former acknowledge that the Hussites and Waldenses walked with a right foot in that way of Truth which since Luther blessed bee God hath beene much more cleerely discouered and trodden then in former times If Protestant Writers sway little with you who yet could better tell then you or M. Sweet and such other new vpstart Iesuites who were Luthers forerunners learne of your owne Rainerius and Claudius de Seissel and Cocleus and Lyndanus and Claudius Rubis and Aeneas Syluius and Iohn Dubranius and Alfonsus à Castro and the Author of the Fasciculus rerum exet and many other that the Waldenses bore a Torch before Luther and shewed him his way Yea but Schlusenburg saith It is impudencie to say that many learned men in Germany did hold the doctrine of the Lutheran Gospell Schlusenburgs words are Impudenter scribit Vtenboyus seex Conrado Pellicano audiuisse multos viros eruditos in Germaniâ priusquam prodiret Lutherus euangelij doctrinam tenüisse adeoque ipsum Pellicanum priusquam auditum esset nomen Lutheri Purgatorium Papisticum reiecisse Vtenboius writes impudently that he heard Conradus Pellicanus affirme that many learned men in Germany held the doctrine of the Gospell before Luther appeared and that Pellicanus himselfe impugned the Popish Purgatory before the name of Luther was heard For ought I know Vtenboius is as honest a man as Schlusenburgius and if Schlusenburgius deny it Vtenboius affirmeth it yea and for ought is prooued to the contrary Conradus Pellicanus also yet that which Schlusenburg maintaineth for the honor of his Master no way helpeth your cause for admit there were not in Germany yet there might bee elsewhere many thousands as in Bohemia France England c. who before Luther embraced the doctrine of the Gospell Secondly in Germany it selfe there were not multi eruditi viri many learned men yet there might be some for ought Schlusenburg saith to the contrary therefore Schlusenburges testimony falls very short neither doth George Myllius his come much neerer to the marke His words are Si antecessores Lutherus in officio habuisset Orthodoxos Si Apostasia commissa ab Episcopis Pontificijs non fuisset Lutherana reformatione opus non fuisset Non ergo possumus veros monstrare Episcopos qui ante Lutherum sub Papatu fuerint praedecessores Lutheri Si enim tales fuissent in Romana Ecclesia discedendi ab ista causa non fuisset If Luther had had orthodoxall Predecessors in his Office If the Popish Bishop had not made an Apostasie there should haue beene no need of a Lutheran Reformation Therefore we cannot shew true Bishops vnder the Papacie to whom Luther succeeded for if there had beene such in the Romane Church there had beene no cause to depart from it What makes this testimony for you Is it for the honor of your Church to bee truly branded with Apostasie to haue no orthodoxal Bishops bearing rule in it What though there were no right-beleeuing Bishops vnder or in the Papacy will it follow that there were no right-beleeuing Christians elsewhere It is true Reformation presupposeth a Deformation as a remedy presupposeth a disease a purgation precedent matter fit to bee purged Though the Romane Church or rather the predominant faction in the Romane Church was vnsound in the faith and very corrupt and rotten yet were there other sound members of Christs Church in whose steps it is well knowne that Luther trod What a paralyticall Paralogisme is this Myllius a Lutheran affirmeth that There were 〈◊〉 orthodoxall or right-beleeuing Bishops in the Romane Sea therfore there were no visible Protestants in all the world before Luther Now for Benedictus Morgenst Non est inuentus in Baliua nostra Hee who found him for you makes him runne the same way with Ioachimus Camerarius but not whither you would haue him They both stand for the honor of Luther and maintaine that he alone laid the first stone in the Fabrick of reformation that none ought to share with him in that dignity in beeing the first Apostle of the reformed Churches They will not endure that Luther should be thought to draw water out of any other Cisterne but out of the Fountaine of liuing water the Scriptures Wicklef indeed saith Ioachimus was instructed by the Waldenses and Hus by Wicklef but Luther receiued his doctrine neither from Hus nor Wicklef but was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 taught of himselfe out of Scriptures This preeminency all Protestants doe not willingly grant to Luther Zuinglius and Pellicanus and Vtenboius and your owne Alfonsus à Castro seeme to make others as ready forward at that time as Luther And indeed whether Luther set Zuinglius or Zuinglius Luther first a-work or whether the Spirit of God stird vp both their spirits at the same instant to set to that noble work of repairing and reforming Gods Temple I hold it needlesse to define Let Luther and Zuinglius and many other their contemporaries and fellow-workmen in that great work shine as so many precious stones in the foundation of the reformed Churches Ne sit primus nec vel imus quispiam Will it follow that because Luther was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and did not tind his candle at another mans light therefore there was no visible Protestant at that time but hee It will follow say you because Morgenst addeth that It is manifest to the whole world that before Luther's time all Churches were ouerwhelmed with more then Cymerian darknesse And you adde also to Morgenst fiue other corroboratory testimonies of Caluin Bucer Beza Iewell and Perkins whereunto after I haue giuen a direct and particular answer I will dismisse you Master FISHER And lest this may bee thought to haue beene onely the conceit of Luther and Lutherans who yet could better tell then D. Featly D. White and such other new Masters I will adde heereunto what is said first by Caluin who doth acknowledge that in this Lutheran reformation there was made a discession or departure from all the world Secondly by Bucer who calleth Luther the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine Thirdly by Beza a principall Caluinist who teacheth that at this time ordinary vocation of the Church-men was no where extant and consequently teacheth that there was at that time no visible Church and so if any Church at all it was onely inuisible as is affirmed euen by our owne English Protestant Diuines namely Master Iewel who saith The truth was vnknowne and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Viderick Zuinglius first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospell and M. Perkins who saith Wee say that before the daies of Luther for the space of many hundred yeeres an vniuersall Apostasie ouer-spred the whole face of the earth and that our Protestant Church was not visible to the world Doctor FEATLY When Caluin saith There was a departure made from all the world and Morgenst That
loquuntur tum nihil aqué atque sauctorum maiest as biblioruÌ„ foedissimè violata 〈…〉 quid causa a fuit vt Euangelium Mathaei Acta resigerent Apostolica Desperatio c. Quid 〈◊〉 vt omnes Pauli repudiarent Epistolas Desperatiâ— I may adde following his tune Quid Piggiâ— Hosio Lyndano quid Stapletono Bellarmino c Whereas there are many things which proclaime our Aduersaries distrust of their cause so nothing so much as their profane violating of the Maiesty of holy Scripture What was the cause that the Manichees repeale the Gospell of Saint Mathew and the Acts of the Apostles Desperation What was the cause that the Ebionites reiected all the Epistles of Saint Paul Desperation I may goe on following the same note and tune and say What is the cause that Ludouicus cals the Scriptures Dead inke Desperation What is the cause that the Bishop of Poictiers stiles it in like maner rem inanimem et â—â—tam a thing without life and dumb Desperation What is the cause that Piggius Ecehius 〈◊〉 Pereonius Norris diuers others so much detract from the authority and sufficiency and obscure the excellencie of Scripture by terming it Nasum cereum Euangelium nigrum Theologiam atramentariam Lesbiam regulam a Nose of waxe a black Gospell inkie Diuinity a Lesbian rule Desperation They appeale from Scripture vnder pretence that it is an imperfect rule and dumbe Iudge and therefore refuse to be tryed by it in the points of difference betweene vs why because that if they should referre the ending of all Controuersies to Scripture and put themselues on Christ and his Apostles they soon knowe what would become of them and their cause The eightth Assertion The paucitie of right Beleeuers and obscurity and latencie of the true Church protesting against the corruption and idolatry in the later ages therof is most clearely foretold in Scripture First by our Sauiour When the Sonne of man commeth shall he finde faith on the earth Maldonat the Iesuite answereth Vix fideminueniet He shall scarce finde faith False Christs and false prophets shall arise and shall seduce many yea they shall do signes and wonders and seduce if it were possible the Elect. Secondly by Saint Paul the Spirit speaketh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 exertè expresly that in the latter dayes some shall fall from the faith And in the second to the Thes. 1. There shall be a falling away first Thirdly by Saint Iohn After a thousand yeers Satan must bee loosed a little season And The taile of the Dragon drew the third part of the Starres of Heauen And All the world wondred after the Beast and they worshipped the Beast saying Who is like vnto the Beast c. All that dwell vpon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the Booke of Life c. All nations haue drunke of the wine of the wrath of her fornications c. And no maruell that the true seruants of God were reduced to such a paucity when the diuell and Antichrist set all their forces against them The Serpent casts out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman that hee might cause hâ—r to be caried away of the flood I might alledge many pregnant testimonies both out of the antient Fathers the learned Papists also of later time for the blacke and gloomie darke and dismall dayes of the Church vnder the last and greatest persecution by Antichrist But Saint Austens testimony is so cleere for the obscurity and latency of the Church that I need adde no more Ecclesia est Sol Luna et Stellae quando Sol obscurabitur et Luna non dabit lucem suam et Stellae cadent de coelo Ecclesia non apparebit impijs vltra modum saeuientibus The Church is Sunne Moone and Starres when the Sunne shall be darkned and the Moone shall not giue her light and the Starres shall fall from heauen the Church shall not appeare the wicked raging against her without all measure Mee thinks I heare our aduersaries say What makes this obseruation for the Protestant Church or faith I answer Much euery way It furnisheth vs both with a strong defensiue weapon and offensiue also The defensiue may be thus framed That Church which hath beene persecuted massacred wasted and driuen to great extremity and reduced to a small number resembleth the true Church as the state thereof is described in her later Ages But the Protestant Church especially since the 1000 yeere after Christ hath beene persecuted massacred wasted and driuen to great extremity and reduced to a small number Therefore the Protestant Church in this respect resembleth the true Church and consequently her obscurity maketh rather for her then against her We may also on this Anuil shape an offensiue weapon in this manner The true Church in the later Ages thereof must be in great distresse and driuen to a narrow compasse The Popish Church hath not beene so Therefore the Popish Church is not the true Church For they make eminent Visibility and splendour a note of their Church If they answer that their Church vnder heathen and Arrian Emperors hath beene grieuously persecuted I reply First that those who suffered Martyrdome in those daies were rather our Martyrs then theirs because they sealed with their bloud the truth of Scripture-Doctrine and not of Popish traditions or additions Secondly those blessed Martyrs suffered in the first Ages of the Church long before the 1000 yeere in which Satan was let loose but wee speake of the persecutions of the true Church in her latter Ages Therefore when the Papists insultingly demand of vs Where appeared your Church in the Ages before Luther the best way to represse their insolency is to put a crosse interrogatorie to them Where did your Church lie hid When did it fly into the Wildernesse for the space of 1260 dayes When did the Beast with seuuen heads and tenne hornes push at it In the raigne of what Popes did the red Dragon cast a flood of waters to drowne her As for the predecessors of our faith and Standard-bearers of our Religion it appeareth vpon their owne records how the Whore of Babylon embrued her hands and died her garments scarlet-red in the blood of them persecuting and executing them vnder the names of Berengarians Lyonists Henricians Petrobrusians Albingenses Waldenses Wickleuists Thaborites Hussites Lutherans Caluinists and Hugonots and the like Heere see the craft of Satan and malice of Antichrist and his Ministers they wasâ—e the flock of Christ with bloudy slaughters and require of vs Where are those of our brethren whom they haue slaine They traduce vs for paucity whom they by their massacres haue brought to so small a number They vpbraid vs with those maymes and skarres which themselues haue giuen vs and put vs to produce those euidences which themselues haue burned and made away as shall appeare more at large hereafter The ninth Assertion
to bee justified by Antiquity that it was death to him to name them And therefore when hee comes to that part of the Conference he passeth away in an Homericall Cloud saying Heer D. Featly made an insolent Challenge But A. C. durst not set down so much as the words of the Challenge in particular lest his Catholique Disciples should be scandalized at it Secondly the Inuisibility of the Romish Church for many hundreds of yeeres after Christ may be inferred from the confessions of our learned Aduersaries Alfonsus confesseth for Indulgences Roffensis for Purgatory and Gregory de Valentia for Communion vnder one kinde that they were no part of the beleefe or practice of the ancient Church Verily I beleeue Alfonsus à Castro and Roffensis needed a pardon for so expresly professing the nouelty of Pardons and Indulgences Alfonsus his words are Multa sunt Posterioribus nota quae Vetustissimi Scriptores prorsus ignorârunt De Transubst antiatione rara in Antiquis mentio de Purgatorio ferè nulla Quid ergo miâ—um si ad hâ—nc modum contigerit de Indulgentijs vt apud Priscos nulla sit mentiâ— There are many things knowne to later Writers which the Ancients were altogether ignorant of There is seldome any mention of Transubstantiation among the Ancients almost none of Purgatory What maruell then if it so fall out with Indulgences that there should be no mention of them by the Ancients Roffensis strikes in Vnisons with him Cùm Purgatorium tam serò cognitum 〈◊〉 receptum vniuersae Ecclesiae fueriâ— quis iam de Iâ—â—â—lgentijs mirari possit Sith Purgatory hath been so lately knowne and receiued of the whole Church who can now wonder concerning Indulgences As for communion vnder one kind and depriuing the Laity of the Cup which Gelasius calleth Grande sacrilegium a great sacrilege that it was an abuse lately crept into the church we need no more pregnant testimony than Gregory de Valentia voluntarily affordeth vs 〈◊〉 negamus quâ—m vtraque species olim administrâ—â—â— sit vt apparet ex Paulo 1. Cor. 10. Cypriano Athanasio Hâ—eronymo c. We deny not that the Communion in ancient times was administred vnder both kindes as appeares out of Saint Paul Cyprian Athanasius Hierom c. and in his tenth Chapter Et quidem quando primùm vigere câ—pis consuetudo communicandi sub alterâ tantùm specie in aliquibus Ecclesiis minimè constat coepit autem 〈◊〉 câ—nsuetudo in Ecclesiâ Latinâ esse generalis non 〈◊〉 ante temporâ— Concilij Constantiensis And truely it appeares not when this custome of communicating vnder one kinde onely began in some Churches but it began not to be a generall custome in the Latine Church much before the Councell of Constance I will heere instance in one Particular more and That is the publique Seruice in an vnknown tongue which was brought into the Church by Pope Vitalian who as Wolphius sheweth brought-in the Latine Seruice and obtruded it to the whole Church precisely in the yeer 666 which is the number of the Name of the Beast in the Apocalypse I intreat the Reader to take speciall notice of it that Irenaeus findeth the numerall Letters 666 in the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Wolphius prooueth out of Popish Writers that this very yeer 666 the Latine Bishop Vitalianus commanded Latine Seruice in the whole Christian world And this may serue for the confirmation and illustration of the former sort of Arguments vsed by D. Featly in the Conference For the later which were Dicticall or demonstratiue partly drawne à priori from the cause and propounded in Syllogisticall Forme partly à posteriori from the effect and propounded in an Induction they march on in their owne strength and need no conuoy Some weak resistance hath been made by some stray Troops who are met withall in the precedent Remonstrance But now after fiue Moneths M. Fisher leuying all his forces biddeth them battell and proclaimeth it by his Herauld A. C. A Prooem to the Answer to the Conference WEE read a pleasant Story in 〈◊〉 of a fellow that beeing somewhat heauie took a brasse pot which hee had in his hand and put it vnder his head for a pillow and so laid him downe to sleepe but finding That his pillow some-what vneasie with all the wit he had he rose vp and filled it full of feathers and straw within and thereby thought he had made it much softer and took a nap vpon it If I should not apply this Story the intelligent Reader soon would You M. Fisher are the man who finding your former Answers vpon which you relyed in the Conference to bee very hard vncouth and not to be endured now in this your defense of them you as it were fill the brasse pot within with feathers and straw that is stuffe out and bumbaste your former Answers with verball distinctions impertinencies tautologies cauils and vntruthes for all the feathers and straw the pot is brasse still as hard as euer it was and for all your new qualifications and falsifications your former Answers are as harsh and vnsufferable as euer before so that hee needeth a brow of brasse that will rest or rely vpon them For example 1. About the beginning of the Conference you were driuen to these Soloecismes in Grammar to affirm that Two vtrums imply not two quaeres that whether the Church c. and whether the names c. make but one whether that the Copulatiue and coupleth nothing that these words It is not in the singular are to bee referred to that part of the question Whether names c. in the plurall To these absurd paradoxes in Grammar against all common sense you answer To cut off all needlesse wrangling about the Aduerb vtrum whether and the Copulatiâ—e et and as if Grammar-scholars had been disputing rather then graue Diuines who were not to stand on rigour of Grammar c. Belike graue Diuines are priuiledged to bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vnlettered vnchristcrost to vtter non-sense to speake false English at their pleasure as the Pope did false Latine when he said Fiatur for fiat in contemptum omnium Grammaticorum But as the Romane Grammarian told the Emperour who vsed an vncouth word Ciuitatem ab Imperatore hominibus dâ—ri posse verbis non posse that it was in the power of the Emperour to make men free of the City of Rome but not words so let mee tell you that the Pope may dispense with you for breaking the rules of your order in so much intermeddling as you doe in ciuil affaires but hee cannot dispense with you for breaking of Grammar Rules Priscian may lay his action against you in all 〈◊〉 there lies no prohibition in a case of this nature 2. You were driuen to these Soloecisâ—es in Logick First In a true Syllogisme to answer to the conclusion For which you would haue beene â—issed out of the Schooles in our Vniuersities Secondly
of Prague it appeares by those his words in Asser. articul 32. Iohannem Hus et Hieronymum viros catholicâ—s combusserunt haeretici ipsi Apostatae Antichristi discipuli they burnd Iohn Hus and Hierom both Catholique men they being themselues Heretiques and Apostataes and the disciples of Antichrist And in his first preface to some of the Epistles of Hus prefixed to the works of Hus In numero istorum operum sanctissimi Domini papae habetur et hoc quòd in Constantiensi Concilio optimum et pijssimum virum Iohannem Hus damnauit In the number of those workes of the holy Father the Pope this is one that in the Councell of Constance hee condemned Iohn Hus a man of singular worth and extraordinary piety And in the second preface Has Epistolas sancti Martyris Iohannis Hus c. These Epistles of the holy Martyr Iohn Hus And in his third Preface A fide dignis hominibus percepi Imperatorem Maximilianum de Iohanne Hus dicere solitum Hei hei secerunt bono illi viro iniuriam Et Erasmus Roter in primis libellis quos typis excusos adhuc mecum habeo manifestè scribit Iohannem Hus exustum quidem sed non conuictum esse Tale omni tempore bonorum virorum iudicium fuit quòd illata ei sit vis et iniuria Et paulò pòst porrò In confesso est attestantibus et aduersarijs quorum ipse nonnâ—llâ—s eosque magnos theologos audiui ante annos 30 fuisse 〈◊〉 excellenter doctum et eruditione atque doctrinâ antecellüisse omnibus Doctoribus in toto Conciliâ— Ego olim Erphordiae studij Theologiae tyro incidens in librum sermonum Iohannis Hus prae euriositate quadam incendebar desiderio cognoscendi quaenam dogmata haeresiarcha ille sparsisset cùm hic liber in publica Bibliothecâ ab incendio sernatuâ— esset â—itertâ— inter lâ—gendum obstupefactuâ— admiratione afficiebar propè incre dibili quam ob causam tandem exâ—â—â—â—s esset vir tantus in explicandâ et tractandâ scripturâ tam dexter et grauis c. I haue heard from men of credit that the Emperour Maximilian was wont to say of Iohn Hus Alas alas they did that good man wrong and Erasmus Roterodam in the first bookes which hee printed lying yet by me writeth that indeed Iohn Hus was burned but not conuicted This was the iudgement of learned men alwaies concerning Iohn Hus that great wrong and violence was offered vnto him For proofe whereof hee alleageth Doctor Staâ—pritius and Andrew Praule and in the end addeth moreouer It is a thing confessed euen by our Aduersaries themselues some of whom beeing great Diuines I heard 30 yeeres agoe that Iohn Hus was excellently learned and farre beyond all the Doctors in that Councell I my selfe when I was a young Student in Diuinity at Erford meeting with a booke of Sermons penn'd by Iohn Hus was inflamed with a desire of reading it thorow that I might know what were the heresies which this Arch-heretick broached This book was happily kept from burning lying hid among many other in the publique Library in the reading whereof I was amazed and could not sufficiently admire what the cause might be that so great a Clarke so expert and dexterous in expounding and handling Scripture should bee burned Thus you see how farre Luther was from detracting from any of his fore-runners to whom hee yeelded as ample a testimony for the Truth as they had yelded to the Truth And I desire the indifferent Reader to obserue how Iohn Hus his prophesie before his death was fulfilled in Luthers vindicating his doctrine and person Iohn Hus his words were which are yet to bee seene stamped in antient coyne currant among the Hussites Centum reuolutis annis c. After a hundred yeeres you shall answer God and mee and some affirme that hee added Iam Hus that is in the Bohemian Language Goose but there shall follow mee a Swan c. And indeed after a hundred yeeres that Swan appeared in the world which most sweetly beganne to record the pure notes of the Songs of Sion whose strong quill hath eternized Iohn Hus his innocencie of life and purity of Doctrine Master FISHER Wherefore the Lutheran Conradus Schlusenburg saith It is impudencie to say that many learned men in Germany and the like is of other countries before Luther did hold the doctrine of the Lutheran Gospell And another of them not onely saith in effect thus much but prooueth it by this Argument If there had beene right beleeuers that went before Luther in his office there had beene no need of a Lutheran reformation Another saith It is ridiculous to think that in the time before Luther any had the purity of doctrine and that Luther should receiue if from them and 〈◊〉 they from Luther considering saith hee it is manifest to the whole world that before Luthers time all Churches were ouer-whelmed with more then Câ—merian darknesse and that Luther was diuinely raised vp to discouer the same and to restore the light of true doctrine Doctor FEATLY'S Answer First I would haue you to know M. Fisher that I hold my self no way bound to giue an account of euery rayling or ouer-lashing Lutherans speech no more then you will vndertake to make good euery inuectiue of the secular Priests against the Iesuites such Writers of the petâ—y forme of little antiquity and lesse learning were not wont to be alledged in controuersies of moment in Diuinity But I perceiue by you M. Fisher that according to the Prouerb all is fish that commeth to your net If these three had ioyntly testified that for which you cite them yet their testimonies might soone bee blowne away by the conspiring breath of many Protestants of better rank then they Regius alledged by your owne Brerely testifyeth most expresly the contrary Dico fuisse ante Lutherum verae Religionis et qui cum Luthero per omnia consentires coetum Ecclesiasticum etsi à pontificijs non fuerit agnitus nec propter tyrannidem pontificium fortasse ostendi visibiliter potuerit I say that before Luther there was a companie professing the true Religion of the same beliefe with Luther although this company was not agnized by the Papists nor peraduenture could visibly be shewne or poynted at by reason of the Popish tyrannie Whitaker auowes Regius Our Church was then viz. in the Ages before Luther But it was not visible saith Bellarmine to weet in the Popish sense What then Will it follow that therefore it was not at all in the world By no meanes for it lay hid in the Desart Oâ—colampadius and Martin Bucers Letters to the Waldenses are extant in their works I might alledge the testimonies of Constance and Bullinger Vesembekius Viret Vigneaâ—s Caluin Beza Humfrey Fox Illyriâ—us and many other Protestants of higher rank then such sneakers as Schlusenburg or Myllius or Morgenst All the