Selected quad for the lemma: cause_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	bear_v	truth_n	witness_n	3,073	5	8.6773	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A96167	An answer to W.R. his narration of the opinions and practises of the churches lately erected in Nevv-England. Vindicating those Godly and orthodoxall churches, from more then an hundred imputations fathered on them and their church way, by the said W.R. in his booke. Wherein is plainely proved, 1. That the grounds of his narration are sandie and insufficient. 2. That the maner of his handling it, unloving and irregular. 3. That the matter of it, ful of grosse mistakes & divers contradictions. 4. That the quotations extremely wrested, and out of measure abused. 5. That his marginall notes impertinent and injurious. / By Thomas Welde, Pastour of the Church of Roxborough in Nevv-England. This is licensed and entred according to order.	Weld, Thomas, 1590?-1662.	1644 (1644)	Wing W1262; Thomason E3_18; ESTC R2769	70,175	76

of error delivered before all the people So as it is a scandall to the people a reproach to the Minister c. all this is his own addition Then for the other cited Author Answer to 32 q. 78 he deales more grosely with him then the former who is in a manner point-blanck against him yet hee boldly gives him up for an Author his words are these we never knew any Minister that did call upon the people thus to doe i. e. to propound questions and such calling upon them is farre from us some thinke the people have a liberty to aske a question upon very urgent and weighty cause none iudge the ordinary practise of it necessary but if not meekely and wisely carried inconvenient if not utterly unlawfull and therefore such asking of questions is seldome used in any in most Churches neere True it is in the times of the opinions some were bold in this kinde but these men are long since gone the Synod and Sermons have reproved this disorder so that a man may now live from one end of the yeere to another in these congregations and not heare any man opening his mouth in such kind of questions These the Authors words ☞ Now good reader do us the favour to give righteous judgement whether these words cited by him make for him or against him where is 1 giving leave 2 a course of giving leave 3 to any 4 to obiect and urge pro and con and 6 which is horribly grosse to implead the Minister of error at the first dash and that openly before all the people c. Whereas his own cited Authors tells him the contrary 1 That it is done not often but seldome 2 Not many questions but a question 3 Not upon sleight but weighty and very urgent grounds 4 Not rashly and boldly but wisely and meekely 5 And this not per●mptorily concluded of by all but some only thinke they have a liberty 6 And not that it is now so much done but was for a time by the bold opinionist who are now chased away long agoe See what a vast gulfe betwixt the Author and W. R. Now for him to reade over distinctly all these expressions in this booke for that answer was written to himselfe from godly men in New-England yet to produce it as a proofe for his Art and the Marg. which in common sence is contrary to it I stand amazed at it and wonder with what face he could print it or having done it how he can let his book be kept from the fire thus long Yet further note our Narratour undertakes to relate only such Church-courses as are generally by the Churche in New-England practised as pag. 1. title How then can he with honesty bring in this asking of questions amongst such kind of generall Church courses of ours whereas his Author plainely saith this asking of questions is not Generally practised nor by all the Churches but sildome in any Church and in most Churches never at all and that one may live as he saith from one end of the yeere to another in our congregations and not here any man open his mouth in such kind of questions What will not W. R. boldly attempt against his brethren of the independent way and their Churches that cites these very words I have related to prove such Church courses in New-England as are generally practised amongst us Answer to CHAP. XIIII TO Marg. on the Title Some saith he grow shie of the word independent some utterly renounce it yet most owne it Answer If the word bee rightly taken as in Answer to 32. q. 46. it 's expounded for one Church that is not under the power of another or in subjection to a Presbyterie but as having received power from Christ to governe her selfe according to his lawes Then all accord to it But if the word Independent bee abusively taken as it is often with the vulgar for such a Society as are neither subject to Magistracy nor regard the counsel of other Churches but are a conceipted and selfe-sufficient people that stand onely on their owne leggs Then wee have cause to be shie of a word that may render us odious without cause To Marg. of 1 Art That wee have store of imperative Churches who may command yea compell both members and Ministers to act Ans Another slaunder without ground or proofe or truth which I leave here upon record God our consciences and our Brethren bearing us witnesse how tender our Churches are but to perswade men to act without light much more to command or compell both which very words though the thing required were lawfull are odious in the Churches of Christ most fitly becomming the Synagogues of Antichrist Hath hee a lycense to speake any thing To Art 2. We hold our Church power absolute and imperiall Answ All we use to speake of our Church-power is that it is ministeriall which is farre from absolute and imperiall words fitter for Emperours of this world then the Churches of the Saints I charge it on his conscience as in the sight of God either to make this appeare or else vindicate us as becomes an honest Christian to doe And for his two printed Authors cited for we cannot come at his private letters if there be any one word or shew of ground from them to maintaine his speech Let me beare the shame of it for I here avouch the contrary under my hand To Art 3. and Marg. That we deny all representation of Churches absent and all authoritative deputation of Messengers to act for them ●nsw 1. The Reader may well see it is his own saying not ours for he brings no proofe but from Barrow and Johnson who cannot well give in their testimony for our Church waies in New-England because they never came there yea were in their graves both or one long before ever wee had a beeing in New-England 2. There is no truth in it for we hold a Church may delegate some men and send them forth in their names and stead with authority to act for them in this or that particular businesse of trust as Act. 15.2 And yet he hath boldly now twise or thrise affirmed the same thing of us and brings no proofe at all for it and it is answered before cap. 2. Art 3. Marg. Yet some tells us saith he that Mr. P. and Mr. W. were sent hither by the Churches to negotiate for them c. Answ 1. Some tell us Sir you are a man of judgement and gravity able to instruct others You know you may not blemish your brethren and sl●nder Churches upon such poore and weake grounds as it is reported I am informed some tell us And yet how oft in your booke have you used this course of dealing towards your bretbren and their Churches Some tell us indeede is warrant enough for people that have no other businesse to make three farthing bookes of and thereby fill the world with tales but oh farre be

it may be so And yet when he comes to speake of the other part of the contradiction i. e. that we have no communion in the Sacraments as if he studied to crosse himself he is as full in his deniall of it vid. cap. 9. Art 4 5. 2. Note how thicke his sayings and unsayings fall in Cap. 9. Art 1. ☜ He affirmes we hold Communion with other Churches and Church members and then presently in 4 5. Art of the very same chap. he expresly denies that we hold any such communion Then againe in the very next chap. the 10. Art 1. he saith as full as can be that we hold communion mutually with other Churches and by in chap. 12. 8. as fully and expressely denies againe that we hold any such thing The man being an able and judicious man in other things it is more remarkable he should be thus extreamely left to confound himselfe while he sought to confound our poore innocent Churches Let any carefully observe in all these things mentioned whether I have not dealt candidly with him or no. Art 2. He reports 1 That one Church may give power to another over any of her members for excommunication 2 That the Minister of one Church may convey power to the Ministers of another for the administration of the Sacraments Answer Neither of both which doe wee hold or practise The onely Author cited that we can come at is Cot. Cat. p. 7. whose words are these The Supper is dispenced by the Minister to the faithfull of the same Church or to such as are cōmended to them by a like body See if here be one tittle to bear him out Yet from these assertions which he saith we hold he flings rebukes upon us in his comments upon his owne Text. p. 37. whereas indeede wee might reprove his 1 misreporting 2 abusing his Author 3 reproving us without cause Without letters of recommendation from one Church and Minister to another it is unlawfull saith he Art 3. in any case to administer any Church ordinance to any Church member but their owne upon any pretence whatsoever 1. Here is neither truth nor proofe to be seene Answ 2. Letters of recommendation for publique participation are not sent from one Minister to another but from a Church to a Church 3. We hold it not unlawfull but doe often practise to receive other members to communion with us without letters especially if they bee knowne to any of our Church else such letters are desireable but hee saith We doe it not in any case upon any pretence whatsoever which is utterly false and without proofe He tells us That wee are so strait-laced that if a company of godly people should sit neere us where our power reacheth differing from us only in some points of Church-Government they should not onely not be owned as a sister Church but should be in danger of severe punishment by our Magistrate Ans 1 If you weigh well this accusation of us in all the particulars it is very harsh and sore and here is no proofe but H. W. who this should be I professe I cannot tell unlesse some malignant or back-friend amongst us there or whether such a thing were ever written in these words and sense I know not and if it be certainly so written and from a godly man yet it is but one single witnesse and I am forbidden and so are all others 1 Tim. 5.19 to receive an accusation against one Elder much more against all the Elders and Churches in New-England without two or three witnesses therefore we dare not beleeve it 2. To this very point in hand the Ans to 32. 9. p. 82 83. speakes fully and fairely which W. R. well knowing for it was written to himselfe amongst others deales not candidly to conceale that Answer of a printed booke from known Authors of credit in New-England because it is faire and loving for what other ground could hee have and bring in the Answer of H.W. a man we know not which is harsh and distastfull how can the concealing of that and relating of this seeme ingenuous or friendly to us or the truth Answer to CHAP. XI HE makes report of a groundlesse course as he calles it in the Church at Cambridge in New-England where saith he the people use to meet together privately each one to hold forth the work of grace in his or her soule from the first conversion to that day so that their Pastour might know their growth in grace And saith also that as some report the end of this meeting was to cast out by excommunication non-proficients Ans With what face can any godly man call such meetings of the Saints for such an holy end as to try their growth in grace a groundlesse meeting and so cast dirt upon it for he makes proofe of no other end besides that 2. Did these godly people ever cast any out of the Church there meerely for non-proficiency 3. He hath still forgotten that rule in 1 Tim. 3.19 that requires two or three witnesses to bee brought forth c. who yet proceeds upon I know not what relations to beleeve and report yea and print to the view of the world what in his opinion may detract from a Reverend Elder and a godly Church also No marvell he calls his Book a poore pamphlet truly it is so indeed if all things we have discovered in it be well weighed and it will appeare yet poorer before we have done to any candid reader It is our humble suit to heaven that God will discover to himselfe the weakenes and error of his dealings herein for the humbling of his spirit Answer to CHAP. XII A Short Answer might serve to this long Chapter for most of it as also of the two next is but a repetition of things spoken once or twice some of them thrice before and answered to already He said in the beginning of his preface he wanted not work● but it seemes now towards the end of his booke he is more at leasure and so hee thinkes his reader is also else why he should so double treble the very same things totidem verbis I know not unlesse happily to make a deeper impression of his owne mistakes in his reader In Art 1. he tells us that after a Church is gathered it is often some yeares before she addresseth her selfe to the calling of Officers Whereas it is our usuall and constant course as hath beene said not to gather any Church untill they have one amongst themselves Ans fit for a Minister whom with all speede they call into Office and account themselves a lame and imperfect body till that be effected In his Marg. on that Art he saith hee is told to his comfort that many that were counted good Ministers in Old-England are there layed aside because they aime at men of speciall parts 1. We desire proofe for this aspersion unjustly cast on us Answ or else we shall still father it upon himselfe as