Catholikes that neuer sawe Master of Art in his habit It is onli◠Christs bodie in the Eucharist as it is crucified in the Eucharist But it is onlie sacramentallie meaning in a signe crucified in the Eucharist Ergo it is onlie sacramentallie meaning a signe in the Eucharist For the Solution whereof if you demaund of anie Catholicke i◠our Sauiours bodie crucified in the Eucharist he tels you No. demaund againe is it there indeed reallie he Answers yes so I haue beene taught and I beleeue it And heereby Master Waferer though he knowes not the termes of Art He denies that which is your Maior A Scholler will tell you further of another sence of the word shed whē it is attributed to the Sacramentall cup and of the word broken when it is attributed to the bodie which you did not reflect vpon when you made your Argument The bodie blood of our Sauiour the lambe sacrificed for the world are heere in the species of things inanimate which existence by reason of the exteriour formes giues occasion when wee speake of the sacred actions that are exercised towards or about them to vse that kind of speach which was proper to sacrifices of that kind whereof some were solid and drie others liquid among the solid was bread which was broken to signifie the soueraigne dominion of Almightie God Leuit. 2. among the liquid was wine which to the same end was powred out vpon the Altar hence those words powred out or shed and broken are vsed to signifie the action of sacrifycing when the things offered or sacrificed be in formes inanimate of bread or wine and euen by our Sauiour himself This is my bodie which is broken for you 1 Cor. 11. this is my blood of the new testament which is powred out or shed for many Matt. 26. This breaking for and shedding for is vnbloodie sacrifycing Which Caluin espied also and confessed when he expounded the breaking in S. Paul Calu in Epi pri Cor. panis quem frangimus frangi saies he interpretor immolari But the Apologist obiectes againe out of the word shed Howeuer it be shed saith he it moueth being powred out if it moue it is in a place if in a place then either circumscriptiuelie or definitiuelie Heere it appeares that as before I noted he speakes of shedding according to the ordinarie common acception of the word without reflecting on the other acception according to which neither this nor the former Obiectiō hath any kind of apparēce For a thing may by consecration be put vpō the Altar in the forme of wine without any locall motion of it And this presenting of it on the altar by turning not it into an other thing but wine into it donne to signifie the soueraigne dominion of allmightie God is one part of the sacrification which wee call vnbloody the other part is the putting of the bodie on the altar by consecratiō in the shape of bread and both these make one representation of the bloodie sacrifice and oblation on the Crosse But you are not yet accustomed to consider how words are extended by reason of analogie in the matters to an equiuocall kind of signification whereof in the mysteries of Christianitie yea and in other matters too there are frequent examples wherefore I come neerer to your conceptiō and in answer to your doubt tell you first that as a thing may be in place either per se or per accidens so may it be said locallie to be moued either per se or per accidens your soule in your hand and the blood of our Sauiour heere Supra pag. 471 seqq are in loco per accidens I told you before more of this Secōdlie those two modi which you speake of do not sufficientlie distinguish or expound that which wee call being in a place God is in the world yet neither of these two waies and our Sauiours bodie in the Sacrament though not either of these wayes which you speake of The veritie of Gods word doth inforce a presence distinct from both those and to suppose there is none distinct is in you that are Christned an hereticall begging of the Question Insteed of a third replie you demaund whether wee beleeue that thing in the Sacrament which you describe by transubstantiated bread wine to be the price of our Redemption I answer that I beleeue Iesus Christ who told vs that that thing in his hands in the forme of bread was his bodie deliuered for our sinnes and that thing in the chalice his blood shed for vs. This Master Waferer though you shrink and crie Alas fond faith is part of my Creede That our Sauiour was borne of the Virgine Marie is most certaine I beleeue it And I beleeue him haue I not cause that was so borne I willinglie ioyne with Antiquitie with the Catholike and vniuersall Church of this Prince of peace this Emmanuel this Virgins-Sonne this Heire apparent of all that God hath Ioan. 16. who trulie said Omnia quaecunque habet Pater mea sunt euen his Diuinitie his knowledge his omnipotēcie wherby He Iesus he was able to make good his promise the bread which I will giue is my flesh to verifie what he did affirme this in forme of bread is my bodie Whilst you censured this faith as fond did not your conscience trouble you Master Waferer and whē you named the price of our redemption in the cup did not your memorie suggest vnto you those words of S. Augustine before discussed where he said that Iudas the traitour and a Deuill drank it Iudas that tooke it not by the waie or meanes of faith but onlie with his mouth yet he tooke it he tooke that himself an infidell quod fideles cognouerunt precium nostrum That precium was not in the cup before consecration S. Ambr. lib. 5. de Sacr. c 5. but after it was there Heare another as ancient and his Catechist when he came into the Church Ante verba Christi calix est vini aquae plenus vbi verba Christi operata fuerint ibi sanguis efficitur qui plebem redemit Before the words of Christ the Chalice is full of wine and water but when the words of Christ haue wrought there in the Chalice is made the blood which redeemed the people Apol. pag. 89 So he But Master Waferer wiser then he Alas fond faith if so you beleeue Lord help your vnbeleefe This is all the little he had in this matter to replie he had wearied himself it seemes in the former Section his string was broken too he could not shoote rouing bolts as before he did and therefore is now contented to lie downe Will you see how he lies hauing nothing els to do till he goes into the next Section I will loose a little time in counting how manie lies I finde heere in one page the first of this Section taking in that the sence be cōpleate
alloquitur haec definitio non placet age praesta te Magistrum nos doce quid aliud vocatio Dei esse possit quando Deus vocat dicit appellat nominat Hoc verbum Dei est cum inquit Hoc est corpus meum sicut in Genesi ait Fiat lux fit lux Deus est qui nominat seu vocat quicquid nominat id illico praesto est vt Psalm 33 testatur dixit facta sunt Ibidem Item Irenaeus ait Quomodo autem rursus dicunt carnem in corruptionem deuenire non percipere vitam quae à corpore sanguine Domini alitur Hic iterum audimus corpus nostrum eo cibari corpore sanguine Domini vt in aeternum viuat non corrumpatur vt Haeretici somniabant Irenaeus loquitur de corporali manducatione cibatione corporis tamen vult cibum illum esse corpus sanguinem Domini Ibidem He brings there also the Sacramentarians Euasions and refutes them out of Irenaeus words cleere plaine in so much that it caÌ„not Si quispiam mihi persuadere potuisset in sacrameÌ„to praeter paneÌ„ verum ego captum me video nulla euadendi via relicta textus enim Euangelij nimis apereus est potens Epist ad Argentin habetur tomo 7. in Epist Farrag be auoided auouching withall that it was the Fathers tenet So likewise doth Melancthon Melancth l. de Ver. Corp. Quid fiet in tentatione cum disputabit conscientia quam habuerit caussam dissentiendi à recepta sententia in Ecclesia Tunc verba ista hoc est corpus meum fulmina erunt Ibidem Sequor saith he veteris ecclesiae sententiam quae affirmat adesse corpus in coena ac iudico hanc habere Scripturae testimonium I follow the sentence of the auncient Church which affirmes the bodie to be preseÌ„t in the supper I iudge it to haue the testimonie of Scripture Those who stood on Featlies side were such as by Apostacie had gonne out of the true Church Archidiaconus Andegauensis anno 1035. Docuit paruulos non esse baptizandos teste Guit mundo eiusdem temporis scriptore Hanc autem Haeresim esse constat vniuersalis ecclesiae testimonio idemque fatentur Angli Protestantes Berengarius who Malmesb. l. 3. recanted Sacerdos Pastor de Lutterworth anno 1371. Wickleff Archidiaconus VVittembergensis Lutheri discipulus Carolstadius Pastor Tigurinus Swinglius Ex monacho Apostata Oecolampadius Nouiodunensis Deus adeo hunc Haereticum percussit vt desperata salute daemonibus inuocatis iurans execrans blasphemans miserrimè animam malignam exhalarit Schlussel in Theol. Calu. fol. 72. idemque testatur Hieron Bolsecus in eius vita That Luther Caluin Swinglius Carolstadius Oecolampadius had beene Papists as they speake before they fell into their Heresies is declared out of their owne authors in the booke de Auth. Prot. eccles l. 2. c. 11. Caluin See the Censure pag. 274. Iudas and that great Apostata the See the Censure pag. 274. Deuil I do not mention Touching this Bertrame reade the Plea for the Reall Presence against Sir Humfrey Linde by I. O. Bertram because he that makes any speach in him Caluinisticallie ProtestaÌ„t in this matter doth withall make him coÌ„tradict himself it is the same of that Concerning this Homilie and the Author see the Prudentiall Balance l. 1. c 19. in Odo and Alfrick c. 22. n. 4. Homilie which is cited as Elfricks and thereby casts him of The Iudge of Controuersies is according to our Aduersaries themselues either the scripture or the Spirit If wee goe with the Controuersie to the Scripture to our Sauiour speaking in it the cause is ours This is my bodie which is broken for you Which words if they be certainlie true in a proper and literall sence then wee are to yeeld the whole cause reall Presence propitiatorie Sacrifice and Adoration saith D. MortoÌ„ the last who wrot in England before Waferer of this subiect I haue said oft and now repeate the same againe that the litterall sence or letter cannot be retained in these words of Christ Cited p. 293. This is my bodie without establishing the Papisticall transubstantiation saith Beza If we go with the Controuersie to the Spirit in the Church we gaine the Cause too for all knowne Churches in Luthers time did beleeue and professe it If to the Spirit in the first Protestantes Luther and his Disciples the Cause is ours If wee consider diligentlie the circumstances of the text 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 my owne bodie that which is deliuered broken crucified for you and of the blood in like manner vt supra pag. 11. wee are more and more confirmed in our tenet If wee reade the Fathers wee finde theÌ„ to be ours the Lord of Plessis Mornay had obiected out of them by the help of his Ministers what he could but he is fullie answered by the worthie Cardinall Peron in a iust tome of this subiect onlie which booke he were to refute that would laie claime to Antiquitie in behalf of the Sacramentarian Heresie Moreouer that our tenet of the Reall presence of our Sauiours bodie vnder the signes was the tenet of Antiquitie the Church tells vs the Church I say in Luthers daies and before a thousand yeers together in which Church there haue beene innumerable great Schollers examining Recordes reading the Fathers comparing and considering the text of Scripture and this Church tells vs the Fathers their predecessors taught them as they teach vs. Why should wee not beleeue them in a matter so plainlie deliuered in the Scripture rather then Daniel Featlie or Oecolampadius or Iohn Caluin If you will moue vs with Authoritie bring greater Authoritie If you will moue vs with Scripture bring plainer Scripture and more worlds openlie in plaine termes interpreting it against vs. The Authoritie of one Deuine of a Nation will not serue against a world The Doctour obiecteth S. Augustine but against S. Augustine as hereafter will appeare He obiecteth Tertullian and Origen and against Tertullian and Origen they in this point were not diuided from the world But had Origen or Tertullian beene opposite in their opinioÌ„ who so mad as to follow them against so great an authoritie as the Church To oppose a lesse Authoritie to a greater thereby to think to winne the cause is absurd If Authoritie can moue the greater it is the more it moues To vrge against the Church the words of any in As when a man speakes of the practicall dictio or vocatio which is a making of the thing by saying it is or calling it by the name Ipse dixit facta sunt Lazare veni foras Adolescens tibi dieo surge to interprete hâ—s words of a meere speculatiue dictio or vocatio Qui est à terra panis percipiens vocationem Dei iam non communis panis est sed Eucharistia ex
vine I will not drinke from hence forth of this fruite of the vine and he is senceles that cannot see this reference it is so plaine If you desire to knowe more of this cup read S. Luke where the thing is more at large You are wont to saie Scripture must expound Scripture heere it doth so why doe not you beleeue what it tells you D. Featlie All the Fathers generallie vnderstand those words I will not drinke c. of the Sacrament Answer You were told that some doe and had answer giuen you according to that opinion which answer you haue not impugned that some doe not as S. Ierom S. Beade S. Anselme Theophilact whose opinion is better grounded as hath bene shewed Wherefore you did amplifie when you said all generallie vnderstood it of the Sacramentall cup. And when you come to verifie your words by naming those all you finde onelie fiue in all with one particular Councell all which held the reall presence and were opposite vnto you in the cause Let vs looke on them seuerallie Clement Cyprian Chrysostome the Authour de dogmatibus Pope Innocent and the Councell of Wormes First the Bishops in the Councell of Wormes were knowne Papists in communion with the See of Rome and at that tyme when by your owne confession the whole world beleeued the reall presence and Sacrifice of the Masse which they also professe euen in the Canon whence you would dispute and throroughout they shew themselues Papists acknowledging Confirmation Monkes Penance or Sacramentall Confession c. together with the Popes authoritie in calling Councells and determining controuersies appertaining to Religion The treatise de Ecclesiasticis dogmatibus which you cite as S. Augustines is not his and you haue beene told alreadie what sainct Augustine said was in the Cup Ep. 162. euen the price of our Redemption He taught also that the holie victime whereby wee were redeemed l. 9. was dispenced from the Altar that Christ had his owne bodie in his owne hands Conf. c. 13. suprà pag. 45. and so caryed it after such a strange manner as no man euer before did or could beare himselfe that wee receaue the Mediatour Iesus Christ with our mouth Conc. 1. in Psal 33. l. 2. con◠Adu leg c. 9. and with our mouth drinke blood notwithstanding the seeming horrour Clement saies 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c as our Sauiour in the Gospell I am the true vine Io. 15. if he a vine his blood and especiallie as in the chalice may be called (a) See S. Ierome cited p. 111. m. wine S. Chrysostome saith in the place obiected that our Sauiour doth chang the things proposed that he doth nourish vs with his owne bodie that we receaue him and touch him and haue him in vs that Angels tremble when they see the thing wherewith wee are fed and exhorteth vs to beleeue it is as our Sauiour tould vs his bodie and not to trust our sence He saies also that is in the cup which did issue out of the side of our Sauiour S. Cyprian did openlie professe vnbloody Sacrifice vnder the formes of bread and wine Epist. 63. Neither can all your glosses obscure those words before alleadged Panis iste quem Dominus discipulis porrigebat non effigie sed naturâ mutatus omnipotentia verbi factus est caro suppose I say the same of the wine genimen istud non effigie sed naturâ mutatum omnipotentia Verbi factum est sanguis That frute of the vine being changed not in shape but in nature is by the OMNIPOTENCE of the WORD made blood Innocentius tertius in the booke you cite expounds the Masse defends the reall presence and teacheth expreslie transubstantiation which he did also define in the greate and generall Laterane Councell D. Featlie What answer you to so many Fathers a Councell and your Pope Answer I might as you see turne the demaund back to aske of you what you say to so many Fathers and a Pope in a Generall Councell But to forbeare making thrusts because you think that is not faire plaie in a defendant as there aret two Controuersies so you shall haue for answer two things first that all are against you in the matter of the Reall presence against which you are disputing which matter is defined by the Church openlie deliuered in the Scripture generallie acknowledged in Antiquitie and those whose authoritie is obiected did all beleeue it as we doe wherefore themselues were to answer your scruple would doe it easilie in manner aboue (a) In my Lords answer pag. 165. specified Secondlie the other Controuersie is not determined by the Church neither did the Councell that you speake of a Nationall Councell only determine and define it nor Innocentius propose it as matter of beleefe but only as a priuate Doctour makes his vse of it nor the Fathers generallie consent in it nor the Scripture openlie deliuer it but rather the contrarie Wherefore admitting it to be probable you are to thanke those Authours for the curtesie for you cannot get so much by waie of argument And he that could should not be contradicted on our part for persisting in the beleefe of the reall presence wee might indifferentlie defend The Reader may perceaue by the Ministers words more then the Minister would haue him to beleeue touching the euent of the conference either that it was or that it was not the consecrated cup which is meant by those words in S. Mathew D. Featlie D. Smith triumphed as if he had gotten the daie saying are these your demonstrations are these sufficient causes why you should seperate your selues from our Church and from your brethren the Lutherans Answer Had he not reason when your oppositions were all answered and the Dispute at an end The reasons mouing to leaue THE COMMVNION OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD should be vnauoidablie conuincing but hetherto there haue appeared none such nor euer will doe from the mouth of any Protestant THE BREAKING VP of the conference and the Ministers terguiersation ANd heere the conference ended hauing lasted neere seuen howers from noone till it was almost night Some daies after D. Smith hoping according to M. Featlies promise he should also haue a daie to propose the arguments for the Catholike tenet told M. Kneuet that he would be readie to dispute the next Tuesdaie being the tenth of September desiring him to giue M. Featlie notice of it the Sundaie before but though he went thrise that daie and twise the next vnto the house wherein M. Featlie did abode he could not speake with him F. l. 1. d. 1. c. c. v. c. 9. 44. At length hauing gotten to speake with him he warned him to prouide himselfe against the daie appointed but the minister began to pretend that he was to write letters and that there remained yet a great part of their arguments whereunto in equitie it should be answered or at least they should be proposed for the
space of an hower before D. Smith should obiect any thing D. Smith answered that he thought this to be an vniust condition as well because M. Featlie had not permitted him when he was to defend so much as to shew the grounds of his tenet and therefore why would himselfe demaund now to dispute when his turne of defending was as also because no such condition was agreed vpon in the treatie but onlie that M. Featlie should haue one daie allowed him to oppose and D. Smith should haue another He demanded therefore now a daie wherein he onlie might oppose according as it had bene graunted to M. Featlie before But M. Featlie refusing to yeeld thereunto M. Kneuet prouided himselfe for his iourney determining on Tuesday to leaue Paris VVhen M. Featly heard of this hoping as it seemes that D. Smith would not challeng him to dispute any more after M. Kneuets departure late at night about nine a clock he sent M. Kneuet to him and said he would be ready to meete him the next weeke vpon condition a day might be allowed him to prosecute the rest of his arguments D. Smith told him that could not be himselfe being the next friday to depart out of Paris but gaue him leaue to choose for the time of conference Tuesday VVednesday or Thursday for longer he could not differ it adding that if M. Featlie would make choise of none of those dayes he could neither performe his promise nor saue his honour He said also that if M. Featly would put downe vnder his hand that he would not keepe the first conditions of the conference but adde new conditions he would sollicite him no more but this he would interprete as a declining of the conflict VVherefore the day following M. Featly wrote vnto M. Kneuet saying he heard that D. Smith exacted of him his promise to meete againe that he was ready to performe it vpon Tuesday on condition that he might haue leaue first to propose all the rest of his arguments as he said D. Smith promised VVhich thing verily was most false for the promise was not made of all arguments but of a day wherein he should propose which what arguments he listed which wâ—s accordingly permitted him to doe That he now declines the conflict it is euident both by the new conditions which he doth propose by his owne words to one of his freinds whome he told that Catholikes brought so many (a) Traitté du S. SacremeÌ„t de l' Eucharistie par l'illust Cardinal du Perron Paris 1622. Testimonies of Fathers to proue the reall presence that there was need of many weekes to read them ouer and by the confession also of another of his companie who said plainly that M. Featly did exceedingly feare to vndertake the part of defendant and sought a fit occasion to saue his honour THE NOTES OF S. E. THus ends the Relation which had neuer lookt so farre abroad had not the Minister importunely called it out It was not adorned for the print but plainely set downe as you see howbeit being euocated to publik iudgment it feares not to appeare euen there where the Doctour thinks all are on his side It is no great matter by the presse to make a show to triumph in papers and speake freely there where none may contradict but could the Reader haue beene a Spectatour and seene this action in the life he would haue acknowledged what M. Kneuet hereupon did confesse that M. Featly was to yong for Doctour Smith He is many waies to weake to vndertake so greate a wit so ready in answer so strong in argument so conuersant in Scripture Fathers Deuines Much lesse whateuer outrecuidance makes him think of his ability is he able to ouermatch an vnderstanding so full of light so ample so vigorous excellently furnished with all variety of learning and in a cause so cleere so common the cause of the whole Catholike world wherin the IVDGE of Controuersies if the Scripture be Iudge giues the sentence openly in plaine termes on our side and the Holy Ghost in the CHVRCH doth confirme it By the Ministers cariage in the busines and by his owne Relation since you may conceaue what is in him Ex vngue you may gather what a thing the (a) Iâ— taâ—res Libyâ—â— ruunt leones Ne sint papalionibus molesti Featlie of himselfe in his Sacrilegâ— p. 28â— Lion is I haue heard from one that was present at the Conference that he brought his arguments with him written in a paper and vrged them soo poorely that M. Pory did prompt him diuers times He reports indeed that one of the standers by said it was vera digladiatio and not Sorbonica velificatio velitatio I thinke he would say I inquired of the partie from whose mouth the speach should haue come who remembers no such thing but tells me the minister did runne ouer his arguments so sleightly that it deserued on his part rather to be called leuissima velitatio then vera digâ—adiatio And as for the Sorbone Disputants ouer whom he would insult in the comparison the Hugonots in France do know there neuer wanted euen of those Bachelours which he doth glance at such as were able ready to meete his Master Moulins when soeuer he durst enter combat M. Kneuet vpon the Ministers poore cariage in the dispute and tergiuersation afterwards when he shoulde haue answered disliked the Protestant Cause which he saw their Champion could not make good with argument in the presence of a Schollar nor durst face to face appeare to defend it and soone after was reconciled vnto the Church and at Venice died a Catholike So my Lord though he were not permitted once to put an argument nor so much as to shew the grounds of our tenet vsing the buckler onely neuer suffered for to draw the sword got the feild and bore away the prize 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heer 's the leap Heere the leape HAEC Relatio disputationis habitae inter Reuerendissimum Dominum Richardum Episcopum Chalcedonensem Danielâ—m Featlaeum Ministrum Protestanticum de Reali Praesentia Sacro-sancti Corporis Domini N. I. C. in Eucharistia vna cum notis S. E. adiunctis nihil habet Catholicae fidei aut bonis moribus contrarium prout mihi constitit ex fideli relatione cuiusdam S. T. Doctoris qui opus totum perlegit Actum Duaci 9. Iunii 1632. GEORGIVS COLVENERIVS S. T. Doctor Regius Ordinariusque ac primarius Professor Collegiatae Ecclesiae S. Petri Praepositus Canonicus Academiae Duacensis Cancellarius librorum Censor A RELECTION OF THE PRECEDENT CONFERENCE Wherein it is defended against the exceptions OF MIRTH VVAFERER MASTER OF ART OF ALBAN HALL IN OXFORD AND HIS APOLOGIE FOR DANIEL FEATLIE D.D. Censured by L. I. Non disputare amant Haeretici sed quoquo modo superare August con Faustum lib. 13. c. 12. TO THE READERS OF THE TITLE THese Gentle Readers are to thank you for your
the men wee looke for Where is the Catalogue of Protestantish Churches in all former Ages You tell vs of Christians in Europe in Affricke in Asia and in America the new world This wee knew before The Quaere was of yours where were they To say that these some haue deposed their Errours doth not answer the demaund but shewes it is not answered For the thing lookt after is a Catalogue of such Churches as you will iustifie and which the Fathers would haue allowed as Orthodox of Hereticall Churches euerie one can easilie make a Catalogue there be many i. By S. Aug. S. Epiphan Pratel Gualter c Catalogues allreadie made whereas if you confesse that these Churches haue deposed their errour errours oecumenicallie condemned you confesse withall a thing otherwise k. By the Authors aboue cited it is manifest The Nestorians held against the Councell of Ephesus and refused it And the Iacobites Armenians Abassins and Aegyptians all spotted with Eutichianisme refused that of Chalcedon euident that once they did maintaine them and if so then by the iudgment of the l. Euticheans and Nestorians were condemned by the Catholike and Vniuersall Church whole Christian world the men were not Orthodox Howbeit had they become sound and Orthodox it followes not that they would haue subscribed to your Articles or were Protestant yea the contrarie would follow They haue beene indeed m. Iacobites Nestorians Abassins Russits Greeks and Armenians haue made ouertures of returning into Communion with the See of Rome The particulars are in Miraeus lib 1. c 18. returning to the bodie from which they separated themselues the Catholike and Vniuersall Church and were againe n. The Graecians Armenians and Indians were vnited to the Church in the Councell of Florence Acta Conc. Flor. in Decret Eug. Platina Chalcondas Aemilius Vnder the name of Indians are the Abassins and Aegyptians Prat. Gord. Vide Sand. Monarc an 1432. pag 556. vnited some of theÌ„ which doth likewise hinder their standing in your Catalogue But you cannot possiblie finde them in a state wherein write them yours much lesse can you truely say they professed your Religion that which is now currant in England many o. The demaund is of Protestants in all ages men whole Churches or one Church and you must not forge your Euidence hundred yeeres together How many and which do still persist in their ould Heresie or Schisme there is no neede to looke since the men were not Protestant The fewer the better no doubt for you know that p. Galat. 5. Schismatickes and q. Tit. 3. Hereretickes how r. Matth. 20. great so euer the multitudes of them be be not saued Å¿. S. Aug. Epist 152. hoc solo scelere Whosoeuer is deuided from the Catholicke Church how laudablie soeuer he seeme to liue for this onlie crime that he is separated from the vnitie of Christ he shall be excluded from life and the wrath of God shall remaine vppon him M. Waferer where are you mille â—ui Siculis errant in montibus you think I fell into this discourse for want of a particular answer to that you said in your Doctors commendation Repeate it if you please againe and I will discharge the debt Apologist What this booke speakes of Doctor Featlie who will regard since it contrarilie appeares to the world and and can yet be iustified to the doubtfull by witnesses now liuing that he often discouered your Fishers hookes and tooke him with his owne angle he hath euer beene Musket proof he allwaies put Sweetes mouth out of relish Eglestons simples could not work with him Censure Heere you serue in fantasticallie after your manner the Catalogue of Protestants no but of your Doctors Conferences And the first not in time but in the booke is that with the 2. Fathers of the Societie His Cause which was and but of late engendred ex putri materia comming to molest and infect the world out of the nastie sinke of damned Errours and pretending to great Antiquitie with good and honourable descent was called vpon to giue account thereof and of such as had knowne and entertained it formerlie in all ages thorough which it saies it came At the sight of which QuestioÌ„ after many shifts and much wriggling it became speachles and out of weaknes falling to the ground was giuing vp the foule ghost When lo the Doctour to restore and relieue it bestirs himself and puts out the Relation which you point at and after it Additions and Aremonstrance and A Discussion A defence An Answer A Replie Another Replie c. So many that the volume by the continuall agitation of his sting his stile I should saie grew to be as bigge as pestilent Magnum de modico malum scorpium terra suppurat tot venena quot ingenia tot pernicies quot species Nicander scribit pingit tamen vnus omnium violentiae gestus de cauda nocere quae cauda erit quodcunque de posthumo corporis propagatur verberat The name of this b. is in the forhead in red and black characters The Romish Fisher caught and held in his owne Net But laqueus contritus est The a. This is your booke Sâ—â—tes illa nodorum veâ—â—nata intrinietus venula subtilis arâ—uato impetu insurgeÌ„s hamatilo spiculum inâ—â—mmo tormenti ratione restrangeÌ„s booke Master Waferer though M. Fishers Question be not was b A Replie to D. white and D. Featlie anno 1625. answered I adde that it hath beene proued by the confession of the learnedest of of Protestants and such as haue laboured to finde out Protestant predepecessors that before Luther there were c. De authore Essentia Protestanticae Ecclesiae Religionis Auth. R.S. Parisiis anno 1619. none So hard a thing it was for your Doctour though he set a face on it and promised a buttery d. Featlie in the Conference pag 14. booke of names to shew the Catalogue And in the comparison of your doctrine to the Scripture it hath appeared that you e. The Conference of the Catholike and Protestant Doctrine with the expresse words of holie Scripture by R. S.D D. and extant now in English See al o the Anchor oâ— Christian faith by D. VVorthinghton contradict it directlie in many places in so much that you refuse to stand vnto the natiue and f. Suprà pag. 293 proper sence of Gods words So easie had it beene for M. Fisher had he beene willing to diuert from the Question proposed in writing to haue answered the Doctors g. I charg you as you will answer it before Chrisâ— answeâ— now VVhether you beleeue that Christ his Apostles tâ—ught our faith or yours Featlie Relatâ— pag. 29. coniuration The next of those you point at is the Conference with M. Musket whereof wee spake pag. 376. seqq looke there The third is his Conference in writing that it is I suppose you
it in manie places and so horrid were the inside indeed turned outward as would make many pale to looke vpon them Apologist And now Sir S. E. not to dallie with you any longer hetherto true you did nothing els I am to let the world know a merire world belike where Mirth is generall cryer that our Doctour is not that flincher nor Master Kneuet that turnecoate as you storie them Censure Proiicit ampullas But it is to late now for Featlie is such a flincher as he is storied The storie of his tergiuersation is true Lions the b. Arist Hist Animal l. 9. c. 44. Philosopher saith sometimes do runne away And M. Kneuet thereupon did turne also But to giue loosers leaue to speake what euidence do you pretenâ— Apologist For the liklihood of your Lords challinging Doctor Featlie in England the Reader may reflect on my answâ—r to your 23. page Censure That he was challenged was not told you That Featlie refused to meete him in Conference twice in England once before a L. another time before two B. is true The conferences were vndertaken at the request of others who remember the circumstances well enough so doth your Doctours owne Conscience too But wee must returne forsooth to the beginning of your booke for another story where we may looke for euidence to the contrarie as loÌ„g as your Doctor was lookt for by Master Kneuet when he was to defend his Cause and not find it Where is it in your booke in the sixt page well I am at the leafe speake on Waferer In England there were two Proclamations out against his Lordship to attach him and is it liklie that a man lurking to saue his life would a great while before this happened many yeers c. It was before M. D. Smith was Bishop in the time of his Predecessor my Lord VVilliaÌ„ of Chalcedon before send two challenges one lie as bigg as two to my Lord of Canturburies Chaplaines in his howse Censure Is this all so then we haue heard the first part of the proclamation On cryer to the secoÌ„d thing which you were to signifie to the world yet staie Now I am come to the former place whence I went I finde another peece appertaining to this half Apologist Where you accuse him for declining a second conflict in Paris I answer that is well donne that in Paris he could not meete his Lordship why so he was sent vnto and as soone as he was found was called vpon from my Lord. see the Relation pag. 119. seq because his honour had so contriued the matter that he left the towne before D. Featlie had leaue from the Ambassadour whose Chaplaine he was to encounter him Censure How Not leaue from the Ambassadour in Fraunce This excuse is to sillie to acquit your Champion from cowardize Not leaue Belike the Ambassadour knew how he had disgraced himself before when he brought his arguments in a paper Master Porie for pittie helpt him out Could he get leaue in England of his Lord of Canterbury to dispute so many times and afterwards to print his Disputations of Religion not get leaue in Fraunce of an Ambassadour Fie Fie Waferer the more you stirre the worse it is Some other would haue feigned a better tale to saue his honour Apologist That our Doctour did neither distrust his cause nor himself in respect of him is apparent that 's good now or neuer a demonstration or some cleere argument for the game is at a dead lift and your Doctours credit hangs inter sacrum saxumque because after this Conference with D. Smith he had a Disputation at Paris with D. Bagshawe alac this is no demonstration a man of greater note did Featlie tell you so and antiquitie then his Lordship well your inference and therefore your slanders and detractions heere is a bitter storme are groundles and improbable Censure And therefore improbable Is this all vix vrceus I lookt by your braue vndertaking for a conuiction by cleere euideÌ„ce this neither brings in the thing lookt for nor hangs together Master Featlie disputed since with D. Bagshawe Ergo he distrusted not himself in regard of Doctour Smith As well you might haue said Ergo he distrusted himself the tergiuersatioÌ„ was a signe of it in regard of D. Smith seeing that neither then nor since though meeting others he durst meete him And Ergo he tooke D. Smith to be the greater Scholler as not daring to encounter him any more though he had leaue and list and opportunitie to a. I do not think him willing to see a true Relation of that Conference abâ—oad in print trie himself on some others Apologist As for Master Kneuet that he died no Papist as you report but a most zealous Protestant one Master Russâ—l diuers other without exception yet liuing are readie dailie to testifie against you Censure Diuers other Your self and Featlâ—e be not you the diuers other If you be you may strike out againe those words without exception He speakes in his owne cause and makes vse of you to vent his inuentions In that regard your testimonie cannot serue and in another too Qui sâ—mel verecundiae limites transilijt It is not long since you were taken with a lie But Master Russell where dwells he in Vâ—opiâ— One who was in Paris at the time of the Conference writes I haue it vnder his hand thus Master Kneuet after the Disputation told me that he did like and think better of the Catholik Religion He much commended M. D. S. new L. Bishop of Chalcedon for his temper confessing that Master Featlie was to weake to vndertake him and that he thought fewe men could haue spoken better then my Lord did He disliked M. Featlies cariage because it was immodest He highlie commended the solitarie and vertuous liues of the Carthusians and other Religious persons In fine he told me that he would go for Italie and prouiding himself for the iourney took with him four or fiue letters in his commendation from Catholike Doctors of this towne to their freinds and acquaintance there And I heard afterwards that in Venice he died a Catholike It is still to be seene in their Librarie now at Arras Colledge in Paris with his name by himself written in it Another who was at the CoÌ„ference thus What opinion M. Kneuet had of the Disputation and the Disputant appeared sufficientlie in this that he thereupon brought his Bible of the Heretickes translation which he had brought out of England with him to D. Smiths lodging being then in Cambray Colledge giuing it to the common Librarie But when M. Featlie according to his promise was to come into the list and answer before D. Smith he like a coward cryed crauen and quite forsook the field for M. Kneuet hauing beene three daies in seeking him as he said could heare no newes of him But saith he I see will enough how thâ— world goeth and so resolued to