their own and are with all submission to be observed by every Christian where Scripture or evident Demonstration come not against them Nor doth it make way for the Whirlewind of a private Spirit For Private Spirits are too giddy to rest upon Scripture and too heady and shallow to be acquainted with Demonstrative Arguments And it were happy for the Church if she might never be troubled with Private Spirits till they brought such Arguments I know this is hotly objected against c Praefat. p. 29. Hooker the d Dialogus â—…ctus Deus Rex Authour cals him a e Cordatus Protestans Wise Protestant yet turnes thus upon him If a Councell must yeeld to a Demonstrative Proofe Who shall Iudge whether the Argument that is brought be a Demonstration or not For every man that will kicke against the Church will say the Scripture he urges is evident and his Reason a Demonstration And what is this but to leave all to the wildenesse of a Private Spirit Can any ingenuous man read this Passage in Hooker and dreame of a Private Spirit For to the Question Who shall judge Hooker answers as if it had beene then made f Praef. p. 29. And therefore A. C. is much to blame after all this to talk of a pretext of seeming evident Scripture or Demonstration As he doth p 59. An Argument necessary and Demonstrative is such saith he as being proposed to any man and understood the minde cannot chuse but inwardly assent unto it So it is not enough to thinke or say it is Demonstrative The Light then of a Demonstrative Argument is the Evidence which it selfe hath in it selfe to all that understand it Well but because all understand it not If a Quarrell be made Who shall decide it No Question a § 32. Nu. 2. but a Generall Councell not a Private Spirit first in the intent of the Authour for Hooker in all that Discourse makes the Sentence of the Councell b Praesat p. 28. binding and therefore that is made Judge not a Private Spirit And then for the Judge of the Argument it is as plaine For if it be evident to any man then to so many Learned men as are in a Councell doubtlesse And if they cannot but assent it is hard to thinke them so impious that they will define against it And if that which is thought evident to any man be not evident to such a grave Assembly it is probable 't is no Demonstration and the producers of it ought to rest and not to trouble the Church Nor is this Hooker's alone nor is it newly thought on by us It is a Ground in Nature which Grace doth ever set right never undermine And c 2 de Bapt cont Don. cap. 4. S. Augustine hath it twice in one Chapter That S. Cyprian and that Councell at Carthage would have presently yeelded to any one that would d Uni verum dicenti demonstr anti demonstrate Truth Nay it is a Rule with e Cont. Fund cap. 4. him Consent of Nations Authority confirmed by Miracles and Antiquity S. Peters Chaire and Succession from it Motives to keepe him in the Catholike Church must not hold him against Demonstration of Truth f Quae quidem si tam manifesta monâ—…ratur ut in dubtum â—…enire non possit praeponenâ—…a est omâ—…ibus ills rebus quiius in Catholica 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 aciquid apertissimâ—… in Euangelâ—… 〈◊〉 c. 4. which if it bee so clearely demonstrated that it cannot come into doubt it is to be preferred before all those things by which a man is held in the Catholike Church Therefore an evident Scripture or Demonstration of Truth must take place every where but where these cannot be had there must be Submission to Authority And doth not Bellarmine himselfe grant this For speaking of Councels he delivers this Proposition That Inferiours may not judge whether their Superiours and that in a Councell do proceed lawfully or not But then having bethought himselfe that Inferiours at all times and in all Causes are not to be cast off he adds this Exception a L. 2 de Concil c. 8. §. Alii dicunt Cencilium Nisi manifestissimè constet intolerabilem Errorem committi Unlesse it manifestly appeare that an intolerable Errour be committed So then if such an Errour be and be manifest Inferiours may do their duty and a Councell must yeeld unlesse you will accuse Bellarmine too of leaning to a Private Spirit for neither doth he expresse who shall judge whether the Errour be intolerable This will not downe with you but the Definition of a Generall Councell is and must be infallible Your Fellowes tell us and you can affirme no more That the Voice of the Church determining in Councell is not b Stapl. Relect. Cont. 4. Q. 3. Ar. 1. Humane but Divine That is well Divine then sure Infallible yea but the Proposition stickes in the throat of them that would utter it It is not Divine simply but in a c Divina suo modo Ibid. And so A. C. too who hath opened his mouth very wide to proove the Succession of Pastors in the Church to be of Divine and infallible Authority yet in the close is forced to add At least in some sort p. 51. manner Divine Why but then sure not infallible because it may speak lowdest in that manner in which it is not Divine Nay more The Church forsooth is an infallible Foundation of Faith d In altiori genere viz. in geners causae efficientis atque adeò aliquâ exparte formalis Ibid. Q. 4. Ar. 3. in an higher kinde then the Scripture For the Scripture is but a Foundation in Testimony and Matter to be believed but the Church as the efficient cause of Faith and in some sort the very formall Is not this Blasphemie Doth not this knock against all evidence of Truth and his owne Grounds that sayes it Against all evidence of Truth For in all Ages all men that once admitted the Scripture to be the Word of God as all Christians doe doe with the same breath grant it most undoubted and infallible But all men have not so judged of the Churches Definitions though they have in greatest Obedience submitted to them And against his owne Grounds that sayes it For the Scripture is absolutely and every way Divine the Churches Definition is but suo modo in a sort or manner Divine But that which is but in a sort can never be a Foundation in an Higher Degree then that which is absolute and every way such Therefore neither can the Definition of the Church be so infallible as the Scripture much lesse in altiori genere in a higher kinde then the Scripture But because when all other things faile you flie to this That the Churches Definition in a Generall Councell is by Inspiration and so Divine and infallible My haste shall not carrie mee from a little Consideration of that too Sixtly then If the
force me to dissent And in that Case I shall do it without Contempt too This onely I will say b Nemini in sua causa eredendum nisi conformitter ad Legem Divinam Naturalem Canouicam loquatur So Io. Gerson the Doctors of Paris cited in Lib. Anon. de Ecclesiastica Politica Potestate c. 16. Ed. Paris 1612. Now these Popes doe not speak here conformably to these Lawes That Sixe Popes concurring in opinion shall have lesse waight with me in their own Cause than any other Sixe of the more Ancient Fathers Indeed could I swallow b L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 3. Bellarmines Opinion That the Popes Iudgement is Infallible I would then submit without any more adoe But that will never downe with me unlesse I live till I doate which I hope in God I shall not Other Proofes than these Bellarmine brings not to prove that the Particular Church of Rome cannot erre in or from the Faith And of what force these are to sway any Iudgement I submit to all indifferent Readers And having thus examined Bellarmines Proofes That the Particular Church of Rome cannot erre in Faith I now returne to A. C. and the A. C. p. 42. Iesuite and tell them that no Iesuite or any other is ever able to prove any Particular Church Infallible But for the Particular Church of Rome and the Pope with it erred it hath And therefore may erre Erred I say it hath in the Worship of Images and in altering Christs Institution in the blessed Sacrament by taking away the Cup from the People and diverse other particulars as shall appeare at †§. 33. Consid. 7. Num. 5. 12 after And as for the Ground which is presumed to secure this Church from Errour 't is very remarkable How the c Romanae Ecclesia Particularis non potest errare persistente Romae Apostolicá sede Propositio haec est verissima fortasse tam vera quam illa prima de Pontifice L. 4 de Rom. Pont. c. 4. §. 2. And that first proposition is this Summus Pontifex cum totam Ecclesiam docet in his quae ad fidem pertinent nullo casu errare potest Ibid. c. 3. §. 1. Learned Cardinall speakes in this Case For he tells us that this Proposition So long as S. Peter's Chaire is at Rome that Particular Church cannot erre in the Faith is verissima most true and yet in the very next words 't is Fortasse tam vera peradventure as true as the former that is That the Pope when he teaches the whole Church in those things which belong to the faith cannot erre in any case What is that Proposition most true And yet is it but at a peradventure 't is as true as this Is it possible any thing should be absolutely most true and yet under a Peradventure that it is but as true as another truth But here without all Peradventure neither Proposition is true And then indeed Bellarmine may say without a Fortasse That this proposition The Particular Church of Rome cannot erre so long as the Sea Apostolike is there is as true as this The Pope cannot erre while he teaches the whole Church in those things which belong to the Faith For neither of them is true But he cannot say that either of them is verissima most true when neither of them hath Truth 2. Secondly if the Particular Church of Rome be Infallible and can neither erre in the Faith nor fall from it then it is because the Sea Apostolike cannot be transferred from Rome but must ever to the consummation of the World remaine there and keepe that Particular Church from erring Now to this what sayes Bellarmine what why he tells us a Pia probabilissima Sententia est Cathedram Petri non posse separari à Româ proinde Romanam Ecclesiam absolutè non posse errare vel deficere L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 4. §. Quod nihilominus That it is a pious and most probable Opinion to thinke so And he reckons foure Probabilities that it shall never be remov'd from Rome And I will not deny but some of them are faire Probabilities But yet they are but Probabilities and so unable to convince any man Why but then what if a man cannot thinke as Bellarmine doth but that enforced by the light of his understanding he must thinke the quite contrary to this which Bellarmine thinks pious and so probable What then Why then b Contraria sententia nee est Haeretica nee manifestè erronea L. 4. de Rom. Pont. c. 4. §. At socundum Bellarmine himselfe tells you that the quite contrary Proposition to this namely That S. Peter's Chayre may be severed from Rome and that theâ—… that Particular Church may erre is neither Haereticall nor manifestly erroneous So then by Bellarmines owne Confession I am no Haereticke nor in any manifest error if I say as indeed I doe and thinke it too that 't is possible for S. Peter's Chaire to be carried from Rome and that then at least by his owne argument that Church may erre Now then upon the whole matter and to returne to A. C. If that Lady desired to rely upon a A. C. p. 42. particular infallible Church 't is not to be found on earth Rome hath not that gift nor her Bishop neither And Bellarmine who I thinke was as able as any Champion that Church hath dares not say t is either Haeresie or a manifest error to say That the Apostolike Sea may be removed thence and That Church not only erre in Faith but also fall quite away from it Now I for my part have not ignorance enough in me to believe That that Church which may Apostatize at some one time may not erre at another Especially since both her erring and failing may arise from other Causes besides that which is mention'd by the Cardinall And if it may erre 't is not Infallible F. The Question was Which was that Church A friend of the Ladies would needs defend That not only the Romane but also the Greek Church was right B. When that Honourable Personage answered § 4 I was not by to heare But I presume He was so farre from granting that only the Romane Church was right as that He did not grant it right And that He tooke on him no other Defence of the poore Greeke Church then was according to truth F. I told him That the Greeke Church had plainly changed and taught false in a Poynt of Doctrine concerning the Holy Ghost and That I had hear'd say that even His Majestie should say That the Greeke Church having erred against the Holy Ghost had lost the Holy Ghost B. You are very bold with His Majesty to § 5 relate Him upon Heare-say My Intelligence serves me not to tell you what His Majestie said But if he said it not you have beene too credulous to believe and too suddaine to report it Princes deserve and were
explicandi Emanationem Sp. S. quà m in ipsá re c. Iodocus Clictoveus in Damase L 1. Fid Orth. c. 11. Et quidam ex Graecis concedunt quòd sit á Filio vel ab eo prostuat Thom. p. 1. q. 36. A. 2. C. Et Thomas ipse dicit Sp. S. procedere mediatè à Filio ib. A. 3. ad 1. salâ—…em ratione Personarum Spirantium Respondeo cum Bessarione Gennadio Damascenum non negâsse Sp. S. procedere ex Filio quod ad rem attinet quùm dixerit Spiritum esse Imaginem Filii per Filium sed existimásse tutiùs dici per Filium quà m ex Filio quantum ad modum loquendi c. Bellarm. L. 2. de Christo c. 27. §. Respondeo igitur Et Tollet in S. Iohn 15. Ar. 25. Lutheran Resp. ad Resp. 2. Ieremiae Patriarchae The Master and his Schollers agree upon it The Greeks saith he confesse the Holy Ghost to bee the Spirit of the Son with the Apostle Galath 4. and the Spirit of truth S. Iohn 16. And since Non est aliud it is not another thing to say The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Father and the Sonne then that He is or proceeds from the Father and the Sonne in this They seeme to agree with us in candem Fidei sententiam upon the same Sentence of Faith though they differ in words Now in this cause where the words differ but the Sentence of Faith is the same d Eadem penitùs Sententia ubi suprà Clictov penitùs eadem even altogether the same Can the Point be fundamentall You may make them no Church as e Bellarm. 4. de Notis Eccl. cap. 8. §. Quod autem apud Graecos Bellarmine doth and so deny them salvation which cannot be had out of the true Church but I for my part dare not so do And Rome in this Particular should be more moderate if it be but because this Article Filióque was added to the Creed by her selfe And 't is hard to adde and Anathematize too It ought to be no easie thing to condemne a man of Heresie in foundation of faith much lesse a Church least of all so ample and large a Churchas the Greeke especially so as to make them no Church Heaven Gates were not so easily shut against multitudes when S. Peter wore the Keyes at his owne girdle And it is good counsell which a Lib. 3. cont Hares fol. 93. A. 〈◊〉 vidcant ht qui famile de haerest pronumiant quaÌ„ facile etiam ipsi errent Et intelligant non esse tam leviter de Haeresi censenduÌ„ c. In verbo Beatitudo Alphonsus à castro one of your owne gives Let them consider that pronounce easily of Heresie how easie it is for themselves to erre Or if you will pronounce consider what it is that separates from the Church simply and not in part only I must needs professe that I wish heartily as well as b Iunius Animad in Bellar. cont 2. L. 3. c. 23. others that those distressed men whose Crosse is heavie already had beene more plainly and moderately dealt withall though they thinke a diverse thing from us then they have beene by the Church of Rome But hereupon you say you were forc'd F. Whereupon I was forced to repeate what I had formerly brought against D. White concerning Points Fundamentall B. Hereupon it is true that you read a large § 10 Discourse out of a Booke printed which you said was yours The Particulars all of them at the least I do not now remember nor did I then approve But if they be such as were formerly brought against Doctor White they are by him formerly answered The first thing you did was the * P. First righting the Sentence of S. Austine Ferendus est Disputator errans c. Here A. C. p. 44. tells us very learnedly that my corrupt Copy hath righting instead of reading the Sentence of S. Austine Whereas I here use the word righting not as it is opposed to reading as any man may discerne A. C. palpably mistakes but for doing right to S. Austine And if I had meant it for writing I should not have spelled it so righting of S. Augustine which Sentence I doe not at all remember was so much as named in the Conference much lesse was it stood upon and then righted by you Another place of S. Augustine indeed was which you omit But it comes after about Tradition to which I remit it But now you tell us of a great Proofe made out of this †By which is proved That all poynts Defined by the Church are Fundamentall Place For these words of yours containe two Propositions One That all Poynts defined by the Church are Fundamentall The other That this is proved out of this Place of S. Augustine 1. For the first That all Poynts defined by the Church are fundamentall It was not the least meanes by which Rome grew to her Greatnesse to blast every Opposer she had with the name of Hereticke or Schismaticke for this served to shrivel the credit of the Persons And the Persons once brought into contempt and ignominie all the good they desired in the Church fell to dust for want of creditable Persons to backe and support it To make this Proceeding good in these later yeares this Course it seemes was taken The Schoole that must maintaine and so they doe That all Points Defined by the Church are thereby a Your owne word Fundamentall b Inconcussâ fide ab omnibus Thom. 2. 2ae q. 1. Art 10. C. necessary to be believed c Sco us 1. Sent. d. 11. q. 1. of the substance of the Faith and that though it be determined quite d Ecclesiae Voces etiam extra Scripturam Stap. Relect. Con. 4. q. 1. Ar. 3. Quae maturo judicio definivit c. Solidum est etiamsi nullo Scripturarum aut evidenti aut probabili testimonio confirmaretur bid Extra Scripturam And then e Et penes Cercopes Victoria sit Greg. Naz. de Differen vitae Cercopes 1. Astutos veteratoriae improbitat is Episcopos qui artibus suis ac dolis omnia Concilia perturbabant Schol. ib. leave the wise and active Heads to take order that there be strength enough ready to determine what is fittest for them But since these men distinguish not nor you betweene the Church in generall and a Generall Councell which is but her Representation for Determinations of the Faith though I be very slow in sifting or opposing what is concluded by Lawfull Generall and consenting Authority though I give as much as can justly be given to the Definitions of Councels truly Generall nay suppose I should grant which I doe not That Generall Councells cannot erre yet this cannot downe with me That all Poynts even so defined are Fundamentall For Deductions are not prime and native Principles nor are Superstructures Foundations That which is a
his abodc on Earth And this Promise of his spirituall presence was to their Successors else why to the end of the world The Apostles did not could not live so long But then to the * Rabanus Manr goes no furrher then that to the End some will alwayes bee in the world fit for Christ by his Spirit and Grace to inhabit Divina mansione inhabitatione digni Rab. in S. Mat. 28. 19 20. Pergatis habentes Dominum Protectorem Ducem saith S. Cypr. L. 4. Epist. 1. But he doth not say How farre sorth And loquitur Fidelibus sicut uni Corpcri S. Chrysost. Homil in S. Matth. And if S Chrysost. inlarge it so farre I hope A. C. will not extend the Assistance given or promised here to the whole Body of the Faithfull to an Infallible and Divine Assistance in every of them as well as in the Pastors and Doctors Successors the Promise goes no further then I am with you alwayes which reaches to continuall assistance but not to Divine and Infallible Or if he think me mistaken let him shew mee any One Father of the Church that extends the sense of this Place to Divine and Infallible Assistance granted hereby to all the Apostles Successors Sure I am Saint †In illis donâ—… quibus salus aliorum quaeritur qualia sunt Prâ—…phetiae interpretationes Sermanum c. Spiritus Sanctus nequaquam semper in Pradicatorib us permanet S. Greg. L. 2. Moral c 29. prin Edit Basil. 1551. Gregory thought otherwise For hee saies plainly That in those Gifts of God which concern other mens salvation of which Preaching of the Gospell is One the Spirit of Christ the Holy Ghost doth not alwayes abide in the Preachers bee they never so lawfully sent Pastors or Doctors of the Church And if the Holy Ghost doth not alwayes abide in the Preachers then most certainly he doth not abide in them to a Divine Infallibility alwayes The Third Place is in S. Iohn 14. where Christ sayes S. Iohn 14. 16. The Comforter the Holy Ghost shall abide with you for ever Most true againe For the Holy Ghost did abide with the Apostles according to Christs Promise there made and shall abide with their Successors for ever to * Iste Consolator non auferetur à Vobis sicut subtrahitur Humaint as mea per mortem sed aternalitèr erit Vobiscum hic per Grasiam in futuro per Gloriam Lyra. in S. John 14. 16 You see there the Holy Ghost shal be present by Consolation and Grace not by Infallible Assistance comfort and preserve them But here 's no Promise of Divine Infallibility made unto them And for that Promise which is made and expresly of Infallibility Saint Iohn 16. though not S. Ioh. 16. 13. cited by A. C. That 's confined to the Apostles onely for the setling of thâ—…m in all Truth And yet not simply all For there are some Truths saith a Omnem veritatem Non arbitror in hac vita in cujusquam mente compleri c. S. Augustin in S. Ioh Tract 96. versus fin Saint Augustine which no mans Soule can comprehend in this life Not simply all But b Spiritus Sanctus c. qui eos doceret Omnem Veritatem quam tunc cum iis loquebatur portare non poterant S. Ioh. 16. 12 13. S. Augustin Tract 97. in S. Ioh. prin all those Truths quae non poterant portare which they were not able to beare when Hee Conversed with them Not simply all but all that was necessary for the Founding propagating establishing and Confirming the Christian Church But if any man take the boldnesse to inlarge this Promise in the fulnesse of it beyond the persons of the Apostles themselves that will fall out which Saint c Omnes vel insipientissimi Haeretici qui se Christianos vocars volunt audacias figmentorum suorum quas maximè exhorret sensus humanus hac Occasione Evangelicae sententiae colorare comentur c. S. Augustin T. 97. in S. Ioh. circamed Augustine hath in a manner prophecyed Every Heretick will shelter himselfe and his Vanities under this Colour of Infallible Veritie I told you a * Num. 26. A. C. p. 52. little before that A. C. his Penne was troubled and failed him Therefore I will helpe to make out his Inference for him that his Cause may have all the strength it can And as I conceive this is that hee would have The Tradition of the present Church is as able to worke in us Divine and Infallible Faith That the Scripture is the VVord of God As that the Bible or Bookes of Scripture now printed and in use is a true Copie of that which was first written by the Penne-men of the Holy Ghost and delivered to the Church 'T is most true the Tradition of the present Church is a like operative and powerfull in and over both these workes but neither Divine nor Infallible in either But as it is the first morall Inducement to perswade that Scripture is the Word of God so is it also the first but morall still that the Bible wee now have is a true Copie of that which was first written But then as in the former so in this latter for the true Copie The last Resolution of our Faith cannot possibly rest upon the naked Tradition of the present Church but must by and with it goe higher to other Helpes and Assurances Where I hope A. C. will confesse wee have greater helpes to discover the truth or falshood of a Copie then wee have meanes to looke into a Tradition Or especially to sift out this Truth that it was a Divine and Infalliâ—…le Revelation by which the Originals of Scripture were first written That being fatre more the Subject of this Inquiry then the Copie which according to Art and Science may be examined by former preceding Copies close up to the very Apostles times But A. C. hath not done yet For in the last place hee tells us That Tradition and Scripture A. C. p. 53. without any vicious Circle doe mutually confirme the Authority either of other And truly for my part I shall easily grant him this so hee will grant mee this other Namely That though they doe mutually yet they doe not equally confirme the Authority either of other For Scripture doth infallibly confirme the Authority of Church Traditions truly so called But Tradition doth but morally and probably confirme the Authority of the Scripture And this is manifest by A. C ' s. owne Similitude For saith he 't is as a Kings Embassadors word of mouth and His Kings Letters beare mutuall witnesse to each other Iust so indeed For His Kings Letters of Credence under hand and seale confirme the Embassadors Authority Infallibly to all that know Seale and hand But the Embassadors word of mouth confirmes His Kings Letters but onely probably For else Why are they called Letters of Credence if they give not him
traditum est S. Cypri ad Pompeium cont Epist. Stephan princ tradere non traditum make a Tradition of that which was not delivered to her and by some of Them then She is unfaithful to God and doth not servare depositum faithfully keepe that which is committed to her Trust. * 1 Tim. 6. 20. and 2 Tim. 1. 14. 1 Tim. 6. And her Sonnes which come to know it are not bound to obey her Tradition against the c Si ipsa Ecclesia contraria Scripturae diceret Fidelis ipsi non crederet c. Hen. a Gand. Sum. p. 1. A. 10. q. 1. And Bellarmiâ—…e himselfe that he might the more safely defend himselfe in the Cause of Traditions sayes but how truly let other men Iudge Nullam Traditionem admittimus contra Scripturam L. 4. 〈◊〉 Verbo Dei c. 3. §. Deindè commune Word of their Father For wheresoever Christ holds his peace or that his words aâ—…e not Registred I am of S. d S. Aug. Tom. 96. in 〈◊〉 Ioh. in illâ—… Ferba Multa habeo dicere sed non potestis portare modò Augustines Opinion No man may dare without rashnesse say they were these or these So there were many unwritten Words of God which were never delivered over to the Church and thereâ—…ore never made Tradition And there are many Traditions which cannot be said to be the unwritten word of God For I believe a Learned Romanist that will weigh before he speakes will not easily say That to Annoint or use Spittle in Baptisme or to use three Dippings in the use of that Sacrament or diverse other like Traditions had their Rise from any Word of God unwritten Or if he be so hardy as to say so 't is gratis dictum and he will have enough to doe to prove it So there may be an unwritten Word of God which is no Tradition And there are many Traditions which are no unwritten Word of God Therfore Tradition must be taken two wayes Either as it is the Churches Act delivering or the Thing thereby delivered and then 't is Humane Authority or from it and unable infallibly to warrant Divine Faith or to be the Object of it Or els as it is the unwritten Word of God and then where ever it can be made to appeare so 't is of divine and infallible Authority no question But then I would have A. C. consider where he is in A. C. p. 49. this Particular He tels us We must know infallibly that the Bookes of Holy Scripture are Divine and that this must be done by unwritten Tradition but so as that this Tradition is the Word of God unwritten Now let him but prove that this or any Tradition which the Church of Rome stands upon is the Word of God though unwritten and the businesse is ended But A. C. must not thinke that because the Tradition of the Church tels me these Bookes are Verbum Dei Gods A. C. p. 50. Word and that I do both honour and believe this Tradition That therefore this Tradition it selfe is Gods Word too and so absolutely sufficient and infallible to worke this Beliefe in me Therefore for ought A. C. hath yet added we must on with our Inquiry after this great Businesse and most necessary Truth 2. For the second way of proving That Scripture should be fully and sufficiently knowne as by Divine and Infallible Testimony Lumine proprio by the resplendency of that Light which it hath in it selfe onely and by the witnesse that it can so give to it selfe I could never yet see cause to allow a Hook l. 2. §. 4 For as there is no place in Scripture that tels us Such Books containing such and such Particulars are the Canon and infallible Will and Word of God So if there were any such place that were no sufficient proofe For a man may justly aske another Booke to beare witnesse of that and againe of that another and where ever it were written in Scripture that must be a part of the Whole And no created thing can alone give witnesse to it selfe and make it evident nor one part testifie for another and satisfie where Reason will but offer to contest Except those Principles onely of Naturall knowledge which appeare manifest by intuitive light of understanding without any Discourse And yet they also to the weaker sort require Induction preceding Now this Inbred light of Scripture is a thing coincident with Scripture it selfe and so the Principles and the Conclusion in this kind of proofe should be entirely the same which cannot be Besides if this inward Light were so cleare how could there have beene any variety among the Ancient Believers touching the Authority of S. a Euseb. L. 2. c. 27. fine Edit Basil. 1549. Iames and S. Jude's Epistles and the b Euseb. L. 3. c. 25. Apocalyps with other Bookes which were not received for diverse yeares after the rest of the New Testament For certainly the Light which is in the Scripture was the same then which now it is And how could the Gospell of S. Bartholomew of S. Thomas and other counterfeit peeces obtaine so much credit with some as to be received into the Canon if the evidence of this Light were either Universall or Infallible of and by it selfe And this though I cannot approve yet me thinks you may and upon probable grounds at least For I hope no †Except A. C. whose boldness herein I cannot but pitie For he denies this light to the Scripture and gives it to Tradition His words are p. 52. Tradition of the Church is of a company which by its owne light shewes it selfe to bee infallibly assisted c. Romanist will deny but that there is as much light in Scripture to manifest and make ostension of it selfe to be infallibly the written Word of God as there is in any Tradition of the Church that it is Divine and infallibly the unwritten Word of God And the Scriptures saying from the mouthes of the Prophets b Isa 44. passina Thus saith the Lord and from the mouthes of the a Act. 28. 25. Apostles that the Holy Ghost spake by them are at least as able and as fit to beare witnesse to their owne Verity as the Church is to beare witnesse to her owne Traditions by bare saying they come from the Apostles And your selves would never go to the Scripture to prove that there are Traditions b 2. Thess. 2. 15. Iude vers 3. as you do if you did not thinke the Scripture as easie to be discovered by inbred light in itselfe as Traditions by their light And if this be so then it is as probable at the least which some of ours affirme That Scripture may bee knowne to bee the Word of God by the Light and Lustre which it hath in it selfe as it is which you c In your Articles delivered to D. W. to be answered And A. C. p. 52. affirme That a
others And Miracles are not sufficient alone to prove it unlesse both They and the Revelation too agree with the Rule of Scripture which is now an unalterable Rule by b Gal. 1. 8. man or Angell To all this A. C. sayes nothing save that I seeme not to admit of an infallible Impulsion of a private Spirit ex parte subjecti A. C. p. 52. without any infallible Reason and that sufficiently applied ex parte objecti which if I did admit would open a gap to all Enthusiasmes and dreames of fanaticall men Now for this yet I thank him For I do not onely seeme not to admit but I doe most clearely reject this phrensie in the words going before 4. The last way which gives c Utitur tamâ—… sacra Doctrina Ratione Humanâ non quidem ad probandum Fidem ipsam sed ad manifest andum aliqua alia quae traduntur in hac Doctrina Tho. p. 1. q. 1. A. 8. ad 2. Passibus rationis novus homo tendit in Deum S. Aug. de vera Relig. c. 26. Passibus veruÌ„ est sed nec aequis nec solis Nam Invisibilia Dei altiori modo quantum ad plura pâ—…rcipitg Fides quà m Ratio naturalis ex Creaturis in Deum procedens Tho. 2. 2. q. 2. A. 3. ad 3. Reason leave to come in and prove what it can may not justly be denied by any reasonable man For though Reason without Grace cannot see the way to Heaven nor believe this Booke in which God hath written the way yet Grace is never placed but in a reasonable creature and proves by the very seat which it hath taken up that the end it hath is to be spirituall eye-water to make Reason see what by †Animalis homo non percipit 1. Cor. 2. 14. Nature onely it cannot but never to blemish Reason in that which it can comprehend Now the use of Reason is very generall and man do what he can is still apt to search and seeke for a Reason why he will believe though after he once believes his Faith growes d Quia scientiae certitudinem habent ox naturali lumine Rationis humanae quae potest errare Theologia autem quae docet Objectum Notitiam Fidei sicut Fidem ipsam certitudinem habet ex lumine Divinae scientiae quae decipi non potest Tho. p. 1. q. 1. A. 5. c. Vt ipsà fide valentiores facti quod credimus intelligere mereamur S. Aug. cont Ep. Manichaei dictam Fundamentum c. 14. Hoc autem it a intelligendum est ut scientia certior sit Certitudine Evidentiae Fides verò certior Firmitate Adhaesionis Majus lumen in Scientia majus Robur in Fide Et hoc quia in Fide ad Fidem Actus imperatus Voluntatis concurrit Credere enim est Actus Intellectus Vero assentiontis productus ex Voluntatis Imperio Biel. in 3. Sent. d. 23. q. 2. A. 1. Unde Tho. Intellectus Credentis determinatur ad Unum non per Rationem sed per Voluntatem ideo Assensus hic accipitur pro Actu Intellectus secundum quod à Voluntate determinatur ad Vnum 2. 2. q. 2. A. 1. ad 3. stronger than either his Reason or his Knowledge and great reason for this because it goes higher and so upon a safer Principle than either of the other can in this life In this Particular the Bookes called the Scripture are commonly and constantly reputed to bee the Word of God and so infallible Verity to the least point of them Doth any man doubt this The world cannot keepe him from going to weigh it at the Ballance of Reason whether it bee the Word of God or not To the same Weights hee brings the Tradition of the Church the inward motives in Scripture it selfe all Testimonies within which seeme to beare witnesse to it and in all this there is no harme the danger is when a man will use no other Scale but Reason or preferre Reason before any other Scale For the Word of God and the Booke containing it refuse not to bee weighed by a Si vobis rationi veritati consentanca videntur in pretio habete c. de mysteriis Religionis Iustin. Mart. Apol. 2. Igitur si fuit dispositio Rationis c. Tertull. L de Carne Christi c. 18. Rationabile est credere Deum esse Autorem Scripturae Henr. a Gand. Sum To. 1. Ar. 9. q. 3. Reason But the Scale is not large enough to containe nor the Weights to measure out the true vertue and full force of either Reason then can give no supernaturall ground into which a man may resolve his Faith That Scripture is the Word of God infallibly yet Reason can go so high as it can prove that Christian Religion which rests upon the Authority of this Booke stands upon surer grounds of Nature Reason common Equity and Iustice than any thing in the World which any Infidell or meere Naturalist hath done doth or can adhere unto against it in that which he makes accounts or assumes as Religion to himselfe The Ancient Fathers relied upon the Scriptures no Christians more and having to doe with Philosophers men very well seene in all the subtilties which Naturall Reason could teach or learne They were often put to it and did as often make it good That they had sufficient warrant to relie so much as They did upon Scripture In all which Disputes because they were to deale with Infidels they did labour to make good the Authority of the Booke of God by such Arguments as unbelievers themselves could not but thinke reasonable if they weighed them with indifferency For though I set the Mysteries of Faith above Reason which is their proper place yet I would have no man thinke They contradict Reason or the Principles thereof No sure For Reason by her own light can discover how firmely the Principles of Religion are true but all the Light shee hath will never bee able to finde them false Nor may any man thinke that the Principles of Religion even this That Scriptures are the Word of God are so indifferent to a Naturall eye that it may with as just cause leane to one part of the Contradiction as to the other For though this Truth That Scripture is the Word of God is not so Demonstratively evident a priori as to enforce Assent yet it is strengthen'd so abundantly with probable Arguments both from the Light of Nature it selfe and Humane Testimony that he must be very wilfull and selfe-conceited that shall dare to suspect it Nay yet farther a Hook L. 3. §. 8. Si Plato ipse viveret me interrogantem non aspernaretur c. S. Aug. de verá Relig. c. 3. Vide amus quatenus Ratio potest progredi á visibilibus ad invisibilia c. Ibid. c. 29. It is not altogether impossible to proove it even by Reason a Truth infallible or else to make them deny some
apparent Principle of their own For Example It is an apparent Principle and with them That God or the Absolute prime Agent cannot be forced out of any Possession For if He could be forced by another Greater He were neither Prince nor Absolute nor b Si vim spectes Deus Valentissimus est Arist. de Mundo cap. 7. Domini Moderatores omniuÌ„ Cic. 2. de Leg. God in their owne Theologie Now they must grant That that God and Christ which the Scripture teaches and we believe is the only true God and no other with him and so deny the Deity which they worshipped or else deny their owne Principle about the Deity That God cannot be commanded and forced out of possession For c Ipse Saturnus Serapis Jupiter quicquid Daemonum colitis victi dolore quòd sunt cloquuntur Nec utique in turpitudinem sui uonnullis praesertim vestrorum assistentibus mentiuntur Ipsis testibus esse eos Daemones de se verum confitentibus credite Adjurati enim per Deum verum solùm inviti c. Arnob 8. contra Gent Or Minutius Foelix as is now thought their Gods Saturne and Serapis and Iupiter himselfe have beene adjured by the Name of the true and only God and have beene forced out of the bodies they possessed and confessed themselves to be foule and seduceing Divels And their Confession was to be supposed true in poynt of Reason For they that were adored as Gods would never belie themselves into Divels to their owne reproach especially in the presence of them that worshipped them were they not forced This many of the Vnbelievers saw therefore they could not in very force of Reason but they must either deny their God or deny their Principle in Nature Their long Custome would not forsake their God and their Reason could not forget their Principle If Reason therefore might judge among them they could not worship any thing that was under Command And if it be reasonable to doe and believe this then why not reasonable also to believe That Scripture is his Word given to teach himselfe and Christ since there they find Christ d S. Mat. 12 22 doing that and e S. Mat. 16. 17 giving power to doe it after which themselves saw executed upon their Divell-Gods Besides whereas all other written Lawes have scarce had the honour to be duly observed or constantly allowed worthy approbation in the Particular places where they have beene established for Lawes this Law of Christ and this Canon of Scripture the container of it is or hath beene received in almost * Si Libri quoquo modo se habent sancti tamen Divinarum rernm pleni prope totius generis humani confessione diffamantur c. S. Aug. de Vtil Cred c. 7. Scriptura summà dispositione Providentiae super omnes omnium Gentium Literas omnia sibi genera ingeniorum humanorum Divinâ—… Excellens Authoritate subjecit S. Aug. 11. de Civit. Dei c. 1. At in omni orbe torrarum in omni Graciâ universis Nationibus innumerisunt immensi qui relictis Patriis Legibus c. ad observantiam Mosis Christi c. Origen 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cap. 1. all Nations under Heaven And wheresoevet it hath beene received it hath been both approved for Vnchangeable good and believed for Infallible verity This perswasion could not have beene wrought in men of all sorts but by working upon their Reason unlesse wee shall thinke all the VVorld unreasonable that received it And certainly God did not give this admirable faculty of Reasoning to the soule of man for any cause more prime then this to discover or to Iudge and allow within the Sphere of its owne Activity and not presuming farther of the way to Himselfe when and howsoever it should bee discovered One great thing that troubled Rationall men was that which stumbled the Manichee an Heresie it was but more then halfe Pagan namely That somewhat must be believed before much could be knowne Wise men use not to believe but what they know And the Manichcee * Irâ—…idere in Catholicae Fidei disciplinâ quod juberentur homines credere non autem c. S. Aug. 1. Retrac c. 14. scorned the Orthodox Christian as light of Beliefe promising to leade no Disciple after him but upon evident knowledge This stumbles many but yet the Principle That somewhat must be believed before much can be knowne stands firme in Reason still For if in all Sciences there be some Principles which cannot be prooved if Reason be able to see this and confesse it if almost all Artists have granted it if in the Mathematicks where are the Exactest Demonstrations there be Quaedam postulata some things to be first Demanded and granted be fore the Demonstration can proceed Who can justly deny that to Divinity A Science of the Highest Object God Himselfe which he easily and reasonably grants to inferiour Sciences which are more within his reach And as all Sciences suppose some Principles without prooving so have they almost all some Text some Authority upon which they rely in some measure and it is Reason they should For though these Sciences make not their Texts Infallible as Divinity doth yet full consent and prudent Examination and long continuance have wonne reputation to them and setled reputation upon them very deservedly And were these Texts more void of Truth then they are yet it were fit and reasonable to uphold their credit that Novices and young Beginners in a Science which are not able to worke strongly upon Reason nor Reason upon them may have Authority to believe till they can learne to Conclude from Principles and so to know Is this also reasonable in other Sciences and shall it not be so in Theologie to have a Text a Scripture a Rule which Novices may be taught first to believe that so they may after come to the knowledge of those things which out of this rich Principle and * And therefore S. Aug. 2. de Doct. Christ. c. 8. would have men make themselves perfect in reading the Letter of the Scripture even before they understood it Eas not as habeat etsi nondum intellectu tamen lectione duntaxat No question but to make them ready against they understood it And as Schoole-Masters make their Schollers conne their Grammer-rules by heart that they may be ready for their use when they better understand them Treasure are Deduceable I yet see not how right Reason can deny these Grounds and if it cannot then a meere Naturall man may be thus farre convinced That the Text of God is a very Creditle Text. Well these are the foure wayes by most of which men offer to proove the Scripture to bee the Word of God as by a Divine and Infallible Warrant And it seemes no one of these doth it alone The Tradition of the present Church is too weake because that is not absolutely Divine The Light which
Scripture is first yeelded unto For all other necessary Poynts of Divinity may by undenyable Discourse bee inferred out of Scripture it selfe once admitted but this concerning the Authority of Scripture not possibly But must either be prooved by Revelation which is not now to bee expected Or presupposed and granted as manifest in it selfe like the Principles of natâ—…rall knowledge which Reasm alone will never Grant Or by Tradition of the Church both Prime and Present with all other Ratinall Helpes preceding or accompanying the internall Light in Scripture it selfe which though it give Light enough for Faith to believe yet Light enough it gives not to bee a convincing Reason and proofe for knowledge And this is it which makes the very entrance into Divinity inaccessible to those men who standing high in the Opinion of their owne wisdome will believe nothing but that which is irrefragably prooved from Rationall Principles For as Christ requires a Deniall of a mans selfe that he may be able to follow him S. Luke 9 So as great a part as any of S. Luke 9. 23. this Denyall of his Whole-selfe for so it must bee is the denyall of his Vnderstanding and the composing of the unquiet search of this Grand Inquisitor into the Secrets of Him that made it and the over-ruleing the doubtfulnesse of it by the fervency of the a Intellectus Credentis determinatur per Voluntatem non per Rationem Tho. 2. 2. q. 2. A. 1. ad tertium And what power the Will hath in Case of mens Believing or not Believing is manifest Jer. 44. But this is spoken of the Will compared with the Vnderstandinâ—… onely leaving the Operations of Grace free over Both. Will. Seventhly That the knowledge of the Supreme Pun. 7. Cause of all which is God is most remote and the most difficult thing Reason can have to do with The Quod sit That there is a God b Communis enim sententia est Patrum Theologorum aliorum demonstrari posse naturali ratione Deum esse Sed à postâ—…riori per effectus Sic Tho. p. 1. q. 2. A. 2. Et Damasâ—… L. 1. Orth. Fid. c. 3. Almain in 3. sent D. 24 q. 1. But what may be demonstrated by naturall reason by natural light may the same be known And so the Apostle himselfe Rom. 1. 20. Invisibilia Dei à Creatur â mundi per ca quae facta sunt intellecta conspiciuntur And so Calvin most clearely L. 1. Inst c. 5. §. 1. Aperire Oculos nequeunt quin aspicere cum coguntur though Bellarmine would needes be girding at him L. 4. de Grat. Lib. Arbit c 2. Videtur autem Ratio iis quae apparent attestari Omnes enim homines de Diis ut ille loquitur habent existimationem Arist. L. 1. de Coelo T. 22. bleare-eyed Reason can see But the c Damasc. L. 1. Ortho. Fid. c. 4. Quid sit what that God is is infinitely beyond all the fathoms of Reason He is a Light indeed but such as no mans Reason can come at for the Brightnes d 1 Tim. 6. 16. Et ne Vâ—…stigium sic accedendi 〈◊〉 S. Aug. nisi augeas imaginari ne cogitationis lucem soliâ—… innumerabiliter vel quid aliud c. L. 8 de Tâ—…in c. 2 Solus modus accedendi Preces sunt Boet. de consolâ—… Philos. L. 5. prosa 3. 1 Tim. 6. If any thing therefore bee attainable in this kinde it must bee by c Prater Scientias Philosophicas necesse est ut ponatur alia Scientia 〈◊〉 revelata de iis quae hominis captum 〈◊〉 Tho. p. 1. q. 1 A. 1. Revelation And that must bee from Himselfe for none can Reveale but f And therefore Bid is exâ—…sse That God could not reveale any thing that is to come nisi illud esset a Deo praesâ—…um sâ—…u praevisum i. e. unlesse God did fully comprehend that which He doth reveale Biel in 3. sent D. 239. 2. A. 1. hee that Comprehends And g Nullus Intellectus Creatus videndo Deum potest cogno 〈◊〉 omâ—…ia quae Deus sacit vel potest saccre Hoc enim esset Comprehendere ejus virtutem c. Tho. p. 1. q. 12. A. 8. C. Ad Argumentum Quod Deus ut Speculum est Et quod Omnia quae sieri possunt in co resplendent Respondet Thom. Quod non est necessarium quod videns speculum omnia in speculo videat nisi speculum visu suo comprâ—…hendat Tho. p. 1. q. 12. A. 8. a 12. Now no man can comprehend this Glasse which is God Himselfe none doth or can comprehend God but Himselfe And when he doth Reveale yet He is no farther discernable then h Deus enim est Speculum voluntarium revelans quae quod vult alicui beato non est Speculum naturalitèr repraesentans omnia Biel. Suppl in 4. Sent. D. 49. q. 3. propos 3. Himself pleases Now since i For if Reason well put to its search did not finde this out how came Arist. to assirme this by rationa l disquisition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Restat ut mens sola extrinsecùs accedat eaque sola divina sit nibil enim cum ejus Actione communicat Actio corporalis Aâ—…st l. 2. de gen Anim. c. 3. This cannot be spoken of the Soule were it mortall And therefore I must needs be of Paulus Benius his opinion who sayes plainly and proves it too Turpiâ—…r assixam à quibâ—…sdam Aristoteli Mortalitatis Animae Opinionem Benius in Timaeum Platonis Decad. 2ae L. 3. Reason teaches that the Soule of man is immortal and k For it Reason did not dictate this also whence is it that Aristotle disputes of the way and meanes of attaining it L. 1. Moral c. 9. And takes on him to proove That Felicity is rather an Honourable then a Commendable thing c. 12. And after all this he addes Deo 〈◊〉 tota vita est hominibus autem catenus quatenus similitudo quaedam ejusmodi Operationis ipsis in est Arist. l. 10. Moral c. 8. capeable of Felicity And since that Felicity consists in the Contemplation of the highest Cause w ch againe is God himselfe And since Christ therin Confirmes that Dictate that mans eternal Happines is to know God and Him whom he hath sent S. k S. Iohn 17. 3. Ultima Beatitudo hominis consistit in quadam supernaturali visione Dei Ad hanc autem visiâ—…m Homo pertingere non potest nisi per modum Addisâ—…is à Deo Doctore Omnis qui audit a Patre didicit S. Iohn 6. 45. Thom. 2. 2. q. 2. A. 3. in c. Ioh. 17. And since nothing can put us into the way of attaining to that Contemplation but some Revelation of Himselfe and of the way to himselfe I say since all this is so It cannot reasonably be thought by any prudent man that the All-wise God should create man with a Desire of
writ downe my words in fresh memory and upon speciall notice taken of the Passage and that I did say either Iâ—…dem or aequipollentibus verbis either in these or equivalent words That the Protestants did make the Râ—…nt or Division from the Romane Church What did the Iesuite set downe my words in fresh memory and upon speciall notice taken and were they so few as these The Protestants did make the Schisme and yet was his memory so short that he cannot tell whether I uttered this iisdem or aequipollentibus verbis Well I would A. C. and his Fellowes would leave this Art of theirs and in Conferences which * A. C. p. 57. they are so ready to call for impose no more upon other men then they utter And you may observe too that after all this full Assertion that I spake this iisdem or aequipollentibus verbis A. C. concludes thus The Iesuite tooke speciall notice in fresh memory and is sure he related at A. C. p. 55. least in sense just as it was uttâ—…red What 's this At least in sense jâ—…st as it was uttered Do not these two Enterfeire and shew the Iesuite to be upon his shuffling pace For if it were just as it was uttered then it was in the very forme of words too not in sense onely And if it were but At least in sense then when A. C. hath made the most of it it was not just as 't was uttered Besides at least in sense doth not tell us in whose sense it was For if A. C. meane the Iesuite's sense of it he may make what sense he pleases of his owne words but he must impose no sense of his upon my words But as he must leave my words to my selfe so when my words are uttered or written he must leave their sense either to me or to that genuine Construction which an Ingenuous Reader can make of them And what my words of Grant were I have before expressed and their sense too Not with my selfe That 's the next For A. C. sayes 't is truth and that the world knowes it that the A. C. p. 56. Protestants did depart from the Church of Rome and got the name of Protestants by protesting against it No A. C. by your leave this is not truth neither and therefore I had reason to be angry with my selfe had I granted it For first the Protestants did not depart For departure is voluntary so was not theirs I say not theirs taking their whole Body and Cause together For that some among them were peevish and some ignorantly zealous is neither to be doubted nor is there Danger in confessing it Your Body is not so perfect I wot well but that many amongst you are as pettish and as ignorantly zealous as any of Ours You must not suffer for these nor We for those nor should the Church of Christ for either Next the Protestants did not get that Name by Protesting against the Church of Rome but by Protesting and that when nothing else would serve †Conventus suit Ordinum Imperii Spirae Ibi Decretum factum est ut Edictum Wormatiense observaretur contra Novatores sic appellare placuit ut omnia in integrum restituantur sic nulla omnino Reformatio Contra hoc Edictum solennis fuit Protestatio Aprilis 16. An. Ch. 1529. Et hinc ortum pervulgatum illud Protestantium nomen Se. Calvis Chron. ad An. 1529. Thâ—…s Protestation therefore was not simply against the Romane Church but against the Edict which was for the restoring of all things to their former estate without any Râ—…formation against her Errours Superstitions Do you but remove them from the Church of Rome and our Protestation is ended and the Separation too Nor is Protestation it selfe such an unheard of thing in the very heart of Religion For the Sacraments both of the Old and New Testament are called by your owne Schoole Visible Signes protesting the Faith Now if the Sacraments be Protestantia Signes Protesting why may not men also and without all offence be called Protestants since by receiving the true Sacraments and by refusing them which are corrupted they doe but Protest the sincerity of their Faith against that Doctrinall Corruption which hath invaded the great Sacrament of the Eucharist and other Parts of Religion Especially since they are men a Quibus homo fidem suam protestaretur Tho. p. 3. q. 61. A. 3. 4. C. which must protest their Faith by these visible Signes and Sacraments But A. C. goes on and will needs have it that the Protestants were the Cause of the Schisme For A. C. p. 56. saith he though the Church of Rome did thrust them from her by Excommunication yet they had first divided themselves by obstinate holding and teaching opinions contrary to the Romane Faith and Practice of the Church which to do S. Bernard thinks is Pride and S. Augustine Madnesse So then in his Opinion First Excommunication on their Part was not the Prime Cause of this Division but the holding and teaching of contrary Opinions Why but then in my Opinion That holding and teaching was not the Prime Cause neither but the Corruptions and Superstitions of Rome which forced many men to hold and teach the contrary So the Prime Cause was theirs still Secondly A. C s. words are very considerable For he charges the Protestants to be the Authours of the Schisme for obstinate holding and teaching Contrary Opinions To what I pray Why to the b I know Bellarm. quotes S. Ierome Sciro Romanam Fidem c. suprà §. 3. Nu. 9. But there S. Ierome doth not call it Fidem Romanam as if Fides Romana and Fides Catholica were convertible but he speakes of it in the Concrete Romana Fides i. Romanorum Fides qua laudata suit ab Apostolo c. Ro. 1. 8. S. Hieron Apol. 3. cont Ruffin That is that Faith which was then at Rome when S. Paul commended it But the Apostles commending of it in the Romanes at one time passes no deed of Assurance that it shall continue worthy of Commendations among the Romans through all tâ—…mes Romane Faith To the Romane Faith It was wont to be the Christian Faith to which contrary Opinions were so dangerous to the Maintainers But all 's Romane now with A. C. and the Iesuite And then to countenance the Businesse S. Bernard and S. Augustine are brought in whereas neither of them speak of the Romane and S. Bernard perhaps neither of the Catholike nor the Romane but of a Particular Church or Congregation Or if he speake of the Catholike of the Romane certainly he doth not His words are Quae major superbia c. What greater pride then that one man should preferre his judgement before the whole Congregation of all the Christian Churches in the world So A. C. as out of Saint Bernard †Quae major superbia quà m ut unus homo toti Congregationi judicium
Catholikes utterly condemne it And well they may For no man can affirme it but he shall make himselfe a scorne to all the Learned Men of Christendome whose Iudgements are not Captivated by Romane Power And for my owne part I am cleare of a Et mirum est quod Adversarii non asserant cum Impiccabilem Et credo assercrent nisi quotidiana Summorum PontificuÌ„ Opera ad credendnÌ„ Oppositum compellerent Almain de Author Eccles cap. 10. sine Jacobus Almain's Opinion And a great wonder it is to me That they which affirme the Pope cannot erre do not affirme likewise that he cannot sinne And I verily believe they would be bold enough to affirme it did not the daily Workes of the Popes compell them to believe the Contrary For very many of them have led lives quite Contrary to the Gospell of Christ. Nay such lives as no Epicurean Monster storied out to the world hath out-gone them in sensuality or other grosse Impiety if their owne Historians be true Take your choice of b Platina Onuphrius in Vitis eorum John the thirteenth about the yeare 966. Or of Sylvester the second about the yeare 999. Or John the eighteenth about the yeare 1003. Or Benedict the ninth about the yeare 1033. Or Boniface the eighth about the yeare 1294 Or Alexander the sixt about the yeare 1492. And yet these and their like must be infallible in their Dictates and Conclusions of Faith Do your owne believe it Surely no. For c Non enim credo aliquem esse adeo impudentem Papae Assentatorem ut ci tribuere hoc velit ut nec errare nec in Interpretatione SS Literarum ballucinari possit Alphons à Castro I. 1. Advers Hares c. 4. And the Glosse confesses it plainely in C. 24. q. 〈◊〉 C. A recta ergo Alphonsus à Castro tels us plainly That he doth not believe that any man can be so grosse and impudent a flatterer of the Pope as to attribute this unto him that he can neither erre nor mistake in expounding the Holy Scripture This comes home And therefore it may well be thought it hath taken a shrewd Purge For these words are Expresse in the Edition at Paris 1534. But they are not to be found in that at Colen 1539. Nor in that at Antwerp 1556. Nor in that at Paris 1571. a Parding his Detection of Errours against Iewell p. 64. Harding sayes indeed Alphonsus left it out of himselfe in the following Editions Well First Harding sayes this but proves it not so I may chuse whether I will believe him or no. Secondly bee it so that hee did that cannot helpe their Cause a whit For say hee did dislike the sharpnesse of the Phrase or ought els in this speech yet he alter'd not his judgment of the thing For in all these later Editions he speakes as home if not more then in the first and sayes Expresly * Coelestinus crravit non solùm ut privata persona sed ut Papa c. Alph. à Castro L. 1. adv Haeres c. 4. Ibid. That the Pope may erre not onely as a private person but as Pope And in difficult Cases he adds That the Pope ought to Consult Viros doctos men of Learning And this also was the Opinion of the Ancient Church of Christ concerning the Pope and his Infallibility For thus Liberius and he a Pope himselfe writes to Athanasius Brother Athanasius if you thinke in the presence of God and Christ as I doe I pray subscribe this Confession which is thought to be the true Faith of the Holy Catholike and Apostolike Church that we may be the more certaine that you thinke concerning the Faith as We doe †〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Liberius in Epist. ad Athanas. apud Athanas To. 1. p. 42. Edit Parisuns 1608. Et Edit Paris Latino-Grac 1627. Vt ego etiam persuasus sim inhaesitantèr That I also may be perswaded without all doubting of those things which you shall be pleased to Command me Now I would faine know if the Pope at that time were or did thinke himselfe Infallible how he should possibly be more certainly perswaded of any Truth belonging to the Faith by Athanasius his Concurring in judgment with him For nothing can make Infallibility more certaine then it is At least not the Concurring Iudgement that is Fallible as S. Athanasius was Beside the Pope Complemented exceeding low that would submit his unerring Iudgement to bee Commanded by Athanasius who hee well knew could Erre Againe in the Case of Easter which made too great a noyse in the Church of old a Post Aegyptiorum supputationes Alexandrinae Ecclesiae definitionem Episcopi quoque Romanae Ecclesiae per Literas plerique meam adhuc expectant sententiam quid existimem de die Paschae S. Ambros. L. 10. Epist. 83. Very many men called for S. Ambrose his Iudgement in that Point even after the Definition of the Church of Alexandria and the Bishop of Rome And this I presume they would not have done had they then conceived either the Pope or his Church Infallible And thus it continued downe till Lyra's time For he sayes expresly b Ex hoc patot quòd Ecclesia non consistit in hominibus ratione Potestatis vel Dignitatis Ecclesiasticae vel sacularis quid multi Principes summi Pontifices alii inferiores inventi sunt Apostat âsse à Fide c. Lyra in S. Matth. 16. 18. That many Popes as well as other Inferiours have not onely erred but even quite Apostatized from the Faith And yet now nothing but Infallibility will serve their turnes And sometimes they have not onely taken upon them to bee Infallible in Cathedrâ in their Chaire of Decision but also to Prophecie Infallibly out of the Scripture But Propheticall Scripture such as the Revelation is was too dangerous for men to meddle with which would bee carefull of their Credit in not Erring For it fell out in the time of Innocent the third and Honorius the third as c Ram. Pontifices ex S. Historiâ 〈◊〉 Qua mendaciâ—…sima esse exitus prob avâ—… Aventm Annaâ—… Boicrum L. 7. p. 529. Edit Basil. 1580. Aventine tels us That the then Popes assured the world that Destruction was at hand to Saracens Turks and Mahumetans which the Event shewed were notorious untruths And 't is remarkeable which happened Anno 1179. For then in a Councell held at Rome Pope Baron An. 1179. N. 13. Alexander the third Condemned Peter Lombard of Heresie And he lay under that Damnation for thirty and sixe yeares till Innocent the third restored him and condemned his Accusers Now Peter Lombard was then Condemned for some thing which hee had written about the humane Nature of our Saviour Christ. So here was a great Mystery of the Faith in hand something about the Incarnation And the Pope was in Cathedrâ and that in a Councell of three hundred Archbishops
Contrary to his Conscience Presupposing it granted that the Church of Rome erres only in not Fundamentals and such Errours not Damnable which is absolutely and clearly denyed by D. White To this A. C. sayes nothing but that D. VVhite did not give this Answer A. C. p. 67. at the Conference I was not present at the Conference betweene them so to that I can say nothing as a witnesse But I thinke all that knew D. White will believe his affirmation as soone as the Iesuites To say no more And whereas A. C. referres to the Relation of the Conference betweene D. White and M. Fisher A. C. p. 67. most true it is there * A. C. in his relation of that Conference p. 26. D. VVhite is charged to have made that Answer twise But all this rests upon the credit of A. C. only For †For so 't is said in the Title-page by A. C. he is said to have made that Relation too as well as this And against his Credit I must engage D. Whites who hath avowed another Answer as a §. 37. Nu. 1. NUM 8. before is set downe And since A. C. relates to that Conference which it seemes hee makes some good account of I shall here once for all take occasion to assure the Reader That most of the Points of Moment in that Conference with D. VVhite are repeated againe and againe and urged in this Conference or the Relation of A. C. and are here answered by me For instance In the Relation of the first Conference the Iesuite takes on him to prove 1 the Vnwritten VVord of God out of 2. Thes. 2. pag. 15. And so he doth in the Relation of this Conference with me pag. 50. In the first he stands upon it That the Protestants 2 upon their Principles cannot hold that all Fundamentall points of Faith are contained in the Creed pag. 19. And so he doth in this pag. 46. In the first he would faine through 3 M. Roger's sides wound the Church of England as if shee were unsetled in the Article of Christ's Descent into Hell pag 21 And he endeavours the same in this pag. 46. In the first he is very earnest to prove That the Schisme was made by the Protestants pag. 23. And he is as earnest for 4 it in this pag. 55. In the first he layes it for a Ground That Corruption of Manners is no just Cause of separation 5 from Faith or Church pag. 24. And the same Ground he layes in this pag. 55. In the first he will have it That the 6 Holy Ghost gives continuall and Infallible Assistance to the Church pag. 24. And just so will he have it in this p 53. In the first he makes much adoe about the Errig of the 7 Greeke Church page 28. And as much makes he in this page 44. In the first he makes a great noyse about the 8 place in S. Augustine Ferendus est disputator errans c. page 18. and 24. And so doth hee here also page 45. In the first he would make his Proselytes believe That 9 he and his Cause have mighty advantage by that Sentence of S. Bernard 'T is intolerable Pride And that of S. Augustine 'T is insolent madnesse to oppose the Doctrine or Practice of the Catholike Church page 25. And twise he is at the same Art in this page 56. and. 73. In the first he 10 tels us That * Postquam discessionem a toto mundo facere coacti sumus Calv. Epist. 141. Calvin confesses That in the Reformation there was a Departure from the whole world page 25. And though I conceive Calvine spake this but of the Roman world and of no Uoluntary but a forced Departure and wrote this to Melancthon to worke Vnity among the Reformers not any way to blast the Reformation Yet we must heare of it againe in this page 56. But over and above the rest one Place with his owne glosse upon 11 it pleases him extremely 'T is out of S. Athanasius his Creed That whosoever doth not hold it entire that is saith he in all Points and Inviolate that is saith hee in the true unchanged and uncorrupted sense proposed unto us by the Pastors of his Catholike Church without doubt he shall perish everlastingly This he hath almost verbatim in the first page 20. And in the Epistle of the Publisher of that Relation to the Reader under the Name of VV. I. and then againe the very same in this if not with some more disadvantage to himselfe page 70. And perhaps had I leasure to search after them more Points then these Now the Reasons which mooved mee to set downe these Particulars thus distinctly are two The One that whereas the * In the begining of the Conference set out by A. C. Iesuite affirmes that in a second Conference all the speech was about Particular matters and little or nothing about the maine and great generall Point of a Continuall Infallible Uisible Church in which that Lady required satisfaction and that therefore this third Conference was held It may hereby appeare that the most materiall both Points and Proofes are upon the matter the very same in all the three Conferences though little bee related of the second Conference by A. C. as appeares in the Preface of the Publisher VV. I. to the Reader So this tends to nothing but Ostentation and shew The Other is that Whereas these men boast so much of their Cause and their Ability to defend it It cannot but appeare by this and their handling of other Points in Divinity that they labour indeed but no otherwise then like an Horse in a Mill round about in the same Circle no farther at night then at noone The same thing over and over againe from Tu es Petrus to Pasce oves from thou art Peter to Do thou feed my Sheepe And backe againe the same way F. The Lady asked Whether she might be saved in the Protestant Faith Vpon my soule said the Bishop you may Vpon my soule said I there is but one saving Faith and that is the Romane B. So it seems I was confident for the Faith professed § 38 in the Church of England els I would not have taken the salvation of another upon my soule And sure I had reason of this my Confidence For to believe the Scripture and the Creeds to believe these in the sense of the Ancient Primitive Church To receive the foure great Generall Councels so much magnified by Antiquity To believe all Points of Doctrine generally received as Fundamentall in the Church of Christ is a Faith in which to live and die cannot but give salvation And therefore I went upon a sure ground in the adventure of my soule upon that Faith Besides in all the Points of Doctrine that are contioverted betweene us I would faine see any one Point maintained by the Church of England that can be proved
to depart from the Foundation You have many dangerous Errours about the very Foundation in that which you call the Romane Faith But there I leave you to looke to your owne soule and theirs whom you seduce Yet this is true too That there is but one saving Faith But then every thing which you call De Fide of the Faith because some Councell or other hath defined it is not such a Breach from that One saving Faith as that he which expresly believes it not nay as that he which believes the Contrary is excluded from Salvation so his a S. 22. Nu. 5. Disobedience there while offer no violence to the Peace of the Church nor the Charity which ought to be among Christians And b Multa sunt de side quae non sunt absolutè necessaria as Salutem Bellar. L. 3. de Eccles. Milit. c. 14. §. Quinto si esset Bellarmine is forced to grant this There are many Things de Fide which are not absolutely necessary to salvation c Wald. Doct. Fid. l. 2. Ar. 2. § 23. Therefore there is a Latitude in the Faith especially in reference to different mens salvation To set d §. 38. Nu. 8. Bounds to this and strictly to define it for particular men Just thus farre you must believe in every Particular or incurre Damnation is no worke for my Pen. These two things I am sure of One That your peremptory establishing of so many things that are remote Deductions from the Foundation to bee believed as Matters of Faith necessary to Salvation hath with other Errours lost the Peace and Unity of the Church for which you will one day Answer And the other That you of Rome are gone farther from the Foundation of this One saving Faith then can ever be proved we of the Church of England have done But here A. C. bestirres himselfe finding that he is come upon the Point which is indeed most considerable A. C. p. 68. And first hee answers That it is * Pope Pelagius the second thought it was sufficient For when the Bishops of Istria deserted his Communion in Causa trium Capitulorum He first gives them an Account of his Faith that he embraced that Faith which the Apostles had delivered and the foure Synods explicated And then he adds Ubi ergo de Fidei firmitate nulla vobis poterit quastio vel suspicis generari c. Concil To. 4. p. 473. Edit Paris So then that Pope thought there could be no question made or suspition had of any mans faith that professed that Faith which the Apostles delivered as 't is explicated by those Great Councels And yet now with A. C. 't is not sufficient Or els he holds the Faith of our Lord Iesus Christ in such râ—…spect of persons contrary to the Apostles Rule S. James 2. 12. as that profession of it which was sufficient for Pope Pelagius shall not be sufficient for the poore Protestants not sufficient to beget a Confidence in this Case to say wee believe the Scriptures and the Creeds in the same sense which the Ancient Primitive Church believed them c. Most true if we onely say and do not believe And let them which believe not while they say they doe looke to it on all sides for on all sides I doubt not but such there are But if we doe say it you are bound in Charity to believe us unlesse you can prove the Contrary For I know no other proofe to men of any Point of Faith but Confession of it and Subscription to it And for these particulars we have made the one and done the other So 't is no bare saying but you have all the proofe that can be had or that ever any Church required For how farre that Beliefe or any other sinkes into a man's heart is for none to judge but God Next A. C Answers That if to say this be a sufficient Cause of Confidence he marvels why I make such A. C. p. 68. difficulty to bee Confident of the Salvation of Romane Catholikes who believe all this in a faire better manner then Protestants doe Truly to say this is not a sufficient cause but to say and believe it is And to take off A. C s. wonder why I make difficulty great difficulty of the salvation of Romane Catholikes who he sayes believe all this and in a farre better manner then Protestants doe I must be bold to tell him That Romanists are so farre from believing this in a better manner then we do that under favour they believe not part of this at all And this is most manifest For the Romanists dare not believe but as the Romane Church believes And the Romane Church at this day doth not believe the Scripture and the Creeds in the sense in the which the Ancient Primitive Church received them For the Primitive Church never interpreted Christ's descent into Hell to be no lower then Limbus Patrum Nor did it acknowledge a Purgatory in a side-part of Hell Nor did it ever interpret away halfe the Sacrament from Christ's owne Institutior which to breake * Stapl. Returne of Vntruths upon B. Iewell Art 2. Vntruth 49 fol. 44. Stapleton confesses expresly is a damnable Errour Nor make the Intention of the Priest of the Essence of Baptisme Nor believe worship due to Images Nor dreame of a Transubstantiation which the Learned of the Romane Partie dare not understand properly for a change of one substance into another for then they must grant that Christ's reall and true Body is made of the Bread and the Bread changed into it which is properly Transubstantiation Nor yet can they expresse it in a credible way as appeares by †Est totalis Conversio substantiae Panis Vini in Corpus Sanguinâ—…m Domini Bellar. L. 3. de Euchar. c. 18. §. 1. Substantiaâ—… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Transubstantiatio sicut Ecclesia appellat Greg. de Valen. To. 4 〈◊〉 q. 3. punct 3. Now you shall see what stuffe Bellarmine makes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Conversio Panis in Corpus Domini nec est Productiva nâ—… Conservatâ—… sed Adductiva Nam Corpus Domini praeexistit ante Conversionem 〈◊〉 non sub speâ—…iebus Panis Conversio igitur non facit ut Corpus Christ simplicitèr esse incipiat sed ut incipiat esse sub speciebus Panis 〈◊〉 Bellar. L. 3. de Euchar. c. 18. §. Ex his colligimus So upon the whole matter there shall be a totall Conversion of the Bread into the Body of Christ And yet there shall be no Conversion at all but a Bringing of the Body of Christ before praeexistent to be now under the Species of Bread where before it was not Now this is meerly Translocation 't is not Transubstantiation And I would have Bellarm. or any Iesuite for him shew where Conversio Adductiva is read in any good Author But when Bellar. comes to the Recognition of his workes upon this place he tels us That some excepted against him
and then in some things right and in some things wrong But The Right Church or The Holy Catholike Church it never was nor ever can be And therefore was not such before Luther and Others either left it or were thrust from it A Particular Church it was But then A. C. is not distinct enough here neither For the Church of Rome both was and was not a Right or Orthodox Church before Luther made a Breach from it For the word Ante Before may looke upon Rome and that Church a great way off or long before and then in the Prime times of it it was a most Right and Orthodox Church But it may looke also nearer home and upon the immediate times before Luther or some Ages before that And then in those times * Câ—… infiniti Abusus Schismata quoque Haereses per totum nunc Christianum Orbem invalescant Ecclesiam Dei legitimâ indigere Reformatione nemini non apertum erit Pet. de Aliaco Card. Cameracensis L. de Refor Ecclesiae And if Schismeâ—… and Heresies did then invade the whole Christian world let A. C. consider how Rome scaped free And I thinke Cameracensis was in this Propheticall For sixty yeares and more before Luther was borne and so before the great troubles which have since fallen upon all Christendome he used these words in the Booke which himselfe delivered up in the Councell of Constance Nisi celeriter fiat Reformatio aâ—…deo dicere quod licet magna sint quae videmus tamen in brevi incomparabiliter majora videbimus Et post ista tonitrua tam horrenda majora alia audienâ—…s c. Cam. l. de Refor Eccle. And it will hardly sinke into any mans judgement that so great a man as Pet. de Aliaco was in that Church should speake thus if he did not see some errors in the Doctrine of that Church as well as in Manners Nay Cassander though he lived and dyed in the Communion of the Church of Rome yet found fault with some of her Doctrines Consulta Artic. 21. 22. And Pope Iulius the third Professed at Bononia in Sacramentorum Ecclesiae ministerium innumerabiles Abusus irrepsissâ—… Espenâ—…us in Tit. 1. and yet he was one of the Bishops nay the chiefe Legat in the Councell of Trent Rome was a Corrupt and a tainted Church farre from being Right And yet both these times Before Luther made his Breach So here A. C. should have beene more distinct For the word Before includes the whole time before Luther in part of which time that Church of Rome was Right and in other part whereof it was wrong But A. C. addes yet That I suspected the Lady would inferre if once that Church were Right what hindred it now to be Since that did not depart A. C. p. 54. from the Protestant Church but the Protestant Church from it Truly I neither suspected the Inference would be made nor feare it when it is made For 't is no Newes that any Particular Church Romane as well as another may once have beene Right and afterwards wrong and in farre worse case And so it vvas in Rome after the enemy had sowed tares among the wheat †S. Mat. 13. 25. S Mat. 13 But whether these Tares were sovven vvhile their Bishops slept or vvhether * For A. C. knowes well what strange Doctrines are charged upon some Popes And all Bellarmines labour though great and full of art is not able to wash them cleane Bellarm. L. 4. dâ—… Rom. Pont. c. 8. c. Et Papas quosdam graves errores seminâsse in Ecclesia Christi luâ—…arius est Et probâ—…ur à laco Almain Opusc. de Autho. Ecclesiae c. 10. And Cassander speakes it out more plaâ—…ly Vâ—…inam Illi He speaks of the Biâ—…hops and Rectors in the Romane Church à quâ—…bus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…sset non Ipsi Superstâ—…num Auctores â—…sent â—…el 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Animis homâ—…um simpliâ—…um aliquando 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Coâ—…sulta Art 21. 〈◊〉 finem They themselves did not helpe to sovv them is too large a Disquisition for this Place So though it were once Right yet the Tares which grow thick in it are the Cause why 't is not so now And then though that Church did not depart from the Protestants Church yet if it gave great and just Cause for the Protestant Church to depart from the Errours of it while it in some Particulars departed from the Truth of Christ it comes all to one for this Particular That the Romane Church which was once right is now become wrong by embracing Superstition and Errour F. Farther he confessed That Protestants had made a Rent and Division from it B. I confesse I could here be heartily a Grave omninò crimen sed defensionem longinquam non requirit satis est enim negare sicâ—…t pro Ecclesiâ olim S. Aug. de Util. Cred. c. 5. angry but § 21 that I have resolved in handling matters of Religion to leave all gall out of my Ink For I never granted that the Romane Church either is or was the right Church 'T is too true indeed that there is a miserable Rent in the Church and I make no Question but the best men doe most bemoane it b Hanc quae respectu hominum Ecclesia dicitur observare 〈◊〉 Communionem colere debemus Calv. Inst. 4. c. 1 nor is he a Christian that would not have Vnity might he have it with Truth But I never said nor thought §. 7. that the Protestants made this Rent The Cause of the Schisme is yours for you thrust us from you because we called for Truth and Redresse of Abuses For a c Rectè scias nos secisse recedendo à vobis c. Lucif L. de Non conveniendo cum Haereticis He speakes of the Arrians and I shall not compare you with them nor give any Offence that way I shall onely draw the generall argument from it thus If the Orthodoxe did well in departing from the Arrians then the Schisme was to be imputed to the Arrians although the Orthodoxe did depart from them Otherwise if the Orthodoxe had beene guilty of the Schisme he could not have said Rectè scias nos fecisse recedendo For it cannot be that a man should do well in making a Schisme There may be therefore a necessary separation which yet incurres not the blame of Schisme And that is when Doctrines are taught contrary to the Catholike Faith Schisme must needs be theirs whose the Cause of it is The Woe runs full out of the mouth of * S. Mat. 18. 7. Christ ever against him that gives the Offence not against him that takes it ever But you have by this carriage given me just cause never to treat with you or your like but before a Iudge or a Iurie But here A. C. tels me I had no cause to be angry either with the Jesuite or my selfe Not with the Iesuite A. C. p. 55 56. for he