well Bishops and Priestes and not these newe Aldermen which albeit they bee mute in pulpits yet are they mouthy inough in Consistories The opinion of Augustine concerning the estate of bishops is sufficiently knowen for hee thrusteth them among heretickes that deny their superioritie In which croude let this Libeller and his fellowe T. C. goe packe out of the Church together with Aerius their ringleader and an olde master of an hospitall and a famous hereticke himselfe was also a bishop and gouerned his clergie and church with as great power as nowe doe our byshops neither doeth he in eyther of the places 2 De opere monach c. 16. de ciuit der lib. 19. c. 19. quoted say any thing against them Hee condemneth not the state of bishops but their worldlinesse and not the dignitie of bishops but such as sought honour and would not endure labour which negligence wee doe not defend in any neither was hee so scrupulous in distinguishing ciuill and ecclesiastiall causes as these seeme to be for in his booke de opere Monachorum alledged by this Petitioner he doth declare that hee dealt himselfe in ciuill causes notwithstanding he was a bishop and that he hoped God woulde reward him for it Neither is there in 3 In Tit. ad Ocean Hieroms whole workes any worde sounding to the disgrace of bishoppes Hierome maketh the termes of Bishops and Priestes common in the Apostles time but that bishops and priestes should nowe be equall in power and dignitie hee neuer concluded nay hee saith that the superioritie of bishops is an Apostolicall 1 Ep. 85. tradition and borrowed of the analogie betwixt the Lawe and the Gospell and confesseth that it began in the Apostles time accordingly hee vseth Damasus Bishop of Rome and all bishops with great respect The authoritie and credite of Ambrose both with the Emperour and people and his iurisdiction in ecclesiasticall causes was farre greater then that which our Bishops haue Is it then thinke you likely that a bishop woulde speake against Bishops nay he is sayde himselfe to haue exercised the Church censures against the Emperour and giueth ordination to Bishops and calleth them the Apostles successors The place of Ambrose commonly alledged 2 Ep. 33. against Bishops ciuill iurisdiction maketh nothing against the state of Bishops for in England no Bishop hath ciuill iurisdiction as hee is a Bishop but as hee hath it by commission which to refuse were not onely a weakening but a deniall of loyaltie neither doth Ambrose forbid any to take ciuill iurisdiction but to followe worldly cares and to giue ouer their ministerie and as diuers of this faction haue done to throwe off the robes of the ministerie and to runne in their lether Ierkins after worldly gaine and pleasure That Ambrose esteemed highly the office of bishops is apparant for hee 3 In eph 4. saith that those that are nowe called bishops succeede in the charge and place of gouernment of the Apostles Chrysostome taketh to himselfe the power of excommunication yeeldeth to bishops the power of ordeining 4 In 1. Tim 4. epist Paul ad Philip. homil ad pop Antioch ministers ouer whom he giueth them authoritie himselfe was a bishop of great power and authoritie hee condemneth certaine heretikes which would not yeelde the due titles to bishops but called them onely 5 In Psal 13. reuerentia tua dignitas tua and such like termes condemned by Chrysostome reuerend and worshipfull euen like to the platformers what shame then haue these fellowes that blush not to make either so holy a bishop contrary to himselfe or manifestly to belye him and slaunder him wherefore let the words of Chrysostem against bishops be brought forth if hee bring them not Hom. 2. in epist ad Phil. euery man will take him for a plaine false coyner of authorities which nowe is in part apparant he saith that the names of bishops and priests were all one but that all bishops and priests should haue equall authoritie he saith not nor euer thought That Gregory the great is alledged against bishops is a matter most miraculous for in his time the bishoppes of Rome were come to extraordinarie greatnes incroched not only vpon their neighbors but also vpō most christian Churches so far was he frō condēning the state of bishops in the preface to his dialogues if they be his as is most vnlike he reprehendeth those that waxed old in worldly desires which neither in bishops nor other is to be alowed against episcopal authoritie he saith nothing the power of bishops ouer priests euery wherein his epistles he commendeth The quotation out of Hillary maketh nothing to the purpole hee reprehendeth Constantius the Emperor for aduancing bishops aboue the degree of bishops but that maketh for bishops and not against them for hee disaloweth not the state but the Emperors too much forwardnesse in giuing Arrian bishops too much honour and credite The Libeller hath a strange sight in 1 Ep. 67. Synesius if he thinke that he spake any thing against bishops percase he had on his 2 Those dreames that passe through horny doores as Homer feigneth are vntrue for horne is not trans parent horne spectacles when hee read them without such sight nothing is to be found in Synesius against our cause If he would haue made any conclusion out of him he would haue acknowledged so much him selfe He alledgeth with like iudgment Nazianzen his oration aduersus Maximum yet in all his works is there not any such oration found there is an oration of such matters as Gregory did against Maximus but concerning the superioritie of bishops there is nothing therein least of all any thing against bishops neither is it like he would speake against bishops himself being a bishop alowing the state of bishops he gouerned with authoritie his 1 Cum auctoritate hic praesidemus haec multis ex vobis tamquam lege sancimus Nazianz. in orat de modest in disputat seruanda words were obserued as lawes in the church he saith 2 Ibidem there is order while bishops commaund and others are ruled of such as these felowes are that wil neither obserue order nor rule he complaineth and commendeth that which they despise only he speaketh against ambitious seeking the greatest bishopricks and highest places wishing that the principality should be remoued rather then such incōueniences admitted Origene 3 In Esaiam hom 6. giueth most ample titles authority to bishops euen in the same place where he is supposed to speake against thē onely he would not haue them insult nor tyrannise ouer the people which the bishops of England neither doe nor can doe according to lawes but the Aldemen of the consistorie whose word is proofe and will law and against whose wrongs there is no sufficient remedie by appeale they do properly tyrannife yea oligarchize and therefore against such cruell tyrants Origen declaymeth and we
some mē that deale modestly a cloake to couer seditious persōs that deale factiously maliciously The lawes canōs which he mētioneth are vtterly mistakē Behold I pray you the mās simple skil first saith he there is a 2 32. q.r.c. apud law that womē should not sue their husbāds for adultery But in the place he quoteth there is no such matter nay which is worse Gratiā whō he quoteth hath no authority of law In that place there is mētion made that the womā shal not accuse her husband for adultery to haue him put to death which this wisard vnderstood not but thought thē to be forbiddē to sue their husbands for adultery But the 1 Gloss ibid. glosse telleth him that the contrary of that is law and the practise of ecclesiasticall courtes is contrary and so hath alwayes bene and many at this day doe sue their husbands in causes of diuorce for adultery The 2. 2 24. q. 2. c. vlt. Canon which he citeth and affirmeth to be contrary to Gods lawe is that heretikes after their death shoulde bee excommunicate But first it doth not appeare that it is lawe with vs. for as I haue already told him Gratian is no law So that I cannot but wonder what blockish conceite came into this mans distempered braine to talke of canon law that knoweth not what is law Besides it doth not appeare that this was practised before the statute of 25. H. 8 19. lastly the same is not cōtrary to Gods word for to the memory of wicked heretikes such as Arrius Eutyches Nestorius Macedonius Paulus of Samosata we say Anathema And if the libeller say not so he is a looser companion then I tooke him for The 3. Canon that he 3 30. q. 3. c. pitatium affirmeth to be cōtrary to Gods law and not to ours is that spirituall kindred shal hinder mariage But both is the same direct cōtrary to our lawes that only respect the degrees of cōsanguinity affinity such like as are mentioned in Leuit. not to Gods law where they list to vse it we allow no degrees of kinred to hinder mariage but such as are noted in Leuiticus Nor is it an offence against Gods lawe for some ciuil or domestical cause other then degrees of kindred to forbid mariage for some time with some persons And therefore they of 4 Ordonances de Geneue Geneua albeit they account the mariage of cosins germaine lawful yet thinke them not conuenient He alledgeth also certain canons that enioyne Clearks to fast 7 whole weekes before Easter forbid them to fast on thursday But that they were vsually obserued in England before that statute he sheweth not Neither doth he rightly quote the places So that if these malecōtent disciplinariās meane to speake hereafter against ecclesiasticall lawes they must sende vs foorth some wiser man then this libeller to speake in their cause for hee is but a simple fellowe to dispute and vnderstandeth iust nothing in lawe and very little in honestie That in king Henry and king Edwardes dayes order was taken for the collection together of lawes in vse is granted but that they meant to correct lawes in vse which this libeller doeth insinuate or did confesse that there be infinite corruptions in ecclesiasticall lawes which he affirmeth cannot be proued I will not longer stand vpon this point for that I haue spoken of it already and the same is beside the libellers purpose which should proue that Vdall and his consortes offend not against the statute of Eliz. 23. aboue mentioned But his reasons are all too weake for eyther stand they vpon false groundes or else are they mis-shapen and euil featured That which he saith of Wickleffe Suinderby Tindall Hooper Barnes Latimer and others whom he chargeth with speaking against the state of the Church and common wealth is vtterly vntrue let the places be shewed and their wordes set downe For in these that already are brought forth there is no such matter conteined they doe not call our lawes antichristian nor disgrace the gouernement of the prince nor condemne the superioritie of bishops nor raile at the preachers of the Gospel and gouernors of Christes church they neuer framed libels nor inuectiues against the state nor euer sought to haue a new found gouernement established in the church and albeit they inueigh against the manners of men and corruptions of those times yet shall you not finde any that hath written in Martins satyrical and doogeon stile nor that sought to haue either Church or state turned vpside-downe or committed to the direction of the common sorte compare them with these late rimers libellers and firebrands of sedition you shall see a wonderfull difference Further saith he some finde fault with the forfeiture of traytors landes some with the short returne of writs others with pluralities of fermes and engrossing of Mannors others with racking of rents and diuers other lawes and customes admit they did yet is not the fact of one an excuse for the offence of others we liue by lawes not by examples But it cannot be shewed that any euer so raged with malice against lawes as the Martinists did and doe those percase spake against some one or two lawes and that modestly submitting themselues to the controlement of their superiors they railed not against gouernors nor lanced them with malicious libels nor sought innouation but redresse of things disordered to all these examples therefore of Wickleffe Suinderby Hooper Barnes Latimer and those that haue found fault with some abuses in lawe I answere first that it is one thing to desire the reformation of some one abuse and another to desire the subuersion both of all ecclesiastical gouernors and lawes which cannot be without a dangerous innouation of state secondly that the course of the proceeding of those that haue spoken against mens manners and some one lawe is farre different from these mens doings and writings that striue for the new kingdome of the Consistorie lastly that Wickleffe Suinderby Tyndal Barnes Hooper Latimer spake against the corruptions of papisticall Bishops both in doctrine and manners yet neuer did they seeke for a new consistorial gouernement nor did they libell against the gouernors the lawes the state This is but the Consistorian stile lately founde out and practised by lewde lozels and satyricall backebiters of good men for which if no other punishment be laid on them yet they shall surely answere at the last dreadfull day if they repent and amend not Further it is a shamefull course though greatly pleasing these mens humors to take that which good men spake against pompous and tyrannicall Bishops that gouerned at pleasure and gaue ouer preaching altogether and to apply the same against Pishops that neither so excell in wealth but that many base scriuanos and marchants yea shoemakers and taylors surpasse thē nor in power but that meane companions abuse them are not popish tyrants but preachers of the
contra tyrannos whom many affirme to bee Beza or Hotoman doth giue power to the subiectes not onely to resist but also to depose and kill the prince if he oppugne Gods lawes and religion whereof they make their discipline a glorious part That this was the opinion of them of Geneua is apparant by the wordes of 4 In an Epistle sent from Die p. hist scotl Knoxe who not onely allowed the doctrine but put it in fragrant practise in Scotland Neyther may we thinke that our platformers haue dissented from their masters Fenner in his booke of diuinitie which Th. Cartw. so well liketh that hee calleth the doctrine of it the vndubitable rules of heauenly Canaan 5 Theolog. Fen p. 186. saith that in euery common wealth there ought to be by the law of God certaine Ephori or magistrates which ought to haue as in Sparta they had authoritie not onely to ouerrule but also to depose the prince According to their doctrine they haue proceeded in writing speaking doing Martin most shamefully rayleth at the present gouernement and wisheth 1 Epitome of Martin that the parliament woulde bring in the eldership notwithstanding her Maiesties resisting it viz. by a rebellion They made diuerse meetings they inueyghed against the state in their publike and priuate speeches in the ende they procured throughout the Realme certayne subscriptions themselues bragged of a hundred thousande handes In playne tearmes they talked of 2 Wight massacring of their aduersaries And Snape in one of his letters sayeth what will you say if wee ouethrowe the Bishops and that gouernement in one day Their further malice appeareth in the Epistle before their leude demonstrations of discipline when all things were readie out startes Hackets two prophetes to mooue the people to rebellion that what they coulde not haue by intreatie they might winne by treason and rebellion That they intended the deliuerie of certaine factious persons committed to prison and to erect the presbyteries and to suppresse the gouernours and lawes their letters examinations and writings doe declare And yet forsooth this ignorant fellowe holdeth thar they neuer went about to mooue any stirre or rebellion percase hee thought these matters had not bene knowen Seuenthly he obiecteth further that if his clientes intende rebellion then the lawes also and bishops doe intende rebellion for that they expect likewise further reformation But the case is vnlike Good men desire reformation of manners by execution of good lawes and supplie of imperfections They stand for the state they withstand all innouations they proceede orderly These fellowes contrariwise seeke the ouerthrowe of infinite lawes of infinite officers and that by reuelling and disorder they seeke the establishment of an vncouth and vnknowen gouernement by faction and conspiracie odious to all states and good men Neyther can hee shroud his clyents vnder master Nowels authoritie for they want much of his learning and honestie and farre diuerse is that eldership hee meaneth from this packe of elders that they desire Neither because printers sell popish bookes by which some are mooued to discontentment doth it follow that therefore it is lawful to mooue discontentment for neyther may they sell them but to men knowen and licenced without punishment nor are all popish bookes of one sort As for Doctor Percy I thinke he doth not set foorth newe lawes nor newe common wealthes but for ease and introduction of students doth gather a summe of all lawes in force but the libellers furious mates would burne them and vtterly ouerthrow law that we might depend vpon the variable oracles of the presbyterie which he seeketh to erect Eightly hee addeth that many doe maintaine papistes and traitors and yet doe not mooue discontentment vnto which I am content that hee maketh his clyentes like for I doe not knowe any in England that hath procured the discharge of more recusants and that not gratis or more holpen them then certaine capitall and principall puritanes The libeller knoweth whome I meane The exception is friuolous and false for neyther are they to bee allowed that maintayne papistes nor puritanes or that procure their discharge Nor may we thinke but that they that maintaine them meane no good to the state and therefore let the gentle dunse aduise hereafter what hee sayeth and not disgrace his best friendes nor lye to no purpose nor benefite of his cause And finally let him not say our argumentes are nought vnlesse hee reply better hitherto hee hath sweate and sayde nothing yea and when hee hath sweate out all his wit yet can he not answere any one title of our reasons The reason that hee setteth downe is his owne reason and is senceles in deed and proceedeth from a man voyd of wisedome learning and honestie But the same set downe in good tearmes will make him in deede ashamed but not as he saith to answere it but because hee cannot answere it No though he professe to speake for the innocent He should haue sayd in the cause of the dumbe for so are the wordes of T. C. his masters text But his clyentes they haue spoken too much and wish themselues they had bene dumbe Now albeit they be not mute yet he taketh them to be innocent and that in his opinion Is not this a worthy fellow thinke you that opposeth his fond and loose opinion against the euidence of witnesses verdict of the iurie sentence of the iudge But what shoulde we looke for other at these mens handes whose braue consistorie and all their learning standeth on 3 or 4 mens opinions But let vs heare what he bringeth to answere our obiections and for discharge of his clyentes that stand at the barre He sayth that Martin where he threatneth that Doctor Bridges shall haue xx fistes about his eares meaneth that many shall write against him A goodly comment As if puritanes wrote with fists rather then fingers which may very well bee for their writing is seditious rude and vnciuill To prooue that Martin meaneth so he alledgeth first that Martin is no Atheist nor papist But there is great doubt of papisme and flat proofe of atheisme for who scoffeth at religion but Atheists and peruerteth scriptures in scorne but such as beleeue no God Secondly he saith xx is too few to make a rebellion But the patch might vnderstād that one is inough to begin a mutinie And that if D. Bridges shall haue xx fistes against him their meaning is that others shall haue many more about them for I thinke their quarrell is not onely against D. Bridges In the ende the libeller seeing his cause desperate saith that hanging is too good for Martin which I yeelde vnto and assigne the libeller for his paynes to be the executioner And thus the noble Martin viz. I. Penry I. Vd. I. F. all Iohns and I. Thr. that all concurred in making of Martin must by sentence of the libeller if they had any euill purpose goe to the gybet to feede Rauens That
4 5. Eliz. c. 1. Ex officio by any Ordinarie to a Clarke the refusall whereof is verie penall In the register in the title Consultation diuers cases are founde where the Iudges ecclesiasticall procceding ex officio is allowed Why then may not ecclesiasticall commissioners proceede Ex officio and minister othes For that which this accuser sayth that for matters of felonie they examine men vpon their othes is false For with these cases they doe not meddle If the articulator can proue they doe why doeth he not declare it seeing he may thereby procure them that hurt which he desireth Article 12 No man shoulde be cited to a spirituall courte to depose therein as witnesse For this is extortion and tort to the partie Fitz. iust ofp. p. 172. Cromp. 219. Answere Neither is any cited ad iurandum or to depose but ad testificandum which neither the author of the Articles nor any else can deny to bee lawfull For neither is this libeller nor any man to bee credited without an othe Somewhat this smatterer hath heard but hee cannot cite it right For both the Register and Fitzherbert the author of this opinion doeth allowe othes in causes testamentarie and matrimoniall And it is the common practise and euer was in all causes and courtes And himselfe confesseth so much in the next accusation But the obiection he cannot hit When hee obiecteth right hee shall haue his answere more at full Now it is sufficiēt to say that which euery lawyer that knoweth any lawe can tell him that seeing by the lawes of England many causes are heard in Ecclesiasticall courtes which cannot bee decided without witnesses the calling of witnesses is necessarie Article 13 No Bishoppe ought to appoynt a man to appeare before him to take an othe ex Officio sauing in matters of marriages and willes Answere Many wayes the ignorance of this man that would gladly shewe his skill in lawe appeareth For wee say not in termes of lawe that a man taketh an othe ex officio but that the Iudge proceeding sometime Ex Officio sometime otherwise doeth minister an othe to the partie Againe the bishop doeth not appoynt men to appeare before him but calleth them by proces of lawe But these are but errors in termes A grosser fault it is that he mistaketh lawe For not whatsoeuer Fitzherbert setteth downe is lawe in this case especially of prohibition For nothing is more ordinarie then to reuerse prohibitions by consultations The meaning of the wordes of Fitzherbert or rather of the Register whence he drewe his writte was That men should not bee called into ecclesiasticall courtes to confirme any contract concerning goods or chattels by othe by which meanes the ecclesiastical court encroched vpon other courtes Onely causes Matrimoniall and Testamentarie in that case for to other it cannot bee extended were excepted That in matter of Tithes and other causes men answered vpon their othes is euident for that the 1 Art Cler. 9. Edw. 2. c. 12. Kings tenants as well as others answered before Ordinaries and were by them also excommunicate for their contumacie In matters of Tithes the 2 27. H. 8. contemners of the ecclesiasticall processe by statute are condemned and may bee forced to obey And in another statute it is decreed That the 3 32. H. 8. Ordinarie may conuent such as withholde Tythes according to to the lawes ecclesiasticall Likewise the ecclesiasticall Iudge may by statute proceede against those that 4 Eliz. c. 2. violate the lawes concerning vniformitie of Common prayer yea Fitzherbert 5 Nou. Natur breu fol. 63. graunteth that an ecclesiasticall Iudge may exact a caution iuratorie before he deliuer a man that is in prison vpon the writte De excommunicato capiendo False it is therefore that this bolde and blinde bayarde sayth That byshops boldlie presume against lawe Nay he and his companions boldly presume both against lawe and common humanitie for both doe they runne into fellonies and treasons and also speake against lawes and defend their doinges and raile against others that gently put them in minde of their faultes Article 14 Morning and Euening prayer should be read euery day throughout the yeere but are not Answere How knoweth hee that Morning and Euening prayer is not said If he had frequented Churches so diligently as he ought to haue done he might haue vnderstood the contrary But where it is not said I thinke he liketh vs not the worse for that For no sort of men I except not the Iesuites doe more bitterly raile against our booke and order of Common prayer then his consorts doe And yet this wil I proue that the worst of those prayers are more Christianlike then their extemporall prayers made of broken sighes and sentences for the most part and full fraught with malice and other passions To say nothing of confusion But suppose prayers were not said euery day let him shew where they are so commanded For the Communion booke commandeth them not so peremptorily to be read as the accuser anoweth but alloweth the Curat to omit them when he is lette either with priuate studie or other necessary busines which exception he hath quite forgotten and left out as for Prayers they be in most places vsed and would be more if they were not by these contentious fellowes despised Article 15 The Curate must tolle a Bell yet doeth not he but the Sexten Answere A bloudie fault and great pitie that the Presbyterie with their bels and bables were not admitted if for nothing else yet to take order that belles might bee tolled The preface to the Communion booke doeth onely will the Curate to doe it or to appoynt one to doe it And so it is in most places And if he did it not yet is he not in fault but the parishioners that against his wil appoynt a Sexten that is not at his commandement This Article tendeth as all the practises of puritanes doe to the disgrace of the Ministery whom they would put to all base offices and yet you my masters of the ministerie both see them and suffer them to abuse you and your function Article 18 The people are to answere the Priest and to say Amen Yet doeth the Clarke answere alone in most places Answere If this Accuser had good matter he would not spare that taketh such paines to finde a knot in a rushe picketh quarrels where no cause is For both it is false which he saith that the people answereth not and were it true yet is it not the bishops or others fault but the peoples that will not attend the prayers and say Amen Percase some are phantasticall persons and condemne our forme of prayers some are phrenetical and vnderstand not more fitte to be prayed for then to pray Article 17 Where there is singing there the lessons should be sung in a plaine tune c. Answere Nothing doeth more displease the puritans then church-musicke and singing yet this accuser
al men of learning 56 In the rules of French discipline it is enacted by the Synodicall assemblie that no Minister shall possesse landes houses or tythes wherein they declare that Ministers must liue on almes and their wiues and children be turned on begging what man then hath not good cause to detest this odious discipline that doeth not onely ouerthrowe the Ministerie but the mariage of Ministers also by a necessarie consequent 57 Finally to shut vp all in one Article these men if they be not looked into will ouerthrowe religion her Maiesties authoritie the honour of the state the rewardes of learning the studie of artes and diuinitie both the vniuersities the hope of vertue the lawes of England and many priuate mens interestes I woulde say the Church also but that euery man is desirous that the same may hee ruinated but let them that seeke the spoiles of others take heede that they be not afterwarde made a spoyle themselues It is a common saying 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and oftentimes the spoylers are spoyled If I shoulde prosecute the whole course of their proceedings and lay it downe in Articles as the Libeller hath begonne I shoulde but wearie you with needelesse repetitions as the Libeller hath done alreadie this is sufficient to shewe vnto you that we want not Articles against these fellowes whensoeuer their cause shall come to audience yea Articles materiall and concludent and farre vnlike to the friuolous and ridiculous Articles deuised by the Libeller His Articles haue no sequel Iudge I pray you and consider of them all of them tend to this ende to shewe that some of the Ecclesiasticall state haue offended against lawes in small trifles and are to be punished which were it granted yet doeth it not followe that a new gouernement is to be embraced and the state altered which is his principall desire and seeking Contrariwise our Articles doe shewe that both their gouernement is vniust and disordered and their opinions lewde and fantasticall and their practises seditious and therefore neither to be tollerated which is that which not onely we desire but the peaceable maintenance of the state requireth and enforceth And I doubt not but all those that giue themselues to the studie of lawes or other learning or fauour the state considering these matters will hereafter discerne who they are that would ouerthrowe her maiesties lawes and that not in vaine diuers haue gone about to withstand their lewd proceedings Hauing made an end of his Articles he declareth That his purpose was onely to redeeme her maiesties lawes from captiuitie of the clergie But he abuseth first his reader for his whole booke declareth that his purpose was rather to ouerthrowe lawes then to establishe them secondly the whole Ministerie of of the Church whom he chargeth with suppressing of lawes when all men knowe that their onely desire is that lawes may be executed He would also make them more base and odious and yet nothing can be more contemtible miserable then they haue made the whole ministerie by their odious practises For wealth and riches marchants artificers husbandmen commonly goe beyond thē Fewe leaue any thing behinde them they pay foure times more to her maiestie thē any state of mē that are most charged pay it most willingly They are wronged of euery man what would these men haue more vnlesse they seeke their liues how thē did he not shame to say that the clergie keepeth her maiesties lawes in captiuitie or how shamed he not to speake of captiuity seeing not they but the Lords of the cōsistorie keepe lawes ministers subiectes yea princes in captiuitie Trauers in his booke against Bridges doeth vaunt that they had alreadie brought diuers princes vnder their yoke and excommunicated them They say as the Pope said that they haue power to giue ouer all princes to satan to bring in their constitutions they would ouerthrowe all lawes their onely will against all lawes must preuaile He further calleth the Cleargie carnall worldlings He I say whose workes are fleshlie whofe consortes are swollen with surfet and whose portion is in this world calleth others carnall worldlings and as if he were in a bedlem fitt cryeth out in his lunatike stile O England England how long wilt thou endure these carnall worldlings A strange matter that such presumptuous companions should either dare or daring be suffered to raile against the whole Ministerie or that any that is in the Ministerie or toward it should fauour this faction that bendeth all their force against learned men and Ministers or finally that any should either imagine that these men did entend reformation or endure to heare such lewde companions to call themselues authors of reformation can malicious libelling seditious practises counterfect hypocrisie notorious crueltie exceeding pride and vanitie stand with reformation no no. and therefore let this libeller that desireth to haue faithfull true English hearted men to examine these things obteine his purpose and let them examine both the ecclesiasticall state and these hypocriticall pretenders of reformation what bribes they haue taken what extortion they haue committed what tenants they haue racked what they haue purchased what they haue spent in ryote what landes they haue receaued from their ancestors what they haue left to their successors what offices they haue borne what wrōgs they haue done I doubt not but all the factious sorte will soone repent them of this course especially when it shall be shewed that their heartes are scarce English that misliking all English lawes embrace a packe of outlandish vanities that they seeke nothing but the desolation both of church countrie the ouerthrowe of her maiesties lawes honor and the confusion of the vniuersities and all men of learning And thus much sufficeth to haue answered concerning the petitioners articles resteth nowe that I answere also his interogatories and questions that hee may bee the better satisfied and you may the better conceiue of the mans ignorance and malice If diuers things bee againe repeated and rubbed ouer blame not me but blame the babbling fellowe that drewe me to it seeing he obiecteth I could doe no lesse then answere you that haue heard his demaundes with patience heare I pray you my answere hee calleth himselfe Putcase vnder the name of Putcase you shall heare the summe of his demandes and questions CERTAINE QVESTIONS AND INTERROgatories Putcase drawen by a fauourer of reformation c. Wherein he desireth to bee resolued which the Printer hath thought good here to annexe THe course is very odious and not to be suffered Answere for if euery leud questioner might frame cases against religion or lawes neyther shall religion nor lawe maintaine due credite And if euery libeller might lawfully make demaunds sounding to the infamie of gouernours and magistrates and their doings bee traduced by infamous interrogatories it would worke in short time great hatred and confusion His first fault therefore is this that hee
new gouernement at pleasure nor doth any of them doubt but that the gouerment of the Church of England is Apostolicall and that the gouernement by elders is both new and fantasticall Quaere Putcase Quaest 36. if Iohn at Stile shoulde grant there was a gouernement by elders in the primitiue Apostolicall and best Church and shoulde call the same gouernement a popedome and tyrannie whether this did not rankly smell of detestable atheisme If Iohn at Stile should say as much as this libeller hath said in his libell Answere hee might percase change his stile and bee called Iohn at Gibet for these bee matters worthy Gibets but concerning this matter I thinke Iohn at Stile will not say that there was euer such a packe of Church-aldermen as this faction vseth in their Consistories And if hee should say so hee should say vntrueth neyther were the Elders in the primitiue Church or after other then Apostles and ministers of the worde All the ancient Fathers were ignorant of this newe gouernment yet was it not Atheisme in them to say it as this wicked and hypocriticall Atheist auoweth nor are these Atheistes that impugne the fonde Consistorie or that affirme that the newe gouernment is tyrannie nay which is worse that it is meere foolerie but those that wrest Gods worde and lye shamefully to proue it For what more sottish sencelesse gouernment can there be then to make clownes iudges of learning religion and controuersies of diuinitie or more absurde then to refuse that gouernment that euer was in the church Quaere whether the Churches in Scotlande France Put-case Quest 38. the lowe countreyes Hungary Poland Bohemia Saxony Heluetia and the County Palatine of Rhene and whether Zuinglius Oecolampadius Melancthon Bucer Caluin Zanchus Martyr infinite other the most excellent diuines in all the world commending the continuance of the Eldership be all Anabaptistes Puritans rebellious Traytors Marstates Marlawes Marprinces and Maralles and D. Bancroft M. Sutcliffe c the onely good subiectes in all the worlde As we do not willingly condemne other churches in their gouernment Answere so we thinke Beza and others might haue done more wisely discretely not so rashly to haue censured ours especially pronouncing without hearing both parties and sitting iudge in his owne cause and speaking neither good diuinitie nor good lawe nor good reason yet we say if any of these aboue named should in this state go about to place the eldership so contrary to a monarchicall regiment he should haue done therein no good office nor discharged the ductie of a wise man this I say further that this libeller doeth make most shamefull lyes where hee nameth many churches and many learned men as fauourers of the new Eldership whereas in trueth they neuer knewe what it meant It is not in Saxonye Bohemia Polande Hungary nor in many places in the low countreyes and where it is the same continueth with small profit and much displeasure The countie Palatine of Rhene hath after many styrres cōditionally receiued it Heluetia neuer had it neither Oecolampadius nor Zuinglius nor Melancthon euer knew it nor I thinke the rest What a shamelesse fellow then was this thus impudently to lye nay Saxony hath superintendents and so sometimes had Scotlande and Tossane they say is generall superintendent of all the Palsgraues dominions concerning Church causes and the Churches of Strangers in Englande in King Edwardes dayes had superintendents Melancthon and Zanchus liked our bishops and therefore none of these are like to our factious Puritans And as for Doctor Bancroft and my selfe they cannot say but that wee are good subiectes nor note vs with any disloyaltie But beside vs the least of thousandes there are infinite more good subiectes and learned men of which nomber the Puritans are none all which stande against the factious gouernment of the Elderships maintaine the ancient apostolicall orders of the Church That the best Diuines in the worlde should hold with the Eldership is a fancy for all the ancient Fathers were ignorant of it and the godly martyrs of our land in Queene Maries time refused it beside them infinite learned men all which hold with bishops which these condemne chuse you therefore whether you will follow all antiquitie or Th. Cartwright Giles Wigg Iohn Penry Tauergius Caluetus and such tagrag fellowes percase great fauourers of the church-aldermen but neyther wise nor learned Quaere Put-case Quest 39. whether the Kings of France and Scotlande the princes of Condè and Orenge the duke of Saxony the countie palatine of Rhene the States of the lowe countreyes many other Dukes Princes Marquesses Earles Barons and other christian and noble potentates who haue mainteined fauoured and preferred the Ministers that stand for reformation and whether here in England the right honorable sir Nicolas Bacon Lord keeper the Erles of Bedford Warwicke and Leycester Sir Francis Walsingham Sir Amias Paulet Sir Walter Mildemay and other right noble Lordes Counsellours Countes and Countesses woulde haue countenanced and protected the Ministers that seeke reformation if they had perceiued them to bee enemies to the Queene and state worse then papistes and miscreants and whether our Prelates bee more trustie to her Maiestie and prouident to auoyde danger then these excellent personages were This argument for the consistory is drawen from the opinion of courtiers men of warre Bellipotentes sunt magis quà m sapientipotentes Ennius apud Cicer. 2. diuinat therfore seemeth to me strange in diuinitie howsoeuer it is approued as good in the consistorie that dependeth on opinion and is turned as the cloudes with the winde If the same were any thing worth then might the heresie of Arrius yea Paganisme bee confirmed also to bee as good religion as the consistorian discipline for many Emperours Kings noble men dukes countes countesses captaines yea whole States haue embraced Paganisme and condemned Christian religion and fauoured idolatrous priests and persecuted christians Constantius and all his court for the most part most of his dominions embraced Arianisme And what wonder if diuers noble men and women embraced this fantasticall Discipline for whome would not the demure countenance sober sighes and out drawen speech of these hypocrites abuse wherefore let this libeller ground him selfe vpon these mens courtly fauour muster an army ready to fight for discipline let him haue his captaines officers his marshals lieutenants ensignes sergeantes corporals drummers and fifes and let him make his aldermen gunners for if they could looke with one eye they would proue most excellent in that facultie shooting so well at randon about interpretation of scriptures hauing so long layne battering downe our State I say all these mens opinions without authoritie of Scripture wey not one pepper graine Hee is a simple man that will die in that religion that most of these fauourers of Discipline which this man hath named did and most simple that will thinke the
subiectes to reforme religion when princes will not yea rather then faile euen by force of armes 36 Quaere 2 Ibidem pag. 217. 234. 256 258. c. whether Iohn Knoxe and other his adherents grounding thēselues vpon the foresaid opinions cōcerning violent reformation did not by priuate motion without any authoritie put in practise a strange manner of reformation in Scotland and whether our disciplinarians doe not intend such a practise in England and if they doe whether they thinke that this course of theirs and these their rules of discipline will stand with Gods word or good orders 37 Quaere whether Beza was not the author or amplifier or publisher of the booke intituled De iure magistratuum in subditos a booke which ouerthroweth in effect all the authoritie of Christian kings and magistrates and whether the doctrine therein conteined be agreeable to the rules of that discipline which they haue so greatly vrged the same question is demaunded likewise of the booke called Vindiciae contra tyrannos a booke conteining no lesse pernicious matter against the authoritie of princes then the former 38 Quaere 3 Epist to Goodmans booke whether Master Whittingham that affirmed that the doctrine of Goodmans booke printed at Geneua in queene Maries time against the regiment of women and for exciting the subiectes to take armes against their soueraine princes in some cases was approoued to be good and godly by the chiefest men of learning that then were in the citie said therein either truely or Christianlike or schollerlike 39 Quaere whether the English disciplinarians that were at Geneua in Queene Maries time according to the said 1 Goodman pag. 73. 74. sequ and booke of Obedi pag. 99. 103. doctrine then there allowed of taught not that the nobilitie of England ought to reforme religion by force of armes and rather then faile to put the Queene then 2 Goodman pag. 99. 114. 115. sequen reigning to death and whether this point of doctrine be one of the principles of their new discipline and disciplinarian kingdome holden of most and professed of those that liue in free cities and states not subiect to kingly regiment 40 Quaere whether the said disciplinarian ministers and faction did not holde it lawfull according to the said 3 Goodman pag. 196. 87. 34. 35 185. 180 184. c. Geneuian doctrine That if the noble men and other inferiour Magistrates for feare should refuse to reforme religion as is mentioned the rest of the people might doe it in that case themselues and whether this be one of the axiomes of Th. Cartwrightes heauenly Canaan and a decision of their disciplinarian Synodes 41 Quaere whether the saide disciplinarians haue not taught publikely in bookes rather then there should be no reformation such as they wished that any priuate man hauing forsooth some extraordinarie motion or calling like that percase of Hacket might embrewe his handes with the blood of his 4 Goodman pag. 115. 199. 200. of obedience pag. 116. 110. souereigne according to the examples of Phinehes Ahud and such like 42 Quaere whether the reasons alledged by Knoxe and Wollocke against their gouerner and prince were sufficient in lawe for the subiectes to depose a prince 5 Histor of the Church of Scotland pag. 272. 278. or a regent lawfully appointed as they and others their followers did depose the Queene regent of Scotland and whether their allegations and doings are catholike rules of discipline for all times and all Churches 43 Quaere whether by the lawes of their new disciplinarian kingdome it be not as lawfull to depose a king from his seate and crowne for dealing in causes ecclesiasticall which they entend and affirme not to belong vnto him as it was for them of Geneua to depose their Bishop which was also their liege Lorde and prince from his temporall right and liuing for 1 Caluin to Sadolete dealing in causes temporall albeit he was by right of succession the temporall Lorde and owner of that citie and territorie 45 Quaere whether the doctrine conteined in a 2 Declaration anno 1582. Declaration printed in Scotland why certeine persons mere subiectes repaired to the king at Ruthuen one reason of that forcible repaire being for that the king tooke vpon him to deale in causes ecclesiasticall be agreeable to the catholike doctrine of their discipline 46 Quaere whether the practises of certeine ministers in Scotland for the setting vp of their presbyteries by their owne authoritie as they are described in the actes of parliament helde there Anno 1584 and published in print are iustifiable by Gods word and to be helde for generall rules of discipline to be practised in all Churches 47 Quaere whether that be true that is reported in the Chronicles of Scotland which were perused and corrected by Master Randal Master Killigrew and Doctor Hammond concerning an other repaire made to the king of Scors at 3 Chronicle pag. 446 sequent Sterling and whether the proclamation there mentioned and the actions which then happened be agreeable to the doctrine of the disciplinarian kingdome taught euery where or els be but extraordinarie and locall and onely there to be put in practise where there is good opportunitie offered 48 Quaere whether in France other where they doe not contrary to their opinions for violent reformation of religigion by noble men by the people or priuate persons taught for 30. yeeres and vpwards teach now that it is vtterly vnlawfull for any subiect vnder any pretence of any extraordinarie calling so much as once to lift vp a hand against the prince be he tyrant idolator heretike or whatsoeuer and whether all the rest of the rules of this discipline may not as well be varied by time as this point is and what maner of disciplinarian faith this is that is so inconstant and variable and teacheth sometime obedience and sometime rebellion and like the Chamelion changeth haire so often 49 Quaere whether the wise authors of this petition doe not shew themselues to bee of the disciplinarian humour in this behalfe when they thinke it a sufficient answere in the behalfe of Beza Hotoman Buchanan and others that published the doctrine of stirring the subiectes against their princes to say they write so against popish kings and such as they iudged tyrants as if it were lawfull for subiectes to rebell against such as they account tyrants and popish kings and of T.C. let it be enquired whether he allowe this for one of his cananitish lawes of his celestial consistorie 50 Quaere whether 1 Conspiracy for discipline and examinations taken in the Starre Chamber published T. Cartw. and certaine ministers here his disciples haue not entred into the very same course for setting vp the discipline in England which you shal perceiue by the sayd declaration by the acts of parliamēt in Scotland Anno 1584 and by the English Chronicle that the ministers of Scotland