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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88101	A discourse of disputations chiefly concerning matters of religion, with animadversions on two printed books, (mentioned in the contents following next after the epistles:) the latter whereof, at the request of Dr. John Bryan, (for censure and advice) being seriously perused; the author of it, John Onley, is thereupon convinced of error, slander, and of arrogant, uncivill, and unchristian miscarriage, not onely towards him, but all the reformed churches of the world, out of the way of his most affected singularity. By John Ley, rector of the church of Solyhull in Warwicksh. Whereto is added a consolatory letter to Dr. Bryan, &c. upon the death of his worthily well-beloved and much bewailed son Mr. Nathaniel Bryan: which immediately followeth after the discourse of disputations.	Ley, John, 1583-1662.	1658 (1658)	Wing L1877; Thomason E938_1; Thomason E938_2; ESTC R205182	106,562	123

accusation of moving sedition among all the Iewes throughout the world Act ●q 5. he saith v. 12. that his accusers neither found him in the Temple disputing with any man nor raising up the people neither in the Synagogues nor in the City implying that disputation did dispose men to popular disturbance and with reference to the affinity betwixt the one and the other the Catholick meeting in a lesse number then the Donatists for a publick dispute made this advantage of the difference viz. That if any tumults should arise the disorder could not in reason be imputed unto them who were fewer but to their adversaries that in number exceeded them Pauciores catholici q●●m Donatisl●e ●e si tumultus esset minori numero non impataretur August Operts breviculi collat Praefat Tom. 7. part 1. p. 686. Though sometimes there is more danger of commotion from a few turbulent Spirits on the one side then of a multitude of sober minded Citizens on the other whereof you had evidence enough at your City Coventry when those who came as abetters to Mr. Knowles and Mr. K●ff●ns contestation against you and your brother Dr. Grewe behaved themselves so rudely that the Committee residing there thought it necessary to forbid your dispu●tes and the City-Magistrates denyed the use of their Town-Hall for that purpose though they had promised it before their coming when there appeared no such perill of breach of the publick Peace as after their coming they soon perceived How it came to passe that notwithstanding the declared unwillingnesse of the Committee and Magistrates of the City against the publick dispute you fitted them with a publick place and polemical entertainment who came so far out of their way as from London to Coventry to quarrell with you I shall shew in a more convenient place And to go on with observations of like sort I very well remember that in London when Sir Iohn Gayor was Lord Major there was a disputation betwixt Mr. William Ienkins then Preacher at Christ-Church and Mr. Benjamin Cox in Mr. I. his house at which I was present being invited by Mr. I. And at the end of that dispute there was another resolved on betwixt Mr. Iames Cranford and the same Mr. Cox and that within a few dayes after but before the time concluded on I had occasion to bring his Lordship a lift of such Ministers as I thought fit to be Preachers at Pauls as he had requested me to do and then I telling him the discourse we had inducing me to it the dispute between Mr. I. and Mr. Cox and that I was present at it and that another was intended and concluded betwixt Mr. Cranford and Mr. Cox within a while after he replyed that he would have suffered neither of them if he had had timely advertisement of them both but since the one was past and could not be recalled he would send his warrant to prevent the other and that it might be certainly and speedily done he put me upon it to draw up a form of prohibition of it which I did whereupon the parties served with it desisted from their purpose There was another disputation more publickly bespoken and as I have heard agreed upon to be betwixt your two Cov. Antagonists and Mr. Calumy at his Church in Alderman-bury but such animosities of Spirit and symptomes of tumult began to stir and to gather near the time and place of the publick meeting that there was great cause to fear that how ever it fared with the truth the common peace would be much endangered if that concourse were not hindred and therefore by the civil Magistrates it was forbidden and as in duty it was requisite accordingly forborn And I doubt not of Religious Civil Magistrates though their proper office serve principally for the preservation of peace among the common people but some of them have the lesse liking of disputes in Religion because they fear it must be prophaned by polemicall contestations of such as are l Hoc morbi fere innatum est hominum ingeiis ut cedere nesciant Erasm ubi suprà too stout to stoop to the truth and so m Est hoc pertinaciae plerisque mortalium ingeniis insitumut quod semel quocunque casu pronunciaverint nunquam ●u●●… desinant etiamsi compererint perperä pronunciasse Ibid. p. ult pertinacious in their opinions as not to recede from what they have pronounced nay though they see their errour and that they have pronounced amisse and this Erasmus observeth as a disease and infirmity naturally incident to most men And as the Magistrates are publick persons if withall they be religious they cannot think it fit the common interest in sacred and Catholick truths of doctrine and practise should be permitted to private persons to tosse to and fro as a Ball betwixt two Rackets in wrangling altercation This moved the Emperour Marcianus in ratification of the Conncel of Chalcedon n Ne cui amplius liceret publicè de fide differere Baron Annal an 452. num 1. Tom. p. 187. to decree that none should publickly dispute of matters of Faith o Clericus fuerit qui c. consortio clericorum mov●a●ur fi militia praectnctus sit cingulo spoliabitur caeteri sanct issima urbe pellantur Baron Ibid. num 4. col 688. and he laid a penalty on such as presumed to act contrary to what he had decreed as for Clerks to be put out of the number of the Clergy for a Souldier that his helt and sword shall be taken from him for Citizens to be expelled the City and for others their contumacy was to be p Competentibus suppliciis subjugandi Ibid. subdurd with other competent purishments There are two great opposites to each other too opposite to all disputations of Religion the Turke and the Pope who though their Pride make them ambitious of the highest place the head their wickednesse makes them worthy of the lowest the taile Deut. 28.44 1. First for the Turk Mahomet that famous impostor and false Prophet the founder of that impious and impure Sect of the Mahametans not onely forbids all disputes about the Religion of his Bible rather Babell the Alcoran but instructs his deluded disciples how to answer them who are disposed to dispute q Tecum disputare volentibus dic Deum so●●… omnes tuo actus agnoscere qui die postremo lites omnes contrarietates discutiet Alcaroni c. 32. Say unto them saith he God alone knowes all thy acts and at the last day will discusse all controversies and contrarieties Again r Homines incredulos taliter alloquere ego quidem legem vestram minime sequor nec vos meam igitur mihi mea maneat vobisque vestra Ibid. c. 109. to incredulous men say thus I follow not your Law nor you mine therefore let me alone with that which is mine and I will let you alone with yours 2. For the ſ Nobis nullum fas est

fewer than 187 several Treatises and then for the legitimate works how many are corrupted and which Edition of them is the truest and when that is known Where shall we finde the doctrines in difference betwixt the Papists and us discussed or resolved when many of them were altogether unknown in their dayes For those that speak any thing of the matters in question it is hard to judge what is their setled judgement in any point for sometimes they play the Orators flourishing with all figures of Rhetorick which must not be taken in a Dogmatical sense as l Dum essem adolescens imo penè puer Scripsi ad avunculum sed in illo opere pro aetate tunc lusimus calentibus adhuc Rhetorum studiis c. nunc jam cano capite arata rugis fronte c. Hieron ad Nepot Tom. 1. p. 11. princip Epist Hierome confesseth of himself in his Epistle to Nepotian While I was a young man said he and in a manner a Boy I wrote unto my Vncle Heliodorus but in that work I did but play with Rhetorical Studies and painted my paper with a Scholastical flourish now my head is grey and my forehead furrowed I write in another manner Which may give them cause in their elder years to retract and correct what they wrote when they were not so ripe in judgement being young So did Augustine in his two Books of Retractions And some things they have written in passion violently turning from one extreme to another So did Dionysius Alexandrinus and therefore m Basil Episi 41. Maxim Philosoph Basil compareth him to a Gardener who when a bough groweth crooked one way writhes it to be as crooked they other way And in examining of these humane Testimonies it will require time and judgement to distinguish particular Opinions from Church-doctrines Now by that time all assertions in difference have been carried through all Ages with all the distinctions and cautions until Luthers time the Protestants bringing their proofs and the Papists theirs and time allowed for each party to make Exceptions as they please how many years will be spent and at last how fruitless will all this labour be when if there were such consent to be found among them as the Papists brag of it would make but an humane Faith which might be subject to falshood as n Quod historici quidam meminerint eorum conciliorum non potest parere nisi fidem humanā cui potest subesse falsum Bellarm. lib. 2● Sacr. offic c. 25. verbo ult Tom. 3. Contr. p. 86. Bellarmine confesseth And yet both the subtile Jesuites and silly Papists by their Instruction call for this trial of Religion by bringing a Catalogue of Professors in all Ages on which the Jesuite Fisher so pertinaciously insisted o The relation of the Conference Jun. 27. 1623. p. 28. that he would not answer Dr. Featly touching Christ and his Apostles in the first Century unless he first brought in a Catalogue of Professors of Protestancy throughout all Ages And which shewed his impiety and absurdity in the highest degree in the Catalogue called for he would p Ibid. p. 27. not allow the Doctor to begin with Christ and his Apostles This plainly bewrayed the Jesuites great diffidence in his crazy cause and his craft to secure it from a due trial which this way he knew could never be effected and with this fallacy they have locked up their seduced Proselytes in misbelief so that we know not how to deal with them for they will not hear us in any thing unless we speak to the point of visibility in all ages and if we offer to answer them in a readier and surer way by the infallible Testimony of the Scriptures they will not accept of it yet notwithstanding all the advātage they have had by the predominacy of their power over Persons Books Presses to print and suppress what they please we need not decline that way of trial out of any distrust in our cause since there is yet so much upon record for us and against them that if such a tedious and dilatory discussion of our differences were to be undertaken by dispute face to face they could be no gayners in the utmost issue of it as we may well judge by Mr. Berkbeck in his Protestants evidences of the second Edition printed this year in Folio so much amended and augmented above the former in Quarto that I take it to be the best Book extant in that kind When upon deliberation a resolution is made what shall be disputed on The next consideration is concerning the Persons For the Persons and they are chiefly 1. Disputants 2. Presidents or Moderators 3. Notatories 4. Witnesses 5. For others whether admitted by choice or promiscuously without limitation or exception First for the Disputants in them these four qualifications are chiefly requisite 1. They must be learned 2. Of quick conceipt 3. Temperate not passionate or cholerick 4. Pious preferring Verity before Victory First they must be learned in the Learned Languages in Arts and Histories in Textual and Polemical Divinity for they may in conflict be put to it to make use of all the learning they have Secondly They must be quick in conceipt because they must presently without pause or study take their advantage either of objecting or answering Thirdly They must be temperate not passionate or cholerick like Costerus the Jesuite for Costerus of whom Doctor Halls observation is Dr. Hall 1. Decad of Epist Epist 5. p. 282. that he wa● more teasty then subtile more able to wrangle then to satisfie for passion will blind the judgment so as to make a man less fit to make use of his own strength or to take advantage of his Adversaries weakness besides if a man be cholerick it will make him forget the moderation of Michael the Arch-Angel in forbearing railing accusations Jude 9. And the caution of r Haec est modestia disputantis ut nulla adferatur audientibus ex disserentis sermone molestia Chrysost in Epist ad Hebr. ch 2. homil 3 Tom. 4. col 1679. Chrysostom which is that the modesty of the Disputants should be such that nothing drop from their mouths which may be offensive to the ears of the hearers which doth not only give distaste to them but takes off much from the acceptation both of the Disputant and the cause disputed one that appeared in Beza's disputation at Poysie when though he were an excellent learned man and pleaded the cause of Reformation very sufficiently against the Romanists was taken up and commanded to conclude s Hist Conci of Trent l. 5. p. 453. because in the matter of the Sacrament he grew into an heat which not only very much provoked the Prelates to indignation and disdain against the new Evangelists as the Cardinal of Tornon called him and his party but gave ill satisfaction to those of his own side but this exorbitancy of

which their opposites do enjoy and bear themselves boldly against authority as if they meant to merit that Elogium which the Disciples of the Pha●isees with the Herodians gave of our Saviour Mat. 22.16 Master we know that thou art true and teachest the way of God truth neither carest thou for any man for thou regardest not the persons of man And therefore they set up what Religion they plea●e making their conventicles when and what they please and in them speaking of God and man what they please that which is fitter to be whispered in the dark or rather buried in eternall silence then as Divine dictates as our Saviour would have them published on the house-top Luk. 12.3 yet that their more private carriage of their profession in Chimnie-houses where there is ever more smoke then light may not be interpreted to their prejudice as if they had not conscience and confidence to own their tenets in publick they have presumed many times even the weaker sex hath so much strength of fancy and will as to offer to set up their new lights in our steeple-houses and to call our Preachers down from their Pulpits as having no calling from God to be Preachers of the Gospel and herein many of the shallower fort do so applaud themselves that they had rather appeal to them to be their judges g Factus est populus spectator arbiter Index Ludovic Vives de causis corrupt artium l. 1. p. 38. as some judicious writers have observed then to any others h Inde arrogantia quod aliquod sibi viderentur quia stulto judici videbantur Idem l. 3. p. 327. they arrogantly applaud themselves in their approbation But that which maketh the wiser sort more unwilling to give too much way to religious disputations or rather to disputations of Religion especially in publick is the subtilty of some of unsound principles the simplicity of others of a better belief who suspecting no deceipt confiding in the strength of truth are easily intangled with ingagements to dispute to the greatest disadvantage of their cause not forethinking how their adversaries may be furnished for assault and what liberty of misreport they will take either to make shew of victory or to shadow a foil this inconvenience is obvious to an ordinary apprehension But there are some stratagematicall depths and policies of those who are Masters in the Mysteries of iniquity both of the old and new Antichristian faction which I confesse my shallownesse had not imagined had I not been informed of them by a double testimony of good account and credit the one was told me by a Learned Scotchman a great Traveller when we met and became well acquainted in Oxford which though above 4 yeares ago I very well remember it was thus The Protestants of Luthers and Calvins profession have had many disputes and conferences in severall places which i The Protestants have had above 100 meetings conferences disputations councels and Synods from their first disputation held at Lypsia upon the year 1519 to their synod in Vilna 590. So Parsons Preface to the 10. disputations recounted by John Fox v. 26. he takes his ingelligence from Stanislaus Rescaus his observations and meanes though he do not particularly quote his Book wch he calleth Ministromachiam in qua Evangelicorum Magistrorum Ministro●●● de evangelicis magistris ministris mutua judicia Testimonia c. recensentur E●●us Coleniae apud Henric. Falken birg 1522. Parsons numbers to above a 100. betwixt them at one of their meetings which brought them near a conclusion of accord there came in a man in the name of a Lutheran Minister which desired to be heard and he was admitted to speak and he so set up soothed and animated the Lutherans to stand out against all complyance with the Calvinists and so exasperated the Calvinists with reproch that they went away worse minded towards each other then they were when at first they met together The other cunning device was of some of our English Sectaries about the yeare 1647. And that was a plot upon a dispute managed in this manner some of them had provoked a Minister learned enough for his time but too young to match them in subtilty either of caution or of contrivance to a publick dispute which he accepted of and though he acted his part as well as could be expected of one of his parts and yeares yet he rather lost then gained reputation to his cause or person because one of their side pretending himself till then to be of a contrary judgement to theirs at the close of the dispute openly professed his conviction and conversion to their party by the satisfaction he had received at that disputation whereas it was afterward dicovered that he was a great Zelot to that cause and party in former times which together with the other particulars fore mentioned induced me to propose unto my Brethren of the Ministry of Cheshire when they met to subscribe their attestation to the Ministers of London Jun. 1648. the penning whereof by their unanimous vote they put upon me that no Minister might make or take up a challenge for a set disputation upon any point of Religion without consultation and consent of his Brethren who should judge 1. Whether it should be disputed on or no if so 2. How the disputation should be ordered that the truth and those who are advocates for it may be clear and secured from circumvention and slander The like upon an especiall occasion I moved to my fellow Ministers at our meeting at Killingworth in Warwickshire and in both viz. that in Cheshire and this in Warwickshire as many as met together who were a considerable number signified their consent by subscription to what I proposed in these words Iuly the 7th 1656. At the meeting of the Ministers at Kenelmworth resolved and agreed upon That no Minister of this Association either offer or undertake any publick Disputation concerning any point of Religion but in such a manner and order and time as shall be concluded of by the consent of the brethren of the Society Iohn Bryan Obadiah Grew Iohn Ley. Daniel Eyres Iohn Trat Thomas Hall Thomas Dugard Anthony Woodhall Alexander Bean. Henry Buller Luke Milbourn Samuel Hawes Thomas Evance Besides these religious considerations which most concern Ministers to look unto there is another which upon a Civil account belongs most to the Magistrate viz. the preservation of the publick peace much endangered by a numerous concourse of people of adverse principles for debate of their differences From which will hardly be separated that pest of concord as r Concordiae pestis vincendi pertinax libido Erasm Epist praefix operibus Hilar. p. 5. Erasmus calleth it a pertinacious desire to conquer the adversary which may be like to break out into opprobrious words and from such words it may be to blowes and bloud-shed Therefore S. Paul clearing of himself from Tertullus his

mind to magnifie himself and disgrace the Doctor all he could is plain both by the book of the disputation and by his latter book of the Examination of the Doctors Reply For the former it may appear to any indifferent Reader that for a good part of the Book from the beginning wherin Doctor Brian is Opponent he expresseth the promptness of a ready Text-man and the acumen of a Polemick School-man as his assiduous and uncessant yet very powerful preaching sheweth him an excellent Pulpit-man But in the relation of the latter part of the Book Mr. O. so enervateth the vigour of his discourse as if he had suffered a failing of his faculties as Sampson did when his locks were shorn And this he did that he might have more hope to appear a conqueror in the conflict To which end he contracteth the Doctors Speeches and enlargeth his own after what size he pleaseth so that he neither doth nor can acknowledg he hath done him right in the printed Edition of that disputation And who that knoweth his eminent abilities for quickness of conceit soundness of judgement and liveliness of spirit and volubility of speech can imagine that he would suffer Mr. O. to enlarge his answer to his ninth Argument of less then four lines to well towards forty and in that answer to sum up the Dispute into a Triumphant Compendium for his own reputation and the Doctors reproach without one word of Reply for himself or his cause As in this printed disputation he hath done him little right so in the other Book he hath done him a great deal of wrong for not being contented to magnifie his own performance with a mastership in the Dispute as himself sets it forth when it had been honour enough for him in that Doctor Brian accepted of him for his Antagonist though he had submitted to him as his convert he published another Book as an examination of the Doctors Reply wherein he took a great deal more liberty to traduce him But that which I will observe at present is his unworthy dealing with the Doctor in the publication of those two Books for because he could not for shame but publish something in the dispute which might appear answerable to Dr. Brians deserved estimation for otherwise hundreds would have accused him as a falsary that book of the dispute was rather suppressed then commonly sold for so soon as I heard that it was to be printed I wrote to my Stationer for it and remembred him of it with much importunity many times for many weeeks and months together to procure one for me and though he used his best endeavour and diligence to that purpose he still returned a non est inventus for that book but so soon as I heard of Mr. O. his second book and sent for it I received it by the first return of the Carrier afterward the readiest reason of which difference I conceive to be this Mr. O. his falshood in the former Book might more easily be discovered then in the latter and his honour to the Doctors dishonour in the later was more set forth then in the former In the publication whereof besides the offensive Contents of it he gav● Doctor Brian cause of complaint in that this later Book against him much more against him then the former because it was much more contumelious and insolent had been abroad a long time before he had any notice thereof Truely whatsoever Mr. O. thinketh of his own omission herein and it may be his desire was that he of all men should never have seen it I could not but take it for a part of ingenuity and justice when my case was like his to give as timely intelligence as I could of what I had published against his Friend mine Adversary Mr. S. by leaving one of my Books with his Stationer G. C. so soon as it came from the Press to be sent to him with speed and so I dealt with Doctor H. for having received some copies of my first Book against him first of all upon Friday night I sent my servant with one to him the next Saturday following CHAP. IX Of Mr. Onley his Quality and Condition his Wit and Utterance his Ignorance and Arrogancy his reprochful speaking of such as are not of his Sect and partiality to himselfe and them his carping at the Magistrates for medling with matters of Religion and countenancing of Ministers I Shall say little of the man but what I find published to the world by his own Pen and if that have betrayed him to the condemning censure of pious and judicious Readers he must blame himself not me who have no exception against his person I confess he once maketh mention of me c In the Exam● of Dr. Brians Reply p. 32. as of an Adversary but dismisseth me without any incivility at all And I am so far from detracting from any commendation due unto him that I shall not fear the sharp Criticisme of Baronius concerning Onuphrius which was d Aventinum infectum Haeresis scabie bestiam indigne nimis Onuphrius homo Catholicus pectine scalpit eburneo dum eum praedicat virum esse disertum Baron Annal. Tom. 10. Anno 996. col 496. that he being a Catholick did too unworthily claw a beast infected with a scab of Heresie with an Ivory comb when he commended Aventine for an eloquent man I should not I say fear such a censure Though for the two first particulars as some have represented him to me I should say of him as Augustine did of e Tychonius Donatista homo quidem acri ingenio ubere eloquio praeditus Aug. l. 1. contr Ep. Parmen c. 1. Tom. 7. par 1. p. 9. Tychonius the Donatist that he is a man endowed with a sharp wit and copious utterance and that made him more able and more willing to wrangle with the Doctor and to his partial adherents to seem victorious when in the judgement of the most judicious and equal hearers he was vanquished as some of them have told me and I conceive I have the more cause to believe it because in whatsoever he most excelled the Doctor was far above him being eminently endowed with all kind of learning wherein to speak to the third particular Mr. O. his Ignorance he was very deficient though he bring in now and then a few words of Hebrew Greek and Latine that an illiterate Reader may take him for a learned man And if he had been such a one indeed he would not have brought in Historical reports of matters of importance done many hundred years before he was born without quoting some Author of account as for that of f Mr. O. his Exam. of Dr. Br. Reply p. 7. Paphnutius who though but one man prevailed for the liberty of marriage of Clergy-men against a General Councel for which he should and no doubt would if he had been versed in venerable Antiquity have cited g Concil Nice prim Tom.

Scholar who hath least knowledge is apt to be lifted up with pride 1 Tim. 3.6 and who but an ignorant and arrogant man would in the Title-page of his Examination of the Doctors Reply affront him so well known to be every way a man of great worth with such disdainful and disgraceful words as these The Invalidity of his Answers his Sophistical helpless impertinent self-contradicting Allegations are presented to himself and others c. And as he beginneth so he holds on the same insulting style and concluding as he began Ibid. p. 115. I have saith he passed through your Reply and it is proved empty in relation to the Vindication of your Ordination and Entrance And in the last pag. but one of his Examination his words are these Ibid. p. 129. Thus in the midst of many Employments Temporal and Spiritual seldome allowing me one hours opportunity together to attend on this task I have given you saith he to Doctor Brian and the world an account of the unsatufactoriness and insufficiency of your Answers And yet he confesseth the Doctor so sufficient See pag. 15. of his Epist to the Churches of his way 1 King 12.10 that he is as well able to draw something out of any thing any thing out of nothing to his present purpose as any man he knows in England But for all that when he came under your hands mighty Mr. O. whose little finger Rohoboam like is thicker than the loyns of Solomon he was able to do nothing but marre his own Cause and shame himself that you might have the more glorious victory over both It was well for him that you had so little leisure to attend on this task as you say else if you had had time enough to manage your Contestation against him to your best advantage Puritanulum istū in jocos tricas contererem Weston de triplice hominis officio he might have been handled by you as Weston the bragging Papist threatned the learned Doctor Reynolds which was that if he could come by him he would grinde that little Puritan into jests and trifles But the Doctor is though such a one as before we have represented him to the Reader but one man and to conquer him is nothing with this Goliah unless he bid defiance to the whole Host of Israel and with him may stalk it over all the Parish Churches of this Nation yea and with them over all the Churches of Europe and New-England as trodden down by his strength He professeth his opposition of them in that latitude in the first page of his Examination and makes account he hath so far carried the Cause against the Doctor as by the passages already noted may appear wherein though he disclaim all appearance of Popery both in the Dispute and Examination Ibid. pag. 115 129. he bewrayeth a Papal proud Spirit even the Spirit of Pope Victor who would have Excommunicated all the Churches which did not observe his rule for the time of Celebration of the Feast of Easter as hath been noted under another Title The next notorious quality of Mr. O. is his railing and reproching in his Examination of the Doctors Reply as where he setteth upon him with these uncivil terms Exam. p. 60. Tour doting dregs of desperation and denial of the greatest part of the very Gospel it self by which you are involved in a labyrinth of absurdities errours and confusions And afterward in the same page Sure saith he you see not what makes for you and what against you There is one part of the Gospel that you confess not but reproch contemn vilifie and deride viz. The Death of the Lord Jesus Christ for all men in the world which is commonly called Vniversal Redemption How far that Doctrine is to be denied contemned vilified and to be bewailed rather than derided for the horrid Blasphemies concomitant with it and consequent upon it the Reader may be shortly and sufficiently informed by Mr. Marchemont Nedham Pag. 67 68 69 in his fore-mentioned Book against Mr. John Goodwyn And against the Ministry in general Mr. O. venteth himself in this virulent manner Mr. O. and those of his strain think they spight the Ministers of England much by calling them Priests Pag. 32. and their Ministry a Priesthood as Mr. O. doth here and * elswhere in a way of reproch wherein they bewray both their ignorance and malice for 1. The Etymologie of the word it is either from the Latine word Praeest he presideth or the Greek word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one set over another or it is a contraction of the word Priester in Low Dutch which is a contraction of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Greek signifying an Elder and so it is a Name of honour for the Lord hath said Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head and honour the face of the Elder Lev. 19.32 And that this is at length what the word Priest is in short is evident by the alteration which Archbishop Land made in the old Service-Book of England when it was to be sent into Scotland for every where where the English hath the word Priest the Scotch Service-book hath the word Presbyter nor is the word Priest a word of disparagement in the New Testament since the word Priest and Priesthood is ascribed to Christ above or about ten times in the Epistle to the Hebrews The same is given in an honorable sense unto Christians in 1 Pet. cap. 2. where they are called An holy Priesthood ver 5. a royal Priesthood ver 9. and holiness and honour do well sort together 1 Thess 4.4 Rev. c. 1. v. 5. c. 5. v. 10. they are as by Titles of honour called Kings and Priests c. 20.6 Priests alone in regard of their spiritual Sacrifices as of praise Heb. 13.15 of prayer Psal 141.2 of a broken and contrite heart Psal 51.17 of Alms Heb. 13.16 by presenting their bodies a living sacrifice unto him Rom. 12.1 by mortifying inordinate affections and evil concupiscence Col. 3.5 and by offering themselves as dying Sacrifices for Christs sake Phil. 2.17 when they shall be called unto it Thus we are not ashamed to own the name Priest but take it for a term of honour both in the native sense of the word and use of the Gospel yet so we do not appropriate it to our selves nor can they impose it upon us in any signification which hath affinity with a literal Sacrifice either Jewish or Popish In which respect and because in the New Testament Gospel-Ministers are never called Priests as by a peculiar Title Archbishop Whitgift in his last Book against Mr. Cartwright p. 722. Mr. Hookers Eccles Polit. lib. 5. parag 77. p. 419. speak rather against than for the use of it as so limited to restrained The Priesthood of this Nation saith he are proved to be a company of covetous greedy dogs that never have enough Page 34. And where good Sir is

and agree with them in that which is truely popish and Antichristian as Error Pride Schisme Censoriousness Malice Slander sophistical Subtilty as their writings and doings do declare especially Mr. J. O. in his dealing with Doctor Brian in his unfaithful publication of the disputation at Kenelmworth and in his other bitter and insolent Book of Examination afterward The second proof of his partiality is this when Doctor Brian hath proved our Churches of England to be true Churches of Christ by convincing arguments Nam quae non prosunt singula juncta valent Disp p. 6. convincing if taken together though all of them be not of equal evidence and vigour● all that avails nothing towards Mr. O. his satisfaction unless he prove an impertinency to the Question viz. That they were true Churches from their very foundation that is as he explaineth himself more fully elsewhere that all the parishes of this Nation in their first division into Parishes were visible Saints and that those Churches gathered by preaching onely 500. Exam. of Dr. Br. Reply p. 30 37. Ibid. p. 24. Disp p. 5. years before Augustine the Monk were such as our Parishes now are or that they are such now as they were then and this he maketh the life of the Doctors cause and if he prove not this saith he he doth nothing whereas it is neither the life nor limb of his cause no neither hair nor nail of it neither a skirt nor an hem but indeed meet nothing to the purpose And therefore the Doctor did justly and discreetly decline it as impertinent saying it is our Churches present not their primitive state which I undertake to vindicate and this upon very good reason For First The Churches whose primitive constitution was the best and nearest to that of the Apostler both in time matter and form as that of Jerusalem Rome Antioch and the Churches of Asia long since are fallen from the faith and have unchurched themselves by their Apostasie Secondly It is but a Jesuitical evasion from the pertinency and life of the cause of a true Christian Church to wave the present qualifications and notes of it and to put all the weight and stress of the trial upon the Historical report of precedent times as while we prove our Church to be a true Church and our Faith a true Faith by the Scriptures as Doctor Featley d●d against Fisher the Jesuite that would be taken for no good proof with him unless he deduced the visibility of the Protestant Professors through all ages from the Apostles to Luthers time and he professed he would not proceed in the dispute unless that were first done as is observed before Thirdly If it were pertinent and were also proved by Chronological History it would serve but to make up a meer Humane and Historical Faith which is not effectual to Salvation and the doubt of it where it is required and not proved as it is no easie matter to do may raise perplexing doubts and fears of salvation in weak though well-minded Christians as causing suspicious conceits of their being in a true Church out of which as out of Noahs Ark the common saying is none are saved Yet this unsound and groundless assertion of his which hath neither proof of Scripture Reason or of any humane Author of credit or account be not onely putteth into the very front of his Examination frontinulla fides but repeateth it over and over both in the Disputation and Examination to puzzle the simple Hearers of the one and Readers of both Disp p. 1 6 7 12. Exam. p. 11 12 13 24 27 28 30 37. and to make them believe that there was somewhat in it which made the Doctor afraid to meddle with it whereas it was a meer extravagancy from the question in hand which to such as are intelligent shews Mr. O. to be a Jesuitical shifter and that he may appear more and worse then a Jesuite he taketh upon him to be a Pope peremptorily defining tanquam ex Cathedra Pestilentiae not only that our Churches have never been true Churches from the foundation of them but that it is not possible for them to be made true by reformation Thus in the Title page of his Examination wherein his ignorance confidence and imprudence are all of them superlative and worthy of none other answer then a scornful silence Yet the other part of his partiality which now I am to prove will implicitly at least confute it fully for he that is so injurious as to impose upon the Doctor such an impertinency as the life of his cause and to regard none of his proofs though never so pregnant for the truth of our Churches is so gracious to his own side as to resolve that a true Church may be constituted thus A company of true Believers assembled in the Name of Christ willing to follow him in the way of his ordinances revealed in his word and yet seeing their want of a personal succession and yet knowing it their duty and the will of Christ it should be performed did appoint one that was unbaptized to reassume and set afoot this ordinance of Christ And if so how partial is Mr. O. who makes it impossible for our Churches to be made true by any reformation for how easie a matter is it for Churches to be reformed after that manner The third partiality of Mr. O. appeareth in his Epistle to his Schismatical Sister-Churches where he taketh upon him to make a long Paraphrase on the words of Ananias to Saul Acts 22.18 but when Doctor Brian makes but a short one on the words of Peter Acts 2.39 The promise is made to you and to your Children saying if the promise be made to believers and their children the command must reach not only to them but to their children as running thus be baptized you and your children for the promise is made to you and to your children To this Mr. O. in a jeering manner replye●● As if Peter Were not wise enough to express his own meaning to direct us who should be or the grounds upon which they should be baptized without your priestly prudence surely might you have come to the honour or been worthy to have been a Dictator to Peter you would have taught him to have said some what from whence Infants right of Baptism might have been proved With this partiality appeareth a spice of his insolency formerly observed But if Doctor B●ian had been worthy and had taken upon him to play the Dictator he had acted that part a great deal better by deducing Infants Baptisme from the words of Peter then Mr. O. did dictating such an Aphorism out of his own fancy concerning necessary recourse to the primitive constitution of a Church to prove it to be a true Church at present which we have now examined and refuted The fourth partiality I shall mention is this he will not be turned over by Dr. Brian to Mr. Hollingworth for satisfaction

sutisfaction because he wants the books you direct him to or will not be at cost to buy them or trouble to peruse them and if he did read them would bring a resolution rather to cavil at them then to receive resolution from them When you have leisure to wash a Black-moor you may spare some time to spend upon your self-conceited and self-willed adversary Mr. J. O. for such an one will every judicious man judge him to be who reads with indifferency the Disputation and Examination published by him against you Fifthly you have too much precious work in your hands every day then that you can warrantably lay any part of it aside to contend with such an obstinate adversary as Mr. Onley is and I am verily perswaded and I assure my self many that know your various and uncessant pains for the souls of your people of Coventry are of my mind that thereby you do more good in a week there then you shall do by disputing with or writing against a perverse Anabaptist a whole year together Sixthly There are so many now engaged in the defence of the Churches of Christ for now Mr. O. sets himself against all the Churches of Europe and New England besides Old England that so much work cannot in reason fall to your share as still to manage the defence of them all against him or any such obstreperous talker especially having such a weighty burden of pastoral employment continually upon you Seventhly If you should set all aside and encounter him at the Press as you have done by Disputation in the Church it would be to little purpose or profit both in respect of Mr. O. and of his party For First for him unless you answer him in every particular how impertinent soever you shall still be under his exception and insultation to the great prejudice both of your cause person for he not onely taxeth you for deficient answering already saying to a great part of his answer you have not said one word and that your Reply passeth over just half his Answer without a word of Reply Exam. of Dr. ●… Rep. p. 28. Ibid. p. 115. But such is his insolency that as if he had authority to prescribe your part of the controversie as well as to dispose of his own he layeth this severe Law upon you if you contest with him again exactly to answer to each particular plainly and downrightly by reasons and Scriptures directly to the purpose or else to confess you cannot by saying nothing Neither so nor so For datur tertium a man may silently pais by an especial part of his Book written in defence of a precious truth Mr. O. his Exam of Dr. Br. Reply p. 69. as he phraseth it that is Universal Redemption because it is discovered to be a pernicious error and abundantly confuted by Doctor Kendall in answer to M. John Goodwins Book called Redemption Redeemed and another part as impertinent as that so often inculcated position of Mr. O. Of the first constitution of Churches and another part is answered by Dr. Br. before as that for the Vindication of the Ministry of England no need then of confessing you can say nothing Disp p. 33. because you do not say all things as he appointeth you Mr. Fisher made a more modest resolution concerning his adversary and himself If any one answer saith he and I have satisfaction from him to the contrary he shall hear of my Recantation if I have not he shall see it by my silence Mr. Fisher in his answer to Nobody in 5 words p 465. So may you better signifie your dissatisfaction with Mr. O. his Examination of your Reply by your silence then endeavour his satisfaction by a printed answer unto it and that upon his reason viz because he would not lose any more time from preaching at I see I must saith he if I meddle any more at the Press with this subject Secondly It would be to as little purpose and profit in respect of his party Vestra solum legitis vestra amatis caetera causâ incognitâ condemnatis Cicer. l. 2. de natur deorum p. 216. Medicamenta nesciunt insani sunt adversus antidotum quâ sani esse potuissent Aug. confess l. 9. c. 4. who are so possessed with prejudice against your cause by their teachers odious invectives and exclamations against you your Church and Ministry as Popish and Antichristian that they will not onely not buy but not so much as look upon an Apology for you being sick of the perverse partiality which the Orator reproveth in some Philosophical Hereticks of his time You read onely what is written for your own side saith he and love onely what is your own for other things you condemn them the cause unheard And as Agustine observeth of some of like distempered passions though so much the worse as errors in Divinity are worse then errors in Philosophy They know not what is Physick for them and are mad saith he against the Medicine which shouldoure them of their madness Such are many of the besotted Proselytes of seducing Teachers of the present age In respect of such froward and perverse opposites as both they and they leaders for the most part manifest themselves silence may sometimes be more seasonable then Replications and Rejoynders for Quorum dicta contraria si toties refellere velimus quoties obnixa fronte statuerunt non carere quid dicant dum quomodocunque nostris disputationibus contradicant quàm infinitum aerumnosum infructuosum c. Aug. de Civit. Dei l. 2. c. 1. Tom. 1. p. 63. as Augustine putteth the case If we should set our selves to refell the contrary Tenets of those who have hardned their foreheads so as to resolve they will have somewhat to say so they may any way gainsay our disputations how endless how grievous how unprofitable will our trouble be Eighthly If there were a necessity that Mr. O. should be further answered by you or some body for you you have three Sons the youngest of whom would be able enough to undertake him by an Examination and Conviction of his Examination of error and slander of pride and vanity but neither would I have any of them put to so unprofitable a Task because I hear they are all of them dayly employed in better work Therefore Ninthly If after these Animadversions upon him and his Book it be requisite to take any further course to take down the Tympany of Mr. O. his swelling self-conceit I shall propose it to the serious considerations of our Venerable Society at their meeting at Kenelmworth to invite him to a publick Disputation there once again to be ordered and managed according to the Rules forementioned So you have mine advice as you desired with what I further promised for which if any thing be worthy of your acceptance and theirs who are our Brethren in interest and affection to the cause wherein you first and