the aunerent Doctors of the Church he laboureth and enforceth himselfe if he can relieue it through the ayde and helpe of the holy Scripture and taketh for his first defence and weapons the second booke of the Marchabees by occasion whereoff is intreated the difference which ought to be put betweene the bookes that are Canonicall those that are Apocryph And it is in like manner declared in what authoritie reputation that booke ought to be among the Christians Afterwards although peraduenture there shal be some matters which may seeme somewhat curious vnto some men yet neuertheles shall be spokē of the Limbes as wel of the auncient fathers as of the young children that are borne dead dead without circumcision baptisme of the difference which may be betweene thē which haue ben vnder the new old testamēt as wel little as great as wel quick as dead of their condition estate We do entreate of those things very amply bicause that many do moue questions that there is good prositable necessary points to be vnderstanded for to correct many errors abuses false opinions thuching those matters which are come among the Christians Ther shal be in like manner spoken of baptisine administred by womē declared by liuely plain reasons how Iesus Christ is the onely health satisfaction of all the elect children of God how the vertue efficacie of his death pasion extendeth it selfe frō the beginning of the world vnto the ende of the same Item what is the true baptisme of Iesus Christ the remission of sinnes the satisfaction worthy of the righteousnesse of god To what ende the god woorkes doe profit the Christian What is the iudgement of God vpon the good and euill and by what means some are deliuered and other some doe abide subiect Furthermore how the iudgement is alredy done vpon euery one and whether we ought yet to attend loke for it And how Hel and Paradise doe begin already in this world when their full and whole consumation shal bee It shal be in like manner declared how the place of the Machabees serueth nothing at all to proue the Purgatory And there shall be also declared of the manner by which the auncient people of God haue prayed for the dead and for the comming of Iesus Christ and wherein the Christians may follow it without speaking against the word of god It shal be also touched how in our time and by what meanes Sathan endeuoured himselfe to establish his Purgatory and the prayers for the dead and what maske instrument he hath chosen for to do that Wee doe call this Dialogue the Hels bicause that wee doe declare how many hel 's the Papisticall doctrine hath forged for vs and the lodgings and chambers that it hath there builded ¶ THE FIFTH DIALOGVE which is called the Hels EVsebius For as much as Thomas hath reserued for himselfe one part of this day for to make his Narration and of hys owne accord hath graunted vnto mée the greatest parte therefore it is good reason that hée do begin first Wherfore I giue him the choice whether he will go before or behinde Hillarius I desire for my part that Thomas doe rehearse first the cause of his enterprise and voyage For I doe much desire to heare it and vnderstand it Thomas Thou oughtest not to be much desirous of it For thou canst not heare of me any thing which is much worth Wherefore I am well content to holde my peace if you wyll For I feare greatly that after that you haue heard mée you will mocke me chiefly Hillarius who is so expert in that occupation I beléeue that it is the chiefest cause wherefore hée so greatlye desireth to heare my wordes Wherefore I thinke it best Eusebius that thou doe procéede-forwarde and prosecute thy intent For the matters that you haue to intreat off are better then those which you can heare of mée And in hearing you I may profite but in speaking I can but spende the time the which you wil employ and best nine to a better ende And therefore beginne and after if there be any spare time I will sée what I shal do Theophilus I beleeue that we shal haue time inough Feare not thē to begin sith y thou hast alredy told vs y thou wilt not be ouer long But thou wilt make vs finde the thing good For that cause dost loue to be entreated so much knowing that the more thou refusest to tel vnto vs that we demaund so much y more we desire it Thomas I haue regard vnto another thing I consider y which Salomon hath writtē saying if a foole do hold his tongue he shal be counted wise For he compareth man to a loohing glasse or a bell y which one doth know by the sounde whether they be broken or whole So in like manner may one iudge of man in hearing him speake whether hée be wise or foolish For one perceiueth the spirit of man in his word As his figure in a glasse and one may beholde in the same the nature of him as the complection of the body in his water vrine by which it is easie to iudge what drogues hee hath in the shoppe of his braine Hillarius Thou wilt that one should saye of thée that which a Philosopher once said of a certeine man y he did sée sit at a banket which spake not a word although y all the others did put foorth certeine questiōs gaue vnto him matter inough for to speake in his course If that man saith he be a wise man hée playeth the part of a foole if he be a foole he playeth the part of a wise man. Thomas I cannot well vnderstand that matter For me thinketh that it conteineth implyeth contradiction Hillarius He giueth therby to vnderstand that euen as too much speaking apperteineth vnto fooles ideots so alwaies to holde ones peace agréeth to beasts and not vnto men Wherfore ther must be a meane kept in all things Thomas That is the same to the which I pretend And I doe thinke that I speak ynough according to the place men with whom I am And bicause y I am not wise for to speak wel I wil at the leastwise thorow silence thorow silence counterfet the wise For it is cōmonly said it is euil to speak Latin before learned men When I am with ignoraunt men as my selfe I doe speake as a Doctor especially if I thinke that I haue the moytie of a dragme or scruple more of knowledge then they But when I come before you I doe loose by and by all my babling Hillarius Thou wouldest héere very gladly make an ende But thou must first declare vnto vs that thou hast promised Thomas Sith y thou vrgest mée so much thou shalt haue it But if thou doest mocke mée bée assured that I shall haue as good matter agaynst thee for
such as haue not knowen him in this world VVherevpon shal be entreated the place of Saint Peter touching the preaching of Iesus Christ vnto the deade to the spirits that were deteined in prison for the end conclusion of all those matters the funeralles of purgatory shall be celebrated and he shal be buried For that cause this dialogue is called the Requiescant in pace of purgatory For he is deade and buryed THE SIXT DIALOGVE WHICH is called the Requiescant in pace of Purgatorye THOMAS Although friend Eusebius thou hast resisted Theophilus and Hillarie as much as thou canst and that thou hast fought valyantlye yet neuerthelesse thou couldest not so vertuouslye defende thy selfe but that the forewarde the winges and the hornes of thy armye and almost all the whole hoast is discomfyted and ouercome there resteth no more nowe but the arrierewarde If it defende it selfe no valyentlyer and that it bée no better armed then the others thou shalt carry no good newes to the Pope of that combatte and thou shalt giue him no greate occasion to receiue thee among his Capitaines and to reward thée ritchly Eusebius I doe not fight for the Pope but for the trueth It is to me all one who d ee gaine or winne the battaile so that the victorie abideth with the trueth and that Iesus doe raigne in his Church Theophilus I am very glade for the good affection that GOD hath giuen vnto thée and that thou art not like vnto a heape and company of ambicious and glorious men who what so euer euill cause that they haue will neuer confesse them selues ouercome and vanquished but estéeme their glory more dearer then the same of Iesus Christ Eusebius It is verye true that at the beginning I was much offended with your wordes But when I considered that which I haue hearde of you I knewe not well to which side to turne You haue alreadye very much ouercome and fayled me neuerthelesse I haue yet many places of the holye Scriptures which holde me in suspens and leaue me in a greate scruple and doubt in my conscience vntill such time as thou hast shewed me by liuely euident reasons that I must vnderstande them otherwise then they haue béene expounded vnto me or else you shall be constrayned to chaunge your matter and to denye and vnsay all that you haue saide euen vntill this present time Hillarius Propounde them all by order and Theophilus wil addres guyde thée to the true vnderstanding Eusebius For to kéepe the better order I wyll beginne by the olde testament and afterwards will follow the newe after the order by which the bookes of the same are disposed and set alledging out of euery one of them the pointes which may serue to my matters I will put forth vnto thée that which Thoby commaunded his sonne saying Set thy breade and wine vppon the buriall of the righteous But thou wilt aunswere vnto me that that booke is Apocripha or onely Ecclesiasticall and not Canonicall as thou hast already done of the same of the Machabees Theophilus Truely I may aunswere thée so But although it were Canonicall where too would it serue for thy matter Eusebius Very well following the interpretacion of Eccius which expoundeth it of the Almoses for to refresh the poore that they should pray vnto God for the saluation of the deade Theophilus He that woulde followe the exposicions of Eccius there is not a place in the Bible which he hath not corrupted and marred for to make it serue to the popish tyranny In the booke of Thoby in that place there there is no mention made of praying for the dead And although those words preceded thervnto he ought rather to haue saide Set thy breade vppon the buriall of the sinner then vpon that of the righteous For the sinners shal haue more neede of such prayers then the righteous But he saith altogether contrarye For hée addeth eate and drinke not with the sinners and wicked The which is better expressed by the Greeke saying Set thy breade vpon the buriall of the righteous and giue it not vnto sinners Wherefore it is most likest to be true sith that before he hath spoken of Almoses that he recommendeth by those wordes chiefely the righteous and faithfull euen as saint Paul aboue all other recommendeth those of the houshold of faith Nowe there are many manners and wayes to bestowe ones breade and wyne vppon the burialles of the righteous The first is in burying them honestly as Thoby did without sparing that which was there vnto néedefull and requisite For the Hebrewes by the breade wyne and water doe vnderstande all the things necessarie vnto man and vnto mans life The other is when we doe helpe our bretheren succour so their necessities that they dye not for want of vittailes nor goe downe to the graue without being buried If we doe otherwise we kill them when we fâ—â—de them not and that they do dye through our default The thirde is when we comfort thorowe Almoses the children and friendes of the deade Then we shed foorth our breade and wine vpon their burialles behold the holy water that they desire And it is a great deale better to doe after that sort then to playe the glutton with the gluttons drunkerds and wicked But the manner of spech is somewhat obscure bicause that the booke notwithstanding that it was written in Greeke yet neuerthelesse it keepeth the phrases and manners of the Hebrew speach Hillarius He that will then followe the counsell of Thoby must no more banket and feast the Priestes sith that he forbiddeth to giue his breade and wine vnto sinners and the wicked For there is not a people vpon the earth of a more execrable life nor which do more abuse the goods which GOD hath giuen vnto man Amongst whom one may well accompt and number Eccius for one of the principallest Captaines of God Bacchus For he was very angry that day he was not dronken in Wherfore it is no meruaile if he woulde mainteine the spitt and the fryingpan But yet no ueil 〈◊〉 although he and all such as he is would presse and take the words of Thoby by the rigour without admitting any exposition confirmable and agreable to the worde of God it should haue had more colour for to allow the auncient custome which the Panyms had to cary breade vpon the burialls and to powre thereon wine euen as already hath béene spoken then for to proue the bankettes of the priestes and the prayers for the deade Neuerthelesse we are well assured that neither Thoby nor any other holy man but haue had regard not to allow such supersticious Eusebius Let vs leaue of Eccius and the pristes and answere me vnto that which is written in the booke of the Psalmes We haue passed thorowe the fire and water and thou hast drawen vs out and set vs in ioye and comforte Howe vnderstandest thou that place
suffering yet neuerthelesse the others which doe induce but to dishonour and blasphemye But also bicause that although that it bée permitted vnto many to reade them yet neuerthelesse they doe make none account of them bycause that eyther they séeme vnto them very obscure and so wayghtye that they cannot well vnderstande them or the tyme to longe and take no pleasure to reade bookes whiche haue not some merrye conceytes and delites for to make them pastyme For they are yet to carnall and finde no pastime in those bookes whiche speake but of GOD and of the health of the Soule if there bée nothing for the fleshe the which they woulde onely keepe There is no doubte but that malady or dysease is very perillous and that suche vicious and corrupt Natures doe very muche displease GOD sith that they haue so lyttle reuerence of him and hys woorde and that they preferre the poyson before the good meate Neuerthelesse bycause that amongest suche one maye yet finde some whiche are not altogeather peruerse and malicyous but that they haue yet some seede of the feare of the LORDE in them mée thinckes that wee muste not altogeather dyspayre and abanoon them as sicke folke that are incurable but that we must yet proue to winne them if it bee possible and to transfigure and chaunge them into al formes and shapes for to induce them to reade the holy Scriptures and to giue vnto them some tast For if we can conuert into good vses the meanes by the which the Diuell gyueth himselfe to drawe away man from the word of God and to robbe him altogether and holde him in the vanities of this worlde and may vse them as a baite on a hooke for to draw them from such vanities and to incitate and prouoke them to the studye of the truth me thincketh that wée doe nothing vnworthy of the office of a Christian man For euen as the holy Apostle hath bene made all vnto all men and doth applye and giue himselfe vnto euery one in all that which was possible for him without béeing against the will of God making himselfe a Iew vnto the Iewes and a Gentile vnto the Gentiles So me thinketh y by good right I may doe the lyke so that I do not altogether forget the Christian modestie and the honour and reuerence that the Christian oweth vnto the woorde of god For if the bawdes of Sathan endeuour themselues through faire and goodly delites and merry conceites to destroy the poore and silly soults the espowses of Iesus and to drawe them away from him for to make them serue him and to forsake their master shall it not be lawfull for vs to vse an other practise and cunning for to let theirs for to discouer and vnhide their filthinesse for to make them appeare to be abhomination to all the world and to retire and drawe backe the soules from his stewes for to ioyne them agayne with Iesus Christ their Sauiour If a paysoner doe couer and hide his poison with some delicate meate for to poison and murther men shall it not be by more iust reason peruntted to a Phisiâ—ion to mingle suger and hony amonge the wormewoode and the bitter Aleos for to sweeten a little the bitternesse of these drinckes Which notwithstanding that they are bitter in the mouth are yet neuerthelesse healthfull to the boote For if such holy deceits are worthy of praise to the Phisitions of the body wherefore shal it be despised to the Phisitions of the soules I would to GOD that he had giuen vnto vs the grace to deceiue so all the worlde for his profite and health For the diseased is happie which is deceiued by the Phisition to his health and healing which is the ende to the which both the one and the other doe pretende both the Phisition and the diseased I know very well that there bée already many bookes written which doe muche discouer abuses and which doe sufficiently mocke the vaine ceremonies idolatries and superstitions which are amonge the Christians but that sufficeth not except one doe teach what is the veritie and what is a firme and sound doctrine The which many haue already done but bicause they séeme and appeare too seuere and graue vnto those with whom wée haue chiefly to doe they reade them not and doe profit nothing There are others which haue followed a manner to write altogether contrary vnto those For euen as those haue regard to none other thing but to entreate of the woorde of God with all grauitie modestie and reuerence adressinge their writinges vnto people of good iudgementes and of temperate sences and full of the feare of GOD These héere vnto the contrary haue not taken their sight but to the white and marke of mans vanitie and curiositie and haue purposed to absteme themselues from all waightie honest and holy matters and to write onely of follyes merry conceites iestes playes and pastimes as of fooles morishdauncers scoffers and iesters And if they woulde holde themselues within those limits they were the more tollerable But many are not content to playe the fooles amongest men although that that office is scant méete vnto an honest man doe yet worse For they giue themselues but to scurrilitie and doe thincke that they cannot sufficiently inough delite men except their deuice bée altogether full of ruffenly talke and bawdry of vilanies and blasphemies not onely intollorable to the Christians but which shoulde bée iudged woorthy of grieuous punishmentes amongest the Iewes Turkes Panims and Infidels For if the Gentiles and Panims haue not taken and accompted for honest men and worthy to bée aduaunced into anye honourable office in a common wealth the Morishdauncers Maskers Iuglers Players Mummers and Iesters what honour is that vnto Princes and vnto Christian people to take delyte not onelye in such men with their bookes but in others a great deale more detestable and more ruder in all filthy and vyle woordes as the ruffians of the stewes and denyers of god Doe wée thincke that Iesus Christ hath sayde wythout a cause that for euery idle woorde that men shall speake they must render accompt at the day of iudgement Sith that the trueth which lyeth not telleth vs the same so cléerely and doth meanace and threaten that wee muste render an accompt for euery idle word that is to say which is vaine and vnprofitable whiche serueth nothing at all to the glorie of GOD nor to any edifyinge of our neighbour Doe wée thincke that our ribalde and bawdye talke backebitings euill speakings vnaduised slaunderous and infamous woordes which doe serue to none other ende but to peruerte the vnderstandings of men to adde or heap euil vpon euil to cast oyle into the fire and to bring towe the better to inflame mans conscience vnto all wickednesse and abhomination and vnto the which it is alreadie too muche inclined Doe wée thincke that suche languages shall not come to an accompte and that
they cannot agrée together and it is impossible that the one can endure continue with the other sith that the one purgeth without money through the onely grace of God and the other is an insatiable goulfe which melteth consumeth all the golde siluer of the world neither purgeth it the sinnes but maketh all those guiltie of hell fire that séeke in it their purgation Hillarius I doe compte him to be foolish mad that had rather consume and wast all his substaunce for to buy hell then to receiue Paradise fréely which shal cost him nothing Thomas In hearinge you speake I am greatly estonied to see how men haue chaunged their nature For they do all willingly runne to the best chepe there is none but bad rather receiue good merchaundise if it coste nothinge then to buy the bad very deere or poyson for to kill in steede of bread which ought to nourish which shall be presented and offered vnto him without money Theophilus And yet neuerthelesse wée doe sée the same put in practise euery day wherein we may well know how God hath taken away the sences and vnderstanding of men who doe take such great pleasure to destroy themselues and to lose both their bodies soules and goodes For they are mad to runne after the priests for to buy death and refuse life which is presented vnto thē fréely and thanckfully by Iesus Christ Hillarius I beléeue it well behold the cause wherefore al these collyars and kitchin men who doe liue vpon that fire haue endcuoured themselues as much as lyeth in them to quench out altogether the fire of the gospel of Iesus Christ which quencheth putteth out theirs bicause that it is more vehement and more violent and consumeth it into Asshes Thomas Is it then true that it is quenched euen as you say and that there remaineth nothing whole Theophilus There remaineth yet some chamber or cabine which are not yet all burned But sithence that once the fire of Iesus Christ hath begun there to kindle it will not cease vntill such time as it hath consumed it all into Asshes for that is a fire which none can quench Hillarius I do much meruaile that they doe not all runne for water to cast vpon it Whereto serueth their holy water wherefore doe they not no we make it to shew his vertues as well as against the lightninges tempestes when they coniure them Theophilus They do cleane contrary For euery one runneth to the fire to the fagots to the brimstone to the lights to the bellowes for to make it the more to burne And they are so hot after it that there is neyther King Prince Lord Bourgis Merchaunt or Labourer whom they do not prouoke to blow their fire to cast on fagots in such sort that it is become so great that men doo sée in many places that it is like to consume those that bée aliue Thomas Can they quench it by that meanes Theophilus You are not deceiued hath the fire of men vsed to quench the fire of God No but they doe kindle it dayly more and more Hillarius I know the cause wherefore they doe it They do greatly feare least those Lutherians and heretickes should not be dampned and that they should not go into hell sith that they denie the Purgatory and that they will not enter therefore they woulde make them to féele it in this world and to purge them from their sinnes to put them in Paradise against their wils They doe well declare thereby that they differ from the Persians who will not burne the dead bodyes as the Greekes Latines do bicause they hold the fire as a God and they thinck that it séemeth that it was much vnséemely for his maiestie to defile himselfe with dead bodies and to nourish him with flesh But these héere do giue him none other meat but do sacrifice to him men as the Idolatres dyd God Moloch Pluto Saturnus and dyd nourishe them wyth mans fleshe But one maye replye vnto mée and saye that they dyd vnto him that honour to nourishe hym wyth lyue flesh Theophilus I am not so much amazed to sée them doo that as I am to sée how they make the princes lords their hangmen putting into their hands those whom they would haue to be executed Hillarius They shewe themselues to bée the successors of those who sayde vnto Pylate speaking of Iesus Christe we haue a lawe and by our lawe he ought to dye But it is not lawfull for vs to put any man to death And therefore they praye ayde of the seculer power the whiche men dare not refuse I doe thincke that many Princes Lordes doe feare least it happen vnto them as it happened vnto Nicanor the preuost of Alexander against the Bactrianians The Hircanians and Bactrianians did vsually giue vnto the dogges those that were very olde and did thincke it to be the best burying For that cause the common people nourished vp common dogs for that purpose and the riche men tame and demesticall dogges for to serue them for that purpose And therefore they called them in their language the dogges of Sepulchres or graue dogges Then when Nicanor was come vnto the Bactrianians hée endeuoured himselfe to reforme and correct that vile custome and execrable crime But he could neuer take order to reforme it but to the contrary as witnesseth sainct Hierome they did rise againste him in such sort that he had almost lost his kingdome Now if we will consider the thinges and way them well what are in these daies our Priests and Moonkes who do liue vpon carrion as the dogs of the Sepulchres doo For that cause I thincke that Rosset the Poet of Sauoy called the dogges the Chanons of mount Faucon as I haue heard him oftentimes say in his lessons Sith thē they haue vsed to eat mans flesh it is no meruaile though men do feare them that they féede them deintely as they doe in Hircania For there is not almost any great house but hath his domestical dogs besides those that are kept fed commonly in euery towne village Theophilus I doe much doubt that the same that they are afraide off will happen vnto them sith the they wil set no good order according to the power that God hath giuen vnto them I do greatly feare that in the ende those dogs wil dououre thē altogether For they haue already wel begun Hillarius Me thincks that they take the Pope for Moloch Pluto or Saturne whō men cannot appaise without sacrificing vnto them men The Pope woulde bée called our holy father but that is such a father as Saturne was who did eat his owne children if the Poets haue not lyed but yet Rea his wife hid them from him and kept them the he should not eate them But the court of Rome the papisticall Church who would be called our holy mother Church doth
carried to the earth vpon a goodly Béere with great magnificence and pomp the which the Satyrical Poet hath comprised in a few verses speaking of those which through their excesse and for that they follow not the counsayle of the Phisitian and kéepe not good dyet doe kill themselues saying With such like train they march before with trōpe torches bright To guyde the rich man to his graue a goodly gorgeous sight Who on a curious coffin lyes mourners beare his beere And all his friends bewayle his death with sad mourning cheere On the contrary parte if there doe dye any poore man or anye younge childe or man of small callynge they doe bring him simply with a lyttle procession and a small company and the most times in the night for the causes which already before haue bene touched and they hadde but one lyttle Flute Of which among others the Poet Statius doth witnesse it wryting of Archanorus after this manner But when poore men or children dye their buriall is not braue A lyttle Flute doth serue their tourne to bring them to their graue Sith that we are fallen into the talke of the Flute I doe remember an history that Plinie maketh mencion off of a Rauen that was at Rome who had learned to speake insomuch that euery morning he went into the open stréets and saluted the Caesars to wytte Tiberius Germanicus Drusius by their proper names and also the people of Rome For which cause he was so wel beloued that when he was dead the people of Rome put him to deathe that had killed him and made such great sorrow and lamentations that they celebrated funeralls and pompes for him so that he was carryed to the graue vppon a goodly beere very trimly decked adorned the which two Aethiopians or black Moores did beare vpon their shoulders with a great number of garlāds crowns of flowers a Fluter which played vpon the Flute before vntil they came to his graue Thomas Is it possible that the Romaynes who haue ben so greatly estéemed thorow out the whole worlde to haue bene so foolish Hillarius They witnesse it themselues by their owne historyes and you must vnderstand bicause that the deade body was blacke it was carryed by two Aethiopians or blacke Moores as he was But if they had had of lacopins Augustines or Moonkes of the order of Saint Bennet they had bene a great deale fitter for that office and so the Rauens should haue carryed the Rauen to the graue and should haue put him in the Paradise of the Rauens And doubte not that if the Rauens Dogs and Asses had wherewith to bury them and that the Priestes might get so much money from them as they doe from the rich men that they woulde spare them no more then they doe the rich and would haue no more pittie and compassion of their soules then of the soules of men I doe meruayle of nothing but of this that the Romaynes vsed rather the Flute in those funeralls of the Rauen then the Trompette sith that in all the rest he was buryed as solemly as the rich men be And what doe our Priestes If any great Usurer be dead they runne by and by to the great bell There is not a Church nor parishe but that all the belles are walking insomuch that they make a greater noyse then the Cyclopes doe with their Hammers and Mallets I would counsell them to doe as the women of the Lacedemonians did when their king was dead who did runne about the country sounding and tinging of fire pannes pots and basins as men doe after Bées when they swarme for to declare the death of their king After that the belles are once set in order a ringing behold frō all quarters do come Moonks Priests white gray blacke smokid of al colours as Owles and Shrichowles Rauens Eagles Wolues and Dogges doe after carren and they haue no néede to shaue themselues as the Panims doe for to lament and be sorrowfull For they are already shauen of themselues as the Priestes of the Babilonians Aegyptians and the Priestes of Isis are and are clothed wyth lynnen white shirts as they are They doe serue for all In stéede of Minstrells singers wéepers and lamenters And euen as those Panim Minstrells did sing pittifull and lamentable songs and the euill fortunes of men for to comfort the parents euen so haue these our Priestes and Moonkes turned the booke of Iob into suche lamentacions and complaynts Theophilus Neuerthelesse it is concluded in the counsell of Tholet that those which are called of the Lorde from this worlde ought to be carryed to their graue onely with singing of Psalmes the rather to witnesse and declare that they doe not so mourne and lament as the Panims doe then for any other thing and also to declare the hope of the resurrection Hillarius There was more appearaunce in that which the Idolaters did for they did sing in a language vnderstanded of all men if the songs did not serue any thinge to the dead yet at the least they serued somewhat to those that were alyue But the roaring and bellowing of our Priests and Moonkes doe serue neyther for the one nor the other but onely to accroche and gette to them money and to cause it to come as the Birdes to the call except peraduenture they woulde alleadge the reason of Macrobius which sayth the men do accōpany the dead to the graue with singing bicause the panims beléeue after the the soules are seperated from y bodies they doe follow that swéet harmony wyth the same goe vp to Heauen For monye were of the opinion of Herophilus Dicearchus and Aristoxenus of whom Cicero maketh mention who sayd that the soule was not altogether nothing or onely a harmony the which taketh pleasure with that pleasaunt singinge and melody and goeth wyth it And God graunt that these héere doe beléeue the soules to be immortall and that they may haue a better opinion then those had And also as touchinge the torches that the Panims carried ther was some honest cause wherfore For they carried them partly for to kindle woode that was prepared for to burne the dead bodyes withall bicause that when they were come to the place appointed ordained for the same the néerest of kin did take one of those torches and kindeled the fire as Virgile hath sufficiently declared it speaking of the burying of Misenus after this manner In mourning sort some heaue on shoulders hye the mightie beere A dolefull seruice sad as children doe their fathers deere Behinde them holding bronds thē flame vprising broad doth spred And oyles and dayntyes cast and Frankensens the fire doth seede Also in some places they haue néede of them bycause that they doe bury them in the night after the law of Demetrius Phalereus who hath so ordayned it for to correct the superstuous pompe and
the auncient Priestes of the lawe vnto whome GOD hath forbidden it For if they woulde bée Iewes and followe them in older thinaes they oughte also to followe them in thys or to yéelde a reason wherefore they followe them in one thing and not in an other Hillarius they had rather to followe the Gentyles and Panims in this behalfe For their Ceremonies and superstytions doo bringe vnto them more profite the which they followe notwithstandinge they are nothing worthe as I haue alreadye sayde Wherefore I thincke that they would haue made to others a lawe gathered out of all that whiche was euyll and wycked Theophilus It is then easelye to bée vnderstanded by all those thinges that the prayse that Neomi dyd gyue vnto Ruth sayinge The Lorde deale as kindlye wyth you as ye haue dealte wyth the dead And vnto Booz in lyke manner praysinge hym for that hée hath kepte for the deade that same grace and lyberalytie as he did vnto the liuinge regarding not the Masses prayers songes and sacrifices whiche they haue done for them But the loue and charitie that they haue shewed towardes the parents and friendes of the dead that be liuing Wherefore the holy Scripture declareth what mercy we ought to haue of the dead and what good déedes God requyreth of vs for them The prayers offerings and good deedes that Ruth that good wydowe did make for hir husbande that was dead was that she kept company faith and loyaltie wyth Noemi hir Mother in lawe hir husbandes mother A poore widowe both of husbande and children as shée hirselfe was she comforted hir in hir afflictions and aduersities And nourished cherished loued hir was attendaunt vpon hir in hir olde age as though she had bene hir owne mother In like manner the grace and loue that Booz hath also kept done vnto the sonnes of Noemi as well to those that were dead as to those the be liuing that is that euen as during their life he hath exercised loue and charitie towards them in cherising and comfortinge them the lyke affection hath he kept towardes them after they were deade And when he coulde no more ayde and succour them and that they had no more neede of him hée hath declared his loue that he dyd beare vnto them towardes the wydowes mothers and wiues of whome he hath had pittie and compassion hath hulpen them both in body goods procuring wyth all his power the honour and profite both of the one of the other vntill he did take to wyse that poore widowe Ruth the Moabite which was y graundmother of Dauid and hir remembraunce is celebrated with the same of Booz hir husbande in the gonealogy of Iesus Christe Wherefore we may knowe howe much the woorke bothe of the one of the other hath pleased God what remembraunce we ought to haue of the dead Thomas I doe finde that to bée the best waye to bestowe and giue the almose vnto the poore widowes and fatherlesse children for that is the true Religion then for to take their goodes and bestowe them vppon the dead or to waste and consume them vppon bawdes and harlots and vpon their children in like manner Hillarius I warrant you they will not followe any good example nor the certeine commaundement of God but what do they follow in this matter When I haue wel read ouer and ouer againe all the holy Scripture I doe not finde one worde And the most auncientest that I can finde which did first bringe in those manner of dooings among the Panims was Pluto of whome we will speake off héereafter whome the Docts and the Panims haue made the God of the soules and the king of the dead and of hell After him came Aeneas who did bringe that custome into Italy After Aeneas Romulus and Numa the Kinges of the Romaines afterwardes our Popes who haue contynued augmented and confirmed still more and more those errours and abuses Althoughe that the Panyms hadde yet a certeyne better opynion in the same then our superstitious Papystes hadde For they dyd not make the sacryfices for the deade for the estymation that they hadde that that shoulde serue them for to deliuer them from paines but for to appease them to the ende that their spirites shoulde not hurt them and doe them euill if they had displesed them when they were aliue For Plato himselfe who hath bene the one of the chiefest forgers inuenters of Purgatory witnesseth plainely that the parents friends cānot profit y dead And therfore saith he the parents friends and kinsslolkes ought to admomshe their friends that they do liue well and honestly and to do presently vnto them that good For there to wytte after this life they cannot giue it thē And before the iudgement seat there shall not be any great company of parents friends which shall mainteine and defende and intreate y Iudge and which canne obtaine of him that he wil pardon thée Theophilus I would to God that all our diuines bad no more euill and wicked opinions then that panim touching the dooings of the dead and that they had saide noe sentence lesse to be credited then this Thomas If the panims did not meane y their sacrifices commemoration should profit the dead wherefore did they it then Hillarius It might be that they did thinke that there might retourr◠vnto them some little profit But yet neuerthelesse their cheife intent and purpose was to appease the soules of the dead and to reconcile them vnto them by that meanes to the end they should not hurt them either in their bodies or goods euen as they haue accustomed to celebrate scasts and to do sacrifices vnto the soules of holy men whom they did think to be in heauen with the gods for to haue ayd and solace as Aeneas did vnto his Father Anchises And all that errour procéeded from the false opinion that they had of the soules and for want of knowing their nature and estate therefore they iudged after their owne sence and vnderstanding and not after the word of god As they do also of the bodies thinking at the least the most supersticyous as it hath bene alreadye touched that the soule doth walke a certaine time if their bodyes hath not bad y honor of the burial such as apertameth was meete for them And that the bodies were in daunger of Enchantors and sorcerers which would abuse them thorow their Nycromancic coniuration And the Hebrewe Rabins and doctors of the Iewes and in no lesse dreaming For they say that the dead body is left in the power of the diuell who calleth him selfe Zazell and doe wrest and turne those places of the scripture for to confirme their erroure vnto whom it is said vnto the Serpent Thou shalt eate of the earth all the dayes of thy life And in another place The earth shal be the Serpents meate They woulde conclude
Ringing of belles 68 To ring for the time 75 Rule of the diuine seruice for the dead 63 Ruth and Booz 97 Ruth and Noeâ—â— 100. S. Diuers sacrafices the dead for diuers causes 10â— Sacrafice of Iesus Christ 48 Salt in the baptisute 35. Salt of wisedome â—5 Salt of the worde of God. 35. Salt of the Priests 35. Salting and seasoning of fooles 35 The salutation of the souldier vnto the holy fathers 39 Sampson and Dauid 94. The efficacie strength of Sathan 106 Satiffacion for sinnes 8â— Saturne and Rea. 59. All sauors are good so that money doe come 41. The sclpunder of the Pharises 18. Shepheards feeding themselues â—1 Scotlande and Irelande 27. Sellyng of offices 43. Sellying of the buriall 54. Senna therib 94. Sennacherib Romaine 94. Sepulcher of Iesus Christ 53. Sepulchers infatiable 52. White or paynted sepulchers 52. To sing after the dead 87. Singing of Masses 41. Signification and definition of an heritiche 60. Signification of belles 71. 74. Signification of hell 17. Signification of the deepe lake 89. Signe of the crosse 102 Sillogismus in Darif 51 Simonse and Simoniackes 53. Sinnes of Princes 30. Sinnes of the simple people 30. Sinnes of Princes and Cyronts 29. Siticines 66. Soppe in the throate 51. A soule drawenfrom hell 90 A soule taken in a net 89. To what serueth the washings of soules 36. The spertell of the priests 35. The spertell of Iesus Christ 34. To sprinkle the sepulchers with water 37. The spirite the author of purgatory 29. Stella Clericorum 48. Stephen the sixth 88. Stlgmates 103. Stile of the holy Ghost 18 Stix 9â— The Philosophicall stone 55. Stiffocations 36 Supper 42. T. Tanners of mens skinnes 65. Tannefat of the Priests 64. Temple of God. 49. The cause of the temptacions of y elect 1. Tempus 31 The Poeticall Theologie 24 Thuringie 26. Three differeÌ„ces of sinnes the diuersitie of the payues 31 Tibicines 66 Time of Gregory 96 Time of pestilence 36 The tyrant of tyrants and the pillers of the vsurers 30 Torches and candells at the burialls 33. Torches at the funeralls 70. Troianus delyuered from hell 9â— Tree of lyfe 90. The true science and cloquence 7. Tribute of the brine and of y stewes 41 Tribute of victualls of proces 42 Tribute of get pence and whores 42. Tribute of Moriages 42. Tribute of players 42 The papistical tribute of victualls 42 Tribute of whoores 43 Tributaries of Priests 54. Trophonius denne 27. V. Vealegon arder 51. Valut Canis é Nylo Prouerve 6 The vertue of the truth 30. The vertue of the habite of S. Fraunces 105. Vespiliones 65 Voyatge of Saint Patrickes wells 26. Vino rogum ne respargito 38. Vse holy water at burialls 101 Vow of Herode 81 W. To be in the way 35. Waters of Aegypt 95. Water of tribulation 94. Holy water 34. Holy water vnprofitable 88. To watch the dead 104. The olde woemen that doe keepe the children that be borne dead 44 Weeping of the Crocodile 64. Whoredome 81. Widow askng counsayle of the bells 72. Canon witnesse 24. Too wise or ouer wise 13. Holy woode 75. Idle worde 9. What good workes God requireth for the dead 100 Good works don to the dead by Booz 100 Workes of mercy towards the dead 97. What workes doe follow the dead 85. What workes God requireth of vs and to what ende 83 Workes of Angells and the elect 84. Workes done for vs after we be dead 85 Z. Zazel or Azazel a Diuell 101. FINIS TABVLAE ¶ THE SECOND PART of the Christian disputations By Maister Peter Viret Translated out of French into English by Iohn Brooke of Asshe next Sandwich MATHEVV XV. A. IX ¶ In vaine they worship me teaching doctrines which are nothing but mens precepts MIEVLX VAVLT MOVRIR EÌ„ VERTV QVE VIVRE EN HONCTE ¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas East THE SVMME OF THE third Dialogue IN this thirde Dialogue by reason that Eusebius mainteineth and vpholdeth that the Prayers and Sussrages for the dead are of Gods ordinaunce and of the institution of the auneient Church it is intreated off very amply by Theophilus and Hillarius and shewed out pointe by pointe of what originall and beginning that did first begin by whom it was begun and hath bene augmented as well amonge the Panims as the Iewes and Christians And what hath bene the customes and ceremonies of the one the other as well in their mourning and sorrowing for the dead as in their Anniuersaries Feastes Obsequies for the dead And bicause that there is great conformitie betweene the feastes dedicated vnto the dead as well among the Panims as the papisticall Christians we will declare euidently by conferring the one with the other not onely the agreeing that these feastes haue togother but also that which is amongest many other ceremonyes ioyned with them and depending vpon them The which haue bene borrowed of the Panims by the papisticall Christians or at the least wife the imitation is so cleere and euident that there is none but that he may easely iudge that they proceeded all from one spirite For to manifest and declare then thys same the better and for to make it the playnelyer to bee seene we will declare pointe by pointe the conformityes which are betweene the one and the other touching the diuerse feastes and dayes dedicated vnto the deade and touching the forbiddinge of marriage at certeine times Afterwardes the conformitie of some feastes and Idols of the Panims and Papistes and the feast of the candels and diuers purisications obserued of the one part and of the other And the consecrations of Torches Waxe Waxcandles Salt holy Water Fire Asshes and many other suche diuers matters by the which euory one may easely iudge who hath ben the authour of the popish Ceremonies and what difference there is betweene the auncient Panim Rome and the Romish Church such as it is at this present We doe call this Dialogue Anniuersaries or yeares mindes bicause that it maketh mention of many Ceremonies which yearelye haue bene obserued among the superstitious and Idolaters about the dead as of the straunge Gods. ¶ Now for to enter in the matter Theophilus beginneth after this manner THE THIRD DIALOGVE which is called Anniuersaries or yeares mindes THeophilus I am very glad bicause that you are all come in so good time chiefly of Eusebius For I greatly feared that he was offended with our talke and dysputations that we had yesterday But as farre as I can perceiue not with standing that he be very much rooted in his olde opinions superstitions yet neuer thelsse I know that he differeth much from a heape of obstinate and wilfull fooles which haue no reason at all to defende their cause nor know howe to take any other weapons then opinions and obstinations for to fight against the truth neither know how to finde any other meane to vanquish it and to reuenge themselues thereoff then to hurt and wrong those which do
deade which were truely Christians And hath commaunded that the Priestes ought to make commemoration of them Dne may very well presume by that aduertisement and commaundement that which Gregory made vnto Boniface touching this matter that it is not long agoe that the Masse hath begonne to bee a sacrifice for the dead and that the institution is not so auncient as some men do thinke it to bee at the least-wise that Iesus Christ and his Apostles haue not bene the author thereoff For Boniface would not haue kept it secret in that time Wherefore I giue more credite vnto those whiche haue written that Pope Pelagius hath bene the author inuentor and promoter of those suffrages and prayers the which we sée dayly yet in vse amonge the Christians and we call them the good déedes for the dead then to any of those which haue followed the Apostles Eusebius If you had reade ouer and ruminated the auncient doctors of the Churche you shall not finde that doctrine so newe but you woulde speake otherwise and should know that the Churche hath followed it of long time before that Pelagius or Sainct Gregory were borne Wherefore then did Sainct Ambrose make mention writing of the death of the Emperour Theodosius of the first seuenth thirty and fourty day that the Churche did celebrate making remembraunce of the dead and for what cause they did the same of whome the wordes are written in the decrées after this manner Bicause that some haue vsed to obserue the thirde caye other some the seuenth and others the thirty in the office of the dead Let vs consider what thing that lesson in the scripture teacheth vs It saith After that Iacob was dead Ioseph commaunded his seruants that they should bury him And the children of Israel buried him and the forty dayes beeing accomplished for so were the daies of the burial compted they lamented seuen dayes We ought to follow that solemnitie the whâ—che the holy scripture describeth vnto vs It is also written after this manner in Deuteronomium that the children of Israel lamented Moses and did wepe thirty dayes and then the mourning was ended heth those two obseruations haue then authoritie by the which the necessary office of piety and humanity is accomplished Doe you not sée here plainely by the words of Sainct Ambrose that already in his time the Churche did the office and commemoration of the dead and did celebrate in their memory certaine dayes and yet the auncients haue not instituted them after the inutation and example of the Panyms and Idolaters as you say and affirme but after that imitation of the auncient Patriarkes and Prophets and of the people of God Theophilus I am abashed I knowe not whether I shall speake it of the ignorance mallice of your doctors For if they vnderstande that Saincte Ambrose hathe allowed that which they at this day do vphold and maintaine they do greatly erre and shewe themselues to be verye ignoraunt Also if they vnderstand his intention and meaning they are very malicious and wicked to peruerte and marre the sence of the same for to maintaine their abuses and alwayes the more to kéepe the poore people in errour Firste they well perceiue and sée that Sainct Ambrose maketh no mention neither of Purgatory nor of Masse for the dead and that that place cannot serue but for the sorrow that men take for the dead For yet in that time the Churche approched néerer vnto the puritie of the primatiue Churche and was not so muche corrupted as she hath bene afterwards sithence the time of Pope Pelagius and of Gregory the greate This then that he maketh mention of the first seuenth thirty and forty daye in his booke and sermon that hée made of the death and buriall of Theodosius is not set forth by him for to nourishe and holde the pepole in the supersticions of the Panyms as you doe but rather to draw them backe from it and for to induce and leave the Christians vnto more greater honesty and modestye to the sorrowe that they ought to haue for the dead For that cause did he propound and set foorth the example of the Israelites not that he woulde thereby make a law vnto the Christian people that they shoulde mourne seuen thyrty nor forty dayes bicause that the Israelites haue mourned so many dayes for lacob Moses Aaron and Marie their sister yet lesse for to cause Masses to be said and to banket and make the priests broken as they do dayly at the Portuaries and Anniuersaries For then he should teache the Christian people to playe the Iewes and sinne against the Christian liberty if hee woulde of all the examples of the Scripture and of the thinges done by the Israelites draw out take lawes and statutes for to commaunde them vnto the Christian people as necessarie and ordeyned of god For first of all God neuer hath defined nor determined by his lawe certaine dayes nor yet to lament and mourne for the dead nor for to make any commemoration of them as it appeareth very well by the examples asore alledged For the Israelites themselues haue not kept a certaine number of dayes at the mourninge of Iacob Moses Aaron and of Marie For they did kéepe Iacob in Aegypt fortie dayes after that hee was enbaumed and the Aegyptians bewept him Ixx dayes He was carried into Hebron afterwards his sonnes bewept him seuen dayes in Atad But Moses Aaron and Marie their sister were beewept euerye one of them thirty dayes Thou doest see alreadie here that they are not very superstitious in the dayes and that some time they haue vsed eyther more or lesse It should séeme that their ordiuary was but for seuen dayes For it is written Seuen dayes do men mourne for him that is dead but the lamentation ouer the vnwise shoulde endure all the dayes of their life But when it is for some noble personne as for a Prince or a Prophet or anye man of great estimation and renome they woulde of custome prolonge theyr mournynges vntyll thyrtie dayes But they woulde not wyliyngly passe béeyond it as wée sée here in these three examples of Moses Aaron and Marie who were bewept and lamented of the people of Israel asmuche and more then anye other euer were The mourning of Iacob was a little more loÌ„ger bycause he was carried to be buryed a great way and that they carried him from the land of Aegypt into the land of Canaan not that they esteemed the land of Canaan more holy then that of Aegypt as touching his nature or that it had any more vertue for the health of the body or soule of him that was buryed there as the superstitious Christians and poore ignorant do iudge of the earth in the churchyarde bicause that it was blessed and halowed by their Bishops and Priests But they did that for to witnes in the article of the
Areopagite Wherefore it is most lykest to be true that he hath written nothing or els Eusebius would not haue helde his peace more then of the others But although he shoulde haue written those bookes yet he dyd sufficiently declare by them that at the tyme as those were written there was not suche extreme vnction as there is at this present He maketh mention that the Christians vsed of custome to anoynte the faythfull in the baptisme in witnesse that they did arme themselues for to fight and the dead in lyke manner when one buryeth them in signe and taken that they haue valyauntly fought and that they haue gotten and obtayned the victory and are gone to rest But he speaketh not a word of the anoynting of the sicke and diseased the which with much adoe hée woulde haue omitted without touching and expressing it aswell as he hath done the creame of the baptisme And although it should be so that that which the Priestes doe shoulde haue some certeyne foundation in the doctrine of Saynt Iames yet they cannot deny but that that place bath great coulour for to condempne that which they do about the dead For they haue not much redde in all the holy Sacripture which hath more appearaunce at the first sight for to colour their ceremonyes new sacraments which they haue inuented without the ordinaunce of Iesus Christ then that place bath for to giue lyght vnto theire extreme vnction and those muttering and mumblyng of the Psalter which they doe make about the sicke persons And yet neuerthelesse there is not one onely sillable vppon which they can stay or take hold for to grounde and allow the least of the ceremonyes and supersticions which they commit about the dead Hillarius It is neuerthelesse much to be meruayled at that if there had bene in their case any imitacion of the traditions of the Apostles and of the Primatiue Churche but that Saint Iames would haue touched some worde sith that he hath already taken in hande the matter of the sicke and diseased and that occasion also did suffer to speake of the dead and to teach how the Christians the Ministers of the Church ought to behaue themsolues if such things were necessarye which sithens the time of the Apostles haue bene brought into the Church of God. Theophilus Thy reason is not euill Wherefore me thinketh friend Eusebius that thou maist now vnderstand that that place of Saint Ambrose and the other reasons which thou hast put forth for to proue thy intentien to confirme thy matter conserue serue thée nothing at al for to allowe that which nowe in such a case is dene in your Churches But rather to condempne and reproue them For you your selfe followe not the example of the Israelites propouâ—ded by Saynt Ambrose and your Decrées and Canons nor you are not coâ—tented with the dayed which are there specified nor with the manner described in them for to celebrate the commemoration of the dead but doe adde to it many other things of which you cannot alleadge any example to be on your side neyther in the olde nor new Testament nor of the auncient people of Israel nor also of the first Christians but of the Panims and Idolaters whom you doe follow kéepinge almost the very same dayes that they for the same haue chosen and with the lyke supersticion as they Wherefore I am abashed of Durand who expounding the misteryes and secrets contayned in the number of those dayes hath written among other thinges that some Christians haue also chosen the nynth day for to make the Dbsequies and commemoratien of the deade or haue vsed of custome to offer nyne dayes together for them that theire soules should be delyuered from paynes and ioyned and kiut together vnto the nyne order of the Angells But he addeth that the same was not allowed of some fearing least it should séeme that the Christians were unitators and followers of the Panims and Gentiles who had that same day dedicated vnto the obsequies coÌ„memoratioÌ„ of their dead as already hath ben touched Hillarius Duer and besides the witnesse of all the Poets and chiefely of Virgile who described that Anniuersarie that Aeneas made for his father Anchises the sacrifices playes that they celebrated in the nynth daye of the same we haue all the histories which are oâ— credite namely Titus Liuius who in many places maketh mention of those Nensnaines and nyne daies which they do cal Nouendium Nouendiale Theophilus But wherefore was the customes of that Christians more to be rebuked which do celebrate the nynth day the Nensuaines in the honour of that dead then ether which do celebrate that seuenth day thirty forty a hundreth or other lyke dayes For if the thing be good in one day how can it be euill in the other doth the number adde or giue any more greater holynesse to one of the dayes more then to an other And if the thing be nothing worth to one of the dayes what priuiledge haue the other for to make it better Eusebius Wherfore do you demaund the cause sith that it hath bene already alleadged by thine owne self reciting the wordes of Durand Do you thinke that that cause ought to suffice least it should not séeme that the Christians do follow that Panims allow their manner or doings Hilla Truly you looke well to your busines haue wel prouided for your affaires Me thinketh that that diuel who hath ben that authour of your supersticioÌ„s idolatries in very déede hath ben a great Louldaue of a slougthful spirit if he had any iudgemeÌ„t in meÌ„ with whom he had to do if god by his iust iudgement had not taken froÌ„ theÌ„ their sence vnderstanding For what maske hath he taken for to disguyse himselfe withall to change one day into an other what differeÌ„ce is ther if you do that same things which were vsed amonge the Panims sauing that you doe chaunge the daye Which is best eyther to blaspheme God the third seuenth thirtie and fortie day or the fourth nynth tenth or fiftle Can one dishonour and blaspheme him more honestly in the one of those dayes then in the other What doe I care what day you take if you commit the same faultes As touching the dayes you haue chosen those same of the Iewes As touching the supersticion you do follow the same of the Panims desiring to shew that you are neyther Iew nor Panim you declare that you are lesse christians but that you haue a sect a new law lyke vnto that of Mahomet who haue not followed altogether neither that of the Iewes Panims nor yet that of the Christians But made one taking out of all those together that it pleased him and hath made a potage mingled with all sauces and corrupted with all poysons which doe in such sorte waste all that that maye be good that there remayneth nothing but the vyle venyme of
the light of the day in the earth Therefore also they caried it with them in the warre And when they muste remoue the hoast there was uppon the kings Tabernacle a little Image of the sunne enclosed within a rounde hor of Christall whiche shined and gane a great light When the procession of the holy and eternall fyre began to march and go foorth they caried if before all uppon the Aulters of silurr the whithe the wisest and holyest men whom they called pagitians did follow After them 365. young men beeing clothed in Purple and red for to represent the colour of the fyre I beleeue that after their erample the Pope and the Cardinals are pet clothed in red in witnes that either they are men of bloud beeing all bloudie with the bloude of the righseous and poore innocents or els that they are as a consuming fyre in this world which consumeth all for to make the poore faithfull feare which will not consent unto their blasphemies and tyranny or in signe and token that they are the Cookes fyre bronds of hell for do tost and broyle the roore sules that they haue the tharge of those iusernall firrs and of Purgatorie There was in like manner in that processiou charets hearses and shrines all tryumed and engraued in golde and siluer for to carye and beare the other gods and their Images the which they haue afterwards learned to make as the other Panims by succession of time did There were also which caried goodly rods and staues of golde as are the crosses of our Abbots and Byshoppes and the staues which they do cary in procession with the Crosse And those were also clothed with white as our Priests are Wherefore sith that our Priests do follow them almost in all things mee thinketh that they shoulde haue more shew of appearance to kéepe the holye fire in the pyr or bor and to worshippe it and cause it to bée worshiped as theyr God that they haue made of stower For this without the other can haue no great vertue sith that the fore must defende them Wherefore they do euidently declare that they estéeme it more puissant and more strong sith that they haue recourse vnto it Wherefore one may wel aunswere vnto them that which of old time hath bene aunswered by a certeine man of the pron and of the golde who was demaunded whiche of them both was the strongest Thomas Pée thinketh that it is the golde for it doth all things Hillarius But what can the golde do without that yron hath it not néede of the yron for to kéepe defende it For who is moste strongest eyther hee whiche keepeth or hée which must bee kept Thomas There is in th at a Sophistrie Hillarius There is no neede to alledge sophistrie For the thing is suche in beritie There is nething but the foolish opinion perswasion of men which maketh them to iudge otherwise For as Sainct Augustine saith what are all the mettals but earth what difference is there then betweene the yron and the golde but that the one is a blacker earth and the other more yollow pale wherein he declareth that he is more fearefull then the vson Thomas It is not without cause that he is plae for hee hath manye enemies whiche doe lye in wayte to take him Hillarius And therefore what shall hee doe if hée hadue not the yron for to defende him For the yron defendeth him and the yron taketh him and whiche is more of which should one set best by either of the yrou or of the golde Can we aswel labour and til the lande with the golde as with the yron and make that whiche wée make of the yron Thomas It is moste true we cannot But yet neuerthe ignorance and foolish opinton of men which estéeme it to be so bicause that the coulour séemeth vnto them more fairer and that it is not so plenty as yron But take away the opinion and it shall be but earth as the yron Asmuch may we say of the God of the Priestes and of the fire For I assure thee that if the syre dyd not make them to feare him that it should neuer haue come vnto such honour as it is come vnto and it shoulde bee impossible to keepe it in such digmtie Furthermore if the syre of Purgatory were not of some balue it shoulde not be so deere Perchandise nor so precious But what is the cause that men haue it in such reuerence and do forsake the liuinge God and the Sauiour Iesus Christ for to worshippe the worltes of their handes but the false opinion wherewith their understanding is corrupted marred For bestoes the worde of God all the residue is but opiluons and lyings Theophilus They should haue no lesse occasion to worshippe the fyre then the bread and to make it a god For if that fyre can purge sanctify that body soule it is God If it purge and sanctify it iustifieth saueth If it instiffe saue it is then god For ther is none other iustifter samour but him onelye And it is no harder for him to purge saue man then to create make him The worke of that redeÌ„ption is no harder then that of the creation Wherefore if the one apperteineth unto God alone so doth that other Hillarius There is yet another point the is that the fire is the principall creator of the Priests god For without it they cannot seeth nor heate any thing It hath power to make unmake as it hath bene well shewed foorth in the yere of our Lord. 1542. in a litle billage which is iii miles from Castres in Languidoc where the poore whyte god was burned upon holy Thursoay atnight with all his Tabernacle his house and al the Tepistry woork and hangings Thomas Now happened that great misfortune Hillarius Nou must understand the that night before the day of holy friday they had a custome that all the families householders went to bisit the poore god which was there deteyned kept prisoner with a great number of Tapers torches lampes which they caryed â—â— great deuotioÌ„ saying let bs go see our God which is at rest Thomas To what purpose did they the Hillarius Think the it was to coÌ„fort him bicause the upon those dayes there he was somuch tormented among the Iewes Thomas Are there Iewes in the country Hillarius Why is there a country where ther is none Thomas Not many among that Christians Hillarius Pore then in any other place although there were none but the pricsts which alwaies dayly thorow their blasphemies do crucifie Iesus Christ towards who they shew themselues a great deale worse then the Iewes For they haue crucifted him but once but those here doe crucifie him euery day Thomas Ketourne to thy matter expound unto vs how the fire there kindled Hillarius Nou must understand the in disiting himm in such fort they brought that
Purgatory that the thing was not incredible But yet neuerthelesse he â—urst not affirme it but spake of it as of a thing doubtsull and incertein notwithstanding that hee â—â—emeth to bee of an opinion that the prayers made for the dead did profit them But when all shal be well considered what witnes or what example doth hee alledge out of the holy Scripture either of the olde or new testament sufficient for to proue and confirme that doctrine Iâ— he shewe foorth vnto me y custome of the auÌ„cient Church the traditions of the Apostles I will demaunde vpon the same the witnes or example of the holy scripture or of the primitiue Church For I am certeine he shall not finde it It is then necessary that we do come to the next age as was the time of Tertulian Ireneus and other like and afterwards from thence vnto the same of Cyprian For I haue already proued by their writings that in those times they did not make such prayers for the dead as they were after the time of Sainct Augustin For they did them not to the intent to helpe succour the dead but they directed them vnto God only for to giue him prayse for to demaund his grace mercy towards the lyuing euen as then the Commemorations of the Martyrs wâ—ich were done about their Sepuleres to the glory of God consolation of the liuing haue bâ—ne conuerted chaunged to y inuocation of saincts they haue made Idols of theÌ„ so the coÌ„memoration which is done of other that be dead hath bene chaunged into meritorious prayers for to draw thé from paine successiuely sithency that one hath learned the custom to make a certein remeÌ„brance mention in y ecclesiastical assibles thei came afterward to y point to make y coÌ„memoration in y supper for to witnes y they held theÌ„ of whoÌ„ in y same they made remeÌ„brance for true faithful catholicke of y coÌ„munion of saints which in y supper is represâ—tâ—d 〈◊〉 y same manner ought we to vnderstád y which S. Augustin hath writté of y remeÌ„brance which they celebrated for y dead in the sacrifice of y aulter of a mediator by which we ought not to vnderstaÌ„d a sacrifice in which Iesus christ our only mediator is offred to god his â—ather for y rediption of our souls as he was offred vpoÌ„ y trâ—e of y crosse after y manner as y priests do glory boast theÌ„selues at this present time to offer in their Masse according to y witnes of their Canon For there is but one such Sacrifice the whiche Iesus hath once offered which of none other can be done but of him alone who is the Priesse and euerlasting bishop after the order of Melchizedec if we wil not be lye the holy Ghost who spake by the mouth of the holy Apostle Thomas Of what Sacrifice then doth Sainct Augustine speake off Theophilus Thou oughtest to vnderstand that there bee two sortes of Sacrifices whiche doe comprehend all y other The first is y sacrifice of reconciliation redemption for to deliuer the sinners from the yre and wrath of God But this apperteyneth but to Iesus Christ alone of whom y Leuiticall sacrifices wer but a shadow and figure The other is y sacrifice of praise thanks giuing by which we may comprehend al y workes of the faithfull by which they do prayse God and doe trauiale to be ioyned vnto him As Sainct Augustine doth expounde it Now forasmuche as the sacrament of the holye supper of our Lord is one of the principall things that the church hath for to glorifie God rightly it was called by the auncients sacrifice as not long agoe hath bene touched not by reason that Iesus Christe is offred vnto God by vs But bicause that he offreth himselfe vnto vs and that thorow faith we receiue it and render vnto him it ankes for the greate benefit that he hath done for vs giuing himselfe to the death for vs and we confesse and protest that wee doe not take nor holde anye other for a sauiour then hée onely nor we accept any mans sacrifice but his For that cause hath the supper in like manner bene called Eucharistia by the Greeks The which word signifieth giuing of thankes After the same manner haue Sainct Augustine and other anncient Doctors of the Churche vnderstanded it And they vnderstand not by the aulter any other thinge but the table vpon which y Church hath vsed to celebrate the supper making allusion vnto the aulters of the auncient law and haue regarde to that sacrifice of thankes gyung which in the supper is offred vnto god by his church Behold the estate which was in the Church touching that poynt in the tyme of Sainct Augustine which was about foure hundreth yeares after the death and passion of Iesus Christ in which the church dyd begin then very much to degenerate and to be corrupted For after that one once had begonne to myngle the commemoration of the dead with that of Iesus Christe for which onely the supper is celebrated not for sinfull men who haue not redemed vs by their death from one opinion and error it is fallen into another in suche sorte that men are fallen into such dreamingâ— that they haue thought that y supper to the which those that were a lyue dyd coÌ„municate dyd profyt the dead and that they might take it for them and to their health saluation after the same manner as they dyd the other suffrages in theyr name Hillarius If we will vnderstand that which saint Paul hath wrytten of the Corinthians which baptised themselues for the dead after the sence in which the auncients haue taken it we should haue no lesse reason to excuse them then those here For if I may take the supper for an other man wherefore may I not in lyke manner be baptised for him I thinke that they will not graunte we that that one may be baptised for an other and that that baptisme doth profite him and yet lesse to the dead then to the lyuing Theophilus It is well founde out who haue bene of that opinion that they may be baptised for the dead which without baptisme were departed out of this world that y baptisme profiteth them But the Doctors questionaries and namely Thomas of Aquin benyeth it and condempneth that opinion Hillarius If I may not then be baptised for the dead whereto serueth or profiteth the supper that I shall take for them For it hath not bene more ordayned for the dead then the baptisme but both of them were for the lyuing aswell the one as the other sith that both of them are Sacraments giuen vnto the militant Church and which is yet couered and wrapped in this flesh Theophilus There is nothing more certeyne And yet neuerthelesse behold how the one of the errors hath drawen the
haue fallen out so but that he would haue resisted it more strongly then wee doe at this day For hee could not haue suffred that the grace of Iesus Christ of which he was so greate a defender against the Pelagians should haue bene so altogether destroyed But the good man was ouercome bicause that then the puritie of the doctrine of the gospel the estate of the church was already very much decayed corrupted as we may easely iudge by that whiche Sainct Hierome witnesseth of the life of Malchus For he was not ashamed to write that the time and age in which hee liued and Sainct Augustin in lyhe manner who was of the same time was but filthynesse stinking in comparison of the same of the Apostles Thou hast alreadie heard the plaint the Sainct Augustin made of mans traditions with which the Church was ouercharged Amongst which he touched the Iewishnes and superstion whiche was yet kept in Africa We must not then be abashed if in those dayes there came vp new opinions touching the estate of the dead the whiche the auncient Churche was ignorant off Wee must not in like manner meruaile although some greate learned men haue bene wrapt in them For it happeneth commonlye that when men haue dreamed and inuented some new opinion they will also induce others and are angry against those that doe resist them insomuch that they will condempne them and if they bee the moste wisest and of greatest countenaunce they cary away the matter After that sorte was Aerius condempned chifely bicause he saide that it was not néedeful to pray nor to offer for the dead It happened to him as it did to Vigilantius Against whome Sainct Hierome hath writen so outragiously bicause that hee allowed not but rebuked the watchings whiche they made about the Sepulcres of the Martyrs bicause that he knew already the superstition which would follow S. Hierome was a great learned man but yet neuerthelesse a childe might iudge that hée did great wrong vnto Vigilantius and that hée shewed himselfe to bee too much a man and more superstitious then hee ought to bée For at this present the time declared vnto vs that the reason of Vigilantius was a great deale better then that of Hierome the abuses and Idolatries whiche haue followed that custome that Hierome hath mainteined doe mamsestlye declare that then Antechriste aduaunced the secret of iniquitye to whome Hierome obeyed without takinge anye heede Nowe lette vs thinke that sorasmuche as suche a manue as hée was dyd defende so sharpelye mans tradytions and childithe supershtious what authorytye canne the little ones haue whiche doe put themselues againste it or withstande it and what shall the pore people doe Then when Sainct Augustin did beginne to write hee did then finde owers opinions of the suffâ—nges and prayers for the dead among those of the Church or the Doctors of the Church and the question of Purgatory stirred vp and moued the which hee also hath sifted and fanned He then perceiuing the opinions and reasons of others which were not without appearance of wisedome and holines whiche are the titles which the Apostle attributeh vnto mans trabitions was somwhat troubled and moued and burst not altogether condempne them That was the cause wherefore he spake of that matter after diuers sortes doubtfully and that he seemeth some time to speake against himselfe When hee had no regarde but to the pure worde of God hee hath well spoken as I will make it by and by appeare But when hee had regard vnto the opinions and reasons of others and grounded himself vpon mans Phylosophy more then vppon the certeine worde of God hee founde himselfe sometime in great perplerity and doubt and hath followed sometime more his humaine reason then the verity of God reuealed vnto him For when all shall be well considered where in differeth that difference that hee putteth betweene the estates of the dead from the doctrine of Plato Furthermore do wee not see that when he speaketh of the fire of Purgatory for the other life that he speaketh alwayes as bucerteine and as of an opinion probable and like to bee true the which he dareth not certeinly allow nor disalow But saith that one may dispute of that question and alwayes leaue it in suspense Nowe who would thinke it like be true that that holy man beeing a great keper an obseruer of the ecclesiastical catholicke doctrine would haue so spoken and written of that matter if in his time that doctrine of Purgatorye had bene receiued and allowed of the Churche for certeine and sure in that sorte that those whiche at this present doe receiue so great gaine woulde condcmpne as Herâ—tickes not onely those that doe say the contrary but also all those whiche beleeue it not to be an article of faith necessary vnto saluation How could hee call into doubt an article of faith authorised and confirmed by the Churche nowe wee cannot denye but that the doctrine of our faith is alwayes one eternall and like vnto it selfe and that the Apostles haue so taught and instructed the Churches that they haue not hyd from them any thinge necessary vnto their saluation which ought not afterwardes to bee reuealed and chiefely that which toucheth the offices of loue and charitie without which we are nothing towardes god There is yet an other point that is that he himselfe is not of the opinion that the prayers and ofteringes of the wicked may bee agreeable to god To the which opinion the papisticall Doctors dare verye well speake agaynst and affirme that it ought not to be holden but that it is too harde and rigorous notwithstanding the hee alloweth it by the holy Scriptures bicause that it depriueth the deade from mercye and from so manye goodly prayers and suffrages and woulde cause the charytie of those that bee aliue to ware colde towardes them Hillarius I am not abashed For they shoulde lose much if none shoulde offer vnto them but good men It is vnto them to whome the sentence is to hard not vnto the dead Theophilus If they bee so bolde to reproue the sentence of the auncient Doctors when it is not fit for their purpose although that it bee confirmable vnto the Scripture wherefore may not wee reiect it when it shall be contrary vnto it As touchinge that which thou hast in lyke manner declared of his mother Monica requyring that they should make remembraunce of hir in the celebration of the Sacrament it maketh no greate matter That was the affection of a woman as that which shee had to bee buryed hard by hir husbande For there is no doubt that the affeâ—â—ion that wee haue towardes the dead maketh that wee also desire that others should haue the lyke affection towardes vs â—nd wee must not bee â—bashed if such humame affections doe reigne sometimes in vs For wee our selues doe see that those holy
God which is the soueraigne Iudge of al creatures which hath already giué his sentence of our differences by his word and by the mouth of Iesus Christ his sonne and of all his Prophets and Apostles vnto the which we ought to stay our selues But you not beeing contented with them do appeale from God vnto men and from the counsell of the Prophets and Apostles of whom Iesus Christ is president chiefe thorow his holy spirite to the councels of men in whiche the Popes doe rule and are President who according to your doctrine haue such power and authority that they may dispence against the apostolicall doctrine the right of nature consequently against the Gospell the word of god For the Pope hath all the diuine and humaine rights in the cabin and chest of his breast that he ought to iudge euery one ought not to be iudged of any man insomuch that when he shal leade innumerable of people great companies into hell no mortal man ought here to checke and rebuke him of his faultes For he is god who cannot be iudged of men Hillarius It followeth then that if one doe see him to go to all the diuels to drawe thither all the worlde with him that none ought to saye vnto him that hee doth euill For hee that sayth it both iudgeth and rebuketh Eusebius The Canons do not deny but that he is to be rebuked if he be an hereticke that he erreth in the faith Theophilus But you do say that hee cannot erre And herefore when hee is an heretyke and out of the faithe dare we to rebuke him and his doctrine no not by our auâ—â—ority and silence but by the same of God and of all his Prophets and Apostles the whiche we do but propound yea whiche is more by that or the auncient Doctors as thou mightest haue seene and knowen if thou wouldest And if thou doe not content thyselfe with that I will shew vnto thee how that wicked Antechrist condempneth himselfe of his owne mouth and confesseth that there is no such Purgatory as he woulde establish For hee himselfe confesseth after that he is much glorified that God whiche hath saued all men knoweth no worke of imperfection And for that cause be pardoneth not sinnes in part Therefore the glose made vpon that text alledgeth two verses conteining that sentence The great goodnes of god will not pardon the halfe For when with teares wéeping thou comest vnto him hee will giue thée all or nothing Now if it were so that God reserueth one part of the sinnes for to be punished in Purgatory as you do affirme it should follow that God worketh not but halfe with his seruants the whiche none can say without blasphemy For the workes of God are perfect Wherefore if thou haue not Eusebius any better refuge in the holye Scripture then thou hast yet shewed foorth thou hast lost thy cause by the sentence of God and of all his seruants yea of Antechrist himselfe whom the vertue of God compelleth to confesse the trueth against his owne nose and inspite of his teeth as the diuels did confesse Iesus Christe feeling his power the which they could not resist Thomas Thou doest here what matters these people here haue declared vnto thee Eusebius Thou haddest almoste wonne me at the beginning of this disputation confirmed mee in thine opinion when that I heard thee propound the words of Sainct Augustin But now after that I hearde their replyings I am more vncerteine then before Wherefore I muste here the rude of that cause the last sentence the whiche is giuen by the word of god I haue determined to declare vnto you the cause of my voyage as I haue promised after that Eusebius shal haue done with you But I am content to deferre it vntill tomorrow to the ende I maye returne vnto you more resolued Wherfore I pray thée Eusebius that thou prepare thy selfe to fight with them valiantly by the sword of the word of God and that we may see the ende of that Purgatory and also of the Limbe whereof the matter hath bene broken off hath not ben followed nor resolued Yet neuerthelesse this is one pointe the which I desire almoste asmuch the resolution as of the Purgatory And to the end you may haue the more leasure to debate of the matter I will hold you no longer But bicause that it is now so late therfore me thinketh that it shal be better to take the time at our pleasure Hillarius I do like wel Thomas his counsell Theophilus I am content that we do suffer graunt vnto Eusebius all that he would haue to the ende we giue him none occasion to complaine that he hath had no time and the meane to defende his cause Eusebius Sith that it is so I doe agrée to your opinion But it is vppon such condicion whiche is of force that before that I departe from you either that you be of mine opinion or I of yours wherevppon saye a dieu farewell Vnto the Reader It seemeth vnto mee good to adde vnto thee here the sequence of those that bee dead in Latin the whiche was omitted in the margent Fol. 167. where it is translated faithfully into English meeter Oratio siue sequentia ad beatam Mariam pro defunctis Lugentibus in purgatorio Qui torrentur ardore nimio Et torquentur sine remedio Subueniat tua passio O Maria. Fonses patens quae culpas abluis Omnes sanas nullum respuis Manum tuam extende mortuis Qui sub poenis languent continuis O Maria. Ad te pia suspirant mortui Cupientes de poenis erui Et adesse tuo conspectui Et gaudis aeternis persrui O Maria. Clauis Dauid quae coelum aperis Nune beata succurre miseris Qui tormentis torquentur asperis Educ eas de domo carceris O Maria. Lex iuslorum Norma credentium Vera salus in te sperantium Pro desunctis sit tibi sludium Assidue orare silium O Maria. Benedicta per tua merita Te rogamus mortuos suscita Et dimittens corum debita Ad requiem sis eis semita O Maria. FINIS ¶ The table of the principall matters of the seconde parte of the Christian disputations A. A Bell hearing Masse 184 Abragan 154 Abstinence and seperation from women 141. Abstinence from lawfull thinges 141. Abstinence from beasts flesh 170 Abstinence from meates 171. Accidents burned 161. Accidents without substance 162. Adam prest 185. Admirasion of the water and salt 152. Adonis 150. Aduent 139. Aerius 192. Eaesculanus 143. Affection folish towards the deade 181. Affection of women that followed Iesus 193. Alleluya 150. Alexander Pope 141. 163. Alexander Natiuitie 156. Amburbales 149. Aneylia 161. Anchiles 129. Anniuersaries 128. 130 Anexagoras 123. Aunswere to the place of the 19. Chap. of Exodus 117. 144 Antipopes 190 Antiquitie of the name of Masse 183. Antiquitie of the
now Eusebius There is no doubt of it Theophilus Sith that it is so tell mée what soules went thether For eyther it must bée altogether emptie and voide or else it must be that some went thether eyther those of the elect faithfull or those of the Infidels and reprobate Now I do not thinke that thou wilt say that the Purgatory was for the Infidels and reprobate Eusebius One may so iudge by that which is written of the wicked rich man. Theophilus Sith then that hell was for the reprobate it followeth then necessarily that the soules of the elect shoulde goe into Purgatorye If it hée so to what ende serueth the Limbe For you doe saye that all the Patriarches Prophetes and true faythfull whiche are departed out of this worlde before the death and passion of Iesus Christe were there kepte and deteyned and they coulde not goe into Paradise vntyll such time as Iesus Christe had satysfied for them Wherefore I doe conclude accordinge to your doctrine eyther that the Limbe and Purgatorye were all one place and lodginge or else that the one of them two was voyde and supersâ—uous or that there was but one or for to speake the truth neyther the one nor the other For if the Limbe were for to receiue the faythfull that dyed in the fayth of the promyse made vnto Abraham what néede was there anye more of Purgatorye bad they not Purgatorye suffycient inough in the Limbes Were they not sufficientlye tormented to bée excluded from Paradise and depryued from the ioyes thereoff and from the fruytion of the glorye of GOD as you doe affirme For what more greater torment can a faythfull man haue then to bee depryued from suche a good thinge That is not onely a Purgatorye but a very hell Eusebius I do know that in hearing thée speake that thou which wouldest teache others art yet in greater ignoraunce and that thou vnderstandest verye euyll this matter The Limbe then was for those which were in such estate as those are nowe which haue finished their penaunce and haue made entire and whole satisfaction for their sinnes in this world which doe go strayght waye into Paradyse sauinge that those there cannot yet enter bicause that the doore was shutte vntyll that Iesus Christ came to open it and to breake the gates of Hell. Theophilus Wherefore was the Purgatorye Had it in it yet a certeyne other sorte of soules and of an other condytion then those which went into the Limbes Eusebius Yea. For thou mayst well vnderstande that all the faythfull which haue procéeded and bene before the comminge of our Lorde Iesus Christe haue not all of them bene so holy and so perfect as the Patriarches and Prophetes Wherefore it were no reason that incontinently after they are deade they shoulde receyue as much felicytie as they wythout they doe first accomplishe and ende their penaunce in Purgatorye and satysfie for their sinnes the which they haue not done in thys world as the holy Patriarches and Prophets haue done or otherwyse GOD shoulde not bée iuste For what reason is it that hée whiche hath lyued in all viees and sinnes all the time of this lyfe vntyll the laste tyme of hys death in whiche gée hath had repentaunce of hys sinnes and hath asked mercye of God shoulde haue no more gréeuous punishment but should receiue as great reward as he which al his life time hath serued God faithfully and hath alwayes lyued in holynesse righteousnesse and innocencie Theophilus Take héede thou doe not blaspheme God and doe imurye vnto his grace and mercye For I doe greatly feare but that thou wilt bée like vnto the brother of the prodigall childe who was enuious against his brother and murmured against his father béeing angrye at the gentle receiuing and of the grace and fauour that hee dyd vnto his sonne whome he had recoured béeing reduced and brought into the right way or least that thou be one of the companions of theÌ„ which were hired to work in the vineyard which did murmure against the good man of the house bicause y he did giue as much wages vnto those whom he called at the eleuenth houre a little before night for to work in his vineyard as vnto those whoÌ„ hée appointed from the morning which haue borne the burthen and heate of the day Wherfore dost thou not accuse our Lord Iesus Christ who hath aunswered vnto that poore theefe who dyd hange vppon the Crosse â—â—yth him This daye shalt thou bée with mée in Paradise What good déedes had hée done before Art thou enuious of the grace which God doth vnto the poore sinners Eusebius God forbid But we must vnderstand that as God is mercifull so is hée righteous And if the théefe which was crucified with Iesus Christ had had that priuiledge it followeth not therefore that all haue the lyke or that they ought to haue it For as the lawe makers doe say the priuiledges of a fewe are not common lawes to all men Theophilus If that théefe hath receiued so greate goodnesse by one singular priuiledge I doe aunswere vnto thée further that none is saued but by priuiledge For all wée haue meryted eternall dampnation of our nature Inasmuch then as wée be saued that is thorow a singular priuiledge which is giuen of God vnto the elect by Iesus Christ which is not common vnto the reprobate Eusebius There is yet an other reason wherefore that théese went straight into Paradise wythout passinge by the fire and the paines of Purgatorye that is bicause that he had alreadye done his penaunce in this world and hath satisfied for his sinnes Theophilus What penaunce or satisfaction coulde hée haue made For the theftes and murthers for which hée was hanged on the Gybet Eusebius But it was the paine that hée endured and suffered and the death that he hath receiued for his demerites Theophilus As much did his companion suffer which was hanged on the left hande but yet neuerthelesse his torments haue serued him nothing at all and hée dyd not heare such promise of Iesus Christ as the other Eusebius Bicause that hée dyd not take his death and torment quyetly and patientlye and hath not beléeued in Iesus Christe and demaunded pardon of hys sinnes as his companion did Theophilus Thou alwayes commest vnto my compt and thou shalt hée compelled to confesse that there is nothinge which was the cause of his saluation but the faith which he had in Iesus Christ and the mercy of God which hée hath obteyned by the same without that that God had regard neither to his dignitie or worthinesse nor vnto his workes but vnto Iesus Christe his sonne for whose loue he hath pardoned him not for the forment and death which the théese hath suffred and the satisfaction that he could doe vnto him but for the forment death and passion which Iesus Christ hath suffred the satisfaction that he hath made for him the which
Sainct Cyprian hath well vnderstanded of whom the witnes is alleged by the maister of the sentences For although all the deathes and forments that all men haue euer suffred Patriarkes Prophets and Apostles Martirs and confessors should be put together they should not be sufficient for to put out the least sinne in the world For God doth not take onlye for satisfaction the torment but regardeth the worthynes of the person of which he receaueth the raunsome the whiche was not found sufficient but in Iesus Christ Or otherwise if the torment which man doth suffer were approued and allowed of God for satisfaction and cause to auoyd the paines of Purgatory there shoulde bee no men more happier and blessed then the théeues murtherers brigandes and other malefactors which are executed by Iustice And there would bee none which would not but become a théese or murtherer or to coÌ„mit some fault wor thy of death for to be executed thorow Iustice to auoide the paines of Purgatory For if the doctrine of your diuines be true the fire of Purgatory surmounteth al the paine that a man can suffer in this life and it is so hot and burning that the visible and materiall fire of this world is but as a painted fire in comparison of that same Hillarius I cannot vnderstand in what place of the holy scripture they haue séene that I woulde rather beleeue that they haue learned it of Plutarch who hath witten that the dolors and paines of Purgatory are so great and so cruell that there is asmuche difference betwéene them and those that wee do suffer in our body and in the flesh as there is difference betwéene that which happeneth vnto vs in dreaming and that which happeneth vnto vs waking In somuch that all that whiche we doe suffer in this worlde is but as a dreame in the respecte of the same Wherfore if the fable that the Theologians haue rehersed of Sainct Gregory be true I shal not be abashed that hee had rather choose when the Aungell did giue vnto him the choyce of two things to be in paine and sickenes all his life then two daies in Purgatory bicause that hée prayed for Traianus and deliuered him from hell For although that he complained in his Epistles that hée is so much gréeuid with diseases and so great dolours that his life is vnto him nothing but paine yet neuertheles it is verye casle in comparison to be a quarter of an houre in Purgatory Thomas To what purpose hath the Angell giuen vnto him to choose one of those two paines By doing good ought euill to happen vnto him Hath hée fetched out Traianus from hell against Gods will If our Priestes had such a payment for to drawe soules out of Purgatorye I belaue that they would not be very much hotte after their masses Hillarius It were necessary that sithens they haue begunne the fable to ende it for to make it accorde and agrée with that of Theseus and Pyrothus who as the Poetes do witnes are punished in the hells bicause that they woulde take awaye Proserpina maugre the God Pluto Theophilus That is yet nothing in comparison to that that I haue said They do kindle that fire more For they do affirme that the same of Purgatory and that of hell is al one and that there is none other difference but that the same of hell is eternall touching his office but the same of Purgatory is not but as touching his substaunce bicause that the soules go out some time Wherefore they do conclude that not onely the paine of Purgatorye is the moste gréenous that euer was but whiche is more Thomas of Aquin hath written that that paine excéedeth and surmounteth the dolours torments which Iesus Christ hath suffred in his death and passion What blasphemy can be more greater For what hell can be more truell then that which Iesus Christe hath suffred for vs when hee take vpon him the cursse due for our sinnes for to deliuer vs Thomas Do they not alledge some place of the holye Scripture for to proue that Hillarius Where shal they finde it their probatien is an example which they do commonly put foorth and propounde taken out of the chronicles of the Iacobins of a Frier of that order who appeared vnto a very friende of his by whom beeing asked of the paines of Purgatorye aunswered that if all the world and all the visible things were on fire and did burne yet it could not be compared to the paine and beate of Purgatorye bost thou not thinke that the probation is worthy of such Theologians Eusebius Although that there were no Scripture that we had but our naturall sence the which God hath giuen vnto vs yet wee might well iudge that it is conuenient and necessarie that there be a Purgatorye in whiche the sinful men may he punished for those sinnes of which they haue not ended their penaunce For it is not written with out cause Nullum malum impunitum Nullum bonum irrenumeratum That is ther is none euil which shal not be vnpanished nor no goodnes which shal not be vnrewarded Theophilus Although that those wordes are not reryted in the scripture after that manner as thou doost receyte them yet neuertheles I am content to allow it to be true I doe not deny but that God is as iust as he is merciful For otherwise he could not be god But we ought to consider by what meanes he doth exercise his iustice mercie towards vs There is no doubt but the our sinnes do deserue great punishmeÌ„t And therfore hath he giueÌ„ vnto vs Iesus Christ his sonne hath deliuered him to death for vs that our misdéeds should be punished in him that he do satisfie for vs to his souereigne iustice for to obteine of him grace mercy in his name Thou seest theÌ„ that there is none euil which is not vnpunished for to satisfie the rightousnes iustice of god but ther is differeÌ„ce in the maÌ„ner of punishing Forâ—â— he that hath bâ—ne the euil beleeueth in Iesus Christ and hath full hope and trust that thorow his death passion he hath obtayned of God pardon and remission of his sinnes thorow that saith he is the true member of Iesus Christ and adopted for the sonne of god If hee bee a true member of Iesus Christ and a true childe of God hée his sinnes are punished in Iesus Christe who for that cense hath borne the iudgement and tursse of God for all the elect But if the sinner bee an Infidell and whiche hath no parte with Iesus Christ the wrath of God falleth vppon him and he cannot escape the Iudgement of God but that his sinne be punished in himselfe in hell fire And euen as our euill deedes are punished in Iesus Christ so are our good déedes rewarded in him and by him allowed of the celestiall Father which crowneth his good
canon which was made But yet at this day that errour continueth among the Bohemians and Morauians the which yet neuerthelesse the Papists themselues doe not allow no more then that which S. Cyprian Origene did which did distribute the supper vnto young children when their fathers and mothers brought them in their armes in comming to communicate the same And they gaue vnto them not onely the breade but also the cup. Now let vs thinke if already such errors were about the sacraments in that time there what may chaunce afterwards For Cyprian reigned about the yeare after the death and passion of Iesus Christ two hundreth and fiftie Those worthy men would not haue so much attributed vnto the Sacraments if they had not so much taken to the rigor and to the letter the words of Iesus Christ Of the like beginning came vp the error of those which estéemed thought the he which after that he was baptised hauing once receiued the supper could neuer be damned or at the least should be once delyuered from damnation bicause that Iesus Christ hath said I am that liuing bread that came downe from heauen if anyman eate of this bread hée shall liue for euer They vrge vpon the letter said that Iesus Christ could not lye which hath promised the same Yet neuertheles Sainct Augustine rebuketh confuteth their errour Beholde y absurdities into which men do fall for fault of wel examining the Scriptures when they doe take them according to the rigor of the letter For whosoeuer wil according to the opinion which the Papistes haue of the Sacrament of the alter take litterally y which Iesus Christ said of eating of his flesh drinking his bloud there is no doubt but that we shall be constrayned to confesse that all those which haue once taken the supper are all saued and y all those which shall not once receiue it are all damned And so it shal be no lesse requisite to giue y supper vnto the young childrē to giue power vnto womē to giue it them then y baptisme they y would take the words those matters by y rigor And therfore for to retourne to the place by thée alledged by the absurdities which should follow of thy expositiō the which do repugne against the grace of Iesus Christ as I haue declared vnto thee thou maist wel know that we must not vnderstand that place after that manner as thou doest expounde it For Iesus Christ speaketh not in that place there of visible baptisme nor of his institution But speaketh of the regeneration of man and sheweth what thing he must haue for to be a Christian to wit that it is necessary that he doe renounce forsake his first generation natiuitie which is altogether corrupted and cursed and that he be regenerated by the spirit of God and thorowe the incorruptible séede of his woorde insomuch that he is made a newe creature bearinge the Image of Iesus Christ the true celestiall Adam euen as hée hath borne that of the olde and terrestriall Adam And therefore hath hée sayd Except a man be borne from aboue or a new be cannot sée the kingdome of god And after he expoundeth it by the other proposition following which signifieth none other thing then that which hée hath already sayd before For to be borne from aboue or to bée borne againe and to be borne of water and the holy Ghost are equiualent manners of speakings And the two propositions of Iesus Christ are equipolent y one to the other ther is none other difference sauing that y last is more ample and expoundeth the first For sith that our first natiuitie is carnal it must be y the second be spirituall Sith that the first man is of the earth earthly it is requisite that the second which is from heauen be heauenly and spirituall Now that regeneration transformation cannot be made but by the spirite of god For as it is written in that same place That which is borne of the flesh is flesh That that is borne of the spirit is spirit And therefore Iesus Christ willing to expoūd vnto Nicodemus y which he had said before Except y a man be borne frō aboue or a new he cannot see the kingdome of God Afterwardes saith which shall not bée borne of water and the holy Ghost bicause that the holy Ghost author of that regeneration is giuen from aboue which worketh a secōd natiuitie in vs which is celestiall and spirituall Eusebius But what néeded it to adde the water was it not sufficient to name the holy Ghost Theophilus Wherefore hath Iohn Baptist sayd speaking of the ministry of Iesus Christ That he would baptise with the holye Ghoste and with fire what néeded it sith that he named the holy Ghost to adde vnto it the fire Shall it be therefore necessary to constitute a baptisme of the fire as some do say that some Christians which are amongst y Indians Aethiopians Persians do who for that cause did vse the fire for baptisme of the fire Eusebius One may well perceiue there that Sainct Iohn taketh the fire by a Metaphore and that he vnderstandeth no other thing by the fire then the holy Ghost of whom he hath already spokē the better to expound the nature of the same for as the fire is pure cleane and cannot suffer any spot or filth but purgeth maketh cleane illuminateth the consciences enflameth them to the loue of god For which cause he was sent vnto y Apostles in y liknes of tongues of fire the which S. Iohn did foresée forespeak off vsing such wordes Theophilus Thy exposition doth please me very much Wherefore if thou makest it no difficultie to take in that place the fire for the spirit of God for more ample expositiō of his nature properties wherfore oughtest thou to make a doubt to take y water in that place for that same signification séeing y agréeing y the water hath with the nature of y holy Ghost For there is no lesse reason but a great deale more appearance For Sainct Iohn putteth the holy Ghost first the fire afterwards Wherfore it séemeth either that he vnderstandeth two thinges seperated or that he expoundeth the thing more cléere by a more darker thing Although that thy aunswere doth sufficiently satisfye that obiection But in that place Iesus Christ putteth y water first afterwards as if hée would expound his Metaphore and comparison and giue vnto it more greater brightnesse he declareth what he would signifie by that water to wit the holy Ghost vnto whom he giueth that name for many causes First bicause that as the fire is an element meruailous pure and cleane and so necessary vnto mans life that it is impossible for men to lack it so is it of y water the which is also by nature cléere pure and
beleeue that thou art not ignorant how your owne doctours do answere to that place Among which Holcot repugneth Saint Augustine saying that his exception is not sufficient and that the man which knoweth Iesus Christ may be saued without baptisme by an other meanes then by martyrdome But which is more he affirmeth that the man which beléeueth himselfe to be perfectly baptised yet neuerthelesse is not shal be out of all daunger of dampnation and saith that that saith shoulde sâ—rue hun to saluation although that it were builded vpon a falsitie But what is he among vs which is perfectly assured whether he be baptised or no. Howe can we knowe it but by the witnesse of an other Therefore the maâ—ster of the sentences aunswereth vppon the obâ—â—ctions made by thée that we must vnderstande the wordes of saint Augustine according to the declaration that he hath giuen in other places in which he entreateth that matter more amplie And therefore saith he we must vnderstande those thinges of those which haue had the time and leasure for to be baptised haue not done it For if any hauing faith and charitie woulde be baptised and cannot being ouertaken with necessitie the benignitie liberalitie of y most puissant God recompenseth y which wanted in the sacrament For when he may pay if he do not pay he abideth bound But when he cannot and yet neuertheles he is willing to do it God which hath not tyed his power vnto the sacraments imputeth it not vnto him I haue alledged vnto thée the very wordes euen as they be written in the booke of the maister of the sentences which yet proueth by saint Augustine that the inuisible sactification hath béene in some and hath profited them without the visible sacramentes saying after this manner the visible sanctification the which is done by the visible sacrament may be without the inuisible but it cannot profite Yet we must not neuerthelesse contemne and dispise the visible sacrament For the contemner of the same cannot be sactified inuisibâ—â—e And notwithstanding that Holcot alloweth that which others haue written of the baptisme of bloude he declareth yet neuerthelesse sufficiently ynough that he which without being baptised sheddeth his bleude for the name of Iesus Christ is not baptised by that bloude which hath béene shed But that the Church holdeth him for baptised bicause that by the same he hath sufficiently witnessed that he hath not dispised baptisme but that he woulde willingly receiue it if it had béene possible for him Sith that he hath shewed such faith in the Gospell of Iesus Christ Eusebius I graunt that thou saiest as touching men of age vnto whome the faith and repentaunce doe recompence the want of baptisme But of young infantes it is otherwise For sith that there is neither â—aith nor repentance in them they cannot be saued without baptisme Therefore saith the maister of the sentences that those which dye without baptisme yea though one bring them to bee baptised shal bee dampned and doth proue it by saint Augustine saying holde this for a suertie and doubt nothing at all of it that not onely men hauing already reason but also the young infants which begin to liue in their mothers belly and doe there die without the sacrament of holy baptisme which is giuen in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost or those which without the same doe passe out of this worlde after that they are borne shal be punished with eternall fire For although that they haue not had sinne by theyr proper acte and woorke yet they haue neuerthelesse drawen vnto them by their conception and natiuitie the dampnation of originall sinne Theophilus Thou hast nowe beaten downe the Lymbe of the young infants For if the wordes of Saint Augustine be true according to the sence whiche thou giuest vnto them the little infantes dying without baptisme are all dampned and punished in eternall â—re They are then in hell Wherefore it is not nowe néede to forge and make for them a Lymbe By that meanes all the doctrine of your doctours is here ouerthrowne And therefore they haue not all allowed that sentence but haue iudged it too rigorous and cruell in such sort that some for that cause haue called S. Augustine the hangman of the young Inâ—ants notwithstanding that he is well worthie that they doe speake of him more reucrently For I do not thinke that he himselfe would that these wordes shoulde be taken after such râ—gour and extremitie And therefore it is néede to consider the occasions which might haue moued him to write after that sort For if the necessitie and the impossibilitie excuseth the great ones wherefore shall the little ones â—e lesse excusable which haue yet more excuse then the great ones may haue For when they dye being young or in their mothers bellie or out of it what fault then was in them that they were not baptised hath God conceiued more greater hatred against them then against the great ones although the baptisme of the water shoulde be asmuch necessarie vnto saluation as you do make it if there be any exception for the ene by what right reason may it be denyed vnto the others when the cause the excuses are equall But we ought to consider that in the tâ—â—e of Saint Augustine there might be a great sort of people which had not the Sacraments in such estimation and reuerence as they ought to haue as wée haue proued it in our time in which some haue so much attributed vnto it that they haue made of the visible signes a Iesus Christ and an Idole The others to the contrarie do holde them as signes without vertue and efficacie no more then the signes which the souldiours do beare for to shewe what Prince they do serue Hillarius But haue we not had Anabaptistes which would baptise them selues againe and haue coâ—demned the baptisme of young Infants willing to deferre it vntill they should come vnto the age of discretion Theophilus Let vs not doubt that from the time of Saint Augustine but that there be many founde more negligent then they ought to he touching the sacrameÌ„ts the which thing hath coÌ„pelled the aunâ—ients to magnifie them so much And therefore those which are come after them not considering the causes wherefore they did the same haue taken the wordes rawly without a fit interpretation and without taking beede to their manner of speaking rethorically and figuratiuely which hath beene the cause that they haue made Idols as though the vertue of Iesus Christ and of the Christian religion were in those visible signes Wée cannot deny but that in the time of those good auncient fathers many after that they had knowen the Gospell tarryed not long time to cause themselues to be baptised yea often times vntill the latter end of their life Nowe they did the same some through negligence others bicause of
sainct Augustâ—â—â—ath 〈◊〉 â—◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—â—â—ly of the woeman but of the priâ—â—te and pâ—â—ticulâ—r man to witte whether hée do◠〈◊〉 i◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i◠〈◊〉 of neces 〈◊〉 To the whiâ—h â—é◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the rather for to 〈◊〉 it thâ—◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the â—easâ— wiâ—e it is a thing 〈◊〉 that â—◠〈◊〉 â—ot 〈◊〉 that it is lawfull but confeâ—â—eth 〈◊〉 that there 〈◊〉 â— certeyne fault although that â—ée made it light But he hath taken it as it happenâ—th 〈◊〉 â—â—to the good Mariners who through the â—iolâ—â—câ—s â—â— the 〈◊〉 are constrayned to 〈◊〉 from their right 〈◊〉 and to followe whether the tempestes and windes will driue and cary them There â—s no doubte that 〈◊〉 from the time of Sainâ—t Augustine that errour and custome was not any thing at all receyued Wherefore Sainct Augustine â—â—rst not altogether condempne it No more also durst hée â—o allowe it nor altogether excuse it o◠〈◊〉 Yet neuerthelesse if wée doe followe the rule of Iesus Christe that will put vs â—ut of all doubâ—e Althoughe that wée yet haue on our side the fourth Councell of Africa whiche hath forbidden the same without any exception It is most true that in the â—eâ—réâ—s â—f Graâ—ian that Canon is alledged but not accordinge to the truth as it is written in the booke of Councells For hée addeth to it the exception whiche is not in the true oryginall Hillarius Althoughe that â—here wâ—re none but the witnesses of the Priestes they doe sufficientlye declare that it is euill For when one bringeth the â—hildren to â—ée baptised they doe demaunde is there any thinge but good They demaund the same for to know whether that the Infant hath bene baptised by the woemâ—n If it hath not bene baptised thâ—â— aunswere that all is well or there is nothinge but good It followeth then that thâ—re was an euill when the childe was baptised by them Eusebius They dâ—â— not vnderstand it so as thou takest it Hillarius I beléeue thée well and I doubt not but that God will make thâ—m speake â—â— he hath made Caâ—pâ—â—es to prophecie without vnderstanding themselues Eusebius For that thou 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thy selfe so much that we haue no witnes of the Scripture how wilt thou theâ— excuse Zipphora the wiâ—e of Moses who circumcised hir sonne Eleaser in Moses own presence how hath then Moses peâ—â—â—itteâ— the same Theophilus The example is not like but rather against thée then for thée For first thou séest that Moses did not estéeme the circumcision so necessary as you estéeme the baptisme sith that he made so small accompt to circumcise his â—onne although that he had more expresse commaundement thâ—â— we haue of baptisme Furthermore notwithstanding that that place is very obsâ—ure bicause that Moses rehearseth the history â—o short and briefly Yet neuerthelesse iâ— one doe examine it throughly one shall not finde that that example can be better applyed then to the â—ispiâ—â—ng of the circumcision and of the Saâ—â—aâ—â—eâ—â—es For that which is written that the Lord or his Angell came before him and assalted him minding to kill him 〈◊〉 ently declareth that the Lord was angâ—â— bicause that Moses notwithstandinge that he had the â—â—â—e and the occasion to circumcise his sonne hath not done such diligence as he ought to haue done Wherefore the Lord punished him But as soone as the childe was circumcised he was deliuered from that daunger and the Lord did not pursue him anye more But there is an other reason when the Infantes doe dye and that there is no negligence nor default in the parentes As touching that that Zipphora did the office to circumcise not Moses we must consider that then Moses coulde not doe that bicause that he was pressed and grieued by the hande of God who would haue killed him Wherefore for to saue his lyfe Zipphora laide to hi◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For none other coulde haue done it but shée Eusebius Nowe thou art compelled to confesse that which I demaund For thou wilt excuse Zipphora bycausâ— of the necessitie whiche constrained hir no more also doe wée allow the baptisme administred by woemen and others then the ministers of the Church but in case of necessitie Theophilus I haue yet other reasons against thée The first is that wée doe not reade that God hath giuen expresse commaundement vnto men onely to circumcise as he hath doâ—e of baptising The second is there was not thâ—â—â—ny forme of the Church nor policiâ— and publike ministrie amonge the Medianites and where Moses was The third is that it is lykest to â—ée true that Zipphora did that by the commaundement of Moses hir husbande who feeling himselfe strokeâ— of God admonyshed hir to do that for to saue his life For otherwise how could â—he haue vnderstanded and knowen that hir husâ—ande had bene in daunger of death for such cause if hée had not aduertysed hir of it Although that Moses writinge briefly hath not reâ—â—â—rsed all those thinges at large But he hath made them sufficiently to bée vnderstanded Nowe if Moses did commaunde hir she did it not without the worde of God Sith that Moses was a Prophet yea him by whome God addressed and gaue his ordinaunce in the Church of Israel Furthermore although that it be so yet that example is not sufficient for to builde the baptisme of woemen against the ordinance of Iesus Christ For we ought not to draw into a generall consequence the perticuler examples of Sainctes and that which by a singuler priuiledge and dispensation hath bene somtime permitted them if we haue no expresse commaundement as they haue had or the same occasions and circumstaunces Besides that that there be some examples of holy men the which the Scripture alloweth not alwayes notwithstanding that it rehearseth them or if it doe allowe them in those there it followeth not therefore that it doth the like in vs if we haue not a certeine vocation and calling of God. Thomas I greatly feare Eusebius that in disputing after this manner the Lymbe and the Purgatorye which thou vpholdest and mainteinest will be altogether destroied and ouerthrowen For as farre as I can iudge the same of the young children is altogether throwen down to the ground if thou do not helpe it The Purgatorye hath but a little more holde There remayneth now but the Limbe of the fathers of which I do very much desire to know the resolution and to vnderstande whether it bée all one with Paradise For Theophilus hath already almost proued it to bée so speaking of the estate of those which were in Abrahams bosome Eusebius I do not deny but that the auncient Fathers which were deteined in the Limbes had already a certein participation of the celestial ioyes but not so great as they haue had after the death and passion of Iesus Christ Theophilus I hope that we shal be soone agréed and that there shall be in the ende no other difference betwéene the Sainctes which are dead vnder the