Granting that some vulgar people and nouices in Faith may attaine beleefe concerning such verities of Christian Doctrine as are absolutely necessarie to Saluation by the Tradition of their Ancestors and Teachers without distinct and explicit resoluing their Faith into the Text of holy Scripture or the particular Bookes or Sections thereof But withall I deny that they can haue sauing Faith without resoluing the same into the doctrine of the Scriptures For example It is an Article of Faith necessarie to be beleeued by all Christians of riper yeres that Iesus Christ is the 〈◊〉 of the World and the same Article is reuealed and taught in many Texts of holy Scripture If a simple rurall person beleeue this Article taught him by his parents and other teachers he beleeueth the Doctrine of the Scripture and vertually grounds his Faith vpon the Scripture although hee know not the Bookes of the Scripture or the particular sentences contained in the same A man which drinketh water flowing from a fountaine or seeth day light although he haue no distinct knowledge of the fountaine or sight of the Sunne which is the cause of light yet hee receiueth water mediatly from the fountaine it selfe and his light principally from the Sunne so likewise rude and illiterate Christians reape the benefit and fruit of the Scriptures and vertually ground their Faith vpon them although they be not able distinctly to looke into them or to resolue their Faith into the seuerall parts and testimonies contained in them OBIECTION Vulgar andilliterate persons do not know or vnderstand the Scriptures neither can they be certaine by their owne knowledge that the same are truely translated in such points as the y are bound to beleeue therefore they cannot ground their Faith finally and lastly vpon the Scriptures ANSVVER 1. If this Obiection were good vulgar people could not ground their diuine Faith vpon Tradition because they haue not distinct knowledge of Tradition or of the qualitie or deriuation thereof Therefore I distinguish of Knowledge out of Bonauenture that the same is two fold to wit either confused and generall or distinct and speciall and a thing may be knowne two waies either in it selfe or in another If vulgar and illiterate people could know and vnderstand the Scriptures neither confusedly nor distinctly neither in themselues nor in any other thing then it were impossible that they should resolue their Faith into them but if they may know them by teaching of others and vnderstand the Doctrine of the Scriptures to be diuine by the light of heauenly veritie resplendent in the same and by the inward testimonie of the holy Spirit co-working with that Doctrine then it is possible for them to resolue their Faith into the Scripture because they which actually resolue their Faith into the Doctrine of the Scripture doe virtually and mediatly resolue the same into the verie Scripture euen as he that actually beleeueth the kings proclamation doth virtually beleeue the kings authoritie although he know the king or his authoritie confusedly and in generall only The Text of holy Scripture and the distinct sayings and sentences thereof are the principall and finall externall ground whereupon the whole bodie of the Church must ground their Faith But as there is a diuersitie of the members of the Church 1. Cor. 12.20 so likewise there is a difference betweene them in the manner of resoluing Faith for the stronger and firmer members are able to resolue their Faith distinctly into Scripture but the weaker members whose Faith as Bonauenture speaketh is diminuta seeble and imperfect in respect of the distinct apprehension of the obiect of Faith are guided by the stronger as children by a nurse And these little ones are taught the truth of heauenly Doctrine 1. By their parents or ecclesiasticall teachers and they know the Scriptures to be truely translated not by their owne skill but by crediting others which are able to iudge But being thus farre directed and persuaded by humane meanes then the light of Gods word it selfe by the power of Grace persuadeth them as a diuine cause to yeeld full assent to all such verities as are necessarie to be beleeued by them to saluation IESVIT And this is that which Protestants must meane if they haue any true meaning when they say that the common people knew Scriptures to be truely translated by the light of the Doctrine shining in true Translations to wit by the light of Doctrine receiued by Tradition of Ancestors and thereupon so firmely beleeue as they will acknowledge Scriptures to be truely translated so farre and no farther than they perceiue them consonant with the Faith deliuered vnto them so that their last and finall resolution for substantiall points is not into Scripture truly translated into their vulgar tongue but into Tradition by the light whereof they discerne that their Translations are true more or lesse according to the measure of knowledge they haue by Tradition ANSVVER The summe of the former obiection is Vnlearned people are not able without the helpe and instruction of others to resolue their Faith into the Scriptures Therefore the Scripture is not the finall and greatest stay and ground of Faith The Argument is denied for as in Arts and Sciences an vnskilfull person cannot resolue his knowledge into the first principles vntill he be taught the meaning of words and the sence of rules and precepts but when he is taught and vnderstandeth these then he maketh resolution into the very first principles themselues So likewise in beleeuing the Obiect of Faith must be taught the sence of the words and matter declared the grounds and reasons of credibilitie deliuered and then the beleeuer principally and immediately settles the resolution of his Faith not vpon these helps and instruments which are only dispofitiue and adiuuant causes but vpon the first principles themselues expressely or deriuatiuely contained in holy Scripture And whereas Dr. Ioh. Wh. is produced affirming in the behalfe of all Protestants that common people know Scriptures to be truely translated by the light of the Doctrine shining in true Translations First Dr. Wh. in the place assigned speaketh not in particular of common people but of the true Church in which are found many persons skilfull and learned Secondly he deliuereth other meanes besides the light of Doctrine whereby the Church may know that Translations are true to wit knowledge of Tongues rules of Art ministerie of the Word to which I adde analogie of Faith the testimonie of the 〈◊〉 Church and best learned in all ages All these are helpes and instruments of right Translations and when the Scriptures are translated they manifest their Author and sacred authoritie to such as in a right manner are conuersant in hearing or reading them And this is not only the Tenet of Protestants but besides the antient Fathers of moderate Papists themselues There is saieth one of them
whole Councell depended vpon him and his confirmation was then vnknowne and I verily thinke at this day not beleeued by your selues 5. Fiftly it must be considered If a Generall Councell may erre Who shall iudge it S. Augustine is at priora à posterioribus Nothing sure that is lesse than a Generall Councell Why but this yet layes all open to vncertainties and makes way for a Whirlewind of a priuate spirit to ruffle the Church No neither of these First all is not open to Vncertainties For Generall Councels lawfully called and ordered and lawfully proceeding are a great and an awfull Representation and cannot erre in matters of Faith if they keepe themselues to Gods Rule and attempt not to make a new of their owne and are with all submission to be obserued by euerie Christian where Scripture or euident Demonstration come not against it Nor doth it make way for the Whirlewind of a priuate spirit For priuate spirits are too giddie to rest vpon Scripture and too headie and shallow to be acquainted with demonstratiue Arguments And it were happie for the Church if shee might neuer be troubled with priuate spirits till they brought such Arguments I know this is hotely obiected against Hooker The Author calls him a wise Protestant yet turnes thus vpon him If a Councell must yeeld to a demonstratiue proofe Who shall iudge whether the Argument that is brought be a Demonstration or not For euerie man that will kicke against the Church will say the Scripture he vrges is euident and his Reason a Demonstration And what is this but to leaue all to the wildnesse of a priuate spirit Can any ingenuous man reade this passage in Hooker and dreame of a priuate spirit For to the Question Who shall iudge Hooker answers as if it had beene then made An Argument necessarie and demonstratiue is such saith hee as being proposed to any man and vnderstood the mind cannot chuse but inwardly assent vnto it So it is not enough to thinke or say it is demonstratiue The light then of a Demonstratiue Argument is the euidence which it selfe hath in it selfe to all that vnderstand it Well but because all vnderstand it not If a Quarrell be made who shall decide it No question but a Generall Councell not a priuate spirit first in the intent of the Author for Hooker in all that discourse makes the Sentence of the Councell binding and therefore that is made Iudge not a priuat spirit And then for the Iudge of the Argument it is as plaine For if it be euident to any man then to so many learned men as are in a Councell doubtlesse And if they cannot but assent it is hard to thinke them so impious that they will define against it And if that which is euident to any man is not euident to such a graue Assembly it is no Demonstration and the producers of it ought to rest and not to trouble the Church Nor is this Hookers alone nor is it newly thought on by vs It is a ground in Nature which Grace doth euer set right neuer vndermine And S. Augustine hath it twice in one Chapter That S. Cyprian and that Councell at Carthage would haue presently yeelded to any one that would demonstrate Truth Nay it is a Rule with him Consent of Nations Authoritie confirmed by Miracles and Antiquitie S. Peters Chaire and Succession from it Motiues to keepe him in the Catholike Church must not hold him against Demonstration of Truth which if it be so clearely monstrated that it cannot come into doubt it is to be preferred before all those things by which a man is held in the Catholike Church Therefore an euident Scripture or Demonstration of Truth must take place euerie where but where these cannot be had there must be submission to Authoritie And doth not Bellarmine himselfe graunt this For speaking of Councels he deliuers this Proposition That Inferiors may not iudge whether their Superiors and that in a Councell doe proceed lawfully or not But then hauing bethought himselfe that Inferiors at all times and in all causes are not so to be cast off hee addes this Exception Vnlesse it manifestly appeare that an intollerable Error be committed So then if such an Error be and be manifest Inferiors may doe their dutie and a Councell must yeeld vnlesse you will accuse Bellarmine too of leaning to a priuate spirit for neither doth hee expresse who shall iudge whether the Error be intollerable This will not downe with you but the Definition of a Generall Councell is and must be infallible Your fellowes tell vs and you can affirme no more That the voyce of the Church determining in Councell is not Humane but Diuine That is well Diuine then sure infallible Yea but the Proposition stickes in the throat of them that would vtter it It is not Diuine simply but in a manner Diuine Why but then sure not infallible because it may speake loudest in that manner in which it is not Diuine Nay more The Church forsooth is an infallible Foundation of Faith in a higher kind than the Scripture For the Scripture is but a Foundation in testimonie and matter to be beleeued but the Church as the efficient cause of Faith and in some sort the verie formall Is not this Blasphemie Doth not this knocke against all euidence of Truth and his owne grounds that sayes it Against all euidence of Truth For in all ages all men that once admitted the Scripture to be the Word of God as all Christians doe doe with the same breath graunt it most vndoubted and infallible But all men haue not so iudged of the Churches Definitions though they haue in greatest obedience submitted to them And against his owne grounds that sayes it For the Scripture is absolutely and euerie way Diuine the Churches Definition is but suo modo in a sort or manner Diuine But that which is but in a sort can neuer be a Foundation in a higher degree than that which is absolute and euerie way such Therefore neyther can the Definition of the Church be so infallible as the Scripture much lesse in altiori genere in a higher kind than the Scripture But because when all other things faile you flye to this That the Churches Definition in a Generall Councell is by Inspiration and so Diuine and infallible my hast shall not carrie me from a little Consideration of that too 6. Sixtly then If the Definition of a Generall Councell be infallible then the infallibilitie of it is either in the Conclusion and in the Meanes that prooue it or in the Conclusion not the Meanes or in the Meanes not the Conclusion But it is infallible in none of these Not in the first The Conclusion and the Meanes For there are diuers deliberations in Generall Councels where the Conclusion is Catholike but the Meanes by which they prooue it not firme therefore not infallible Not
in respect of your exact Iudgement and excelse Dignitie yet in regard of the Author it is a free will Offering intended to the honour of God and of your sacred Maiestie and to confirme your Liege people in right Faith and true loue and obedience of your most iust and gracious Gouernment As an Angell of God so is my Lord the King to discerne good and bad therefore the Lord thy God will be with thee 2. Sam. 14. 17. Your Maiesties Chapleine and Seruant FRAN. WH TO THE READER IT is now two yeeres since I was first called by my Lord Duke of Buckingham to conferre with an Honourable Person who as then began to make Reuolt from the true Faith and Religion professed in our Church By this Occasion J entred into a Disputation with one Mr Iohn Fisher a Jesuit the same person which was the Author of the two Bookes against which my younger Brother Dr Iohn White wrote his Way to the true Church and the Defence of the same After my first Conference with the aforesaid Jesuit ensued not long after a Second at which his most excellent Maiestie himselfe was present The Cause as J afterwards perceiued of his Presence was a gracious desire to recouer the foresaid Honorable Person out of the Fishers Net Then there followed a Third Conference betweene a most Learned and Reuerend Bishop and the said Jesuit intended to the same purpose Lastly his Royall Maiestie in his deepe Judgement hauing obserued by the former Conferences and especially by the second that our Aduersaries are cunning and subtile in eluding our Arguments brought against them but of no strength especially in particular Questions when they come to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and confirmation of their owne Tenet He was pleased to haue Nine Questions of Controuersie propounded to the Jesuit that hee might in writing manifest the Grounds and Arguments whereupon the Popish Faith in those Points was builded For his Maiestie in his owne Judgement and Experience knew most certainely That Romists are not able to confirme 〈◊〉 Faith either by sacred Scripture or by antient Tradition And therefore their manner is when they dispute with Protestants viua voce to auoid other Controuersies and to set vp their rest vpon the Questions of the Visibilitie and Authoritie of the Church Therefore the better to discouer their weakenesse and to plucke them out of their Fox-hole of Personall Succession and Vistbilitie the King imposed this Taske of writing vpon the Nine Questions Besides his Maieftie had experience of the mfaithfull dealing of Pontificians when they make Relation of such things as passe by word of mouth onely in priuate Disputations and hee well vnderstood 〈◊〉 the Cretising Jesuit had dealt with a 〈◊〉 Bishop and with my selfe For had wee beene Schoole-Boyes of thirteene yeeres old he could not haue made vs seeme more childish and vnskilfull than hee did dispersing Hundreds of Papers to his owne prayse and our disgrace Wherefore it was necessarie that some publique Worke containing the Grounds and Arguments of his part and the Answere and Replie on ours might be extant wherein neither his nor our Yea and Nay should take place sed res cum re causa cum causa c. the weight of matter on each part might testifie for it selfe Now who could command this to be done but the King himselfe who therefore made the former proposition of Nine Questions to the Jesuit that the World might see the vttermost of his strength and againe they might haue meanes to iudge rightly of our Cause and of our proceedings in handling the same Mine owne purpose at the first was to haue published in Print a Narration of my two Disputations and as farre as my Memorie would serue me I had to that end collected in writing the summe of those Conferences But obseruing afterwards by another Disputation which was printed that our Aduersaries will perpetually tumultuate and accuse of falsitie all things which passe not vnder their owne hands knowing also that my selfe could not exactly remember all passages of the Jesuits Disputation and mine there being not a word written at the time when wee disputed J deferred the printing thereof vntill this greater Worke was finished The Aduersarie in this Answere which his Friend deliuered the King hath disputed Eight of the Questions propounded by his Maiestie and he declineth the Ninth for Reasons well knowne to the World and in stead of a Disputation he passeth ouer that Article of deposing Kings with a Rethoricall Declamation But before the Nine Questions hee placeth a large Disputation prouided no doubt aforehand and expecting onely a prosperous Wind of Occasion to send it abroad touching the Rule of Faith concerning Scripture and Tradition the Notes of the Church c. Then to counterpoise the Kings Nine Articles he chargeth our Church with Nine remarkable Errors as he accounteth them Jn the former part of his Tractate is contained the summe and substance of the first Conference betweene him and me before the Lord Keeper and the Lord Duke of Buckingham Jn the Questions of Jmages Transubstantiation Communion in both kinds is contained also the summe of the second Conference but there are many Additions in each Question and hee handleth matters more exactly in his written Worke than hee did in his priuate Disputations J haue examined his whole Treatise and answered euery passage thereof printing his Worke verbatim with mine owne The World must take notice that I am a constant Preacher in a Pastorall Charge and therefore J could not ose such expedition as other men may which imploy their whole time strength in writing Besides my Worke being finished before Michaelmas last bath bin long in Printing by reason of the number of Quotations in the Margen These Citations are for this cause word for word out of the Authors placed in my Booke that the Worke may be more vsefull especially to such persons as want the benefit of Libraries and much Reading themselues J haue with as much diligence as morally a Scholler can vse collected my Testimonies out of the very Authors themselues The Reader shall not need to feare or distrust vnlesse where the Printer hath made Escapes which cannot alwayes be auoided in a Worke of this nature And I must entreat the Reader where he obserueth any Error in the Print to correct the same with his Pen. Neither must the vnlearneder sort be offended if they light vpon some hard passages because the matter it selfe is many times very abstruse and disputing with Aduersaries which are Sophisters I am compelled to vse Schollasticke tearmes and to turne their owne Weapons vpon themselues But so farre as I am able I haue endeuored to be perspicuous Of my Aduersaries I request nothing at all for it is in vaine But if they reply it shall be for their greater honour to set downe my Text as I haue done theirs And they shall but beat the ayre vnlesse they confirme the maine Branches of their
haue vs reade touching his owne sayings and workes this hee commanded the Euangelists as it were his owne hands to write And in another place Although Christ spake and wrought some things which are not written yet those things which seemed vnto him sufficient to the saluation of beleeuers were selected to be written Saint Cyrill also affirmeth that all things which Christ did are not written but so much as holy writers iudged sufficient both for good manners and godly faith to the end that we shining in right faith good workes and vertue may attaine the heauenly Kingdome By the iudgement of these Fathers the holy Euangelists committed to writing so much of our Sauiours Doctrine and deeds as is sufficient for people to know that they may bee illustrious in faith and vertue and by the light whereof they may come to saluation In these things therefore the Euangelists did not cursorily touch matters but largely and fully deliuer them Secondly if the Scriptures containe all things sufficient to saluation yea more than is sufficient then the Apostles in their Scriptures did not cursorily or by the way onely touch matters But the first is affirmed both by the Fathers and confessed by some learned Papists Vincent 〈◊〉 The Canon of the Scripture is perfit and in it selfe sufficient for all matters yea more than sufficient Antonius Perez Pentateuch fidei vol. 4. c. 21. If the Scripture be compared and applied with things which faith teacheth as necessarie to saluation the same is apparently redundant and superfluous according to the nature of a rule because there be many things yea most things in the same the knowledge whereof is vnnecessarie But if the Scripture containe many 〈◊〉 superfluous and more than is needfull it is improbable 〈◊〉 thinke that it is imperfect in Principals or deliuereth them 〈◊〉 onely or by the way Thirdly the variety and multitude of points and doctrines of faith and good manners and the often repeating and declaring of them in the holy Scriptures prooueth that the Apostles 〈◊〉 fully and perfectly deliuer in their writings the whole 〈◊〉 of Christian faith and not onely cursorily touch them For all supernaturall veritie concerning the sacred Deitie Trinitie diuine Attributes and Operations Creation of the world c. is taught in holy Scripture In like manner the whole doctrine of faith concerning the Incarnation Person and Office of Christ is reuealed vnto vs by holy Scripture And for this cause Saint Cyrill calleth the Scriptures Solos fontes veritatis The sole fountaines of veritie All things concerning Iustification Charitie and good workes being meerely supernaturall are taught in Scripture The doctrine of the Law Gospell Sacraments resurrection of the dead finall iudgement c. is intirely and fully reuealed in the holy Scriptures and the Church according to Saint Augustine hath onely two brests wherewith shee feedeth her children to wit the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament And that he alwayes vnderstandeth by the Old and New Testament the Scriptures of both appeareth by his words vpon Psal. 22. Aperi legamus c. Let vs open our Fathers last Testament and reade it And 〈◊〉 the great 〈◊〉 Apostolice 〈◊〉 nec non antiquorum Prophetarum 〈◊〉 plane 〈◊〉 de sensu Numinis The Euangelicall and Apostolicall bookes together with the Oracles of the antient Prophets doe plainely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 euidently instruct vs concerning the minde of God And from all the former it is manifest that the Apostles writings are not patches and shreds onely of Apostolicall Doctrine as our 〈◊〉 against all antiquitie presumeth to affirme but the very substance and marrow of their whole Preaching containing the summe of the Gospell by faith and obedience whereof wee receiue euerlasting life And thus much touching the Antecedent of the Iesuits Argument The sequel of the former Argument which is Because without precedent instruction by vnwritten Tradition wee cannot be firmely assured that wee haue the right sence of the Scripture therefore the last and finall resolution is made vnto vnwritten Tradition and not into Scripture is inconsequent and the Antecedent proueth not the Consequent for precedent Tradition may bee necessarie to deliuer vnto vs the text of holy Scripture and Precpts how to expound and vse the same and by Tradition wee may receiue a Commentarie of some texts of holy Scripture yet euen as a Schollar although hee receiue the bookes of Euclid and Aristotle from a Master and precepts in what sort hee shall proceed in his studie and withall a Commentary declaring the meaning of these Authours yet hee doth not finally being made learned himselfe resolue his knowledge into the former but into the principles of these Arts themselues so likewise a nouice in faith receiueth the holy Scripture by Ministerie and Tradition of the Church and Precepts and Commentaries whereby hee is first inabled and afterwards holpen in the right exposition thereof yet after this Introduction by further studie and diligence hee collecteth Arguments from the Scripture it selfe and being instructed in the sence thereof he doth not finally resolue his beleefe into the Commentarie and Introduction but into the text or Doctrine of holy Scripture it selfe IESVIT Hence I may further inferre that Protestants haue not throughly pondered the place of the Apostle vnto Timothie which they 〈◊〉 vehemently vrge to prooue the sufficiencie of sole Scripture for euery man as though he had said absolutely that the Scriptures are able to instruct or make men wise vnto Saluation which he saith not but speaking particularly vnto Timothie saith They are able to instruct or make thee wise vnto saluation 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hast been aforehand instructed by word of mouth and doost thereupon firmely beleeue all substantiall Doctrines and knowest all the necessarie practise of Christian Discipline ANSWER The Aduersarie in this passage vseth certaine Arguments to prooue that Protestants misunderstand the Text of S. Paul 2. Timoth. 3.15 16. when they vrge the same to maintaine the sufficiencie of sole Scripture to be a ground for all Christians finally to rest their faith vpon His first Argument is The Apostle saith not absolutely that the Scriptures are able to make all men wise vnto Saluation but particularly to Timothie a man instructed aforehand and formerly 〈◊〉 all substantiall grounds of Doctrine and Discipline they are able 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to make thee being such a one and so prepared wise c. To this I answere 1. That although sentences of holy Scripture are sometimes restrained to the personall or particular subiect of which they are first spoken yet this is not generall and when the same happeneth it must be prooued by better Arguments than by the bare Emphasis of a word For God said to Ioshua a man qualified aboue the ordinarie ranke I will not leaue thee nor forsake thee Ioshua 1. 5. yet the promise implied in this Text is generall and common to all iust
kernell of an Apple a great tree may bee made and nourished by the force and vigour proceeding from the same did not we see by daily experience the same to be true that ashes may be made of glasse that stones in the stomacke of a Doue yron in the belly of an Ostridge be turned into flesh that of a rotten barke of a tree falling into the water should be bred and produced a perfect bird to me seemes more incredible than that God should make the accidents of Bread separated from their substance to nourish mans body for the dead barke of a tree may seeme to haue no more efficacie of it selfe to produce a liuing creature specially so perfect a bird as Barnacles than haue the accidents of Bread to feede and breede the flesh of a liuing man Yea many Philosophers teach and in my iudgement conuince that in substantiall generations where no cause coequall in perfection to the effect produced is present God by his Omnipotencie doth supplie deficiencie of naturall causes Why then should any man so much mislike our Doctrine that in this Mysterie where the substance of Bread wants God by the secret operation of his power supplies the defect thereof seeing by the opinion of many learned Philosophers his prouidence by the like secret speciall working doth ordinarily daily and hourely supply the manifold defects of substantiall secondarie Agents Neither is the manner how God can doe this difsicile to explicate For he may inable the quantitie of Bread to receiue and sustaine the working of mans nutritiue power and when in that quantitie there is the last accidentall disposition to the forme of flesh he can secretly produce againe Materiam primam that was of the Bread and combine the same with the prepared quantitie and the substantiall forme of Flesh What reason is there why God may not doe this yea doe it sooner than we speake it Wherefore the seeming absurdities of this mysterie being as J haue shewed meerely imaginarie and not like those against the Trinitie and the Incarnation wherein not so much imagination as reason findes difficultie it is the part not onely of sincere Christian faith but also of a cleere excellent wit to conceiue them and not to permit wandring vnruly fancie destitute of reason to controll our beleefe about the literall sence of Christs words so many waies by the grauest testimonies of Antiquitie recommended vnto vs. ANSVVER That Accidents may subsist and haue their naturall force and operation without a subiect of support or inhaerencie implies a contradiction for it is of the being and definition of Accidents to be in another or to be in their subiect And none of the Examples taken from a Kernell Ashes Iron in the belly of an Ostridge the barke of a tree c. are ad idem for these are not Accidents without a substance but reall bodies hauing by nature a proportion and propension to produce their owne effects either as seminall causes or true materials conuerted by heate fire and art or things putrescent formed and animated by the heate of the Sunne and other secret and naturall causes That an Akorne should become an Oake is wonderfull as the workes of God are yet it is as naturall as that a Lyon begets a Lyon nay as that the Sunne or fire shineth That of ashes is made glasse what is it but that a transparent bodie is made of a bodie not transparent so Yee of Snow c. And concerning Stones Iron c. I doe not thinke that these feed or nourish Doues Hawkes Struthiocameles c. but onely coole or cleanse them and this I count not impossible in nature that vegetatiue heate should in short time dissolue stones The Barnacles are generatio ex putri as are Mice Frogs and Serpents but what is this to accidents nourishing without matter and substance Now for all the former wee know the truth and certaintie by naturall reason and by experience of our sences but there is no naturall or supernaturall rule or Law no manifest demonstration either to sence or reason no reuelation of Faith that the abstracted formes of bread and wine subsist without a subiect and haue power to nourish and may bee tasted and felt and also putrifie but Romists presumptuously forme these Chimera's and Idols in the forge of their owne deceiued brest and they deserue to bee fed onely with accidents like Birds that pecked at the painted grapes which thinke to feed any intelligent Reader with such improper and extrauagant accidents IESVITS 3. Consideration Thirdly to make Christians incline to 〈◊〉 this Mysterie so difficile to carnall imagination this Consideration may be very potent to wit that in beleeuing the same on the one side there may be great merit and excellent faith if it be a truth and on the other side though which is impossible it should be false yet in beleeuing it we shall not fall into any damnable errour For although we suppose this an vnpossible case yet what can be laid to our charge which wee may not defend and iustifie by all the rules of equitie and reason if we be accused that we tooke Bread to be the body of Christ adoring the same as God so committing Idolatry we may defend that both for soule and body we are innocent herein For seeing the body is not made guiltie but by a guiltie mind euen our body may pleade not guilty seeing our mind our thoughts or deuotion were fully and totally referred vnto Christ whom we truely apprehend by faith as vailed with the Accidents of Bread and so may repell the reproach of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Bread Worshippers with saying Quae nouit mens est pani nil vouimus illa Neither did we beleeue that the Bread was changed into Christs body vpon sleight reasons or mooued by the fancies of our owne head but contrary to our fancies out of Reuerence to the expresse words of Christ This is my body A sense declared by most antient Fathers defined by many generall Councells deliuered by full consent of our Ancestors so practised in the Church for many ages without any knowne beginning finally confirmed with the most credible and constant report of innumerable most euident miracles Can a Christian beleeue any points of Religion vpon surer grounds And if God at the day of iudgement will condemne none but such as liuing in this world wronged him in his honour Why should Catholikes feare any hard sentence in respect of their prompt Credulitie of Transubstantiation that is of Gods Word taken in the plaine proper sense Js it an 〈◊〉 to his veritie that they denie their senses correct their imaginations reforme their discourses abnegate their iudgements rather than not to beleeue what to them seemeth his Word Js it an iniury to his power to be persuaded he can doe things incomprehensible without number put the same body in innumerable places at once Make a body occupy no place and yet remaine a quantitatiue substance
onely by making them susceptible of a free and liberall reward and by placing them in the state and order of causes impetrant or dispositiue conditions S. Paul saith Rom. 8.18 I thinke that the Passions of this time are not condigne to the glorie to come that shall be reuealed in vs. First the passions here expressed were Martyredomes sanctified by grace Phil. 1.29 and spirituall sacrifices of a sweete smelling sauour 2. Tim. 4. 6. most pretious in Gods sight Psalm 116.15 Secondly Condignitie or Worthinesse equall in desert or value to the reward of glorie is denyed vnto them but where there is inequalitie betweene the worke and the reward and where the reward is of Grace and the worke of debt there is found no proportion of Condignitie Origen saith I can hardly persuade my selfe that there can be any good worke deseruing as a debt the reward of God S. Augustine Thou shall not receiue eternall life for thy Merit but only for Grace Andreas Vega saith That many Schoole-men to wit Gregorie Arimine Durand Marsilius Waldensis Burgensis Eckius c. reiect the Romish doctrine of merit of Condignitie Dionisius Cistertiensis doth the like Brulifer saith It is a verie deuout opinion established by many authorities that no man in this life how pure and perfect soeuer can merit coelestial glorie by 〈◊〉 but that by 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 And 〈◊〉 the Iesuit 〈◊〉 That the Roman Church hath not hitherto determined expressely the question of 〈◊〉 of condignitie and the same author with others 〈◊〉 That Merit of congruitie is not truly properly simply Merit but 〈◊〉 quid nomine tenus comparatiuely and in appellation only And they deliuer a good reason of this assertion for if for a small labour and seruice or if for a seruice and obedience due of right by other titles a liberall and immense gift shall be bestowed there is no Merit in the receiuer but the reward is meerely of 〈◊〉 in the bestower So likewise when God Almightie bestoweth vpon his children an incomparable weight of glorie for a small and imperfect seruice and for that which is due vnto himselfe in right by many other titles this reward is not a wages of debt neither is God obliged in iustice to bestow it but it is a reward of Grace and bountie and man is indebted to God for promising and bestowing the same Now from hence it is apparent that the doctrine of Merit taken properly is not Catholicke or infallible and therefore if Popes pardons depend vpon the same a worme-eaten post is made the pillar and supporter of this moath-eaten rag of supererogation wherwith the Romists would gayly cloath their children IESVIT The first grace is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 because God out of his owne 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and his actions 〈◊〉 a without which Ordination no 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or correspondencie with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ANSWER By Diuine preordination vertuous actions haue reference not of desert but of disposition and instrumentall efficiencie or manuduction to beatitude or the last supernaturall 〈◊〉 and according to Saint Bernard they are Via regni non causa regnandi The way to the heauenly Kingdome but not the meritorious cause of raigning IESVIT The second is the Grace of Redemption by Christ Iesus without whom wee and our workes are defiled wee being by nature the children of wrath and should bee so still had not hee by his Passion and Death appeased God 〈◊〉 vs the inestimable treasure of his merits so that In illo benedixit nos Deus omni benedictione spirituali in caelestibus in quo habemus redemptionem per sanguinem eius secundum diuitias gratiae suae quae superabundauit in nobis ANSVVER The grace of Redemption appeaseth God and purchased for vs the fruit and inestimable benefit of Christs Merits both for remission of our sinnes and for our Sanctification But that Christs Merits make mans actions meritorious and that his satisfaction inableth man to satisfie Gods Iustice is all one as if one would inferre saying Christ Iesus hath redeemed vs by his Passion and he communicates to vs the grace of Redemption Ergo Christ Iesus hath made vs Redeemers IESVIT The third is grace of Adoption in Baptisme whereby soules are supernaturally beautified by participation of the diuine nature whence a triple dignity redounds vnto Works one by the grace of Adoption from God the Father who in respect of this Adoption regards good works as the works of his children Another is from God the holy Ghost dwelling in vs by whom Good workes are honoured as by the principall Author of them so that he rather than we doth the works who therefore is said to pray for vs with vnspeakable groanes The last dignitie is from God the Son Christ Iefus whose members we are made by Grace so that the works we doe be reputed not so much ours as his as the worke of the particular members is attributed principally vnto the head ANSWER By the grace of Regeneration and Adoption the diuine Image is imprinted in the soule 2. Pet. 1. 4. Ephes. 4.24 and a dignitie of goodnesse redounds to vertuous actions from the three persons of the Trinity But hence it followeth not Ergo Good workes merit in condignitie for although Christ Iesus and the holy Ghost worke in righteous People and the vertuous deedes of these Persons are in some sort reputed the works of Christ yet because the diuine Persons worke in them according to a certaine degree and measure of grace and not according to the fullnesse of Power and the vertuous deeds of men are attributed to Christ not as the cause Elicitiue or as immediately producing them it is inconsequent to say Good workes are produced originally by the holy Ghost and they are reputed Christs works in regard of Influence Approbation and Acceptation Ergo they haue the totall Perfection to wit of meriting and satisfying which Christs owne Personall workes had The foot of man is vnited to the head and the head maketh influence into it neuerthelesse the whole perfection of the head is not in the foot and the foot doth not vnderstand because the head vnderstandeth nor seeth heareth or smelleth although these senses are 〈◊〉 in the head So likewise euery iust person is vnited to Christ and is spiritually sanctified by the Grace of the holy Ghost but this motion and influence is finite in it selfe and limited to the estate of our weakenesse 〈◊〉 distributed according to the necessitie of the Receiuer and the wisedome and good pleasure of the moouer and therefore it imparteth not the whole vertue of the moouer but so much onely as is necessarie and conuenient for the Subiect to receiue but it is not necessary for men to receiue power of meriting properly and it is most honourable for God to bestow life eternall
freely IESVIT The fourth is Grace praeuenient whereby God stirreth vp in vs thoughts and affections to good and pious workes and grace adiuuant to helpe vs in the performance of these desires making our free will produce works that are supernaturall in their very substance and aboue the capacitie of man ANSWER The free will of man by the power of praeuenient adiuuant and subsequent Grace produceth works which are supernaturall in their kind but yet this free will being Principium vulneratum an originall roote or beginning of Action which was wounded with sinne and is in this life cured onely in part it alwayes retayneth some remainders of inborne infirmitie and consequently the good Actions produced by it attaine not the fullnesse of Perfection but there is found in them some haereditary staine or limping Rom. 7. 18 19 20.23 Gal. 5. 17. Heb. 12. 1. Hence it followeth that iust men cannot challenge a reward by merit or debt because they neuer yeeld God his full and perfect due for it is his due to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without any sinne adherent but righteous Persons 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iam. 3.2 Therefore they can challenge nothing of Debt or as 〈◊〉 of God but onely 〈◊〉 with humilitie vpon his bounty and 〈◊〉 IESVIT The fift is the Grace of mercifull indulgence in not 〈◊〉 with vs the rigor of his 〈◊〉 For God might wholy require the good worke we 〈◊〉 his owne by many 〈◊〉 as by the 〈◊〉 of Iustice being works of his 〈◊〉 by title of Religion being workes of his Creatures by title of gratitude as being workes of persons infinitely obliged vnto him By which Tytles if God did exact vpon workes with vttermost rigor no goodnesse would be left in them to be offered for the meriting of heauen But his infinite benignitie remitting this rigor moued thereunto through the merits of Christ is content that we make vse of our good workes for the gaining of glorie and doth not exact them wholy and totally as otherwise due ANSWER The Lord is content that we make vse of our good workes for the attaining and increase of glorie Mat. 25.16.2 Cor. 9. 6. Gal. 6.8 And he requireth them also for many other good ends Ioh. 15.8 2. Pet. 1.10 But they may be vsed and referred to life eternall as dispositions and causes impetrant and not as causes properly or condignely meritorious Also it is remarkeable how the Iesuit in this section hath set fire on his owne house for if we we owe good works vnto God by the titles of Iustice Religion and Gratitude What peeping hole I pray you is left for aspiring Merit to creepe in at The true application whereof is That if God exact according to his due then vpon the Aduersaries owne ground there is no Merit But if he doe not in rigor exact then this indulgence and not exacting for Christs sake taketh away all plea of Merit from vs and casteth the Merit vpon Christ alone IESVIT The sixt is the grace of liberall promise by which he obligeth 〈◊〉 himselfe to reward the good Workes of his children according to the deserv of their goodnesse Did not God binde himselfe by his word in this manner no worke of Saints though neuer so perfect and excellent were able to bind 〈◊〉 to reward it as all 〈◊〉 teach though some disputation be whether Gods liber all 〈◊〉 supposed the goodnesse of the 〈◊〉 concurre partially with his promise to oblige him which is a Disputation of no great moment ANSVVER First the promise of God whereby he obligeth himselfe to 〈◊〉 a benefit to his People vpon their obedience inferreth not desert or merit on their part as appeareth in repentance whereunto the Lord promiseth mercie remission of sinnes and saluation and obligeth himselfe by oath Ezech. 18.31 32. ca. 33.11 and yet the benefit conferred is not of Merit but of Grace God Almighty promised to bestow the land of Canaan vpon the Israelites and he bound himselfe thereto by oath Exod. 13. 5. Neuerthelesse he gaue this good land to them not for their owne merits but of his free bountie Deut. 7. v. 7 8 chap. 9. 5. Secondly it is false that God hath obliged himself by promise to reward the good Works of his children according to the desert of their goodnesse for he rewardeth them according to his owne bountie but not according to their own defert yea he rewardeth aboue desert and in part contrary to desert Ps. 103.10 Thirdly the disputation of Schoolemen whether Gods liberall promise supposed the goodnesse of the worke concurre partially with the diuine promise to oblige God is of so great moment that Vasques the Iesuit saith They which hold the former without teaching the latter destroy Merit teaching the same in words and really denying it IESVIT Finally That Merit attaine reward is required the grace of perseuerance without which no man is crowned And though Good workes strengthened with so many supernatur all Excellencies bee good stayes of confidence in themselues considered yet because we are not sure of our perseuerance no nor altogether certaine that we haue good Workes adorned with the former perfections the Catholicke Saints of God vse not to confide in their Merits past specially being guiltie of diuers daily negligences but flie to Gods mercies as the Church teacheth vs in the Liturgie of the Masse daily praying In sanctorum nos consortium non aestimator meriti sed veniae quaesumus largitor admitte ANSWER Without perseuerance no man can attaine the Crowne of Glorie Apoc. 2.10 and yet as perseuerance it selfe is the free gift of God Ierem. 32.40 1. Cor. 1.8 Phil. 1. 6. so likewise the Crowne of Glorie following perseuerance is of Grace and not of Merit Rom. 6.23 Secondly Good workes are stayes and supporters of confidence Heb. 3.6 1. Ioh. 3.21 Psal. 119. 166. And iust men may know that they haue Faith and Good workes Esa. 38.3 Ioh. 29.14 Psal. 119.22 67 100 110 112 157 166. Also they are regenerate of immortall seed 1. Pet. 1. 23. And hee that is begotten of God ouercommeth the world and keepeth himselfe and that wicked One toucheth him not 1. Ioh. 5. v. 4. 18. And so by Grace they are inabled to perseuere to the end Phil. 4.13 Ioh. 4.14 6.37 2. Thes. 3.3 Thirdly Although all good Christians are studious of Good workes 1. Ioh. 3.7 Mat. 7.17 Iohn 15.5 yet no true Catholicke Christian glorieth or confideth in his owne Merits or expecteth saluation for his owne deserts And the reason hereof is not the vncertaintie of his owne Sanctification but a true vnderstanding of his owne 〈◊〉 to Merit condignely at Gods hand and of his owne vnworthinesse euen supposing the state of Grace c. to receiue the Crowne of Glorie by any other purchase than by the free donation and Merit of Christ Luk. 17.10 Rom. 6.23 Psal. 143.2 IESVIT Did Protestants know that we
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 those things which are behind or wanting 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the afflictions 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Christ in my flesh 〈◊〉 his body which is the Church The first part of these words prooueth that S. Paul suffered for the Collossians But because he might suffer for the confirmation of their faith or as an example of patience or by way of persecution because he preached the Gospell to them and other Churches it cannot be concluded that hee suffered to make satisfaction for their sinnes Secondly The next words conclude not Satisfaction for Christs Afflictions and Passions are of two kinds Some Personall and in his owne flesh Some By Sympathie and compassion in his members The first are satisfactorie the second are exemplarie purgatiue probatiue or for the edifying of the Church S. Paul supplyed not or perfected not the first Esa. 63.3 for then Christs sufferings vpon the Crosse were imperfect but both S. Paul and all other iust persons which patiently beare affliction and indure the Crosse supply and accomplish that which is yet wanting in Christ as he is considered in a mysticall vnion to his Church Christ saith to Saul Act. 9.4 Saul Saul Why persecutest thou me and v. 5. I am Iesus whom thou persecutest S. Augustine and S. Gregorie say That Christ and the Church are one mysticall Body Therefore when the members suffer the head suffers and the afflictions of the members are the afflictions of Christ 2. Cor. 1. 5. 1. Cor. 12. 12. It is also remarkeable that not onely the Fathers but the maior part of Popish Doctors expound this Scripture in such sort that it serueth not at all to maintaine Papall Indulgences And Estius a moderne Pontifician saith That whereas 〈◊〉 of his part straine the Text of S. Paul to prooue Satisfactions and Indulgences himselfe is of mind that the said Doctrine cannot effectually be prooued by this place The other place 2. Cor. 12. 15. I wil verie gladly spend and be spent for you or as the Rhemists translate I most gladly will bestow and will my selfe moreouer be bestowed for your soules affoordeth no argument for Satisfactions and Pardons Caietan Estius Iustinian and other Popish expositors themselues deliuer the sence of this Text in manner following S. Paul manifesteth his paternall affection to the Corinthians saying I am readie not only as a Father to bestow all that I haue vpon you so farre am I from seeking any thing of yours but also to spend my life for you Now by what Art or Engine can Papists extort Pardons or Satisfactions out of this Text doth it follow that if Saint Paul be readie to spend himselfe life and state for the good of his flocke therefore there is a rich stocke and treasure of superabundant Passions and Satisfactions laid vp by S. Paul to bee spent by the Corinthians at their need Surely our Aduersarie intended rather to deride the world than to giue men satisfaction when he presented vs with such inconsequent stuffe But the Iesuit secondeth his former inference by a testimonie of Origen I answer Origen in the place obiected speaketh of purging sinne it selfe by the passions of Martyres and not of the temporall mulct or paine of sinne onely But the bloud of Martyres purgeth not sinne it selfe by way of condigne Satisfaction our Aduersaries being witnesses but at the vttermost by way of Deprecation now Deprecation and Satisfaction properly taken are of diuers natures The place of S. Augustine is strained against his meaning for this Father speaketh of all the members of Christ which suffer for their Masters cause But in our Aduersaries Tenet all that suffer for Christ haue not superabundant Satisfactions but onely some And this Father is so farre from maintaining workes of Supererogation as that he saith Pro modulo nostro exoluimus quod debemus pro posse virium nostrarum quasi canonem passionum inferimus c. According to our small measure we pay that which we are obliged vnto and according to our power we cast in as it were the stint of our passions but they which pay a stint and render that whereunto of right they are obliged haue not superaboundant Passions or workes of Supererogation IESVIT This was the practise of the Primitiue Church which at the petition of constant confessours in prison did release the penalties that sinners were inioined to performe to satisfie non onely the discipline of the Church but also the wrath of God after the remission of sinne still continuing vnto the infliction of temporall paine as appeareth by the testimonie of S. Cyprian And that this relaxation of temporall paine was done by applying the abundant satisfaction of holy Confessours and designed Martyres vnto the poenitents that receiued indulgence at their intercessions appeares by Tertullian For hee falling from the Church into the errours of Montanus whereof one was That for Christians sinning after Baptisme there was no remission of sinne refutes the Catholique custome of remitting penalties vnto sinners for the merits of Martyres speaking thus Let it suffice the Martirs that they haue cancelled and satisfied their owne sinnes Jt is ingratitude or pride for one prodigally to cast abroad vpon others that which as a great benefit was bestowed vpon him And speaking vnto the Martir saith Jf thou bee a sinner how can the oyle of thy lampe suffice both for thee and mee By which haereticall impugnation appeares that the Catholicke Doctrine then was that men might satisfie one for another and that the abundant satisfactions of some that suffered exceedingly as Martirs were applied for the Redemption of some others more remisse and negligent not from eternall but onely temporall punishment ANSWER You are an vnfaithfull Relatour of the practise of the Primitiue Church which was as followeth After foule and enormous knowne offences committed by Christians and especially after denying the Faith or Sacrificing to Idols offendours were put to a grieuous and long Penance It fell out sometimes that there was iust reason why the rigour of Penance should be mittigated either in respect of the kinde of duresse imposed or in regard of the length and continuance Which fauour the Bishops and Pastours of each Church not the Romane onely had authoritie by the Canons to grant as they saw iust cause This mitigation and relaxation of Penance was called by the name of Pardon and Indulgence and in the same there was no buying or selling no reference to Purgatorie Secondly Whereas you pretend that Popes Pardons were in vse in the Primitiue Church many of your owne part controll your impudencie to wit Durand Antonine Maior Roffensis Angelus de Clauasio Cassander And 〈◊〉 denyes That the Church hath any Treasurie 〈◊〉 of the merits of Christ and of the Saints The 〈◊〉 is maintained by Angelus de Clauasio
no dispencer of Grace 357 360. Halfe Christs Kingdome 361 362 Visibilitie of the Church 7 50 60 96 Vniuersalitie 74 101 W The Waldenses and Leonists 105 130 139 Wicked persons no true Members of the Catholike Church 53 200 The wicked eat not Christs flesh 407 Wine as necessarie as Bread in the Eucharist 471 Worship of Images 209 228 241 FINIS Escapes in Printing FOl. 3. D. for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fol. 31. E. for immediately read mediately fol. 50. D. for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fol. 49. C. for Pastres read Pastors fol 50. for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ibid. D. after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 insert 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fol 62 A. for Damascen read 〈◊〉 fol. 62. B. for canta read cauta fol. 63. E. for innisible read inuisible fol. 70. for desensoris read Aug. c. Petil. d. 〈◊〉 fol. 106 B. for redargurere read redarguere fol. 109 for vnde read Otho Frising b. inde fol. 117. C for Agustine read Augustine fol. 127. Theoderit A. for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fol. 132 E. to lawfulnesse adde whereof fol. 138. Gregorie F. for commissi read commisi fol. 150. Tho. Wald. F. for centia read sentio fol. 281. Vasq F. for contemplat read contemplati fol. 291. B. for first read fift vniuersall Councell fol. 300. A. for is expressely read is not expressely fol. 327. B. Alchasar for ille read illi fol. 360. E. Stel. Cor. Mar. for animas read animam fol. 524. August B. for praefect read de perfectione Ibid. Arausican Concil C. for gratiae read gratia Ibid. Bernard d. for Notal read Natal Dom. fol. 527. August C. for inuenire read inuenies fol. 557. F. for owards read towards fol. 559. Theoderit D. for solutis read salutis fol. 560. A. for Guilliandus read Guilliaudus fol. 563. for Scoto read Soto m. fol. 564. A. Enchir. Sarisb for vndecima read vndecem AN ANSVVERE TO Mr FISHERS Relation of a Third Conference betweene a certaine B. as he stiles him and himselfe The Conference was very priuate till Mr FISHER spread certaine Papers of it which in many respects deserued an Answere Which is here giuen by R. B. Chapleine to the B. that was imployed in the Conference LONDON Printed by ADAM ISLIP 1624. TO THE READER THis which followes though it needeth Patronage as great as may be had yet it is such as may not presume to aske it therefore it thrusts it selfe to the End of these Labours that it may seeme to haue the same Patron I would haue put nothing before it were it not necessarie you should know the Cause why the following Discourse was written why it stayed so long before it looked vpon the Light and why it is not able yet to goe alone but is led abroad by this former Worke. The Cause why it was written was this A certaine B. in the Iesuit's stile was called and required to a Conference by Them that might command him The Iesuit with whom hee had to deale was Mr Fisher. Hee began with great Protestations of seeking the Truth onely and for it selfe I would the B. could haue found it so After the Conference ended a great part of which time he spent in reading a passage out of a Booke which himselfe had printed the B. not suspecting any such thing hee spread abroad Papers of the Conference which were full of partialicie to his Cause and more full of Calumnie against the B. Hereupon the B. deliuered me the Papers that were spread and a Note what was mis-spread in them to the vttermost of his Memorie and other helpes And I not departing from that haue here entirely deliuered it to the vse of the Church There was a Cause also why it stayed so long before it could endure to be pressed and you must know that too It was not my idlenesse nor my vnwillingnesse to right both the B. and his Cause against the Paper that was scattered For I haue most Honorable Witnesses that this Thing such as it is was finished long since for the Papers came to my hand after Michaelmasse 1622. and J finished this Relation to them that Tearme But the cause was partly mine owne backwardnesse to deale with these men For they pretend onely for Truth and Vnitie but will 〈◊〉 neither vnlesse they and their Faction may preuaile in all Whereas it is a thing impossible so many deuout and learned men in diuers Ages and Parts of the Church should still pray and sometimes call for a Reformation if the Church had not warped at all or if no Reformation were necessarie And partly because there were about that time three Conferences with Mr. Fisher Two at which the worthie Authour of this fore-going Discourse was present This was the Third and therefore could not well and conueniently come into the world till the two former vpon which it somewhat depended had shewed themselues And the Cause why it cannot yet goe alone but is led into publicke by this former Worke is because before those Nine Articles there goeth a Preface which together with some of the Articles themselues are the mayne and substance of all that passed in the Two former Conferences and so they are fittest to take this Third by the hand and lead it forth J haue thus farre acquainted you with the Occasion of the ensuing discourse J haue beene a faithfull Relator of all passages and the B protests hee hath beene faithfull in relating to me But J cannot but 〈◊〉 and hee hath hard Bowells that grieues not to see Christendome bleeding in dissention Nay which is farre worse triumphing in her owne blood and most angry with them that study her Peace Jn the meane time there are Sua their owne things which S. Paul tells vs All men seeke and not the things that are Iesus Christs And Religion so much pretended and called vpon and the Church the Church so much honoured in name are but the stalking horse other Fowle are shot at Complaint is but a seeming ease of weaker spirits it can helpe nothing And since it cannot vse these Papers for a little support It may be these may giue some stay till God giue stronger So I leaue you to be indifferent between the B. and M. Fisher and for my selfe I shall haue reward enough if you pray for Peace and Truth in the Church and so for me Yours in Christ whom I labour to serue R. B. A BRIEFE RELATION OF WHAT PASSED in a third priuate CONFERENCE betweene a certaine B. and me BEFORE c. ANSVVERED BY R. B. Chaplaine to the B. I hope you will pardon the B. if iust occasion hath spunne my Answer for him to length F. The Occasion of this Conference was B. THE Occasion of this third Conference you should know sufficiently you were an Actor in it as well as the rest
which it can comprehend Now the vse of Reason is verie generall and man doe what he can is still apt to search and seeke for a Reason why he will beleeue though after he once beleeues his Faith growes stronger than either his Reason or his Knowledge and great reason for this because it goes higher than eyther of the other can in this life In this particular the Bookes called the Scripture are commonly and constantly reputed to be the Word of God and so infallible Veritie to the least Point of them Doth any man doubt this The World cannot keepe him from going to weigh it at the Ballance of Reason whether it be the Word of God or not To the same Weights he brings the Tradition of the Church the inward motiues in Scripture it selfe all Testimonies within which seeme to beare witnesse to it and in all this there 's no harme the danger is when a man will vse no other Scale but Reason for the Word of God and the Booke containing it refuse not to be weighed by Reason But the Scale is not large enough to containe nor the Weights to measure out the true vertue and 〈◊〉 force of either Reason then can giue no supernaturall ground into which a man may resolue his Faith That Scripture is the Word of God infallibly yet Reason can goe so high as it can prooue that Christian Religion which rests vpon the Authoritie of this Booke stands vpon surer grounds of Nature Reason common Equitie and Iustice than any thing in the World which any Infidell or meere Naturallist hath done doth or can adhere vnto against it in that which he makes accounts or assumes as Religion to himselfe The antient Fathers relyed vpon the Scriptures no Christians more and hauing to doe with Philosophers men verie well seene in all the subtleties which naturall Reason could teach or learne they were often put to it and did as often make it good That they had sufficient warrant to relye as much as they did vpon Scripture In all which Disputes because they were to deale with Infidels they did labour to make good the Authoritie of the Booke of God by such arguments as vnbeleeuers themselues could not but thinke reasonable if they 〈◊〉 them with indifferencie And it is not altogether impossible to prooue it euen by Reason a Truth infallible or else to make them denie some apparant Principle of their owne For example It is an apparant Principle and with them That God or the absolute prime Agent cannot be forced out of any possession for if hee could be forced by another greater he were neither Prince nor Absolute nor God in their owne Theologie Now they must graunt That that God and Christ which the Scripture teaches and wee beleeue is the onely true God and no other with him and so denie the Deitie which they worshipped or else denie their owne Principle about the Deitie That God cannot be commanded and forced out of possession For their Gods Saturne and Serapis and Iupiter himselfe haue beene adiured by the name of the true and onely God and haue beene forced out of the bodies they possessed and confessed themselues to be foule and seducing Deuils And their confession was to be supposed true in point of Reason for they that were adored as Gods would neuer belie themselues into Deuils to their owne reproach especially in the presence of them that worshipped them were they not forced This many of the vnbeleeuers saw therefore they could not in verie force of Reason but they must either denie their God or denie their Principle in Nature Their long Custome would not forsake their God and their Reason could not forget their Principle If Reason therefore might iudge among them they could not worship any thing that was vnder command And if it be reasonable to doe and beleeue this then why not reasonable also to beleeue that the Scripture is his Word giuen to teach himselfe and Christ since there they find Christ doing that and giuing power to doe it after which themselues saw executed vpon their Deuill_Gods Besides whereas all other written Lawes haue scarce had the honour to be duly obserued or constantly allowed worthie approbation in the particular places where they haue beene established for Lawes this Law of Christ and this Canon of Scripture the container of it is or hath beene receiued in almost all Nations vnder Heauen And wheresoeuer it hath beene receiued it hath beene both approoued for vnchangeable Good and beleeued for infallible Veritie This persuasion could not haue beene wrought in men of all sorts but by working vpon their Reason vnlesse wee shall thinke all the World vnreasonable that receiued it And certainely God did not giue this admirable facultie of Reasoning to the Soule of man for any cause more prime than this to discouer or at least to iudge and allow of the way to himselfe when and howsoeuer it should be discouered One great thing that troubled Rationall men was that which stumbled the Manichee an Heresie it was but more than halfe Pagan namely That somewhat must be beleeued before much could be knowne Wise men vse not to beleeue but what they know And the Manichee scorned the Orthodox Christian as light of beleefe promising to lead no Disciple after him but vpon euident knowledge This stumbles many but yet the Principle That somewhat must be beleeued before much can be knowne stands firme in Reason still For if in all Sciences there be some Principles which cannot be prooued if Reason be able to see this and confesse it if almost all Artists haue granted it Who can iustly denie that to Diuinitie A Science of the highest Obiect God himselfe which he easily and reasonably grants to inferior Sciences which are more within his 〈◊〉 And as all Sciences suppose some Principles without proouing so haue they almost all some Text some Authoritie vpon which they relye in some measure and it is Reason they should For though these make not their Texts infallible as Diuinitie doth yet full consent and prudent examination and long continuance haue woon reputation to them and settled reputation vpon them verie deseruedly For were these Texts more void of Truth than they are yet it were fit to vphold their credit that Nouices and young beginners in a Science which are not yet able to worke strongly vpon Reason nor Reason vpon them may haue Authoritie to beleeue till they can learne to conclude from Principles and so to know Is this also reasonable in other Sciences and shall it not be so in Theologie to haue a Text a Scripture a Rule which Nouices may be taught first to beleeue that so they may after come to the knowledge of those things which out of this rich Principle and Treasure are deduceable I yet see not how right Reason can denie these grounds and if it cannot then a meere naturall man may be thus farre conuinced That the
Ibid. cap. 2. Quas oues quem Gregem non solum tune Beatus 〈◊〉 Petrus sed nobiscum eas suscepit cumillo cas nos suscepimus omnes b Iren. lib. 4. cap. 43. Eis qui in Ecclesia sunt Presbyteris obaudire oporter his qui successionem habent ab Apostolis qui cum Episcopatus successione Charisma veritatis certum secundum placitum Patris acceperunt Ibid. cap. 44. Qui Apostolorum Doctrinam custodiunt Greg. Nazian Orat. 21. d. laud. Basil. Qui eandem Fidei doctrinam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quoque throni particeps est c. a Bellarm. d. Pontif Rom. praef Extrauag com l. 1. tit 9. d. Maior obed ca. vnam sanctam Subesse Rom. Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus dicimus definimus pronunciam ' omnino esse de necessitate salutis Paul Cararia sum mor. Canon q. 2. ar 4. p. 4. n. 26. Non solum omnis fidelis populus verum etiam infidelis omnis rationalis creatura Papae imperio subiacet b Canus loc l. 6. c. 8. Romanum Pontif. Petrosucoedere non est perse quidem in Sacris literis Reuelatum Dried d. Ecclesia Dogm l. 4. c. 3. c Soto 4. Sent. Dist. 24. q. 2. ar 5. Nulli particulari Ecclesiae addixit neque aliunde institutio Christi circa hoc constat c. Cusan Concord Cath. l. 2. c. 34. pa. 599. Non 〈◊〉 probari Rom. Pontif. perpetuum Principem 〈◊〉 esse Succession in loco non 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 AEneus Sylu. d. gest Basil. Concil l. 1. Ioannes 〈◊〉 The 〈◊〉 peritissimus glossam illam singularem quae Rom. Ecclesiam orbi praeponeret dixitse omnino contemnere beneque singularem esse quae tam fatua diceret indignumque fore vt illam quispiam 〈◊〉 c. a Chrys in Act. Apost Hom. 3. Petrus egit omnia ex communi Discipulorum 〈◊〉 nihil ex 〈◊〉 nihil cum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 b Saint 〈◊〉 liued 30. yeeres after Saint Peter Baron annual to 1. An. 69. n. 1. to 2. Anno. 101. n. 2. 〈◊〉 Haer. 66. Praeterijt generatio Apostolorum à Petro inquam vsque ad 〈◊〉 Ioannem qui etiam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in mundo vsque ad 〈◊〉 tempora c Eusebius in his 〈◊〉 Historie speaketh no word of it Bulenger c. 〈◊〉 Si quando apud Eusebium aliosque nonnullos de potestate sedis Apostolicae Paulo obscurius agi videris Sic 〈◊〉 ante be 〈◊〉 illud 〈◊〉 seculum c. d 〈◊〉 apud Cypr. Ep. 75. Atque ego in hac parte 〈◊〉 indignor ad hanc tam apertam manifestam Stephani stultitiam quod qui sic de Episcopatus sui loco gloriatur se successionem Petri tenere contendit Tertul. d. pud c. 21. De tua nunc sententia quero vndè hoc 〈◊〉 Ecclesiae vsurpes Si quia dixerit Petro. Dominus super hanc Petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam tibi dedi claues Regni caelorum velquaecunque alligaueris c. Qualis es euertens atque commutans manifestam Domini intenrionem personaliter hoc Petro conferentem super te inquit aedificabo Ecclesiam meam e Euseb. Hist. l. 5. c. 26. f Chalced. Concil Act. 16. ca. 28. Centum quinquaginta Dei amantiss Episc. sanctiss noua Roma throno 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aequalia 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 recte iudicantes vrbem quae imperio senatu honorata sit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aequalibus 〈◊〉 antiquiss Regina Roma priuilegijs fruatur etiam in rebus Ecclesiast non secus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ac illa extolli magni fieri secundam post illam existentem g Greg. li. 4. Epist. 31. 32. 34. 38. 39. li. 6. Epist. 24. Cusan Concord Cath. li. 2. c. 34. h Graeci Asiani c. Nilus Archiepisc. 〈◊〉 l. c. d. Primat Papae a 〈◊〉 d. Spir. sanct ca. 18. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Damas. lib. 4. ca. 12. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Cyril in Iohan. li. 4. ca. 9. Ianua via in vitamsides est recursus quidam atquè reductio à corruptione in immortalitatem Aug. d. Temp. Serm. 181. Fides omnium bonorum est 〈◊〉 humanae salutis initium Sine hac nemo ad numerum 〈◊〉 Dei 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sine 〈◊〉 in hoc seculo nec iustificationis consequitur gratiam nec in futuro possidebit vitam 〈◊〉 Fulgent d. Incarn Grat. c. 20. Vita nostra à fide sumit initium quia justus ex fide viuit 〈◊〉 Sum. li. 3. 〈◊〉 12. q. 2. Nos sequentes authoritatem Apostoli expositiones Sanctorum dicimus quod fides formata praecedit omnem aliam 〈◊〉 Origen sup c. 4. ep ad Rom. Aug. sup Psal. 31. Et d. Verb. Apost serm 22. b Meisner Anthrop Dec. 3. p. 329. Credimus peccata nobis esse remissa sed haec fides formalitèr non iustificat verum 〈◊〉 sequitur c Musculus loc com d. Remiss pecc sect 6. Discernendum est intèr eam gratiam Dei quae nullas habet adiectas conditiones qualis est quod Solem suum producit supèr bonos 〈◊〉 c. Et cam quae conditionaliter confertur ad quem modum remissio peccatorum nobis contingit d Beza Colloq Mompelgard pa. 471. Edit Tubing Consolatio quod adoptati sumus petenda est ex effectis spiritus sancti quandò videlicet sentimus in nobis eiusmodi motus spiritus sancti qui testificantur nos vetè regeneratos e Aug. d. Cor. Grat. c. 13. Quis ex multitudine fidelium quamdiu in hac mortalitate viuitur in numero 〈◊〉 se esse praesumat quià id occultari opus est in hoc loco vbi cauenda est elatio a Ioh. Ferus sup Math. 8. v. 8. Vera fides fiducialitèr accedit nòn dubitat Deū posse aut velle ca. 9. v. 2. Fides haec nihil aliud fuit quā fiducia in misericordiā Christi b The manner of this 〈◊〉 assent is Being humbled with sence of mine owne iniustice I beleeue that God will be mercifull vnto me and pardō all my sinnes for the merits of Christ my Sauior and I depend and relie only vpon the merits of my Rodeemer as vpon the prime cause of my iustification c Iansen Conc. Euang. c. 32 p. 206. Nomine fidei in Euangelijs cùm ei tribuitur salus aut consecutio omniū 〈◊〉 volumus compleri vtrumque nempè assensum illū firmum in credendis de Deo ac Christo fiduciam ex illius omnipotente bonitare conceptam Bernard ser. 3. d. Annunciat Nèc oleum misericordiae nisi in vase fiduciae ponis d 〈◊〉 Dicimus Fidem in disputatione Paudi de iustificatione accipi vt complectatur non solum 〈◊〉 verùm etià m 〈◊〉 in Christum propitiatorem e Ferus sup Math. c. 8. citatur à Sixto Senensi Biblioth lib. 6. 〈◊〉 48. Non sempèr Fides est quod nos Fidem dicimus Fidem nos dicimus 〈◊〉