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A72176 A dialogue bewteene a papist and Protestant applied to the capacity of the vnlearned. Made by G. Gifford, preacher in the towne of Maldon. Seene and allowed according to the order appointed. Gifford, George, d. 1620. 1599 (1599) STC 11849.5; ESTC S125231 92,498 190

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changing your place and roomes The high priests Scribes and Pharisies among the Iewes had their succession and place longer then you and yet Christ and his Apostles did depart from them and were neither heretikes nor schismatikes And why because they had first departed from the truth Ye must not stand vpō one clause but take that which doth follow with it This falling away shal be by the man of sinne the sonne of perdition who was to bee reuealed which is an aduersary and exalteth himself aboue al that is called God or that hath imperiall maiestie so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God boasting or shewing himselfe to be God This is one sentence which doth set the brand in the forehead of your Pope the scarre whereof will euidently appeare when ye haue made as fine worke as ye can Pa. Now ye are come vnto the matter I trow ye will make it plaine and out of all doubt This is spoken indeede of Antichrist but where will ye finde one iot of it in the Bishop of Rome Where will ye finde that euer he hath exalted himselfe aboue all that is called God or that is worshipped which word you translate at your pleasure otherwise thē euer I heard it before that which hath imperial maiestie Ye must proue that the Pope hath exalted himself aboue God or els ye haue slandered blasphemed him Such an one shal Antichrist be Pro. This is all fulfilled by the Pope as I will shew I am not to proue that he hath exalted himselfe aboue God but that hée hath exalted himselfe aboue all that is called God Psalm 82. The kings of the earth are that which is called God for the Scripture saith they are called Gods Iohn 10. And because sebasma which is translated that which is worshipped is in the New Testament giuen to the Emperors of Rome I translate it that which hath imperiall maiestie or dignitie Ye may see that not onely among the prophane writers the epithite sebastos is giuen to the Emperours but also in the 27. of the Acts of the Apostles S. Luke saith that S. Paul was deliuered to a captaine spires sebastes of the band of Augustus Also likewise Act. 25. Festus saith that Paul had appealed to Sebaston that is to Augustus Now the words of S. Paul setting forth the man of sinne are cléerely fulfilled in the Pope who hath bin as all men know exalted so high aboue kings and Emperours that they held his stirrops when he went to horsebacke There hath béen none Lord ouer kings and Emperours but the Romane Bishop None exalted to that dignitie but the Italian Priest Pa. The Apostle saith all that is called God and therefore it is to bee vnderstood of God himselfe for is not he called God There is cause why the Pope should be aboue all the kings and Emperours that doth not proue him to be the man of sinne He hath that of right because he is Christs Vicar Pro. The Apostle doth vse this spéech to put difference betwéen in déed and that which is called God and hath but that high title and is not God in déede God is more then called God for he is very God indéed This thing is also manifest when the Apostle in the next words rising by degrées saith that hee sitteth in the temple of God shewing himselfe that he is God In this last and highest he doth but set him forth to chalenge to himselfe to bée equall with GOD. Where ye say it doth belong of right to the Pope to bee aboue all kings because he is the Vicar of Christ I will answer that anon in another matter Pa. I must let ye haue your saying there is no remedie but doth the Bishop of Rome then sit in the temple of God boasting himselfe that hee is God I marueile what glose ye can make to perswade the people that the Pope doth this Who euer can shew that the Bishop of Rome doth not take himselfe to be a man If he take himselfe to be a man doth he then boast himselfe to be God For shame leaue your slandering and finde some other to ascribe this name Antichrist vnto for to the holy father it doth not belong Pro. Ye must néeds let me haue my saying when it is so manifest truth that ye cannot tel which way to cauill against it The Bishop of Rome doth sit in the temple of God shewing himselfe that he is God Ye néede not maruell nor there néedeth no glosing to perswade the people in this poynt It is rather greatly to be wondred how men should bee so blinde as not to know this great monster séeing the holie Ghost doth so liuely paint him forth in his colours The man of sin must not be a forenner for the Apostle sheweth that he shuld haue his seate in the temple of God This cannot bee vnderstood of the materiall temple in Ierusalem for that was vtterly destroyed shortly after Christ But it is meant of the true temple of God which is his Church In this temple sitteth not the Turke nor yet the Iew or any Pagan doth here raigne but the Pope hath long time had his royall throne set vp in this temple No man can say the Turke or any of the forenamed is Antichrist for wee must not goe out of Christendome to séeke him but find him we must set vp in the very temple of God Al the Papists in the world shall neuer be able to shew any other in the church besides the Pope vnto whom they may apply this descriptiō Where hath there euer béen any in the temple of God which of necessitie is here takē for the church exalted aboue all that is called God beside the Bishop of Rome I pray God open the eyes of the ignorant people whom ye seduce that they may see Antichrist and forsake him Pa. O how you would triumph if yee had any great matter of your side when ye brag so much of nothing VVhat if I should tell ye that the Antichrist which S. Paul doth describe is not yet risen What can ye say must the Pope needes be he because he hath the highest seate in the Church Whē ye haue proued that he boasteth himselfe to bee God then ye shall say somewhat Pro. Where the word of God goeth directly against ye there ye make no account of it at all such bolde beasts yee are to call it nothing But what if ye should tell vs that Antichrist is not yet come alas poore foolish papist What if a Iew should tell vs that Christ is not yet come shall we beléeue him Wee know he is already come hath fulfilled all things which were written of him in the Prophets Shall we be so foolish with the Iewes as to wait for another Likewise what if a Papist tel vs that great Antichrist which the scripture doth speak of is not yet come shall we bee so mad when we see that the Romish Bishop and his clergy
that you doe Among these ye dare be bolde to reason the matter to the full But this I say vnto ye let the diuell bring his note booke with him let the Pope and all his prelates vtter al the skill they can yet the word of God shall still be able to beate them downe in this matter to proue that subiects incurre damnation when they rebell against princes which are the ministers of GOD. As for the examples which ye bring I will shew how they doe not proue that which you alleage them for And then I will let ye see how it is to be proued by the law of God that subiects haue no such power against their princes but that euery priuate man doth very horribly rebell against the Lord God which rebelleth against the powers set vp by God Pa. Howsoeuer yee may seeme to dally with those examples which I haue alleaged yet sure I am they proue that which I doe alleage them for both that it is lawful to kil wicked princes also by colourable dealing for we haue example of the one in Ehud and of the other also in Iehoiada Pro. I will maintaine that which I haue said and shew that they doe not make for that which ye cite them for It is set forth in the Iudges that Israel had done euill in the sight of the Lord and he made Eglon king of the Moabites to preuaile against them to bring them into seruitude When the children of Israel cried vnto the Lord he raised vnto them a deliuerer euen Ehud Afterward it is set foorth how he came went with a present to Eglon desiring to speake with him alone and so slew him Consider well in this storie first how Eglon was an vniust vsurper Iudg. 3. oppressing Israel like a cruell tyrant where he had no right Secondly Ehud is no priuate man but raised vp by the Lord to be their deliuerer Wherefore he had authoritie from God to put downe Eglon euē as wel as a lawful king hath right to fight against such as inuade his land and to kil thē Lastly where Ehud did it colourably we may not draw it into an exāple because it was done by an extraordinary spirit which the pope cannot giue to other because he hath him not himself If he could giue to a priuate man that spirit which Ehud had to warrāt him thē were it somwhat As for the example of Athaliah the mother of king Achasia ● King 11. after she saw her son was dead did arise murder al the kings séed or the blood royal and so vsurped the kingdome she was neither lawful Quéene nor yet to be suffred to liue because she had cōmitted so horrible and cruel murder Wherfore Iehoiada in whose custody the yong king was secretly kept whē he brought him forth to be crowned did not by his owne right set vp a king whō it pleased him but was an helpe to bring the yong king to his right to put downe the wicked murderer vsurper This now maketh nothing at all for the pope whē he taketh vpon him power to depose kings at his pleasure and to set vp whom he shall thinke good Pa. I see well a man cannot bring you to see the power which the prince of the Apostles had and now his successor hath for to depose princes What should a man contend with one which doth not care what he denieth Pro. Christ Iesus whē he was desired by one that he would cōmaund his brother to deuide the land answered Luk. 12. Man who made me a iudge or a deuider Wherby he doth euidently shew that he had no ciuil authority no not in the least causes for els hee would not haue said who made me a iudge much lesse he had authoritie in the highest matters as to depose kings And for this cause when Pilate did aske him if hée were a king he did answer Iohn 18. my kingdom is not of this world likewise he did testifie his subiection to the Emperor Matth. 17. when he Peter did pay tribute How thē doth it come to passe that the pope shuld chalenge to haue that because he is M. vicar which neither Christ nor Peter had No he hath it not that way but because he is the man of sin which hath exalted himselfe aboue all that is called God Moreouer what sayth Christ to his Apostles The kings of the nations rule ouer them Matth. 10. and they that are great exercise authoritie ouer them but it shall not be so among you I pray ye sir if the Apostles might not be as kings princes how had Peter this power to be king of kings or how cā a priest in Italie because as he saith he is the successor of Peter haue this high dignitie to be so farre aboue kings Ye must néeds confesse vnlesse ye will be wilful that the Pope can haue no such power neither from Peter nor Christ they doe both renounce him Then I reason thus as I said before Princes are set vp by God he hath made them his substitutes here on earth he hath not alone giuen them the seate and the sword but also hee hath clothed them with glorie put vpon them as it were of his owne robes when he calleth them Gods We are cōmanded to be subiect to honor and obey not to resist vnder paine of damnation If they command any thing which is disagréeing to Gods will they haue not that power ouer our conscience wee must obey God rather then man Neuerthelesse we are stil subiects to that power which they haue receiued from God And being but priuate men we must say with Dauid God forbid that I should lay my hand vpō my master the king the Lords annointed I say therefore that your Iesuites or whosoeuer fauour them which know their practises are traytors before God and man because they dare lift vp their hand against their soueraigne prince placed in the throne by the high God and subiect to no creature in earth I say therefore let all men take héede of your cursed and damnable waies Let all men sée that your kingdome is not of God which ye vpholde by treasons periuries lyes murders and all kind of euill meanes Pa. All is nought of our side and all good of yours Ye are so malicious that whatsoeuer we do ye condēne it your charity doth shew what ye are Pro. We must néeds say all that is nought which God saith is so I confesse our charitie and yours are not al one for the charitie of you papists is a burning loue Ye can both loue a man and cut his throte also The Lord defend his people from such Vipers which sting to death when they be gentlest of all But Idolatrie is alwaies cruell cannot be maintained but with diuelish and bloody mindes Pa. I know ye doe account vs to be Idolaters and so ye do call vs but we are as far from it as you be