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cause_n bishop_n church_n england_n 1,563 5 6.0318 4 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A85312 Of schism. Parochial congregations in England, and ordination by imposition of hands. Wherein Dr. Owen's discovery of the true nature of schism is briefly and friendly examined, together with Mr. Noyes of New England his arguments against imposition of hands in ordination. / By Giles Firmin, sometime of new England, now pastor of the Church at Shalford in Essex. Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697. 1658 (1658) Wing F958; Thomason E1819_1; ESTC R209761 90,499 170

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separation_n however_o i_o think_v there_o be_v as_o much_o cause_n to_o question_v their_o ordination_n who_o be_v ordain_v by_o the_o people_n when_o elder_n be_v present_a or_o with_o other_o only_o pray_v after_o election_n as_o there_o be_v to_o question_v ordination_n by_o a_o bishop_n and_o his_o clergy_n but_o what_o do_v our_o brethren_n cavil_v against_o that_o when_o they_o have_v election_n which_o be_v the_o essence_n of_o the_o call_n as_o themselves_o affirm_v i_o think_v god_n have_v witness_v for_o they_o that_o they_o be_v true_a minister_n in_o go_v forth_o with_o they_o and_o give_v such_o success_n to_o their_o ministry_n as_o i_o think_v our_o congregational_a brethren_n have_v not_o find_v since_o they_o come_v to_o question_n and_o cast_v off_o episcopal_a ordination_n if_o any_o do_v so_o i_o doubt_v if_o the_o congregational_a minister_n have_v no_o more_o member_n of_o their_o church_n then_o they_o have_v convert_v since_o they_o have_v so_o much_o cry_v down_o parish_n and_o episcopal_a ordination_n they_o will_v have_v very_o thin_a church_n i_o do_v not_o think_v the_o lord_n do_v it_o therefore_o because_o of_o their_o episcopal_a ordination_n yet_o i_o think_v the_o lord_n appear_v so_o much_o in_o those_o day_n over_o now_o he_o do_v in_o converting-work_n shall_v teach_v we_o much_o tenderness_n in_o these_o day_n and_o not_o to_o walk_v so_o high_o as_o some_o do_v if_o the_o objection_n be_v about_o the_o consent_n the_o election_n of_o the_o people_n declare_v it_o explicit_o and_o their_o constant_a attendance_n upon_o such_o a_o minister_n in_o all_o the_o ordinance_n of_o god_n declare_v their_o consent_n implicit_o no_o congregational_a divine_a make_v the_o form_n of_o a_o church_n to_o consist_v in_o the_o expliciteness_n of_o a_o covenant_n but_o affirm_v that_o a_o implicit_a covenant_n preserve_v the_o
minister_n who_o know_v they_o beside_o be_v illiterate_a and_o person_n who_o neither_o be_v ordain_v nor_o will_v be_v ordain_v nor_o i_o think_v will_v sober_a minister_n ever_o ordain_v they_o these_o thing_n be_v not_o secret_a but_o more_o public_o speak_v off_o then_o my_o book_n can_v publish_v whence_o their_o friend_n be_v grieve_v their_o enemy_n rejoice_v have_v cause_n they_o think_v to_o open_v their_o mouth_n against_o they_o and_o to_o vilify_v reformation_n beside_o the_o hindrance_n of_o union_n in_o the_o church_n chap._n ii_o concern_v imposition_n of_o hand_n in_o ordination_n although_o our_o divine_n have_v all_o i_o think_v unless_o a_o few_o rise_v up_o in_o our_o day_n agree_v in_o the_o necessity_n of_o ordination_n to_o a_o minister_n yet_o they_o have_v not_o all_o have_v the_o same_o thought_n about_o imposition_n of_o hand_n as_o if_o it_o be_v necessary_a to_o ordination_n most_o have_v agree_v in_o this_o that_o though_o they_o look_v on_o it_o as_o a_o ceremony_n a_o adjunct_n yet_o it_o ought_v to_o be_v practise_v because_o of_o the_o apostolical_a example_n our_o congregational_a brethren_n in_o essex_n cast_v it_o away_o and_o some_o cause_n i_o have_v to_o stand_v upon_o it_o because_o i_o therefore_o refuse_v ordination_n by_o they_o because_o they_o will_v not_o impose_v hand_n and_o so_o it_o be_v the_o long_a before_o i_o can_v be_v ordain_v if_o i_o do_v refuse_v upon_o insufficient_a ground_n i_o be_o sure_a the_o ground_n which_o be_v give_v to_o i_o for_o the_o contrary_n be_v very_o insufficient_a i_o lose_v the_o paper_n but_o meet_v with_o another_o manner_n of_o antagonist_n short_o after_o mr._n noyes_n a_o reverend_a divine_a and_o my_o dear_a friend_n of_o n._n england_n who_o have_v say_v more_o against_o it_o then_o i_o have_v as_o yet_o hear_v from_o these_o what_o any_o body_n else_o have_v say_v against_o it_o in_o writing_n i_o know_v not_o unless_o the_o author_n of_o the_o diatribe_n etc._n etc._n who_o that_o worthy_a divine_a doctor_n seaman_n have_v answer_v i_o cast_v my_o eye_n upon_o it_o long_o since_o but_o do_v not_o now_o remember_v any_o thing_n pro_n or_o con_n what_o there_o be_v say_v or_o in_o any_o other_o man_n what_o then_o i_o can_v gather_v from_o scripture_n and_o reason_n i_o shall_v humble_o offer_v to_o the_o reader_n and_o to_o mr._n noyes_n in_o answer_n to_o what_o he_o have_v say_v against_o it_o not_o many_o year_n since_o humane_a ceremony_n add_v to_o the_o worship_n of_o god_n how_o much_o trouble_n and_o misery_n they_o add_v to_o the_o church_n we_o have_v not_o yet_o forget_v man_n write_v and_o speak_v so_o far_o as_o they_o dare_v and_o suffer_v by_o reason_n of_o they_o man_n wit_n be_v now_o busy_v as_o much_o in_o throw_v out_o of_o god_n worship_n as_o they_o be_v in_o add_v why_o then_o we_o may_v not_o now_o stand_v up_o in_o desence_n of_o god_n ceremony_n if_o this_o be_v but_o a_o ceremony_n as_o they_o oppose_v man_n ceremony_n i_o know_v not_o come_v then_o to_o imposition_n etc._n etc._n let_v we_o hear_v a_o little_a what_o other_o man_n have_v say_v about_o it_o and_o first_o for_o great_a calvin_n who_o i_o hear_v allege_v against_o imposition_n which_o i_o a_o little_a wonder_v at_o know_v calvin_n have_v speak_v sufficient_o for_o it_o 1._o 16._o instit_fw-la l._n 4._o c._n 3._o s_o 16._o licet_fw-la nullum_fw-la extet_fw-la certum_fw-la praeceptum_fw-la de_fw-la manuum_fw-la impositione_n quia_fw-la tamen_fw-la fuisse_fw-la in_o perpetuo_fw-la usu_fw-la apostolis_n videmus_fw-la illa_fw-la tam_fw-la accurata_fw-la eorum_fw-la observatio_fw-la prae_fw-la cepti_fw-la vice_fw-la nobis_fw-la esse_fw-la debet_fw-la 2._o again_o impositionem_fw-la manuum_fw-la 20._o l._n 4._o c._n 14._o s_o 20._o qua_fw-la ecclesia_fw-la ministri_fw-la in_fw-la suum_fw-la munus_fw-la initiarentur_fw-la non_fw-la invitus_fw-la patior_fw-la vocari_fw-la sacramentum_fw-la 3._o again_o 16._o l._n 4._o c._n 2._o s_o 16._o et_fw-la certè_fw-la utile_fw-la est_fw-la ejusmodi_fw-la symbolo_fw-la ministerii_fw-la dignitatem_fw-la populo_fw-la commendari_fw-la etc._n etc._n praeterea_fw-la non_fw-la erit_fw-la inane_fw-la signum_fw-la si_fw-la in_o germanam_fw-la svam_fw-la originem_fw-la restitutum_fw-la fuerit_fw-la nam_fw-la si_fw-la nihil_fw-la frustra_fw-la spiritus_fw-la dei_fw-la in_o ecclesia_fw-la dei_fw-la instituit_fw-la hanc_fw-la ceremoniam_fw-la cum_fw-la ab_fw-la eo_fw-la profecta_fw-la sit_fw-la sentiemus_fw-la non_fw-la esse_fw-la inutilem_fw-la modo_fw-la in_o superstitiosum_fw-la usum_fw-la now_o vertatur_fw-la see_v he_o again_o l._n 4._o c._n 19_o s_o 31._o calvin_n judgement_n be_v clear_a with_o his_o reason_n for_o it_o chemnitius_n give_v we_o the_o judgement_n of_o the_o lutheran_n church_n say_v 221._o exam._n council_n trid._n p._n 221._o nec_fw-la manuum_fw-la impositionem_fw-la vocare_fw-la sacramentum_fw-la gravabimur_fw-la i_o omit_v austin_n who_o call_v it_o so_o long_o before_o they_o be_v bear_v in_o a_o large_a sense_n not_o the_o popish_a sense_n nos_fw-la uno_fw-la verbo_fw-la dicimus_fw-la si_fw-la per_fw-la sacramentum_fw-la jusjurandum_fw-la 321._o loc._n com._n p._n 321._o &_o religiosam_fw-la obstrictionem_fw-la intelligunt_fw-la sit_fw-la ordo_fw-la ipsorum_fw-la per_fw-la i_o licet_fw-la sacramentum_fw-la quale_fw-la veteribus_fw-la erat_fw-la sacramentum_fw-la militare_fw-la say_v musculus_fw-la walaeus_n say_v 473._o loc._n com._n l._n 1._o p._n 473._o in_o all_o the_o confession_n of_o their_o church_n except_o one_o or_o two_o it_o be_v require_v and_o because_o the_o apostle_n always_o use_v it_o and_o the_o apostle_n give_v that_o precept_n to_o tim._n 5.22_o not_o to_o lay_v on_o hand_n sudden_o we_o ought_v not_o to_o omit_v it_o because_o in_o that_o negative_a a_o affirmative_a be_v contain_v that_o he_o shall_v impose_v on_o worthy_a person_n where_o since_o by_o a_o synecdoche_n it_o be_v take_v for_o the_o election_n of_o a_o pastor_n certè_fw-la pro_fw-la ritu_fw-la vel_fw-la parte_fw-la essentiali_fw-la habenda_fw-la est_fw-la thus_o he_o from_o the_o same_o charge_n to_o timothy_n 74._o sur._n ch_n dis_n p._n 2._o p._n 74._o mr._n hooker_n say_v he_o be_v willing_a to_o follow_v the_o road_n when_o he_o have_v no_o constrain_a reason_n to_o go_v aside_o it_o seem_v this_o reverend_a man_n know_v no_o cause_n why_o imposition_n shall_v be_v lay_v aside_o the_o synod_n of_o new_a england_n say_v 9_o platf_n ch_n dis_n c._n 9_o church-officer_n ought_v to_o be_v ordain_v with_o imposition_n of_o hand_n here_o than_o we_o have_v the_o father_n papist_n lutheran_n calvinist_n episcopal_n classical_a congregational_a man_n the_o church_n general_o since_o the_o apostle_n day_n impose_v hand_n in_o ordination_n we_o must_v have_v strong_a reason_n as_o mr._n hooker_n say_v to_o lead_v we_o afide_fw-la from_o these_o church_n custom_n of_o the_o church_n paul_n use_v to_o make_v something_o of_o 1_o cor._n 11._o i_o think_v so_o shall_v we_o have_v especial_o such_o scripture-precedent_n go_v before_o they_o i_o look_v upon_o their_o practice_n as_o very_o weighty_a but_o i_o come_v to_o argument_n lay_v down_o first_o my_o position_n imposition_n of_o hand_n ought_v to_o be_v use_v in_o ordination_n arg._n 1._o that_o form_n of_o ordination_n which_o come_v near_a to_o the_o gospel-pattern_n aught_o to_o be_v use_v but_o imposition_n of_o hand_n in_o ordination_n be_v that_o form_n which_o come_v near_a to_o the_o gospel-pattern_n ergo_fw-la imposition_n of_o hand_n in_o ordination_n ought_v to_o be_v use_v the_o major_a i_o suppose_v can_v well_o be_v deny_v especial_o by_o those_o who_o in_o the_o bishop_n day_n use_v to_o cry_v out_o so_o much_o all_o thing_n must_v be_v make_v according_a to_o the_o pattern_n in_o the_o mount_n and_o why_o now_o i_o pray_v must_v not_o thing_n be_v do_v according_a to_o the_o pattern_n of_o the_o gospel_n what_o do_v you_o make_v of_o it_o that_o which_o you_o may_v follow_v or_o let_v alone_o as_o you_o please_v what_o be_v say_v against_o this_o i_o shall_v meet_v with_o anon_o for_o the_o minor_n bring_v we_o forth_o those_o rule_n or_o example_n which_o show_v that_o man_n may_v be_v ordain_v or_o be_v ordain_v without_o imposition_n of_o hand_n that_o church-officer_n be_v ordain_v with_o imposition_n the_o text_n be_v know_v as_o before_o mention_v arg._n 2._o if_o the_o gospel_n express_v the_o whole_a ordinance_n of_o ordination_n by_o imposition_n of_o hand_n than_o imposition_n of_o hand_n in_o ordination_n ought_v to_o be_v use_v but_o the_o antecedent_n be_v true_a ergo_fw-la the_o consequent_a be_v true_a the_o consequence_n be_v clear_a for_o why_o shall_v the_o apostle_n mention_n that_o which_o be_v but_o needless_a or_o at_o least_o but_o indifferent_a to_o set_v out_o a_o ordinance_n by_o obj._n but_o it_o be_v say_v obj._n this_o be_v no_o more_o than_o what_o paul_n say_v at_o another_o time_n for_o this_o cause_n i_o bow_v my_o knee_n etc._n etc._n meaning_n prayer_n a._n 1._o be_v it_o so_o yet_o this_o hinder_v not_o sol._n for_o
doctor_n have_v deliver_v concern_v schism_n though_o with_o a_o great_a part_n of_o it_o i_o be_o abundant_o man_n of_o more_o learning_n than_o i_o be_o may_v give_v more_o only_o this_o i_o i_o may_v and_o do_v add_v it_o be_v a_o trouble_n to_o i_o that_o i_o have_v cause_n in_o any_o point_n to_o appear_v cross_a to_o the_o doctor_n with_o who_o i_o have_v have_v so_o much_o inward_a familiarity_n who_o i_o have_v so_o entire_o love_v and_o honour_v and_o do_v still_o both_o honour_n and_o love_n chap._n ii_o concern_v the_o parochial_a congregation_n in_o england_n i_o take_v it_o for_o grant_v that_o our_o congregational_a brethren_n do_v look_v on_o the_o parochial_a congregation_n where_o they_o come_v and_o have_v gather_v church_n as_o true_a church_n before_o they_o come_v there_o and_o so_o do_v not_o lay_v new_a foundation_n or_o gather_v church_n where_o there_o be_v none_o before_o only_o the_o congregation_n be_v overgrow_v with_o person_n gross_o ignorant_a and_o scandalous_a for_o want_v of_o catechise_v and_o discipline_n they_o do_v segregate_v such_o person_n from_o church-communion_n till_o they_o get_v so_o much_o as_o may_v declare_v they_o to_o be_v visible_a saint_n but_o one_o of_o these_o minister_n tell_v i_o i_o be_o mistake_v if_o i_o be_v than_o i_o understand_v not_o our_o brethren_n all_o this_o while_n nor_o do_v i_o know_v when_o i_o shall_v for_o my_o part_n i_o have_v ever_o profess_v i_o look_v on_o the_o parochial_a congregation_n as_o a_o true_a church_n before_o i_o come_v to_o it_o though_o overgrow_a as_o before_o i_o say_v those_o who_o be_v here_o and_o elect_v i_o to_o be_v their_o officer_n i_o look_v on_o myself_o as_o have_v sufficient_a authority_n over_o they_o by_o their_o election_n those_o who_o have_v come_v into_o town_n since_o i_o do_v require_v their_o own_n of_o i_o for_o their_o officer_n know_v that_o government_n here_o be_v found_v upon_o consent_n and_o subjection_n to_o all_o ordinance_n if_o they_o demand_v the_o ordinance_n of_o i_o so_o far_o i_o go_v along_o with_o our_o brethren_n that_o many_o parochial_a congregation_n be_v true_a church_n i_o doubt_v not_o though_o the_o presbyterial_a brethren_n have_v not_o proceed_v so_o far_o as_o other_o have_v do_v and_o therefore_o the_o congregational_a brethren_n may_v safe_o have_v communion_n with_o they_o some_o thing_n let_v i_o premise_v and_o then_o i_o will_v give_v one_o argument_n or_o two_o 1._o the_o want_n of_o some_o ordinance_n in_o a_o church_n destroy_v not_o the_o truth_n of_o the_o church_n then_o there_o can_v be_v no_o homogeneal_a church_n our_o brethren_n i_o hope_v will_v not_o allow_v the_o fraternity_n be_v destitute_a of_o officer_n to_o baptize_v etc._n etc._n but_o yet_o a_o homogeneal_a church_n they_o maintain_v much_o may_v be_v speak_v here_o but_o i_o forbear_v ecclesiastical_a discipline_n which_o some_o allege_v as_o be_v want_v in_o these_o parochial_a church_n do_v not_o therefore_o deny_v they_o to_o be_v true_a church_n which_o yet_o in_o part_n they_o have_v for_o suspension_n it_o be_v well_o know_v the_o rod_n be_v not_o of_o the_o essence_n of_o the_o family_n though_o the_o child_n may_v do_v ill_a where_o it_o be_v want_v feast_n of_o tabernacle_n neh._n 8.17_o be_v long_o want_v 2._o a_o officer_n usurp_a power_n in_o a_o church_n do_v not_o destroy_v the_o truth_n of_o the_o church_n diotrephes_n take_v more_o than_o be_v due_a the_o bishop_n be_v but_o minister_n and_o do_v ministerial_a work_n if_o they_o take_v more_o power_n than_o the_o lord_n give_v they_o yet_o that_o do_v not_o hinder_v the_o truth_n of_o the_o church_n what_o shall_v be_v say_v then_o to_o the_o bishop_n in_o the_o primitve_n church_n i_o wish_v i_o have_v as_o much_o zeal_n and_o love_n to_o christ_n as_o they_o have_v 3._o though_o many_o member_n be_v corrupt_a in_o doctrine_n and_o manner_n yet_o they_o do_v not_o take_v away_o the_o truth_n of_o a_o church_n corinth_n have_v too_o many_o of_o these_o and_o the_o officer_n may_v be_v faulty_a in_o tolerate_v of_o they_o but_o yet_o a_o true_a church_n and_o i_o hardly_o think_v that_o paul_n will_v have_v refuse_v communion_n with_o the_o church_n i_o doubt_v not_o but_o other_o church_n also_o have_v bad_a member_n the_o church_n which_o live_v under_o heathenish_a persecution_n be_v true_a church_n yet_o there_o be_v foul_a scandalous_a sin_n report_v of_o some_o of_o the_o member_n 4._o reality_n of_o grace_n though_o desirable_a o_o very_a desirable_a yet_o be_v not_o absolute_o requisite_a to_o the_o make_n of_o a_o visible_a church_n though_o i_o think_v it_o be_v hard_o to_o find_v such_o a_o church_n yet_o i_o know_v not_o but_o according_a to_o the_o rule_v we_o must_v go_v by_o in_o admit_v of_o church-member_n there_o may_v be_v a_o true_a visible_a church_n where_o there_o be_v not_o one_o real_a true_a saint_n dare_v any_o congregational_a minister_n avouch_v the_o true_a grace_n of_o all_o the_o member_n of_o his_o church_n will_v any_o church_n excommunicate_v a_o person_n for_o want_n of_o true_a grace_n do_v the_o apostle_n when_o they_o admit_v member_n search_v narrow_o for_o the_o truth_n of_o grace_n 5._o i_o have_v almost_o say_v it_o be_v as_o great_a a_o fault_n to_o keep_v out_o visible_a repent_v believer_n willing_a to_o subject_a to_o all_o ordinance_n as_o it_o be_v to_o tolerate_v wicked_a person_n in_o a_o church_n if_o the_o presbyterial_a brethren_n be_v guilty_a of_o the_o latter_a the_o congregational_a be_v guilty_a of_o the_o former_a i_o think_v it_o as_o great_a a_o faultto_n sin_n against_o the_o lenity_n of_o christ_n as_o against_o the_o severity_n of_o christ_n it_o be_v true_a these_o wicked_a one_o be_v a_o dishonour_n to_o christ_n leaven_n to_o the_o lump_n but_o yet_o suspend_v from_o the_o lord_n supper_n and_o they_o have_v not_o that_o mean_v apply_v which_o may_v help_v to_o their_o soul_n salvation_n but_o it_o be_v that_o which_o these_o minister_n will_v glad_o reach_v if_o they_o can_v they_o allege_v the_o word_n of_o the_o apostle_n their_o authority_n be_v for_o edification_n not_o destruction_n on_o the_o other_o side_n to_o keep_v out_o those_o who_o visible_o appear_v like_o christian_n when_o man_n have_v power_n to_o take_v in_o be_v to_o hinder_v these_o from_o be_v leven_v with_o true_a grace_n a_o great_a offence_n to_o the_o godly_a discouragement_n of_o soul_n and_o magisterial_o to_o set_v up_o rule_n which_o the_o lord_n never_o appoint_v who_o blame_v bishop_n for_o set_v up_o their_o post_n by_o god_n post_n i_o know_v the_o word_n visible_a believer_n be_v a_o contentious_a word_n but_o i_o understand_v one_o plain_o thus_o here_o be_v one_o that_o have_v a_o competent_a knowledge_n of_o those_o ground_n which_o be_v essential_a to_o salvation_n and_o believe_v they_o his_o estate_n by_o nature_n he_o understand_v and_o profess_v he_o believe_v in_o the_o lord_n jesus_n for_o life_n and_o salvation_n his_o conversation_n do_v not_o confute_v his_o profession_n worship_v god_n in_o his_o family_n and_o subject_n to_o all_o christ_n ordinance_n for_o the_o private_a conference_n of_o christian_n and_o private_a fasting_n which_o sometime_o they_o have_v though_o this_o be_v desirable_a to_o have_v they_o frequent_v they_o yet_o these_o in_fw-la such_o a_o manner_n be_v freewill_n offering_n i_o dare_v not_o tie_v up_o man_n to_o these_o or_o else_o debar_v they_o if_o he_o have_v be_v scandalous_a he_o declare_v his_o repentance_n cordial_o so_o far_o as_o charity_n can_v judge_v and_o prove_v it_o by_o some_o time_n will_v the_o apostle_n have_v debar_v such_o a_o person_n from_o the_o church_n but_o i_o speak_v what_o i_o know_v person_n who_o go_v thus_o far_o and_o further_o can_v yet_o be_v admit_v to_o church-fellowship_n some_o will_v have_v we_o go_v to_o rev._n 21.15_o and_o rev._n 11.2_o to_o see_v the_o rule_n for_o church_n what_o they_o have_v draw_v from_o hence_o i_o know_v not_o i_o have_v bestow_v so_o much_o pain_n in_o read_v of_o man_n upon_o the_o revelation_n and_o find_v so_o little_a content_n in_o all_o that_o i_o read_v great_a hooker_n of_o n.e._n will_v say_v he_o will_v never_o forfeit_v his_o credit_n in_o undertake_v those_o scripture_n where_o he_o can_v not_o make_v demonstration_n that_o now_o i_o regard_v nothing_o which_o be_v say_v upon_o it_o one_o text_n which_o i_o observe_v as_o i_o be_v read_v through_o it_o in_o my_o course_n give_v i_o more_o settlement_n than_o all_o i_o have_v read_v but_o alas_o good_a man_n do_v they_o carry_v we_o to_o their_o symbolical_a divinity_n to_o prove_v what_o they_o will_v have_v this_o will_v not_o prevail_v with_o judicious_a man_n i_o think_v the_o apostolical_a practice_n must_v be_v our_o reed_n to_o measure_v by_o