vpon made a Law after the Countrie was diliuered of the Tyranny that those thinges being abrogaâ—ed and taken away which had ben done against the true Religion of God al other concerning Churches and Martyrs Chappels should stand in the same state which they were in before his time And further he Decreed that it should be vtterly abrogated what so euer had bene newly brought vp against the Churches and the Bishopes of them Seu de iure Sacerdot alium â—reationum seu de expulsione cuiusquam Episcopi à quolibet his temporibus facta seu deprarogatiua in Episcoporum Concilio â—el extra Concilium ante alios residendi Either concerning the right of making of Priestes either the expulsioÌ„ of any bishop made by any maÌ„ at this time or the prerogatiue of sitting before other either in the Councel of Bishopes or vvithout it Consider now Indifferent Reader whether the Preâ—ogatiue of which the Law here speaketh was meant only of the Bishope of Rome Or whether y â— Emperours vvoo dâ—s here be plaine to proue that the Bishope of Rome should â—it â—irst 〈◊〉 General meetings whereas there is no mention at al in this place of the B. of Rome but only of Acatius by name Patriarche of Constantinople and of other Bishoppes in general which had taken wronge vnder Odoactus the Tyranne And whether the B. of Rome were one of that number it appeereth not by any word of the Decree so that it is altogether boldely and nothing discreetly said that the Prerogatiue spoken of in this place is plaine for the Popes sitting aboue other or that the Popes Prerogatiue is no more but to sit aboue al others It foloweth This Prerogatiue in Greeke is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is the Priuilege of the first place So is the faining of a Person and making of that to speake which hath no sense or tongue called in Greke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but we require not here of you to tel your Countriemen what is Greeke for this or y â— thing but what is y e answer to the Argument that is made against you For let it be so that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in greeke signifieth the Priuilege of the first place you do not yet shew vnto vs that the Priuilege spoken of in this Edict of the Emperours is so called or that it is meant of the Bishope of Rome to proue that his Prerogatiue is to more but A 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A priuilege of the first place But you procede out of the pupose and saie That these phrases in that tongue be knowen and CoÌ„mon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Like as also theâ—e in he latine tongue obtinere primas secuÌ„das Tertias that is to haue the Preominence of the first Second and Third place This woulde serue well if either we doubted Or were ignorant of these phrases or if the declaring of them perteined any point to the quesion and yet I saie vnto you that Obtinere primas or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not only to haue the first place but also to wynne the best game Or to haue the Chiefeste parte in any Fâ—are or Acte Or to beare the highest Office and so furthe So that to your matter of the Place they doe not serue necessariâ—y And if by Obtinere Primas this only thinge were meant to sitte in the First Place yet should not this proue that the Edicte of the Emperour in whiche you shewe not that the selfe same Phrase is vsed doeth plainely make for it That the Popes Prerogatiue is no greater than to sitte first at Generall meetinges For this is the question And not what Obtinere Primas or Secundas signifieth in good Latine And to this we looke for your Answer But you saie as though you had proued so much in further confirmation thereof And that the Emperour Iustinian meant ONLY thus and none OTHERWISE it is manifeste euen by the selfe same place that M. Harding hath here alleged Mary Syr that is worth the hearing but marke thou Indifferent Reader M. Iewels wordes ONLY and NONE OTHERWYSE For except I be fowly deceaued he wil not proue so much as he pretendeth But let vs heare the Emperour and M. Iewels Comment vpon him Sancimus c. We ordeine Your c. Here first of all hath no Place For it putteth these wordes out which are much to the mater And they â—re these Sancimus secundum Canonum defiâ—tiones vâ—â— ordaine according to the determinations of the Canons that c. By which it appeereth that Iustinian dyd no more but exquute the former Dâ—crees â–ª and was not hymselfe the Authour or Geauer of the singular Priuilege which is due to the See of Rome And now lette M. Iewel goe forewarde We ordeine caet that the Pope Reade Sanctissimum moste holy of the Elder Rome shal be Reade is the first of al the Priestes and that the moste holy Archebishope of Constantinople which is named Newe Rome haue the seconde place It foloweth in the Decree After the holy Apostolike See of the Elder Rome But what concludeth M. Iewel hereof It foloweth Hereby it is plaine that this Priuilege standeth ONLY in placing the B. of â—ome in the first Seate aboue others It is so plaine that no man seeth it Be thou Iudge Indifferent Reader Yea lette any Protestant in al the worlde tell Trueth lâ—e and not Doth he find in the foresaied woâ—â—s of 〈◊〉 Decrec this worde ONLY Doth he find that the 〈◊〉 of the B. of Rome is declared by the Emperour to stand in none other thinge but in sitting first A warthie mater in deede for An Emperour to set furth Seates for Bisshoppes