hundreth and fiue Gallia Britannia Africa Persis oriens Iâ—dia omnes barbarae Nationes vnum Christum adorant vnam obseruant regulam veritatis R. But why then by some is Palladius called Scotorum Apostolus C. Men may giue names as they please but hee and Servanus Sedulius Nimanus and many more came but in the fiue hundreth yeare of our Lord and may well haue beene waterers of our Church but sure it is they were not the first planters of it R. It is likely indeed to be so C. But to returne Vnder Diocletian in the three hundreth yeare great persecution was made by that Tyrant in al Christian Churches and among the rest the Church of South Britaine was also persecuted by his Deputies for the which many fled to Crachlint King of Scots who did louingly receiue them and assigned to them the Isle of Mâ—n and erected there a Temple dedicated to Christ called otherwise Sodoâ—eÌ„sis ecclesia wherin they peaceably worshipped Christ Iesus and this our owne Chronicle witnesseth After this in the dayes of Fethelmacus which was about the â—ift yeare of the Emperour Constantius there came into this Countrie one Regulus Albatus out of Achaia a Prouince in Graecia but the Countrie was conuerted also long before hee came Therefore â—iergusâ— King of the Pictes gaue him his Palace hee had in Fyâ—â—e where hee built the Church of Saint Andrew desire you still to heare any more R. Truely I am very glad to heare that we haue beene so ancient Christians and yet there remaines a doubt in my heart that the Gospell came neuer hither but out of Rome C. Remember you not what I haue prooued seeing wee are but three yeares in Christianitie behinde Rome thinke you in so small time they did so encrease that they spread out their branches to the vttermost parts of the earth Yea rather if you will reade the Storie you shall finde that for three hundreth yeares wherein are many three yeares they were so vexed by the persecutors that they could not get their owne Church stablished as after it was when God relented the persecution But to come nâ—erer yet vnto you whether hee was an Apostle or an Apostolicke man that first planted our Church I will giue you two great reasons that wee haue our Faith from the Greeke or East Churches not froÌ„ the Latine or West Church R. Nowe that is the point and I pray you once cleare it for I thinke if you euince that the Church of Rome in her best estate hath beene vnto vs a sister Church but no mother church C. My first Argument is from Petrus Cluniacensis Abbas writing to Bernard who affirmes that for seuen or eight hundred yeares after Christ the Scottishmen did celebraâ—e the Passeouer all this time after the Grecian maner not aster the Romane R. I vnderstand not that C. Then I will tell you it Soone after the dayes of the Apostles there happened a controuersie betweene the Churches of the East and West about the celebration of the Passeouer They of the East did obserue it the fourteenth day of the Moone that same day wherein the Iewes kept their Passeouer They againe of the West thinking they would haue no communion with the Iewes did celebrate it the next Sabboth after the fourteenth day Polïcrates with the orientall Bishops alledged the authoritie of Iohn Philip Policarp yea the prescript of the Euangell for their warrant Victor and the Bishops of the West alledged for their warrant Saint Peter Saint Paul Such as were more moderate misliked to see a Schisme in the Church for so small a matter Irenaeus iudgeth Obseruationes illâ—s esse liberâ—s Socrates Ostendit nec Victorem nec Policraten iustam habuisse causam de festo Paschatis tam odiose digladiandi Nam nec Seruator inquit nec Apostoli 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Seeing neither our Sauiour nor his Apostles by any Law hath commanded the obseruation thereof R. Truely it was a lamentable thing to see so sore a renting of the Church for so small a cause C. It was indeede and yet that in this controuersie the Churches of Britaine obserued the manner of the Easterne Church it is an argument they reuerenced the East Church for their mother from whome the grace of the Gospell had come to them R. It is indeede likely If these Churches had beene planted by Romish Doctors they would haue also receiued the Romish ceremonies C. But there is yet an other Argument Galsrid the Cardinall in his Storie of Britaine which hee wrote in the seuen hundreth yeare witnesseth that the Britans would not receiue Augustinus Iunior the Legate of Gregorie the great nor yet acknowledge any primacie of the Bishop of Rome ouer them An euident argument they esteemed not the Romish Church to be their Mother Church To cleare this you shall know that in the sixt hundreth yeare Gregorius magnus sent into England Augustinus Iunior to perswade the Church there to receiue the Romish ceremonies which to that day they had not knowne as Altars Images Vestiments Crosses wherein albeit hee had not such speedie successe as hee would yet at length did he obtaine it and intended also to effect the like in the Church of Scotland but was strongly resisted by Daganus and Columbanus Qui nullam in ritibus mutationem admittere voluerunt Againe in the seuen hundreth yeare a great schisme was in the church of Britaine some refusing the Ceremonies of the Romish Church keeping still their ancient custome for the which they pretended the authoritie of Saint Iohn the Evangelist Others againe embracing the Romish ceremonies which part waxed the stronger in that King Osuvius inclined to them Alway the matter was debated with so hot contention that from words it came to wepons and twelue hundreth Church-men were slain that refused the Romish Ceremonies this is all the good the Britaine Church got from the Popes Legate yet the euill rested not heere for at length in the eight hundreth yeare by thâ— perswasion of one Ecbertus this part of the Isle was also induced to receiue the Romish Ceremonies and thereafter their corrupt doctrine And thus did the Bishop of Rome first obtaine superioritie ouer vs and disgrace by his foolish inventions the glorie and sinceritie of the Churâ—h of Britaine By all this discourse which truely I haue made vnto you it may be evident how vainely and without a cause the defenders of the Romish Church brag of their ancient Primacie ouer all Churches and specially how far they wrong this Isle when they will haue Rome caled a mother to the Churches here which vnlesse you will adde one syllable cannot be admitted for indeed she is a Stepmother and in a word that Infamous Whoore of Babel who as shee hath corrupted the Churches with her abhominable Superstitions no maruell if shee hath at length infected vs also That Rome is Bâ—bel I will shew GOD willing in our next conference where we shall yet more abuÌ„dantly
by Augustine who expounding that place of the Apostle 2. Thes. 2. Adoccultuâ—â— Dei iudicium pertinet quòd impij ab Antichristo feducuntur It pertaines to Gods secret iudgement that the wicked are seduced by Antichrist Seducentur qui seduci merebuntur pro eo quòd dilectionem veritatis non receperunt They shall bee deceiued who haue deserued to bee deceiued because they receiue not the loue of the truth and yet more feareful is the sentence which he subioynes Iudicati seducentur seducti iudicabuntur when they are iudged they shall be deceiued and because they were deceiued they shal be iudged ouer againe they are first iudged by the iudgement of God secretly iust and iustly secret whereby now hee punisheth the sinnes of men deliuering them to the Spirit of errour that receiued not the loue of his truth and because they were deceiued they shall be iudged againe in that last and manifest iudgment to bee made by Christ Iesus who was vniustly iudge himselfe but most iustly shall iudge the World This Commentarie makes it cleare that Papistrie is not onely a sinne but a present punishment of God inflicted on man for sinne specially for contempt of the Gospell and a procurement of that fearefull wrath that is to come which if it were considered men would not esteeme Papistrie so indifferent a thing as they doe R. God be mercifull to them who yet are blinded with these errours and Lord make mee thankefull who hath begunne to deliuer mee from that darkenesse the Lord illuminate mee more and more with his light that I may know his way and may receiue grace to follow it C. Amen But now I remember I promised before to declare vnto you that Papistrie impugnes both the Person and offices of Christ and so in effect denies that Iesus the Sonne of Marie is the Christ. R. That is most strange C. It is indeede and yet it is true as you shalâ— perceiue if you goe through the principall Articles of our faith And first to begin at Christ person that of many wee may touch a few We beleeue that Iesus Christ is both God and man R. And who denies that C. You know that old Arriuâ— denied his Diuinitie and now Papistes denie his humanitie R. How can you say that C. Because they worshippe and adore a Christ who is not come in the flesh To cleare this I pray you consider that Canon of the Apostles 1. Ioh. 4. Beloved beleeue not euery spirit but trie the spirits if they be of God because many false Prophets are gone out into the World In this the spirit of God is knowne Euerie spirit that confesseth Iesus Christ to haue come in the flesh is of God There is a golden rule for vs and them both and marke there the opposition Euerie spirit that saith otherwise is the spirit of Antichrist R. Let it be so What is that against Papists C. Yea it is against them directly for the word teacheth vs to worship Christ Conceiued of the holy Ghost horne of the Virgine Marie But they worshippe Christ created by a Priest not conceiued by the holy Ghost a Christ whose fleshe is made of Breade by Transubstantiation whereby they destroy the Article of his Incarnation R. But they say it is the same Christ who was borne of the Virgin Marie C. If it bee the same Christ then must they grant that his flesh is not created of bread for that Christ borne of the Virgin Marie was made flesh of the seed of Dauid by the operation of the Holy Ghost but this Christ whom they worship in the Masse hath his flesh made of bread by Transubstantiation and they are not ashamed to call their Priest for this worke Creatorem sui Creatoris a Creatour of his Creatour R. But saith not our Lord that the Bread giuen in the Sacrament is his Bodie C. Yea indeede and so wee beleeue it is for it is no naked nor common bread that hoe giues vs there the giuing of that bread It is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Communion of his blessed bodie R. But if it bee Bread how can it be his body C. It is needlesse to demaund how Since he hath said it but I beleeue it is his body R. But may not Christ of his omnipotent power transubstantiate bread into his body C. And I pray you may not Christ of his omnipotent power and truth giue mee his body except hee turne bread into his bodie R. I dare not say so C. And you haue reason The Papists charge vs that wee denie Gods omnipotencie but the fault is theirs they denie his omnipotencie when they say hee can not giue vs his body in the Sacrament except hee make his body of bread Doe they not here limit the Lord R. Well I see it is great wisedome to ponder euery thing we beleeue in the ballance of Gods word I wold not haue thought there had beene sucâ—â—lasphemie against the person of Christ in that Doctrin of Transubstantiation as now I see that Canon of the Apostle declares plainly C. You may ioyne to this another testimonie of the Apostle Hebrewes 13. Iesus Christ yesterday this day and the same for euer R. What will that make against them C. That they are blinde to worship a Christ this daie who was not a Christ yesterday for you know they grant themselues that before consecration the bread is not Christ. R. It is true indeed C. Then you may perceiue it is but an artificiall Christ made by man whom they worshippe and not â—he true Christ. Thus you see how they are iniurious to his person for the which cause I said to you that Papists by necessitie of consequence denie Iesus the sonne of Marie to bee the Christ. Now to his Offices they are all comprised vnder the name Christ for he is the anoynted King Prophet and Priest of his Church R. And they will grant all that vnto you C. I know in word they will but in effect they take his Offices from him R. How can that be C. You shall see how what thinke you is the office of a Prophet R. To teach C. You say verie well and for this cause Christ is called the great Prophet raised vp among his brethren And the great Angell of the counsell of God who came into the World to reueile perfectly vnto the Church the will of God concerning mans saluation and Gods worship so that now once for all God hath spoken to vs in these last dayes by his sonne and we haue not to expect from any other any further declaration of his will R. I thinke no man wil denie that C. You shall heare how it is denied if first I make the point more clear vnto you you know that the father proclaimed from Heauen first at Iordan then at mount Tabor This is my welbeloued sonne in whom I am well pleased heare him See you not here how we are plainly commaunded to learne Gods will concerning our Saluation
of Christs ordinance and by their owne confession a plaine departing from Antiquitie What thinke you of this one instance R. I will aduise vpon it C. Doe so but I pray you fight not against the cleare light and remember that all bee it the Doctours of your Church pretend alwayes Antiquitie Antiquitie the â—athers the fathers yet this one instance among a hundreth prooues them to bee fathers oâ— nouelties what say yee Tell me like yee to heare any more of Vincentius R. I am content but let mee know â—irst what writer hee is and whose Translation is that C. He was a French-man he writ this Treatise in the fiue hundreth yeare of Christ and heere it is Translated by Ninian Winzet a Masse-priest of the Church of Rome which yee cannot refuse R. Reade on what sayes he further C. There is a commaund giuen to Timothie Deposâ—um serua which in all good reason should binde his successors Thus hee expounds it Keepe that which is committed to thee not that which is inuented by thee which thou hast receiued not which thou hast imagined wherein thou art no Author inuenter sorger but a keeper not a Law-maker but a Law-keeper not a guide but a follower saue that which is giuen thee saue the talent of Catholick faith vnbroken vncorrupt what thou hast receiued render it againe if thou hast receiued Gold render Gold againe slippe not in one thing in stead of an other for Gold lay not downe lead nor brasse R. I heare all that and I thinke hee writes like a sound Diuine C. Then take heedâ— the Apostle protests he dâ—liuered that to the Corinthians which hee had receiued from the LORD IESVS R. I know that C. Hee commanded Timothie and all others his successors in the worke of the Ministerie to doe the like R. And good reason so they should C. Then there is the point How is it that the Church of Rome takes on her this libertie to doe otherwise R. Wherein doe they otherwise C. Haue you forgot so soone Saint Paul deliuered to the people as wel the Cup as the Bread because hee receiued it from Christ Iesus how is it then that the Church of Rome takes away the Cup from the people R. Why May not the Church make Lawes C. No such Lawes as derogate to Christs Lawes for in that sense you heard Vincentius denie that they are Law-makers but Law-keepers I pray you giue place to the truth and consider how little cause they haue to bragge of Antiquitie who dare make the like of that Albeit Christ and his Apostles and the Primitiue Church did this yet we for good causes will doe othâ—rwayes R. Alway that is but one â—oint C. But seeing you cannot denie but they haue broken and corrupted the auncient Catholicke faith in one point you haue the lesse cause to beleeue or defend them in the rest vnlesse you wil incurre Gods curse threatned on them that pares or addes to his word R. The Lord saue me from his curse C. Amen but pray first that the Lord would saue you from the sin that deserues his curse R. God grant it C. And so I wish from my heart it may be But I pray you consider as in one Sacrament you are guiltie of sacrilegious paring so in both you are guiltie of sacrilegious adding and changing and so cannot â—schew the curse if you abide in Communion with the Church of Rome that now is R. How So C. As yee haue taken Wine from the Bread so yee haue added Water to the Wine which is a new inuention and forgerie albeit your Doctours to excuse it cast it on Alexander the first yet it is certain it was not in Christs institution and by your owne confessions was brought in many yeares after Christ and so should bee reiected as a noueltie R. That is but a smal thing and there may be many reasons to excuse it C. No not one Let no man bee wiser then God Who dare adde to the ordinance of Christ But you haue done worse in Baptisme adding Spittle Oyle and Salt to the element of Water was this done by Christ or his Apostles You father the Oyle vpon Siluester but confesse it was not vsed in the Church in Baptisme before him and so it is an other ancient noueltie R. It may bee they haue thought good to vse these for reasons and respects which I know not but this pertaines not to the substance of Baptisme and can not annull it C. I graunt they doe not annull Baptisme yet are they inexcusable who in the smallest thing dare alter the institution of Christ Are not his Sacraments the Seales of his couenant R. I confesse they are C. Why then since it is treason to pare or adde any thing to the forme of the Princes Signet is it not Sacrilegious boldnessâ— to pare or adde to Christs Sacrament But least you should thinke the controuersiâ— onely to bee about these things you shall know that except the Article of the Trinitie the Church of Rome hath left no Article of our Faith vncorrupted so that it is most certaine This Church of Rome with the doctrine and iurisdiction nowe maintained by her was not in the Primitiue Church R. O but I wil tell you what I once heard concerning that matter from one of their Doctors That there is a great difference betweene a Church in her infancie and her older and riper age For as it growes in age so may it and should it increase in many things which it had not in the infancie thereof C. Nowe I see you speake from such knowledge as the great labours of the Iesuites workes in the hearts of their captiues and because it is your last and greatest defence I will let you still see out of the words of Vincentius which you will like better then mine that this makes nothing for you R. Come on let vs see what sayes Vincentius C. He grants There should be an encrâ—ase in Faith but not a change of Faith R. That is a strange distinction and yet so honest that in truth I dare not gaine-say it C. Heare him then hee expounds the two parts of his distinction To encrease saith he is when a thing biding in it selfe is more amplified To change is when a thing going out of it selfe is translated turned into an other To make this cleare hee illustrates it by a proper similitude Let sayes hee the Religion of soules follow the nature of bodies which albeâ—t in processe of yeres they grow yet they remaine the same the same members the same Ioyntes are in Children which are in Men though in the one stronger and greater in the other smaller and weaker but if the shape bee turned in any forme not of the owne kind or any thing bee eked to the number of the members or taken from the same then either the body perisheth or becomes monstrous or at the least becomes weake So in Religion if wee shall begin to mixe noueltie with
thinke it goes very hard with them when their best Doctors can say no more in defence of Rome but it was Babel or it will be Babel that is either Antichrist sate there or will sett there C. I hope you shall thinke much more before you goe for now I will improue their distinction and let you see it is not Ethnique Rome vnder Emperours nor the Towne of Rome in the last time of the World that here is called Babel but the whorish Church of Rome gouerned by Apostated Popes R. Make that cleare and the cause is wonne Babel in the Reuelation is not Ethnique Rome vnder Emperours but Rome once Christian now corrupted vnder Popes C. It is euident S. Iohn prophecies of the state of Rome as it will bee in the dayes of Antichrist so sayes the Iesuite Viega Haec est quarta visio huius operis eaque illustrissima ad Antichristi tempora pertinens So also sayes the Iesuite Ribera a ca. 12. ad 21. Est huius libri pars secunda iota ad Antichristum eiusque tempora pertinet But the dayes of persecuting Emperours were not the dayes of Antichrist if they so say they destroy all their owne doctrine concerning Antichrist and therefore this prophecie of Babel is not to bee vnderstood of the Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours Secondly Ethnicke Rome as yet had not embraced the Gospell and was not married with Christ and therefore cannot be this Whore which Carthusian their owne man expounds to be An adulterous Whore You shall finde no people in holy Scripture charged with spirituall Whoredom but such as haue beene married with Christ none can bee Apostates from the faith who neuer stoode in the faith there must bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 before 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This whoorish Babel then can not be Ethnicke Rome vnmarried with Christ. Seeing themselues doe grant it is Rome it must bee Rome once Christian but now corrupted once Apostolicke standing in the faith now Apostatiâ—ke fallen from the faith Thirdly this Whore of Babel hath a cup in her hand full of abominations and the filthines of her fornicationâ— wherewith shee makes drunken the inhabitants of the earth By this golden cup Berengandus their owne man vnderstands Documenta erroribus plena And so this Babel can not signifie Rome vnder Emperors who subdued the world by force of Sword and plaine violence but must signifie Rome vnder Popes which hath deceiued the world by false doctrine and lying myracles Fourthly this Babel is called the mother of Whoredomes and abominations in the earth which not onely her selfe hath played the Whoore corrupting the true worship of God but hath inforced her corruptions and superstitions vpon othâ—rs Now it is knowne that olde Rome sought no more but subiection of bodies leauing the consciences of people free to any kind of worshippe they pleased They subdued the Iewes and forced them to pay tribute but left them to their owne Religion yea so farre were they from inforcing their superstitious worship vpon any nation that by the contrarie themselues were infected with the superstitions of all nations as is euident by their Pantheon which they erected in the honour of all Gods And so it is not Ethnicke Rome vnder Emperours which heere is called the Mother of whoredomes Fiftly the name of this Babel is mysterium in quo aliud cernitur aliud intelligitur Quia enim tot simulatis virtutibus decoratur non omnibus mulieris huius prauatas innotescet sed viris iusâ—is prudentibus So then by this Babel some mysticall enemie is vnderstood being indeede an enemie but in shew pretending friendship and therfore called afterward Gog and not Magog that is not an open and plain enemy as is the Turke But Gog a couered enemie for this cause figured also before by a beast with two hornes looking like a Lambe but speaking like the Dragon To this purpose sayes IEROME Simulabit se ducem faederis And Hilarius that Antichrist shall bee contrarie to Christ vnder a â—orme of fained and hypocriticall godlinesse And Chrysostome Antichrist must bee knowne by his doctrine not by his titles miracles nor words of godlinesse And therefore it is a silly defence of the Iesuites The Pope say they prayers humbly to God and calles himselfe seruus seruorum Dei therefore is not an aduersarie for the Question is not what he calles himsâ—lfe but what hee is But to hold vpon this point it is euident by what which I haue said that by Babel here is not meant Rome Ethnicke nor yet Rome which at the last shall rebell for both these are open enemies but Rome vnder Popes a mysticall enemie Sixthly in this Reuelation there are two women described the one Chap. 12. clothed with the Sunne which is CHRIST hauing on her head twelue Starres for a Garland the glorie of the true Church is the doctrine of the twelue Apostles and vnder her feete the Moone figuring this mutable world This woman as themselues confesse represents the true Church The other woman described Chap. 17. is arayed in Purple Scarlet Gold and precious stones voide of inward beautie and chastitie shee sets forth her selfe with all externall brauerie that shee may drawe many louers to her Now I say seeing the first woman signifies the true Church as themselues confesse and afterward is called the Lâ—mbes wife why doe they not â—ee that this whorish woman must signifie the false Church And since they grant that Babel is Rome what else can the whoore of Babel be but the whoorish Church of Rome And therefore their owne Doctours expounding that prophecie of Saint Iohn Babel is fallen and become an habitation of diâ—els Ribera expounds it of an externall desolation accâ—rding to that of â—say prophâ—cied of the first Babel The â—im and Zâ—m shall leape there But Viega Nobis etiam illud dicendum viâ—etur cum Arethâ Primasio Ambrosio Ansberto Haimone idololatriam eius vrbis significari desecturamque esse Romam a fide atque adcò futuram esse habitationem daemoniorum ob execranda slagitia iâ—olotriae superstitioneÌ„ expounds it also of Rome her falling from the faith which hee sayes is a thing which will be but we say according to truth is a thing that is done already the foretold defection is come Antichrist that man of sinne is discouered God by the breath of his mouth is dayly consuming him THE FOVRTH DAYES CONFERENCE Wherein is declared that ROME is the seate of Antichrist C. GOod morrow Sir how doe you to day R. The best I can C. It is most like you haue not rested well this night R. To say the truth Thinking on our conference made my rest the lesse C. It agrees but ill with you to heare the Church of Rome conuicted of Apostasie R. I thinke so indeede and still will so thinke till ye resolue this question what is the cause there being so many VVise and Learned men in the Popes Church that they cannot see
the truth and follow it C. Whether they see or see not I cannot tell you but you know what the Apostle sayes Brethren yee see your calling not many wise not many noble nor mightie men after the flesh are called but God hath chosen the foolish thinges of the World to confound â—he wise R. I knowe that is the Apostles saying but yet I cannot but maruell what should holde them backe from knowledge of the truth C. You shall cease to maruel if you conâ—â—der one thing R. What is that C. VVhen Christ shewed himselfe to the World how many of the Nobles and Learned Rabbins did know him Will you find any more among the Nobleâ— but Ioseph of Arâ—mathea Will you find any more among the Learned Pharisies but Nicodemus R. Truly not that I remember C. Was it then thinke you a good argumeÌ„t they vsed against Christ Doth any of the Rulers or Scribes beleeue in Christâ— but only this cursed people who knowes not the Law R. No indeed C. Bee not then moued with the like now Oh say the Papists how many Learned men are of our Religion Euery man naturall in things pertaining to eternall life is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without a minde till hee bee illuminate by grace were he in naturall reason as quick as Aristotle or in policie as Achitophel he is but a starke foole till he bee taught of God and therefore maruell no more that Learned Iesuites cannot know the truth then when you heare that Learned Iewish Rabbins could not know Christ when he was among them R. The Lorde then make vs thankfull for reuealing the way of life vnto vs which is hid from so many in the World C. Amen good Lord. And now for your further confirmation consider these testimonies I haue subioyned How the Fathers of the first ages point out Antichrist to come and warne vs to looke for him at Rome Let no man seduce you by any meanes for the day of the Lord shall not come vnlesse there come first a reuolt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and the man of sinne bee reuealed the sonne of perdition which is an aduersarie and extolled aboue all which is called God or that is worshipped so that he sitteth in the temple of God shewing himselfe as if he were God 2. Thessal 2.3 Now the mysterie of iniquitie worketh only he which now withholdeth will let it till he be taken out of the way C. What thinke you of this Prophecie R. I haue heard that to bee a falling away from the Roman Empire C. No Sir the most iudicious both Ancient and Recent expound it to bee a falling from the faith As for the Ancients see Augustine de Ciuitate Dei â—ib 20. Cap. 19. Nulli dubium est eum de Antichristo ista dixisse For the Recents see Aquinas on this place R. But granting it were so yet this Prophecie is of one single man and cannot be meant of the Popes of Rome C. No that is also a silly shift when your Church-men say that the Pope is Christ Vicar doe they meane any one single Pope R. No but the state or succession of Popes C. Very well and when wee say that the Pope is Christ opposite doe wee vnderstand this man or that man no truly but the whole state or regiment of them since their defection R. But I see not how this Prophecie either toucheth the Pope or the Church of Rome and if it bee meant of any defection from the faith it is meant of Luther Caluine and such as haue fallen from the Church of Rome C. Compare another Prophesie of the same Apostle concerning the sâ—me purpose and see how he expounds himselfe R. Where is that C. Here are his wordes 1. Timothie 4.1 Now the Spirit speakes euidently that in the last times some shall depart from the faith attending to Spirits of errour and Doctrine of Deuils and marke how hee subioynes some particular points of their doctrine which shall come in with the Apostasie to wit that they shall forbid mariage and command abstinence from meates which God hath created to bee receiued with thankesegiuing VVhat thinke you now whether doth this touch them or vs R. I know it cannot concerne you for you forbid none to marie that cannot containe C. Neither can this Prophesie bee cast backe vpon Heresies of the Marcionits and others neerest the Apostles dayes as the Iesuites doe to shift this Prophesie from themselues for the Apostles saye this Apostasie shall fall out in the laâ—t times And the former Prophesie saies that the Roman Empire must first bee taken out of the way then shall the Apostasie worke to the height as indeede it fell out that the seat of the Empire being translated to Constantinople the Emperour decreased the Bishop of Rome more and more increased so that it is not meant of Heretikes neerest the Apostles dayes but of such as shall rise after the decay of the Roman Empire And who tell mee hath growne by the decay of the Empire None but the Pope he hath his Imperial seat his robes his crowne his rents so that the Emperor except the name the double Eagle hath littlâ— or nothing of the Empire And therfore Aquinas who saw what was the meaning of that place moues the doubt What shall wee answere saies he seeing the Roman Empire is decayed how can we denie buâ— Antichrist is come To this he answeres we must say the Roman Empire is not away only the Temporall power therof is changed into a Spiritual what thinke you is there not good stuffe here R. In truth I thinke their cause the longer I heare you the weaker C. So may you But yet more to confirme you consider how the Ancient expound this Prophesie and still cast it vpon the Church of Rome Irenaeus Lib. 5. speaking of the number of the beasts name six hundreth threescore and sixe albeit hee plainly shew it is not his diuination but the accomplishment of the Prophesie which must finde out the number of the name and albeit he make mention also oâ— other names as Eâ—an and Teitan yet sayes hee sed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 valde verisimile est Tertullian contra Marcion Babylon apud Ioannem Romanae vrbis figura est proinde magnae regno superbae sanctorum Dei debellatricis Tertullian de resurrectione carnis see how hee expounds that part of the Prophesie Only he who now withholds let till hee be taken out of the way Donec de medio fiat quis nisi Romanus status câ—ius abscisio in decem reges Anti-christum superinducet tunc revelabitur iniquus c. Ambrose in 2. Thessal 2. Non prius veniet dominus quam regni Romani defectio fiat appareat Antichristus qui interficiet sanctos reddita Romanis libertate sub suo tamen nomine Et iterum Post defectum Romani imperij appariturus est Antichristus Cyril Cateches 15. Veniet Antichristus quum impleta fuerint
shameles then the other plaine contrarie as I remember to the Apoles doctrine Let not a Woman forsake her husband who beleeues not if hee bee content to dwell with her C. You take it vp very well and you may see how Papistrie breakes the band of fellowship betweene Husband and Wife R. I see it indeed and this resolues me of an other doubt for I haue maruailed often what should mooue so many Ladies to become Catholique Roman but now I see it is a plausible Religion for such Wiues as are male-content with their Husbands for it loosâ—th them from that subiection where vnto God hath bound them C. Take the third It disslolues the bands betweene the Father and the Sonne Pater qui filium habet haereticum exhaereditare tenâ—turâ— talem filium A Father that is a Papist and hath â— Sonne that is a Protestant he is bound to disinherit him Again Prâ—pter haere sin patris sâ—lij sunt sui iuris by the Heresie of the Father the Childâ— is freâ—d â—rom obedience R. Fie vpon them that maintainâ— such grosse positions C. Yâ—t there is worse following Haeretici fâ—iâ— vel consanguineinon dicantur sed â—â—xâ—alegem sit mâ—nus tua super eos vt â—undas sanguinem ipsorum Heretiques may not bee termed Children nor Kinsmen but according to the olde Law thy hand must bee vpon them to spill their bloud There are all the bands of Nature Affinitie Consanguinitie destroyed by Papistrie and they thinke it lawful for Papists to slaie their own Children or their Kinsmen if they bee Protestants What thinke you is it good dwelling with such Vipers and are our Protestants wise to make alliance by marriages with them R. In good faith I am ashamed in their behalfe and I think it no maruell you call Papistrie a Pest of Common-wealthes C. You shall heare but one and I will trouble you with no more It dissolueth the band of subjection wherin people stand bound to their Princes Subditi licitè possunt haeretico domino negare obsâ—quium Popish Subjects may lawfully denie obedience to a Protestant King Againe Non licet Christianis tolerare regem Haereticum It is not lawfull for Christians to tollerate an Hereticall King they may expell him depose him yea murther him And this they say is agreeable to the Apostolique Doctrine R. Away with it for it may rather bee called a Doctrine of Deuils who is the Father of lies Seditions Diuisions and Murthers C. And yet these are the common lessons which are taught and practised by the Doctors and Disciples of that whorish Church of Rome But how falsâ—ly they call this Doctrine Apostolique Consider what was the Apostles Doctrin concerning the obedience of people vnto their Kings Read there what Saint Peter saith R. I perceiue he bids honour the King and commaunds the people to submit them selues vnto the King as Superiour or vnto Gouernours vnder him C. Very well Tell me now who was King and Supreâ—me Gouernour when Peter wrote this was it not Nero a vile Monster a bloudie Persecutor yet you see Peter bids not depose him farre lesse bids he kill him Looke againe to the Fathers of the Primitiue Church see Iustine Martyr Deum solum adoramus in alijs vobis inseruimus laeti Imperatores Principes honum esse profâ—tentes simul precantes vt cum imperiali potestatem sanam quoque menâ—em obtinere comperiamini We worship God only in all other things we serue you with gladnesse acknowledging you to be the Emperours and Princes of men praying also that with your Imperiall power yee may haue a sound mind Here you see in all thingâ— except in matter of Gods Worship Seruice professed to the Emperour and Prayer made for such Princes as are contrarie minded to Christianitie but no treason neiâ—her taught nor practised The like hath Ignatius Caesari subâ—iti estote in ijs quibus sine periculo est ipsa subiectio Bee subiect to Caesar in all thinges whâ—rein you may without peril of conscience And Tertullian also Coâ—imus Imperatorem vt hoâ—â—inem a Deo secundum solo Deo minorem VVee reuâ—rence the Emperour as next and immediate vnder God hauing none but God aboue him Againe Christianis nullius est host is nediùm Imperatoris quem sciens a Deo suo constitui necesse est vt ipsum diâ—igat reuereatur honoret salvum velit cum toto Romano Imperio A Christian is no mans Enemiâ— farre lesse the Emperours Enemie hee knowes that hee is placed by the Lord his God and therefore it cannot be but he must loue him reuerence him honour him and wish his safetie and the welfare of the Empire Let Papists now bee ashamed to pretend either Apostles or Apostolique men as if they were Patrons of that pernicious Doctrine whereby they teach their people to murther Princes if they be contrarie minded to them in Religion R. Doe it if they will they haue good cause C. Now Sir because to morrow is the Sabbath if you please to goe to the Church I will come and goe with you R. I am vâ—rie well content and I thanke you for it THE SEVENTH OR SABBOTH DAYES CONFERENCE Wherein the order obserued in the Church of SCOTLAND is declared to be conforme to the ancient order prescribed by the Apostles and practised in the Primitiue Church C. GOod morrow Sir are you ready to goe R. When you please C. What Church wil yee goe to or whom of the Preachers desire you to heare R. Make you the choice I will accompany you C. Let vs goe then because you are a ftranger here you will pardon me to goe before and shew you the way into the Church and shew you where you should sit R. I thank you for it What is this the people are going to doe C. They bow themselues before the Lord to make an humble confession of their sins and supplications for mercy which you will heare openlie read out by the publikâ— reader Now when it is done what thinke you of the prayer R. Truly I thinke there is no thing in it but that wherunto eueriâ— good Christian should say Amen and it hath done me much good to see the people with humble reuerence sighing and groning accompanie the praier vp to God But what goe they now to doe C. Euerie one is preparing as you see their Psalme-book that all of them with one heart and mouth may sing vnto the Lord. There is the Psalme which the Reader hath proclaimed if you please you may sing with them or if you caÌ„not follow them in your heart R. So I will What doth the Reader now is he making an other praier C. No yonder booke which now hee open is the Bible you will heare him read some portion of holy Scripture Vndâ—rstand you what he saies R. Yea for sooth wel enough for hee reades very distinctly C. These are the three exercises which are vsed in all our