plot the death of any Prince Wherefore let Widdrington cease by vaine words to put Secular Princes in feare and to make the Pontificall power to be odious The Pontificall power is instituted by the Sauiour of mankind for the saluation and not for the destruction of Princes These arguments doe tend to no other end then to prouoke the hatred of Princes against the Pope for otherwise Widdrington was not ignorant that Ecclesiasticall especially Pontificall lenitie doth shunne bloody punishments 12 But first whether D. Schulckenius by this his answered doth intend to acknowledge that the Pope in order to spirituall good hath authoritie to take away the liues of wicked Princes by all those waies publike or priuate by which temporall Princes haue authoritie in order to temporall good to take away the liues of their wicked and rebellious subiects which I intended by that argument to conuince in this place he speaketh doubtfully and in expresse words doth neither say I nor no yet afterwards he doth plainly enough affirme the same saying n Cap 9. ad nu 229. pag. 413. that Ecclesiasticall lenitie for as much as concerneth the punishment of death doth shunne bloody punishments not for that it doth by the law of God want power to doe the same but because it doth not beseeme the Ministers of Christ and againe It doth not belong saith he o Cap. 10. ad num 318. pag. 490. to the Ecclesiasticall Court to giue sentence of death not because the Church cannot absolutely giue this sentence but because it is not decent And the Pope himselfe might if he should iudge it expedient both giue this sentence and also grant by a dispensation that other Priests might doe the same For we haue nothing whereby it is forbidden but the positiue Ecclesiasticall law wherein the Pope by the consent of all men may dispence 13 Secondly this Doctor doth egregiously and against Christian charitie and iustice abuse my innocencie in misconstruing my good intentions which God is my witnesse are most pure and sincere For it was neuer my meaning to make the Sea Apostolike odious or dreadfull to Christian Kings and Princes but only to find out the Catholike truth plainly and sincerely in a matter of such great importance which doth so neerely concerne the supreme authoritie of all temporall Princes and the due obedience which all subiects of what religion soeuer they be doe by the law of Christ owe to them in temporall matters It is rather this Doctor and such as embrace his desperate principles who by this their false seditious scandalous and new broached damnable doctrine and vnknowne to the ancient Fathers and the primitiue Church doe seeke as much as lyeth in them to make the Sea Apostolike odious and dreadfull to all Christian Princes and subiects And if it be so easie a matter to answere my aforesaid arguments as this Doctor affirmeth why then doth he not answere them but shifteth them ouer with a let them passe as not pertaining to the purpose Is it not to the purpose that Card. Bellarmine and his followers should force vpon the Christian world the doctrine touching the Popes spirituall power to depose temporall Princes as a point of Catholike beliefe from which such absurd dangerous desperate scandalous seditious consequents and not heard of before these miserable times doe euidently follow 14 But such strang nouelties must with shufflings and shiftings be cunningly couered and must not be cleerely knowne to Soueraigne Princes and their subiects least forsooth they make the Sea Apostolike odious and dreadfull to Christian Princes As thought it were likely that Christ our Sauiour would giue to S. Peter and his Successours any spirituall power which should be a sufficient cause to make the Sea Apostolike odious to Christian Princes or that the knowledge of true Catholike faith either concerning the Popes spirituall power to take away the crownes or liues of Christian Princes or concerning any other thing could be a sufficient cause to make the Sea Apostolike odious to Christian Princes more then the knowledge of true Catholike faith concerning the power of temporall Princes to take away the temporall goods and liues of their subiects can be a sufficient cause to make temporall authoritie odious to Christian subiects Hostis Herodis impie Christum venire quid times said Sedulius who flourished about the yeere 430. Non eripit mortalia qui regna dat caelestia which is Englished thus That Christ is come why doest thou dread O Herode thou vngodly foe He doth not earthly Kingdomes reaue that heauenly Kingdomes doth bestow But Herode might iustly haue replyed if this new broacht doctrine were true yes I haue great cause to feare for that not only Christ but S. Peter also and his Successours haue by their ordinarie commission authoritie to bereaue mee not onely of my kingdome but also of my life 15 And the same answere which is also conforme to the doctrine of all the ancient Fathers would Sedulius haue made to any Christian King who should haue feared that the Pope by his spirituall power might depriue him of his kingdome and life to wit that he neede not to feare the Popes power in that respect for that Christ our Sauiour hath giuen to the Apostles and their Successours the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and not of earthly kingdomes to absolue from sinnes not from debts to binde the soule with the bond of anathema and not with chaines of Iron 16 But although the Pope should haue power ouer the liues of Princes in order to spirituall good yet Princes sayth this Doctour need not to feare that the Pope will plot the death of any Prince for that no Pope hath euer commanded the killing of Princes or caused them to be slaine by priuie murtherers and it is well knowen that Ecclesiasticall lenitie shunneth bloodie punishments But first if the Pope haue such a power it is euident that it is in his free choise and curtesie to take away the life of any wicked Prince in order to spirituall good as it is in the curtesie of a temporall Prince to take away the life of any wicked subiect in order to temporall good Secondly that the Pope is also bound as I prooued against Suarez to proceed against a Christian Prince See Apendix to Suarez part 1. sec 9. nu 6. seq who is a knowne heretike or persecutor of the Church or publike enemie to spirituall good in that manner and by all those waies publike or secret by which a temporall Prince is bound to proceed against a publike traitour a notorious robber and murtherer by the high way side and a knowne enemie to the common temporall good 17 Thirdly if no Pope hath euer plotted the death of any Christian Prince the reason heereof I thinke to be for that there was neuer any Pope that held this newly inuented and neuer before heard of bloody doctrine that the Pope as Pope or by vertue of his spirituall
held with Catholike faith was truely a generall Councell therefore vnto this day it remaineth a question euen among Catholikes And all the world seeth that the Diuines of Paris are admitted to Sacraments which ought not to bee tolerated if they committed any heresie errour or temerity for defending this doctrine as publike harlots are in some sort permitted at Rome but not suffered to receiue Sacraments so long as they persist in that wicked life 81 And from hence it euidently followeth first that it is not certaine and infallible that the Pope with his Cardinalls and Diuines yea and with the particular Romane Church defining determining or propounding to the whole Church any thing to be beleeued formally as of faith without a generall Councell cannot erre and be deceiued and consequently such definitions cannot be certaine and infallible nor can be an assured ground of Catholike faith nor a sufficient reason motiue medium or cause to beleeue any thing by him so defined with Catholike faith for that the fundamentall reason medium cause and motiue to beleeue any thing with Catholike faith must be certaine and infallible as I shewed before out of Bannes from whom other Diuines doe not dissent herein and if that reason be vncertaine doubtfull or fallible the faith or beliefe which is grounded and dependeth thereon cannot be truely Catholike and infallible 82 Secondly if the Popes decrees and definitions in things to be beleeued as of faith albeit directed to the whole Church and in things which doe not concerne his owne particular interest honour authority or prerogatiue and wherein therefore there can be no suspicion that he himselfe is led by affection or his Counsellers and Diuines by flattery to the making of such Decrees are not certaine and infallible but may be false and exposed to errour and consequently can be no sure ground of Catholike faith what iudgement can any sensible man make of such decrees or definitions which are neither directed to the whole Church but to particular persons or Churches nor are propounded as of faith nor grounded vpon any doctrine which is certaine and out of controuersie but onely vpon a question maintained on both sides by learned Catholikes and which also concerneth the Popes owne interest authority and prerogatiue as are his Breues directed to English Catholikes which are neither propounded to the whole Church nor containe any definition as of faith but onely a declaratiue precept which is grounded vpon a controuersie which began in Pope Gregory the seuenth his time and hath since continued betwixt the Bishops of Rome and Christian Princes concerning the authority which Popes pretend to haue ouer all their temporalls 83 Thirdly if the Popes Decrees together with the Romane Church by which he declareth and defineth any doctrine to be of faith or against faith may be fallible and exposed to errour and consequently can be no certaine rule or ground of Catholike faith nor any sufficient reason cause or motiue to beleeue any thing with Catholike faith so long as this controuersie among Catholikes concerning the Popes infallibility in his definitions remaineth vndecided much lesse can a Decree of any Congregation of Cardinalls declaring any doctrine to be of faith or condemning any doctrine as hereticall erroneous temerarious or scandalous be an assured ground of Catholike faith or a sufficient reason for any man to beleeue with Catholike faith that doctrine to be such as their Decrees doe declare or condâ—mne Which being so what iudgement I pray you can any reasonable man make of such their Decrees which condemne no doctrine at all either in generall or particular but onely forbid certaine bookes to be read or kept without declaring for what cause or crime either in particular or in generall they are forbidden and such bookes also as are written against one of the chiefest of their Congregation of which sort is that Decree of the Cardinalls wherein two bookes of mine written chiefly against Cardinall Bellarmine are forbidden without expressing any cause or crime at all either in particular or generall why they are forbidden 84 Fourthly by all this it is euident what infinite wrong this my ignorant Aduersary whether onely through blinde and inconsiderate zeale or also through some passionate splene taken against me for contradicting his writings and some others of his Societie I leaue to God his own conscience to iudge hath both done to me in so falsly and yet vpon such childish grounds accusing me to be no Catholike but an hereticke disguised and masked vnder the vizard of a Catholike for not admitting the Popes Breues and declaratiue precept grounded at the most vpon an opinion which learned Catholikes haue euer impugned and taxing my doctrine of heresie for that my bookes are forbidden by the Cardinalls of the Inquisition without condemning any position contained in them of any crime either in particular or generall and also into what eminent danger he both casteth himselfe headlong and seeketh also to draw after him vnlearned Catholikes if they will follow such a blinde guide in waies which he himselfe for want of Scholasticall learning hath neuer gone by endeauouring to ouerthrow their Catholike faith and to perswade them to build it vpon fallible grounds as vpon Popes Breues which neither are directed to the whole Church nor doe containe any definition or declaration of any particular doctrine and vpon the Decrees of certaine Cardinalls condemning bookes onely in generall tearmes which perchance some of them neuer read nor for want of sufficient learning doe well vnderstand but doe relie either vpon the relation or iudgement of other men to whom the charge of ouerseeing such bookes is committed by them whereas the grounds of true Catholike faith and the fundamentall reason why a man ought to beleeue any thing with Catholike faith must be certaine infallible and without all controuersie And thus you see in what a labyrinth this silly man hath wound himselfe who seeking to perswade his Reader that I am no true Catholike but a disguised and masked hereticke vnder the name of a Catholike for not building my Catholike faith vpon vncertaine and fallible grounds and which are controuersed among learned Catholikes plainly bewraieth what a sound Catholike he himselfe is and vpon what sure grounds he buildeth his Catholike faith and would haue other Catholikes to build the same whereas according to the approoued doctrine of all learned Catholikes vnlesse it be built vpon certaine vndoubted and infallible grounds it cannot be a true Catholike faith but onely an vncertaine and fallible opinion masked vnder the vizard of Catholike faith 85 Lastly that vnlearned Catholikes may walke warily securely and without danger and bee not misled blindfold by this my ignorant Aduersary they must carefully obserue the difference betwixt the Church firmely beleeuing and probably thinking or which is all one betwixt Catholike faith and opinion The first difference is that the grounds of Catholike faith must bee certaine and infallible but the grounds of
whom I built a Monasterie I had not repented at the last houre And truely I haue escaped eternall death but I shall be tormented with most grieuous punishments vntill the day of Iudgement But the Mother of mercie obtained for me of her Sonne that I might come to thee to desire prayers which when he had said he presently vanished away And Ludgard told his necessities to her Sisters that they might relieue him but she greatly pittying his case did afflict her selfe for his cause with wonderfull punishment Let the Reader know saith Thomas Cantipratensis the writer of her life from whom Surius tooke the same that those three causes are by the reuealing of Ludgard not vnknowne to vs but for the reuerence of so great a Pope we would not relate them 7 Which example saith Card. Bellarmine is wont oftentimes to terrifie mee exceedingly and to cause mee to tremble For if so commendable a Pope and who in the eies of men was accounted not onely honest and prudent but also a Saint and woorthy to bee imitated did scape so narrowly hell fire and is to bee punished vntill the day of Iudgement with the most grieuous fire of Purgatory what Prelate would not tremble who would not examine most exactly the secrets of his conscience For I doe easily perswade my selfe that so great a Pope could not commit deadly sinnes but being deceiued vnder the shew of good by flatterrs and those of his owne houshold of whom it is said in the Gospell Matth. 10 A mans enemyes are they of his owne howshold Therefore let vs all learne by this so great an example to examine carefully our conscience least perchance it be erroneous albeit to vs it seeme to be right and sound Thus Cardinall Bellarmine whose counsell in this point I thinke it necessary that all my Aduersaries with Cardinall Bellarmine the chiefest of them and my selfe should duely consider least that the zeale which all of vs pretend to haue be blind and not according to knowledge and that our conscience albeit to vs it seeme to bee right and sound bee erroneous and grounded vpon culpable ignorance For my owne part I haue examined my conscience very carefully and cannot find my selfe guilty of any fault for examining this controuersie touching the lawfulnesse of the Oath and the Popes power to depose Princes and that I was not mooued thereunto for feare flattery hope of gaine or any other worldly respect but truely and sincerely God is my witnesse for the loue I beare to God Religion my Prince and Countrey to finde out the Catholike truth and being found to embrace professe and follow it and thereby according to our Sauiours commaundement to render to God and Caesar that obedience which doth belong to them 8 Secondly therfore I wish my Aduersaries to consider what may in the iudgemēt of any prudent man be thought of those men who by fraud or violēce should seek to force vpon any one a great sum of gold which he greatly suspecteth to be false and counterfaite and therefore refuseth to accept thereof before hee hath fully tryed whether it be true or forged coyne and whether any fault be to be found in him both for desiring to haue the gold examined by the touchstone and those waies by which true gold is discerned from counterfaite before hee bee compelled to take it for good and currant and also for giuing his reasons why hee thinketh the same to bee false and forged And if they will not suffer him to make triall whether it be good or no but will needes haue him to take it for good gold when not onely himselfe but also diuers other skilfull Gold-Smiths doe greatly suspect yea and are fully perswaded that it is naught and counterfaite and if he refuse to accept thereof in that manner they should seeke to disgrace him with the Prince and people and to accuse him of disobedience to the State and who wilfully refuseth to accept and acknowledge the Kings coyne for lawfull whether these men doe not great wrong to that party and whether it may not be prudently thought that they haue a guilty conscience and that they themselues suspect the said gold not to bee indeed so good and currant as in words they would pretend 9 Now the case betweene mee and my Aduersaries is farre worse then this For they haue sought by false and fraudulent meanes not onely to impose vpon the whole Christian world a false and counterfait Catholike faith for truely Catholike but to slander and defame all those Catholikes and my selfe in particular who for the reasons wee haue often propounded refuse to accept thereof for Catholike vntill it be better prooued so to be and to condemne vs of temerity and disobedience to the Sea Apostolike yea and of flat heresie and they would make the world beleeue that wee are not true Catholikes but heretickes disguised and masked vnder the vizard of Catholikes For so saith M. Fitzherbert c. 17. nu 19. And albeit we doe publikely professe our selues to be true Catholikes and doe submit all our writings to the iudgement and censure of the Catholike Romane Church and doe sincerely and solemnly protest to recall and recant foorthwith our errour if wee haue committed any as soone as it shall be made knowne vnto vs that wee haue written any thing amisse yet they feare not to affirme contrary to all iustice and charity that all this our profession submission and protestation is but a false luster and glosse So saith Fitzherbert c. 17 nu 1. 26. to cast vpon our counterfaite ware of purpose to deceiue and that it proceedeth from no other ground but from a deepe dissimulation or rather an artificiall and execrable hypocrisie to delude and deceiue Catholikes 10 Neither will they suffer vs to examine by the true grounds of Catholike Religion their newly inuented Catholike faith and to yeeld our reasons which doe fully perswade vs that their faith which they pretend to be Catholike is not ancient and true but a newly inuented and a false and forged Catholike faith but they haue caused his Holinesse to condemne our bookes which in our iudgement doe plainly discouer their forgeries and to forbid all Catholikes as well learned as vnlearned to read them without signifying vnto vs any one thing in particular which we haue written amisse although wee haue often and earnestly requested to know the same but all that they say or write wee must forsooth without any further examination approoue for good and currant doctrine albeit wee haue most plainely conuinced them of manifest fraude and falshood in almost euery one of their arguments and answeres which they haue brought to prooue their doctrine in this point of the Popes spirituall authority to depose Princes and to inflict temporall punishments to be truely Catholike All which being duely considered what infinite wrong they haue done vs it is too too manifest and albeit they pretend true zeale to Catholike Religion
power which by the law of Christ shunneth bloodie punishments might in order to spirituall good depriue any man of corporall life or concurre to the effusion of blood And therefore if those Popes who haue been so vehement to maintaine their pretended power to depriue Princes of their kingdomes had duely considered what odious detestable and bloodie conclusions doe euidently follow from that doctrine and position I make no doubt but that they would likewise from their heart haue detested abhorred and vtterly forsaken and caused to haue beene hissed out of Christian schooles the doctrine and premisses from whence such horrible hatefull and abhominable conclusion is are so cleerely and certainly deduced Fourthly therefore although it be most true that Ecclesiasticall lenitie doth shunne bloobie punishments yet it is not for that the law of Christ doth forbid Ecclesiasticall persons to concurre in any case to the effusion of blood nor onely for that Ecclesiasticall persons are by the Popes lawes which by force of the lawes doe not bind the Popes themselues commanded not to inflict in any case bloodie punishments or not to vse the materiall sword but also for that it is not lawfull according to the law of Christ for Ecclesiasticall men as they are Ecclesiasticall men or for Popes as they are Popes or by vertue of their Ecclesiasticall power to inflict temporall punishments or which is all one as I obserued before p Part. 2. ca. 9. out of S. Bernard to vse the materiall sword 18 Now you shall see how fraudulently and insufficiently D. Sculckenius answereth this my argument at the number 335. where briefly I did onely touch the same for at the number 43 seq where at large I prooued the same he cunningly as you haue seene passeth it ouer onely with It is not a hard matter to solue the argument let it passe as not belonging to the matter That which Widdrington doth adioyne in the end sayth he q pag. 510. that from the doctrine of deposing Princes it doth manifestly follow that the spirituall Pastour may giue leaue to priuate men to kill by any arte or stratageme an hereticall Prince as a certaine wolfe is a most horrible slander like vnto which I know not that the breast of man hath at any time so despitefully vttered Act. 8. I see plainly that Widdrington is in the gall of bitternesse and the obligation of iniquitie For seeing that the opinion of Bellarmine is commonly receiued by the Catholike Church and also confirmed by most frequent practise whilest my Aduersarie Widdrington doth propound and debate it as spitefully as possibly he can he seemeth to haue no other purpose then to bring the Vicar of Christ his Father and Pastour whether he will or nill into the hatred and that most great of Princes and to make all Catholike Diuines and Lawyers to be odious yea and plainly and of set purpose to sound the alarme to call Princes to armes against the Church of God but iniquitie will belye it selfe 19 For it is one thing to depose one for a iust cause and another thing to kill him by priuie murtherers For it is oftentimes lawfull for one to depose who may not lawfully kill and oftentimes that is a cause of a iust deposing which would not bee a cause of a iust killing wherefore whatsoeuer it be concerning the trueth of the consequent which is not called in question neither doth it make to the purpose the consequence which my Aduersarie Widdrington doth inferre is denied whilest he argueth thus The Pope hath power to depose Princes therefore also to kill them c. for from the power to depose doth not follow the power to kill And to confirme it by examples A Father may for some cause depose his sonne from the right due to the first begotten sonne yet hee may not kill him or giue leaue to kill him A Master may depose a seruant from his office yet hee may not kill him A King may depose a Magistrate from his gouernment for some offence for which hee may not iustly kill him A Biship may depose a Clerke and yet hee may not foorthwith kill him The Pope may sometimes depose a Bishop and yet hee may not for the same cause iustly bereaue him of his life 20 But to omit the railing and slanderous speeches of this vncharitable Doctour whereof I haue spoken somewhat aboue and which more plainely will be discouered by laying open his manifest fraude and fallacious dealing in answering my argument marke good Reader I beseech thee how foulely and shamefully hee seeketh to delude thee in proouing the consequence of my argument not to bee good but to bee false and a most horrible slander and whether of himselfe or me that saying of the Prophet is verified mentita est iniquitas sibi Psal 26. iniquitie hath belyed her selfe For it is one thing saith this Doctour to depose one for a iust cause and another thing to kill him by priuie murtherers Who maketh any doubt of this and oftentimes saith hee one may lawfully depose who may not lawfully kill and oftentimes that may bee a cause of a iust dâ—position which is not a cause of a iust killing And of this also speaking in generall and abstracting from a supreame power to depose and kill and from the crimes for which one may lawfully bee deposed or killed there can be made no question But what of all this how can it from hence bee concluded that from the doctrine of the Popes power to depose hereticall or wicked Princes in order to the publike spirituall good which was the antecedent proposition of my argument it doth not manifestly follow that the Pope in order to the same spirituall good hath not also power to kill hereticall and wicked Princes and knowne perturbers of the common spirituall good by all those wayes publike or priuate and by all those Artes and Stratagemes by which temporall Princes in order to the publike temporall good may kill publike malefactours and perturbers of the publike temporall peace 21 Wherefore whatsoeuer it be saith he concerning the truth of the consequent which is not called in question nor maketh to the purpose the consequence which Widdrington inferreth whilest he concludeth thus The Pope hath power to depose Princes therefore also to kill them c. is denied But first I would gladly know wherefore this Doctor saith that the truth of my consequent which is that the Pope hath power to kill Princes is not called in question nor maketh to the purpose For if his meaning be as it seemeth to be that no Catholike affirmeth that the Pope hath power to kill Christian Kings for otherwise he would not so bouldly haue said that I by vrging this argument did impose vpon the Vicar of Christ a most horrible slander like vnto which the breast of man hath neuer so despitefully vttered then I say the consequence of my argument is good and to the purpose and it proueth that my
yea it would haue been very lawfull iust and conuenient though he had held the contrary opinion whereby it is manifest that his opinion concerning the immaculate puritie of her Conception was not the ground of his Decree as Widdrington doth very fondly suppose it to bee whereas in our question touching the Canon of the Lateran Councell the case is farre different seeing that the said Canon hath such dependance on the doctrine of the Popes power to depose Princes which is necessarily supposed and included in it that if the Pope haue no such power the Canon is vtterly void being altogether vniust vnlawfull and erroneous Whereupon it euidently followeth that the doctrine of the Popes power to depose Princes is the foundation of the Canon 7 So as you see that to impugne this vndoubted ground of the Canon hee is faine to suppose and vrge a false ground of Pope Sixtus his decree and consequently faileth wholly in the proofe of that which he pretendeth and therefore to make his Instance good and the cases like he should haue prooued that the doctrine of the Popes power to institute Feasts is vncertaine and imagined by learned Catholikes without danger of sinne for Pope Sixtus his Decree touching the celebration of the Feast supposeth the truth of that doctrine as in like sort the Canon of the Lateran Councell concerning the deposition of Princes supposeth that the doctrine of the Popes power to despose Princes is certaine and true and therefore I conclude that his second Instance wherein he supposeth a false ground is as improbable and impertinent as the former 8 Thus you see that the whole substance of this Discourse which Mr. Fitzherbert here hath made against my second example which hee truely affirmeth to be my second Instance consisteth in this that he denieth the ground and foundation of Pope Sixtus his Decree to be his opinion and perswasion that the blessed Virgin was not conceiued in originall sinne and affirmeth that I doe very fondly suppose the same wherein I know not whether to taxe him of manifest fraud or palpable ignorance for to shift off my instance and to censure it according to his vsuall manner as fond improbable and impertinent he is faine to forsake the common doctrine of the learnedst Diuines of his owne Societie as of Salmeron Salmeron ad Rom. 15. tom 13. disp 22. Suarez tom 2. in 3. part disp 3. sec 5. Vasquez tom 2. in 3. part disp 117. cap. 5. Suarez and Vasquez who doe constantly hold that the immaculate pure and holy conception of the blessed Virgin was the ground and foundation of Pope Sixtus his Decree and to taxe very rashly and arrogantly their doctrine as fond improbable and impertinent and very fraudulently or vnlearnedly to take hold for a colour of his fraud or ignorance of certaine answeres of their Aduersaries which were seene propounded confuted by them Which to make most plaine and manifest I thinke it not amisse to set downe verbatim what Suarez with whom Vasquez and Salmeron doe agree in this point writeth of this matter 9 But at the last saith Suarez to proue from the authority of the Church that the blessed Virgin was preserued from originall sin and sanctified in the first instant of her conception the Church of Rome two hundred yeeres since generally receauing the celebration of this Feast giueth speciall indulgences to the worshippers thereof Whereupon she seemeth in some sort to haue canonized the conception of the blessed Virgin But perchance it will be said that this conception is not celebrated for that it is holy but because it hath beene a great benefit of God and a beginning of greater But this by no meanes is to be approued because as it is manifest by the vnderstanding of the faithfull the Church doth not celebrate this Feast onely for giuing thankes in respect of God but also in honour of the Virgin but the Virgin should not bee worthy of honour for her conception vnlesse therein she had beene holy Moreouer S. Thomas Bernard and Ildefonsus doe thinke that it is sufficiently proued that the blessed Virgin at the time of her Natiuity was holy for that the Church doth celebrate her Natiuity therefore the same iudgement would they make of her Conception if they should see the Feast to be celebrated Lastly Galatinus lib. 7. cap. 5. saith that the Feast of her Conception is in some Martyrologies expresly set downe for the most great purity and sanctity thereof and this will be made more euident by that which shall be said 10 But some others say that the Feast of the Conception was not celebrated but of the Sanctification at what time soeuer it was done or truly if the Feast of her conception be celebrated it is not therfore because she was sanctified in the first instant but because she was sanctified perchance that day But this also is against the meaning of the Church which euer intended to celebrate some speciall priuiledge and immunity of the Virgin vpon this feastiuall day whereof are manifest signes First because Saint Bernard in the aforesaid 147. Epistle did vnderstand in this sense the meaning of the Churches which began to celebrate this Feast For if they should celebrate onely the sanctification there were no cause why he should reprehend them Besides the Councell of Basil doth plainly say that it is an ancient custome of the Church to celebrate this Feast in honour of the Conception of the immaclate Virgin or of the immaculate Conception of the Virgin for the Latin wordes may beare both senses 11 Thirdly in a certaine Roman office of this Feast which is confirmed by the authoritie of Pope Sixtus the fourth this oftentimes is expresly said and the intention of this Feast is declared And after the same manner Pope Sixtus the fourth doth speake in the Extrauagant Cum praeexcelsa and in the Extrauagant Graue nimis de reliquijs venerat Sanctorum calling her Conception pure and immaculate and granting Indulgences to those who doe piously beleeue and celebrate the same And so also the Councell of Trent vnderstood these Decrees sess 5. where she confirmeth them Whereupon the same Pope Sixtus the fourth saith that those doe not sinne who thinke that the B. Virgin was conceiued without sinne and for that cause doe celebrate her Feast Therefore without doubt this is the intention and reason of this festiuitie Adde that in the same manner one may say that when the Church doeth celebrate the Natiuitie of the Virgin it is not for that shee was holy in her Natiuitie but because shee was sanctified within that day but this is plainely false and absurd as it is manifest by that which hath beene saide therefore the same is for the present And the reason is generall because the Church doth properly worship and celebrate the mysteries and priuiledges of the holy Conception and Natiuitie Thus Fa. Suarez 12 So as you see how Fa. Suarez not only saith but also proueth that
three Instances or in this Argument whereof now we treate make any mention at all of the Lateran Councell although indeede I haue now by the way and without any necessitie vrging mee thereunto signified as you haue seene aboue that those words of the Lateran Councell vt extuncipse c. that then the Pope may denounce his Vassalls absolued from their fealtie which my Aduersaries affirme to bee the Decree of the Lateran Councell ordaining the practise of the Popes power to depose Princes cannot according to their owne grounds bee a true proper and formall Decree containing any precept or obligation but rather the reason cause and end for which the former Decree was made as I haue more amply declared before 24 Secondly neither are all the reasons of Decrees so extrinsecall thereto that they may faile and yet the Decree stand good for some are so intrinsecall and as I may say so essentiall to the Decree that the Decree cannot possibly stand good if the doctrine bee not true or at least-wise presumed to bee true as I shewed before in the reason of the canonizing of Saints and of celebrating their Feast in honour of their Sanctitie and also of celebrating the Feast of the B. Virgins Conception in honour of the vnspotted puritie thereof and of these and such like reasons I chiefly meant when in the aforesaid argument I demanded whether the reasons that mooue Popes and Councells to define or decree something are not as it were certaine grounds and foundations of their definitions and decrees So that I may truely conclude with my Aduersaries owne wordes that hee argueth as ignorantly impertinently and absurdely in impugning this argument as in the former and in the same manner also hee still goeth on 25 But now will you heare saith hee i p. 203. nu 9. how well Widdrington concludeth this his last argument and condemneth himselfe of errour or heresie Thus then hee saith Quapropter c. Wherefore no man can doubt but that great difference is to bee made betwixt the voice Vbi supra nu 63 doctrine and consent of the Church firmely beleeuing or defining any thing as a matter of faith and the voice doctrine and consent of the Church onely probably thinking For no Catholike man doeth deny that hee who contemneth to heare the voice of the Church firmely beleeuing doeth fall into errour or heresie whereas Catholike Doctours whose authoritie the learnedst of my Aduersaries will easily admit doe plainely affirme that hee who being mooued with sufficient reason doeth not embrace the doctrine of the Church onely probably thinking doeth not expose himselfe to the danger of heresie errour or temeritie For Alphonsus Salmeron and Francis Suarez men truely very learned doe bring the practise and consent of the whole Church to confirme the immaculate Conception of the B. Virgin and yet that the contrarie opinion may bee defended without any danger of deadly sinne they both plainely acknowledge and cannot also deny without great offence we saith Salmeron do oppose the consent of almost the vniuersall Church the vniforme doctrine of all vniuersities Salmer tom 13. ad Rom. 5. disp 51. §. deinde Suarez tom 2. disp 3. sec 2. And the second ground saith Suarez is to bee taken from the authoritie of the Church And first the vniuersall consent almost of the whole Church and especially for these two hundred yeeres almost all Ecclesiasticall writers Bishops almost all Religions and Vniuersities haue subscribed Thus Widdrington 26 But first Mr. Fitzherbert is fouly deceiued in saying or conceiuing that this is a conclusion of this my last argument For it is a conclusion and as it were a briefe collection and explication of all the answeres I made in that Apologeticall Preface to all the arguments by which my Aduersaries laboured to conuince mee and my doctrine touching the Popes power to depose Princes of temeritie errour and heresie For seeing that all the arguments which they brought to prooue my doctrine to bee temerarious erroneous yea and hereticall were grounded chiefly vpon the generall voice doctrine and consent of the Church as they pretend I thought good for a conclusion of all my answeres to these their false imputations to admonish the Reader of the aforesaid difference betwixt the voice of the Church firmely beleeuing and onely probably thinking whereby hee might plainely perceiue that considering all my former discourse and answeres I had clearely freed my selfe from all iust imputation of heresie errour and temerity 27 But secondly let vs now see what exception Mr. Fitzherbert taketh against this my so manifest and certaine conclusion Wherein I wish saith he i Pag. 203. num 10. to be noted two things the one how confident Widdrington is that he hath prooued by his three instances or examples and this his last argument that the Church ordaining and decreeing in the Lateran Councell that Princes shall in some cases be deposed by the Pope did not firmely belieue but onely probably thinke that the Pope hath lawfull power and authority to doe it whereas you haue seene his instances and arguments to be so weake friuolous and impertinent that they haue serued to no other purpose but to discouer his folly and the weakenesse of his cause 28 But truely I cannot but greatly pitty this poore mans case albeit I am much ashamed to see and discouer his palpable fraud and ignorance For neither did I in those three instances or examples or in this last argument make any mention at all of the decree of the Lateran Councell neither did I intend to make any inference from them concerning that decree neither did I euer graunt that the Church in the Councell of Lateran did ordaine or decree that Princes might in some cases be deposed by the Pope but I alwaies affirmed that the aforesaid decree or rather Act did onely concerne the deposition of inferiour Magistrates or Lords by the consent and authority of absolute Princes that therfore that Act or decree was not made by meere Ecclesiasticall authority and consequently could not be a matter of faith but of fact onely as are all the decrees of temporall Princes concerning meere matters of fact For although it be a matter of faith that temporall Princes haue authority to make temporall Lawes yet it is not a matter of faith that in making such lawes they cannot erre and therefore their lawes are not matters of faith but of fact onely but the Church in making lawes to all the faithfull concerning such matters of fact or manners which are necessary to saluation cannot erre by commanding anything which is contrary to the Gospell or the law of Nature and therefore such lawes are not onely matters of fact but also of faith 29. That wherein I was confident is this that seeing my Aduersaries haue not hitherto brought nor will euer in my iudgement be able to bring any one sufficient argument to prooue that the doctrine of the Popes power to depose
affirmed onely the Minor proposition to wit that his Holinesse Breues condemning the Oath for that it containeth many things flat contrarie to faith and saluation were grounded vpon an vncertaine and fallible foundation or doctrine and light that is not weightie enough to make a matter of faith to wit that it is against faith to say that the Pope hath not power to depose Princes c. and vpon false informations to wit that his power to excommunicate to binde and loose in generall and consequently his spirituall Supremacie is denyed in the Oath and both these my assertions I haue sufficiently conuinced to bee true But this silly man thinking thereby to lay a foule aspersion vpon mee of irreuerence and small respect to his Holinesse doth himselfe adde the Maior proposition not affirmed by mee and therein he plainly sheweth his owne irreuerence and small respect to his Holinesse and to many other Popes accusing him and them by this Maior proposition which hee addeth to bee the most carelesse and negligent Pastours that euer gouerned the Church of God For this is his Maior proposition whosoeuer affirmeth that his Holinesse Breues were grounded vpon light or vncertaine foundations and false informations must needes hold him to bee the most carelesse and negligent Pastour that euer gouerned the Church of God by which his assertion hee plainely sheweth what little respect and reuerence hee beareth to his Holinesse and sundrie other Popes who oftentimes as I shewed before out of Pope Innocent the third t In the Canon Anobis 2. de sent Eucom are oftentimes lead in their iudgements and Apostolicall sentences by vncertaine opinions which both deceiue and are deceiued and not alwayes by true informations for which cause saith Pope Innocent it happeneth sometimes that hee who is bound before God is not bound before the Church and he that is free before God is bound by a Censure of the Church So that you see what account Mr. Fitzherbert to vse his owne wordes maketh of these Popes holding them according to this his assertion to bee the most carelesse and negligent Pastours that euer gouerned the Church of God 41 For my owne part I neither made that irreuerent inference which Mr. Fitzherbert heere collected but hee himselfe out of his want of learning and iudgement broached and inuented that irreuerent Maior proposition from whence if it were generally true that inference may indeed be gathered as well concerning his Holinesse Breues as also the Decrees and iudiciall sentences of other Popes wherein as Pope Innocentius himselfe acknowledged they are sometimes lead not by trueth but by opinion and information which oftentimes is false and both deceiueth and is deceiued neither did I deny that his Holinesse before hee published his Breues vsed graue long and mature deliberation concerning all things contained therein albeit I must needes confesse that hee might haue vsed a more graue long and mature deliberation if hee would haue consulted the matter not onely with his owne Diuines of Rome but also with those of France and these of England whom most of all it concerned and doubtlesse hee might by them haue had a more sufficient information of the whole matter and controuersie then hee had by his owne Diuines alone as the euent sheweth to bee very true But whether this his graue mature and long deliberation and consultation with his Diuines onely of Rome was sufficient to excuse him from all carelesnesse and negligence before the sight and iudgment of God I will not as I said before it being a thing not knowne to mee meddle therewith neither will I accuse or excuse his Holinesse from sinne for sending hither his Breues so preiudiciall to the Kings Maiestie and to all his Catholike subiects without making a more graue long and mature deliberation and discussion but I leaue it to the iudgement of almightie God who onely knoweth the secrets of all mens hearts when through ignorance or negligence they commit any offence And thus you haue seene that fraude hath beguiled it selfe and how in that snare which Mr. Fitzherbert to taxe me of irreuerence and small respect to his Holinesse hath said for me is wily beguily caught himselfe Now you shall see with what fraude and falsitie this silly ignorant and deceitfull man doth still goe on 42 And whereas Widdrington signifieth saith he u P. 214. nu 6. that his Holinesse was deceiued by Cardinall Bellarmine x Ibid. nu 51. 52. Item epi. Dedic nu 8. and Fa. Parsons hee sheweth himselfe very vaine and absurd in this coniecture For how can any man perswade himselfe with reason that his Holinesse meaning to giue his Apostolicall sentence in a matter of so great importance as was this of the Oath which sentence hee was well assured should be skanned and censured to the vttermost by all the Heretikes and Politikes of Christendome would suffer himselfe to bee led or guided by any two three or few persons were they neuer so learned or well steemed of him Besides that it is euident to all those that know how that matter passed that it was long debated in certaine Congregations of Cardinalls and other great Diuines wherein Cardinall Bellarmine had onely but one voice as other Cardinalls had and Fa. Parsons none at all for that hee did not enter therein 43 But obserue good Reader the egregious fraude and falsitie of this man who would make thee beleeue that I did say that his Holinesse was deceiued and misinformed of the true sense and meaning of certaine clauses of the Oath only by Cardinall Bellarmine and Fa Parsons and not also by the other Diuines of Rome who consulted of this matter for which cause hee omitted to set downe entirely my second answere to his Holinesse Breues and also the particular points wherein I said his Holinesse was misinformed by them least that his manifest fraude and falsitie should presently haue beene discouered For albeit in my Epistle Dedicatorie to his Holinesse I named only Card. Bellarmine and Fa. Parsons for that they were the two chiefe and principall men that first stirred in this Controuersie by publike writings the one of the Italian and the other of our English Nation yet I did not there affirme that his Holinesse was misinformed deceiued led or guided onely by Cardinall Bellarmine and Fa. Parsons and in my second answere whereto also Mr. Fitzherbert in the margent remitteth his Reader I expresly signified the flat contrarie and with Card. Bellarmine for Fa. Parsons there I named not I also ioyned the other Diuines of Rome It is probable said I y Disp Theo. c. 10. s 2. nu 51. and in my iudgement morally certaine that his Holinesse did vnderstand the words of the Oath in that sense wherein the Diuines of Rome did conceiue them and especially Card. Bellar. c. z See the rest aboue nu 15. And a little after I set downe a copie of Fa. Parsons letter wherein at the very beginning
and suppose it to be vnlawfull as being forbidden by some former law they haue no more force to binde as Fa. Suarez expresly affirmeth Suarez l. 3. de Leg. c. 20 nu 10. then hath the reason whereon they are grounded So that if the reason be certaine then we are bound to obey if it be onely probable wee are no more bound to obey that declaratiue commaundement then we are bound to follow the Popes opinion against the probable opinion of other learned Catholikes All this and much more touching declaratiue and constitutiue precepts and his Holinesse Breues in particular which doe onely containe a declaratiue precept forbidding Catholikes to take the Oath for that it containeth many things flat contrary to faith and saluation I declared in my Theologicall Disputation x Ch. 10. sec 2. which is aboundantly sufficient to free me and other English Catholikes from all note of disobedience for not obeying in this doubtfull and disputable matter his Holinesse Breues and his declaratiue precept contained therein which is so preiudiciall to his Maiesties authority and so dangerous to his Catholike subiects not being able to finde any one thing therein which is repugnant to faith and saluation especially humbly propounding to his Holinesse the reasons of our doubts and earnestly requesting to bee satisfied therein But Mr. Fitzherbert thought it fit for his purpose to vrge against mee the obiections which I there answered and to taxe me not onely of disobedience but also of errour and heresie and to conceale the answeres which I made thereunto wherein he plainely discouereth his vnsincere dishonest and vncharitable proceeding and that his onely drift is to disgrace mee with his Reader and not to examine vprightly the truth of the cause 95 To conclude therefore this digression it is euident by the premises that if the Pope without a generall Councell define any doctrine to be hereticall erroneous or temerarious and command all Catholikes to belieue the same no Catholike is bound or ought to belieue with Catholike faith that doctrine to be hereticall erroneous or temerarious for this respect onely because the Pope hath defined and commanded the same for that it is a controuersie among learned Catholikes whether he hath any such authority infallibly to define or no and consequently neither his definitions nor his declaratiue commandements grounded thereon can be certaine and infallible grounds of Catholike faith And thus much touching inward beliefe But secondly if the Pope command that none shall preach or teach against his definitions or Breues then wee must obserue that golden rule of learned and deuout Gerson that if we neither perceiue any manifest errour against faith in his definitions or Breues nor that by our silence some great scandall shall arise to Catholike faith we must not dogmatize against them otherwise wee must speake freely and feare no Censures See his words aboue Chap. 14. num 39. But notwithstanding this document of Gerson if any learned man hath doubts and difficulties which doe trouble his conscience concerning the verity or lawfulnesse of the Popes definitions or Breues when they are greatly prejudiciall to a third person especially to a whole kingdome it is lawfull for him according to the doctrine of Sotus and others before rehearsed to propound humbly to his Holinesse the reasons of his doubts desiring to bee satisfied therein for this is not to dogmatize or to teach or preach publikely against them although this also according to Gerson be sometimes commendable yea and necessary but it is a desire to bee taught and instructed concerning the veritie or lawfulnesse of them 96 Thirdly if the Pope should excommunicate nominatim by name all those that shall teach preach or write against his definitions or Breues in case they perceiue great scandall to arise to Catholike faith if they be silent and doe not oppose themselues or should excommunicate nominatim those who shall write Supplications to his Holinesse to be taught and instructed concerning the veritie or lawfulnesse of his definitions or Breues whereof they haue great doubts and difficulties which doe perplexe their conscience then they must remember that saying of our Sauiour wherewith Gerson concludeth his golden document that Blessed are they that suffer persecution for iustice and let them assure themselues that they are vniustly excommunicated and free before God howsoeuer the Pope hath tyed them by his Censure and therefore they may in this case carry themselues in that manner as those who are not excommunicated in the sight of God though by presumption which often deceiueth and is deceiued they may bee thought by many persons who know not their innocency to bee excommunicated Yet they must not contemne the Censure but also for feare of scandall obserue it in the face of the Church although secretly and when no scandall is like to arise they may doe all that which if they had not beene excommunicated they might haue done and they who know their innocency may in like manner conuerse with them secretly and without scandall as they might before But notwithstanding any such excommunication they may still write supplications to his Holinesse vntill hee shall instruct them and may still appeale to his Holinesse ad melius informandum to informe him better and to desire to be fully instructed propounding humbly the reasons of thâ—â—rdoubts 97 Lastly if the Pope or the Cardinalls of the Inquisition shall forbid Catholikes to read or keepe certaine bookes to know whether and by whom such bookes may without any licence be read and kept or no learned Catholikes must diligently obserue for what reason ground cause or end they are forbidden to be read to wit whether for that they are repugnant to faith or good manners and also they must carefully consider the natures properties and differences of declaratiue and constitutiue precepts and that according to the common doctrine of Diuines whensoeuer the reason or end of any law doth generally cease the obligation also of that law doth cease So that if the bookes are forbidden for that they are repugnant to faith and therevpon may be dangerous to soules and this reason is not true but onely pretended and falsly supposed the reason end and cause of this prohibition doth altogether cease to him who seeth this false pretence And this obseruation I haue set downe chiefly for learned men For those that be vnlearned must bee guided and directed by vertuous discreet and learned men which learned men who take vpon them to guide and direct others if through affectate and wilfull ignorance they doe erre for that they will not duly examine the matter when they haue sufficient cause to doubt thereof but either for feare or flattery will beleeue with blinde obedience the Popes or Cardinalls words knowing certainly that they may erre and oftentimes haue erred and now haue sufficient cause to doubt and consequently to examine whether at this present they haue erred or no seeing that learned Catholikes doe in
no Catholike is bound to admit his Holinesse Breues forbidding Catholikes to take the Oath and to obey his declaratiue commandement contained therein for the reasons signified before which I humbly propounded to his Holinesse desiring him most earnestly as being our chiefe Pastour Teacher and Instructer to giue vs some satisfaction therein yet I cannot therefore in the iudgement of any learned man bee iustly accounted a disobedient childe to his Holinesse seeing that it is euident as I shewed before out of Dominicus Sotus that if a Superiour imposâ— a commandement whereby danger is feared to Religion or to the common-wealth or to a third person as all the world knoweth that the forbidding of the Oath is heere in England preiudiciall to Catholike Religion to his Maiestie and the temporall State and to all his Catholike subiects if the subiect be doubtfull that such a danger will arise he is not bound foorthwith to obey but he may without any disobedience demaund of his Prelate a reason of his commandement propounding humbly the reasons of his doubts 103 Besides Luthers doctrine was within two yeeres condemned not onely in generall words but also his propositions were specified in particular both by Pope Leo himselfe in his particular Bull concerning the same and also by the famous Vniuersities of Paris Louan and Collen But albeit two of my bookes are by a particular decree of the Cardinall forbidden in generall and I commanded vnder paine of Censures to purge my selfe forthwith yet they haue neither expressed any one proposition in particular neither as yet can I get them to name one proposition which is repugnant to faith or good manners although I haue most earnestly requested to know the same protesting from my heart to bee most readie to correct what is to bee corrected to purge what is to bee purged to explaine what is to be explained and to retract what is to bee retracted which their different proceeding against me and Luther doth plainly argue that they haue begun a worke which they cannot with their reputation continue and that there is no such dangerous doctrine contained in my bookes as Cardinall Bellarmine against whom I did chiefly write and who is my accuser Aduersarie and Iudge hath by all likelihood informed them and would gladly to saue his owne credit and that he hath not falsly to his great dishonour accused me and my doctrine of errour heresie and of being no good Catholike would make the world beleeue for which at the day of iudgement hee shall render a strict account And thus you see that this comparison which my indiscreete Aduersarie hath to disgrace me made betwixt me and Luther doth nothing helpe but greatly hurt his cause 104 Now you shall see what a fraudulent and vncharitable obseruation hee gathereth from hence That which I wish saith he z Pag. 121. nu 18. 19. to bee obserued heerein is how little heed is to bee taken to Widdringtons submission of his writings to the Roman Church he should haue saide Catholike Roman Church considering his doctrine and the course he holdeth in the maintaining thereof For as Cicero saide by Epicurus who wrote sometimes very vertuously and thereby deceiued many it is not so much to be considered what hee writeth as what his grounds and principles are and how well his writings agree therewith as for example what opinion he or any other hath or can haue of the authoritie of the Sea Apostolike who purposely impugneth the iurisdiction thereof contradicting as I haue shewed sufficiently in this Reply the ancient and generall practise of the Church the expresse Canons thereof and the Decrees of Popes and Generall Councells vpon an absurd supposition partly of a bare probabilitie in his own doctrine partly of a possibilitie of errour in Decrees touching matters of fact which he is not ashamed to say of the Decree of the famous Oecumenical Councel of Lateran albeit all Catholikes doe vniformely teach that generall Councells lawfully assembled and confirmed by the Pope cannot erre in any generall Decree touching either faith or manners as I haue sufficiently signified before a See chap. 16. nu 11. and 12. Besides that he vseth the very obiections arguments answeres shifts and euasions of heretikes discouering now and then such an arrogant proud and malicious spirit towards the Sea Apostolike that no zealous Catholike can reade him without great disgust and indignation or can take him for any other then an heretike disguised and masked vnder the vizard of a Catholike 105 But to answer the false and fraudulent obseruation or rather shamefull calumniation of this malignant spirit which hee would gladly colour with the luster of a faigned intemperate and Pharisaicall zeale to the Sea Apostolike I may rightly say to him as Saint Paul sayde to Elymas the Magician O plene omnidole omnifallacia Act. 13. c. O full of all guile and of all deceipt c. For to begin with his later wordes I doe not vse any other obiections arguments and answeres then which vertuous and learned Catholikes haued vsed before mee neither doe I discouer any arrogant proude or malicious spirit towards the Sea Apostolike whom I reuerence and respect with all my heart onely the plaine truth which Catholike Doctours haue said before me and which oftentimes breedeth enmitie I doe modestly reuerently and without any flattery which commonly procureth friends â—â—â—downe And this vncharitable and ignorant man might haue done well to haue named some one particular shift or euation which I haue vsed and which onely heretikes and no Catholikes doe vse or wherein I discouer such an arrogant proud and malicious spirit towards the Sea Apostolike that no zealous Catholike can reade it without disgust and indignation or take me for any other than an heretike disguished and masked vnder the vizard of a Catholike But this is a vsuall tricke of slanderers and backbiters to vse such generall speeches lest if they should descend to particulars their malicious and lying spirit would presently bee discouered 106 Secondly this silly man cannot prooue that any one thing either concerning my doctrine and the grounds and principles thereof or concerning the course which I hold in the maintenance thereof doth not agree with the submission I made of my writings to the censure and iudgement of the Catholike Romane Church For I doe not impugne any authoritie or iurisdiction which the Catholike Romane Church acknowledgeth as due to the Sea Apostolike but I impugne onely the Popes authority to depose Princes and to inflict temporall punishment as a thing certaine and necessarily to be belieued or maintained by Catholikes for that the Catholike Church neuer acknowledged this authoritie to be due to him neither was this doctrine in the primitiue Church and for many hundred yeares after by the ancient Fathers so much as dreamed on but it hath been challenged practised by some Popes since the time of P. Gregorie the 7. Res ante ea secula inaudita