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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	bishop_n	church_n	council_n	3,236	5	6.7056	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A13159	A briefe replie to a certaine odious and slanderous libel, lately published by a seditious Iesuite, calling himselfe N.D. in defence both of publike enemies, and disloyall subiects, and entitled A temperate wardword, to Sir Francis Hastings turbulent Watchword wherein not only the honest, and religious intention, and zeale of that good knight is defended, but also the cause of true catholike religion, and the iustice of her Maiesties proceedings against popish malcontents and traitors, from diuers malitious imputations and slanders cleered, and our aduersaries glorious declamation answered, and refuted by O.E. defendant in the challenge, and encounters of N.D. Hereunto is also added a certaine new challenge made to N.D. in fiue encounters, concerning the fundamentall pointes of his former whole discourse: together with a briefe refutation of a certaine caluminous relation of the conference of Monsieur Plessis and Monsieur d'Eureux before the French king ...	Sutcliffe, Matthew, 1550?-1629.	1600 (1600)	STC 23453; ESTC S117866	358,520	534

absurd positions and principles in their religion TO recount and declare all the absurdities and heresies of the popish faction woulde require both time and labour they are so many and so intricate In number they passe the sande they are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as saith a I'iad 1. Homer And no maruell séeing they are builte on the pope which albeit he be b Sanders rocke reputed as a rocke yet is nothing but a banke of sande whereon the papists haue wracked their faith But of the rest I shall haue time to speake héereafter Now I will onely mention those which sir Francis Hastings doth obiect and which his aduersarie goeth about to remooue I say therefore that it is most true which he doth obiect diz That the papists hould ignorance to be the mother of deuotion D. Cole a man of no obscure note among the papists in a certaine disputation at Westminster did openly affirme it I tell you saith he ignorance is the mother of deuotion neither is he singular in this point a Aduers proleg Brent l. 2. f. 71. Hosius saith that ignorance is not onely woorthy pardon but reward also The same b Ibidem l. 3. fol. 146. man also commendeth the Coliars faith which vnderstanding nothing said he beleeued as the catholicke church and being further demaunded what the church beleeued said as he beleeued and so persisted in that circle And in another c Confess Petricou de fid symb f. 17. place he affirmeth that Nihil scire est omnia scire and that it is sufficient for a man to beleeue that which the catholicke church beleeueth albeit he be not able to shew what it beléeueth And that the synagogue of Rome holdeth this opinion albeit not in plaine termes it appeareth by their practise For they do not willingly suffer the scriptures to be translated into vulgar toongs nor permit lay men to read them without licence which is not easily obteined Further their publike praiers and liturgies are all set foorth in vnknowne toonges The people vnderstandeth neither what they pray nor what they beléeue The priests for the most part are blind and so is the people and so the blind is set to leade the blinde Paule the second did so hate knowledge that he pronounced them heretikes which should once mention the word Academie Paulus haereticos eos pronuntiauit saith d In Paulo 2. Platina qui nomen academiae vel seriò vel ioco deinceps commemorarent Likewise they hold that princes are not to meddle with the externall gouernment of the church nor to make lawes for the establishment of faith and manners e Lib. 5. de pont Rom. cap. 7. Bellarmine doth distinguish ecclesiastical gouernment from ciuill gouernment whereby it may appéere that he woulde not haue the temporall magistrate to meddle with the church And in another place he directly f Lib. 1. de pont Rom. c. 7. saith That the gouernment of the church was committed to bishops and priests and not to princes and that princes ought not to determine a cause of the church Generally they all holde that the prince is not to reforme abuses in doctrine but the councell of priests which is a position very absurd For first wée sée that vnder the law kings reformed abuses and established orders in the church as appeareth by the example of Hezekiah Iosia Dauid and others Likewise among christians Constantine Valentinian Gratianus Theodosius and other princes did not onely reform abuses and condemne heresies but a Cod. de sum Trin. fide cath titulis sequentib establish orders and promulge the articles of christian faith Nay some there are that thinke it a matter vndecent and vnnecessary either to vnderstand or to argue of matters of religion Charles the fift as Meteranus in his story testifieth commaunded that no lay man should dispute of religion and many were executed for that cause onely The Italians say that it is matter for fryers to reason of religion E cósa da frati c. They hold and teach further that the pope determining matters of faith is to be beléeued vnder paine of damnation and this is that which Sir Francis meant and which both Bellarmine and all the popish crew writeth and beléeueth And yet we find that he approoueth many damnable heresies as that of the Angelickes Collyridians Staurolatrians Manichées in ministring the communion vnder one kinde the Pelagians in extolling the merits and force of works and diuers others Boniface the eight holdeth that none can be saued but such as be subiect to the pope And Bellarmine b Lib. 2. de Pontif. Rom. c. 12. cōcludeth that it is a point of faith to hold that the bishop of Rome hath succeeded Peter in the vniuersall regiment of the church So that whatsoeuer he commandeth that must bée beléeued Neither may priuate men dispute of the popes power For that they say is sacriledge and no lesse then To open a mans mouth against heauen And yet his determinations wée finde to be hereticall and his commandements wicked and vnlawfull Lastly they teach that the pope hath power to pardon all sinnes And that is so true that it cannot bée denied For they giue him all Christes power in earth And in the taxe of penances there is set downe a taxe for indulgences for all sinne yea for Iudaisme apostasie Turcisme Maranie Paricide Sodomie and whatsoeuer heinous sinne else And albeit the more learned distinguish betwéene mortall and veniall sinne betwéene culpam and poenam yet if ●he pope can forgiue all the punishment then sure can he forgiue any sinne and the rude papists vnderstand no such subtilties If then sir Francis hath auouched any such matter against the papists hée hath done them no wrong Neither hath this Noddy any sufficient skill to shift off the matter Much be braggeth and faceth but what shoulde wée respect wordes when we sée no truth in his meaning To acknowledge Gods fauour towards vs in deliuering vs both out of the spirituall thraldome of Antichrist and the temporall slauerie of strangers and accumulating vpon the people of this land diuers other both spirituall and temporall blessings hée estéemeth to bée but flatterie and faire glosing and to charge the papists with ignorance and strange opinions hée counteth no better then cogging and lying mixing a number of wordes borrowed partly of cheating companions with whom it should séeme hée hath much conuersed and partly of railing sophisters among whom hée hath long triumphed But as I haue wiped away the accusation of flatterie so I doubt not but I shall easily answer this cogging mates brabling about lying and cogging Hée taketh in great scorne that it shoulde bée saide That a darke and mistie cloud of ignorance did couer the lande in Queene Maries time and saith That it was as wise and learned as Italy or Spaine is at this day where our teachers if they shoulde appeere dare not open their mouthes

no more eare to these hispaniolized English combined with traytors for the destruction of the country For he canne hardly séeme honest whome such rinegued traytors so highly do praise In the end of this chapter he goeth about to teach his disciples the recusantes how farre they are to yéelde obedience to their prince But if his teaching be no better in schooles then in these encounters I doubt he will make but few good schollers First he doth not shew vs whome he taketh for a lawfull prince which for determination of this controuersie would certainly be knowne For if he do not beléeue that a prince excommunicate by the pope and by him deposed is to be reputed lawfull and to be obeyed notwithstanding the popes spite then whatsoeuer he talketh here of obedience to princes concerneth her Maiestie nothing a P. 88. Secondly he would haue recusantes to serue their prince With body goods and life Where we are to note that he neither mentioneth the heart nor the inward affection Do we not then thinke that the recusantes will do her Maiestie good seruice that are deliuered vnto her without soule hart or harty affection Thirdly least vpon his promise they might perhaps be too forward in seruice he draweth them backe with a limitation and teacheth that their seruice and obedience is to stretch no further Then to iust causes of which he maketh eyther the recusantes themselues or the pope their holy father to be iudge So that her Maiestie if the pope procéede against her is to looke for no seruice at the recusantes handes Nay Allen in his traytorous exhortation to the nobility and people of England and Ireland hopeth to draw them to assiste forreine enemies against her Behould I pray you this goodly doctrine Fourthly he teacheth That Christian princes haue no more commaund nor authority in ecclesiasticall causes then heathen magistrates for that Christ altered nothing at all in temporall gouernement But that is a position contrary to the law of God to the practise of Gods church and most absurd sencelesse The law of God referreth ambiguous matters aswell to the iudge or prince as to the priests or leuites For in the Sanedrin of which that law is the foundation the soueraine magistrate was chiefe b Deut. 17. and the king was commanded To read in the law that he might kéepe it by his authority restraining offendors In auncient time vnder the law the kinges and soueraigne magistrates gaue lawes to priests leuites and not contrarywise In the church of Christ for a thousand yéeres or more there were no lawes obserued but those of princes Bellarmine would fetch it higher but his proofes faile him In their Bullary which containeth a summe of the popes lawes they begin with Gregorie the seuenth but in truth Gregorie the ninth was the first that gaue authoritie of lawe to the popes constitutions and gathered them into the booke of decretals Before this time bishops priests deacons and the whole church was a Cod. de sum trin fid ●ath tit sequentib gouerned by the lawes of Christian princes as appéereth by the lawes of Constantinus Magnus Valentiniā Gratian Theodosius Arcadius b Ansegisus de leg ib. Caroli Ludouic Charles the great Ludouicus Pius and diuers others And certes very absurd it were if heathen princes that are strangers from Gods church shoulde haue as much authoritie as Christian magistrates that are principall parts thereof and to whom the execution of Gods law is committed Neither is it materiall that Christ altered nothing in the office of magistrates for it did alwaies belong to the magistrate that was of the church to gouerne the church in externall matters and to sée true doctrine published and the sacraments sincerely administred by those to whose office it appertained So we sée that by this false position he would exclude her Maiestie from all gouernement in ecclesiasticall causes and that notwithstanding his pretence of teaching obedience he teacheth flat disobedience to princes ecclesiasticall lawes and their commaundements Fiftly he c P. 88. teacheth That ecclesiasticall and temporall gouernment is so distinguished that he that ruleth in the one ought not to rule in the other The which doth vtterly ouerthrow the popes temporall kingdome which our aduersary would so willingly maintaine For why should he gouerne a kingdome pretending to be a bishop rather then a king gouerne a particular church of one nation in externall causes especially Secondly we do deny this distinction of authority vpon which our aduersaries fancies are founded And our reason is for that in Christian common wealthes where the same persons are members both of the church and common-welth there the chéefe gouernours ought to haue care both of church and common-welth and most absurd it were if the prince which is a principall member of Gods church shoulde haue no gouernment therein and that inferior persons shoulde haue supreme command ouer the prince Sixtly hée doth insinuate that the pope is Christs vicar the apostles successor in supreme gouernment of the church And this hée teacheth is Recusant schollers least percase they shoulde faile to obey him But this is nothing else but to draw her Maiesties subiects from their due allegiance and to perswade them to listen to the pope as pretending to bée Christs vicar and the apostles successor and supreme gouernour and head of the vniuersall church of Christ which is quite contrarie to his faire pretenses and purpose in this place where hee shoulde perswade the Recusants to obedience towarde their prince Beside that it is so false as nothing more Let this Noddy if he canne shew foorth the popes commission eyther for his vicegerentship or for his pretended apostolicke office and supreme gouernement let him prooue it vnto vs or else forbeare impudently to assume it and to affirme it wée doe shew that bishops are the apostles successors and yet that is no preiudice to the princes supreme authority nor neuer was What then is that which hée bableth of the pope that is neither bishop nor the apostles successor Finally hée affirmeth That ecclesiasticall gouernment stood distinct from ciuill 300. yeeres after Christ and that euery emperour and mortall prince conuerted to the faith and entring into the church submitted themselues to this ecclesiasticall gouernment and so continued vntill certaine heretikes confounded all And so still cunningly hée speaketh for the popes authoritie and secretly disableth not onely her Maiesties power in ecclesiasticall matters but her title also to the crowne standing as shée doth excommunicate by the pope He doth also abuse his reader with the ambiguitie of ecclesiasticall gouernment For if by ecclesiasticall gouernment he meaneth the power of the keies consisting in the censures of the church and power of priestly function which is properly ecclesiastical we grant that such ecclesiastical gouernment belongeth not to princes so that they are to execute the same in their owne persons But if by

e Matth. 28. gaue them in charge To teach what he had commaunded them The f Gal. 1. apostle pronounceth him Accursed that should teach otherwise then the Galatians had receiued By the law of Moses the Sanedrin or chiefe tribunal in Hierusalem had soueraigne authority in iudgement yet might not those iudges pronounce sentence g Deut. 17. But according to the law of God The which doth argue that popish religion is built vpon groundes most absurd and contrarie to religion Finally some do stand much vpon ancient fathers and councelles and the first churches practise and haue not doubted to attribute much vnto them But now finding by experience that these do not much make for them and that the fathers themselues do wholy relie vpon the scriptures they flie wholie to the authority of the pope and to the late church of Rome and perceiue that vnlesse they may sit iudges in their owne cause the same cannot stand But héerein it may plainly appeare that they are no catholikes For ancient catholikes attributed most to scriptures and vsed the testimony of fathers and of the ancient church to declare the true sence and meaning of scriptures But a S●ss 4. conci● Tr●d these admit no sence But that of holy church as they call it which is nothing but the priuate fancy of so●e foolish pope Fourthly as in the foundations of Christian religion so likewise in diuers points of faith the papists do plainly declare themselues to bée no catholikes For first in the obiect of faith they mainly differ true catholikes beléeue in God onely Faith saith the b Rom. 10. apostle is by hearing and hearing by the worde of God c De diuin nomin c. 7. Dionyse saith That faith hath for his obiect the most pure and alwaies being truth that is God And euery Christian rehearsing his faith confesseth That he beleeueth in God the father the sonne and the holy ghost and in no creature But the papists beléeue in angels and in saints and call vpon them For as the d Rom. 10. apostle saith How shall they call on him on whom they haue not beleeued To them also they make confession of their sinnes and from them they looke for helpe and all things necessary as may bée shewed by infinite particulars Further they beléeue the determinations of the pope to be true and trust in him as in the rocke of the church e In opusc contra error Graecor Thomas Aquinas saith that it is a matter of faith to beleeue the determination of the pope Ad fidem pertinet saith he inhaerere determinationi pontificis summi in his quae sunt fidei imò in his quae spectant ad bonos more 's And this is also the opinion of f Summa Siluest in verb. fides Siluester Prierius They beléeue also whatsoeuer is taught by the church of Rome Ad fidem pertinent omnia quae sunt in doctrina ecclesiae saith g Ibidem Siluester Prierius and hée gathereth the same out of h 2.2 q. 5. art 3. Thomas Aquinas and that is their common opinion holding the traditions of the church in equal estimation with the worde of God all which can neuer bée prooued to haue béene beléeued by true catholikes For neither can it bée shewed that in publike liturgies they haue called on saints and on angels as the church of Rome teacheth or confessed their sinnes to them or beléeued in the pope or church of Rome Againe true catholikes beléeue that Christ Iesus was true man and had a body like to ours in height bredth thicknesse and that he filled the place where hée was as do our bodies We must beleeue saith a De essentia diuinitatis Augustine that the sonne of God according to his deitie is inuisible incorporeall and incircumscriptible but according to his humane nature that he is visible corporeall and locall b Contra Eutych lib. 4. c. 4. Vigilius saith That Christ is contained in a place according to his humane nature and that this is the catholike faith Illud corpus saith c Dialog 2. Theodoret habet priorem formā figuram circumscriptionē vt semel dicam corporis substantiam So likewise saith d Ad Thrasimund li. 2. c. 5. Fulgentius Siverū est corpus Christi loco potest vtique contineri But the papists do assigne him a body inuisible impalpable and such a one as is incircum scriptible and without the dimensions of height bredth depth A bodie that may be conteined in infinite places at once yet not continued to it selfe as is the nature of Continua quantitas Finally a mans whole body that is without all qualities of a body may be contained in euery little part of a consecrate hoste increasing and diminishing at the priestes pleasure Further euery catholike Christian beléeueth that our Sauiour Christes true body is ascended into heauen and there remaineth e Ioan. 16. Hée tolde his disciples before his passion That he must leaue the worlde and go to the father And in another place f Iohn 12. That they should not alwaies haue him with thē In the first of the Acts we learne That hee is taken vp from vs into heauen And the apostle S. g Act. 3. Peter doth plainely declare That the heauens must conteine him vntill the time that all things be restored And this also the fathers plainely teach vs According to his diuine nature saith h In Matth. tractat 33. Origen he is not absent frō vs but he is absent according to the dispensatiō of his body which he tooke i Lib. 10. super Luc. 24. S. Ambrose saith That neither on the earth nor in the earth nor after the flesh we ought to seeke Christ if we will finde him Saint Augustine saith k Tractat. 50. in Ioan. Hee hath caried his bodie into heauen although he hath not withdawne his maiestie from the worlde l Homil. 21. in euangel Gregory the first doth plainly affirme That Christ is not heere by the presence of his flesh The flesh of Christ saith Vigilius writing against Eutyches lib. 4. c. 4. when it was in earth surely was not in heauen and now because it is in heauen certainly it is not in earth Neither did euer any ancient father teach otherwise But the papists do teach that Christes true body and flesh is both in heauen and earth and vpon euery altar at one time and that hee is touched and receiued not of men onely but also of mise and dogs and other beasts which to true catholikes séemeth not onely absurd but also abominable All true catholikes firmely beléeue that th●●r sinnes are forgiuen them for Christ his sake and that they shall atteine eternall life according to these two articles of the créed which euery one professeth saying Credo remissionem peccatorum vitam aeternam God he Hath promised and sworne as the a Heb. 6.

heretikes but also against men of their owne religion a Theodor. à Niem de schism lib. 6. c. 36. Plantina Innocent the seuenth caused the principall Romaines to bée murdered that séemed studious to defende their libertie Vrbane the sixt tormented and killed diuers of his owne Cardinals b Platina Iohn the 22. drew off the skin of the bishop of Cahors being aliue c Idem Paul the second by diuers torments vexed diuers learned and good men for small causes Alexander the sixt For euerie light word against him put men to death as saith d In Alexandro 6. Onuphrius His base sonne Caesar Borgia passed all tyrants of former ages in crueltie e De asse Budaeus called Iulius the second for his crueltie Sanguinarium cleri magistrum Leo the tenth among whose praises aposted flatterers accompted clemencie the chéefe committed many cruell executions The cruell murders of Paul the third and succéeding popes are innumerable Bartholomew de las casas in his relation to king Philip the second concerning the state of the Indies calleth the Spaniards Tigres lupos leones crudelisimos sheweth that through their extreme crueltie the people of Hispaniola from thrée millions were reduced to 300. Omne ius saith f In prologo he ludibrio habentes effusi humani sanguinis stillantibus riuis delectantur Neither haue the papists more cause to bragge of their virginitie and chastitie then of their gentle conditions and clemencie Their priests forsweare mariage but few obserue the lawes of chastitie Sacerdotes fornicationibus coinquinantur g C. 23. saith he that wrote Onus ecclesiae curati sordescunt in cōcubinatu h Lect. 182. in lib. sap William Holcot therefore calleth them Priapus his priests priests of Dagon Petrus de Alliaco confesseth in his treatise of reformatiō That the whole order of the popish clergie is corrupted with luxuriousnes and other vices to the great scandale of the people Long it were to recount all their abominations not onely now publikely knowne but also whilome testified to the worlde by Picus Mirandula Baptista of Mantua Palingenius diuers others Boccace testifieth that in the most holy citie of Rome i Nouell 2. From the greatest to the least they offended in luxuriousnes and that not onely naturall but also against nature which testimonie for very shame they haue of late corrupted and razed The popes that should bée examples of holinesse being termed Holy fathers are more defiled then the rest of that synagogue with all carnall beastlinesse Themselues in their stories do not dissemble the filthie liues of Iohn the 12. Clement the 5. Iohn the 22. and 23. Sixtus the fourth Alexander the sixt Iulius the second and third Leo the tenth Paule the third and diuers others Neither is it to bée doubted but that the rest were like to these Iohn the eight being a woman plaied the whoore in the papacie to declare that the synagogue of Rome is the whoore of Babylon The monasteries of women are little better then common stewes a C. 2● Veneris prostibulo saith the authour of Onus ecclesiae sunt similiora quàm dei sacrario Virginum septa in meretricios fornices obscaena latibula conuersa sunt as saith Picus b In orat ad L●on 10. Mirandula Palingenius of monkes saith c In leone they are Raptores moechi puerorum corruptores Petrus de d De reformat eccles Alliaco complaineth of their beastly manners And this experience teacheth to be most true Publikely in Rome and other cities of the popes communion there are publike bordels Yea and popish priests as saith e De arte lenon Agrippa are woont to set out thrée or fower women to hire for encrease of their reuenues Is it not maruell then that these fellowes are not ashamed to talke of mortification of the flesh penance and continency when they wallow in such filthinesse and commit such abominations as with modestie may not be named The papists also praie and do almesdéeds but sure they haue no reason to proclaime them For vnder colour of their praiers the monkes and friers deuour the houses of widowes and orphanes Nay simple people praie they know not what and call vpon mortall men that cannot helpe and before stockes and stones that cannot heare Besides that their almesdéedes being bestowed vpon monks and friers that liue in all licentiousnesse and voluptuousnesse and are now become the onely practisers either to ouerthrow princes and their states or else to bring them in slauerie of Antichrist are woorthie no reward Neither do papists either kéepe better houses or take lesse fines or vse lesse swearing forswearing then other men For with vs most of them breake vp houses and binde their tenants to as great inconueniences as any men Now of their othes to their princes and others they cannot make any great reckoning when they are taught that othes to princes binde no longer then it pleaseth the pope and in so manie places haue rebelled against their lawfull magistrates The Noddy hée braggeth also of marying poore mens daughters But yet is not able to tell of so many maried as dishonested by popish priests and papists Now if he please to name the one he shall heare the names of the other Most absurdly also doth hée take on him to talke of penance mortification of the flesh and fasting when popish penance is nothing but externall punishment consisting for the most part in lashing of the bodie and other workes either veluntarilie performed or by the priest enioined Neither is their mortification of the flesh any thing but hard lying going as they call it woolward wearing haire-cloth and such like afflictions of the body Fasting likewise with them is nothing but eating of fish But such penance such mortification such fasting is no where enioined Besides that Christ no where commandeth any to forsweare mariage or to kéepe themselues virgins but such as haue the gift thereof Neither doth hée command any to giue away his goods and créepe into a monasterie Nor may wée thinke that they renounce the world or embrace pouertie that as the Iesuits and other friers do liue in goodly palaces and haue all things which they wanted before in great abundance If this were the way to heauen the way thither were verie plaine and large and most pleasant and easie Wherefore if wée may iudge those to be blessed of God that liue according to true religion and those vnhappie whose actions are fierce and cruell whose liues are filthy and abominable and farre disagréeing from the truth of Christian pietie then wee haue reason to lament the damnable estate of papists and to reioice that God hath giuen vs better grace then to follow them in their filthinesse sauage cruelties and notorious impieties Our aduersarie saith He hath touched before the bloody tragedies raised in France Flanders Scotland and might adde Swizzerland and Germany where aboue

in schooles or matters of learning And therefore at his pleasure hee calleth them Sunshine doctors and inlightened and sunne borne ministers Finally hée telleth vs That in Queenes Maries time there was as learned a clergie as in many ages before and that our bishops which in contempt he calleth poore creatures are no way comparable to Tonstall Watson Christopherson Fecnam Gardiner White that then liued But wherein he thinketh most gloriously to triumph there hée sheweth most follie For first admit these men that hée nameth were great doctors yet it followeth not thereof but that the people liued in great errour and blindnesse which is a matter so apparant that it cannot bée denied For few could say their Pater noster and Beléefe and of those that coulde by hart say them not one among twentie vnderstoode them Like parates they said Credo in Deum but vnderstoode not what they saide They praied likewise but vnderstoode not what they praied Nowe what auaileth it to pray with the lips if the hart vnderstande nothing Likewise they came to church and heard Mattins Euensong and Masse in Latin But what were English people that vnderstoode no Latine the better They were likewise taught to praie not onely to angels saints and to our Ladie but before stockes and stones little vnderstanding the schoole distinction of Doulia and Latria without which they coulde hardly auoide the crime of idolatrie The preachers as a Cant. 29. Dante said Preached old wiues tales legends scriptures were then not suffered to be read of the vulgar sort How then was it possible that this people should vnderstand any thing Secondly wée do very well know what kinde of men these were which the aduersarie nameth Their writings are yet extant and nothing singular And when in the beginning of this Quéenes daies they were chalenged to dispute and felt their owne weakenesse they vtterly refused Procure vs the like libertie to dispute in Seuill or Paris or Milan and sée whether we wil refuse to dispute with these great Rabbines Now wée confesse indéed we are not open our mouthes in schooles in Spaine Italy But the reason is for that it is death to defend truth But if we were no more afraid of their swords then their arguments they shoulde soone perceiue that wée both durst and woulde open our mouthes against the proudest of their Iesuits and woulde either shut their mouthes or make it appéere that they crie and speake without reason Wherefore let this lunaticall or extaticall frier either forbeare to bragge or else procure vs libertie to dispute and then hée shall sée how hée is vnable to match those whom héere he reiecteth with scorne gibing at their lawfull wiues and children when he and his consorts and all the rable of priests and friers walloweth in all filthinesse and abominations making no conscience of whooredome and publikely maintaining bardassaes and concubines and a race of bastardes about them and many of them dooing woorse all which shall be iustified by particulars if our aduersarie desire triall in this point Lastly it is not the learning of fiue or sixe that can make all the rest of the clergie séeme learned It may bée these fewe were tolerablie learned But certes the ignorance of the other masse priestes was excéeding great Now in Spaine and Italie not euery tenth man vnderstandeth his Portuis or Missal and in matter of religion little or nothing Wherefore if the pastor be so ignorant and blinde it is no maruell though the people be farre more blinde rude and ignorant He telleth vs That it is no haeresie nor neuer was so accompted to read on the Bible in any language whatsoeuer And yéeldeth this reason For that by licence of the ordinarie it is permitted to infinite lay people to read Scriptures in vulgar tongues Secondly hée saith That none was euer called for this fault onely before the Romish clergie and branded to the slaughter And because sir Francis Hastings doth holde the contrarie hée doth giue him the lie and with very braue wordes make shew as if hée woulde challenge him into the field facing brauing like a false shamelesse frier But when it cōmeth to the point hée passeth ouer the matter with a fewe railing wordes shewing himselfe a cowardly challenger that hauing giuen the lie runneth out of the field without daring to abide other triall then by the toong In which also I doubt not but to giue him the foile For the first is very euidently disprooued by diuers examinatiōs in king Henrie the eight Quéene Maries daies where it was obiected to lay men that they read the Scriptures in English which should not haue béene done vnlesse by that article they should haue béene conuinced of heresie The second is likewise disprooued by diuers precedents and records whereby it appéereth that poore people were both called and condemned for reading of the Scriptures In the beginning of king Henrie the eight his reigne certaine were condemned for reading the Epistles of saint Paul in English as appéereth by the registers of Lincolne diocesse and bishop Longland preaching at their burning saide That they were damned that mooued their lippes in reading those chapters of Scripture for which those martyrs were condemned Diuers were abiured for reading scriptures One of them was burned with a bible in English about his necke to declare the cause of his burning Both those points are also prooued by the prouinciall constitution a Const pro. c. praeterea de haeretic of Thomas Arundell Statuimus saith he vt nemo textum aliquem sacrae Scripturae authoritate sua in linguam Anglicanam seualiam transferat nec legatur aliquis huiusmodi liber c. vel publicè vel occultè sub poena maioris excommunicationis qui verò contra hoc fecerit vt fautor haeresis erroris similiter puniatur So it appéereth it was vnlawfull to read scriptures in vulgar toongs and that such readers were punished as heretikes or suspect of heresie and that the challenger our aduersary lieth notoriously in both these points Further hée maketh a third lie where he saith that Infinite lay people are by the ordinarie permitted to read the Scriptures translated into vulgar toongs For in all Spaine I beléeue hée cannot name thrée that haue this permission and very vnlike it is they meane that the people shall read Scriptures translated when they will not translate them themselues and forbid all other translations but their owne Besides this who dare desire leaue to read Scriptures translated when it is a note of heresie with them to desire such a matter But least we shoulde mistake this cholericke gentlemans meaning that is so readie to giue the lie and the stab for euery worde let vs heare him declare his meaning concerning reading of translations of Scriptures in his owne termes First saith he most certaine it is that no man or woman was euer forbidden to read any part of the holy scriptures in any of the

The kings iudgement in matters of religion is not allowed by the aduersaries themselues The glorious challenger in his letters to Rome compareth his king to Hunnericus an Arian heretike and a persecutor of the church And saith that as Eugenius bishop of Carthage would not dispute with the Arians without making the bishop of Rome acquainted albeit required by Hunnericus king of Vandals so he would do nothing without the cōsent of the bishop of Rome before the French king In other points neither his letters nor the popes Nuntioes letters nor that other good fellowes letters deserue any credit To conclude all this great stirre which Parsons maketh about nothing doth shew the great pouertie of the aduersaries cause that as men wracked at sea are glad to lay hold vpon euerie broken planke to saue their liues CHAP. VI. The notorious vanitie of the relators obseruations vpon the former narration is detected AFter our relator had trussed vp his fardle of fooleries to make the same more vendible he garnisheth his packet with certaine painted glosses which hee termeth obseruations And to make his eloquence séeme more admirable hée doth excorticate certaine Latin words according to his Romish fashion reflecting as he saith what occurred to his contemplation Which reflections occurrents obseruations and contemplations to do him pleasure we are content particularly to consider and sée whether he were not in a sounde sléepe when he thought himselfe to be in a profound contemplation And first verie wisely he obserueth Gods prouidence in conseruation continuation of the olde catholike faith deliuered first at the ascension of our Sauiour vnto his visible Church as he saith But if he speake of Christs faith then this obseruation cōcerneth him nothing For that faith hath alwaies continued and shall continue notwithstanding the opposition of the Iebusites and Cananites and all their adherents and néedeth neither their letters disputes nor practises to preserue it If he speake of the Romish faith as it is no question but hée doth then wée must tell him that wée denie that that faith is either the catholike faith or was deliuered at the time of Christ his ascension or in many ages after to any Church or procéeded euer from the apostles We doe therefore here obserue that hée is but a bad obseruer that marketh no better what was deliuered by Christ and his apostles Againe wée obserue that it is a strange fashion of spéech to say that the faith began to bée deliuered first at Christ his ascension For then it followeth that not onely the apostles before that time but also the patriarkes and prophets shoulde either be deuoide of faith and saued without faith which is impious to say or that they had faith before it first began It is also a strange doctrine to saie that the apostles at the ascension of Christ deliuered the faith to the visible church For that church is not now visible neither was that church that is now visible then Naie to saie that the whole catholike church is visible is an assertion repugnant as well to reason as to Christian faith Hée obserueth also That though new fantasies and deuises of particular men haue sprong vp with fresh and glistering titles that in the end God bringeth the same to confusion All which wée hope will prooue true in the glorious ruffle of the Iebusites and Romish synagogue For albeit these wicked Cananites will bée termed Iesuites and do pretend perfection in themselues and reformation in others yet their glorie beginneth to fade and their trecherous and Machiauelian practises begin to bée discouered not onely by vs but by their owne consorts The synagogue of Rome also and the kingdome of antichrist albeit it hath long triumphed troden the truth vnder foote yet beginneth to decay and is now oppugned of many and in the end shall bée ouerthrowne It resteth onely that they looke for aeternum opprobrium of which himselfe speaketh Finally the golden idole of the masse is now in most places abolished and where it remaineth is not valued at thrée-halfepence This obseruation therefore maketh much against the obseruer and against vs nothing and is verie farre wide from the matter of this conference out of which these obseruations shoulde be drawne The third point that hée obserueth is That the shame and confusion of heretikes and heresies consisteth principally in 4. points as holy fathers do note viz. First in diuision among themselues secondly in contradiction of sectaries thirdly in atheisme and coldnesse of religion fourthly in open lying and falsifications of authors to serue their purpose But hée leaueth out the very principall cause of the confusion of heretikes And that is partly for that they séeke their owne glorie and not the truth partly for that forsaking the direction of holy Scriptures they follow lying legendes and fables false traditions vaine opinions and determinations of popes and humane fansies Neither is hée so well versed in fathers that hée can tell what they say These 4. points certes which he alleageth the fathers do not say alwaies to bée proper to heretikes For neither are all heretikes diuided into partes nor do all seeme colde in religion some pretending superfluous and superstitious zeale neither haue all heretikes vsed open falsification and lying When hée commeth to exhibite the fathers which hée pretendeth I beléeue he will be driuen to falsifie them or else they will not serue his purpose But were it granted that these qualities are incident to heretikes yet doth the same make little for the aduersaries aduantage who are diuided into diuers sectes and religions and infinite diuers opinions and are not onely atheistes but also the grossest liers and falsificators of authors that euer were heard of in any recorde or historie With their atheisme also they ioine superstition and idolatrie and defende their matters not onely with falshoode and fraude but also with fine force and crueltie As for those of our cōmunion they cannot iustly be charged either with contradiction or diuision or impiety or falsificatiō either by Parsons or by his two friends Rescius and William Reynoldes as hath béene shewed in a treatise called Turcopapismus wherin the spite of those two dogs that haue long barked against religion and belched out al the slanders they could deuise is encountred and their bookes intitled Caluinoturcismus and de Atheismis and Phalarismis refuted and beaten backe vpon the papistes that in Turkish and tyrannicall crueltie and contempt of all religion surpasse all others If the machiauelian Iebusite Parsons dare oppose himselfe and will say no let him answere that bóoke If hee will not answere let him cease to bragge of bookes beaten to dust and refuted to the shame of him and his consorts In this place this may bée sufficient for auoiding this relators slāderous imputatiō that those two railing companions obiect other mens faults to vs and charge vs with priuate mens actes and opinions which neither the church nor we particularly allow and therefore