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A18620 The state of the now-Romane Church Discussed by way of vindication of the Right Reuerend Father in God, the Lord Bishop of Exceter, from the weake cauills of Henry Burton. By H.C. Cholmley, Hugh, ca. 1574-1641. 1629 (1629) STC 5144; ESTC S107813 40,972 128

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his due as we say It is good therefore that all men be well aduised in this point in speaking of the Church of Rome Pro or contra as a true church or no it being a matter not to be maintained by finenesse of wit or quaint rhetoricall discourse but vpon sound ground substantiall demonstration Answer This is your anticipation wherein you answer a supposed obiection therby to free your selfe from fault in crying downe the truth and true visibility of the Church of Rome It is no fault say you because it is no vntruth But you know that is the question And besides haue you so soone forgotten your owne policy That though it were true yet the countenancing or pressing of it in these times might very well bee spared Can you imagine that in these lukewarme indifferent neutralizing dayes you shall not find enow that will take vp the bucklers against you will you giue the onset and bee faultlesse and shall they only that oppose you be the offenders there is no reason at all for that In a mutiny it is hard but both sides will bee found faulty well then Let the Deuill haue his due say you and so say I too yet it is good say you that all men be well aduised in this point c. Let this word stand Only I craue that it may not be taken for granted which you rhetorically beg of your friends that you haue the sound grounds and substantiall demonstrations and that wee haue nothing but finenesse of wit and quaint rhetoricall discourses and vpon these termes let the cause bee determined And so much for the quality of the question BVRTON Now for the more cleare and full yet briefe discussion of the point it shall suffice onely to answer such arguments as are vsed for it whereupon the positiue truth will easily be concluded Answer Now you come to the second argument of your Exordium by which you scrape acquaintance with your Readers which is a promise to handle this question well that is clearly fully and briefly to which end you thinke it sufficient to answer such arguments as are vsed against you But how you offend herein I haue shewed already BVRTON Wherein I must craue pardon hauing to deale in so weighty a cause and with such mighty Authors as haue already tanquam e Cathedra defined it But God forbid that the try all of truth should depend vpon the opinion of any mans person though neuer so great or esteemed in the opinion of the learned My brethren saith Saint Iames haue not the faith of our Lord Iesus Christ the Lord of glory with respect of persons And 〈…〉 Saint Augustine against Maximinus an Arrian Bishop said Nec ●u mihi Ariminense nec ego tibi Nicenum Concilium objiciam c. Answer This is the third argument taken from the condition of your person being so weake and vnworthy to deale in such a cause and with such Authors wherein first you craue pardon of your boldnes and after cleare your selfe of such imputations as may be laid to your charge For the former it is counted the part of an vnwise man to craue pardon of a fault when it is in his owne power not to offend If it bee a fault why would you runne into it if it be none why do you craue pardon But indeed it cannot be denied to be a great fault for any man to meddle in matters too high and with persons too great for him if Dauid Psalm 131. 1. and Siracides Ecclus 8. 1. say true For as Py●●acus counselled his friend in the case of mariage to doe as the ●●ies playing w th top scourge said one to another 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 T● tibi su 〈…〉 rem Take to thy selfe thy peere 〈…〉 is it good 〈◊〉 euery man to contend with his match and not to meddle with his betters vnlesse he will befoole himselfe in the end But it is the triall of truth you say and God forbid that should depend vpon the opinion of any mans person True But first a man must be sure of a warrant for his doing for euery man may not contend with his betters in triall of truth vpon his owne head Secondly he must not behaue himselfe lawe●ly as you do here saying they haue defined the contrary tanquam è Cathedra Else it may fall out as you say to the Papists pag. 24. that God forbid will not serue the turne neither will S. Iames who would not haue many mast 〈…〉 s speake for you nor Saint Augustine who contended with his fellow Bishop plead for you And so much for your petition BVRTON Nor let any man here impute presumption to the weakness or vnworthinesse of my person as though I tooke a pride to bee 〈…〉 edling with such high matters and wherein great ones are interessed Alas God knowes I take so little pride herein c. Answer Come wee now to your purgation wherein you cleare your selfe of pride and presumption by way of anticipation Some man perhaps would say Vbi dolor ibi digitus and that where men are guilty of greatest weaknesse there they make greatest preparation and that when a man cleares himselfe without an accuser Aliquid latet quod non patet But seeing you call God to witnes I had rather beleeue you then suspect you yet giue me leaue to tell you what I could say against you if I were disposed notwithstanding all you can say for your selfe to the contrary First Dauid vbi supra makes it an infallible note of pride to be exercised in matters and with persons of this quality Secondly many passages in this your second Viall to goe no further do send forth a ranke sauor of some such thing as first those words Though it were true that the Church of Rome were a true Church yet the countenanting or pressing it in these times might very well bee spared which are very high So those It is good for all men to be well aduised in this point it being a matter not to be maintained by finenesse of wit c. wherein you couertly praise your selfe and dispraise your aduersaries intollerably So those I must craue pardon hauing to deale with such Authors as haue already tanquam 〈◊〉 Cathedra defined the cause Insolent words Then those Cucullus non facit Monachum which is as much as if you had said A Rochet makes not a Bishop And those What a strange doctrine is this for a learned Doctor and more then so of the Church of England to teach Doth he not deserue to be the Popes white sonne for it which are words of reproach Finally those Now let the Reuerend Author iudge indifferentlie hauing well waighed the former reasons whether wee doe ill or no in taking this his saying ill or whether wee had not reason to haue expected an ingenuous Palinodie or Augustine like retraction rather then such an Apologie which whether it be rather to bee pitied then any vncharitablenesse in the
vnto righteousnesse by whose stripes we are healed Nay saith the Councell of Trent directly wee are iustified by our inherent righteousness and so our stripes are healed and not by the righteousnesse of Christ simply imputed Thefore come out of her my people Answer How the Councell is to bee vnderstood I haue shewed already and being so vnderstood there is no direct denyall of the foundation Therefore although Gods people must come out of Babylon yet not vpon this ground And so I conclude as I beganne Apply Iohn Barber and thou shalt haue a new payre of sizors For marke the argument The foundation is Iesus Christ came to saue sinners c. But the Councel of Trent saith We are so iustified that wee are also sanctified by inherent righteousnesse Ergo Come out of her my people Author Thus I wrote well neare twenty yeares agone without clamour without censure If any of you be otherwise minded I dare boldly say hee shall doe more wrong to his cause then to his aduersary I differ not from the iudgement of our best Orthodoxe and approuedly Classicall Diuines BVRTON Let not antiquity in the holding of an opinion prescribe against truth Opinions Ancient O that S. Ambrose his words alledged by our Reuerend Author might here take place Nullus pud or est ad meliora transire then I hope he will be otherwise minded then to say He that denyeth the Church of Rome to be a true Church or a true visible Church shall doe more wrong to his cause then to his aduersarie Then he will no longer stand vpon the iudgement of particular persons in a point wherein our Reuerend Mother Church of England hath in her publique doctrine resolued the contrary So shall our diuine Seneca partake also of great Saint Augustines praise while by an humble and ingenuous Retractation he shall both purge away the staine and put a more glorious lustre to his most sweet pious and for their kinde vnparalleld workes And for me a poore vnworthy Minister I hope his meeke and sweet spirit hauing well weighed my reasons and pitied my weaknesses will be pleased to excuse me of any transportation of zeale vnlesse herein I haue exceeded the bounds in presuming so farre vpon the patience of such a Reuerend Antistes of our Church But I trust he will not impute this to any arrogancy of spirit when it shall appeare it is to vindicate Christs truth and glorie against the Synagogue of the proud Antichrist Answer It is well obserued that this fellow hath a notable dexterity in dedicating Epistles before his Bookes and in Prefaces Digressions Epilogues and the like but that in his Tracts Discourses and Disputations he is as hungry and dry as Famine it selfe This as it is true in all his writings so especially in this as I hope I haue in good measure made it appeare by the premisses And for this his conclusion All the glozing thereof ●ends to obtaine two requests One that the Reuerend Author would be brought to humble himselfe to him in an ingenuous Retractation And the other that he would hold him excused for his presumption Both are vnreasonable vnlesse hee will take that for a Retractation which before hath beene tendred and for an excuse that he supposeth it ignorant arrogance rather then zeale that hath transported him He would strike an impression into the innocent soule of the Reuerend Author that he hath contracted some stain by this assertion That the Church of Rome is a true or truly visible Church And indeed it is too well knowne that such companions as he is haue for a long time taken vpon them to bee the Censors of all mens doings and to cry vp and downe euery mans credit and reputation at their pleasure But God bee praised he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 out of their gunshot for it is well knowne to God and man that all his courses from the cradle haue beene such that Fame her selfe may lay her hand vpon her mouth so as he need not endeauor to purge away any staine which they shall impute vnto him The close of his Aduertisement will so possesse the soules of all good and honest men that the strife of tongues shall neuer bee able to molest him Thus saith he in a desire to stand but so right as I am in all honest iudgments I haue made this speedy and true Apology beseeching all Readers in the feare of God before whose barre we shall once giue an account of all our ouerlashings to iudge wisely and vprightly of what I haue written In a word to do me but iustice in their opinions and when I beg it fauour FINIS Iudg. 6. 31. Psalme 137. 9. Reuel 18. 6. The want of skill to shun a shame Doth bring a man to mickle blame Reuel 18. 4. Rom. 9. 6. Ier. 51. 45. Heb. 3. 13. Gal. 4 16. * See the 7. Chap. of the same Sess.