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A07698 A dyaloge of syr Thomas More knyghte: one of the counsayll of oure souerayne lorde the kyng [and] chauncellour of hys duchy of Lancaster. Wherin be treated dyuers maters, as of the veneration [and] worshyp of ymages [and] relyques, prayng to sayntys, [and] goyng o[n] pylgrymage. Wyth many othere thyngys touching the pestylent sect of Luther and Tyndale, by the tone bygone in Sarony, and by tother laboryed to be brought in to Englond; Dyaloge of dyvers maters More, Thomas, Sir, Saint, 1478-1535. 1529 (1529) STC 18084; ESTC S104969 282,100 256

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cause None other surely but that the acquayntaūce and dayly beholdyng takyth a way the wōderyng as we nothyng wonder at the ebbyng and flowyng of the see or the thamys bycause we dayly se it But he that had neuer seene it nor hard therof wolde at the fyrste syght wonder sore the●at to se that great water cum walowyng vp agaynst the wynde keping a cōmen course to and fro no cause ꝑseyued that dryueth hym If a mā borne blynde had sodēly hys syght what woūder wold he make to see the sonne the mone and the starres where as one that hathe sene them syxtene yere to gether marueylyth not so moche of thē all as he wolde wonder at the fyrst syght of a pecokkys tayle And veryly cause can I se none why we shulde of reasō mo●e maruayle of the reuyuyng of a dede mā than of the bredyng bryngyng forthe and growyng of a chyl●e vnto the state of a man No more meruelouse ys a koko thā a cokk though the tone be sene but in somer and the ●other all the yere And I am sure yf ye sawe dede mē as cōmenly called a gayne by myracle as ye se men brought forth by nature ye wolde rekē yt lesse maruayle to bryng the soule agayne into the body kepīg yet styll hys shappe and hys organys not moch pereshyd thā of a lytle seede to make all that gere new and make a newe soule therto Now yf ye neuer had sene any gonne in youre days nor herd of any before yf .ii. men shuld tell you the tone that he had wyst a mā in a pater noster while conueyd caryed a mile of from one place to a nother by myracle the tother shulde tell you that he had sene a stone more than a mannys weyght caryed more than a myle in as lyttyll space by craft whych of these wolde you by your faythe take for the more incredyble ¶ Surely q he both twayne were very strange But yet I could not chese but thynke yt were rather trewe y● god dyd the tone than that any crafte of mā coulde do the tother well quod I let vs than to oure thryde ensample If it were shewed you that saynt Etkenwalde or hys s●ster drewe out a pece of tīber that was cut to shorte for the rofe ī makyng barkyng abbey shulde thys be so incredyble to you to beleue that they drewe in lenght a pece of wood by the power and helpe of goddys hād whā we se dayly a grete pece of syluer brasse laten or iren drawen a lenght īto smale wyer as wōderfully by mannys hand ¶ The .xi. chapiter ¶ The author shewyth that a myracle is not to be mystrustyd thogh yt be done in a small mater and semith vppon a sleyght occasyon NOw though ye wold paraduenture as ye seme to do reken thys cause very sleyght for god to shew sych an hygh myracle syth there myght haue bene wtout myracle a lenger pece of tymber gotten so ye wold happely mystrust yt for the slender occasion resemblyng yt to the myscastynge of some good huswyuys kays god hath I wene so much wyt of hym selfe that he nedyth not our aduyce to ēforme hym what thyng were suffycyent occasyon to worke hys wonders for But if ye rede in the bokys of Cassyan saynte Gregory saynt Austyne saynt Hyerom many other holy vertuous men ye shall excepte ye beleue thē not lerne know that god hath for hys saruantys don many a gret myracle in very small maters And so mych the more ar we boundē to hys goodnes in that he vouchesauyth so famylyerly in smal thīgꝭ to shew vs so gret a tokē of his mighty godhed no resō wer it to wtdraw his thāk honor because of his famylyer goodnes And yf ye parauēture wold not beleue theyr wrytyngꝭ go to Crystꝭ gospell loke on hys fyrst myracle whether he myght not haue ꝓuydyd for wine without miracle But such was his pleasure in a small mater to do a greate myracle for sum shew of hys godhed amōg them whō he vouch saufyd where on the tother syde afore Herode that wold fayn haue sene sum myracle where yt stode vppon his lyfe myght haue delyueryd hym from the iewes yet wolde he not vouchsafe eyther to shew the proud curyouse kyng one myracle or speke one word So that tymys placys occasyons reason is that we suffer to rest in hys arbyterment not loke to prescrybe appoynt at our pleasure and ellys blaspheme theym say we wyll not beleue them ¶ The .xii. chapiter ¶ The author sumwhat notyth the froward myndys of many folk that wold be very hard to beleue a man in a myracle vppon his othe very light in a shrewd tale to beleue a woman on her word NOw where ye requyre how many witnes shuld be requisite and suffice to make you thynk your self in reson to haue good cause to beleue so strange a thyng me thynkyth that ryght few were suffycyent of them that wold say they saw a grete good thyng done by the power goodnes of god except it be harde for vs to beleue eyther that god ys so myghty that he may do it or so good that he wold do it ¶ But because ye wold wit of me how many recordys were requysyte the thīg standyth not so much in nomber as in weyght Some twayn be more credyble than sum .x. And albe yt y● I se not greatly why I shuld mystrust any one that semith honest tellith a good tale of god in whych there apperyth no specyall cause of lyeng yet yf any wytnes wyll serue you thā wold I wyt of you how many your self wold agre For I now put case that there cam .x. dyuers honest men of good substaunce out of .x. dyuers partyes of the realme ●che off them wyth an offeryng at one pylgrymage as for ensample at our Lady of Ipswych ech one of them affyrming vppon theyr othe a myracle don vppō them self in sum grete so dayn help wel apperyng to passe the power of crafte or nature wold ye not beleue that amōg them all at the lestwyse twayn of those .x. sayd trew ¶ No by oure lady q he not they were .x. and .xx. ¶ why so q I. ¶ Mary quod he for wer they neuer so many hauyng none other wytnesse but eche man tellyng hys tale for hym selfe they be but syngle all lesse than syngle for euery myracle hath but one record and yet he not credable in hys owne cause so neuer a myracle well ꝓuyd ¶ well sayd I I lyke well your wysdome that ye be so cyrcumspect that ye wyll nothyng beleue without good suffycyent full profe I put you than quod I a nother case that .x. yong womē not very specially known for good but takē out at auēture dwellyng all in one towne wold report tell that a frere of good fame heryng theyr confessyons at a pardon
fayn fyrst here of you what dystynccyon and dyfferēce ys that that ye make and wherfore ye make it bitwene the myracles don of olde tyme and these that be now adayes don at these pylgrymagys Syr quod he sum what a lytle I towched yt in the begynnyng made in maner a glaunce therat But loth wer I to hyt yt wyth a full shot and a sharpe as I haue sene sum wyth suche reasons cleeue the pryk in twayne that they semyd to bere ouer the but And all●whych reasons I wolde be loth in so sore maner to allege lest I myght happely gyue you sū occasyō to thynk that eyther I set to sumwhat of myne owne or elles at the leste wyse lyked well that syde and wer a fauorer of the factyō Nay nay quod I fere not that hardely for neyther ā I so suspecyouse to mystrust that one thynkyth euyll because he defēdeth the worse parte well by way of argumente and reasonyng And also I truste that all theyr shottꝭ shal be so far to feble to bere ouer that but that few of them shall towche the mark many to faynt to perce the paper And sum to hygh and sum to shorte And some walk to wyde of that but by a bow And therfore I requyre you spare not to bryng forth all that euer ye haue harde ●or that ye thynke may be sayde in the mater ¶ Syr quod he syth ye can here yt so indyfferently I shall not spare to speke it And suerly to begynne wtall that I thynk trew I wyll not fayle to confesse For albe yt that I haue long stycked wyth you to wythstand any credence to be geuē to myracles dō now adayes in whych I haue moch the lēget stykked bycause of sum whom I haue knowē ere thys so farre from the byleue of any myracles at all that in good feyth they put me half ī dowte whether they beleue that there wer god at all if they du●st for drede shame haue sayd all that they semed to thynk yet to saye the truth I neuer hard any thyng sayd so sore therin that euer moued me to thynk that any reason wold bere the importune mystrust of them that amōg so many ā open myracle as ys dayly in dyuers placys doon wolde wene that none at all wer trew But veryly as I begōne a lytell to touche in the begynnynge whether these myracles be made by god for good sayntys or by the deuyll for oure deceyt and delusyon albeyt I beleue euer wyll as the chyrch doth yet sum men among sum such thyngꝭ say therin that I am dryuē to doo as I do in other articlys of the fayth lene fast vnto belefe for any reason that I fynde to make them āswere wyth For fyrst they take for a groūde that the deuill may do myracles Or yf we lyst not to suffer thē callyd by that name the mater shal be therby nothyng amēded for yf we wyll haue only called by the name of myracles thyngys by god dō aboue nature yet wyll we not deny but that god sufferethe the deuyll to worke wonders whych the people cā not dyscerne from myracles And therfore whē they se them myracles shall they call them and for myracles shall they take them Now syth yt so is that the deuyll may do suche thyngys whereby shall we be ●ure that god doth them And syth the dyuyll may do theym we be not sure that god doth them why may not we aswell beleue that the dyuyll doth them ¶ Mary sayd I ye told me that ye sett noght by Logyk but now ye play the Logycyen out ryghte Howe be yt that argument men may torne ō the tother syde saye that syth god may do them mych beter than the dyuyll and we be not sure that the dyuyll doth thē why shulde we not rather beleeue that god doth them whych may do them beter And myche more reason yt ys where a wonderfull work ys wrought there to ascrybe yt to god the master of all mastryes rathere than the dyuyll that can do nothyng but by su●fraunce excepte we se some cause that cānot suffer that work to be rekenyd goddys ¶ well q he than is yt reason that we shew you sum such cause It ys quod he cause ynoughe in that we se that god hath yn scrypture forboden suche ymagry and that vnder great maledyccyon As yn the law Non facies tib● sculptile And ī the psalme In exitu israel de egipto where he furst by the mouth of the Prophete dyscrybyth the folye of suche as worshyppyth those imagys that hath crys and cannot here handis and can not feele fete and cannot go mouth cannot speke All whych absurdytees vnresonable folyes apperyth aswell in the worshyp of our imagꝭ as in the panyms idollys And after he shewith the maledyccion that shall fall theruppō Seynge lyke mote they be to them all such as make them all suche as puttyth theyr trust in thē And forthwyth he declareth in whom good men haue theyr trust and the profyte that procedyth theruppon saynge Domus israel sperauit in domino adiutor eorū et ꝓtector eorumest The house of Israell hath put they re truste in our lorde the helper and defender of thē ys he Now when the wordys of god be clere open and playne vppon thys syde what reason ys yt to beleue the cōmentys and glosys of menne wherewyth ye wold wynde owt agaynst she trew textys of god what shulde we gyue credens to thēnsample of mēnys doyngꝭ ageynst the playne commaūdement of goddys wrytyngys And whē that ōly chryste ys our sauyour and our medyatour to bryng our nature agayne to god and our oonly proctour and aduocat afore hys father and may helpe vs best and will helpe vs most what shall we make eyther our lady or ēny other creature our aduocat or praye to thē whych of lykelyhod here vs not For there can none of them be present at so many placys at onys as they be callede vppon and if they were yet arte they no nere vs then god hī selfe nor so fayne wold that we dyd well as he that dyed for vs. and therfore whā we not only doo thē reuerence whyche I were contēt wer done them for goddes sake as ye sayd before but also praye to them we doo chryste and god great Iniury For yf we pray to thē as medytours aduocatꝭ for vs we take fro Cryste hys office gyue yt them yf we aske helpe helth of them then make we thē playne god dys and betake to them the power of the godhed For only god ys yt that geuethe all good as wytnessyth saynt Iames. Euery good and very perfyte gyfte cōmeth from aboue descendyng from the father of lyghtys And suerly yf we cōsyder how we behaue vs to thē though ye saye that all the honoure geuen to sayntes redoundeth vnto god syth yt ys doon as ye saye not for theyr
yt. wheruppon I demaunded hym that yf it so were that the thyng stādyng in debate questyō it wold lyke our lord to shew a myracle for the proffe of the tone parte wolde ye not quod I reken than the questyon were decyded the dowte assoyled and that parte suffycyently proued● yes mary quod he that wold I. well quod I than ys thys matter oute of doute lōg a go for god hath ꝓued my parte in dyuerse pylgrymagꝭ by the workyng of many moo thā a thousād myracles one tyme and other In the gospell of Iohn the fyft chapiter where we rede that the angell moued the water who so next went in was cured of hys dysease was it not a suffycyent profe that god wold they shuld cum thether for theyr helth Albe yt no man can telle why he sentt thāgell rather thyther there dyd hys myracles than in a nother water But whan so euer oure lorde hathe in any place wrought a myracle all though he nothīg do it for the place but for the honor of the saynt whom he wyll haue honored in that place or for the fayeth that he fyndeth wyth some that prayeth in that place or for thencrease of fayeth whych he fyndeth fallynge and decayed in that place nedyng the shewe of sō myracles for the reuyuyng what so euer the cause be yet I thynke thaffeccyon is to be cōmended of men and women that with good deu●cyon rōne thether where they see or here that our lord sheweth a demōstracyon of hys specyall assystēce And whan he sheweth many in ●one place it ys a good tokē that he wold be sought vppon and worshypped there Many iewes were ther that cā to hyerusalem to se the myracle that chryst had wroght vppon lazare as the gospell reherseth and suerly we were worse than iewes yf we wold be so neclygent that where god worketh myracles we lyste not ●ons go moue our fote thetherwarde we marueyle moch that god shewethe ●omoo myracles nowe a dayes whan yt ys mych more maruell that he doth vouchsaufe to shewe any at all among such vnkynde slouthfull dedely people as lyst not oones lyfte vp theyr heddꝭ to loke theron or that our incredulyte cā suffer hym nowe adays to worke eny ¶ The .v. chapiter ¶ Because pylgrimagꝭ be amōg other ꝓuys testyfyed by myracles the messēger doth make obieccyō agaīst those myracles partely lest they be faynyd vntrew partly lest they be done by the deuill if they be dōe at all THā sayd your frēd well I ꝑseue thē y● force effect of all the ꝓfe stādyth all in myracles whych I wyll agree to be a strōg ꝓfe yf I saw thē dō and wer sure y● god or good sayntꝭ did them But fyrst syth the mē may happely do of myracles make many a lye we must not proue thys matter by the myracles but yf we furste proue that the myracles were trew And ouer thys yf they were doon in ded yet sith the āgell of darknes may trāsforme trāsfigure hym self in to an āgell of lyght howe shall we know whether the myracle were don by god to thēcrease of crystē deuocyō or dō by the craft of the deuyl to thaduaūcemēt of mysbyleue idolatrye in settyng mēnys hartys vppon stokkys stones in stede of sayntys or vppon sayntys them self that are but creatures in stede of god hym self ¶ I answered hym that the force off my tale was not the myracles but the thyng that I hold stronger thē any myracles whych as I sayed in the begynyng I rekē so sure fast therw t so playne euydēt vnto euery crystē mā that it nedeth no other profe and the thyng is as I layed afore the fayth of chrystꝭ chyrch by the comē cōsent wherof these maters be decyded well knowē that the worshyp of sayntys imagys been allowed apꝓbate accustumed for good chrysten merytoryous vertues and the cōtrary opynyon not only reproued by many holy doctours but also cōdēpned for heresyes by sundry generall coūsayls And thys in the begynyng I told you q I was shuld be the force strēgh of my tale Albe yt of trouthe I sayed vnto you besyde that me thoght that the myracles wrought by god were suffycyēt profe auctoryte therefore all though there were none other whych thyng syth ye seme to inpugne I shall as I cā make you āswer therunto ¶ Nay syr sayꝭ he I pray you take me not soo as though that I dyd impugne it but as I shewd ye beefore I rehersyd you what I haue hard som other saye In good tyme q I. Thā becaus they be not here I prey you defēd bere out theyr ꝑte with all that ye haue hard thē saye And sett therto also all that euer your own mynd geueth you that they may more heraftyr saye lest you retorn not fully furnishid for your purpose The .vi chapiter ¶ Because the messenger thynkyth that he may well mystrust and deny the myracles bycause reason and nature telle hym that they can not be dō therfore fyrst y● author sheweth what vnresonablenes wold ensue if folke wold stand so styffe agaynst all credence to be geuen to any such thyng as reason and nature shuld seme to gayne saye ANd fyrst where ye say Nay quod he where they saye well quod I soo be it where they saye For here euer my tonge tryppythe But now therfore fyrste where they saye that they neuer sawe any of these myracles theym self and therfore the myracles be no profe to them whych whyle they neuer sawe them are not boundē to be leue them they seme eyther very necligent yf they nothyng ●●uere whā they mystrust dout of the trouth in such a wayghty matter or yf they haue dylygētly made enserche than must it nedꝭ be that they haue hard of so many tolde rehersyd by the mou●hes the writing of so good and credyble personis that the ye seeme vnreasonably suspycyous yf they thynke all to gether lyes that so many tre● mē or mē like to be trew so faythfully do report If these mē were ●uggys fewe maters wold take ēde at theyr hād or at the le●t y● playntife shuld haue well spede if they wold bileue no thyng but that were proued nor rekē nothīg proued but that they se them selfe ¶ Thus may euery man rekē him selfe vnsure of hys owne father if he beleue no mā or bycause all the profe therof stādyth but vpō one woman And that vpō her whych though she can tell best yet yf yt be wrong hath gr●test cause to ly Let the knowlege of y● father alone ther fore amōg our wy●●y● mysteries And lett vs se yf we beleue nothynge but y● we se our self who cā rekē him self sure of hys own mother for pos●●ble it were y● he were chaunged in the cradell and a ●yche mānis 〈◊〉 bring hō● h●r owne chylde for her masters kepe her masters for her own
of that thynge that ys of hys own nature the best And therfore gret labour makyth he grete bost if he bryng it aboute that a good wyt may abuse hys labour bestowed vppō the ●●udy of holy scrypture ¶ For the sure auoydyng wherof my poor aduyce were in the study therof to haue a specyall regard to the wrytingꝭ cōmentys of olde holy fathers And yet or he fall in hand wyth the tone or the tother next grace helpe of god to be gotē with abstynēs prayour clēnes of lyuīg afore all thing were it necessary to come well surely enstructyd in all such poyntys artycles as the church beleuyth whych thyngys onys fyrmly had ād fastely for vndowtyd trouthes presupposyd then shall reson they be two good rulys to examyne expown ●ll doutfull textis by syth the reder shall be sure that no texte ys so to be vnder●●andē as it standeth agaynst thē both or agaynst any poynt of the catholyke ●ayth of Crystys church And therfore yf yt seme to stand agaynst any of thē ●yther shall the lyght of naturall reasō wyth the collacyō of other textys help to fynde out the truth or els whych is the surest way he shall ꝑceyue the trouthe in the cōmētys of the good holy doctors of old to whō god hath gyuen the grace of vnderstandynge Or fynally if all that he can ether fynde in other mēny● workys or inuent by goddys ayde of hys owne study can not suffyce to satysfy but that any text yet seme vnto hym contrary to any poynt of the churchys fayth belefe let hym then as saynt Augustyne sayth make hym selfe very sure that there is some ●aut eyther in the trāslatour or in the wryter or now a days ī the prynter or fynally that for some one lett or othe● he vnderstandeth yt not a ryght And so let hym reuerētly knowlege hys ignoraunce lene cleue to the fayth of the chyrch as to an vndoutyd trothe leuing the text to be beter parceyuyd whan it shall please our lord wyth his lyght to reuele disclose it And in thys wyse shall he take for a sure way by whyche he shal be sure of one of two thyngys that ys to wyt eyther to parceyue vnderstād the scrypture right or els at the lest wise neuer in such wise to take it wrong that euer may turne hys soule to parell The .xxiii. chapyter ¶ The messenger obiectyth agaynst the councell of the author in that he wold that the studēt of scrypture shuld lene to the cōmentours vnto naturall reson whych he callyth enmy to fayth And theruppon thanswere of thauthor to those obiectyons specyally prouyng y● reason is seruant to fayth not enmy must with fayth interpretacyon of scrypture nedys be concurraunt SIr quod he I wyll not say naye but thys way will do well Howbeyt I fere me that we were lykly to byld vp many errors if we square our tymber stonys by these .iii. rulys mēnys glosys reason and fayth not that we fynde in scrypture but that we brynge wyth vs to scrypture For furste as for the cōmentours that y● speke of ether theyr commentys tell vs the same tale that the texte doth or els a nother If they tell me the same I beleeue theym onely because the texte sayth the same yf they tell me a nother than beleue I them not at all nor nought I shulde except I shuld beleue men better than god And for as for reson what greter enmy can ye fynde to fayth thā reason is whych counterpledyth fayth in euery poynt And wolde ye then send thē twayn forth to scole to gether that can neuer agree to gether but bee redy to fyght to gether eyther scratch out others eyes by the waye It semyth also sumwhat strange that when god hath left vs in hys holy scrypture well and suffycyently hys doctryne wherby he wold we shuld h●ue warnīg of all such thyng as he wold we shuld beleue and go or leue vndone and hath left vs the scrypture for none other cause but for that yt shuld stād vnto vs for the wytnes of hys wyll declared vs by wrytyng that we shuld not say nay but we wer warned nōe other cause why the scrypture shuld be gyuē vs but to tell vs hys plesure styr vs to fulfull it we shal now not shape our fayth after the scrypture but furst frame vs a f●yth our selfe ād thē shape the scrypture of god therby and make yt agree therto Thys wer ī dede a good easy waye for a slouthfull mason that wer an euyll work man to make him a squyer and a ruler of lede that when he lyste not to take the lobour to he we the stone to the squyer he may bende the squyer to the stone and soo shall he yet brynge them to geder at the leste wayes ¶ As for the olde cōmentours quod I they tell you the same tale that the texte doth but they tell yt you more playne as we shall more talke of after But surly ye begyld me now in that ye set reason so shorte for veryly I wold neuer haue went that ye wold in scrypture lyke worse a wyse mā thē an vnresonable reder Nor I cā not se why ye shuld reken reasō for an enemy to faythe excepte ye reken euery man for your enemye that is youre better hurteth you not Thus wer ōe of your .v. wytys enemy to a nother And our feling shuld abhorre our sight because we may se further by .iiii. myle thē we may fele How can reasō but yf reason be vnresonable haue more dysdayne to here the trouth of eny poynt of fayth then to se the profe of many thyngꝭ naturall wherof reasō cā no more attayn to the cause then it can in the Artycle of the fayth But styll for eny power the reason hath to perceyue the cause she shall iuge it impossible after she proue it trew but if she byleue her eye better then her wytt ¶ when ye se the adamant stone drawe iren to it it greueth not reason to loke theron but reason hath a pleasure to beholde the thing that passeth her power to perceyue For it is as playne agaynst the rule of reason that an heuy body shulde moue alone any other mocyon then dounward or that any bodely thyng shuld drawe a nother wythoute touchyng as ys any artycle of the fayth Nor neuer was there yet cause by reason assigned that mē may perseyue for probable but only that it ys a secret properte of the stone which is as moch to say as I wot nere what And yet as I saye reason can byleue● that thing well ynoughe and be not angry therwyth nor stryue agaynste yt And yet all the rulys that euer she lernyd tell her styll that it may not be ● ye quod he but a mannys own eyen tell hym that yt may be that must nedys contente hym ¶ May a
were layd to the charge not onely of that man ye wrote of but also of Luther hym selfe otherwyse than coud be proued I dyd so mych therin that I was suffred to se shewe hym as well the bokys of the tone as the very a●tys of the court cōcernyng that tother that we myght both by so myche the more surely wartaūt you the trouth wherin yf ye fynde eny man y● yet dowteth whether he tolde you and I wryte you the trouth or not I shall yf he vnderstand the laryne tong fynde the mean at your pleasure that he shall so see the bokys hym selfe that were he neuer so full of mystrustynge he shall not fayle to be fully cōtent satysfyed And thys warrātyse wyll I make you as farforth as con●erneth eny acte done here But as for thyngys reasoned and dysputed bytwene vs the cōclusyons selfe be so sure truthes that the● be not dysputable But whither the reasons by me made in thē bēeffectuall or insufficyēt albe it your frend eyther for ȳ● of trouth he thought so or for that of curtesye he sayd so accepted them for good yet wthout preiudyce of the prīcipall maters ye may your self be iuge And thus I pray you take in good worthe the lytle laboure great good wyll of hym whom in eny thyng that may do you pleasure ye maye to the vttermost of hys lytell power well and boldely commaūd And thus our lorde send you with my good lady your bedfelow all yours as hartely well to fare as ye wolde all wysh yOur frende fyrst after your letter redde whan I demaūded hym hys credence shewed me that ye had sent hym to me not for eny dowte that your self had in many of those thingis that he shuld moue vnto me but for the dowte that ye perceyued in many other and ī sum folke playne parsuasyō to ȳe cōtrary whom ye wolde be glad to answere wyth the trouthe albe yt some thyngys he sayd were also there so talked that ye wyst not well your self which part ye myght bileue For it was there not only spokē but also thether wryten by dyuers honest pre●●ys owte of londō that the mā ye wryte of was of many thyngys bor●e wrong in hand and therin so sore handelyd that he was forced to forswere ab●ure certayn herysyes and opēly put to penaunce therfore where he neuere held eny such And all thys don for malyce and enuye partely of some freres agaynste whose abusyons he preched partly for that he preched boldly agaynste the pompe and pryde and other inordynate lyuynge that mo men speke of th●̄ preche of vsed in the clargye And they take for a gret tokyn that he shuld not meane euyll the prose and experyence whych men haue had of him that he lyued well and was a good honest vertuouse man farre from ambycyon and desyre of wordly worship chaste humble charytable free lyberall in almose dede and a very goodly prechour in whose deuowte sermons the peple were greatly edyfyed And therfore the peple say that all thys gere ys done but onely to stoppe mēnys mouthys to put euery mā to sylence that wold eny thynge speke of the ●autys of the clargy And they thynk that for none other cause was also burned at Poulys crosse the new testamēt late traunslated in ēglyshe by Master wyllyam huchen otherwyse called Master Tīdall who was as mē say well knowen ere he went ouer the see for a mā of ryght good lyuynge studyouse well lerned in scrypture and in dyuerse pl●cys in Englonde was very well lyked dyd great good wyth prechyng And men mutter amonge thē selfe that the boke was not onely fawtlesse but also very well traunslatyd was deuyse●● to be burned bycause mē shuld not be able to proue that such fawtys as were at Poules crosse declared to haue bē foūden in it were neuer foūdē ther ī dede but vntruly surmised And yet such as they were sum men say were no fautis at all if they had be so trāslated ī dede but blame layed ●awte foūd with thingꝭ nothyng 〈◊〉 worthy onely to ●●face the holy worke to th ende that they myght seme to haue some iuste cause to burne yt And that for none other cause but for to kepe owt of the peples hād is all knowlege of Cristꝭ gospell of goddis law excepte so mych onely as the clargye thē self lyste now thā to tell vs. And that lytle as it is seldom shewed yet as it ys fered not well truly tolde but watered with false gloses altered from the trouthe of the very wordis sentence of scriptur ōly for the mayntenaūs of theyr authoryte ¶ And ȳ● fere lest thys thyng shulde euydentely appere to the people yf they were suffered to rede the scripture thē self in theyr own tong was as yt is thoght the very cause not ōly for whych the new testamēt trāslated by Tīdale was burned but also that the clargye of thys realme hath bifore thys time by a cōstitucion prouyncyall prohybyted eny boke of scrypture to be traunslated in to the englysh tonge ferynge men wyth fyer as herytyques whose so shulde presume to kepe thē As though yt were heresie for a chrystē mā to rede crystꝭ gospell ¶ And surely syr quod he sum folke that thynk thys dealyng of the clargye to be thus and good men to be myshandlyd for declaryng the trouth And the scripture selfe to be pulled owte of the peples handys leste they shulde perceyue the trouthe be ledde in they re myndys to dowte whither Luther hī self of whose opinions or at the leste of whose workys all these bysynesse bygan wrote in dede so euyll as he ys borne in hande And many men therbe that thynke he neuer mente such thingis But that bycause he wrote agaynste thabusyons of pardons and spake sūwhat lyberally agaynste the courte of Rome and generally agaynste the vycys of the clargy therfore he was brought ī hatered and fyrst cyted to Rome And wh●n that forfere of bodely harme wyth wrong whereof yt wolde haue bene to late or loke for remedy after if he had ones be burnede vp byfore he durste not come thether than was he accursed and hys bokes dampned vnder great paynis forbodden to be redd And that thyng done bycause it shulde not be knowen what wronge he had and that he neyther meaneth nor sayeth such odyouse and abomynable heresyes as the people be borne in hand to enduce them to hatered of hī as yt wolde ꝑauēture appere y● hys b●kis were suffered to be redde ¶ And they sey that yt were no mastry to make yt seme that a man shulde be ā herytyque yf he may be borne in hand that he sayeth the thynge whych he neuer sayd or ꝑaduēture one lyne taken out amonge meny and myscōstrewed not suffering the remnante to be sene wherby yt myghte more clerely appere what he meanyth By whych maner of delynge a man
ī that holy man so strongly that he with few wordꝭ of saynt amphybalus at y● sight of that blessed ymage whych our lorde had before shewid hym ī hys slepe was clene turned to chrystendome And in the worshyping of y● same ymage was taken and brought forth to iudgemēt afterward to marterdome ¶ And there ys no man but yf he loue a nother he delitith ī his ymage or enythyng of hys And these heretyques that be so sore agaynst the ymagis of god hys holy sayntis wold be yet ryght angry with●●n that wold dishonestly handle an ymage made in remembraunce of hī self where y● wrethis forbere not vilanously to handle and to cast dyrte in dispyte vppon the holy crucyfyx anymage made in remembraunce of our sauiour hym selfe and not only of his most blessyd ꝑson but also of hys most bytter passion ¶ Now as touching prayer made vnto the sayntis and worshyp done vnto theym mich meruayle is it what cause of malice these heretykꝭ haue to them we se yt commen in the wreched cōdycyon of thys world that one man of a pride in him self hath enuy at a nother or for displasure done beryth to some other malyce and euyll wyll But this must nedꝭ be a deuelish hatred to hate him whom thou neuer knewist which neuer did the harme which if he could now do that no good where he is yet eyther wyth hys good ensample gone before the or hys good doctryne lefte byhynde hym doth the but if thou be very nought of thy self gret good ī this worlde for thy iorney toward heuyn And thys muste nedys be an enuy cūmyng of an hye deuelyshe pryde and far passyng thenuye of the deuyll hymself for he neuer enuyed but such as he saw was conuersaunt wyth as whā he saw man and the glory of god But these herytyques enuye theym whome they neuer saw nor neuer shall se but whan they shal be sory and ashamed in theym self of that gloryouse syght ¶ For where they pretend the zele of goddys honour hī●elf as though god to whō only all honour and glory is to be geuen were dyshonored in that sum honour is done to hys holy sayntys they be not so mad nor so chyldyshe as they make theim self For if all honour were so to be geuen only to god that we shulde gyue none to no creature where were than goddys precepte of honour to be geuyn to our father mother to pryncys gouernours rulers here in erthe And as saynt Poule sayth euery man to other ¶ And well they wote that the chyrch worshyppeth not saītys as god but as goddis good saruauntis therfore the honour that is done to theym redoundeth pryncypally to the honour of theyr mayster lyke as in comē custū of people we do reuerence sumtyme make great chere to sum men for theyr maysters sakes whome ellys we wold not happely byd ones good morow ¶ And surely if eny benefite or almes done to one of crystꝭ pore folke for hys sake be by hys hygh goodnes reputed and accepted as done vnto hym self And that who so receyuyth one of hys aposteles or dyscyples receyuyth hym selfe euery wyse man may well cōsyder that in lyke wyse who so doth honour hys holy sayntis for his sake doth honour hym self Excepte these herytyques wene that god were as enuyouse as they be theym selfe And that he wolde be wroth to haue eny honour done to eny other though it therby redounded vnto hymselfe whereof our sauyoure cryste well declareth the contrary for he sheweth hym self so well cōtent that hys holy sayntys shal be pertyners of hys honoure that he promysyth his aposteles that at the dredfull dome whā he shall cum in hys hygh maiestye they shall haue theyr honourable seetis and sytte wyth hym selfe vppon the iudegement of the worlde ¶ Cryste also ꝓmised that saynt mary magdalene shulde be worshyped thorow the worlde and haue here an honorable remembraūce for that she bestowed that precyouse oyntement vppon hys holy hed whych thyng whan I consyder it makyth me meruayle of the madnes of these heretiques that barke agaynst the old aūcient customes of crystys chyrch mockyng the settyng vppe of cādellys and wyth folyshe facecyes blasphemous mockery demaunde whyther god and hys sayntys lak lyght or whyther yt be nyght wyth theym that they can not see wythoute candle They myght as well aske what good dyd that oyntemēt to christꝭ hed But the heretyques gruge at the coste now as they re brother Iudas dyd than And say it were better spent in almys vppon pore folk And thys say many of theym whyche can neyther fynde in they re harte to spēd vppon y● one nor the tother And sum spend sometyme vppon the tone for none other entent but to th ēd that they may the more boldely rebuke and rayle agaynste the tother But let thē all by that ensample of the holy woman and by those wordys of our sauyour lerne that god delyteth to se the feruēt hete of y● hartꝭ deuociō boyl out by the body And to do hī seruyse with all such goodꝭ of fortūe as god hath geuī mā ¶ what ryches deuysed our lord god hym selfe in the making garnishyng of y● tēple in the ornamentes of the auter and the prestes apparayle what was him selfe the better for all thys what for the bestꝭ that hym self cōmaūded to be offred hym in sacryfyce what for the swete odours and frankensence why do these heretiques more mocke at the maner of crystꝭ chyrche than they do at the maner of the iewes synagoge but yf they be beter iewes thā crysten mē ¶ If mē wyll say that the mony were better spent amōg poore folke by whō he more setteth beyng the quycke temples of the holy goste made by hys owne hand than by the temples of stone made by the hand of man Thys wold be percase very trew if there were so lytle to do yt wyth that we shuld be dreuyn of necessyte to leue the tone vndōe But god geuyth inough for both And geuyth dyuerse men dyuers kyndys of deuocyō and all to hys pleasure In which as thapostle Poule sayth let euery mā for hys parte aboūde be plentuouse in that kynde of vertu that the spyryte of god guydeth hym to not to be of the folyshe mynde y● luther is which wisheth in a sermō of his that he had in hys hād all the perys of the holy crosse And saith that yf he so had he wold throw them there as neuer sonne shuld shyne on thē And for what worshup full reasō wold the wreche do such velany to the crosse of chryst by cause as he sayth that there is so mych golde now bestowed aboute the garneshyng of the pyecys of the crosse that there is none lefte for pore folke Is not thys ā high reason as though all the golde that is now bestowed aboute the pecys of the holy crosse wolde not haue faylede to
to make her o●● a gētylmā good ●h●pe And thys were no grete mastery whyle the mother hath of her owne child no ●re marke ¶ Sir q your frend yf I shuld 〈…〉 by thes exāples proue thē that they wer of reasō boūdē to beleue 〈◊〉 ●●●●●les as were reportyd bycause many ●●●dyble mē tell thē for as mo●● as ●●ys we shuld bileue nothīg but that 〈◊〉 ●e our self and than were all the ●●rld full of cō●u●yon nor no iudgmēt could be geu● but vppō thyngys 〈◊〉 iudgꝭ ●ight I shuld I fere me very ●ebly saty●●y them For they wolde 〈◊〉 say that t●ē samples be nothynge like y● mater But as it is reasō that I shuld beleue honeste mē in all such thyngꝭ as may be trew whereī I se no cause why they shuld lye so were agayn●● all reasō to bileue mē be they neuer so many seme they neuer so credible where as reasō nature of whych tw●yne euery one ys alone more credyble then they all sheweth me plainly that they re tal● is vntrew as yt muste nedy● yf the matter be unpossyble as it is in all ●hes myr●cles And in such case though I can ●seue no ꝓfit that they cā receyue therby yet wh● I wel se that it coud not be trew I must well se that it 〈◊〉 not tre●● And therby must I nedi●●●owe that y● they can take no profyt by lying they ly not for eny coueryer but euē ōly for theyr specyall pleasure ¶ Forsoth q I thys is right meryly āswered to say the trothe as far as we be yet gone in the matter of these myracles not my 〈◊〉 amysse nor very far fro the poynt But syth thys thyng ys mych materyal● as wheruppō many grete thy●●ys do depend we shall no● so shortely sha●e y● of but we shall cum one ●●ep or 〈◊〉 nere to y● matter And fyr●● I wy●● say to thē that it were hard for them n●● very sure to beleue that euery ●ā lyeth why●h tellyth thē a tale for trew the re●● nature semyth to she● thē to be fals īpossible For ī this w●●e shall they in many thīgys erre clerely deceyue th●̄ self And ●●tyme 〈◊〉 they make th●̄ selfe sure 〈◊〉 y● wrōg syde yf they wol● 〈…〉 done beleue no man that tell yt them able yt that yt be no perell to theyr soule yet so much haue they knowlege the les vnresonably stande in theyr ●●●our ●horow the mystrustyng of the trewth ¶ It ys not yet fyfty yeres a goo syns y● furst man as far as mē haue hard cāe to lōdon that euer parted y● gylt from the syluer consumyng shorte●y the syluer into dust with a very fayer water In so farr forth that whan the fyners and goldsmythes of london hard fy●st therof they nothynge wondred therof but laughed thereat as at an impossyble ly ī which perswasions if they had cōtynued styll ●hey had yet at this day la●●ed all that connyng ¶ yet wyll I not say nay but that a man may be to lyght in beleue and be by such ensamples brought into beleue to farr As ● good fe●ow and frend of myne late ī talkyng of this matter of marueylys miracles entending merely to make me beleue for a trouth a thyng that could neuer be fyrst brought in what a force the fyre hath that will make two peces of yron able to be ioyned and cleue to gyther and wyth the helpe of the h●me●●e made both one which no h●meryng could do wythout the fyre whych thīg because I dayly see I assented Than sayed he ferther that yet was more maruayle that the fyer shall make ●●en to ●ōne as syluer or lead doth make it take a prynt whych thyng I told hym I had neuer sene but byc●use he sayed he had sene it I thought it to be trew Sone after thys he wold haue me to beleue that he had sene a pece of syluer of twoo or thre inchys aboute in lēgth leesse than afote drawē by mānes hād thorowe strayte holes made in a irone tyll it was brought in thyknesse not halfe a inche aboute ī lēgth drawē oute I cannot tell how many yardys And whē I hard hī say that he sawe thys hī selfe thā I wyst well he was merely dysposed Mary syr q your frēde it was hye time to gyue him ouer whā he cā to y● well said I what yf I shuld tell you now that I had seen the same by my faythe q he merely I wold beleue it at leysour whan I had seen the same and in the meane whyle I could not let you to say your pleasure ī your own house but I wold thynk that ye were dysposed merely to make me a fole wel seyd I what yf there wold besydys me ten or .xx. good honest men tell you the same tale and that they had all seen the thīg done them self In fayth quod he syth I am sēt hyther to beleue you I wold in that poynt beleue your self alone as well as them all well quod I ye mean ye wold beleue vs all a lyke But what wold you than say yf one or twayne of them wold say more Mary q he than wold I beleue them lesse what yf they wold q I shew you that they haue seene that the pece of syluer was ouer gylt the same pece beyng styll drawen thorow the holes the gylt not rubbyd of but styll goo forth ī lenght wyth the syluer so that all the lenght of many yerdꝭ was gylted of the gyltynge of the fyrst pece not a fote longe Surely syr quod he those twayne that wold tell me so moche more I wold saye were not so cūnyng in the mayntenāce of a lye as was the pylgrymys companyon whyth whan hys felowe had told at yorke that he had seene of late at londō a byrde that keuered all poules chyrch yarde with hys wyngys commynge to the same place on the morowe sayd that he sawe not that byrde but he harde mych speeche therof but he saw in Powles chyrche yard an egge so greate that .x. menne could scant moue yt wyth leuers thys felowe could help it forth wyth a proper syde way But he were no good vnder propper of a lye that wold mynyshe hys credence wyth afyrmyng all the fy●st and settyng a lowder lye therto well sayd I thā I haue espied if .x. shuld tell you so ye wold not beleue thē No quod he not if .xx. shuld what yf an hūdred wold quod I that semed good and credable if they were q he ten thousand they were not of credēce wyth me whan they shuld tell me that they sawe the thīg that my self knoweth by nature reasō vnpossyble For whan I know it could not be donne I knowe well that they lye all be they neuer so many that say they sawe it done well quod I syth I se well ye wold not in thys poynt beleue a hole towne ye haue put me to sylence that I dare
he wyll we quod I take for the thyrde that a mā was by myracle in a pater noster whyle cōueyd a myle of from oone place to a nother be hit so quod he Nowe they that shuld tell me quod he that they had seene these thre myracles were I bound to beleue thē whether ye were boūdē quod I or no we shall see ferther after But now whye shuld ye not of reasō trust them yf the men be credyble and ernestly reporte yt and peraduenture on there othes depose it hauīg no cause to fayne it nor lykely to lye and be forswornen for nought I wyll quod he not beleue them bycause that nature and reasone are twoo recordys more to be byleued thā all they that bere wytnesse agaynst them why quod I what doth reason nature tell you They twayne tell me quod he that those .iii. thyngys cā not be done whych those men sey they sawe done wote you quod I that reasō and nature tell you so ye mary quod he that I wote well they do I thynke youre self wyll agre that they tell me so Nay by saynt Mary syt quod I that wyll I not● for I thynke that neyther reson nor nature telleth you so but rather both twoo tell you clene the contrary that ys to wyte that they both bere witnesse that those thre thyngys and such other lyke be thingys that may be well ●nd easly done ye quod he mary thys ys a nother way Thē haue we walked wrong a whyle yf ye proue that Me thynketh quod I no thyng more easy to proue than that For I pray you tell me quod I do reasō and nature shewe you that there ys a god or not Fayth sheweth me that surely quod he but whyther nature and resō shew●● me or no that I doute syth grete reasoned men and phylosophers haue dowted therof And some of them playnly perswaded and in beleue that there was none at all and the hole people of the world in effecte fallen from knowlege or beleue of god in to Idolatry worshype of mammottys Nay quod I there ys lytle dowte I trowe●but that nature reason geueth vs good knowlege that there is a god for albe it the gentylys worshypped among them a thousand false goddis yet all that proueth that ther was and ys in all mennes heddys a secrete consent of nature that god there is or ellys they wold haue worshypped nōe at all Now as for the philosophers though a very fewe dowted and one or twayne thought ther was none yet as oone swalow maketh not somer so the foly of so fewe maketh no chaunge of the matter agaynst all the hole noumber of the olde philosophers whych as saynt Poule confessyth found owt by nature and reasō that ther was a god eyther maker or gouernour or both of all thys hole ēgyne of the world The maruelouse bewtye constant course whereof sheweth well that it neyther was made nor gouerned by chaunce But whan they had by these vysyble thyngys knowlege of hys inuysyble magestye thā dyd they as we do fell from the worshyp of hym to the worship of Idoles as now do chrysten mē not as herytyques lay to the charge of good people in doyng reuerence to sayntys he wrought it not to the vttermo●●s of hys power but with sych degrees of goodnes as his hye plesure lyked to lymyt For els were hys work of as infynyte ꝑfeccy●n as hym self And of such infynyte eg●ll ꝑ●eccyō was ther by god brought forth nothyng but only the two ꝑsons of the trynyte that is to wyt the sōne the holy goste of which two the sonne was furste by the father begotten after the holye goste by the father and the sonne after I say ī order of beginning but not in tyme producyd and brought forth And in thys hye generacyon and produccyon dyd the doers work bothe wyllyngly naturally after the vtterest parfeccyon of them self which they dyd only therin ● in none other thyng And therefore god myght breke vp the hole worlde yf he wolde make a beter by by and not onely chaūge in the n●turall cours of thys world sum thyngꝭ to the beter How be it god in workyng of myracles doth nothyng agaynst nature but some specyall benefyte aboue nature And he doth not agaynste you that doth a nother a good torne whych ye be not able to do And therfore syth god may do what he wyll beīg almyghty and in doynge of myracles he dothe for the beter neyther reson nor nature shewyth you that they whych saye they saw such myracles do tell you a thyng that can not be done syth ye haue no reason to proue that god either can not do yt or wyll not do yt For syth he cā do it and yt may be that he wyll do yt why shuld we mystruste good h●nest men that say they saw hym do yt The .ix. chapyter ¶ The author shewyth 〈◊〉 albe yt men m●y mystruste some of the p●●tyculer myracle● yet c●● there no resonable 〈◊〉 neyther deny nor 〈◊〉 but that ●any myracles hath there bene done and wrought FOrsothe quod he yet 〈◊〉 for myracles I were notte for all thys boūdē to beleue any for I spake n●uer yet with any man that cou●e tell me that euer he saw any ¶ It may q I fortune you to lyue so lōg that yt shall fynde no mā that was by at your crystenyng nor when ye were bishopped neyther ¶ Mary q he for ought● I wot I haue lyued so longe all redy ¶ why dout we not than q I whyther ye were euer crystenyd or not ¶ For euery man quod he presumyth beleueth that I ā crystenyd as a thyng so comenly done that we reken our selfe sure that no man leuyth yt ●ndone ¶ I● the comen presumpsyon quod I suffycyently serue you to set your mynd in surete than albeit myracles be nothīg comenly customably done nor that no presumpcyon can suffy●●ently serue for the profe of thys myracle or that yet hathe there euer from the begynnyng of the world in euery nacyon crysten ● he then and almost euery town at so● dry times so many myracles and m●●uayls bene wrought besyde the come● cour● of nature that I thynk thorow the world yt is as well beleuyd vnyuersally that miracles and maruayl● the● be as any thyng ys beleuyd that men loke vppon So that if comen presūpsiō serue you ye may as I sayd as w●l beleue that myracles be done 〈◊〉 that youre selfe was euer cry●●enyd For I dare well say that the●e ●r a thousand that bele●e ther hath bene myracles dōe against one that beleuyth that ye wer euer cry●●enyd or euer wyst whether ye were borne or n●t ¶ Nor the doctors of Cry●●ys chyrch dyd n●u●r mystrus● the wonders m●r●●yl● t●●t the ●●●nymes telle and wryte too ha●e beene done by theyr false goddis but assygneth them to haue ben done by the deuyll
thyn●e yt harde to be byleued that sayntys here vs. And I whyle we se that the thyngꝭ we pray for we obtayn meruayl mych more how men can dowt whyther the prayers be hard or not Whā s●yntys were in thys world at lyberte myght wal●yd the worlde about wene we that in heuē they stand tyed to a p●ste But the wonder is how they m●y se here in sondry placys at onys Yf 〈◊〉 two coulde no more but fele and neyther se nor here we wolde as well wondre Or yf we could not wondre therof by cause we co●lde not here therof yet shold we be farre from eny cōceyuyng in our mynde that it w●re 〈◊〉 for man to se or here ferther th●● he can fele For we that proue yt and d● se and here in dede can n●t yet se th● cause nor in no wyse cea●● to wondre by what reason and meane yt may be that I sh●lde se tw● chyrches or two townes eche of th●̄ two ● myle a sonder bothe twayne as farre fr●me as eche of theym ●com● other and measure so grete qu●●tytyes wyth so small a me●sur● as is the lytle apple of myn eye And of h●ryng m●ny mēnys voycis or eny ●●●nys w●●dꝭ ●o●ing at onys in to ma●● me●ny●●rys ●●andyng far a s●●der h●●h ly●● di●●yculte to cōceyue And wh●n all the reas●ns be made eyther of ●emys s●●t out frō●ur eyen to the thingꝭ that w● behold or the fygure of the thyngis sene ●●●typlyed in the ayre from the thyng● to our eye or of the ●yre ●●rykē wyth the breth of the speker and ●qually ●●lly●●● forth in ●undels to the eares of the herers whan all the reasons be herd yet shall we rather delyte to serche than be able to fynde eny thynge in these maters that were able to make vs ꝑceyue yt Now whan we may wyth our flesshly eye ere in thys gr●ce b●dy se and here thyngys far dystaūt from vs and from sondry placys far dystaunt a sonder meruayll we so mych that blyssed aungels and holy soules beyng mere spyrytual subst●uncys vncharged of all bourdyn●us flessh● and bonys may in doyng the same as ferre p●sse and excede vs our powers naturall as the lyuely soule selfe excedeth our deedly body nor can n●t byleue they here vs thoughe we fynde they helpe vs but yf we perceyued by what m●●nes they do yt as whyther they se and here vs comynge hyther to vs or our voyce comīg hens● to theym or whyther god here and se all shewe yt theym or whyther they b●h●ld yt in hym as one doth in a boke the thynge that he redeth or whyther god by some other way dooth vtter yt vnto theym as one dooth in spekyng except w● may knowe the meanes we wyll not ellys byleue the m●●er As wyse as were ●e that wold not byleue ●● can se bycawse he can not perceyue by what 〈◊〉 he maye se. ¶ Yet se I qu●d he no cause or nede why we shold pray 〈◊〉 theym syth god can as well wyll as gladly b●th here vs and helpe 〈◊〉 as eny saynt in heuē ¶ What nede y●● quod I to praye eny physycyon to helpe your feuer or pray and ●●ay eny s●●geon to h●le your s●re legge syth god can here you and helpe you bothe as wel as the best loueth you better and can do yt soner and maye aforthe 〈◊〉 pl●sher ●h●tter chepe gyue you more for your word thā they for your mony ¶ But this is his pleasur quod he that I shal be holpen by the meane of theym as hys instrumentys though in dede all thys he doth hym selfe ● syth he gyueth the nature to the thyngys that they do yt wyth ¶ So hath yt quod I pleased god in lyke wyse that we shal aske help of hys holy sayntꝭ And pray for helpe to theym Nor that is not a makyng of theym equal vnto god hym self though they do yt by hys wyl power or he at theyr ītercessiō Though god wyll as reason is be chyef haue no matche yet forbedeth he not one man to pray for helpe of a nother And thoughe the father hath gyuen all the Iudgemēt to hys sone yet doth he delyte to haue his holy sayntis pertyne●s of that honour and at the day of Iudgement to haue theym syt wyth hym Was Helyseus made egall to god bycause the wydowe prayed hym to reuyue her dede sone Were the apostles egall to Cryste bycause that they were prayd vnto for help after hys deth●● in hys lyfe also And many thyngy● dyd they at fol●ys prayer And some tyme they were prayed vnto and assayed yt also and yet coulde not do yt but the parties were fayne to go fro theym to theyr maister therfore And yet was he content that they were praye● vnto And for profe therof suffred theyin at mennys deuout inst●unce and prayer to do many myracles And somtym● were they prayed to be ītercess●●●s to theyr mayster As where they cam● to Cryst sayd Dimitte ●llam●●●●●●amat post nos dyspache thys woman for she cryeth vppō vs. And thynk you than that he beynge content gy●yng men occasyon to pray to theym 〈◊〉 they were wyth hym in erthe● he wyll be angry yf we do theym as mych worshyp whā they be wyth hym in heuyn Nay but I thynke on the tother syde syth his pleasure is to haue hys sayntꝭ had in honoure and prayed vnto that they may be for vs intecessours to hys hygh mayestye where vnto ere we presume to approche yt becometh vs and well behoueth vs to make frendys of suche as he hath in fauoure He wyll dysdayn onys to loke at vs yf we be so presumpt●●●se and malapert felowes that vppon boldnes of famyliaryte with hym selfe we dysdayn to make our intercessours hys especyall byloued frendis And where saynt Poule exhorteth vs eche to pray for other we be glad to thīk yt well done to pray euery pore man to pray for vs sholde we thynke yt euyll done to pray holy ●ayntꝭ in heuen to the same ¶ Why q he by that reasō I myght pray not only to saītꝭ but also to euery other dede mā ¶ So● may ye quod I wyth good reason y● ye se none other lykelyhed but that he ●yed a good mā And so fynde we as I remēbre in the d●alogys of sayu● Gregory y● one had helpe by prayou● made vnto an holy man late de●eaced whych was him self yet in purgatory So lyked yt our lorde to let the world knowe that he was in hys specyall fauoure though he were yet in payne of hys p●rg●cyō For our lo●de loued hym neuer the 〈◊〉 though he lefte not for hym the order of hys m●●●yfull● Iustyce And therfore let no mā take hys trouble or ●y●●ne●●● as a t●●●● o● goddys hatered but yf he f●l● hym sel●●●tudge and ●s impacyēt and euyll c●nce●● wyth yt For thā is ye ● tokē of wrath and venge●●●ce and 〈◊〉 to th●●●●●ere●
tother were theyr iudgement neuer so iuste For men be so percyall alway to theym selfe that oure harte euer thynketh the iudgement wronge that wryngeth vs to the worse For be it neuer so ryght all reken we wronge wherof we fele harme ¶ But yet of all thynge specyally the lawe sholde beste content vs for that yt is ferthest out of all cause of suspycyō For where as a iudge medleth wyth ● mater present persons whō he seeth knoweth wherby there may per●as fauour hatered hope or dred pytye cruelte mede request or some other affectiō inclyne hym to mysordre hym self in the mater the lawes alwaye be made for the punyshment of thyngꝭ only that are yet to come who shall fall in y● parell the makers can not tel Happely theyr foo● happely theyr frēdys as mēnys maners be mutable peraduenture theym selfe for whyche cause the ma●ers of the law made by the peple in cawses cryminal can be but indy●ferent And therfore I me●●●yle y● more syth y● f●ut ye fynde now is not in the iudges but in the lawes selfe Wherin ye thynke yt euyll prouyded that for the hatered of an heyghn●use ●●yme the person peraduenture innocēt shold fall in parell of a paynfull ●ethe by the more sleyght wytnesse thā wold be ●●kē for su●●ycyent in a farre sleyghte● mater Somwhat ye sayde in dede yf the ●●te●●d of the cryme were all y● 〈◊〉 But therin ye go far wyde For y● chyef cause why that in ●eyghnous● 〈…〉 as thef t● murder 〈◊〉 heresye the law taketh such for ●●tne●●● as yt wyll not accept in a 〈…〉 other cōtr●ct m●de betwene two partyes ys for that ellꝭ all such crymes shold passe sorth vnp●nisshed therby shold the world swarmfull of such myscheuous peple for lacke of profe and tryall in the mater bycause that those whych go about suche an heyghnous dede as cōmyng ones to knowledge wolde brynge theym to ● shamefull deth do not vse comenly to take a notary and honest wytnesse 〈◊〉 them to make an instrumēt therof as many men do and all men may do in a contracte or co●e●●unt but vse yt by s●elth as cou●●tly as they can By reason wherof re●son moneth and necessyte cōpelleth except ye wold all haue all go to nought to receyue suche recordys as they be wonte to make of theyr consayle whyche be as ye wo●e well none but suche as they be theym selfe And yet sometyme whyche maye s●me more straunge we be contente and r●son wold we so were wyth y● wytne●●● of the partyes theym selfe For yf th●e .x. theuys robbed foure men at onys in a wood though all y● good that they take a way were one comē purs of all foure and wolde all .x. whan they were taken well sty●ly say n●●e yet were I theyr iudge syth all wy●●●●e semeth not only to induce a credēce or ●●●dulyt● in the iuges mynde I wolde not let except some other cyrcūstance wyth●●ode yt to byleue the .iiii. complay●●ys in they re owne mater agaynst all ten defendauntys And all be yt that percase a iudge myght be in a contracts made bytwene two partyes ●●duced in hys owne mynde wythout any dowte to the con●●a●y to gyue c●●●●●e ī s●ch a poynt to y● t●ne ꝑte a●●īst y● totherfor the well kn●●en tr●nth 〈◊〉 of that t●ne ● in y● tother ꝑ●e the 〈…〉 redy to be pre●hed as yt semed yf th● world wold so chaunge that the tyme wolde ●er●e yt And wh●n he was in hys ex●mynacyō sore preced vppon to tell for what intent he made such a serm●● redy layed yt vppe so secretely destytute at last of all excuses that myght be●●●ny coloure of eny good cawse w●ll quod he I se● well I muste tell ●ll I am lothe to hurt eny body And thervppon he told how yt was made the mo●● p●●te by the man that was abiured of wh●m we specyally speke So that now s●ttynge all thys gere to gether thys m●●nys confe●●yon hys secrete frende and cōp●nyon in such maters hys olde accusacyons of lyke maters the heretyques confessyons that founded theyr heresyes in the same maters v●●on thautoryte of hys sermon and besydys all thys mo than .xx. wytnessꝭ pl●ynly prouynge the mater agaynste hym I wolde fayne wytte who had ryght yf he had wronge all though 〈◊〉 had ben vsed to hym more rygour a g●ete dele than therwas ¶ The .v. chapyter The author proueth that the spyrytu●ll iudges dyd the man meruylouse fau●ur alm●st more than laufull in that they admytted hym to such● an abiuracyō as they dyd and that they dyd not rather leue hym to the secular handys WHy q he what dyuyll rygoure could they more haue shewed for the fyrst tyme than make hy● ad●●re and bere a faggot ¶ Yes q●●● I som mā h●d l●uer bere twayn 〈◊〉 in hys 〈◊〉 than haue one ●ere hym 〈◊〉 on a fyre a● hys feete ¶ In ●●●th qu●d he they coud not haue done 〈◊〉 to hym at the fyrst tyme. ¶ No q I no● yf he wyllyngly retourned to the chyrch knoulegynge hys faute redy to abiure all heresyes and penetently submytted hymselfe to penaunce And ellys yf he proue hym selfe obstynate and impenytent the chyrch neyther is bounden nor oughte to receyue hym but vtterly may forsake hym and leue hym to the secular● handys But now was he so obstynate that he wolde not abiure of lōg tyme. And dyuerse dayes were hys iudgꝭ fayne of theyr fauour to geue hym wyth sufferaunce som his beste frendys whom he most trusted to resorte vnto hym And yet scantely could all thys make hym submytte hī selfe to make hys abiuracyon And fynally were they fayne for sauynge of hys lyfe to dyuyse a forme of abiuracyon wherof I neuer saw y● lyke nor in so playne a case neuer wold we●e I y● iudg suffer the lyke here after ¶ what man was that quod he ¶ Mary qu●d I hys abiuracyon was suche that he therī abiured forsware all her●sy●s knowlegyng hym selfe lawfully conuycte But where as they be wont to cōfesse in theyr owne abiuracyon that they haue holden such heresyes and be gyltye therof that wolde he do in no wyse but as clerely as hys f●wte was proued and by as many yet wolde he not to dye therfore confesse hym selfe fawtye but alway stode styll vppō yt in vertue of hys othe that all they belyed hym ¶ It myght happen quod he that he had forgoten that he so had pched ¶ That were quod I grete wounder For I am sure whan he had ●er●ed so in so many placys he had not done yt of a sodayne aduenture but of a delyberat purpose whych excepte he fell madde yt were no well pos●yble f●r hym in so grete a mater to forgete And bysydꝭ thys yt was also deposed th●● ī a place where he pched he was after the sermon resoned wythall forth●●● And by an honest ley mā had yt layed vnto hys charge that he had parelousely preched