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A20398 A Most excellent and profitable dialogue, of the powerfull iustifying faith shewing what it is to beleeue in God, and what wonders are wrought by the power of beliefe, be it worldly or diuine, and what things do hinder beliefe : also how a man may hate himselfe, and by faith forsake himselfe, and kill the deeds of the flesh : the effect of the talke is this, that he which beleeueth in God, and in his son Iesus Christ, is able by the power of that beliefe, to mortifie his flesh, with the lusts thereof, through the Holy Ghost, and to serue God in spirit and truth / translated out of Latine by Arthur Golding. Golding, Arthur, 1536-1606. 1610 (1610) STC 6809.5; ESTC S342 24,313 58

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them In being imprisoned I passe them In death I haue often bene Of the Iewes I haue fiue times receiued fortie stripes saue one Thrice haue I bene whipped Once haue I bene stoned thrice haue I suffered shipwracke day night haue I spent in the deepe seas Often haue I iourneyed Often haue I bene in danger of Riuers of Robbers of mine owne Countrymen of strangers in the Citie in the Wildernesse on the sea and amongst false brethren Often haue I bin tired with trauelling and with watching often haue I fainted for hunger and thirst in fasting often haue I bene a cold for want of cloathes And besides all the other things which daily distresse me verily the care of all Churches lyeth vpon me Who is weakened and I am not the worse at ease for it who is offended and I am not grieued at it This is the almightie strength of faith Lewis wherewith he being armed was enabled to do al things by him which strēgthned him and if we haue the same strength then surely there is cause for vs to thinke our selues to haue the same faith if not thē let vs not beare our selues in hand that wee haue the thing which we wāt lest it befal vnto vs as it doth to that man which dreameth that he hath found a treasure and when he awaketh he hath not an halfepeny Lew. O my Fredericke my imagination that I abounded in faith is but a dreame but now being wakened by your words I sée plainly that I am quite and cleane without it as the rest of the world is For as for this effectuall power of faith I neither finde it in my selfe nor perceiue it in the world Fred. That you be faithlesse Lewis it is to be lamented but that being so you see your self to be so that is not only not to be lamēted but also to be reioyced at like as a sicknesse is it selfe to be misliked but the knowledge of the sicknesse is to bee well liked Lew. By what meane then or by what medicine may this my disease of vnbeliefe be cured Fred. By taking away the impedimēts of vnbeliefe Lew. Which are those Fred. You haue heard them of me already in my former talke Howbeit for asmuch as you haue scantly cōceiued them as things that your eares haue not heard of for our maner is not to bee ouerhasty in bearing words or things away which we haue not heard of afore I will tell you thē more plainly Giue good heed What thinke you to bee the cause why no man in matters of iustice is admitted to bee a witnesse in his owne case Lew. Because all men doe loue themselues and therefore will euer speake for themselues or at least wise neuer against themselues Fred. You say rightly And if they bee not willing to speake against themselues neither are they willing to heare any thing against themselues For the truth that is against them misliketh them lesse out of another mans mouth then out of their owne Lew. It doth so Fred. And if they be vnwilling to heare those things truly they be not willing to beleeue thē For no mā wil willingly beleeue the things which he is loath to heare of but al men do easily beleeue the things which they like of As for example If a man should say that the goods of Christians ought to be common among them whether sort would easiliest beleeue it the rich or the poore Lew. The poore Fred. Why so Lew. Because that by that match they should not lose but rather win Fred. What would the rich folke doe Lew. Hardly or not at al rather would they beleeue it because they should thereby become the poorer which thing they mislike of Fred. What if a man should deny that mens soules are deliuered out of Purgatory by Masses whether would the Clergie or the Laytie soonest beleeue it Lew. Not the Clergie because that opinion would bee a diminishing of their reuenewes Lewis What if it should bee said that vsurie were vnlawful for Christians were it possible to make those beleeue it which liue vpon vsurie and become rich by it Lew. Scarcely Fr. What if one should teach that men ought not to bee put to death for religion whether would they soonest beleeue it which are in credit with the Magistrats and are Diuines themselues and yet are persecuters of other men or at the leastwise willing to persecute them or the contrary sort Lew. The contrary sort For I know some Diuines who as long as they wanted that authority and were troubled for religiōs sake taught that men ought not to be molested for religion And yet the selfe same persons hauing gotten wealth and authority haue both taught done the contrary Fred. You see then how faith is hindered by self-selfe-loue so as men do not easily beleeue the things that are contrary to their liking Lew. I sée it plainly Fred. Let vs consider then whether the same cause bee not an impediment to our beliefe in Christ. In the doctrine of Christ are histories promises and commandements As for the histories and promises almost all men beleeue them because that in them no duty on mans behalfe is required Neither is there any controuersie among Christians whether Christ haue done the things which are reported of him in the holy Scriptures or whether he haue promised the things that are conteyned there But what is the cause that so few beleeue his commandements Lew. Do fewer folke beléeue his commandements then do beléeue his doings and promises Fred. Doubt you of that First as touching Gods commandements whereas our maisters vniuersally be wont to teach that they be not set downe to the intent we should obey them but to make vs acknowledge our infirmities what else is it then a discrediting of Gods commandements For seeing our Lord hath said that all things are possible to him that beleeueth and Paul saith he is able to doe all things through him that strgēthneth him surely that man which not onely obeyeth not Gods commandements but also beleeueth that it is vnpossible to obey them doth not beleeue the commandements aright Whereupon it followeth that looke how few folke obey the commandements so few do beleeue them Lew. But this saying which you alledge namely that all things are possible to the beléeuer séemeth to bee spoken of myracles and not obedience Fred. It is spoken generally of all the workes of faith which I spake of in alledging that place of the Epistle to the Hebrewes Through faith the Saints conquered kingdomes wrought righteousnesse c. For surely to worke righteousnes is a deed of faith Besides this if Gods wil be that mē should through faith be able to work myracles which notwithstāding are not of the necessity of their saluation much more is it his will that they shold by the same faith be able to obey his commandements seeing that without obedience a man cannot be saued and
and without such hardnesse there is no accesse to be had to that strength like as a figge or a grape cannot become sweet except it be first sowre And because I my selfe haue not yet attained the victory but do yet still sweate in the incounter of forsaking my selfe and as yet am farre off from the garland I will say no more concerning the victory that is to say concerning the thing which is vnknowne to me but yet as much as I can I will helpe you by Gods grace in the incounter if you wil be my companion Lew. Truly for my part although my selfe do shudder start backe at it yet am I carried with my spirit and mind to follow you For I sée no other way for a man to be saued but by departing out of his owne nature that hee may put vpon him the nature of Christ and by caring studying striuing and taking paines to repaire the image whereafter we were created And therefore beséeching God y t it may be to his glory 〈◊〉 mine owne saluation henceforth I yeeld my selfe into this way as a follower of Christ taking God for my guide Fred. And I thanke God for this willingnesse which he hath giuen you beseeching him to finish his worke which hee hath begun in you and to bring you to that poynt that yee may at length serue righteousnesse as ye haue serued vnrighteousnesse which thing hee will vndoubtedly do except you grieue his spirit and cast it out through your disobedience Finally of this I will warne you that you must haue a rich faith because you beleeue in him that is rich in doing good For men haue euer sinned in beleeuing vnto wardly and more niggardly of Gods gracious goodnesse then they ought to do Abraham and Sara were rebuked for laughing as though it had bene a matter to be laughed at that God promised them issue when they were both old and Sara moreouer barraine Zacharias the father of Iohn Baptist was striken dumbe for a time because hee beleeued not the Angels words We be commonly more forward in following the weake beleefe or if I may so terme it the vnbeleefe of the godly then in following their full and rich beliefe Why doe wee not rather follow those which durst beleeue all things Elizeus durst craue double the spirit of Elias which soothly was a great thing euen by the record of Elias himselfe and yet he obtained it so vnpossible is it for any faith to be so great but that Gods gracious goodnesse and power doe surmount the same All things saith he are possible to the beleeuer Againe Whatsoeuer you aske beleeue that you shall obteine it and yee shall haue it in deede Remember I say the saying of Elizeus speaking after this maner to the poore woman Borrow oyle vessels of thy neighbours yea borrow a great sort and the Lord will fill them all full Euen so Lewis let vs do our endeuour that wee may haue such a faith as may be able to receue the greatest good things and let vs be bold to beleeue that God both can and wil bring to passe that wee shall loue him alone with our whole heart soule power and strength And hee of his owne gracious goodnesse will bestowe all thinges vpon vs much more largely then we can euen thinke for his Sonne our Lord Iesus Christs sake to whom be honour glory and dominion for euer Amen FINIS 2 Thes. 1.11 Rom. 6.2.4 Prou. 15. Rom. 5.1 Gal. 5.6 He beginneth at the difficulties of obeying GODS healthful commandements The effectuall power force of beliefe The righteousnesse of the law and why it beareth that name Beliefe without obedience is dead A godly Christian wish concerning obedience Beliefe in God is most necessary to the obtaining of saluation Many things are easie to bee said which are hard to bee done The first way to the knowledge of the truth What it is to beleeue in the Father is shewed by the gathering together of certaine circumstāces How needful obedience to the Father is is shewed by examples Fleshly feare 〈…〉 How belife in God is neglected by trusting too much to these trāsitory flightfull things That Gods promises deceiue not the beleeuers Two things may let mē frō performing their promises Honors change maners as the common prouerbe saith How boūtifull God is to them that loue him Proofes or tokens of mistrust in God Abrahams faith is of necessity to saluation This as I take it is that which they call the historicall faith The signes that are peculiar to the beleeuers The force of worldly faith and how wonderfully it moueth men He proceedeth in shewing the strēgth of the worldly beleefe How great force worldly beleefe hath euen amōg some whole Nations A triall of Christian faith most worthy to be obserued Where obedience is not there is not faith The mark whereat mans saluatiō shooteth What things our forefathers attained to by their faith The fond idle beliefe of the Iewes The work fulnesse of Christian faith appeareth in charity Who they bee which haue the true Christian faith To what purpose bodily myracles are wrought The diuels that lurk within vs and what is meant by speaking with new tongues The works of such as speak with new tongs Of the true iustifying faith how mighty it is in working No man doubts but that all these things are spoken of the wicked beleeuers By an argument frō the lesser to the greater he sheweth the force of true faith Paules faith warranted by his owne record What thing held Paul occupied chiefly aboue all other things The true faith hath scarce any place in the world The impediments of faith shewed by an argument taken from the Court barre or from a case in Law An example by the vse of things in common Another example by the deliuering of soules c. The last example by the persecution for religiōs sake Selfe-loue is the hinderer of faith There is no boubt among Christians cōcerning the doings of Christ What is the cause that so few beleeue Gods commandements Not myracles but beliefe is needfull to saluation The beleeuing of Christs resurrection maketh all the rest of his sayings doings credible What is meant by not beleeuing of Christs commādements and who they be that offēd in that behalfe How the Israelites beleeued not God in that they beleeued not his cōmādemēts How the place taken out of Iohn is to be vnderstood Psalm 95.8 Selfe loue dazeleth mens eyes that they cannot see to beleeue the truth What is the cause why false Prophets do easily finde credit We must 〈…〉 hate our selues and not loue our selues All things be they else neuer so impossible are possible to the power of God How pernicious self-selfe-loue is is shewed by certaine familiar exāples Men are ●aught with pleasure as ●●shes are 〈◊〉 an an●gle a ba●t 〈◊〉 their vndoing Euery mās own flesh is a harlot of whom he warneth men to take very good heede Most wholsome counsel worthy to be followed The incōparable harmes that come of pleasure The preposterous ●re●erri●g 〈◊〉 the feare 〈◊〉 worldl●●unishnēt ●●fore the ●●are of GODS ●rath ●engeāce The cōclu●●ō gathe●ed of the ●●ings go●●g afore The knowing of many yea or of al things is no let 〈◊〉 that 〈◊〉 may serue the Diuell 〈◊〉 being 〈◊〉 natiue ●ountry ●annot bee ●orsaken without griefe to vs. Euery mā is a deadly enemy to himselfe how such an enemy is to bee dealt with The flesh the spirit are cleane cōtraries and fightful but one against another A familiar example wha● by 〈◊〉 goet● about to teach a man how to forsake himselfe That to the beleeuer all things seeme they neuer so high hard or aboue power are notwithstanding easie to bee done There is but onely one right way to the attainment of saluatiō Men must not conceiue spa●ingly and niggardly but largely 〈◊〉 aboun●antly of 〈◊〉 gra 〈…〉 dnesse We cannot aske so largely at Gods hand but that his bounty wi●● surmoun● it God will grant vs all good things for Christs ●●ke
that to obey is not a harder matter then to work myracles and yet that to obey belongeth to all beleeuers whereas to work myracles belongeth not to all as I haue shewed afore Lew. Indeede these things are true Fredericke but yet there remaineth one thing which I would faine haue opened vnto me You said euen now that all men beleeue Christs histories but not his cōmandements likewise But if they beleeued y e whole story of Christ specially his resurrection in my opinion they should beleeue all the other things also For no doubt but if they beleeued that Iesus Christ is risen from the dead in so doing they should both beleeue that he is the very sonne of God indeed and moreouer giue credit to all his sayings In which respect Iohn said These things are written to the intent yee might beléeue that Iesus is the annoynted sonne of God and that through beleeuing it yée should obtaine life by his name Fred. Whereas I deny that they beleeue his commandements I would not haue it so taken as though they beleeued not that his commanding of those things was well and as became the sonne of God to doe but that forasmuch as they beleeue not that the things which he commanded to be done are either possible or needfull to be done misconstruing them after their own fancy not according to his mind I say they beleeue them not aright For your better vnderstanding whereof I will giue you an example When God hauing brought the children of Israel out of Aegypt commanded them to enter into the land of Canaan did they beleeue that God commanded it Lew. Yea verily Or else they would neuer haue sent spies into the land of Canaan Fred. Why then did they not obey him Lew. Because they were of opinion that the Canaanites could not bee ouercome and that God had brought them out of Egypt not to conquer Canaan but to perish wretchedly in the wildernesse Fred. Then did they not beleeue Gods commandement according to Gods meaning forasmuch as his meaning was that they should haue inuaded Canaan subdued the Canaanites Lew. You say the truth Fred. Thē did they not beleeue aright Lew. No not aright Fred. Whether then are they to be called beleeuers or vnbeleeuers Lew. Truly by this reason they should be called vnbeléeuers Fred. And soothly so they be Lewis in very deede For in the very same place God calleth them vnbeleeuers in these words How long will this people spite me How long will it be ere they will beleeue me for all the miracles which I haue wrought among thē Now if these be iustly called vnbeleeuers the same reason leadeth vs to call the others vnbeleeuers and distrusters of Christs commandements forasmuch as they do no lesse misconstrue the precepts of Christ thā the Israelites did the commandements of God For Christ hath not wrought fewer miracles to vs then Moses did to them Neither did Christ command vs lesse earnestly to subdue sin then God commanded them to subdue the Canaanites Neither are we lesse spiteful distrustful towards him if we deny that sin may be subdued when as hee both commandeth vs and promiseth vs strength then they were spitefull and distrustfull towards God in denying it to be possible to ouercome the Canaanites Neither do we offend lesse against the meaning of Christ when we deny that it is either possible for vs or meant by Christ that wee should do the things which he hath commanded vs to doe then the Israelites offended against the meaning of God when they wrested it another way then his open words imported And therefore in denying them to beleeue Christs commandements I do them no wrong As touching the place of Iohn by you alledged it is to be taken as if a man should haue said at that time to the Israelites GOD hath wrought these miracles for your sakes in Aegypt to the intent you should beleeue and by beleeuing enter into the resting place of Canaan But the cause why all of them came not there was not Gods purpose but their owne hardening of their hearts against him which thing would God were not done in Christ also But we see it is so howbeit the Author of the Epistle to the Hebrews warneth vs not to do it citing this saying out of a certaine Psalme To day if ye heare his voyce harden not your hearts as your forefathers did harden theirs Therefore to returne againe to the matter Whereas these men are wont so diligently to picke out the things to beleeue which belong to the office of God to refuse the things that pertaine to the duty of man I pray you what a dealing is it Gods gracious goodnesse hath yeelded saluation to all men O how gladly is this admitted But as for that which followeth namely to teach vs to forsake vngodlinesse and worldly lusts to liue soberly righteously godlily in this world that is a seede which fewe men receiue Many beleeue that Christ hath so performed that poynt as that wee neede not to performe the same Againe that the man is blessed to whom the Lord imputeth no sinne is easily beleeued of all men but as for that which is annexed to it namely and in whose heart there is no guile that they beleeue to be impossible Likewise it is commonly vaunted with full mouth that they which are in Christ Iesus are not subiect to any condemnation for it is a very sweete saying indeed but as for this Which walke not after the flesh but after the spirit it is bitter and of very fewe beleued And to make fewe words men doe easily beleeue that they shall reape with ioy but if you tell them that they must sow with teares they put that sentence ouer vnto Christ. Hereupon it cometh to passe that the false prophets because they teach delectable things and blaze abroad Gods pleasāt promises with open mouth do easily finde credit whereas the true Prophets because they vrge men make them afraid with threats teach the truth seuerely do beare sway among very few according as Esay crieth out Lord who hath beleeued our preaching Hereby it appeareth plainly my Lewis that selfe-loue is the lot that men beleeue not the truth And if self-loue were done away they would beleeue nothing so easily as the truth as who are born vnto truth and doe by and by fall in acquaintance with it as a thing of their owne kinne if there bee no impediment to let it Therefore if you will rightly beleeue the truth that is to say God you must needes put away selfe-loue or rather conceiue a hatred towards your selfe Lew. Truly Frederike you win me to be of your mind in these things but it is no smal matter for a man to hate himself Neither do I sée how I may attaine vnto it or yet perceiue whether it bee possible for me to attaine thereto I am so farre in loue