and though it be not in exsise for victuals yet it is in some other wayes from which the subjects of Holland are freed The next thing you affirme is That your riches and strength standeth in one way of Religion To which I answer I thinke if I could understand your minde herein you meane the riches and strength of the Priests for I am sure the riches and strength of the Kingdome may stand best with Toleration as it may appeare partly by what hath been said already for you have heard that the Lords people whom you thus persecute maintaine their owne poore And it will also be made appeare that they pay Scot and Lot in the Kingdome in all civill respects and are all as true subjects to the Kings Majesty and are ready to doe him all faithfull service with their bodies and estates as any in the Kingdome But I confesse that toleration would be neither riches nor strength to the Priests for it is sore against the peoples will that they pay them any thing now and it will be no wonder when it shall be made to appeare what the Priests wages iâ— * but that shall be done hereafter THeir third Reason you say is That if they have not liberty to erect some Congregations it will force them to leave the Kingdome For answer whereof you doe affirme in the first place that there is no neede of a toleration for them neither that they should leave the Kingdome for conscience and that you say will appeare by the Reasons and principles which they doe agree to which you say are these First that they hold your Churches true your Ministers true Ordinances true Further you say they can partake with you in your Congregations in all Ordinances even to the Lords Supper To which I answer Indeede here you would make the Readers beleeve that they had opened a wide gappe if they should take your affirmation without your provisall but you come to helpe your selfe handsomely in that you say their condition was that it must first be provided that scandalous and ignorant persons must be kept backe and Cerimonies must be removed Methinks this is a mighty great mountaine that stands between them and you and therefore you have small cause to aske them wherfore they should desire to set up Churches fortill this mountaine be removed they may be true to their own principles and not go from their word and yet never communicate with you either in worship or government For first If you keepe out all scandalous persons out of all the Churches in England from the Sacraments and all ignorant persons truely then your Churches will be as emptie as ours Secondly If you should remove away all your Ceremonies which is the second part of your reformation you could not tell how to worship for your whole forme and manner of worship is made of invented Ceremonies But if you can procure such a reformation to have your Church all consist of persons of knowledge fearing God and â—ating covetousnesse void of all other scandalls so far as we can judge by the Scripture and that the Ceremonies may be removed and we enjoy as you bragge all Gods Ordinances with you as well as in our owne Churches then you shall heare what I will say to you as well as the Independant men But till all this be done you see there is still good reason for good men either to desire liberty or to leave the Kingdome Further you say some of them could take the charge of Parochiall Churches amongst you upon the Reformation I Answer Indeede such a Reformation which you have formerly mentioned will hardly stand with Parochiall Churches But you say they could yeeld to Presbyteriall Government by Classes and Synods so they might not be injoyned to submit to it as Jure Divino To which I answer It seemes by your owne confession that they doe deny the Presbyteriall government by Classes and Synods to be from God as it appeares in that you say they will not submit to it as Iure Divino and therefore you have overthrowne your selfe in all this your reasoning with your Synods and Classes also so that still there remaines good grounds to seeke a Toleration that the Saints may grow into bodies even in this Land But to grow into one body with you as you would have them while your Churches body is like a Leopard and all bespotted as appeares by your words were very absurd for you â—â—â—e affirme that the best of your members even the Professors especially of London and of the great Townes in England are very fâ—â—le yet I hope you will confesse that they are the best of your members then if it be true as you say that you must remove in your Reformation all ignorant and scandalous persons by your grounds you should have but a very few to make a Church of as well as wee For you must remove also all your Professors which you say are so scandalous Therefore I should rather counsell you to repent of all your evills that you have done and be reconciled to God the Father and Christ his Sonne and separate your selves from all your wickednesse and even come and grow up into one body with us Secondly you say Seeing your Churches Ministers and Ordinances be true the erecting of new and withdrawing from such Congregations can never be answered to God I answer Here you take for granted that which you cannot prove and it is your wisdome so to doe for by that meanes you may make simple people beleeve that you are very right except a few defects which no man shall be freed from while he is in this life But now to the point and first touching your Churches and Ministers which you say be true and you also say the Independant men would grant them to be true upon a Reformation such as the Word requires I tell you for answer that this your juggling will not helpe you for no man is bound to take your bare word therefore it is good you make proofe of that which you have said But before you goe to prove your Churches true declare unto me what Churches you meane for I ever tooke the whole Land of England to be but one Church as it stands established by the Canon Laws and that all the Parishes in the Land make up but one entire body therefore what is amisse in one Parish all the whole are guilty of and it will be laid to the charge of the Archbishops who are the Metropolitanes or chiefe Priests over the Church of the Land Seeing it is so you must stand out to maintaine your Church and you neede not to trouble your selfe about your Church-es for I know no dependancie you have upon any except it be Rome according as I have told you before in the conclusion of my answer to your first tenth Reason against Independencie Therefore this is the Church that you must maintaine even the Church of England established
have but something amongst you wanting yet that were to be desired and therefore you say there is no cause to leave the Kingdome nor for private men to set up true Churches Answer Indeed If your Church Ministers could be proved true which you see is a thing unpossible then it had beene needlesse as you say to leave the Land but neither is your Church nor Ministers true nor can the Ordinances be had amongst you without sinne and that this is the judgement of the Independant men is plaine by your former confession Where you affirme they will not heare of growing into one body or communicating with you before a Reformation neither submit to your Classes or Presbyters as Jure Divino But in the next place you say the setting up of devided Churches would be to the scandall of all the Churches and not the giving of scandall to one brother but to tenne thousands of Congregations Truely Mr. Edwards you overshoote yourselfe in that you make your selfe such an apparant dissembler for you would make men beleeve that you desire to keepe your Church and brethren unspotted and yet you your selfe with your owne tongue have most foulely scandalized the chiefe members of your Church making them so foule a people that they ought not to be communicated with * Further your words imply that so long as a man is not put upon the practise of that which is unlawfull he may beare I tell you againe that your whole manner is unlawfull and therefore all the Lords people as they desire to be blessed and to be found walking in Gods waves have cause to separate from your Church and to practise Gods Ordinances among themselves as well as they who are separated already which you here you call Brownists and the grounds and causes be so great that they may well be justified But you would have conscious men to consider Mr. Robinson concerning circumstantiall corruptions you say he shewes it is not an intolerable evill for evill men be suffered in the Church c. yet you confesse he affirmes it to be an evill Two things are here to be minded First that you would still please your selfe with this that you have a true Church though corrupted which hath beene proved contrary Secondly that you would justifie your Church by the sinnes of others But you know what Mr. Robinson saith That the government instituted by Christ is not onely neglected or violated in the Church of England but the plaine contrarie to it is established by Law But you say now supposing your Reformation it will be otherwise with England then when he writ But you may see it is verie plaine that the crueltie and wickednesse of the Church of England hath increased ever since that time You say there is but something neglected and you would make it the want of some Law to suppresse evill men To which I answer That your Canon Lawes be evill Lawes and your Lawmakers evill men and therefore it could not stand with their principles to make Lawes to suppresse evill men Thirdly you say that they whom you call Independant live in and are members of such Churches and yet they thinke it unlawfull to forsake them I pray you have any of them told you that their Churches be like the Church of England you must make proofe thereof for in this I will not take you upon your bare word Further you say they want some parts of Government and Officers appointed by Christ more matertally than will be in your Church upon a Reformation I answer I have plainely proved to you that Christs Church hath his Government and Officers but your Church hath neither Christs Government nor Officers But what it will be upon the Reformation I cannot tell But you say they must want the Ordinances or else they must have them with instruments without ordination I answer This is untrue as hath beene proved at large in the answers to one of your former Reasons against Independancie But you say you would have them heare with the defects in your Church and waite till God give you more light I answer I know noâ—e that interrupteth you for wee will neither meddle with your Idols nor with your Gods if you would but suffer us to worship our God after the way that you call heresie The next thing you say is that they tell you that something may be omitted for a time and that affirmatives binde not alwayes and that the exercise of Discipline may be forborne for a time when it will not be for edification to the Church but for destruction and therefore you question them for not incorporating themselves into your Church though something were more there to be desired yet you say there will be nothing contrary put upon them nor quite another thing Now that something may be omitted for a time that may plainely appeare for a man that hath brought his gift to the Altar and there remembreth that his brother hath ought against him must leave the offering of his gift and goe and be reconciled to his brother Matth. 5. 23. 24. Now that affirmatives binde not alwayes is plaine for they binde not alwayes in cases of impossibility but in such cases God accepteth the will for the deede Further whereas you say the excellencie of discipline may be forborne for a time when it is not for Edification of the Church but for destruction I say true discipline being rightly used is alwayes for the edification of the Church and never for destruction And whereas you affirme that there is nothing contrary put upon us by you or quite another thing I answer wee know you have none of Gods Ordinances without some other thing to accompany them Fourthly you say that they may safely be members of your Church in the Reformation of you I answer You might well have spared this your vaine repetition till you had obtained a Reformation But the Reason you have heard alleadged for their first going away granted in a letter from Rotterdam that reason still remaines though you say it is ceased and will remaine till the Reformation you have formerly promised But say you that practise they judge themselves tied to is founded upon a false principle namely that the power of government is given by Christ to the body of the Congregation I answer I have told you before in the reply to the second part of this your answer to their third Reason I now tell you againe that you make your Priests the head and body both but Christ hath given the power to the Church which is his body by whose power every Officer and member thereof doth move and doe their severall Offices Fifthly There is say you a medium between persecution and a publike Toleration a middle way say you betweene not suffering them to live in the Land and granting them liberty I Answer This is a very true thing for Pharaoh would have beene willing that the children of Israel
appeales also such as the Scripture warrants and I have declared at large what appeales they be * Fifthly you say they be strangers different in Language and have little acquaintance with you keeping themselves for the most part among themselves and therefore say you there will be the lesse danger of drawing away the people I answer if they differ so little from you as you would make the world beleeve there were small cause of danger or Schisme if they will willingly be joyned as you said before in Government and in one way of discipline with the Kingdome Further you adde that they vent no principles against your Church and Government I answer Indeede if they should never open a mouth to speake yet their practise makes them different from you both in worship and government and yet it may be upon better considerations they may draw neerer to the rule hereafterâ— but for my part I leave them as being partly ignorant of their practise But you say they will not admit your people to be members of their Congregations Answer Indeede I doe not know that ever they have refused any but this much I know that some English people that have the French and Dutch tongue have and doe goe thither to heare but that any should desire to goe thither to heare that have not the language were very absurd Sixthly There is say you a great reason and necessity of allowing them Churches and places to preach and be by themâ—â—lves and the reasons you yeeld are 1 because many of them understand not English at all and 2 for the benefit of strangers of their owne Religion To which I answer The very same may be said concerning the English Churches in Holland But further you adde that they may well be allowed some Discipline among themselves in respect they maintaine all their owne poore Methinks Mr. Edwards there should be much more reason that the English Protestants or Separates should be tolerated for the same cause for they maintaine all their owne poore also And furthermore they maintaine the poore of the Church of England yea in every parish where their dwelling houses stand they pay to the poore weekely as well as any other man They also pay their money for the maintenance of the Visited Houses in the Parishes where they dwell Nay furthermore they pay also their mony for the maintenance of the Priests of England the more is the pitty and so I feare the Dutch and French doe also yea though the Priests are as Popish as they were in Qâ—eene Maries time And this is well knowne to all Landlords that doe let them houses for if they know them to be Separates and that they will not have to doe with the Priests in the pay ment of that they call dues they make their Tenant pay the more rent for if the Tenant will not the Landlord must And by this you may see their burthens are double to other mens in that they must maintaine their owne poore and their owne Ministers and the Church of Englands also And by this you may see that you have not in the least altered the state of the case betweene the Dutch and French and us in the causes before mentioned Therefore this their first reason for toleration lies yet unanswered by you FOr answer to their second Reason which you say is that they seeke no more then is granted them in Holland your answer to it is this That if that be a good ground then Jewes and Anabaptists may have a toleration also To this I answer For my part I speake for my selfe and I suppose that they may say as much for themselves in these late respects which you have mentioned as the Separates doe for they maintaine their poore and their Ministers and the poore and the Priests of the Church of England as well as we And I thinke they are persecuted and hunted also but I will leave them to pleade for themselves Further you adde That such a Toleration is not fit neither in Divinity nor in policie I answer I know no true Divinitie that teacheth men to be Lords over the conscience and I thinke it is no part of Godly policie to drive the Kings subjects out of the land because they desire free liberty to worship God in the Land according to his will the States of Holland are counted politicke and yet they esteeme it the Strength of their Kingdome to grant free libertie of conscience Secondly you say there may be a toleration for us in Holland with much more safety to the government established then can be here because the people understand not our language and also have little or no relation to us of kindred and friendship c. I answer I must say to you as I have said already that there was never any danger to a Kingdome to suffer the Lords people to live quietly and enjoy their liberty Thirdly you say The people of the Holenders are generally industrious and mind their businesse and keeping to what is established by their Lawes not troubling their heads so much with other points of Religion By this one may easily perceive your minde Mr. Edwards with the rest of your fellowes and also know that you are naturally derived from Rome in that you would have all men to content themselves with an implicit faith and to take for granted what government your Lawes alloweth and what worship your inventions have hatcht and not to search the the Scripture at all Further you add here that the people in England are not so especially in this city of London and great Townes you say many of the professors are more idle and busie bodies tatlers also as it is said 1 Tim. 5. 13. very wanton also in their wits affecting novelties in Religion c. Now truly Mr. Edwards if you were of my mind and were a member of such a Church that had such members in it you woulde be so farre from fearing of being beguilded of them that you would be very glad to have such birds taken out of your nest But you are so farre from observing the rule of Christ Matth. 18. 15. that is to tell your brother of his fault betweene him and you that you rather walke with slanders and elamours vilifying your owne mothers sonnes so that every good man may be ashamed of you Fourthly you say that Holland tolerates us and many others but it is more upon grounds and necessitie of worldly respects because of the benifite of exsise towards the maintenance of warre Now Mr. Edwards you have utterly overthrowne your owne Argument laid downe in the beginning of your answer to this their second Reason for then you said it was against the rule of policie but now you say it is their policie And whereas you would make the case different betweene England and Holland I answer It is not different at all for England hath the Subjects purses to maintaine warres as well as Holland