Dioscorus as for diuer other faults so especially for excommunstating the Pope vvas depriued of Episcopall authority Act. 3. Besides they writ thus to Pope Leo. He exteÌ„deth his madnes against him vnto whom the custody of the vineyard is committed by our Sauiour and against thee who labourest to vnite the body of the Church Againe they desire that their decrees should be confirmed of the same Pope And Paschasinus saith that the Pope of Rome vvhichus head of all the Churches depriued him because as Lucentius addeth hee presumed to call a Councell vvithout the authority of the Apostolike Sea WHIT. pag. 302. This councell is so far from confirming the Popes supremacy that it plainly ouerthroweth it for though Pope Leo with all earnestnes opposed against the honor and dignity of the Bishop of Constantinople yet he obteinâ—â— of the Councell that degree of honor which he desired which he could not haue done if the Councell had acknovvledged the Popes supremacy Concerning Dioscorus he was depriued for many notable crimes as murther blasphemy against the Trinity burglary adultery and excommunicating the Pope and you make this last a speciall cause of his depriuation as though it were a more heinous crime then murther adultery and blasphemy Therein aduauncing your Pope as your manner is aboue the blessed Trinity The committing of the vineyard to Peter maketh nothing for your Pope who is not Peter nor any thing like him Proue that it was committed to the Pope and you say something The confirmation of the decrees was not a thing proper to the Pope but also appertained to the other Patriarckes and Metropolitanes yea to the Emperors Paschasinus and Lucentius accusing Dioscorus say not a word of the Popes supremacy although they were the Popes Legates And whereas he calleth Rome the head of all the Churches his meaning was that it was the first greatest and most famous Church Chalcedon that thereby you may proue that the chiefe honour is to be ascribed vnto the Bishop of the chiefe sea that is vnto Peter I graunt Campian that this sea in time past was had in the chiefe place of honour and I know very well that the chiefe dignitie was attributed to the Bishop of this sea the reason whereof you may easilie perceiue out of the selfe same Councell For this was not done by any commaundement of Christ that the Church of Rome should excell in dignitie all other Churches of the world but the Fathers testifie that the cause why that Citie was inuested with greater priuiledge than others was this because it was the chiefe seate of the Empire You may finde the words themselues in the same acte which you cite Act. 16. But if as you say the Church of Rome ought to haue the preheminence aboue all other Churches in the world in diuine authoritie what then ment the Chalcedonian Fathers to affirme that there were some prerogatiues graunted vnto that Church for this cause alone in that Rome was the head of the Empire and therefore they thought that the Bishop of that Citie which was the Empresse of the world was worthie of some more honour than others And this honour to speake of was onely this that the Bishop of Rome should haue the preheminence of place in Councels the prioritie of speech in deliuering his opinion and the precedence in rancke and place And thus neither doe we our selues now much enuie this honour to the Romane Bishop but that if so it please him he may enioy it so that he doe not because he hath the chiefe place imperiouslie tyranize ouer his brethren as he hath done for many ages and perswadeth himselfe that he may doe it lawfully But seeing it pleaseth you to obiect vnto vs the CouÌ„cel of Chalcedon that you may challenge the chiefe honor as due to your Bishop of the chiefe Sea before I proceed further I would gladly you should resolue me in this question why the f DVR This was not the iudgement of the whole CouÌ„cell but of certeine men Neither did the Constantinopolitanes require that their Sea should be of equall authority with the Sea of Rome but that it should haue the like soueraignty in Ecclesiasticall matters and obtainâ— the next place to it WHIT. pag. 306. This was the iudgment of the whole Councell except the Popes owne Legates Paschasinus Bonefacius and Lucentius who in vaine opposed for the decree runneth thus These things we all say these things please vs all And contrary to your assertion these Fathers decreed that the Bishop of Constantinople should be matched in equall priuiledge with the Bishop of Rome which equality of priuiledges cannot stand with the vnequality of authority Neither did prioritie of place proue that the Bishop of Rome had any priority of authoritie sâ—â—ing this was only for orders sake otherwise by the same reason the Bishop of ConstaÌ„tinople should haue had the like authority ouer the Bishop of Alexandriâ— because he sate aboue him Fathers of this Councell made the Sea of Constantinople equall to the Sea of Rome for so they decree and diffinitiuely determine that seeing great priuiledges were graunted to the Church of Rome in respect of the Empire of the citie they thought it a matter of great equity that the new Rome that was now graced with the Empire and Senate should enioy the same priuiledges which old Rome had done And although the Bishop of Rome did most earnestly contend and labour that the Bishop of Constantinople might not be made his equall yet he could not by his best meanes effect his desire but that the decree of the Councell preuailed which had equalised the Bishop of Constantinople with the Bishop of Rome And therefore me thinkes you haue but ill defended the honor and dignity of your Bishop when you alleadge the decree of that Councell Moreouer the Councell of g DVR The filth Canon of the Councell of Constantinople ascribed greater honor to the Romane Sea then to any other WHIT. pag. 311. This honor was only of precedence and place and not of authority as plainly appeareth in the words of the Councell it selfâ— Chap. â—8 and in that the like prerogatiue was graunted in the next place to the Bishop of Constantinople and therefore by the like reason he might â—rrogâ—â—â— authority ouer the whole Church Constantinople which you also cite Canon 5. decreed no other thing for the Romane Sea then that the Bishop of Constantinople should haue the prerogatiue of honor next to the Bishop of Rome And this we also confesse that in times past the Prouinces were so distributed that Rome had the chiefe Constantinople the next and so euery one in their owne order But what maketh that to this cause which we haue now in hand For this is not the honor which the Bishop of Rome challengeth vnto himselfe this not the height of power and maiestie which he so often arrogateth Ephes Conc. in Epist ad Nestor The Councell also of h DVR
of euils were rather increased then taken away DVR Yea but he hath shened his contrary iudgment vvriting his Cledonius WHIT. Nothing lesse but only hee affirmeth that he vvould subscribe to the Apollinarian heretikes if they could proue that they vvere receiued of the vvest Councell vvhich hee knevv they could not Nazianzene Nazianz. Epist. 4â— ad Procop. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should so vniustly iudge and so iniuriously write of them For he saith that he had deliberated with himselfe and fully resolued to auoid Episcopall Conuocations because he had neuer seene a good issue of any Synode Which howsoeuer it hath bin true of many which by reason of the ambition and busie medling of some haue not taken away auncient controuersies but rather haue sowed the seed of new contentions yet many Councels haue been approued and commended by their most wished euent Whereas therefore you appeale to Councels we will follow you in many in their most weighty censures and decrees for in all neither do you your selues iudge it necessary But let vs now heare you discoursing concerning Councels A waighty question say you concerning lawfull cereâ—â—â—ies was cleared in a Councell of the Apostles and Fldâ—rs assembled together The children beleeued their Parents and the Sheepe their Shephâ—ard commaunding in this forme of speech It bath pleased the holy Ghost and vs. Where you make mention of a Councell most excellent and aboue all exceptions in which nothing was done rashly peruersely and factiously as sometimes in other Councels it hath been accustomed but al things diuinely and by the authority of the holy Ghost himself and therfore if we did not beleeue this Councell we were vnworthy of the name either of children or of sheep This Councel resolued that important question concerning ceremonies and freed the neckes of Christians from that most grieuous yoke of Mosaicall rites whereby the greater cause of griefe is offered vs by you who haue imposed vpon the Church contrarie to the expresse commandement of this Councell another yoke much more intolerable then that of Moses For this is cleare and manifest that the ceremonies brought into the Church by you and imposed vpon the consciences of men are twice as many as those which in time past Moses by Gods expresse commaundement inioyned vnto the people of Israell August ad Ianuar. And this is that of which c DVR Angustine vvhen he vvrit this did not after your manner carpe at Ecclesiasticall ceremonies but shevveth that be vvould not haue them instituted at euery mans pleasure For in his first Epistle to Ianuariuâ— he thus vvriteth If the vvhole Church vse any of these it iâ— insolent madnes to dispute vvhether such a thing is to be done or no WHIT. pag. 296. Augustine condemneth the multitude of ceremonies in his time and vvould haue vs rest contented vvith those few ceremonies vvhich are commended vnto vs in the Scriptures Ad Ianuar. Epist 118. cap. 1. Epist. 119.19 His vvords vvhich you alleage I vvillinglie embrace for vve vse and esteeme those ceremonies vvhich all Churches haue receiued as necessary for order and comelinesse But of this kind yours are not neither can you vvrest those speeches concerning the ceremonies of the Church to approue your Traditions seeing the Church of Rome long since ceased to be the Church of Christ Augustine long agone complained namely that by the multitudes of ceremonies the state of Christians was become worse then the state of the Iewes themselues which if Augustine spake of the ceremonies of his time how much more would he haue thus complained had he seene the great multitudes which were afterwards added to them But if the Apostles and Elders according to the meaning iudgment of the holy Ghost did determine that those ceremonies which the Lord himselfe had ordeined were to be abolished how intolerable is your boldnes who contrary to the decree of this spirit and Councell haue obtruded vpon Christians your innumerable traditions and needles ceremonies Did the Lord therfore abolish his owne ceremonies that he might establish yours did he abrogaâ—â— a few that he might bring in a multitude did he ease vs of lighter that he might impose heauier Whereby it appeareth that the diuine institution of this Councel which as it was before all other in time so aboue all other in excellency is most wickedly by you violated And is it to be thought possible that you who haue demeaned your selues so impiously towards these Parents and Pastors will be more respectiue towards others Nay there is not any Councell which you haue not long ago trodden vnder feete so that euery one of you are infoulded in a thousand excoÌ„munications And dare you Campian notwithstanding make mention of Councels which if they were in any force surely you should no more be tolerated in the Church then Publicans and Pagans There followeth this say you for the rooting out of heresie the foure general Councels of the auncient Fathers which were of such strength and authority that a thousand yeares since they were had in singular account euen as Gods word it selfe And we likewise doe freely confesse that the authority of those foure Councels was good and profitable Luthe de Concil Reade what learned Luther hath writ of those foure generall Councels and so also you may know our iudgement of them Notwithstanding there is no reason why we should assent vnto Gregorie Gregor lib. 1. Epist 24. who professeth that he doth imbrace and reuerence these foure Councels as the foure bookes of the holy Gospell For this were rather to violate the Gospell then to reuerence the Councels Although as I take it Gregories meaning was that what was decreed and concluded in these foure Councels out of Gods word against Arriuâ— Euâ—â—onius Macedonius Nostorius Eutyches and Dioscâ—ruâ— that he firmely embraced and would not suffer these decreet which are approued by the Euangelicall writings and in which this impious heresie is condemned to be reuoked and repealed no more then the Gospell it selfe neither can I imagine that it was Gregories purpose to affirme this of all these Councels that the Councell of Nice Constantinâ—ple Ephesus and Chalcedâ—n were fully equall vnto the holy Gospell in authority and dignity And so we our selues do not doubt that those things which these Fathers haue determined against those heretikes before named concerning the consubstantiall subsistence of the Father and the Sonne of the diuinity of the holy Ghost of the one person of Christ in two natures are as true as the Gospel it selfe not because these Councels so iudged and concluded but because in the Gospell the selfe same doctrine of faith is deliuered Further you say That also iâ—â—â—r owne country by our Parliaments the same Councels retaine their auncient right It is true indeed that in these and all other things which they propound if they be consonant to the holy Scriptures they doe still retaine their auncient right and dignity But lest you should
hasted into the Gourt hauing no promise from the Prince to rest vpon But Campian flie you rather to the Indians that you may take a suruey of your Popes new Prouince for our most wise Prince desires no such guests but banisheth you as farre as she can from her But now at length you returne thither whence you haue digressed and gloriouslie conclude this poynt concerning Councels saying The generall Councels make all for me the first last and middle You haue gotten an easie and speedie victorie I am almost perswaded that you are become another Caesar Vâ—ni vidi vici I came I sawe I ouercame but this is not to dart your Iaueling which you say is looped for the purpose I see words as it were tied together with strings or rather franticke speeches but as yet I discerne no speare either a Iauelin or a thongue or strength or which I rather beleeue all these are wanting vnto you Surely we of the Vniuersities Campian doe greatly desire to trie how skilfully you haue learned to tosse your speare and we hope it will come to passe that you being pierced with our darts will at length know and acknowledge your audacious temeritie and slothfull ignorance of this fight EDMVND CAMPIAN The fifth Reason which is the Fathers AS that famous Sirname of Christians increased first in a Act. 1â— Antioch so b 1. Cor. 12. Ephes 4.1 Cor. 14. Doctors that is very deepe Diuines and Prophets that is most famous Preachers first flourished there Our Lord himselfe prouided for his flocke in time to come such a sort of c Matth. 13.23 Scribes and wise men as were experienced in the kingdome of God bringing forth both old new things that is hauing God still both in Christ and Moses in the new and old Testament How mischieuous an act is it to expel with rebuke these men which were giuen vs by God for a speciall benefit The Aduersarie hath * This is false for we neuer hissed out any learned scribe expelled them For what cause for that if they had stood vpright he of necessity had fallen downe So soone as I throughlie perceiued that without any more adoo I desired to make not that flourishing fight which the common sort of people vse when they contend one with another in the open streetes but that seuere and sharpe combate by which we buckle one with another in your Philosophy schooles foot by foot man by man close ioyned together If we may once come to the Fathers the field is fought the wager wonne on our side For they are all ours assure as Gregory the 13. is a most louing Father to all the Churches children For to d S. Dion Areo pag. de quo vide Adon Treu. in Martyrel Adon. Turon Syng Suid. Metap omit diuers places which here and there dispersed being gathered together out of the auncient writings of the Fathers do very fitly and plainelie fortifie our faith we haue their whole bookes which of set purpose do expresly and copiously paint out liuely that selfe same Euangelicall religion which wee maintaine What orders of heauenly powers what sacrifices what solomne rites doth that two-fold Hierarchy of the Martyr S. Denys make knowne vnto vs That matter touched c Coment in 1.13 17. Deut. Item in cap. â—ab Luther so nigh the quicke that he affirmed this blessed mans writings to be most like to dreames and most pernicious f Dial. 5. 11. Caussaeus an obscure vpstart in Fraunce following the steppes of his Father Luther blushed not to tearme this Apostle S. * This Denys is counterfeice and forged Denys borne in a noble countrie an old dotard g Cent. 2. cap. 10. Inst lib. 1. cap. 13 num 29. The Magdeburgeans which lately set forth the Ecclesiasticall historie in Centuries were greatly grieued at S. * This Ignatius is counterfeite Ignatius so was Caluin also Insomuch that these bench whistlers pried out certaine foule blemeshes and vnsauorie speeches in his Epistles In these mens conceits also S. Ireneus writ one foolish toy and S. Clement who was author of the booke called Stromatum yeelded out of his works cockle and dregges And the residue h Cent. 2. cap. 5. vide Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap. 10. Seqq. of the Fathers of this age which were in very deed * They were Apostolike men yet they did not commit to writing all the things the Apostles did Apostolike men left vnto their posteritie blasphemous and monstrous doctrine In i Lib. de Prascript contra Haâ— Tertullian they greedily catch at that fault which being told therof by vs they with vs also detest But let them call to mind the booke which he writ de Praescriptionibus wherwith the heretikes of our time had so sound a blow was neuer hither to reprehended by the Church How sufficientlie and euidently hath * This Hyppolitus is counterfeite Hyppolitus k Orat. de consum Secul Bishop of Portua foreshewed the raigne of Luthers heresies which was a strong pillar in Antichrists building And for that cause they call him amost childish scrible a masker That l Iuel c. causs Dial. 8. 11. criticall French man Caussaeus and the m Cent. 3. cap. 4. Magdeburgeans do call S. Cyprian who was the flower and honor of Africke a blocke head a man cast out of Gods sight a deprauer of the true doctrine of Penance why what hath he done he hath writ for sooth one booke of Virginity and another of those that are Relapsed and certaine treatises of the vnity of the Church yea such Epistles also vnto Cornelius Bishop of Rome that except this blessed Martyr be disgraced Peter Martyr the Vermillian and all his confeder aâ—s must bee taken for worse then adulternous Church-robbers And lest I should stand too long vpon particularties aft the Fathers of that age are n Cent. 3. cap. 4. generally * This is false for none doe condemne or reiect the Fathers of this age condemned as men that haue corrupted wonderfully the sincere doctrine of Penance Hoâ— I pray you the Austerity for sooth of the o Canones Poenitentiâ— veâ—eres Canons which at that time was vsed doth highly displease this plausible sect which are fitter for Chambers then for Churches and is accustomed to tickle sensuall eares and to so â—cushions to euery elbow wherein I say wherein hath the next age offended forsooth S. Chrysostome and other Fathers of that time haue fouly darkened iustification by faith only S. Gregory Nazianzen whom auncient writers for honor sake haue Sirnamed Theologus 1. the Diuine by Caussaeus iudgement was but a q Dia. 6.7.8 brabler and knew not what to say S. Ambrose was bewitched of an euill spirit S. r Beza in Act. Apost ca. 23. Stancha li. de Trin. Hierome is as * This which concerneth S. Hierome is all false deeply damned in hell as the diuell himselfe
would follow that God himselfe the author of nature is culpable And so proceedeth vtterly denying that he had any purpose in those bookes to speake of that will which is made free by Gods grace And whatsoeuer in these books passed his pen which seemed to fauour the Pellegians then Patrons of freewill as you are now all that he carefully collecteth out of the whole worke and cleareth it from their cauils Haue we any cause to be offended with Augustine which in this question is not against vs And that you may plainly perceiue how indiscreetly you alledged these bookes of free-will marke what hee writeth of the will of man in those same bookes n DVR Wherto tendeth this but to bewray your ignorāce all Catholikes beleeue that the will of man though free is able to do nothing to merit heauen by but by the grace of God And you are ignorant that the freedome of will consisteth in this that by no necessitie it is carried to either part WHIT. pag. 382. Pelagians in former time beleeued as much But as Pelagius affirmed that the will was only helped with grace and not made good by grace so you teach that no new will is infused but the natural is helped and as it were vnloosed by grace which is not much from Pelagianisme for both of you defend that the liberty of wil remaineth in mans corrupt nature that it need not be giuen him from aboue but only by the helpe of grace to be drawne out of certeine difficulties in which the corruption of sinne had left it And as for my ignorance I confesse it and thinke it more learned then your knowledge for if those who do things necessarily do them not freely then neither God nor the diuel worketh not freely for God worketh well and the diuell euill necessarily So you see necessity is not opposed to freewill for not necessity but force and compulsion taketh away the freedome of the will Hold thou fast saith Augustine this principall of piety Delibere Arbit 61.2 cap. 20. that no good thing happens vnto thee either when thou thinkest or vnderstandest or any way imaginest which is not from God And this was Augustines constant opinion of freewill after that being stirred by the Pellagians he throughly vnderstood the question viz. that he iudged it to be vtterly lost and gone o DVR The meaning of the place is this that man so lost his freewill that be lost himselfe yet so as no man in his right wits will deny but he is a man still WHIT. pag. 384. You graunt as much as we desire for as man lost himselfe and yet remained a man but not such as he was good iust holy indued with perfection but cleane changed so the free will of man was lost not that no wil remained but that it was changed from good to euill for we say not there is remaining no freewill at all but no good wil as we affirme not there is no man at all remaining but no good man Man saith he by abusing his free-will lost both it and himselfe Enchir. 3. But yet further you vrge Augustine against vs for say you they that make their captious deuises the rule of their faith must not they bee offended with Augustine which hath an excellent Epistle against Manicheus An Epistle Campian do you call it it was euer accounted a booke but what is there in that Epistle as you call it against vs in which he professeth himselfe to agree with Antiquity vnity perpetuall succession and with that Church which alone amongst so many heresies hath attained vnto the name Catholike by prescription We also agree with that Church which hath all these And yet to these must be added as Augustine saith in the same place sincere wisdome and truth else all the other bind vs not for they are of no value without that wisdome but this wisdome and truth though without these is of it selfe to bee preserred before all things so saith Augustine Cont. Fundam cap. 4. if the truth appeare manifestly so as it cannot be doubted of it alone is more to be esteemed then p DVR Augustine affirmeth that these cannot be without the truth WHIT. pag. 387. Nay Augustine sheweth the contrarie for if truth cannot be separated from these he had spoken very vnfitly when he said he preferred the truth before all these If you can take or rightly challenge the possessiō of truth in the next place you may inquire of Antiquity Vnity Succession all those reasons that keepe me in the Catholike Church Thus then Augustine setteth more by the truth it selfe alone and sincere wisdome then all those things you mention Antiquity Vnity Succession and we perceiuing this truth and wisdome so manifestly in our Churches that none that will see the truth can doubt whether we hold the truth or no do willingly giue you free liberty to bragge whilest you list of antiquity vnity succession without the truth There is then as you see no cause why we should be angry with Augustine either now or before But at length you leaue Augustine and call out Optatus Bishop of Miletum of whom you say you desire to know what our opinion is I verily thinke he was a good Father and very like vnto Augustine and I take the things to be true which many worthy men haue said in his commendation But he disproued the Donatists by the communion of the Catholike Church Why should he not or what doth that cōcerne vs Augustine also obserued the same course and it was a good motiue that the communion of the Church should be obiected to the schismaticall Donatists which seditiously without cause separated themselues from the Church But wee deny your Church to be Catholike and therefore you cannot thus conuince vs though Optatus might therby confute the Donatists It must first appeare that it is the Church before we can be conuicted of schisme The q DVR So indeed Caluin answereth but it will not serue your turne for Opratus proueth himself to be in the Catholike Church because he ioyned himselfe to Saint Peters chaire WHIT pag. 388. And what call you Peters chaire the externall seate or the succession of Bishops you shall neuer proue it and the contrary I cen easily obiect out of Optatus himselfe Optatus calleth Syritius Bishop of Rome his fellow and the companion of other Bishops who held a sound and Catholike iudgement With all those Syricius agreed in one society and fellowship by their letters sent one to another as witnesses of their consenting in doctrine and lawfull ordination Optatus then proueth that he was a Catholike because he kept the Catholike confession and coniunction with Syrrcius and other Bishops Finally his argument was good against the Donatists who did separate themselues from the communion of the Catholike Church while they consented not with these Churches where the doctrine of the Apostles and a lawfull ordination of Bishops did
Churches Apostasie out of these your owne Chronicles they are no secrets but such as any man that will reade and obserue may easilie discerne And since you call vs vnto Histories f DVR Two things here are of which you would persvvade the Reader one that the Fathers of the Councell allovved not that vvhich the Pope affected by his Legates another that the Legates did malitiously produce a forged Canon What vvould you doe if you could find any thing of vvaight in any storie against vs WHIT pag. 494. They are the things indeed wherein I would instruct the Reader and what can any storie afford vs more solide and perspicuous for whether you respect the aâ—â—bition and fraud not vsed in former times by the Bishops of Rome or the authority of the Councell or that famous sentence giuen against the Bishops of Rome there is no man so ignorant and vnexperienced but he will confesse that they enacted and decreed a great matter and of no smale importance I will put you in mind of one thing related in an auncient storie consider it well whether it touch your Pope or no and then answere fully concerning the whole matter A Councell was assembled in Africke of 217. Concil Carthag 6. cap. 3.1.7.9 Bishops whereof Augustine himselfe was one the glorie and starre of Africke I will set downe the story briefly Zozimus Bishop of Rome sent thither his Legates which should perswade the Fathers of Africke that appeales might be made to the Bishop of Rome from all other Bishops The Legates make relation hereof vnto the Fathers and withall produce a Canon of the Councell of Nice wherein the priuiledge was recorded the Fathers wonder at this new decree and answere the Legates that they neuer saw any such Canon in any copie Greeke or Latin and that as they thought the true and perfect copie of that Councell remained with them which Cecilianus Bishop of Carthage which was himselfe present at that Councell had brought into Africke notwithstaÌ„ding they determine to send to Constantinople Alexandria and Antioch such as might receiue the true and naturall copies from the Bishops of those cities The Popes Legates would faine haue stayed them from sending but could not Cyrill Bishop of Alexandria and Atticus of Constantinople deliuer vnto the messengers the copies with letters to the Fathers of Africk wherin they do auouch that those copies were most true and sincere Concil Afâ—â—c Can. 105. Then at length the forgery appeareth in the Canon of the Councell of Nice no such thing can be found so they writ to Celestine then Pope and command him to surcease from making any such claime euer after and not to send abroad his Collectors lest thereby they may seeme to bring the presumptuous smokie pride of the world into the Church of Christ The Pope for the time yeelded not voluntarily but perforce for an hundred yeeres after Boniface the second in an Epistle vnto Eulalius inueigheth bitterly against Aurelius Bishop of Carthage which was now President of the African Councell and affirmeth that hee and his fellowes whereof Augustine was the chiefe were all moued by the deuill to withstand the Church of Rome thus Pope Boniface censureth as schismatikes Aurelius of Carthage other the African Bishops yea and Augustine himselfe among the rest because they resisted the Bishop of Rome in that matter as for Eulalius then Bishop of Carthage he giueth him great thankes because he made friendship with the Church of Rome that is he willingly permitted the immediate power of the Bishop of Rome ouer the Church of Africke These things I haue related out of their truest records and of this kind I could rehearse many more so little cause haue you to promise your selfe much helpe out of Historie Hence may bee perceiued what the purpose and endeuour of the Bishops of Rome haue bin these many yeares viz. to make themselues Lords of all Churches which also at length they obtained But because you aske the question and desire answere when Rome lost her faith so much commended and what that which once was ceased to be I may truly affirme that though in many things she had made shipwracke of faith before yet theÌ„ did it begin to be the seate of Antichrist when Phocas the murderer granted vnto Boniface the third that the Church of Rome should be head of all Churches and the Bishop of Rome should be called Vniuersall Bishop I will not too curiously search into the moments of times a mischiefe creepeth priuily for a time vnespied of men But the common opinion which men conceiued of those times was that Gregory the great was the last good and the first ill Bishop of Rome He was no better then he should be and all that succeeded him were starke nought euery one striuing to goe beyond his predecessor in all lewdnes so that now a sincke of all wickednes hath violently burst into the Church and hath possessed all the parts therof You force me Campian to open the sores of your Church which I had rather not touch but you are so vnreasonable that you neither spare vs nor your selues Barnard who was the only religious man your Church had for many yeares how often and how grieuously doth he bewaile the most desperat estace of your Church g DVR Bernard speaketh not of the doctrine of the Church but of the manners of the vvicked and in the Church the euill men were euer mixed among the good WHIT. pag. 504. I wonder vvhat was in your mind when you confesse that the manners of your predecessors were such as he describeth both heere and ad Eugen. lib. 4. Amongst these you being their Pastor vvalke decked vvith much pretious apparell If I durst speaze it these are rather paâ—â—ors for diuels then for Christs sheepe Your Court vsually receiueth good men but maketh sevv good There the vvicked are not made better but the good farre worse A number of such places I could alledge out of him neither bewailâ—th lâ—ethe mixture of the bad as you say but the perishing of the good and the ruâ—ne of the Church A shamefull contagion spreaâ—â—â—h ouer the body of the whole Church Bernard in Cant. Ser. 33 De conuer Pauli the seruants of Christ serue Antichrist From the sole of the foote to the crowne of the head nothing is sound With these and the like speeches vsed Bernard to bewaile and complaine of the intolerable wickednes of your Church which he would neuer haue done without sufficient reason mouing thereunto Aeneas Syluius ad Casparem Schlik Aeneas Syluius afterwards Pope writeth that charity was waxed cold and faith vtterly gone and what manner of Church shall we iudge this to haue been when shee had lost both faith and charity But it may be you will say that he wrote this of malice vnto the Church and that after hee changing his opinion when of Aeneas he was made Pius for that was euer his vsuall speech Cast
orphanorum Tu leuamen oppressorum Medicamen infirmorum Omnibus es omnia That is to say Thou blessed Virgin Marie art the infallible l DVR Saint Paul calleth the Thessalonians his hope 1. Thess 2.19 WHIT. pag. 796. But hee neuer put his trust in nor called vpon them as you doe the Virgin Marie hee called them his hope because he receiued great hope and ioy by his labours in their conuersion You make the Virgin an instrument of our saluation and therefore you trust in her but the Scriptures teach euery where to trust in God and Christ only As Psal 71.3 Ier. 17.5.7 1. Tim. 1.1 and 1. Pet. 1.21 hope of such as are in miserie the true mother of Orphanes Thou art the consolation of such as be oppressed the medicine of such as bee diseased Thou art all m DVR The sentence of the Catholike Church hath no vvhere alloued this but if it had it might be conueniently defended WHIT pag. 797. Duraeus can conueniently expound that which most absurdly taketh the office of reâ—eÌ„ption froÌ„ Christ and giueth it to the Virgin Mary in all to all men or in all necessities and other such like abominable speeches and full of strange blasphemie If happily you thinke our reproouing of these things be but some fighting with a shadow then doe you no more respect the glorie of God than the shadow of an Asse The second error in disputation wherewith you charge vs Logomachia is that wee often vse Logomachia which is when the sense is neglected and men contend about the word I vnderstand it well but which bee those our faults committed in this kinde Can you finde vs say they the Masse or Purgatorie in the Scriptures And is not this our demaund reasonable For where should these be found rather than in the Scriptures There was nothing wont to be accounted more holy than the Masse and there could nothing be inuented more gainfull than Purgatorie that neither of these now at last should be found in the Scriptures certainly it may well seeme a very strange and vnreasonable thing Belike then say you Trinitas the Trinitie Homousios coessentiall Persona a person are no where in the Bible because these very termes are not to be found there Neither say we so Campian nor will it follow at all hereupon and these things be altogether vnequally compared For albeit these very termes are not in Scriptures Epiphan contra Semiarian l. 3 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet the matter it selfe and the sense as Epiphanius writeth commeth to hand in all places and is easily euery where to bee found But your n DVR Did you neuer reade these vvords of Christ in his last Supper this is my body WHIT. pag. 799. Yea but Christ ordeined then a SacrameÌ„t not a sacrifice he offered himselfe a sacrifice only once vpon the Crosse Heb 9 10. not in his last Supper except you will say he died then also vvhich he must haue done to make it a sacrifice but he was then aliue it were most absurd to say he was aliue and dead at one time which he needs must be both then and in al your Masses if there be any sacrifice in the Masse at all Againe externall sacrifices as you say your Masse is are subiect to the sight outward senses but no man euer saw Christ to be sacrificed either in the Supper or in the Masse Therefore there is none neither in the one nor in the other DVR Jt vvas a sacrifice for Christ vvas really conteined vnder those former of bread and vvine and so the Masse is novv an vnbloodie sacrifice WHIT. pag. 801. You cannot prooue him to be so present there as you teach by no Scripture and if he were yet that was not therefore a sacrifice except you will haue his reall being in the Virgins wombe also to be a sacrifice in which he was conteined As for your vnbloody propitiatorie sacrifice first it is absurd for to sacrifice killeth a bodie but your Transubstantiation maketh a bodie secondly it hath no word of God for it thirdly it is needlesse Christs sacrifice being perfect fourthly Christ ordained that supper in memorie of his sacrifice not to be it selfe a sacrifice WHIT. pag. â—03 DVR Many of the Fathers call the Eucharist by the name of sacrifice WHIT. pag 805. Not because it is that same which Christ offered as you teach but because it is a memoriall and Sacrament of it DVR Purgatorie is most plainely prooued by the fact of Iudas Machabaeus in the second booke and 12. chapter WHIT. pag. 806. Those bookes are not Canonicall Scripture neither doth that act prooue a Purgatorie by your owne doctrine who say those that die in deadly sinne as those did there mentioned goe to hell and not to Purgatorie Masse and Purgatorie are not in this manner in the Scriptures seeing neither the names nor the things themselues any where do appeare yea they are plainly against the Scriptures For what else is either the Masse than as * Bustum coenae Dominica an empty sepulchre where is onely the title of the Lords Supper or what is Purgatorie more than a shamelesse merchandise of soules and an intolerable contempt against the blood of Christ Wherefore this is not a trisling contention about words but a most waightie one about matters of moment except peraduenture you make account of the Masse and Purgatorie not to bee matters of moment but words of Arte only As for the name o DVR The office of a Presbyter or Elder in the Gospell is the same that the Priests office vvas in the Lavve WHIT. pag. 807. It is not so for if the office did remaine why should the name be changed for Elders are neuer called Priests in the new Testament And there be ruling Elders in the Church which labour not in the Ministerie of the word and Sacraments as the Priests did Presbyter and Sacrament it is appropriated from the common signification to some certaine and particular things as likewise many other names are to wit Ecclesia the Church Episcopus a Bishop Apostolus an Apostle Diaâ—onus a Deacon and these names wee willingly vse but so that wee carefully shunne their impertinent significations Neither was that indeede sufficient cause why you should register Matrimonie in the catalogue of Sacraments because S. Paul wrote thus Sacramentum hoc magnum Eph. 5. This is a great mysterie For in that place Sacramentum is vsed in a large signification for any mysterie not for that ceremony which may properly be called a Sacrament As for that counsell of Thomas Aquinas we doe very well approue it The third head Homonymia or kinde of deceitfull disputation which you say we vsually erre in is Homonymia equiuocation or a mistaking the sense of words whereof you propound two examples For say you we both confound the order of Priests because S. Iohn hath tearmed vs all Priests and also abolish choice of
2. cap. 35. whom they vsually called Atheist but an other Aetius the likenes of the names deceiued you To that you obiected concerning Vigilantius and Iouinian an answere is formerly giuen a DVR You speake vvitâ—ilie but you must of necessity do the one WHIT. pag. 884. If they haue defended any thing against the Scriptures they are heretikes but if not they cannot bee condemned by the iudgement of any Church for my part I neither meane to defend them nor can I greatly accuse thâ—m If they were hereticks conuince them of some error they held against the scriptures Hieromes passions can make no man an heretick Now you bring in the swarme of hereticks Macedonians PelagiaÌ„s Nestorians Eutychians the Mâ—â—otholites and Iconomachs These first we hate as hell it selfe those last haue committed nothing deseruing the name of hereticks To set vp and worship Images is hereticall but not to ouerthrow them What you iudge touching Luther and Caluinâ— is nothing materiall whiles they liued they nothing regarded you now they are dead they despise you what will you conclude at length from this hereticall companie Aâ—â— these you say forsooke the gouerment of your Church and were ouerthrowne by them Nay Campian these were your forefathers and you their progenie and successors for your monster of Poperie hath been hatched by the impure commixtion of all heresies But you now appeare out of hell Lands and are come to land and wheresoeuer you cast your eyes or thoughts All is your own as you say all subiect themselues and subscribe to your religion Me thinks I see that brainsick Merchant who standing by the sea and beholding the ships cried out all he saw was his owne otherwise such senselesse dreames could not proceed but from a wit and iudgement exceedingly weakned Sedes Apostolica For say you the Romane succession witnesseth in which Church as Austen speaketh the Primacie of the Apostolike chaire hath alwaies had the preeminence Many causes there were why speciall accompt in times past should be made of the church of Rome especially for that Rome was the seate of the Empire as approued in the Councell held at Constantinople Concil Constantinop 1. cap. 5. b DVR VVhy then may not he that is Bishop of this Church be ouer all other Bishops and so the Prince of Priests the chiefe Priest and supreame head of the rest WHIT. pag. 885. Because authoritie and dominion is not proper to them who are more excelleÌ„t then others which may bee shewed by infinite examples Who can be ignorant that the tribe of Iudah was the chiefe the first and the Prince of the other tribes will it therefore follow that the head of the principall family in this tribe had authoritie ouer all other tribes Aristotle was accounted the prince of Philosophers Homer of Poets Hippocrates of Physitians Apelles of Painters did they therefore exercise authoritie ouer all the rest of the same profession So though for a long time together the church of Rome for many respects was excellent among the rest yet it neuer had domination and rule ouer the rest of the Churches of Christ I graunt therefore thaâ—â—his Church was accompted the supreme chiefe greatest and the principall preferred before other Churches Trow you hence to conclude the Bishop of Rome is the chiefe and principall Bishop or head of the Church Concil Carthag 3. cap. 26. Dist 99 prima sedis Austen himselfe forbid it in the Councell of Carthage viz. that the Bishop of the chiefe Sea should not be called Prince of Priests or any like title Although then the holy Fathers for diuers respects gaue the preheminence to the church of Rome yet â—â—d they neuer acknowledge c DVR This prohibition was giuen by the Fathers because they knew that aâ— the soueraignty of the Apostolike Chaire did euer flourish in the Romane Church so they did not doubt but the manner of the chiefe Priest did appertainâ— onely to the Bishop of Rome WHIT. pag. 885. Nay the prohâ—bition of the Councell did as well concerne the Bishop of Rome whom all acknowledge to be the Bishop of the chiefe seate as the Bishops of other Seas Therefore for the time he obeyed the decree of the Councell and was content with his names and refused to be called the soueraigne chiefe Priest that infinite pâ—â—â—â—â—â—â—ll authority which he now challengeth neither â—â—d other Apostolike Churches whether they were founded by the Apostles themselues or by some of their schollers yeeld any testimonie of truth to the church of Rome Heere you stick in a quagmire and â—â—e faine by intreatie to beg that which by strong reason you should prooue and cannot But you vrge further and recompt the Pastors of seuerall countries to whaâ— end I pray you The remainderâ— say you of the labours of all those that haue published the Gospell in all nations farrs and wide all present vnto vs this same religion which Catholâ—kes at this day professe What could be affirmed more weakely for the Greeians are opposite vnto you which vnto this time haue their succession of Bishops not interrupted And further the spyeâ— which you send in your new found lands haue found in the furthest coasts thereof many monuments of that faith which we mainteine Osâ—rius neither may you preferre vs before them at least afore all you ought to preferre the truth Aristot. as the Philosopher saith But if you thinke your Popes and other glorious titles more auncient then the Gospell what can you alleage why Christ should not denie you to belong to him seeing you value any thing more then him Heere you tell vs of Princes Princes Kings Câ—sars Emperours and make a goodly shew of names as your manner is At length you meÌ„tion our noble Queenâ— Elizabeth and will needs teach her her dutie But she Campian needs no such Masters â—say 48. or instructiors She knoweth her selfe to be the nursing mother of the Church and that by diuine dispensation and accordingly doth she with all watchfulnes and care procure the good thereof and labours by all possible diligence to preuent all dangers intended by you and your adherents You say of Caluine and these Princes 〈◊〉 you haue spoken thâ—◠〈◊〉 heauen can noâ— containe theÌ„ But it passeâ—h your skill to pronounce certainely hereof nay your Pope himselfe cannot with all his might pull Caluiâ—â— out of heauen not any of them whom Christ hath made witnesses of his truth As for you and your fellowes we wish you not the gallowes but saluation I desire to hope the best of you and I doubt not but you might attaine to the knowledge of the truth in controuersie betwixt vs if for the time you could lay aside all preiudicate opinions and consult with the word of God and the holy Fathers of the Church As for the societie of Iesus whereunto you are admitted it braggeth that it is wholie at the Popes dispensation and loues Gregory the 13.
suppose that we did euer attribute thus much to these Councels that we iudge all that to be necessarily embraced whatsoeuer they haue decreed heare you now what our Church hath thought and ordained of these generall Councels Councels not only may erre but also sometimes haue erred In the Artic of Religion Artic. 21. and that in these things which belong to the rule of piety and therfore whatsoeuer by them is decreed as necessary to saluation hath no vertus nor authority vnlesse it may be shewed that it is taken ouâ— of the holy Scriptures Cite you now these words and then contest as you call it your sweet couÌ„try And in like maÌ„ner this your most deare countrie in which you were borne brought vp and graced doth contest intreat and beseech you by all those things which are vnto you most sweeâ—e and best esteemed that you desist any more in this bâ—dde cause to be troublesome vnto her that you will noâ— corrupt her children with an impious and strange religion that you will make more preciouâ— account of her dignity then of a forraine enemie and that you would at length returne thither from whence you haue straâ—ed And surely you would not contemne this speech of your country if you could euen for a litle space lay aside that preiudicate opinion which you haue sucked from Rome and brought with you hither into England But let vs heare what is this your contestation If say you you will reâ—erence these fourâ— Councels you will chiefely honâ—r the Bishop of the chiefâ— Sâ—â— that is Peter And so do we ascribe great honour vnto Peter and that worthily neither doe we contend with you about him but this affirme that those things which were proper vnto Peter cannot in any wise appertaine to your Pope who was neuer like either Peter or Paul And in truth what madnes is this so insolently to bragge of Peters great vertues when in the meane time you cannot proue that your Popes are indued with any such Do you suppose that any man that is in his right wits will thinke that Peters faith piety and all the rest of his vertues haue bin deriued to your Pope by a lineall descent from so many other Popes of whom a great number were not men but monsters This doubtlesse is a grosse dotage and fit to be taken away Quouis helleboro dignum with the mad mans purge and as one saith for those diseases reprehension is the best maâ—â—â—r of cure Should I entitle your Gregoriâ— the 13. who now gouerneth at Rome with the name of Peter doth he teach doth he feed Christs sheepe surely he cannot Doth he performe the duty of an Apostle or of a Bishop nothing lesse How therfore doth he demeane himselfe Sitting in the Vatican he prouoketh to warre moueth seditions armeth subiects against their Princes and filleth the whole world with vproâ—â—â—â— Did Peter thus behaue himselfe is this to be Peter can you deny that these things be true and shall I then yeeld vnto him the like honor that is due to Peter being so vnlike him in conditions But let vs further examine your words You will say you chiefely honor the Bishop of the chiefe Sea that is Peter but by what Councell doe you proue that necessary you alleage the Councell of Nice Can. 6. In which there is not so much as any mention of the Bishop of the chiefe Sea or of Peter neither in truth could any thing be produced of greater force against your Bishop then that decree of Nicene Synode for it matcheth all Metropolitanes and Patriarkes in an equall ranke of honor with the Bishop of Rome neither doth it attribute any more to him then vnto the Metropolitanes of Antioch Alexandria and the rest of the other Prouinces If you please you shall heare the words of the Councell Concil Nicen Can. 6. d DVR This cause by you alleadged maketh much for establishing the authority of the Romane Sea ouer all Churches For vvhen as the Fathers to proue the authority of the Bishop of Alexandria alleage the custome of the Church of Rome they shew hereby that Alexandria dependeth vpon Rome as the mother Church froÌ„ which she hath all her authority And that this was their mind appeareth by the words of Paschasmus the Popes Legat in the Councell of Chalcedon is also proued by the 39. Canon translated out of Arabicke into Latin The same Fathers likevvise assembled at Sardis approued the Supremacy of the Romane Sea WHIT. pag. 299. Nothing could be alleadged more direct against the Romish Supremacy then this Canon wherin their own proper limits of iurisdiction are assigned to euery Metropolitane For if the Pope should rule ouer the whole Church it had bin absur'd to limit euery one their owne borders wherein they should haue supreame authority according to the custome of the Church of Rome Neither doth this proue the supremacy of the Romish Church because they alleadge her custome and example as you ignorantly inferre seeing an example may be taken aswell from an equall or inferiour as from a superious It is no maruell if Paschasinus being the Popes Legate spake for the supremacy of the Romane Sea neither is his testimony to be regarded being a party Your Arabicke Canon is meerely Arabicke and not Nicene for of this Councel there were only 20. Canons written in Greek and not in the Arabian tongue The Canon of the Councell of Sardis helpeth you not seeing the Councell of Africke testifieth that iâ— was counterfeite Let the ancient custome be in force which was in Aegypt Libya and Pentapolis that the Bishop of Alexandria haue the chiefe dignity ouer all these things because also this was the custome of the Bishop of Rome and in like manner at Antioch and in the rest of the Prouinces let the Primacy and authority be receiued vnto the Churches You see Campian I suppose that no extraordinary prerogatiue hath been giuen to the Bishop of Rome and that his Prouince and Iurisdiction hath been circumscribed within determined bounds and borders Ruffin lib. Decimâ— And after this same manner doth Ruffinus if you do not credit vs interpret this Canon This Auncient custome is obserued at Alexandria and in the citie of Rome that the Bishop of Alexandria take the charges of Aegypt and the Bishop of Rome of the Churches of the cities neire adioyning And therefore let the Bishop of Rome take care of the bordering Churches of the neighbour cities with which the Nicene Synode hath enioyned him to rest satisfied and hereafter let him not trouble himselfe with the care of our Churches which appertaine not vnto his charge And so you see that if you had been well aduised you would neuer haue mentioned this Councell Act. 4.16 But you adioyne also vnto this the Councell of e DVR The Councell of Chalcedon standeth so directly for the supremacy of the Romane Sea that you ca with no shifts auoid it For therein
Sleidanus Illyricus Kemnisius Caluinus Ioan. Iuellus Others haue spoken of it those things that are most true both how it was called how handled and how it was dismissed and therefore I will not goe about to refute your affections Let it enioy for me that credit and estimation which it can Although euery one knoweth thus much that it was not to bee esteemed a Councell of the whole Christian state An assemblie of certaine men but rather a Conuenticle of a few men running together into the same place There was there present a sort of sillâ—e Friers which did susteine the greatest part of the burthen by disputing writing and playing the Orators For as for the Bishops and chiefe Cardinals they busied their heads about other matters for which they were speciallie assembled But as I said let it be such as it was for I am not offended at your commendations And let the Bishops make their glorious bragges that they long abode in that schoole out of which as yet as farre as I know not many either learned diuines or good Pastors haue come You also vsher in Antonie of Prage greatly congratulating with himselfe for you would needs shew him some kindnes because he made you a Priest Well Campian was created Priest by Antony Archbishop of Prage surely I feare lest you trauelled too far to buy such base wares But now you may celebrate your Masses seeing you are shauen and annointed and made a Priest Moreouer you demaund exceedingly triumph why your Aduersaries called hither and secured by the caution of publike promise did not make all hast to come vnto it In which you are sufficiently answered in the Apoligie of our Church For what should wee doe there or to what end should we vndertake so long a iourney either that being mocked and abused we might returne home againe or being burned in the Councell we should pay for our rashnes For what place of disputation was left amongst those who had euery man plighted their faith to the Bishop of Rome had religiously bound themselues by oath that they would neuer either doe or say any thing againg his dignity and pleasure what therfore might be hoped for from these which might draw any to the disputation besides the * DVR Iohn Husse was not called by the Councell of Constance neither receiued from it any publike promise And whereas you say that it was decreed in this Councell that faith is not to be kept with heretikes it is false WHIT. pag. 352. The Emperour Sigismund gaue him his publike warrant which the Councel most dishonorably infringed And after they had put Husse to death contrary to publike promise they enacted a law that a promise made vnto heretikes by the Emperour or by any King or secular Prince should not hinder any Ecclesiasticall Iudges from proceeding against them according to law Concil Constant Sess 19. calamity of Iohn Husse of Bohemia and Hierome of Prage whom the Father 's burned in the Councell of Constance brought iust cause of feare And yet Husse came to the Councell trusting in the protection of a publike promise Yea but say you the Constantine Fathers made no promise and therefore did not breake any But Sigismonde the Emperor gaue his publike warrant vnto whom it was fit that he should giue credit Notwithstanding comming to the Councell he was presently apprehended and cast into prison and pleading his cause before the Councell he was condemned and burned although Sigismond stormed at it Neither did hee flie as you falsely report neither in truth could hee escape but thus this holy and innocent man was deuoured like a sheepe by furious wolues And what I pray you did the Emperors authoritie commandement or publike warrantize profit him The Emperor say you signed it but the state of Christendome greater than the Emperors did repeale it And who then can be safe if the Emperors beare no sway in the Councell Neither doth the horrible murther of Iohn Husse contrarie to a publike warrant of protection so much discourage vs from comming to your Councels as that decree published by the Councell it selfe That promise is not to be kept with Heretikes Should I then beleeue you who I know will keepe no promise If I doe surely I am worthy to perish after the same manner Hierome of Prage likewise came to the Councell of his owne accord and making publike profession of his faith was burned So that the case of these two than the which all Christendome at that time had not any more holy or learned shall remaine as a perpetuall monument of your treacherie and most horrible crueltie and as a notable caueat vnto all the godly to beware of you for the time to come Concerning Luther whom you cursed Frier call the hatred of God and men the hand and power of God himselfe so defended him that you could neuer hurt him For will was not wanting to you for the destruction of Luther but opportunitie But he was safe say you vpon the Emperors word neither in truth durst the Pope attempt Luthers death after the Emperor had promised him safetie For would Charles the fifth thinke you haue endured it It was not behoofefull for the Pope to haue attempted any thing whereby the Emperors faith might appeare falsified for Charles would neuer so easilie haue put vp such an indignitie as Sigismond had done in time past But say you they doe too much brag in corners in which when they haue but sounded three Greeke words they would seeme to be very wise They might perhaps seeme wise to you who scarcely as I suppose can sound three Greeke words They cannot as you say indure the light which would bring a Scholler into account and would recall him into some place of reckening and is this it Campian which you hunt after a name same places of account to be poynted at with the finger and to be thus spoken of This is the man aduanced to greatest grace excelling in worth and worthy place Doth this grieue you that you are not highly esteemed of and doe not sit in high place Well man proceede in your vertuous courses and goe forward in the way into the which you are entred to your great praise and there is good hope you may ascend vnto such an high place as you are worthie of But wheras you desire That the English Catholikes may obtaine a Patent of impunity if they loue the saluation of their soules surely you require a thing vniust vnequal For what liknes is there in this that learned men should assemble from all parts vnto a publike Councell and that Runnagates should be permitted to returne vnto their countrie We will say you with winged speed hast vnto the Court relying our selues vpon the Princes word And so indeed you safely may for if shee giue her word you may promise vnto your selues assured securitie And I the more easilie beleeue you speake the truth seeing some of you already haue
fellowes digged out of their graues to helpe you in your desperate cause heare me Campian that which Iewel then said most truly and confidently challenging you to the triall of sixe hundred yeares antiquity offering also to yeeld you the victory if you brought one plaine and manifest authority out of any Father or Councell that same we do all professe and promise and will surely performe it Twentie yeares are expired and not one of you hitherto could performe the condition if you perswade your selfe to haue more sufficiency hereunto then your masters before haue had why stay you why sit you still why discontinue you the defence of so good a cause But alas you are no body you haue read nothing you haue no strength answerable to such an endeuor The learned Humphrey did not taxe Iewel as if he had too liberally vndertaken for the Fathers or performed lesse then he promised but only that he had yeelded further vnto you then he needed and called backe the cause which was already determined by the Scriptures to the authorities of the Fathers which yet he did not as though he distrusted any thing the triall of Scriptures for hee knew that they were sufficient to refute all popish errors but that hereby he might beate downe that their insolent and most false bragge of antiquitie which preuailed with many You say further that you haue conferred sometimes familiarly with Toâ—y Matthew and wâ—â—led him to answere freely whether hee that read the Fathers diligently could bee of that part which â—e fauoured Although in priuate and familiar conference wee say many things which we would not haue further reported or dispersed yet I doubt not but the worthy Mathew gaue you such an answere as was both agreeable to the truth and fit for his iudgement and wisdome Wee must not in all things beleeue the Fathers nor doth our faith depend vpon their word Sometimes they haue erred and been the occasion of errors vnto others yet may we reade them by their truthes be more learned by the contrary more wary And this also thinketh Matthew Hutton that famous man whom you surmise to bee the only man amongst vs conuersant in the Fathers And this also is all our opinions After you haue thus finished your discourse you will now as you say without feare come into the battell and fight with vs. You are still telling vs of armies skirmishes warres campes and of your battailes but you should remember that the triall of warre is common to both sides and the issues of battailes vncerteine The and of warre lieth in the strength of armes not in the stoutnes of words EDMVND CAMPIAN The sixt Reason which is the foundation of the Fathers IF euer that saying a Iob. 5. search the Scriptures was loued and liked of by any which was greatly regarded and ought to be amongst vs the holy Fathers assuredly herein excelled and exceeded for by their labour and cost were the Bibles copied out and conueyed to so many countries and nations of strange languages by their great perils and torments were they deliuered from burning by the enemies and from destruction by their paines and teachings haue they been throughout expounded most faithfully they spent whole daies and nights in the study of holy Scriptures they preached out of euery Pulpit the holy Scriptures they enriched long volumes with holy Scriptures with most faithful Commentaries they explained the holy Scriptures they seasoned as well their feasting as their fasting with holy Scriptures And finally they exercised themselues euen vntill crooked old age crept vpon them in holy Scriptures And although they grounded their reasons also vpon the authority of their Auncestors vppon the common practise of the Church vpon the succession of Bishops vpon generall Councels vpon Traditions of the Apostles vpon the bloodshedding of Martyrs vpon the decrees of Preâ—â—â—s vpon strange signes and marnâ—â—â—â—us â—â—â—racles yet their greatest desire was especially to fill their treatises with store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures These they vrge vpon these they make their habitation to these Scriptures as vnto the coate b Cant. 4. armor of valiant souldiers they worthily yeeld the highest and most honorable place like noble captaines daily desending the Catholike Church which is the citie of God by them kept in good repaire against all mischeeuous assaults of her enemie the which thing maketh me the more to maruell at that proud and foolish exception of the aduersarie who like one that seeketh for water in the running riuer complaineth for the scarsity of Scriptures where greatest store of Scriptures are alleadged So long he saith he is content to be iudged by the Fathers as they swarue not from the Scriptures Doth he speake as he thinketh I will see then that these most famous writers most auncient Fathers and most holy men Saint Denys S. Cyprian S. Athanasius S. Basil S. Gregory Nazianzen S. Ambrose S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Augustine and S. Gregory the great shall come forth wel armed and vpholden with Christ with the Prophets with the Apostles and with the whole furniture of the Bible Grant good Lord that that religion may * And at this day the same faith flourisheth in England which those Fathers did had and defended raigne in England I say good Christ grant that that religion may raigne in England that these Fathers that embrace the Scriptures so louingly haue builded vp out of the Scriptures Looke what Scriptures they bring wee will bring the same looke what Scriptures they conferre we will conferre the same looke what Scriptures they alleadge we will alleadge the same Art thou also contented with this cough out Sir a Gods name and tell me plainly what you thinke I like them not thou wilt say except they interpret the said Scriptures rightly what meanest thou by saying rightly ô now I know after thy owne fancy Art thou not ashamed of this blind intreate dealing Then for as much as I am in good hope that in the foresaid Vniuersities that most freshly flourish there will ioyne together a great number of such as will looke into these controuersies not grosely but with sharpe iudgement and wil weigh these mens trifling answere not partially but in equall ballance I will therefore with a chearefull courage expect this day of battell as one that mindeth to march forward with the nobility force of Christs Church against a monkesâ— multitude of ragged Rogues WILLIAM WHITAKERS The answere to the sixth Reason which is the foundation of the Fathers I Cannot wel coÌ„iecture Campion what these new foundations of the fathers may bee which you propound vnto vs. As touching the fathers we haue giuen you your answere and haue plainely prooued that they affoord no foundation for you to build your cause vpoÌ„ And it is probable that you thought so your self therefore you iudged it not safe for you to rest in them vnlesse you brought foorth certaine foundations by which you might strengthen the
and authoritie with him and forbids all appeales to the Bishop of Rome Therefore he must needes deest your Pope who preferreth himselfe both in dignity authority before all other Bishops from all parts drawes vnto his courts all appeales i DVR Cyprian in this place speaketh not at all touching any appeale WHIT. pag. 434. If you consider the place well you shall find that he inueigheth against certaine false Bishops who being condemned by the voices and censures of the Bishops of Afrike for iust causes vvould haue the causes pleaded againe at Rome before Cornelius the Bishop And in his discourse 1. He shevved that causes ought to be heard vvhere the crimes are committed And so not things done in Afrike at Rome 2. He affirmeth that euery Bishop hath his portion of the flocke for which he must giue an account Then not the Bishop of Rome the vvhole nor the administration of all causes finally he calleth them desperate and forlorne men vvho thought the authority of the Bishops of Afrike to bee lesse then of the Bishops of other countries and so vvith reproach hee reiecteth the supreame authoritie of the Bishop of Rome Is there heere any thing lesse then vve haue affirmed Lactantius writeth that it is a thing without questioÌ„ Lactan. 2. cap. 19. k DVR Lactantius speaketh not of the Images of Christians but of the Idols of the Heathen vvhich he condemneth because they are made of the earth besides the Ieves had their Cherubins WHIT. pag. 436. He nameth not Idols but Images such as your Church is full of and so can there be no religion in it Besides your Images are no more heauenly then theirs but made of the earth as theirs who pretended for themselues as he vvriteth lib. 2. cap. 2. as you do that they vvorshipped not the Images but the God expressed by them Further for the Cherubins they were placed in the most holy place into vvhich the people might not enter not yet looke in and shevv vs particular precepts for yours as they had for theirs and vve haue done But he that commanded theirs forbiddeth euery vvhere all others There can be no religion wheresoeuer there is an image If hee now liued and saw your Churches full of images would he acknowledge any signe of true Religion Athanasius affirmeth Athanas conts a Gentas That the holy Scriptures giuen by inspiration are sufficient to instruct men in all trueth wherein with one word hee hath put to slight the whole armies of your l DVR VVill not all your Vniuersity men account you a cosener vvhen Athanasius ioyneth the bookes of the Fathers with the Scriptures WHIT. pag. 438. If Athanasius say asmuch as I affirme The Scriptures are sufficient of themselues vvhy do you reptoach me but he addeth the bookes of the Fathers he doth but not as traditions differing from the Scriptures but as Commentaries vpon them For saith he by reading of them a man may in some measure vnderstand the sense of the Scripture These vvords make not for you neither against vs therefore I vsed neither cosening nor disceite traditions Epiphanius sharply reprooueth certaine foolish women Epipham lib. 3. Haeres 79. who worshipped the virgine Mary with a certaine new kind of worship and condemneth all that superstition m DVR Epiphanius speaketh nothing of the adoring of the Saints but reproueth â—omen for offering vp sacrifices to the Virgin Mary aâ— to a Gâ—â—ldâ—â—â—e WHIT. pag. 440. Nay he speaketh against the adoration and honoring of Saints and not of sacrificing only his vvords are plaine â—et none of the Saints be adored The vvord he vseth signifieth to bovv and prostrate our selues and to vvorship one vvith Diuine honor vvhich being proper to God you impiously giue to the Virgin Mary and to other innumerable Saints Let none saith he worship the Virgine Mary What would he say if hee now saw not onely foolish women but also men and all mortall wights n DVR No Câ—tâ—oâ—ike doth offer vp sacrifice or performe vowes to the Virgin Mary WHIT. Yet you confesse you do such things to the honor of the Virgin and other Saints I pray you what may be the meaning of this you offer vp sacrifices and vowes to God in honor of the Saints let me demaund of you as Epiphanius of these women what Scriputre â—peaketh any thing of this matter Then answere your Masses are they offered to the Virgin Mary or for her whether soeuer Epiphanius saith It is foolish strange and that vvhich proceeded from the spirit of Diuels Againe who knoweth not that you offer vp prayers and intercessions to the Virgin Mary and all Saints And no man is found either so greatly couetous or so little superstâ—tious but he voweth somewhat to some Saint specially to the Virgin Mary offering vp sacrifices and vowes to the Virgine Mary Basil in Epist ad Cleric Neocaesariae Basil is the author that in his dayes there was a o DVR Basil doth not say it was the custome of all Churches WHIT. pag. 442. It seemeth you haue not read Basil reade the place and you shall find these words there The câ—â—ome we now keepe is consonant and agreeable to all the Churches of God And he reckoneth the Churches of Aegypt Afrike Thebes Palestine and all who vse singing of Psalmes custome in all Churches that the people repeated the Psalmes in the holy assemblies But in your Churches the people can p DVR As if the publike prayers of the Church did not profit the people vnlesse they vnderstand the 〈◊〉 what a foolish dreame is this WHIT. pag. 443. We had rather dreame with the Apostle then watch with you for thus S. Paul speaketh 1. Cor. 14 4.5.6 He that speaketh a strange tongue speaketh not vnto men but vnto God vers 6. If I come vnto you speaking diuers tongues what shall I profit you Strange tongues then profit not vnlesse your tongues haue some more Diuine power then the Apostles tongue had neither heare nor vnderstand those things which are read but are onely deluded with ridiculous gestures and pompous shewes q DVR Gregorie neuer thought so but in the same place he commendeth the solitary life as more excellent then any humane condition neither speaketh he of the common life of Christians but of that vvhich is spent in the duties of charity WHIT. pag. 444. I proue it easily out of his words Hierome the Philosopher saith he proposed vnto himselfe to know whether of our liues vvas more to be vvished for and more profitable to the end he might make choice of it And when he knew that euery man was not borne for himselfe only but for all others who beare the same nature with him he embraced this common life rather then that solitary life Doth he not now preferre this life and from the praise he giueth the other he hath somewhat detracted when he sheweth that it is only for themselues and so lesse
some filthines About the most of which seeing that you haue had an answere made you by him whom you name Reuerend Charke I maruell that you haue returned them to vs heere againe There must needs be great lacke of true imputations seeing that you haue no varietie at all of false ones And seeing that my fellow souldier and companion in Christ William Charke did labour diligeÌ„tly in these things those things which are largely enough confuted by him shall bee run ouer now by mee briefely and shortly It shall bee therefore enough for mee to cut in sunder these your peeces which haue been before so broken in shiuers as that they might seeme able to hurt none Wherefore now spue out these your morsels of reproches And heare ye them If the wife will not or cannot let the maid come A filthie and vncleanely speech as it seemeth Luther wrote a little booke of marriage in the second part whereof hee remembers three causes whereby hee thinketh marriage may be dissolued The first is Impotencie another is Adultrie the third is Desertion Now hee expoundes that to be desertion when as the wilful and obstinate wise can by no meanes bee perswaded to performe the office of due benouelence to the husband for there are some such froward wiues found that although the husband doe fall ten times into whordome yet they regard it neuer a whit Wherefore Luther thinketh it fit for the husband to fray his wife with words and to threaten hir on this manner If you will not another will If the mistrisse will not let the maide come With whom if threats preuaile not let him conuent her before others and bring the matter to the Church But now if she be neither moued with priuate threatnings nor by the publike reproofes of the Church then saith Luther diuorce her and take Ester into Vashties place Only to propouÌ„d these things in this maÌ„ner is a very euident confutation of Campians reproch For who doth not marke what counsaile Luther gaue to the husband not that he should presently take his mayd but that he should propose threats of diuorce to his obstinate wife and breake her stomacke by that meane Now as for this opinion of Luther about this kind of diuorce though I doe not defend yet you cannot accuse it c DVR You are ignorant that vvith vs only adultery is the cause of diuorce WHIT. pag. 688. Nay you are ignorant of your owne Canons for to omit others see what the Tridentine Fathers decreed If any shall say that the Church doth erre vvheÌ„ shee decreeth that for many causes diuoâ—ce from bâ—dde and cobabitation may be had either for a certaine or vnlimited time let him be accursed Do not you now differ from your owne Councell as alâ—o from the Apostle For among you there be infinite causes of diuorce so as in so great liberty of diuorce it is maruaile that any marriage stood in force If Luther had at any time written any such thing as wee reade was written by Clement whom you brag to haue beene Pope of Rome what tragedies would yee haue raised Heare Campian I would haue you marke whereto this speech tendeth d DVR If you had seene some old copies or vvaighed the scope of the Epistle you might easilie haue seene that the place is corrupted WHIT. pag. 689. I can be content you should defend Clement for I easily thinke that Clement would neuer speake so dishonestly But when you father Epistles vpon auncient Bishops such as they neuer writ God would shew your perfidie by manifest demonstrations For copies we haue none whether old or new but from you and many I haue seene and they all haue it Yet remember that you here confesse the Popes decretall Epistles to bee corrupted why 〈◊〉 forged which other where you perempâ—orily deny The common vse of all things Clement Epist 5. that are in this world ought to be to all men But through mens naughtines one said that this was his and another that and so there is a diuision made betweene mortall men Finally one of the wise men of the Grecians knowing this to bee so saith that all things among frieÌ„ds ought to be common Now among al things without doubt are husbands and wiues You may think you heare some Plato discoursing of the communitie of things alleadge some like place of Luthers What theÌ„ followeth after in those patches of yours For because the carnall knowledge of the wife is as necessarie to euery one as meate and drinke and sleepe are e DVR Tertul de Monog Hieron lib. 1. contra Iouinian vnderstand it only of those vvho are married that they might lawfully keepe and haue their wiues still WHIT pag. 690. That which Tertullian writ for the heretike Montanus that you greatly approue of And hee that knoweth not Hierome to bee further carried in the contempt of marriages then the Scriptures do allow of he accounteth the authoritie of Hieromes writings more then of the Word of God But the Apostle reiecteth this interpretation for when he commandeth that euery man should haue his wife to auoid foâ—nication vvho seeth not that this law concerneth the vnmaâ—ried who are forbidden fornication as well as the married And after in the 9. vers he speaketh to the vnmarried If they cannot absteine let them marâ—â—â— for it is better to marrie then to burne Therefore hee doth not onliâ— commaund that they vvho haue vviues keepe them still but that they vvhâ—â— haue not should marrie if they found it necessarie for them to auoid incontiâ—â—â—cie The Apostle commandeth 1 Cor. 7.2.9 that euery one for the auâ—iding of fornication haue his wife and euery woman her owne husband and that they that cannot conteine should marrie They therefore who haue it not giuen to them by God as that they can alwaies be without wiues to such it is necessary that they marry wiues if they will bee honest and chaste For I confesse that marriage is not necessarie for them who may wallow without punishment in all manner of vncleannesse and lust But goe forward Marriage is much better than Virginitie and against this Christ and Saint Paul perswaded Christian men The same things doe not agree to all men and that which is most profitable to some one may be contrarie to the inclinations of others Virginitie is one of those indifferent things which are as they are vsed for it is not simply good for then it were vnlawfull at all to thinke of marriage but after a sort f DVR VVhat is this else but euen the same that Iouinian ansâ—vered vnto Hierome the rest of the auncient Fathers As Augustine shevveth De. Sancta Virginitate cap. 21.22.23.24 WHIT. pag. 691. Whosoeuer will be single for this only end that he may liue so much the more 〈◊〉 â—ase and in the more pleasure and not be troubled with the necessary cares of marriage do deserue to be blamed with Iouinian And this sort
all the c Hiero. in cat script saincts of heauen that through their pure and vertuous conuersation vpon the earth gaue a rare example vnto all sorts of men Thou shalt finde that they both liued here and died members of our Catholick Church And that we may take a tast of some few by name d In Epist. ad Smyr on our side was Ignatius that so earnestly thirsted after martyrdome who in ecclesiasticall matters aduanced a * And we in those thingâ— which are proper to a Bishop make none equall to a Bishop Bishop euen aboue a King who penned also certaine traditions of the Apostles whereof he himselfe was a witnesse least they should be quite forgotten e Euseb lib. 3. cap. 30. Dam. in vit Telesp To. 1. con c. stat d. 5. On our side was that Anchorete Telesphorus who commanded that the fast of Lent which was before instituted by the Apostles shouldbe kept more strictlie On our side was S. Ireneus f Lib. 3. c. 3. who proued that the Apostolike faith descended vnto vs by the succession and sea of Rome On our side also was that high Bishop g Euseb 5. hist. 24. Victor who by a generall Proclamation * This is false for he could not subdue it kept the whole Countrie of Asia in due obedience which Proclamation though to some it seemed somewhat hard but specially vnto this most blessed man S. Ireneus no man yet attempted to deface as * This is false for many Bishops haue bitterly inueyed against Victor for this cause forraigne authoritie Polycarpus h Euseb 4. hist 14. Suidas was on our side that about the question of the keeping of Easter day went and conferred with the sea of Rome whose reliques after he was burned the faithfull Christians at Smyrna gathered together and gaue due honor vnto their Bishop by obseruing yearely the day of his death as an high and solemne feast On our side were i Euseb 7. Hist 2. S. Cornelius and S. Cyprian those golden paire of Martyrs which were both very worthy Prelates but the former was the greater who when he was Bishop of Rome abolished the Affrican errors The latter also got great commendations through his loyall obedience which he shewed to his superior and dearest friend he had in the world On our side was Sixtus who when he song Masse at the Altar was solemnely serued with seauen men of the Cleargie On our side was S. Laurence this mans Archdeacon whom the aduersaries cancell out of their Calenders To whom k Prud. in Hym. de S. Laur. vi Aug. ser de S. I aur Ambros lib. 1. off cap. 4. lib. 2. off 28. Leo serm in die S. Laur. Prudentius a man that had been Consull in Rome about 1200. yeares ago prayed in this wise O most glorious seruant of Christ what power is giuen thee and what authoritie is graunted vnto thee in heauen the great ioy of the Romanes doe sufficiently shew vpon the obteining of such requests as they make vnto thee Amongst the which number I beseech thee mercifullie giue eare to me thy rude Poet that doth confesse vnto thee my sinfull thoughts also disclose my wicked actions heare benignly I pray thee me thy humble suppliant Prudentius that hath highly offended Christ my Sauiour On our side l Metaph. Ambros ser 90. tom 3. lib. 1. de Virg. Ado. Tae in martyr Euseb 8. Hist 27. were those most blessed virgins S. Cecilia S. Agatha S. Anastasia S. Barbara S. Agnes S. Lucia S. Dorethy and S. Katherine who constantly kept their vowed chastitie against the tyrannie both of men and diuels S. Helen was on our side who was most famous for the finding of the crosse of Christ S. Monocha the mother of S. Augustine was on our side who when she lay on her death-bed most deuoutlie desired to be praid for after her death Ruff. lib. 1. cap. 8. Ex Aug. lib. 9. con cap. 7. vsque ad 1â— Hieroâ— in Epist Paul Hieroâ— in cap. Semp. Athanas Ambros in orat fut de Satyro Ioan. Diacon Seu. Sâ—lp Metaph. Grae. lib. 2. Dial. and to haue the * This was not the sacrifice of the Masse reade the answere sacrifice of the masse offred for her at Christs altar S. Paula was on our side who forsaking her faire pallace situated within the citie of Rome and her goodly farmes abroade in the Countrie went on pilgrimage by long iourneys euen vnto to the caue of Bethelem where Christ lay crying in his cradle there in solitarinesse to spend the residue of her time On our side was S. Paulus S. Hilarion S. Antony who liued in solitarinesse till they were old men On our side was Satyrus that was brother germain vnto S. Ambrose who carrying about him in a stole that dreadfull hoast and being in present danger of shipwrack hoping assuredlie that he would protect him lept into the raging sea and sâ—ome to land On our side were S. Nicholas and S. Martin who were both Bishops much exercised in watchings cloathed altogether in haire-cloth and fed with fasting On our side was S. Benet who was father vnto a great number of Monks Ten yeares were not long ynough for me to recite this infinite number of Saints neither do I heere make mention of them whom before I placed among the Doctors of the Church I do not forget my promise that I would passe ouer things as briefly as I could conuenientlie let him that would know more hereof peruse not only the large histories of auncient writers but also much more rather the graue authors which haue almost euery one of them written speciall bookes of the liues of the Saincts for a remembrance to their posteritie * And you of al those name me one Iesuit then let him tell me what his opinion is of those most auncient Christians Vide. 12. tom Surij and most blessed of whether religion were they of the Catholikes religion or of the Lutherans religion * After this manner Campian vseth to dispute I call to witnes the throne of God and that his tribunall seate before which I shall stand to render an accompt of these my ten reasons and of my said act in making my challenge that either there is no heauen at all which I and my adherents do detest or that it belongeth properlie to such only as are of our religion which thing we for our parts hold for sound doctrine Now on the contrary side if you thinke good let vs looke downe into hell Damnati where lye some burning in euerlasting fire Who the Iewes what Church are they against ours Who else the heathen What Church haue they most cruellie persecuted ours who besides these the Turks What Churches haue the pulled downe ours who yet the hereticks to what Church were they enemies to ours * The Catholike Church of which your Church is no part Forwhat Church I pray you hath
a witles kinde of reasoning is this first to recken vp the Saints in Heauen and say these are ours Then to number vp the damned Iewes Gentiles Turkes Heretikes and affirme those are the enemies of our Church To rehearse those Countries that haue been conuerted to the faith of Christ and conclude by and by these are of our Religion would you take this man to bee well in his wits compassing Heauen Earth and Hell so childishly a DVR Jf heere he any thing ridiculous then may you laugh at the Prophet vvho aâ— speedily runnes ouer the whole world And S. Paul tooke a testimony for a truth out of the beathen Poet Act. 17 2â— WHIT. pag. 856. Who knoweth not that God may be knowne by his creatures religion illustrated by nature vncorrupt but what nature I pray you hath taught CamptaÌ„ thus to iudge of the heauenly spirits and the damned soules and of the whole frâ—me of things can he learne by nature that those who haue professed the Popish religion doe novv enioy heauenly happines and that they who dislike it are tormented in hell These weapons of Campian were those that impure Symmachus opposed Christian religion withall Ambros Epist 30. Prudent contra Symmachum ridiculouslie and impertinently taking vnto himselfe what he liketh and reiecting the rest A worthie cauil fit for none but Iesuites which when a man hath by one negatiue discharged can neuer be proued by their peruerse sect and whole societie These dreames of yours Campian are vnworthie any answere one word of denial confutes this whole Chapter I will not bestow much time in answering this Sophisme so vnhansomely framed and patched together it shall suffice lightly to passe and only touch euery thing in a word First therefore you alledge the prophecie of Esay of a straight way wherein the simple should not erre b DVR You shew your ignorance in the Prophet for he speaketh not of the way to the Church but of the Church it selfe vvhich is the high way to heauen WHIT. pag. 857. Howsoeuer you interpret the way it maketh neither much for me nor for you The question is who shall find out that way and walke in it for it is not discerned of all because it is a plaine way nor held of all because it is a right way but he that hath learned Christ is he that walketh in this way without any error though he be but sillie and vnskilfull DVR Jf this be so then can it not be the true Church which conteineth sinners and men polluted And the Fathers by this place exclude only those who are not clensed by Baptisme WHIT. pag. 858. The Prophet speaketh of the Church of the elect and Saints because he saith vers 8. The polluted shall not passe by it and vers 20. the redeemed only whose ioy shall be euerlasting but the visible Church conteineth those which are impure whom Christ hath not redeemed and whose ioy shall perish As for Baptisme it purgeth none but such as lay hold of the promise of free iustification by Christ as Tit. 3.5 Heere the Prophet describes the entrance into Christs Church viz. that it should be ready plaine and easie But this way brings vs not to your Church c for of this way the Prophet reports that no prophane man no Lion or cruell beast shall be found in it whereas all your waies are compassed with polluted men raging beasts Lions Beares Leopards Dragons Diuels and in conclusion they leade miserably bewitched men vnto wofull destruction As for vs we treade that way which Christ and his Apostles haue traced out before vs wee auoyde your erroneous and strange waies because it is the way of sinners that you sâ—â—â—d in which way whosoeuer treadâ— Psal 1.1 Rom. 3.17 the way of peâ—ce they haue not knowne First vnderstand the path well your selues and then direct the way vnto vs. Let vs say you asâ—â—â—d into heauen I feare you Iesuites haue no place there Heauen is for Christians not Iesuites But suppose your selues for the time to be in heauen what followeth Let vs behold say you the Martyrs 33. Bishops of Rome slaine together the Vniuersall Pastors companies of the faithfull all holie Saints Well suruey Campian heauen it selfe and all the heauenly host looke well in all the parts and coasts of it whiles you list you shall not find there vpon my word one Iesuit not one Papist for none shall stand in Mount Zion with the Lamb Apoc. 14.1 that haue receiued the marke of the beast or belong vnto Antichrist But in heauen are 33. Bishops of Rome and many more I doubt not but of all these name me one if you can of your religion whom you may iustly claime as yours Those were holy and faithfull Bishops which shed their bloud for the name of Christ But your Popes for these many hundred yeares what else haue they done but persecuted Christ and murthered his true seruants If those 33. Bishops be in heauen as doubtlesse they are how many late Popes could I recken vp which possibly cannot be where they are in all things they are so vnlike them You pick out a few let vs see who these are Ignatius say you was ours why I pray you He thought no man equall to the Bishop in causes ecclesiasticall not the King himselfe and left in writing certaine Apostolike traditions neither say we that any man is to be compared with the Bishop in such things as belong to his office d DVR If these be so proper to Bishops that they cannot belong to Kings then you being iudge the Queene cannot be the head of the English Church WHIT. pag. 160. We acknowledge no other head of the Church saue Christ And Prince though they may not do any of thâ—se 〈◊〉 yet they rule ouerthem who doe and ought to command them diligently to execute their offices which if they neglect they ought to reproue compell and punish them as we reade the good Kings of the Church Iewish and Christian haue euer done and the reason hath no force Princes haue no authoritie to preach therefore they haue no authority to punish those who teach false doctrine to their people He only ought to ouersee holy things viz. instruction of the people administration of the Sacraments vse of the keyes of the kingdome of heauen These are matters of great weight and exceed the kingly authority yet are Kings aboue Bishops in wealth honor gouernment maiestie and they may lawfully both admonish them of their dutie and restraine them when they offend If Bishops herein would equall themselues with Kings it were too intolerable As for the Apostles traditions which Ignatius hath left in writing we receiue them so farre as they agree with the Apostolicall Scripture if they dissent from those we refuse them The Epistles of Ignatius were most of them counterfet as euery man may see heere you rehearse many and still the vndersong is these are ours Telesphorus say