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A52036 An answer to a booke entitvled An hvmble remonstrance in which the originall of liturgy, episcopacy is discussed : and quares propounded concerning both : the parity of bishops and presbyters in Scripture demonstrated : the occasion of their imparity in antiquity discovered : the disparity of the ancient and our moderne bishops manifested : the antiquity of ruling elders in the church vindicated : the prelaticall church bownded / written by Smectymnvvs. Smectymnuus.; Milton, John, 1608-1674. 1641 (1641) Wing M748; ESTC R21898 76,341 112

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againe we reade of Elder and Elders Presbyter and Seniors in one Church Both those passages are upon record in the publike acts which are more fully set downe by Baronius ao. 303. Num. 15.16 17. As also by Albaspineus in his Edition of Optatus in which Acts the Seniors are often mentioned In that famous relation of the purging of Cecilianus and Felix there is a copie of a Letter Fratribus filiis Clero Senioribus Fortis in Domino aeternam salutem Another Letter is mentioned a little before Clericis Senioribus Cirthensium in Domino aeternum Salutem These Seniors were interessed in affaires concerning the Church as being the men by whose advise they were managed The Letter of Purpurius to Silvanus saith adhibete concl●ricos seniores plebis Ecclesiasticos Viros inquirant quae sunt ista Dissensiones ut ea quae sunt secundum fidei Praecepta fiant Where wee see the joynt power of these Seniors with the Clergie in ordering Ecclesiasticall affaires that by their wisedome and care peace might be setled in the Church for which cause these Seniors are called Ecclesiasticall men and yet they are distinguished from Clergie men They are mentioned againe afterwards by Maximus saying Loquor Nomine SENIORVM Populi Christiani Greg. Mag. distinguisheth them also from the Clergie Tabellarium cum consensu SENIORVM Cleri memineris Ordinandum These Seniors had power to reprove offenders otherwise why should Augustine say Cum ob errorem aliquem à Senioribus arguuntur imputatur alicui cur ebrius fuerit cur res alienas pervaserit c. when they were by the Elders reproved for their errors and drunkennes is laid to a mans charge c. So that it was proper to the Seniors to have the cognizance of delinquents and to reprove them The same Augustine in Psalme 36. Necesse nos fuerat Primianicausam quem c. Seniorū literis ejusdem Ecclesiae postulantibus audire Being requested by letters from the Seniors of that Church it was needfull for me to heare the the cause of Primian c. So againe Optatus who mentioning a persecution that did for a while scatter the Church saith Erant Ecclesiae ex auro argento quàm plurima Ornamenta quae nec defodere terrae nec secum portare poterat quare fidelibus senioribus commendavit Albaspin●us that learned Antiquarie on that place acknowledges that Besides the Clergie there were certaine of the Elders of the people men of approved life that did tend the affaires of the Church of whom this place is to be understood By all these testimonies it is apparent first that in the ancient Church there were some called Seniors Secondly that these Seniors were not Clergie men Thirdly that they had a stroke in governing the Church and managing the affaires thereof Fourthly that Seniors were distinguished from the rest of the people Neither wou●d we desire to chuse any other Iudges in this whole controversie then whom himselfe constituted Forraine Divines taking the generall Suffrage and practise of the Churches and not of particular men As for the learned Spanhemius whom hee produceth though wee give him the deserved honour of a worthy man yet wee think it too much to speake of him as if the judgement of the whole Church of Geneva were incorporated into him as this Remonstrant doth And for Spanhemius himselfe we may truly say in the place cited he delivered a complement rather then his judgment which in Dedicatorie Epistles is not unusuall Wee know that reverend Calvin and learned Beza have said as much upon occasion in their Epistles and yet the Christian world knowes their Judgement was to the contrary Little reason therefore hath this Remonstrant to declaime against all such as speake against this Governement as unlawfull with the termes of Ignorant and spitefull Sectaries because they call the Governement unlawfull had they proceeded further to call it Antichristian which he charges upon them they had said no more then what our eares have heard some of their principall Agents their Legati à Latere speake publikely in their visitations That how ever the Church of England be as sound and Orthodox in her Doctrine as any Church in the world yet in our Discipline and Governement wee are the same with the Church of Rome which amounts to asmuch as to say the Governement is Antichristi●n unlesse they will say the Governement of Rome is not so nor the Pope Antichrist SECT XVI NOw our Remonstrant begins to leave his dispute for the Office and flowes into the large pra●ses of the Persons and what is wanting in his Arguments for the Place thinks to make up in his Encomiasticks of the Persons that have possest that place in the Church of God and tels us that the Religious Bishops of all times are and have been they that have strongly upheld the truth of God against Satan and his Antichrist It is well he sets this crown only upon the heads of Religious Bishops as knowing that there are and have been some Irreligious ones that have as strongly upheld Satan and his Antichrist against the truth of God But the Religious Bishops are they that have all times upheld the truth What they and only they did never any uphold the truth but a Religious Bishop did never any Religious Minister or Professor preach or write or die to uphold the truth but a Religious Bishop if so then there is some perswasive strength in that hee saith and a credulous man might bee induced ●o thinke If Bishops goe downe truth will goe downe too But if wee can produce for one Bishop many others that gave beene valiant for the truth this Rhethoricall insinuation will contribute no great help to their establishment Nor indeed any at all unles he were able to make this good of our times as well as of all others which he assaies for saith he even amongst our own how many of the reverend learned Fathers of the Church now living have spent their spirits worne out their lives in the powerfull opposition of that man of sinne how many I sir wee would faine know how many that there are some that have stood up to beare witnesse against that Man of sin we acknowledge with all due respect to the Learning and worth of their Persons But that their Episcopall dignity hath added either any flame to their zeal or any Nerves to their ability we cannot believe nor can we thinke they would have done lesse in that cause though they had beene no Bishops But what if this be true of some Bishops in the Kingdome Is it true of all are there not some that have spent their spirits in the opposition of Christ as others have in the opposition of Antichrist are there none but Zealous Religious Prelates in the Kingdom are there none upon whom the guilt of that may meritoriously bee charged which others have convincingly and