and eloquence hee seeketh to proue and perswade to the people of this Realme as the chiefest Bulwark of their Defence that were condemned he saith for religion we say for treason and in deed the very ground of all their actions I thought needefull to examine and to let the simple see on what a sandy slime they haue built as well their consciences as their Colleges and in how wretched and vnrighteous a quarell they haue hazarded their liues in this world and their soules in the next to inlarge the power and make vp the purse of their Rhemish founder Taking that therefore in hande I haue worde by worde refelled the fifth chapter of their Defence which purposely treateth of this matter and inserted so much of the fourth as tended to this ende the rest being a voluntarie pang of their vnbridled eloquencc as also I haue ripped vp the shamefull attemptes and tumults of Popes these last fiue hundred yeares for before that time Antichrist neither was nor durst be so bold presuming to displace depose their Lord Maister the Romane Emperor incountering him other Princes with treasons poysons battayles bloodsheds periuries treacheries such as Christendom neuer before tasted of euer since rued Where I haue not only opened the facts noted the meeknes of their martial spirits but haue vnfoulded the causes quarels for which those Princes were thus pursued with such excommunications and depriuations from Rome shewing as I go the Italian stories in fauour of their countrieman and foreman the Pope to bee exceeding partiall The like order I would haue followed in their Apologie but that as I first protested I found nothing in it worthy to bee refuted vnlesse I should haue banded their idle and emptie termes backe againe to them with others of the same making and so brought the cause of Christ and trueth of Religion to a warfare of woordes which I neither ought nor would If any man thinke me no indifferent iudge of their paines it may please him to cast his eye on the second sheete and hee shall find all the proofes and places of their Apologie aunswered in three leanes and of those fewe and weake quotations to haue made a conquest in open writing had beene incke and paper ill imployed I would therefore not take that course which seemed to me neither needeful nor profitable but to benefite the poore deceiued subiectes of this Realme and bring the Iesuites cause to the touch-stone in deede I haue chosen the principall intentes of their Apologie on which their whole foundation standeth and after mine owne course debated them more exactly and largely than the confutation of their Apology would haue suffered me For where they pretend they departed for lacke of the Catholike Sacrifice Sacramentes and Seruice which want in this Realme and because they were forced by oth to confesse an vnnaturall and impossible power in the Prince to be supreme Gouernour of all persons and causes as well ecclesiasticall as temporall and in their absence they resort for reliefe to none but to him that is the head of their catholike communion the chiefe Pastour and Bishoppe of their soules in earth and the vicar generall of Christ to whose predecessors all the famous Fathers called for aide comfort and counsell in their like distresses and traine vppe such as come vnto them in obedience to the churches Lawes Apostolike Traditions both written and vnwritten and to the precepts of Ancients Superiours who haue the promised spirit of trueth and are sent backe againe into this Land to execute spirituall offices and to absolue in foro conscientiae the penitent people from their sinnes of what sort soeuer schisme and heresie not excepted who seeth not that these assertions being the seueral braÌ„ches of their Apologie depend either on religion that is in strife betwixt vs or on the Princes power which they impugne or on the Popes claime to bee head of the church which we deny And therefore the proofe or disproofe of their particular actions must be fet and deriued from those chiefe and capitall springs The consideration whereof first induced mee to neglect the rouing discourses and vaunting florishes of their Apologie no lesse voide of trueth than of proofe and to betake my selfe to a stricter and directer kinde of examining the most materiall pointes on which the rest did hang as first their running to Rome siding themselues with the Pope as Christs Vicar generall against their Prince for which they haue no president in the primatiue Church The next is the princes power to commaund for trueth and right to beare the sword within her owne Realme ouer all persons for thinges and causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall without any subiection or relation to the Popes tribunall which I prooue is agreeable to the Lawes of God and practise of Christes church and therefore the oth importing the same to be good and godlie Thirdly the Popes censuring and depriuing princes of their crownes I shew to be nothing else but a wicked vnchristian pride contumelie not long since deuised by Antichrist to frustrate the word and ordinance of almighty God and to make himselfe great and so of force the subiects which be partakers with him in that hainous conspiracie by perswading assisting executing or defending the same in worde or deede against their princes to bee traytours and not martyrs if they die for that quarell Lastly the publique reformation of diuine Sacramentes and Seruice made by her Maiestie I declare to be Christian and Catholike and the partes of poperie repealed and abolished by the lawes of this Realme to be repugnant I speak for the substance of theÌ„ and not for certain indifferent ceremonies in them to the sacred scriptures and ancient fathers Other incident and adiacent matters I haue handled and those not a fewe as the generall and speciall contentes before and after will better insinuate but these foure bee the pointes that beare the burden both of their first Apologie for their Seminaries and last Defence of English Catholikes By these shal we soone discerne the truth or falshood of their pretences clamors against the Princes Lawes and such as are authorized by her highnesse therefore from the sober sad discussing hereof if they get them as they haue done to outragious and tragicall exclamations we must leaue them as men wilfully diuerting from the right way crying as loude as they can for life to drowne the voices of such as woulde recall them If they looke that all the parts of their Defence should haue bin answered in like sort as the fifth chapter is that labour I say for a man of my calling wold haue bin as fruitles as it is needles the proofs that are not here discussed may â—afely be despised the rest of their rolling rhetorik a diuine neither need regard nor should repeate As much as is inforcing to their purpose is here
paines and to make a readier dispatch if you will be ruled by me Phi. What is it Theo. Bring vs but one father for 800. yeares that euer taught your transsubstantiation and wee will count it catholike Phi. What talke you of one You shall haue one hundreth of as auncient and catholike writers as anie were in the Church of christ for a thousand yeares after his ascending to heauen Theo. You were best take it when you be wel offered One faire and sufficient authority shall please vs better than a cartloade of names abused and places peruerted Phi. It is as easie for vs to bring them by whole hundreds A man that once supplied the same roome which you doe nowe hath produced two hundreth of them in his Diacosion Martyrion Vernierus an other of our side hath alledged 318. seuerall and sundrie writers as manie as there were Bishops in the great Councell of Nice Garetius a man of singular reading hath gathered foure hundred fourtie fiue good and substantiall Authors euen from Melchizedech to this present age besides Poets women Councels Miracles visions Iewes Ethnicks and heretiks which all beare witnes to our doctrine And if you haue not seene the bookes I will lend you them for your instruction I could be content I tell you to be at anie cost to win a soul and wish to you no worse than to my selfe Theo. Your kindnes without cause is but seruice without thankes I haue seene your Diacosion Martyrion your great vniuersal Councell militant touching the truth of the most diuine sacrament of the Eucharist assembled by Vernierus your nine orders Rancks of I know not whom digested by Garetius besides the labours trauels of many others your adherents And reading them all I find not one father that euer dreampt of your material corporal conuersion of the elements into christ for 800. yeres vpward Hyperbolical speaches I find in Chrysostom some hard similitudes in damascene others but a manifest testimonie for the real carnal presence which you defend I find none and as for the fathers which be any thing ancient they go clearely and exactly with vs in this question Phi. With you By this a man may perceiue you neuer saw them or at lest neuer read them My selfe can alleage you 500. places wherof you shall not answere one but by meere shifts iestes of tropes and figures and such like mockeries Theo. It were paynes better bestowed for you to vnderstand what you alleage than to alleage that which you vnderstand not You may wrest and misuse 500. places of the fathers as your friends before you haue done in this point your selues in other questioÌ„s haue shewed the like actiuitie But that the substance of the bread vanished by consecratioÌ„ the substaÌ„ce of Christs body really succeedeth vnder the same dimensions accidents of bread wine entereth our mouthes locally coÌ„prised within those formes for this you shal neuer shew vs any one father greeke or latin within the compas of 800. yeres after Christ. Phi. A thousand authorities can we bring you with a wette finger that shall clearly conuince the presence of Christ in the sacrament Theo. And not one of them shal conclude that maner of presence which you maintain Phi. As for the maner of his being there it forceth not much so you grant him to be really and verily present Theo. His presence there can do you litle good except the manner of his presence be likewise expressed and auouched by the places which you would bring Phi. If he be present ergo the substance of his flesh is present and that must needs be corporally locally coÌ„prised in the formes of bread wine Theo. What father saith so besides your selues Phi. They al say he is preseÌ„t Theo. And so do we Phi. In words you say it but when you come to the push you deny the truth and effect of his presence Theo. Wee do not looke you should vnderstand vs that vnderstand not your selues You haue framed of your own heades a certaine maner of Christes presence in the supper without the direction or consent of any learned or auncient father and that of al others the grossest and absurdest that could be deuised and nowe you no sooner heare the name of Christes body or blood in the mysteries but you straightway grow to a speciall conceite that your reall and carnall presence is there confirmed and confessed And this made your builders of Babel as they posted through the Fathers to note euery place and person that did but mention The body of Christ as a witnes for Transubstantiation where if it woulde haue pleased you and your fellowes to haue weighed the rules and cautions of the fathers together with their speaches and exhortatioÌ„s not to haue hunted after your owne fansies in their phrases but marked remeÌ„bred their instructioÌ„s how they would be takeÌ„ vnderstood wheÌ„ they speak of the christiaÌ„ mysteries you should haue saued a great deale of labor which now you should haue saued a great deale of labour which nowe you haue spent to no purpose gained securitie from this difficultie which hath sâ—tted your schooles and churches with a most pernicious and yet a monsterous error Phi. And wee say that you bee so blinded with presumption and rebellion against the Church of God that you will not yeelde to all the fathers that euer wrate of this matter since Christes time but because they nowe and then speake of signes and figures you turne all to tropes and metaphores as if neither Christ himselfe nor any of his Apostles or their successors the Godly teachers and Pastours of his church had euer spoken properly or plainely of this sacrament but al in clouds and riddles such as neither Priest nor people that should come after could possibly conceiue and none to this day had vnderstood till you came lately to trouble the world with heresie and inâ—quitie Theo. Take your pleasures your tongues bee your owne who can tame them if you will not containe them You haue learned of your fathers to whet them like swordes and to smite with them and to shoote foorth your arrowes euen bitter wordes but the mouth that rageth with lies slanders as the wise man forwarneth destroyeth the soule and in the meane time your errors are nothing diminished or excused by your taunts or teeth-gawles As touching the matter it selfe Sacraments of their owne nature and by their first and chiefe erection are visible signes of inuisible graces so that if they be no signes they bee no sacraments and though the signes must bee diligently distinguished from the thinges yet for good causes in teaching and writing do the signes beare the names of the things them selues whose signes they are in so much that no father speaking or writing of the bread or wyne after they be once made sacraments giueth them any other
It is so long since I saw you Philander that I had almost forgotten you I thought I should remember your face but this apparell made me doubt of you Philand Euen he Theophilus and though you haue descried me where I would not be knowen yet I trust for olde acquaintance you meane me no harme Theo. If you be as far from doing euill as I am from wishing you euill I dare warrant you for any hurt you shall haue but what meaneth this strange attire are you wearie of a studients life that you fall to ruffling in your latter daies Phil. Not choice Theophilus but feare driueth me to this I take small pride in going thus disguised Theo. What neede you feare if you be faultlesse true men hide not their heades Phi. Not where truth may take place but where falshood ouer beareth all it is time for true men to hide their heads except they wil loose them Theo. Is your case so desperate that you stand in danger of loosing your head Phil. Not my deserts but the rigour of your lawes giue me iust cause to feare that which so many of our side haue felt Theo. Your frindes neuer felt the least part of that they did to others neither haue they cause to complaine but of too much ease Phil. You haue spoyled them of their goods cast them in prisons among theeues hanged them as traitours call you this ease what could they feele worse what could you do more Theo. Whom meane you the Northren rebels or Irish conspiratours that were thus hardly dealt with Phi. As though you knew not whom I meant Their heads and quarters pitched in rowes on your gates and bridges are to this day witnesses of their constancie and momiments of your cruelty Theo. Though I can gesse you only ean tell whom you meane Belike the Iesuits that lately suffered for Treason Phi. Treason was obiected to them for a colour to make them odious to the people but in deede religion was the very cause why they were condemned for would they haue recanted their faith they should neuer haue bene brought to the barre Theo. It may be Pardon was offered them so they would recant their Trayterous assertion that Popes at their pleasures may depose Princes and discharge their subiects from all obedience which Christian mildnes in seeking their amendment and shewing them so much fauour doth not quite them from the lewdnes of their enterprise The Princes mercy is no proofe of their innocencie But in sadnes Philander are you since your departure become a Iesuite that you take their part so freshly Phi. The question you aske mee is very dangerous considering the straitnes of your lawes Yet promise me that you will not bewray me and I wil be plaine with you what I am I loue not to dissemble much lesse to deny my vocation Theo. Promise me likewise that you wil attempt nothing against your duetie to God and your Soueraigne and I wil do the best I can for your safety Without this condition I may not yeeld to your petition Phi. I require no more but will you performe that Theo. None so deceitfull as those that be most mistrustfull Hauing our former acquaintance for a warrant and my promise now made you for your better securitie why feare you Phi. Blame mee not if I bee somewhat curious in disclosing my selfe life is sweete and that nowe must I put wholly into your hands which is no smale aduenture Theo. Were your life in my hands as it is not you should well perceiue wee delight not in blood Howbeit you cast greater perill than you neede The lawes of this lande doe not touch you so neere for entering the new found order of Iesuits neither for infecting the simple with the leauen of your doctrine but onely for making deuotion a cloke for sedition Leaue your vndermyning the Princes right state by these secrete and suttle meanes I see no daunger of death that is toward you Phi. If I be taken with any practise against the Prince I refuse no kind of torment onely from preaching publishing the Catholique faith I neither can nor wil be drawen Theo. Wel profered if it be wel performed In deed true Christians euer endured neuer displaced Princes no not when they were tyrants heretiques for God is not serued with resisting the sword which himselfe hath ordeyned to cherish the good chasten the bad but with duetiful obedience to Magistrates when their lawes agree with his in case their willes be dissonant from his thē is he serued with meekenes readines to beare and abyde that which earthly powers shall inflict And this was the cause why the Church of Christ alwayes reioyced in the blood of her Martyrs patiently suffering the cruell rage both of Pagans and Arrians and neuer fauoured any tumult of rebelles assembling themselues to withstande authoritie Phi. Tell vs that we knowe not this we neuer doubted of Theo. Then if your late Iesuites were sent hither as Pioners to make ready the way for the Popes bull that should disherite the Prince and giue her crowne to an other what say you were they iustly condemned for Treason or no Phi. You shall neuer be able to proue them sent to that end Theo. I doe not as yet say they were but what if they were doe you thinke them Martyrs or Traytours Phi. I am sure they were not For I my selfe came in the same message with them and knowe what charge was giuen both to them and to me that in no wise we should meddle with matters of state Theo. I thought all this while by the counterfaiting of your apparell and earnest defending of Iesuites that you were of that crewe Phi. You vrge mee so farre that I can not conceale it The truth is I am of their societie and haue so been euer since my last going beyond the Seas and am now sent backe with others to labour the conuersion of this Realme and to reconcile men to the Catholique fayth and Apostolique Sea for the sauing of their soules Theo. I am the more sory for it if sorow would helpe your lighting on them was vnhappy your ioyning with them is vngodly Phi. You do the men great wrong to carie that hard opinion of them without cause for my part I protest I neuer mette with a more religious vertuous and learned company than the Iesuites are Theo. You take light occasions to set forth your owne prayses as if it were a poynt of perfection to commend your selues Phi. Though we striue to excell others in learning and vertue which we lawfully may yet bragge we not of it Theo. You need not The maker of your Apologie doth it for you whose fingers ytched till he came to the comparing and aduancing of himselfe and his fellowes in this insolent manner Our wittes sayth he be of God in as plentifull measure as theirs our foundation in all kinde of faculties requisite
pleasure wisedome to vtter of himselfe nor any hauing iust cause to deeme worse or otherwise of his doings than is agreeable to his high calling approued good affection to our Country his great vertue and the euidence of the thing Theo. In trueth we seeke for your founders intentions not for yours and therefore this onely sentence in all your third chapter maketh toward the matter in question which you conclude with an ignoramus protesting his holines intentions to be vnknowen to you Phi. Uerily so are they Theo. You may winke at noone dayes say you see nothing yet this you know that subiects should not leaue their prince vpon euery dislike and flee the Country much lesse linke and ioyne themselues with the Princes foes least of all take the crowne from the Princes head at the Popes becke His secretes though you search not these doings you may soone discerne Phi. We be farre from any such dealings Theo. As farre as water from the Tems Do none flee the realme to come to your Seminaries Phi. They may flee that be persecuted Theo. Doth the prince persecute children in Grammer schooles Phi. That in cōscience were too much Theo. Yet you confesse Grammer scholers from al parts of the realme haue yeelded you many youthes many gentlemens sonnes specially aduenture ouer to you without their parents consent and sometimes much against their wils And think you this lawful to entice children from their parents subiects frō their Prince to be infected by you before they can iudge of you Phi. We do not entice them to come but instruct them when they come Theo. Remember you not your third purpose was to draw into these Colleges the best wittes out of England So that your owne wordes conuince you to be drawers which is all one with enticers of boyes from their schooles of childrē from their parents and this I winne you can hardly defend to be Catholike Besides your purpose was to draw for this is your terme those that were desirous of exact education or had scruple of conscience to take the oth of the Queenes supremacie or that misliked to be forced to the ministerie or that were doubtful whether of the two religions were true So that your Seminaries be not only receits for such as be lightly touched by the lawes of this Realme but harbours for all that bee desirous scrupulous dislykers or doubters that is in effect baits for all mens appetites marts for all mens purposes that be any way greeued with the State or affect nouelties Next that you be fedde and clothed at the Popes expences and in such thraldome to the Popes agent your superiour as you call him that you will and must accept his voice as a warrant from heauen and an oracle of Christ since you proclaime it we need not proue it And this is to be right of the Popes fold and familie whose hatred and hostilitie to the Prince and this Realme how deadly and daily it hath been and is England Ireland yea Rome it selfe can witnes and if you would dissemble neuer so deeply you neither are nor can be ignorant Lastly what you thinke and teach of her Maiesties right to the Crowne since Pius the fift gaue foorth his Bull to depriue her of the same if Sanders monarchie Bristoes motiues Campions Parsons dispensation did not fully conuince the answere of your fellowes vpon their examinacions at their araignements your refusal to speake when you be required and ambiguous maner of speaking when you be therto pressed do plainely shew you that you thinke that which you dare not vtter teach more than you would haue known Or if that which is past be not proofe enough for your better discharge let vs haue your answere at this present Is her Maistie right and lawfull Queene of this Realme notwithstanding the Pope did or doe depose her Phi. You now digresse from our purpose Theo. Then belike obedience to the magistrate doth not stand with your purpose Phi. Your question is very dangerous Theo. No danger at all if you be good subiects Phi. As good subiects as you for your liues Theo. And as Bristowe saith better saue that crakes be common with Iesuites But this is a shrewd signe of an ill subiect to refuse to confesse your rightfull Prince Phi. Wee be not Iudges betweene the Pope and the Queene Theo. So said Campion at the kings bench but til you make vs some directer answere geue vs leaue to take your seminaries if not for schooles of treason yet at least for nourceries of disobedience Your opinion in this point if it be good why doe you not confesse it If it be nought why doe you not reuoke it Your Apologie should haue either defied it as no part of your meaning or els defended it as honest and lawfull You doe neither in this place but flattering the Pope you beleeue it and fearing the Prince you conceale it And least your dissembling should be suspected you fill this chapter with needlesse vagaries from your selues to your aduersaries from doctrine to manners from Englande to Scotland auouching what you list defaming whom you can presuming al that you dreame to be true without care without cause without shame without sense Phi. You raile Theophilus Theo. And what doe you Philander when you say The fruites of the Protestants doctrine their prophane life and manners their restlesse contentions debates and dissentions among themselues their scandals mo in those fewe dayes of their felicitie than was giuen of the true Clergie in a thousand yeres before though al the aduersaries slaunderous reports of them were Gospel as many of them bee more false than Esops Fables And againe of Scotland you say The Caluinists horrible infamous murdering of his highnesse father and more than barbarous vilany and misuse of his deerest mother whiles shee was among them the sundry detestable treasons cōtriued against his Roial person when he was yet in his mothers womb as oftē since as wel otherwise by wonted treacheries as by infecting his tender age both with their damnable heresie and with ill affection towards his deerest parents What cal you this if it bee not railing What libell could be more lewde and infamous than this Happie men are you that may thus disdaine reproch belie and reuile others and not be counted railers Touching our liues we will say litle we referre the iudgement therof to such as be sober neither doe we denie but that among so great a number as this realm yeeldeth it is easie to finde some that serue not God but their bellies and seeke not Christ but theire owne And yet I see no cause why you should ouerlash so much in excusing your selues and accusing others as if our scandals so it pleaseth you to speake were mo in these fewe daies than yours in a thousand yeres before For if those things be true which not our fauorers but
of his truth and clensers of his Church that is with lawfull force to remoue such as impugne the faith and with publik authorit◠to punish those that defile the Church of God with their shamelesse manners be they Priestes or People and this doth not place earthly kingdomes aboue the Church but prepare them as aydes and defences for the Church which is the right end of all earthly States was the first cause why God erected them Though the sheepe may not rule their sheepeheards yet giue them leaue to discerne strangers and flie from theeues and murderers and giue the great and Archpastor that is in heauen leaue to gard his flock not only with watchmen but also with armed men that if the greedinesse and hardinesse of the wolues bee such that they feare not the clamours of Preachers at least they may shrinke for the terrours of Princes And this is no such absurditie as you make it that Princes should serue the true sheepeheard Christ Iesus by turning their swords against those raueners and spoylers which vnder the colour shew of feeding would kill the fattest and gorge themselues with the fairest of Christes flocke Yea Princes in their sort be sheepeheardes as well as Bishops in that they beare the sword vnder God to compell and punish such as the gentle perswasion of the Preacher can not moue and for that cause God said to Dauid Thou shalt feede my people Israell and Dauid maketh this report of himselfe So he fed them according to the simplicitie of his hart and guided them by the discretion of his handes As Princes are bound to heare preachers directing them vnto truth because the wordes of God are in their mouthes and hee that despiseth those thinges despiseth not mā but God so likewise are Preachers bound to obey Princes commanding for truth who so neglecteth that commandement of theirs shall haue no part with God for not doing that which trueth by the kinges hart commanded him And the Princes obedience to be due not to Preachers persons or pleasures but their message deliuered them by God the Lord Ruler of all Princes appeareth by this that Princes may lawfully punish the preachers if they falsifie the word of truth or shame their calling with their disordered liuing That Princes be iudges of Religion we neuer said it nor thought it much lesse that they be iudges of God himselfe this argueth rather your impudencie in reporting than our ignorance in not affirming it Gods name be blessed we know what difference there is and ought to be betweene God and man as well as you but such is the badnesse of your cause and blindnesse of your harts that you must and will rather childishly quarrell and wittingly belie the truth than come to a faire and euen triall S. Cyprian hath some such wordes but no such meaning as you alleage He saith when a Bishop is orderly chosen in any Church he that After the diuine allowance or iudgement after the suffrages of the people after the consent and liking of other Bishops erecteth a second in the same Church against him maketh himselfe now the Controler and Iudge not of the Bishop but of God which wee beleeue to be verie true but how doth this proue that Christiā magistrates may not displace wicked and vnworthy Bishops for their iustes desertes which is our question And as Cyprian in his sense is not againste vs so Cyprian in our case is cleare against you For when as yet there were no Princes Christened that with publike authoritie might remoue vngodly Bishoppes Cyprian assureth vs that the people might lawfully seuer them-selues from a wicked Bishoppe and elect an other His words bee these Therefore the flocke or people obeying the Lordes preceptes and fearing God ought to separate themselues from a sinfull Bishop and not to participate with the sacrifices of a sacrilegious Priest whereas they chiefly haue power to chose worthy Bishops and to reiect vnworthie perswading and incouraging the people to goe forwarde in that their attempt notwithstanding the Bishop of Rome tooke stitch with the partie deposed and wrote letters for his restitution of the which Cyprian maketh no great account as you may see by his words that follow Neither is the Bishop of Rome so much to be blamed that was deceiued through negligence as this man to be detested that fraudulently deceiued him And though Basilides coulde circumuent men yet can he not beguile God Phi. It maketh her free from Ecclesiasticall discipline from which no true childe of Gods familie is exempted Theo. It maketh her free from the Popes Buls and decretals but not from the Lawes and Precepts of Christ which is the true discipline of Gods children Touching the regiment of their owne persons and liues Princes owe the verie same reuerence and obedience to the word and Sacraments that euerie priuate man doth and if any Prince would be baptised or approach to the Lords table with manifest shew of vnbeliefe or irrepentance the minister is bound freely to speake and rather to lay downe his life at the Princes feete than to let the king of Kings be prouoked the mysteries defiled his owne soule and the Princes indangered for lacke of often and earnest admonition Phi. I am glad you graunt that Princes may be excommunicated for that proueth Priestes to be their superiours and ouerthroweth quite their supremacie Theo. You reason very profoundly The seruants of God may not receiue any mortall man to the diuine mysteries except he bring with him a right faith in God an inwarde sorrowe for his former sinnes ergo the Pope may depose Princes set their subiectes in open fielde against them to thrust them from their thrones Phi. We reason not so but we say Priestes may excommunicate Princes ergo they be superiours to Princes Theo. I speake of not admitting Princes to the Sacramentes but with those conditions that God requireth of all Christian men without respect of States or persons and you by and by leape to excommunication which word you egerly sease on not for any meaning you haue to guide Princes right lest they prouoke the wrath of God to their euerlasting destruction by the contempt of his graces but for a cunning to defeate them of their crownes by your indirect and vngodly deuises For first you wil excōmunicate them that is you wil haue no cōmunion with them in anie thing spiritual or tēporal next you descend from not cōmunicating with thē to not obeying them lastly from not obeying to open rebelling against them placing others in their steedes And thus when Princes displease you you neuer leaue them till with this wreath of excommunication you wring their Scepters out of their handes But if you looke better about you you shall finde great difference between not deliuering them the sacred mysteries of God except they repent and beleeue the Gospell and your diuelish conspiracie to deny
their conuersion subuert the worship of idols ouerthrow their tēples edifie the maners of your subiects by exhorting threatning faire intreating correcting shewing examples of wel doing that you may find him a rewarder in heauen whose name knowlege you haue dilated in earth For so Constantine a most religious Emperor reuoking the Romane Empire from the peruerse seruice of idols subdued the same with himself to the almighty God our Lord Iesus Christ turned him self together with the people vnder him to God with al his heart And nowe let your excellency labor to poure the knowledge of one God the father the son the holy Ghost into the Princes people that are subiect to you that he may make you partaker of his kingdom whose faith you cause to be receiued and obserued in your kingdom This the kings of England before since the cōquest were taught to be their duty sworn to execute faithfully as the lawes of king Edward the good make proofe which William the Conquerer receiued confirmed where the office charge of a king are thus expressed A king because he is the Lieutenant of the most high king was appointed to this end that he should regard gouerne the earthly kingdom and the people of God and aboue all thinges his holie Church and defend her from wronges and roote out male factors from her yea scatter and destroy them Which except he do he can not iustly be called a king A king ought to feare God and aboue all thinges to loue him and to establish his commaundementes throughout his kingdom He ought also to keepe nourish maintaine and gouerne the holie Church of his kingdome with all integritie and libertie according to the constitutions of his fathers and predecessours and to defende it against enemies so as God may be honoured aboue all and euer had in minde He ought to establish good lawes and approued customes and abolish euill lawes and customes and remoue them all out of his Realme Hee ought to doe right iudgement in his kingdom and execute iustice by the counsell of his Nobles All these thinges ought the king to sweare in his owne person before he be crowned The verie Heathen perceiued confessed this to be true Aristotle a prophane Philosopher writing of the first institution of kings sheweth how many things they were by office to medle with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A king in olde time was the leader in warres pronouncer in iudgements and ouerseer of religion And againe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Diuine things were committed to Princes as part of their charge Al Monarchies kingdomes and common-wealthes Assyrians Persians Medes Graecians Romanes Iewes Gentiles Pagans Christians haue euer kept this for a generall rule that religion shoulde bee setled and establissed by publike lawes and maintained by the Magistrates sword So that if you take the defence of pietie the reward of honestie and balance of equitie from the Princes charge you run headlong against God and man to feede your owne appetites and see not that which reason and nature taught the heathen to confesse that as euery priuate man is bound to seeke and serue God aboue all thinges so euerie societie of men be it familie citie or countrie is likewise bound to haue a speciall and principall care of his seruice which can not be done vnlesse it be planted preserued by publike lawes of these lawes as of all other amongst men onely Magistrates be the makers keepers and reuengers Phi. Princes be charged after a sort with godlines and honestie Theo Your delaies do not answere our proofes We shew the chiefest part of their charge to be godlines and honestie which be thinges spiritual not temporall Phi. What if that be granted Theo. If their duty stretch so far their authoritie must stretch as far Their charge ceaseth where their power endeth God neuer requireth princes to do that which he permitteth thē not to do but rather his commanding them to care for those thinges is a full authorizing of them to medle with those thinges If then godlines and honestie bee the chiefest part of their charge ergo they be likewise the chiefest end of their power and consequently Princes beare the sword chiefly for spiritual thinges and causes not as you defend onely for temporall Phi. You put all thinges temporall spirituall and ecclesiasticall into their handes Theo. In all these thinges and other things whatsoeuer we say they beare the sword and why should that displease you God hath giuen them the sworde euen in those thinges which himselfe commaundeth and prescribeth as namely faith and good manners which be the chiefe contentes of his lawe and respectes of our life and do you think it much that they beare the sword in those indifferent matters which Bishops haue agreed on for seemelinesse and good order to be kept in the church no way comparable to those thinges which God hath put them in trust with and made them defenders and auengers of And if Princes shall not beare the sworde in thinges and causes ecclesiasticall you must tell vs who shall The Priest or the Prince of force must do it and since by Gods law the Priest may not medle with the sword the consequēt is ineuitable that Princes alone are Gods ministers bearing the sword to reward and reuenge good and euill in all thinges and causes bee they temporal spirituall or ecclesiasticall vnlesse you thinke that disorders and abuses ecclesiasticall should be freely permitted and neither preuented nor punished by publike authoritie which in these froward ages would breede a plain contempt of all ecclesiasticall order and discipline and hasten the subuersion of those kingdomes and common-wealthes where such confusion is suffered Phi. The Rites and Ceremonies of the Church are not in the Princes power Theo. To deuise new Rites and Ceremonies for the Church is not the Princes vocation but to receiue and allow such as the Scriptures and Canons commend and such as the Bishops and Pastours of the place shall aduise not infringing the Scriptures or Canons And so for all other ecclesiasticall thinges and causes Princes be neither the deuisers nor directors of them but the confirmers and establishers of that which is good and displacers and reuengers of that which is euill which power we say they haue in all thinges causes be they spirituall ecclesiasticall or temporall Phi. And what for excommunications and absolutions be they in the Princes power also Theo. The abuse of excommunication in the Priest contempt of it in the people Princes may punish excommunicate they may not for so much as the keies are no part of their charge But these particulars if we seuerally discusse we shall neuer end the generall rules on which our assertion is grounded may be sooner proposed and resolued First to whom hath God committed the sword to the Priest or the Prince Phi. To whom say you
like danger Phi. Succession alone is not sufficient to keepe men in the right faith Theo. If you ioyne trueth and holines with it as Ireneus doth no doubt they bee markes of faithfull and Godly Pastours but succession of it selfe doth neither priuilege the Teachers from error nor conduct their hearers vnto trueth because there haue beene thousands in the Church whose opinions you may not alow though you cannot disproue their elections Phi. Admit that and how then Theo. If Bishops singled may erre why not Bishops assembled which you call Councels What assurance hath their meeting to keepe them from erring Phi. The promise of our Lord where there be two or three gathered in my name there am I in the midst of them Theo. Doth our Sauiour speake only of Bishops and Councels or els of all faythful persons resorts gathered to prayer preaching or any other good intent Phi. The wordes be general and therefore belong as wel to councels as other conuents Theo. Indeed the words be generall and therefore belong no more to Councels than to any other Christian Conuents And did they specially pertain to Councels as they do not a Councell of two or three by the purport of the very wordes hath as much assurance of trueth as a Councel of three hundered It is not the number but the name in which they be gathered that guydeth and directeth them vnto trueth Phi. If our Lord haue promised to assist three gathered in his name howe much more will hee assist three hundered Theo. And yet three may see the trueth when three hundred may misse it Which I speake not to deface religious and Godly Councels but to stay the multitude from presuming their fansies to bee true religion when they bee nothing neere Phi. May Councels erre Theo. Why not Phi. What Councels Theo. Yea Councels Rebaptising of heretikes was defended by Cyprian and a Councel of Bishops with him and as Eusebius reporteth out of Dionysius decreed In maximis Episcoporum Synodis in very great Councels of Bishops The Arrians in twentie sixe yeres gathered and framed sundrie Councels for their purpose at Tyrus Ierusalem Philippi Sirmium Ariminum Seleucia Cōstantinople and two at Antioch In the Councel of Millan Aboue three hundered of the west Bishoppes consented that Athanasius should be thrust from his Bishoprike and only fiue sayd nay To the wicked edict of Basiliscus against the Councel of Chalcedon subscribed fiue hundred Bishops Gregorie Nazianzene was so out of loue with the Councels of his time that when he was sent for he praied Proropius to haue excused to the Emperour for sicknes and addeth I to write you the trueth am determined to forbeare all Councels of Bishops because I haue not seene any good euent of any Councel but rather an encrease than a redresse of our euils So that a number of badde Bishops may doe much hurt euen in Councels and the better part is not alwaies sure to be the greater Phi. Particular Councels haue erred but neuer generall Theo. If particular councels may erre why may not general what differēce find you between Prouinciall and general Councels but only the number of Persons that bee called and places whence they bee called Now what warrant I pray you haue three hundered Bishops more than two hundered or the Bishops of some countries more than the Bishops of other Countries that they cannot erre If trueth goe by tale particular Councels haue often matched and passed many generall for number of Bishops The second and sixt generall Councels had present at either but one hundered fiftie Bishops the third had but one hundered as Beda writeth and as it appeareth by their subscriptions not aboue one hundered fiftie whereas the Councel of Sardica had three hundred and so had the councel of Millan and the fourth sixt Councels of Carthage had aboue two hundered Bishops in either of them If it goe by countries then shew vs which Countries haue this priuiledge that their Bishops can not erre and which haue it not For as yet we see no cause why trueth should be tied to some numbers or nations and not to others and before we may grant them that progatiue we must see great cause and good proofe Phi. Wee doe not hold that generall Councels are defended from error by reason of any number or nations there gathered but it is wee say more likelie that many men assembled out of diuers nations shoulde light on trueth than a fewe out of one Theo. You come with likelyhoodes when wee seeke for certaineties Can you shew forth any graunt from God that generall Councels shall not erre Phi. If generall Councels might erre the church might erre which is not possible Theo. As though none were of or in the Church but onely Bishope or all the Bishops of Christendome without exception were euer present at any Councel or the greater part of those that are present might not strike the stroake without the rest When 300. are assembled in Councel and 149. take one part and 151. the other is this your profound learning that the odde voyces which make vp the greater part can neuer erre or doth the whole Church erre when falsehood hath for her selfe tenne or twelue Bishops more than trueth hath Phi. If a Councel once geue iudgement in matters of fayth who can reuerse it Theo. The rest present or absent may lawfully contradict the Councel if it wade besides trueth or against the faith When the fathers in the great Councel of Nice were about to decree that Bishops Priestes and Deacons should not vse their wiues Paphnutius alone rose vp in the midst of their Councel and freely contradicted it The same Paphnutius when secrete enemies laboured in the Councel of Tyrus wrongfully to depose Athanasius caught Maximus the Bishop of Ierusalem by the hand and willed him to rise and forsake that conuenticle of euill men In the Councel of Millan when 300. had consented to the deposition of Athanasius Dionysius Eusebius Paulinus Lucifer and Rhodamus but fiue against fifteene skore openly and plainly withstood it The second Councell of Ephesus was reiected by many godly Bishoppes that were not present as iniurious and wicked and Leo himselfe writeth of the famous and generall councell of Chalcedon Tanquam refutari nequeat quod illicite voluerit multitudo as though that might not bee refused which a multitude hath vnlawfully decreed And making there no more account of their number though there were aboue sixe hundred fathers in that Councel he saith Nulla sibimet de multiplicatione congregationis Concilia blandiantur Let no councels flatter themselues with the great number of persons assembled Phi. You are the first that euer were of this opinion that generall Councels might erre Theo. Your owne fellowes haue beene of that opinion before vs. Panormitane the best of your canonists and Proctour for Pope
it or recall you backe from your enterprise is sacrilege Woe bee to you that call good euill and euill good which set darkenesse for light and light for darkenesse and put bitter for sweete and sweete for bitter Woe bee to you that are so wise in your owne eyes and so prudent in your owne conceites that you preferre your owne Counsell before the wisedome of God Philand Nay you preferre your wittes before the whole Church of GOD you woulde not other-wise take vppon you to controle your forefathers and teachers in such sort as you doe Theoph. If they forsooke their fathers yea GOD him-selfe why shoulde wee not renounce them rather as parricides than resemblance of their auncestours Philand They were Catholikes and so are wee Theoph. You leaue the steppes both of Christ and his Church and yet you must and will bee catholikes Philand Wee followe them better than you doe Theoph. So it appeareth by your halfe communion which they condemned for sacrilege and you embrace for Religion Phi. Here is such a stirre about eating and drinking as though all consisted therein and in the meane while you neglect and abolish the holy and vnbloody sacrifice which is farre more Catholike than your communion Theo. You neede not make so light of eating and drinking at the Lordes table There depende greater promises and dueties on that than on your vnbloody sacrificing the sonne of God As often as yee shall eate this breade and drinke this cup yee shewe the Lordes death till hee come Without eating and drinking therefore the Lordes death is not shewed The bread which we breake to be eaten is it not the communion of Christes body The cup of blessing which wee blesse that all may drinke of it is it not the communion of Christes blood If wee refuse eating the one or drinking the other can we be partakers of Christ or his spirit Hee that eateth my flesh sayth our sauiour and drinketh my blood dwelleth in mee and I in him and except you eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his blood yee haue no life in you These bee the fruites and effectes of religions and worthie eating and drinking at the Lordes table shewe vs the like for your sacrificing and wee will thinke you had some occasion though no reason to turne the Lords Supper into an offering Philand This one Sacrifice hath succeeded all other and fulfilled all other differences of Sacrifices and hath the force and vertue of all other to be offered for all persons and causes that the others for the lyuing and the dead for sinnes and for thankesgiuing and for what other necessitie soeuer of body or soule Bee not these as great and good effectes of our Sacrifice as those which you nowe rehearsed for eating and drinking at the Altar Theo. They bee great if you had as good authoritie for the one as wee haue for the other Philand Wee haue better Theo. Wee must giue you leaue to say so but you shall giue vs leaue not to beleeue you Phi. All the fathers with one consent stand on our side for the Sacrifice Theoph. Were it so that yet is many degrees beneath the credite of our conclusion You bring vs the speaches of men wee bring you the woorde of God I trust you will aguise some difference betwixt them Phi. As though wee coulde not bring you Scriptures as well as fathers for the sacrifice of the Masse Melchisedec by his oblation in bread and wyne did properly and most singularly prefigurate this office of Christes eternall Priesthoode and sacrificing himselfe vnder the formes of breadâ— and wyne which shall contynue in the Church throughout all Christian Nations in steede of all the offeringes of Aarons Priesthood as the Prophet Malachie did foretell as Saint Cyprian Saint Iustine Saint Irineus and others the most auncient Doctors and Martyrs doe testifie Cyprian epistola 63. num 2. Iustin. dial cum Trypho post med Iren. libro 4. capit 32. And Saint Augustine libro 17. cap. 20. de ciuitat Dei libro primo contra aduers. leg prophet ca. 18. lib. 3. de baptism ca. 19. S. Leo sermone 8. de passione auouch that this one sacrifice hath succeeded all other and fulfilled all other differences of Sacrifices c. Yea in S. Pauls epistle to the Church at Corinth the first and tenth chapter We maie obserue that our bread and chalice our table and altar the participation of our host and oblation be compared or resembled point by point in all effectes conditions and properties to the altars hostes sacrifices and immolatious of the Iewes and Gentiles Which the Apostle woulde not or coulde not haue done in this Sacrament of the altar rather than in other Sacraments or seruice of our Religion if it onelie had not beene a Sacrifice and the proper worship of God among the Christians as the other were among the Iewes and heathen And so doe all the fathers acknowledge calling it onelie and continuallie almost by such termes as they doe no other Sacrament or ceremonie of Christes Religion The Lamb of God laide vpon the table Concil Nicen. The vnbloodie seruice of the Sacrifice In Concil Ephesin epist. ad Nestor pag. 605. The sacrifice of sacrifices Dionys. Eccles. Hieronym cap. 3. The quickning holie sacrifice the vnbloodie host and victime Cyril Alex. in Concil Ephes. Anatâ— the propitiatorie sacrifice both for the liuing and the dead Tertul. de cor Milit. Chrys. ho. 41. in 1. Corinth ho. 3. ad Phil. Ho. 66. ad pop Antioch Cypr. epi. 66. decaena Do. nu 1. August Euch. 109. Quaest. 2. ad Dulcit to 4. Ser. 34. de verb. Apost The sacrifice of our mediator the sacrifice of our price the sacrifice of the newe Testament the sacrifice of the Church August li. 9. ca. 13. li. 3. de baptist ca. 19. The one only inconsumptible victime without which there is no Religion Cyprian de caen Do. nu 2. Chrysost. ho. 17. ad Hebr. The pure oblation the newe ofspring of the newe Law the vital and impolluted host the honoâ—râ—ble dreadful Sacrifice the Sacrifice of thankesgiuing or Eucharistical the Sacrifice of Melchisedec This is the Apostles and fathers doctrine God grant you may find mercy to see so euident and inuincible a trueth Theo. You be nowe where you would be and where the fathers seeme to fit your foote But if your sacrifice bee conuinced to bee nothing lesse than catholike or consequent to the Prophets Apostles or Fathers Doctrine what say you then to your vanitie in alleaging if not impietie in abusing so many Fathers and Scriptures to proppe vp your follies Phi. Bee not these places which we bring you for this matter vndeniable vnauoydable indefeatable vnanswerable Theo. In any case lay on loade of termes You haue made vs so many in your late Rhemish testameÌ„t that now you must not seeme to lack But what if all these places neede
resisted the Popes power in whole or in part euer since the conquest This Land subiect to him neither as Christs vicar nor as Patriarke of the west Apol Cap. 4. sect 25. Bishoppes may preach wihout Cesars leaue if they submit themselues to Cesars sword as the Apostles did The Iesuites cunning in playeng with the worde Supreme as they doe What the Iesuits imagine of the word Supreme The wordes of the oth be sound eâ—ough if they cease peruerting them Ruler and Prince be as doubtfull as gouernour if men be disposed to cauill Bishops be called Rulers Princes Kings Queenes Heb. 13. Act. 20. In. 1. Cap. epist. ad Titum Idem in 3. Ca. 1. ad Tim. Lib. 4. Cap. 33. Morali in Iob. In 49. ca. Esaiae Euerie of the faithfull is a King and a Priest Reuelat. 1. 1. Peter 2. Lib. Cap. 37. Idem lib. 4. Cap. 24. Ibidem Princes are Bishops and Priests Euagrie tom epist. 2. Idem Oceano eodem tom Exod. 24. Iosua 24. Iudges 8. Iudâ—th 6. The ground of al their absurdities is the cauilling at 〈◊〉 words The gouernment of Princes Prâ—ests are distinct Gouernours of this realme none is but only the Prince This is the profound Logike of Rhemes A right Frier that will neuer be answered though the Sophisme be neuer so grosse Only Princes beare the sworde within their owne dominions If only Princes beare the sword they beare it in al things as well spiritual as teÌ„porall where the sword is required The sworde must be vsed in spirituall things and causes as wel as temporall Princes caÌ„not be defenders of the faith officers of the Church but by means of the sword 1. Tim. 2. The sword ordeined chiefly to preserue godlinesse and honesty among men The sword of Princes is supreme in that it is not subiect to the Pope must be obeyed of al in things that be good These bee right Iesuiticall conceits The true supremacie of Princes The Papists in euery stile which they giue the Pope make him supreme Caus. 25. quaest 1. § Nulli fas Acclamationes in fine Concil Triden Sess. 25. Supreme gouernour doth not touch Christ so nere as Supreme Bishop doth which is the Popes vsuall stile 1. Pet. 5. 1. Pet. 2. My Kingdom is not of this world Ioh. 18. Who made me Iudge ouer you Luke 12. Princes must be indured whatsoeuer they coÌ„mand but not obeyed agaynst the faith or canoÌ„s of the church In temporall things Princes may not frustrate the lawes of their progenitors nor the liberties of the people Lib. 4. cap. 27. Constit. 131. de Eccle. Canon Al godly princes haue admitted the Canons of the Church Constit. 6. Athanas. ad solitar vitaÌ„ agentes Gregor lib. 9. epist. 41. The Pope obeyed the Princes lawes not against the Canons The Popes name put in steed of the Princes Caus. 7. quaest 1. Scripsit Nouel coÌ„st 83. Item const 6. To be tyed to the saith and canons of the Church doth not diminish their supremacie The Princes sword is not spirituall Ephes. 6. Reuelat. 1. Hebr. 4. The word of god is the spirituall sword The magistrats sword is corporall Mat. 10. Mat. 10. And temporall 2. Cor. 4. How the Papists abuse the word spirituall in extending it to men and matters that they should not They be spirituall which haue the spirit of God 1. Cor. 3. 1. Cor. 2. Gal. 6. Iude epist. 1. Pet. 2. Hieron ad Iulian. tomo epist. 1. Their lands liuings must be spirituall though Saint Paul call theÌ„ carnall 1. Cor. 9. Rom. 15. Mat. 22. Ambros. epist. lib. 5. orat coÌ„tra Auxent The Romish kalender of spirituall things See the tytles of their Decretals Malefactours of al sortes should opeÌ„ly repent before they be receiued to the Sacraments Rom. 13. The goods lands and liuings of Clergie men be Cesars right What things ChristiaÌ„ Princes first committed to Bishops for their learning and integritie the Pope afterward toke theÌ„ vp as his own Bishops the fittest men to deale in these causes but by the Princes power and lawes Bishops by their function may deny the sacraments to such as will not repent but they may not compel or punish any man without commission from the Prince Compulsion correction in all things is the Princes right The sword ordayned chiefly for things spirituall Rom. 7. Ibidem Rom. 13. 1. Pet. 2. Mark 10. Worldly thinges be neither good nor euil for which two causes Princes beare the word The spiritual things which the Pope claimeth are teÌ„porall 1. Cor. 13. 1. Cor. 14. Princes were not ordained to cloaâ—â— the backe feede the belâ—â— â— Tim. 6. Mat. 6. 1. Tim. 2. Godlines and honestie the chiefest causes why Princes were ordained The Prince hath the same charge in the coÌ„monwealth that euerie priuate man hath in his familie Ephes. 6. The parentes charge towardes their children Psalm 34. Deut. 4. Deut. 4. Genes 18. Psalm 101. Dauids charge in his kingdome Religion the Princes chiefest charge Nouel Consti 6. Legum Theod. Nouel tit 2. de Iudaeis Samaritanis Aug. epist. 162. The sifting examining of a Bishop did most pertaine to the princes charge by S. Aug. iudgemeÌ„t Epist. ad LuciuÌ„ inter leges Edward cap. 17. Eleutherius opinion of the Princes charge Inter leges Edward Reg. cap. 17. Pope Iohns opinion of the Princes charge Beda hist. gentis Anglor cap. 32. Gregories coÌ„fession of the Princes charge The king of Englands oth expressing his charge Inter leges Edward cap. 17. de Regis offâ—cio Ibidem The very heathen were of the same opinion Politic. lib. 3. cap. 11. Ibidem cap. 5. In all kingdomes and common-wealthes since the foundation of the earth religion hath been setled defended by the Magistrates sword Their authoritie must stretch as far as their dutie God hath giuen Princes the sword in those thinges which himself commandeth The Priest in no cause may beare the sword The confirming of Rites and Ceremonies needeth the sword The abuse or contempt of excommunication reuenged by the sword The sworde committed to the Prince Rom. 13. His Apostles forbidden the sword Mat. 26. Mat. 20. Bernard de considerat lib. 2. Dominion interdicted the Pope himself Caus. 33. quaest 2. ¶ Inter haec Caâ—s 33. quaest 8. ¶ De Episc. No clergimen may vse the sword no not by the Popes authoritie 2. Cor. 10. Ad solitar vitaÌ„ agentes Ambros. lib. 5. Epist. 33. The seruants of Christ may haue no earthly kingdome since their master had none Iohn 8. Matth. 10. 2. Tim. 2. Distinct. 96. ¶ Cum. ad verum A Bishop may not vsurp an Emperours name much lesse his sword Distinct. 10. ¶ Quoniam ideÌ„ Cyprian writeth to Iulian an 100. yeares before Iulian was borne The Disciples of Christ straitly charged not to medle with Princely swords The sworde hath beene may be and should be vsed for that which is good in al spirituall things and causes The oth cleared Their absurdities returned on their owne heades
attemptes against God and the Magistrate But as it seemed they trusted rather to their practises which haue beene of late verie rife with the Church of Rome than to their proofes of which theie bee vtterlie destitute and therefore they dispatched into your Highnesse Realme vnder the conduction of one more presumptuous than learned as his writing and disputing whiles hee liued declared a whole swarme of Boie-priestes disguised and prouided at all assaies with secrete instructions how to deale with all sortes of men and matters and with commission from Rome to confesse and absolue such as they should winne with anie pretence or policie to mislike the state and affect noueltie and to take assuraunce of them by vowe othe or other meanes that they shoulde bee euer after adherent and obedient to the Church of Rome and to the faith thereof which there made the ruder and vnwiser sort beleeue was christian and Catholike Religion onelie founded in their mouthes and the faith of their Fathers and yet that poison they caried couertlie in their hearts and cunninglie in their bookes that your Maiesties deceiued and beguiled Subiectes by the verie sequence of their Romish faith and absolution were tied to obeie the Pope depriuing your highnesse of the sword and scepter bound to assist him or whom he should send to take the same by force of armes out of your Highnesse handes I knowe most noble Soueraigne they stoutly denied this and earnestly protested in open audience that they had no such meaning but for their partes did account your Maiestie their lawfull and true Princesse and taught all others so to doe hauing first obtained like wilie Friers a dispensation at Rome that to auoide the present daunger they and all other their obsequents might serue and honour your Highnesse for a time vntill the bull of Pius the fifth might safely bee executed and it may bee the common sort of such as they peruerted were not acquainted with these hainous mysteries but yet this was the full resolution of them all which I last reported as well appeared by their examinations and this verie conclusion stood in their written bookes as a ruled case that they must rather loose their liues than shrinke from this ground-woorke that the Pope maie depriue your Highnesse of your Scepter and Throne and the reason is added because saie they it is a pointe of fayeth and requireth confession of the mouth though death insue This daungerous if not diuelish Doctrine was not printed nor publyshed to the sight of all your Subiectes vntill the time that some of the chiefe procurers and kindlers of this flame for these and other interprises of lyke condition and qualitie were by the iust course of your Highnesse Lawes adiudged to death After whose execution the almes-men of Antichrist sawe no remedie but they must either leaue their brethren as rightlie condemned for hatching rebellion vnder a shewe of Religion and bee in daunger to dissolue the plotte which they had laide to bring this Lande to the Popes subiection the true ende and intent of their Seminaries and full repaiment of all his charges or else with all their cunning vndertake the quarrell of their vn-holie father and pleade the cause of their vnluckie brethren Hauing no better choice they resolued as venturers must that haue a desperate case in hand to trie what successe they might gette by facing and shifting in such sort as the simple shoulde hardlie discerne them To that end haue they put foorth A Defence of English Catholikes Wherein according to their wonted vaine manie thinges are statelie and stoutelie auouched but nothing attempted or intended to bee prooued saue onelie the Popes power to depriue Princes which with all furniture of witte and woordes they labour to inferre not shaming to saie that Subiectes bearing armes against their naturall Princes vpon the Popes warraunt do an holy iust and honorable seruice and that this hath beene the faith of this Land euer since it was conuerted vnto Christ. Against this canker consuming the verie soule and conscience where it taketh holde I thought it not amisse to oppose the Soueraigne salue of Gods eternall will and commaundement and to let it appeare to your Graces people that Princes are placed by God and so not to bee displaced by men and subiectes threatned damnation by Gods own mouth if they resist from which no Popes dispensation shall saue them and therefore the Iesuits Doctrine in that point to be as wicked as their proofes bee weake hauing neither Scripture Councell nor Father for a thousande yeares that euer allowed mentioned or imagined anie power in Popes to depose Princes I haue thereto added a confirmation of the right which the Lawes of this Lande do attribute vnto your Highnesse and an explication of that othe which the Iesuits so much stumble at laieng my foundation in the sacred testimonies of the holie Ghost and persuing the same in the continual practise of Christs church for eight hundreth yeares vpward so long as there was either godlines in Bishops to regard their duties or corage in Princes to call for their owne and iustifieng euerie part thereof seuerallie and sufficientlie by diuine and humane both authorities and examples The Iesuites absurdities and allegations pretended against your Maiesties interest to beare the sword ouer all persons and in all causes without dependence or reference to anie earthlie tribunal or superior I haue likewise particularlie refelled and proued them both impertinent to their purpose and nothing obstant to that Supreme power of the sword which is claimed and vsed by your Maiestie but their obiections to be meere cauils mistakings of a matter which they do not or will not vnderstand as also their flieng this Realme and running to Rome I haue examined and not onelie found them repugnant to the ancient lawes of the Conqueror other your noble progenitors but also shewed great difference betweene the Catholike Fathers writing and sometimes going to the Bishop of Rome as to their fellow seruaunt and a dutifull subiect to the same state that they were our English Italians giuing him an Antichristian power to turne wind the whole church at his will and dispose kingdomes and displace Princes if they be not obedient and suppliant to his Censures Lastlie because the temper and colour of all their wicked sayings doings is the catholik faith the catholik seruice I haue entered a speciall discourse that the reformation of the church in this Realme made by your Maiesties power lawes is wholie truelie catholike such as the Scriptures do preciselie command the ancient fathers expresly witnes was the faith and vse of Christes church for manie hundrethes These things most religious worthie Princesse I haue done sincerely that the doctrine precepts of our Sauior might take place before the deuises pleasures of mē familiarly that the meaner sort of your subiects which are most obnoxious
to this infection might perceiue the way to recouer their former health temperatly that the enimy should not thinke himselfe rather illuded then aunswered Which if it please your most excellent Maiestie to like alow that it may passe to the hands of your people I trust in Christ that such as haue any feare of God before their â—yes and care of life to come will hold themselues satisfied and the rest be better aduised before they runne headlong into that extreeme perdition of bodie soule and horrible downefall of disobedience and infidelity to God and their Prince The king of kings and Lord of Lordes blesse and preserue your Maiestie and as hee hath begun a good and glorious worke in you and in this Realme by you so continue the same by lightening you with his holie Spirit and defending you with his mightie arme as hee hath doone from the daie that hee chose you to bee the Leader and Guider of his People that you maie long keepe them in trueth and peace by the assistaunce of his grace to the praise of his glorie increase of the Godlie and griefe of his and your enimies Euen so Lord Iesus Your Maiesties most humble and dutifull subiect THOMAS BILSON THE GENERALL CONTENTS of euerie part The first part Examineth all the proofes and places of the Iesuits Apologie their forsaking the Realme and running to Rome what aid the Fathers sought at Rome and how the Bishop thereof in all ages hath beene resisted the intent of his Seminaries and vertues of his Clergy The second part Prooueth the Princes supreme power to commaund for truth within her Realme and the Pope to haue beene a duetifull subiect to the Romane Emperors Ecclesiastical Lawes for eight hundred yeares and vpward answereth the Iesuites authorities and absurdities heaped against the Princes regiment searcheth the safest way for the Princes direction in matters of religion and concludeth the Pope in doubts of doctrine to be no sufficient nor superiour iudge The third part Refelleth the Iesuits reasons and authorities for the Popes depriuing of Princes the bearing of armes by subiects against their Soueraignes vpon his censures declareth the tyrannies and iniuries of Antichrist seeking to exalt himselfe aboue kings Princes conuinceth that no deposition was offered by the Pope for a thousand yeres after Christ and none agnised by anie Christian Prince vntil this present day The fourth part Sheweth the reformation of this Realme to be warranted by the woord of God and the auncient faith of Christs Church and the Iesuites for all their crakes to bee nothing lesse than Catholikes To the Christian Reader IT is some time since good Christian Reader that lighting on the Iesuits Apologie I receiued the same with purpose to refute it if the matter so imported Perusing it ouer I found it curiouslie penned with picked termes and beautified with plausible and popular persuasions reasons but as for substaÌ„ce or learning or weight of proofe I saw nothing in it that should occupie a meane Scholer the space of two daies Laying that booke therefore aside I determined at mine own choice and libertie to handle the matters there most impugned I meane the othe and the Princes supremacy in such sort as men of meane capacitie abused by their secret whisperinges and open raylings might plainly perceiue both the Princes power to commaund for truth to be lawfull and good and the Iesuits cauils impugning the same to be vaine and childish As I was in this resolution saw no cause for that I should refute no direct aduersarie to make more hast than both health which was not great businesse which I cannot want would suffer me there hapned an iniurie to bee offered to the inheritance of the College where I am by a false title deriued from before the foundation of the house and so strengthened on euery side with auncient deedes and euidence that the forgerie was hard to bee discerned and harder to be conuinced but by infinite searching in the muniments of many churches and Bishopricks as well as in our owne and re-examining sundrie large and laborious commissions which they had taken out before my time to testifie the keeping and iustifie the deliuering of those suspected deedes and ligiers To the deâ—ecting and impugning of this no person was or would be vsed I speake for the paines and not for the skill but my selfe the cause was so huge the comparing of the circumstances and contrarieties both of deeds and witnesses so tedious the proofe so perplexed and intricate and the daunger so neerely touched the whole state of the house I was forced for two yeares to lay all studies aside and addict my selfe wholy first to the deprehending and then to the pursuing of this falsehood No sooner had I breathed from this vnwoonted trauell and betaken my selfe to my former purpose but my happe was to light on the Iesuites Defence of English Catholikes not hauing the Authors name but in order of writing and phrase of speech resembling right D. Allen the maker of their Apologie Looking earnestly into the contents thereof I perceiued the pen-man to haue such confidence in his tongue that hee doubted not but to ouerrule the world with words his pretensed policies So far he wadeth in other mens causes and common wealthes So boldly he pronounceth what himselfe pleaseth of Popes and princes and of their titles Counselles Lawes and actions neither alloweth hee any man to bee religious or catholike but such as him-selfe liketh and euerie-where hee sheweth a speciall care to smooth and stroke his holy Fathers indeuors and censures actes and iudgementes warres and wickednesse with termes of the greatest deuotion and reuerence subiecting all things vnder his feete inuesting him with both swords and suffering no man king nor Cesar to haue assurance of honor or life longer than he kneeleth downe and adoreth the image of the beast In this maiestical course surrly conceit hee goeth on thinking he can captiuate kingdomes with the volubilitie and intemperauncy of his tongue which is so swift to furnish a lie that he disdaineth the basenesse plainesse of trueth The saucinesse and egernesse of that Defence I was then and am yet persuaded to ouerskip as hauing learned that princes affaires and actions are aboue my vocation and wholy without my profession neither doe I thinke it lawfull for priuate men rashly to speake or possible for them vprightly to iudge of Princes doinges vnlesse they be fully acquainted with the secretes and circumstances of the things which Princes vse not to commit to many nor to any but those that are of their counsell I therefore then did now do determine to leaue this peremptorie prater whosoeuer he be to his own vaine knowing that besides open rightes and titles secret preuentions are often vsed betweene Realmes and sometimes reuenges which Magistrates by lawful meanes may procure Onely the Popes power to depriue Princes which with all his skill learning
skirmish and arming your selues with three scriptures and seuen fathers you thinke to vanquish and ouerrunne the Princes power in causes ecclesiasticall but soft Sirs you mistake your weapons their force is not great The nation and kingdome sayth God to Sion that wil not serue thee shal perish The kingdome he sayth not the king but graunt it were directly spoken of kings what seruice that is which God requireth of kings if you doe not knowe S. Austen will tel you In this sayth he Kings serue God if their kingdomes they command that which is good and forbid that which is euill not in temporall affayres onely but in matters of religion also And againe Yee Kings serue Christ in making lawes for Christ. So that the cōmanding their people to reuerence the word and obey the will of God and the making of strait lawes to keepe men in the faith and Church of Christ that is I say the seruice which Princes owe to God and his Sion and which you deny lawful for them to medle with By the two next places of S. Paul you prone that Pastors Bishops be rulers of the Church That worde Rulers you catch hold of as if the wordes in S. Paul did not also signifie feeders and leaders which be the two signes and dueties of good shepheards and yet we neuer denied but the messengers and disposers of Gods mysteries by preaching the woord administring the sacraments and well vsing the keyes haue their internall and spirituall regiment ouer the soules and consciences as wel of Princes as others which is the true meaning of the place that you bring out of Nazianzene Athanasius Osius Leontius Hilarie and Ambrose sharply reproue Constantius Valentinian for taking vpon them to chaunge the faith abolish the godhead of Christ plainely told those Princes they were no iudges of faith nor arbiters of doctrine which was true which false neither might they so much as interpose their iudgement or authoritie whiles such cases were debated That very lesson haue wee from the beginning taught with our lippes sealed with our blood more stedfastly than you We neuer gaue prince nor Pope right to controle the trueth or reuerse the worde which God hath established in his Church and the constant auouching thereof against earthly States powers hath cost vs as you can not choose but knowe many thousande mens liues Yet this is no let but Princes as well as other priuate persons may trie spirits and beware false Prophets And this I trust you dare not impugne that Princes may doe that for Christ which you defend they must do for Antichrist graunt vs that we require no more Chrysostome is the last of the seuen Christ sayth he when he willed Peter to feede his sheepe cōmitted the charge of them to Peter Peters successors Meaning by Peters successors not onely the bishops of Rome but him selfe and all other Bishops as appeareth by his owne words in the same place This was Christes purpose at that time when he sayd feede my sheepe to teach Peter and the rest of vs howe well he loued his Church that therefore we also should take the charge and care of the same Church with al our hearts Ambrose extendeth the wordes of Christ in like manner to al Bishops preachers It was thrise repeated by the Lord feed my sheepe Which sheepe which flocke not onely Peter receiued then in charge but he with vs and wee all with him receiued them in cure And so doth Austen When it is said to Peter it is said to all Louest thou me Feede my sheepe That women may not vndertake this charge to feede Christs sheepe it was needelesse to cite Chrysostome S. Paul sayde it before in other wordes and wee bee farre from any such follie These bee the maine and mightie proofes wherewith you thought to shake the Princes seate which conclude vtterly nothing against that we defende nor against that her Maiestie claymeth or vseth The rest of your authorities which be sixe touch not vs at all nor any thing in question betwixt you and vs saue the last where S. Hierom writeth to Damasus He that gathereth not with thee scattereth Which words we graunt were very true when S. Hierom spake them for that Damasus rightly professed the Christian fayth which the Bishop of Rome now doeth not and by gathering with him is ment no subiection to him but a felowship with him in teaching the same trueth and keeping the bande of peace which is common to all Christians Your fift chapter which should cleere you from false doctrine and proue you to be good Catholiques hath in all but one Section of twentie sixe lines to that purpose the rest is a desperate discourse of your owne full of your bolde assertions vayne presumptions without scripture or father that helpeth you or hindereth vs. For prayer for the dead you alledge S. Augustine for honouring of Kelikes and Pilgrimage S Hierom for vocation of Saints worshipping the crosse and memories of Martyrs S. Cyril for the sacrifice of the Masse Saint Chrysostome for the corporall presence of Christ in the Sacrament the Lateran Councell for Images the second Councel of Nice Gregorie to Serenus and Damascene for the power of Priesthood to remit sinnes S. Ambrose A weake foundation to beare so great a frame Cyril Chrysostome and Ambrose in the places which you quote teache nothing lesse than those errors and abuses which you mayntaine The seconde Councell of Nice was very neere 800 the Lateran Councell aboue a thousand yeres after Christ both too yong to make any doctrine Catholique Gregorie liketh that stories should be painted in the Church but adoration of thē he detesteth which yet that wicked Councell of Nice did after establish Damascene you may take backe againe his credite is so smale that we neede not answere him S. Hierom is hoat against Vigilantius and so hoat that Erasmus is faine to say Conuiciis debacchatur Hieronimus Hierom rayleth without measure Yet the most honour that he gaue to the bodies or ashes of Martyrs by whom God after their deaths wrought great miracles was to be fairely wrapt and honestly kept in their Chappels The tending of tapers and setting vp of waxe candles before them he denieth to be vsed in the Church in other places if any such thing were he imputeth it to the vnskilfulnesse and simplicitie of some Lay men and deuout women that had zeale but not according to knowledge What is this for your defence You make newe Relikes you set foorth vnshamefast Legends and deuise false miracles to deceiue the people you giue them Pardons for manie thowsande thowsande yeeres you promise them helpe in all their needes and effect in all their desires you make a very marte of the graces and gyftes of God to cause men to runne from place to place from Saint to Saint
wils you be deceiued not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God which maketh those willing at last which were vnwilling at first Did the Niniuites repent against their willes because they did it at the compulsion of their king What needed the kings expresse commandement that all men should humbly submit themselues to God but that there were some amongst them which neither would haue regarded nor beleeued Gods message had they not bene terrified by the kings edict This Princely power and authoritie giueth many mē occasion to be saued which though they were violently brought to the feast of the great housholder yet being once cōpelled to come in they find there good cause to reioyce that they did enter against their willes When Petilian obiected that no man must be forced by lawes to doe well or to beleeue S. Austen replieth To faith in deed may no man vnwilling bee forced but yet by Gods iustice or rather mercy The breath of faith is chastened with the rod of affliction Because the best thinges are freely chosen with good lyking must not therefore ill deedes be punished by syncere Lawes You be not forced to doe well by these lawes that are made against you but forbidden to doe euill Preposterous were discipline to reuenge your ill liuing but when you first contemne the doctrine that teacheth you to liue well And euen they which make lawes to bridle your headynes are they not those which beare the sworde as Paul speaketh not without cause being Gods ministers and executors of wrath on him that doth ill Who list to be farther satisfied that Christian Princes may compel their subiects to the true worship of God prescribed in his word and punish the refusers let him read at large the places aboue cited or shortly consider that the spirit of God cōmendeth king Iosiah for making all Ierusalem and Beniamin to stand to the couenant which he renewed with God and COMPELLING ALL THAT WERE FOVND IN ISRAEL TO SERVE THE LORD THEIR GOD. So that you might haue well spared your wanton complaint to God and kept in your Crocodiles teares Your Soueraigne doeth nothing against you but what is agreeable to Gods and mans lawe consonant to the doctrine of our Churhes much easier than that which your selues practised on others neither is this our question what rites you consented vnto but what fayth Christ deliuered his Church in the writings of his Apostles and Euangelists for to that euery man which is baptised may bee lawfully forced by the Princes authoritie let him and his forefathers assent to what they list except you can proue that baptisme serueth no longer for a sacrament of Christian religion but goeth now for a Romish recognisance Phi. Our griefe of heart is much encreased either when we looke into other States and Countries as Germania Suitzerland Suecia Boemia and the like where though there haue bene great alterations in religion these late yeeres yet lightly none bee forced so but if they can not haue the exercise of their profession in one torritorie Canton towne Church or Parish yet they may haue it neere them in an other as also in all the Prouinces and Kingdomes subiect either to the Persians or the Turke at this day The old Christians be permitted to vse freely their deuotions or when we looke backe to the like distresses of Catholikes in old time when certaine Emperours were chiefe fautors of Arianisme and other Sectes who yet were often enduced of their naturall benignitie to yeeld certaine Churches or at lest Oratories in Churchyards and other places adioyning for the Catholique seruice in their dominions So did Constantius the Arian Emperour Valens graunt to S. Athanasius and his followers in Alexandria which Valens God plagued afterward because he would not suffer the same at Antioche Valentinian also the yonger profered the like to S. Ambrose in Millan Theo. Are you well in your wits to lament the lacke of that in this Realme which God in plaine words detesteth and with sore plagues reuengeth Haue you forgotten how sharply king Achab and the commons of Israel were reproued of Elias for that error He did not say why permit you not those that will to the Lord those that list to Baal but how long halt you betweene two sides or opiniōs If the Lord be God follow him forsaking al other if Baal be God get you after him Since then it is confessed on both partes yours and ours that there can bee no God saue the Lord and hee neuer ment to surrender any piece of his glorie but is so ielous of it that hee wil be serued and onely serued with all our heart mind and strength these things I say being out of question I recken it can not stande with a Princes duetie to reuerse this heauenly decree THOV SHALT VVORSHIP THE LORD THY GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOV SERVE with establishing two religions in one Realme the first authorized by Christ bequeathed in his testament to the Church the next inuented of Antichrist and flatly repugnant to the propheticall and Apostolicall scriptures For if God be trueth they which presume to worship him with lies as in contrarie faith must needes come to passe serue nowe not God but the deuill a lyer himselfe and the father of lyes whose seruice no Christian Prince may so much as tolerate What are saith Vincentius strange Gods but strange errors which the scriptures so cal figuratiuely for that heretiques reuerence their opinions no lesse than the Gentiles their Gods By the which wee learne that the first precept forbidding moe Gods than one barreth all other seruices of the same God saue that which himselfe hath appointed for himselfe It is the vilest basest kinde of idolatrie when men worship their owne fansies obseruing that for a religion which their deceiued and swelling minds imagine Then may not Princes winke at corrupt vitious religion which is an inward ghostly worship of Idoles seeing no man therefore no Prince can serue two masters the seruice that Princes yeelde Christ in respect of their royall vocation consisteth in making lawes for Christ which if they doe likewise for Antichrist it can not be salued but that they serue God and Mammon or rather cease to bee the seruaunts of Christ in that they renounce their master by seruing his aduersarie Nowe what accompt God will exact for his name blasphemed his sonne refused his sacraments prophaned his word exiled and what answere must be made for the ruine of faith haruest of sinne murder of soules consequent alwaies to the publique freedome of heresies I leaue to bee fully considered and wisely preuented by Christian Magistrates who must thinke that silence prouoketh sufferance boldeneth their subiectes to forsake God and his Church euen as in ciuill affaires the slacking of iustice doth maintaine disorder So that in this point your defender betrayeth his vnsetled humor which
I know not with what extremitie Phi. Neither be such men miserable onely by so long lacke of things necessarie to saluation but much more that they be inforced to things which assuredly procure damnation In which case verie lamentable it is to thinke vpon all the distressed consciences that throughout the Realme repine with inconsonable sighes and grones against their receiuing hearing and vsing of the pretended Sacraments Seruice Sermons and other actions whereunto they be inuoluntarilie and against their will drawen and especiallie for the oth of the Queenes soueraintie in spirituall regiment a thing improbable vnreasonable vnnaturall impossible and yet the forme thereof so conceiued in statute and so tendered that the takers must sweare vpon the Euangelists howsoeuer they thinke in deede that they acknowledge euen in their conscience that which neuer learned man of any sort or sect did euer thinke to be true and which they know euerie Catholike man to condemne in heart and which the chiefe makers of the same by exempting themselues from it by a speciall prouiso haue iudged either damnable or very dangerous Which oth therefore to exact of most Officers in the Commonwealth of euery one that is preferred in the Vniuersities or otherwise almost throughout the Realme and namely of all such as they suspect thinke it vntrue is nothing else but wittingly to driue men to pitifull torment of minde remorse and vtter desperation Which thing if hir Maiestie did know she would neuer of hir naturall clemencie for a title claime that neuer king much lesse Queene ChristiaÌ„ nor Heathen Catholick nor Hereticke in hir owne dominions or in all the world beside before our age did chalendge or accept suffer hir poore subiectes to be so inwardly and deepelie afflicted in their soules c. Theo. I confesse the lacke of things necessarie to saluation maketh men verie miserable but you should haue shewed what those thinges are which this Realme wanteth your mouth is no measure what is requisite for the sauing of our soules and your reader I dare saie looked for some grauer authoritie Receiue with meekenes the word that is graffed amongst you saith Iames it is able to saue your soules So long as wee refuse no part of the Gospell which is the power of God for the saluation of euery beleeuer al other waÌ„ts we nothing esteeme S. Paul doth acertaine vs that the Scriptures are able to direct and instruct to saluation by faith in Christ Iesus Lesse wee beleeue not more we neede not dreame you what you list of damnation or saluation the comfort of Scriptures shall nourish our hope It greeueth you sore to thinke on the distressed consciences of such as be drawen against their wills to frequent our Sacraments and Seruice Beginne you now to mislike that any mans conscience should be forced Then why did you why yet at this day do you force numbers with extreme violence to recant forsweare the perswasiou of their faith what reason can you bring that you may compell others and none must compell you Where gat you that exemption Or if compulsion be lawfull for both sides alike why grate you so much at our small and easie penalties when your selues bee iustly charged with many cruell and vnchristian tragedies Your inquisiting your burning your murdering of thowsands without any respect of innocent or ignorant is in deede very lamentable this kinde of compelling which hir Highnesse vseth neither can your friendes denie to be charitable nor your selfe gainsaie to bee semblable to that coaction which the Scriptures commend in Iosiah which the most vertuous Emperours followed in the primitiue Church and which S. Austen vpon deepe deâ—â—ating the case found allowed by God himselfe as the chiefest point of that seruice which he requireth of Christian Princes Our Sacraments Seruice and Sermons are you say pretended wee say reformed by the constat of Christs will and testament farther defence till you name the faultes shall be needlesse Lightly saide without proofe may bee lightly contemned without answere The Princes interest to Persons and causes ecclesiasticall sticketh in your stomacks as a thing improbable vnreasonable vnnaturall impossible which neuer king much lesse Queene Christian or Heathen Catholike or Hereticke in this lande or in all the world beside before our age did chalenge or accept If great vauntes were sound proofes the victorie were yours You haue wordes and crakes at will they cost you nothing as for the matter in question when wee are come to your fourth chapter where you seeme to shew the ground of these speeches it shall then appeare notwithstanding your tempest of tearmes here and trifling cauelles there that the power of Princes to commaunde for truth and to make lawes for Christ standeth not onely with probabilitie possibilitie reason and nature but also with euident vtilitie necessitie religion and equitie confirmed expreslie by the Scriptures and plainly warranted by the lawes actions and examples of the most famous and renowmed Princes that euer were keepe your courage for that combat the time is not long Phi. I am content to respect you till then yet this I will adde by the way the contentes of that oth for the Princes supremacie neuer learned man of any sort or sect did thinke to be euer true Theo. No what did the Bishoppes and Preachers of England for these fiftie yeares which liked and accepted this oth for good and godlie Not a learned man among them saie you then happie be those Seminaries of yours that of ignorant boyes starting hence but last daie can so soone bring foorth learned and graue Diuines What say you then to some of your owne sect I meane Tonstall in his Epistle to Cardinall Poole and Gardiner in his Oration of true obedience Did not either of them take this or the like oth and willinglie defende the same Phi. They changed their mindes in Queene Maries time Theo. They did so but their latter inconstancie doth not abolish the truth of their former confession Well if this whole Realme be voide of learning such is your modestie come to strangers Was there euer any learned of our side that impugned your errors I trust you will not reiect them as vnlearned left men beginne to doubt not of your learning but of your right wittes Graunt them to be learned and I will proue their iudgements to goe with ours in this question You require me to shew their wordes Ywis that were no great masterie Reade Molineus against your holy Fathers abuses Peter Martyr vpon the 19. chapter of Iudges Symlerus his preface before Boetius Cassianus Gelasius c. And tell me what difference betwixt vs and them But I choose rather to produce the Common wealthes where these learned men and infinite mo did and do liue for beholding their deedes what neede we their wordes Their actions will testifie their opinions Scotland Flaunders Denmarke Suetia Polonia Bohemia the free Cities and States of Germanie
dignitie but not ouer the rest in power and authoritie His place was first when the Patriarkes met but his voyce not negatiue he might assemble his prouince and consult with them but not conclude without them himselfe was subiect both to the decrees of Councels and to the lawes of the Christian Emperours euen in causes ecclesiasticall and was oftentimes not only resisted by famous men but ouer-ruled as well by prouinciall as ecumenicall Councels when he attempted any thing against the Canons Which differeth much from the supremacie that he now chalengeth and vsurpeth And therefore you did wel to walke in a mist of ambiguous wordes to couer the lamenesse of your conclusion Phi. Why did Athanasius flee to the Bishoppe of Rome for helpe if Iulius had nought to do with his matter Theo. Athanasius being wrongfully thrust from his Bishopricke and an other forciblie set in his roome by certaine Arians assembled at Antioche vpon this pretence that he was deposed in the Councell of Tirus before he was banished and after his returne presumed of his own head without a Councell to reenter and keepe his place and finding the East Church not able to succour him for that Constantius the Emperour supported his enemies with a strong hand fled to the Bishop of the West where Constans a religious and curteous Prince brother to Constantius raigned and made his complaint as reason was he should first to the Bishop of Rome the cheefest man amongst them and the ringleader of the rest with whom he was ioined in consort and communion as the right and true Patriarke of Alexandria desiring no more but that his case might be heard and the desperate and furious proceedings of his aduersaries against him examined in a iust and lawfull Councell Which petition of Athanasius doth not proue the West Bishops to be controllers and ouerseers of such things as were done in the East much lesse the Bishop of Rome to be supreme Iudge ouer all but rather sheweth that the Church of Christ was guided by the common consent and mutuall agreement of both parts as well East as West indifferently balanced and that the West Bishops might call for a reason of the sentence giuen against Athanasius before they allowed the same or receiued his successour to the felowship of their communion Phi. The ecclesiasticall historie saith otherwise that Athanasius opened his cause to Iulius Bishop of Rome and that hee vpon the prerogatiue of the Romane See wrote threatning letters in his behalfe and restored him to his place reprouing them that rashly deposed him Theo. Socrates as an Historiographer noteth in fewe wordes the chiefe points and chiefe persons but if you will take the paines to reade the particular discourse of these thinges which Athanasius writeth in defence of himselfe you shal find that true which I say Phi. What shall we finde Theo. That the West Bishops were ioyned with Iulius in all this action and nothing done without their Sinodal decree Phi. How proue you that Theo. First the letters of credit which Athanasius brought with him to Rome from the Bishops of his communion in Egypt Thebais Lybia Pentapolis witnessing the manifold wrongs which he suffered and earnestly crauing a dew reformation of the same were written not to Iulius alone but Omnibus vbique ecclesiae catholicae Episcopis to all the Bishops of the Catholique Church wheresoeuer hauing these words in the cōclusion For this cause in a publike assemblie by the consent of vs all wrate wee these letters vnto you praying your wisedomes in Christ to receiue this testimonie touching Athanasius to admit him to your fellowship and communion and to bee moued with a zealous indignation against the Eusebians his enemies the authors of these disorders and that such lewdnes and mischiefe preuaile no longer against the Church vos certe vindices huius iniustitiae imploramus we call for your help to be the reuengers of their vnrighteous dealing Haec quidem Aegyptij ad omnes ad Episcopum Romanum Iulium scripsere this they of Egypt wrate to all and to Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that in sight the complaint was made generally to them all Phi. But Iulius alone cited the contrarie part to appeare before him by a day limited and that argueth his authoritie ouer them that were not of his Prouince Theo. Iulius by the consent of both parts and aduise of all the Bishops of Italie and other places neere him appointed the matter to be heard in a Councell and exhorted the aduersaries of Athanasius to bee present at the time and place prefixed Phi. What a mincing you make of this matter Iulius cited that is Iulius exhorted them to come Iulius heard the cause that is Iulius called a Councell to heare it Theo. What a mountaine you make of a mole hill I repeate the very wordes of Iulius and good reason in his owne fact to beleeue him best Phi. If he say so but I doubt you mistake the words Theo. Then may you take them righter but I am perfect I misse them not Heare first what Athanasius and then after what Iulius writeth Quin Eusebiani ad Iulium literas misere vt nos terrerent Synodum conuocari iusserunt ipsi Iulio si vellet arbitrium causae detulerunt The Eusebians also sent letters to Iulius and the rather to fray vs willed a Synode to be called and Iulius himselfe to be Iudge in the cause if he would Which Socrates doeth not omit Eusebius verò cum quod volebat perfecisset legationem ad Iulium Romanum Episcopum misit obsecrans vt ipse Iudex esset in causa Athanasij ad se litem hanc vocaret Eusebius when he had done all that he woulde sent messengers to Iulius Bishop of Rome praying him to be Iudge in the cause of Athanasius and to call for the hearing of this contention Phi. Athanasius aduersaries seeme to consent that Iulius alone shoulde sit Iudge in this cause Theo. That Iulius as chiefe but not that Iulius alone should examine this quarel For they required to be heard in a common Councell both of East and West Bishops Phi. As yet I see no such thing Theo. Say not so for Athanasius euen now told you that his enemies to fray him in their letter to Iulius willed a Councell to be held for this matter and Iulius in his epistle replying to those that were gathered at Antioch the second tyme writeth thus What is there done worthie of offence or what cause haue I giuen you to whom I wrate to be angrie An quia adhortati vos sumus vt ad Synodum occurreretis Is it for that we exhorted you to meet vs at a Synode The Bishops assēbled in the great Coūcel of Nice not without the wisedom of God gaue leaue that the acts of one Synode myght be discussed in an other to this end that both they which were Iudges knowing a secōd examination of the
self same matter was to folow should with al diligence weigh the cause and those against whom sentence was giuen might cleerely confesse themselues to be condemned not by any faction of the former Iudges but iustly and worthily And if this were an auncient custome and the memorie therof renewed and put in writing by the great Nicene Councell you now will not suffer the same to take place with you trewly you doe an vnseemly thing For no equitie doth alow that a few of you shuld abrogate a custome once receaued in the Church confirmed by so great a Synode yet that being granted you the offence which you take is without al reason for your Legats Macarius and Hesiochus no way able to match those that Athanasius sent but in euery thing conuicted and refuted by them Concilium indici postularunt literasque ad Eusebianos Athanasium Alexandriam quibus conuocarentur mitti vt coram omnibus iusto iudicio de causa cognosci posset tunc enim se de Athanasio probaturos esse quod iam nequirent required a Councell to bee summoned and letters to be sent to the Eusebians and to Athanasius at Alexandria to giue them warning to come that the cause might bee debated before all in an euen and vpright iudgement adding that they would then conuince Athanasius of those things wherin now they failed Yea publikely in our presence Martyrius and Hesichius were confounded Athanasius Priestes readily answering them with great boldnes to say the trueth Martyrius and his side were alwayes put to the worst Ac proinde Concilium generale postulauit And for that cause he requested a generall assemblie of Bishoppes If therefore Martyrius and Hesichius your agents not requiring a Councell I had exhorted you that they which wrote to mee on either side might bee called to a Councell namely in fauour of my brethren which complayned they were oppressed that motion of mine had beene honest and iust for so much as it is acceptable to God agreeable to the Canons but now where those very men whom you counted to be discreete and worthy to be trusted with your message were the first inciters of mee to cal you to a Synode surely you ought not to take that in so ill part By these words these two pointes are more than manifest First that Iulius did not peremptorily commaund them to appeare before him but exhorted them to meete in a lawfull Councell for the better discussing of matters in question Next that for the warning of a Councel which should examine their acts hee pretendeth not his supreme power ouer all the Church nor his Lieutenantship to Christ but groundeth himselfe on their consents which were the chiefe authors of this tragedie and citeth the Nicene Councel agreeing with the auncient vsage of the Church that Synodes might discusse and redresse the wrongs done by Bishoppes Phi. You can not denie but Iulius heard their Legats before the Bishoppes met Theo. I graunt for his better information hee might heare them alone but not to giue iudgement thereof without others so sayth Iulius himselfe Athanasius was neither condemned at Tyrus nor present at Mareota where you proceeded in his absence And you know that the records of those acts bee very suspitious and of no force where one part onely was admitted to proue Yet we though it were so for the more full discussing of the matter did neither preiudice you that wrate against him nor those that wrate for him but exhorted all as many as wrate to present themselues here in iudgement that all thinges might exactly bee skanned in a Synode In the which Synode when the contrary side refused to appeare Athanasius was hearde at large and there receiued to the communion of all the West Church as right Bishoppe of Alexandria notwithstanding his former deposition by the Bishoppes at Antioche and the violent intrusion of an other in his place Phi. This you say but this you proue not Theo. If Athanasius say the same it is proofe sufficient and that you shall heare him say Viton the Priest whom Iulius sent for that purpose brought with him to the councel moe than fiftie Bishops where our defence was admitted and wee counted worthie to bee receiued to their communion and brotherly feast and great indignation kindled against the Eusebians to whome they willed Iulius to write backe in his owne name for that their letters were written to him not to them And so Iulius did putting them to wit which is the thing that you stagger at that although his name were alone to the letters yet the common consent approbation of the Synode wanted not to the matter Notwithstanding saith he that I alone wrate to you yet I wrate the iudgement and opinion not of my selfe onely but of all the Bishops of Italie and of all in these quarters The Bishops met at the time appointed and were of that mynde which I nowe signifie to you againe wherfore though I alone write yet I would haue you knowe that I write the common opinion of them all And his Epistle ended This sayth Athanasius the Synode at Rome wrate by Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that all this while Iulius did nothing of himselfe without a Synode neither did hee or the Synode challenge any superioritie ouer the East Bishops but rather an equalitie with them and for that cause might require to see the reason of their doings against Athanasius before they would reiect him as no Bishop and communicate with Gregorie that was placed in his seate And so much the East Bishops should haue doone without asking For where a prouinciall Synode bindeth no man out of the same Prouince they were by the discipline and custome of the Church to sende their letters to the Bishops of euery Prouince namely to the chiefest and to expect the general consent of their brethren before they proceeded to the deposition of a Bishop and so great Bishoppe as the Patriarke of Alexandria was which is the thing that Iulius vrgeth them with Si vt dicitis omnino in culpa fuerunt oportuit secundum Canonem non isto modo iudicium fieri oportuit scribere omnibus nobis vt ita ab omnibus quod iustum esset decerneretur Episcopi enim erant non vulgares ecclesiae qui ista patiebantur If as you pretend they were guiltie in deede yet iudgement should haue gone forwarde according to the Canon of the Church and not after this strange sort you should haue written to vs all that that which had been iust might haue been determined by all For they were Bishops and no meane Churches that were thus vsed By this you see that in ayding and helping Athanasius the Bishop of Rome did neither by worde nor deed take vpon him to be vicar generall to Christ on earth nor supreme iudge of all men and matters in the Church as nowe he doeth but claymeth rather
of her death Theo. Then suerly was Innocentius all that while a sleepe for the continuall entercourse betweene the two Cities both for temporall and ecclesiasticall affaires was so great the person so famous the time so long that no meane man in Rome could bee ignorant of her death Besides that Innocentius Legats were at Constantinople to intreate Arcadius for a Councell a litle before Chrysostome died and there vnlesse they wanted both eyes and eares they could not choose but learne that the Empresse was dead Phi. She was then liuing as Nicephorus saith Theo. The more he fableth the lesse credite he deserueth Eudoxia died before Arsacius and after his death was Atticus chosen then how could she bee liuing when Atticus was Bishop in whose time the Legats of Innocentius came to intreat for Chrysostome Phi. Let Nicephorus answere for himselfe I layde before you what I finde in him Theo. If this be all you can say for his defence giue vs leaue to tell you that this Bull bearing Innocentius name is some foolish and late forgerie deuised to perswade men that Popes in those dayes coulde quaile Emperours which God knoweth is nothing so Next for Chrysostomes cause as it helpeth you litle so doeth it hinder you much For first Chrysostome when himselfe and his Clergie were called to appeare before the Synode where Theophilus the Patriarke of Alexandria his mortall enemie was the chiefe man appealed from them not to the Bishoppe of Rome but to a generall Councell So sayth Socrates Iohannes eos a quibus vocabatur tanquam inimicos exceptione recusabat vniuersalem Synodum appellabat Chrysostome refused those that called him vppon this exception that they were his enemies and appealed to a generall Councell So sayth Chrysostome himselfe Though wee were absent and appealed to a Synode and sought for iudgement and refused not audience but manifest enimitie yet Theophilus receiued accusors against mee excommunicated such as helde with mee and tooke libels at all their hands which had not yet purged themselues of such crimes as were layde to their charge al which things are contrarie to the lawes and Canons Next when Innocentius saw the matter could not be ended but in a general Councel by reason the three Patriarks of Constantinople Antioche Alexandria were against him he sent Legats to Honorius and Arcadius to beseech them that a Synode might be had and the time and place appointed Wherin his supplication was so litle regarded that his Legats were sent away with reproch as disturbers of the west Empire and Chrysostome caried farther off in banishment than before Lastly when such as fauoured Chrysostome in the East parts would not cōmunicate with his enemies but ioyned themselues in communion with the Bishop of Rome who likewise seuered himselfe from those that were the beginners of this garboyle Arcadius made this Law If any Bishop refuse to communicate with Theophilus Atticus and Porphyrius hee shall loose both his Church and his goods If any that beare office they shall forfeite their dignitie If any Souldier hee shall lose his seruice If any of the common people let them bee fyned and exiled Phi. Will you nowe trust Nicephorus Theo. Sozomene in effect sayth the same For the communion of Arsacius Porphyrius and Theophilus at the suite of the Nobles there was a lawe made that no Christians should meete at prayers out of their Churches and those that woulde not communicate with these three Patriarkes should bee expelled So smally was Innocentius communion at that time respected that the followers of it were sharply punished Phi. You know what manner of men they were that did it Theo. Such as you may not easily despise Entending to write the wrong done to Chrysostome sayth Theodorete I am forced to shrinke at the doers thereof for their other vertues Atticus as Socrates confesseth was a very learned religious and wise man Porphyrius sayth Theodorete left many monuments of his benignitie being a man endewed with excellent wisedome Arcadius besides that Chrysostome calleth him after his banishment Christianissimum pientissimum Regem a most Christian and Godly prince a litle before his death wan estimation of holynes not without the admiration of a great multitude saued from destruction by his prayers Theophilus Epiphanius and others that held tooth and nayle against him were no babes in the Church of Christ. Cyrillus a famous father was after long time with much adoe drawen to yeeld thus much that Chrysostomes name should be rehearsed in the Catalogue of those that had bene Bishops Arsacius if Cyrillus may bee trusted was a blessed man and most worthie of commendation Phi. You goe about to deface Chrysostome by commending his enemies Theo. It is the least part of my thought and yet Socrates doth not altogether excuse him in saying hee was a man Iracundiae magis quà m reuerentiae indulgens more addicted to serue his passions than to reuerence any person And surely the wordes that he spake of the Empresse in his sermon openly before all the people Againe Herodias is madde againe she rageth againe shee daunceth againe she wil haue Iohns head in a dish were very bitter but my meaning is to shewe they were great and good men in the Church that about Chrysostoms quarrell were it right were it wrong neglected the communion of the Bishop of Rome Phi. Though they made light of it in this tumult and faction yet Augustine Hierom and others did highly esteeme it Theo. The communion and felowship of Christian loue and peace may not rashly be broken with any Church especially not with the chiefe and principall Churches vnlesse the cause be weightie and vrgent but looke whē the Bishop of Rome attempted any thing against the faith or the Canons tel me then what accompt they made of him Phi. That you must looke out I know no such thing Theo. So will I when my course commeth but yours as yet is not ended Phi. Myne shall not bee long Theo. As short as you will I thinke the best be spent Phi. Augustine and the fathers assembled in the Mileuitan Councell aske helpe of Innocentius for the condemnation of Pelagius and his heresie Theo. The Bishops of Africa themselues in this and an other Councell helde at Carthage condemned the error of Pelagius as repugnant to the Scriptures and iniurious to the grace of God And because it was a matter of faith that indifferently concerned all they thought it necessarie to aduertise the Bishop of Rome what they had done and to pray him also to condemne the same that as the infection was farre spred and found many defenders so the condemnation thereof might be generall and ratified by the publique liking of the Bishops in euery prouince What can you gather by this but that it was then the manner of the Church as in trueth it was by their letters sent too and fro both to aske and to giue
Importuni vt accipiant inquieti donec accipiant ingrati vbi acceperint Docuerunt linguam suam grandia loqui cum operentur exigua largissimi promissores parcissimi exhibitores blandissimi adulatores mordacissimi detractores simplicissimi dissimulatores malignissimi proditores What hath been so famous for many yeres as the frowardnes and hautines of the Romanes A nation not acquainted with peace accustomed to tumults A nation fierce intractable to this day not able to be ruled but when it cannot resist Listen a while whether I knowe the manners of that people or no. The Romanes are wise to do euill good they know not how to do Irreligious toward God presumpteous against holy things seditious among thēselues enuious to their neighbours vncurteous to strangers They wil neither obey nor can tel how to rule vnfaithfull to their superiours vntolerable to their inferiours shameles to aske bold to denie Importune to haue vnquiet til they haue vnthākful when they haue great speakers litle doers Most liberal to promise most loth to performe most sweet to flatter most bitter to backbite most curious dissēblers most mischieuous traitors Lupi sunt c. They bee wolues not sheepe of such art thou shepheard If I durst speake all they be rather pastures of diuels than sheepe Phi. If this be true they be changed in deed Theo. The truth thereof you may not wel doubt vnlesse you wil now returne him for a liar whom Alexander the 3. 400. yeres since did canonize for a saint but wil you stand to his iudgemēt whose name you pretēd Phi. What els Theo. Thē gaine you litle for the cōmendation of Rome For Hierom doth attribute no more to the Romanes than Paul doth to the Iewes which is to be naturally zealous And this as in true religiō we compt it praise worthie so whē error preuaileth nothing is more pestilent Again this one vertue of theirs is by by requited in the very same place with two shrewd vices Rursus facilitatis superbiae arguuntur Paul noteth the Romanes saith he to be proud of nature easily seduced What els he found in thē what he thought of thē you shal soone perceiue if you list to beleeue him Narrant historiae tam gracae quālatinae nihil Iudaeorū Romanorū gente esse auarius The stories both greek Latine confesse none to bee more couetous than the Iewes the Romanes Difficile est in maledica ciuitate non aliquā sinistri rumoris fabulā contrahere It is an hard matter in this slanderous citie of Rome to be free from il tongues Nullane fuit alia in toto orbe prouincia quae reciperet praeconiū voluptatis nisi quam Petri doctrina super Petrāfūdauerat Christū Was there neuer an other place in al the world to receiue this voluptuous doctrine but that which Peters preaching had built on the rock christ Cum babilone versarer purpuratae meretricis esse colonus iure Quiritū viuerē ecce olla illa quae in Hieremia cernitur a facie Aquilonis cepit ardere Pharisaeorū conclamauit Senatus omnis quasi indicto sibi praelio doctrinarū aduersū me imperitiae factiō coniurauit Whiles I staied at Babilon was an inhabitant of that purple whore liued amongst the Romanes beholde the pot which was seene in Hieremie frō the North began to seeth the Senate of Pharisees made an vprore the whole faction of rude ignorant as it were in defiance of learning conspired against me He y◠saith the Romans be zealous addeth also that they be couetous enuious luxurious proud pharises Lay your one vertue to these foure vices which Hierom saw growing and Bernarde found ripe at Rome and tell vs what you get by this accompt With as great discretion you cite the words of S. August S. Cypriā for the praise of the see of Rome drawing S. Augustins words frō their true meaning corrupting in Cyprian both the saying the sense For S. Aug. saith Heretikes barke in vaine at the church not of Rome but of Christ. And Cyprian meaneth himself not that bishop of Rome whē he saith Ob hoc ecclesiae praepositu persequitur vt gubernatore sublato atrocius atque violentius circa ecclesiae naufragia grassetur The aduersarie for this cause persueth the bishop of the church that the gouernor being made out of the way the shipwrack of the church may follow with the greater mischief violence Other words in y◠epistle which you quote there be none these differ much from the words which you alleage They baul against the Pastor the sooner to sease vpon the flocke as Cypriā speaketh And so with three maymed and miswrested authorities you close vp the loosenes of your secōd chapter Phi. S. Aug. surely meaneth the see of Rome whē he saith Quae ab Apostolica sedeper successiones Episcoporū frustra circūlatrantibus haerelicis culmen autoritatis obtinuit Which frō the Apostolik See by successiōs of bishops heretiks barking roūd about in vaine hath obtained the highest authority Theo. Meane what you wil by Apostolike See the word frustra haereticis circumlatrantibus heretikes barking on euery side in vaine must be referred either to the chiefest or els to the nearest substātiue in the sentēce Sedes apostolica is neither The chiefest substātiue is the catholike church the nearest is the successiōs of bishops on one side the heigth of authoritie on the other side For thus saith Aust. Shal we dout to cōmit our selues to the bosome of that catholike church which by the confessiō of al mē frō the Apostles seate or time by many successiōs of bishops heretiks barking on euery side in vaine hath gotten the chiefest credite or authoritie By this assertiō heretikes did bark in vaine either at the catholike church it selfe or at the successiōs of bishops or at the credite authoritie which the Church of Christ had by the confessiō of al mē But that they did bark in vaine at the see of Rome I find no such thing in these words of Aust. Phi. The church receiued her authoritie frō the Apostolik See which is Rome Theo. The phrase ab ipsa Petri sede frō Peters seate which is vsual in S. Aust. more effectual thē this doth not signifie frō Rome but from Peters seat As Numerate sacerdotes vel ab ipsa Petri sede Nūber the priests not frō Rome but frō Peters seate that is frō Peters time And again Tenet me ab ipsa Petri sede successio sacerdotū The succession of priests frō Peters time staieth me in the church And likewise in this place Ab apostolica sede frō the apostles seat is euer since the apostle sate that the words following confirme For in Rome you can recken but one successiō of bishops Austē saith Ab apostolica sede per successiones Episcoporū by many successions
of bishops euen froÌ„ the apostles time So that neither the words which you alleage should be referred to Sedes Apostolica the apostolike seate nor if they were doth yâ— phrase infer yâ— the church had al her credite froÌ„ Rome but yâ— by the confessioÌ„ of al men the catholike Church had bene in greatest credite euer since the time that Peter sate through the successions of her bishops heretiks barking against her in vain Phi. You said there was nothing in our secoÌ„d chapter worth answering it hath cost you more paines theÌ„ you thought Theo. Your general dissolute discourses I told you were to litle purpose For grant that some godly men resorted to Rome whiles the bishop there was equal with his brethren obedieÌ„t to the magistrate which is all that you proue what doth this help you to coÌ„clude that you may now runne to Rome the Pope clayming and vsurping a newe founde power repugnant to the scriptures iniurious to the Church of Christ and pernitious to the Prince whom God hath annoynted ouer you Phi. The Pope claymeth no such power as you speake of Theo. What power he claimeth vseth ouer princes is too wel knowen for you to denie The worlde hath had long experience of it this Realme hath had late What authoritie he chalengeth ouer the Church of Christ if he did keepe secret you doe not You make him the rocke of refuge in doubtful daies doctrines the chiefe pastor Bishop of your soules in earth The vicar generall of Christ and he that taketh these titles to himselfe without alowance from God is an enemie to Christ oppresseth his Church Phi. God hath allowed the Bishop of Rome that power which he claymeth Theo. That if you could proue the matter were answered that til you do proue your popular perswasions are as I said but lip-labour and no way concerne the cause Phi. That is shal be proued Theo. Neuer feede vs with shales you neuer were nor euer shall be able to proue it Phi. Suspend your iudgement till you see the end Theo. I am content to heare all mary in the meane time you may not presume that which is but lightly touched by you to be clerely proued Phi. We wil not Theo. By that which you haue done I gesse what you wil do We haue discussed two chapters of your Apology where we found nothing but words And therefore vnlesse you drawe to some matter I see no reason why I should stand refelling your phrases Phi. The thirde chapter goeth neerer Theo. In your third chapter what shall we find Phi. The meaning purpose why both our Seminaries were erected Theo. Your owne purposes you can best tell Phi. First to draw diuers youth who for their conscience liued in the lowe Countries from sole seueral voluntarie studie to a more exact methode course of common conference publike exercise to be pursued by their superiours appointment rather than their own choyse Secondly doubting the time of our chastisement might be so long as to weare out either by age imprisonment or other miseries the elder sort of the learned Catholikes both at home and abroad it was thought a necessarie duetie for thâ— posteritie to prouide for a perpetual seed supplie of Catholikes namely of the Clergie Thirdly their purpose was to draw vnto this College the best wits out of England that were either Catholikely bent or desirous of more exact educatioÌ„ than is in these daies in either of the vniuersities where through the delicacie of that sect there is no Art holy or prophane throughly studied some not touched at al or that had scruple of coÌ„scieÌ„ce to take the oth of the Queenes supremacie in causes ecclesiastical or that misliked to be forced to the Ministerie as the vse is in diuers Colleges a calling contemptible euen in their own conceipt very damnable in the iudgement of others or that were doutful whether of the two religions were true which hath driueÌ„ diuers ouer to their great satisfaction admiration of the euidence of our part These were the chiefe respects that led his holines to found our two Seminaries the fruits wherof we haue seene to our great comfort Theo. And this I see you keep your old wont You affirme what you list vpon your own credite disdaining your aduersaries as prophane vnlearned you coÌ„mend your selues for the onely minions of the world set this aside and what one thing is there in your third chapter worth the speaking to Phi. You mislike that Seminaries were appointed for English Students beyond the seas We now proue the first erection of them to be needful healthfull for this realme Theo. Sir your liege Ladie misliked and had good cause so to doe that her subiects were â—locked from her encouraged against her by your practises promises that her open and sworne enemie kept them in couerts which you cal Seminaries and trayned them vp at his charges to bee fit instruments for his secret deuises and purposes Of this you speake not a word but arrogantly defacing both Uniuersities with loosenes of life slackenes of studie you come in with your exact education holy conuersation as if the report of your owne vertues from your owne mouthes were enough to auoyd and preuent al obiections Phi. That answere might serue where nothing was proued but only surmised against vs. Theo. You forget that a Prince did obiect it to whom you were bound with all reuerence and duetie to make your ful and sufficient answere Phi. So haue we done Theo. Mary that you haue in deede The things misliked were these First that by your meanes yong boyes were prouoked and allured to forsake their parents vnstable wittes their Studies subiects their Prince without asking leaue no tyrannie nor torment inflicted or offered to cause them to flie Next that your seminaries as well for their direction as prouision do wholy depend on his pleasure fauour that hath euer since the beginning professed shewed himselfe a mortal enemie to your soueraigne deposing her Person inuading her land and pulling her subiects from her obedience Thirdly that your teachers learners in either of your colleges do not only nourish this trayterous position in their own brests that her highnesse neither is nor ought to bee taken for lawfull Queene of England longer than the Pope shall permit but also labour to poyson her people with that diuelish perswasion vnder colour of religion These points your Patrone cunningly skippeth and falleth to the coÌ„mending and preferring the maners orders vertues of your two Colleges before our two vniuersities which comparison is neither seemely to be published nor easie to be credited Phi. Concerning his holinesse intentions if they be any other in the institution entertainement of those Seminaries than ours are they by vnknowen to vs none being so presumptuous to search further into his secrets than standeth with his good
thou assay so mightie weapons If peace be abroad thou makest war at home neither can thy fierce pride away with rest Thou settest brother against brother father against sonne thou venterest on al mischief hatchest al vilany thou regardest neither right nor law thou beguilest both God man thou feaâ—est neither heauen nor hell Auentinus a man likewise of your side and not long since aliue complaineth not without cause Since the Bishop of Rome hath so great power why doth he not vse it since the haruest is so great why doth hee not reape why doth he not feed when he seeth so many sheepe die for hunger Why doth he set ouer the flocke goates wolues libidinous adulterous persons abusers of virgins and Nunnes cookes Mulettors theeues banckers vsurers drones hunters after gayne luxurious perfidious forsworne ignorant asses I speake not by hearesay I write that I see with these eyes Why doth he coÌ„mit sheepe to wolues why doth he suffer his flocke to be in subiection to most pernitious hypocrites prouiding only for their owne bellies nay why doth hee let boyes wantons rule his lambes I am ashamed to say what manner of Bishops we haue With the reuenues of the poore they feede houndes horses I need not say whores they quaffe they make loue flee all learning as infection Such is the miserie of these times we may not speak that we thinke nor thinke that we speake As for the sheepe committed to their charge to sheere them strip them and kill them as euery man list vnder a pretence of deuotion is now an auncient custome If one witnes be not sufficient you shal haue more those of your not our religion to confesse the same Palingenius an Italian suppliant to the Church of Rome describeth at large the monsterous corruption of your Romane Clergie Sed tua praecipue non intret limina quisquam Frater vel Monachus vel quauis lege sacerdos Hos fuge pestis enim nulla hac immanior Hi sunt Faex hominum fons stultitiae sentina malorum Agnorum sub pelle lupi mercede colentes Non pâ—etate Deum falsa sub imagine recti Decipiunt stolidos ac relligionis in vmbra Mille actus vetitos mille piacula condunt Raptores moechi puerorum corruptores Luxuriae atque gulae famuli celestia vendunt Hos impostores igitur vulpesque dolosas Pelle procul Mystae vafrique cuculli Quos castos decet esse palam cum pellicibus vel Furtim cum pueris matronis virginibusque Nocte dieque subant sunt qui consanguiniarum Inguinibus gaudent ineunt pecudes quoque multi Prô pudor hos tolerare potest ecclesia porcos Duntaxat ventri veneri somnoque vacantes Let no Frier Monke or any Priest come within thy dores Take heede of them no greater mischiefe These are the dregges of men the fountaines of follie the sinckes of sinne wolues vnder lambes skinnes sâ—ruing God for reward not deuotion deceiuing the simple with a false shewe of honestie and vnder the shadow of religion hyding a thousand vnlawfull actes a thousand haynous offences committers of rapes fornicators abusers of boyes slaues of gluttonie and luxurie they sel heauenly things These imposters craftie foxes chase farre from thee The Priests and Monkes that shoulde bee chast spend night and day either openly with whoores or closely with boyes matrones and maydes Some spare neither blood nor beast O shame Can the Church endure such hogs giuen only to feed their bellies satisfie their lusts and take their ease Cornelius one of the bishops that were present at your late councel of Trent in the midst of your assemblie doth acknowlege that to be true which Auentinus and Palingenius before complayned of With what monsters of filthines saith he with what canel of vncleannes with what pestiferous contagion are not both people and priests defiled and corrupted in the holy church of God I make your selues Iudges and beginne at the sanctuarie of God if there were any shamefastnes any chastitie any hope or helpe of honest conuersation left if there were not lust vnbridled and vntamed singular boldnes and incredible wickednes For those two bloodsuckers which alwayes crie bring bring one the mother the other the nource of all euill I meane couetousnes ambition either a secrete and subtile mischiefe poyson plague and monster of the worlde whiles learning and vertue are despised and in their places ignorance vice highly aduanced by those whom we should take for quicke and liuing lawes haue brought to passe that edification is changed to destruction examples to offences custome to corruption regard of lawes to contempt thereof seueritie to slacknes mercie to impunitie pietie to hypocrisie preaching to contention solemne dayes to filthie Marâ—es and that which is most vnhappie the sauour of life to the sauour of death Would god they were not fallen with one consent from religion to superstition from faith to infidelitie from Christ to Antichrist yea from God to Epicurisme saying with their wicked hearts and shamelesse faces there is no God The Turkes proude with the victories and rich with the spoyles that they haue gotten froÌ„ ChristiaÌ„s grew not by their own strength but by our corrupt maners they were not so much enemies as scourges from God their weapons assaulted vs but our sinnes preuailed against vs they shewed their fiercenes we suffred for our iniquities And would God we alone had suffered that the sacred admirable name of Christ Iesu had not bin a iest fable amoÌ„g the faithlesse Iewes and Gentiles by reason of vs whose slouthfulnes wickednes is bruted ouer all the world with a most shamefull report Phi. You neede not reproch vs so bitterly your selues bee not free from all faults Theo. I neuer said we were I know these be the later times when iniquitie shall abound and the charitie of many waxe cold yea when men shall be louers of themselues couetous boasters proud cursed speakers vngratefull vnholy vnkinde vnfaithfull slaunderers intemperate fierce headie high minded preferring their pleasures before God as the holy Ghost foretold vs they should Of this soyle many no doubt on either side yours and ours haue a tast at this day but in vnshamefastnes you passe all others that the wide world crying shame on the manifold corruption of your clergie that Citie you only step forth wtout any blushing to denie that which your nearest friends haue confessed with insoleÌ„t words to promise this land high experimeÌ„ts innumerable examples of vertue deuotion as if that sinke of sin were lately become a fouÌ„taine of grace or the famous whore of BabiloÌ„ newly changed into chast IerusaleÌ„ But you must bee borne with your purpose was to lift extoll Gregorie the 13. aboue the skies thereby to kindle his loue and deuotion towards your Colleges as very zealous for his highnes holines which you could not wel do
not carnal hir delights are not outward in flesh but inward in grace the prophet good mā had no leasure to thinke on your farms demeans reuenues This promise must be common to the faithfull not priuat to your cloisterers which in earthly things plied the bottle so fast that they suckt their nurces dry No remedy you must needs yeeld vs that christiā princes in respect of their office not of their riches haue receiued an expresse commandemēt from God to shew thēselues nurces to his church Now nurces by nature must prouide food for their infants defend them from dāger ergo kings queenes in the new testamēt are boūd to tēder the church of Christ by their princely power publik lawes to defend the same from infection of heresies inuasion of schisms all other apparent corruptions of faith good maners Who saith S. Aug. being in his right wits wil say to christiā kings take you no care who defēdeth or impugneth in your realms the church of christ your master Let it not pertain to you who lift to be religious or sacrilegious within your kingdōs And left he should seem skāt resolued in this opinion he biddeth opē defiāce to the Donatists in these words Cry thus if you dare let murders be punished let adulteries be punished let other degrees of lust sinne be punished only sacrileges that is cōtēpt of God his truth or his church we wil not haue punished by princes lawes And againe Will the Donatists though they were cōuinced of a sacrilegious schisme say that it belongeth not to the princes power to correct or punish such things Is it because such powers do not stretch to corrupt false religiō But christiā emperors persecute the Pagās doth that displease thē The works of the flesh Paul nūbreth these fornicatiō vncleanes strife dissentiō heresie drunkēnes such other What thinke these mē may the crime of idolatry be iustly reuēged by the magistrate wel if that like them not why cōfesse they that witches be rightly punished by the rigor of princes lawes will not agnise that heretikes schismatikes may bee repressed by the same seeing Paul doth rehearse them togither with other fruites of iniquity Will they reply that earthly powers are not to medle with such matters of religion To what end then beareth he the sword which is called Gods minister seruing to punish malefactors Certainly Princes c. If this learned father can not fray you from reuiuing the frantick error of the Donatists against the Princes power in matters of religion I trust you will somwhat reuerence the precept which our Sauior in his Gospell gaue the magistrate when he had the first sort of ghestes to be brought to the great supper the second to be forced Go sayth he forth into the wayes and hedges Compell thē to come in that mine house may be filled Wee take wayes sayth Austen for heresies hedges for schismes because wayes in this place signifie the diuersenes and hedges the peruersenes of opinions House God hath none but his house of prayer neither table beside the Lords table So that this seruant is expressely charged to Compel them from heresies and schismes to the confession of truth consent of prayer and communion of the Lordes table To performe this Christ hath left no seruant but the minister or the magistrat no meanes saue the word or the sword To compell heretiks and schismatiks neither is it possible for the preacher if he would nor lawful if he could he lacketh both meanes and leaue to constraine them His calling is with patience to teach not with violence to force to feede not to stryke to reproue with tongue not to subdue with hand Only the Prince beareth the sword which can and may compell recusants and therefore Bishops since they be flatly forbidden to Rayne must not meddle with the material sword being the chiefest part strength of an earthly kingdom neither ought any to draw the sword but he that holdeth it in Gods stead to reward and reuenge Ergo these wordes Compell them to come in that mine house may be filled were spoken to Christian Princes and are to them both a warrant and a charge to represse schismes and heresies with their Princely power which they receiued from aboue cheefly to maintaine Gods glorie by causing the bands of vnitie to be preserued in the Church and the rules of fayth obserued To the same purpose S. Austen in many places alleageth this parable The Lord himself sayth he willed the ghests first to be brought then to be forced What meaneth he by this Compell them to come when as he sayd of the first bring them If he ment they should be compelled by terror of miracles then might the first sort of ghests which saw many diuine wonders be rather thought to be forced but if by the power which the Church receaued at Gods hand in due time through the religion faith of kings those that are found in high wayes hedges that is in heresies schismes must be compelled to come let them not mislike that they be forced This cōmaunding by Princely power occasioneth many to be saued which though they be violently brought to the feast of the great householder and compelled to come yet being within they find cause to reioyce that they did enter for both sorts of commers as well violently forced as willingly brought the Lord fortold hath fulfilled Therfore let earthly princes serue Christ in making Lawes for Christ wherby mē may be forced to come to the great holy banquet yea by banishments other losses let their subiects begin to weigh with themselues what why they suffer learne to prefer the Scriptures which they read before the reportes and cauils of mē I thinke it superfluous to staie longer in confirming so manifest a truth He that is of God heareth the words of God he that impugneth them quarreleth not with Princes which yet is no small offence but with him by whom Princes raigne whose wisedom may not easily be neglected nor will resisted If you deny that this is the Princes charge to see the law of God fully executed his Sonne rightly serued his spouse safely nourced his house timely filled his enemies duely punished you must counteruaile that which Moses prescribed Dauid required Esay prophesied Paul witnessed Christ commaunded with some better sounder authority than theirs is If you grant so much we wil aske no more the Princes duety to God once cōfessed the rest shal quickly be concluded Phi. In a sense it is true that you say Theo. It is simply true that I say for in your owne iudgement may the Christian faith be freely permitted publikely receiued in kingdoms common wealthes Phi. No doubt Theo. May godly discipline be likewise planted and preserued amongest men and the disturbers and neglecters of it repressed and ordered
Phi. It may Theo. Should corrupt false Religion be displaced banished and the spredders of it dispersed skattered Phi. In any case Theo. Ought malefactors against God as heretikes blasphemers sorcerers idolaters such other transgressours of the first table to be reuenged and punished as well as offenders against men and the breakers of the second table Phi. What else Theo. Can any man freely permit safely defend generally restrayne and externally punish within a realme but onely the Prince Phi. None Theo. Then if these things needfully must and lawfully may bee done for Christ and his Church none can doe them but Magistrates it is euident that the Princes power charge doth stretch vnto thinges causes that bee spirituall as well as temporall Or if S. Austens wordes do better please you that Princes may command that which is good and prohibite that which is euill within their kingdomes not in ciuile affaires onely but in matters also that concerne diuine Religion Phi. Did the Christian Princes in the primatiue Church since the cōming of Christ commaund punish in matters Ecclesiasticall Theo. If their examples do not concur with my former proofes good leaue haue you to beleeue neither if they do take heede you withstand not a manifest truth And here you shal choose whether you will haue a short report or a large rehearsal of their doings Socrates touching them all saith We therefore make mention of Emperors throughout this historie for that since they became Christians Ecclesiastical matters depend on them the greatest Synods haue been and are yet called by their appointment And Alciat a man of your own side Nemim dubiū est quin in primatiua ecclesia de rebus personis ecclesiast c. THERE CAN BE NO DOVBT saith he but in the primatiue Church Emperors had the iurisdiction that is the ruling and gouerning of persons and causes Ecclesiasticall Ius dicere referred to Princes is not to decide matters in question by law for so did Iudges not Princes but to make lawes and betweene lawmakers gouernors you can find litle difference for by publike lawes commāding good punishing euil princes do chiefly gouerne Then if christian Monarks in the primatiue church guided ecclesiastical matters persons by their imperiall lawes as this learned famous lawier putteth vs out of doubt they did you must shew when how they forfeited this power If it were thē lawful vsual how can it be now strange vsurped If there be no doubt of this with what cōscience do you not doubt but deny this Perhaps you disdaine the witnesse Alciat in euery respect was well learned in his faculty which was law deserueth more credit than the best of you yet least I should seeme to presse you with names not with proofes let vs view the proceedings of some Christiā Emperors and iudge you whether they be not both ancient and euident What power Constantine claimed vsed in causes ecclesiasticall the foure books of Eusebius other church stories describing the lawes letters acts of Cōstantine beare witnes sufficient First he gaue the christiās free liberty to professe their religion built them places of praier at his own charges entreated their bishops with all possible fauor honor Next he prohibited the gentiles their ancient vsual idolatries diuinatiōs oracles images sacrifices Heretiks he debarred not only churches secret conuents but excluded them also from the priuileges which him-selfe had prouided for Catholike persons If Constantines example deserue to be praised followed which no man except he be void of common sense wil gainsay then may christian Princes in the right of their scepter sword I meane their publike vocation charge without seeking any farther warrāt from Rome forbid wicked and idolatrous superstition admit and assist to the best of their power the preaching of the trueth sequester heretikes from the dignities and liberties graunted to good and religious subiectes for so did Constantine whose godly vertues and happie paines all nations then imbraced all ages since confessed all Princes now should imitate Besides this he did many thinges both for spredding the faith guiding the church of Christ worthy great cōmendation By my ministery saith this good Emperor mākind is brought to the keeping obseruing of the most sacred law by the seruice which I perform to God al things euery where directly speaking of things ecclesiasticall are setled in order yea the barbarous nations which til this time knew not the truth now praise the name of God sincerely whom they reuerēce for dread of vs. Towards the church of Christ he shewed an excellēt special care calling coūcels of bishops when any dissention sprang as a common bishop ouerseer appointed by God not disdaining to be present confer with them the rather to keep thē al in christian peace For his maner was in their synods not to sit idle but to marke aduisedly what euery man said to help their either side disputing to tēper such as kindled too fast to reason mildly with ech part vndertake iointly with thē to search out the truth confirming their decrees with his seal least other tēporal iudges rulers should infringe them When occasiō serued him not to gather a coūcel he did by writing aduertise the parties dissenting of his opiniō iudgemēt interposing himself as an arbiter in their cōtrouersies somtimes Prescribing the bishops what was profitable for the church of God somtimes the people to which end he wrot many letters emitting neither rebukes nor threats whē need so required Whē the coūcel of Tyrus was gathered by his edict he cōmāded thē first to discusse the truth of such crimes as were pretēded against Athan. who was loth to come before thē saue that he feared the thretning letters of Const. writtē to this effect If any which I think not in contēpt of our mādate fail to come before you we wil send a warrāt frō our roial autority that he shal be banished to teach him what it is for bishops clerks to withstād the precept of the chief ruler defending the truth Athan. the bishops of his part appeared but finding the coūcel very partial protested against thē appealed frō thē in these words Because we see many things spitefully cōtriued against vs much wrōg offred the catholik church vnder our names we be forced to request that the debating of our maters may be kept for the princes most excellēt person we can not bear the drifts iniuries of our enimies therfore require the cause to be referred to the most religious deuout emperor before whō we shal be sufferd to stād in our own defēces plead the right of the church Yet to preuēt the worst Athan. himself fled to Constant. beseeching him to send for the bishops examine their acts
endure for Simonie non residence wrongfull excommunication playing at tables resorting to spectacles ordering any Clerke without diligent examination or contrarie to the Princes ecclesiastical lawes in which cases Iustinian commandeth them to bee SVSPENDED EXCOMMVNICATED DEPOSED as the fault meriteth and his edict appointeth It was then no newes for a Prince to say Diuers complaints haue beene brought vs against Clerks Monks and many Bishops that some leade not their liues according to the sacred Canons others can not the publike praiers which should be sayd at the sacred oblation and baptisme we therefore recounting the iudgement of God with our selues HAVE COMMAVNDED THAT IN EVERY MATTER THVS DETECTED LAWFVLL INQVISITION AND CORRECTION PROCEEDE comprising in this edict those things that were before skattered in sundry constitutions touching the most religious Bishops Clerkes and Monkes with such punishments added as wee rhought expedient And againe OVR CHIEFEST CARE IS FOR THE TRVETH OF GODS DOCTRINE AND SEEMELY CONVERSATION OF THE CLERGIE THE THINGS THEN WHICH WE HAVE DECREED AND MAKE FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE SACRED ORDER AND STATE CONSONANT TO THE TENOR OF HOLY RVLES LET THE MOST GODLY PATRIARKES OF EVERY DIOCESSE THE METROPOLITANES AND RIGHT REVEREND BISHOPS AND CLERKES KEEPE FOR EVER HEREAFTER INVYOLABLE THE BREAKER OF THEM SHALBE SVRE TO BE SEQVESTRED VTTERLY FROM GOD AND EXCLVDED FROM HIS PRIESTLY FVNCTION Licencing all men of what sort or calling soeuer they bee that perceiue the least point of these our Lawes transgressed to denounce and infourme the same to our highnes that wee which following the sacred rules and Apostolike tradition haue commaunded these thinges may reuenge such offendours as they well deserue Farther hee sayth Our purpose in this present Lawe is next after those matters which wee haue disposed of the most holy Bishoppes and reuerend Clerkes to set a good order in monasticall discipline for so much as there is no kinde of thing exempted from the Princes inquisition which hath receiued from God a common regiment and soueraintie ouer all men and these things which concerne God must bee preserued from corruption by the sacred Prelates and ciuill Magistrates but most of all by our Maiestie which vse not to neglect any diuine causes but labour by all meanes that our common wealth by the fauour of the great God and our Sauiour Christ towardes men may reape the fruite of that purenes and integritie which Clerkes Monkes and Bishoppes from the highest to the lowest shall shewe foorth in keeping the sacred Canons our lawes prouided in that behalfe which constitutions by this our decree wee strengthen a fresh and ratifie Put on your spectakles and see whether Iustinian do not take vppon him to gouerne the doctrine and discipline of the Church the conuersation of Clerkes Monkes and Priestes and to commaunde Prelates and Patriarkes in the celebration of sacraments conuocation of Synodes election and confirmation of Bishoppes ordering of Clerkes and such like functions except our eyesight fayle vs wholy spirituall and in the iudgement of your neerest friends acknowledged for causes ecclesiasticall I will omitte what Iustinian enacted touching mariages diuorces legacies funerals incests adulteries and such like then pertinent to the Princes power and sworde nowe claymed by your holy father for a surplussage to causes ecclesiasticall and with that seely shift conueyed out of Princes handes who first vppon fauour and opinion of holynes and wisedome in Bishoppes gaue them leaue to meddle with such matters I will omitte I say that and descende to the Lawes of Charles the great Emperour of the West partes eight hundreth yeeres after Christ which Ansegisus gathered together within thirteene yeeres of the death of the sayde Charles In his preface of those Lawes thus speaketh that wise Prince Considering the passing goodnes of Christ our Lord towardes vs and our people and howe needefull it is not onely to giue thankes to God incessantly with heart and mouth but also with good endeuours continually to set foorth his honour and praise c. Therefore O you Pastours of Christes Church and teachers of his flocke Haue wee directed Commissioners vnto you that shall ioyne with you to redresse those thinges which neede reformation in our name and by vertue of our authoritie and to this ende wee haue here annexed certaine briefe chapters of Canonicall or ecclesiasticall institutions such as we thought meetest Let no man iudge this our admonition to godlines to bee presumptuous Whereby wee seeke to correct thinges amisse to cutte off superfluities and leade men to that which is right but rather receiue it with a charitable mynde For in the booke of kinges wee reade what paynes godly Iosias tooke to bring the kingdome giuen him of GOD to the true worship of the same God by visiting correcting and instructing them not that wee compare our selues with his sanctitie but that we should alwayes imitate such examples of the godly We see the reason why these Lawes were published and commissioners sent from the Prince to put them in execution now let vs examine the Lawes themselues and marke what causes they chiefely concerne Peruse the booke you will on my woord expect no farther proofe that Princes had then to doe with persons and causes ecclesiasticall If your leasure serue you not by these fewe which I will report you may coniecture the rest The first seuen and fiftie Canons are borowed out of such generall and prouinciall Councels as Charles best liked for example That no man excommunicated in one place shall bee taken to the communion in an other place That when any Clerk is ordered his faith and life bee first exactly tried That no strange Clerke bee receaued or ordered without letters of commendation and licence from his owne Bishop That no seruant bee made Clerk or Moncke without his masters consent That no man bee made Priest vnder thirtie yeares of age neither then at randon but appointed and fastned to a certaine cure That no Bishop meddle with giuing orders in an other mans diocesse That no Bishop veele any widoes at all nor maydens vnder the age of twentie and fiue That the Bishop of each Prouince and the Metropolitane meete yerely twise in Councel for causes of the Church That Priests when they say their masses shall also communicate That only the bookes canonical shall bee read in the Church That the false names of Martyres and vncertaine memories of Sainctes bee not obserued That Sunday bee kept from euening on Saturday till euening the next day with other such constitutions prescribing a direct order to Bishoppes Priestes and Monkes for ecclesiasticall causes Phi. These bee Canons of former Councels Theo. True but selected and deliuered by Charles to those visitours which he sent with his authoritie to refourme the Church and the rest that followe to the number of an hundred and fiue chapters did Charles frame by conference with learned and godly men at
betweene two Metropolitanes and that the confirming of Bishops be not long differed neither any Bishop remoue from his diocesse without the decree of other Bishops That no lay man presume to place or displace Clerks but by the Bishops Consent That excommunications be not ouer rife and for trifeling causes That euery Church haue a Priest as soone as the Bishop can prouide Item the Bishop shal looke that the Church of God haue due honor no secular busines nor vaine iangling shal be suffered in the Church because the howse of God is the howse of praier but that al men haue their mindes attentiuely bent to God when they come to masse and not depart before the Priest haue ended his blessing Because Canonicall profession partly for ignorance partly for sloth was very much defaced we tooke paines at our sacred session to gather as it were certaine sweet flowers out of the monuments of blessed writers and proportion a rule both for women and men of Canonicall conuersation which the whole assemblie so well liked of that they thought it worthie to bee kept without alteration and therefore wee decree that all of that sort hold it without failing and in any case hereafter obserue the same How we haue disposed touching Monckes and giuen them leaue to chose an Abbat of themselues and ordered their purpose of life wee haue caused to be drawen in an other schedule and confirmed it that it might stand good and inuiolable with the Princes our successors Prouided always that laymen be neither ouerseers of Moncks nor Archdeacons We heare say that certaine Abbesses against the manner of the Church of God giue blessing with laieng their hands and making the signe of the Crosse on the heads of men Know you sacred fathers that this must be vtterly forbidden in your diocesse Wee haue a precept in Deuteronomie No man shall consult a southsaier obserue dreames or respect diuinations there shal bee no sorcerer no inchaunter no coniurer Therefore wee commaund that none calculate practise charmes or take vppon them to Prophesie what weather shall come but wheresoeuer such bee founde either to bee refourmed or condemned Likewise for trees rockes springs where some fooles make their obseruations wee giue straite charge that this wicked vse detected of GOD be banished euerie where and destroyed Of mariage your demaund whether a man may take to wife a mayde that is espoused to an other In any case we forbid it because that blessing which the Priest giueth her that is betrothed is to the faithful in manner of a sacrilege if it any way be violated THAT our visitours looke diligently in euery Citie Monasterie and Nunrie howe the buildinges and ornaments of the Church bee kept and make diligent inquirie for the conuersation of all persons there and howe that which wee commaunded is refourmed in their reading singing and other disciplines pertayning to the rules of eccelsiasticall order Certaine Chapters as of incestuous mariages Churches that lacke their right honour or haue beene lately spoyled and if there bee any other ecclesiasticall or common wealth matters worthie to bee redressed which for shortnes of tyme wee coulde not nowe finish wee thinke good to differre them vntill by Gods helpe and the aduise of our faythfull Counsellers oportunitie serue vs to determine the same There bee sixe score chapters besides these recorded by the same writer of the lawes that Charles made touching ecclesiasticall Persons and causes which I for breuitie sake omitte leauing you to consider of them when you see your time Charles by these publike lawes appointed what doctrine should be preached what abuses in the Lords supper amended what parts of diuine seruice pronounced by the Priest and people together with one voyce what bookes should bee read in the Church what holy dayes obserued what memories of Saints abolished what woorkes on Sonday prohibited hee prescribed the Bishops their dueties the Priestes their charge the Monkes their rules hee directed thee keeping of Synodes electing and translating of Bishoppes ordering and placing of Clerkes paying and employing of Tythes decided what shoulde become of their mariages that were taken away by force or affianced before to others forbad the burying of dead corses in the Church banished Sorcerie Simonie Usurie Periurie last of all vndertooke that if any thing were wanting which needed reformation in causes ecclesiasticall it shoulde bee supplyed of him at his leasure If Charles had the regiment of monasticall profession episcopall iurisdiction canonicall conuersation if hee did I say medle with redressing errors in fayth abuses in sacramentes disorders in diuine seruice superstition in funerals othes charmes and such other matters as by the purport of these chapters it is euident he did what causes can you deuise more spirituall than these Will you permitte these thinges of most importance to the Princes power and except other of lesse moment That were notorious follie You must either inuest them with all or exclude them first from the weightiest For if they be gouernours of the greatest ecclesiasticall affayres much more doth their authoritie stretch to the smalest Againe these Lawes of Charles which amount to the number of eight skore and three what do they lacke of a full direction for all matters needing reformation in the Church of God Any thing or nothing If nothing then this prince gouerned ordered al ecclesiasticall causes If any thing that Charles him selfe assureth vs he would determine when occasion serued Choose whether you wil Charles either way shewed the lawful power of Princes to direct establish all thinges requisite to the faith and Church of Christ. For what hee promised aduisedly to doe no doubt hee ment it shoulde and thought it might bee iustly perfourmed So did Ludouike his sonne and Lotharius his nephew the next Emperours after him whose proceedings declare what account they made of these chapters and with what diligence they put them in executiō The monuments of so good Princes I may not ouerslip with silence their deeds did then profit the Church of God their wordes will nowe profite vs. Thus did Ludouike and Lotharius his sonne write to the Bishoppes and magistrates of their Empire You haue all I doubt not either seene or heard that our father and our progenitors after they were chosen by God to this place MADE THIS THEIR PRINCIPAL STVDIE howe the honour of Gods holy Church and the state of their kingdome might bee decently kept and wee for our part following their example since it hath pleased God to appoint vs that we should haue the care of his holy church and this Realme are very desirous so long as wee liue to labour earnestly for three speciall points I meane to defende exalt and honour Gods holy Church and his ministers in such sort as is fit to preserue peace and do iustice among the people AND THOVGH THE CHIEFE OF THIS MINISTERIE CONSIST IN OVR PERSON
whiles he could not so much as looke into the contention betwixt the Christians and the Arrians did the Church no good For though Valentinian were for his owne person well perswaded in religion yet he suffered the Arrians to do what they would as Sozome confesseth Valentinian being himselfe of the Nicene faith made much of those that were of the same opinion with him but molested not any that were of the contrarie And that note Socrates giueth him Valentinian honoured those that were of his faith but in the meane time he let the Arrians do what they would And though himself very religiously embraced the Godhead of Christ yet would he commaund nothing to the Bishops in that behalfe neither thought hee good to change other ecclesiastical lawes into better or worse For he took them to be aboue his reache though he were otherwise a very good Emperour and fitte to rule as appeared by his doings Phi. Mislike you this in Valentinian Theo. Doe you like that he suffered Arrians to haue their foorth neither molested nor resisted them Phi. We like not that Theo. Then you mislike the timerousnes or remissenes call it what you will in the church affaires as well as we doe for what commendation could it be for him neither to meddle nor make with ecclesiasticall matters but to permit all sortes and sects to follow their appetites Phi. The stories commend him as excelling in wisedome moderation and iustice Theo. The best men haue their faults and are somtimes led with priuate fansies Valentinian was a good man and worthie the Empire and yet he made a Law that euery man that would might haue two wiues and himselfe gaue the first example in taking two Phi. What he did not Theo. Meaning to Marrie Iustina for report of her bewtie he made a law and published the same in euerie citie that it should be lawful for al men to haue two wiues at once And after the law so made he tooke Iustina to wife by whom hee had Valentinian the yonger and three daughters not diuorcing Seuera the mother of Gratiaen his elder sonne whom hee a little before had created Emperour Phi. That was a fault in deede Theo. And this was an other that hee gaue himselfe to quietnes and molested no sect of heretikes vpon this opinion that it passed his capasitie to iudge betweene the Bishops in matters of faith Phi. But Ambrose doth commend it Theo. Ambrose doth alleage it to stay the yong prince froÌ„ rashly presuming to iudge of their matters before he knew the first principles of religion because his father when he was aged Inhabilem se ponderi tanti putabat esse iudicij thought himself vnable to iudge in so weightie a cause but farther he doth not commend it and yet he might commend that in Valentinian and not hurt vs. For wee doe not encourage Princes to professe themselues iudges of fayth which Valentinian thought too great a burden but onely wee wish them to discerne betwixt trueth and error which euery priuate man must do that will be a Christian. And though Valentinian distrusted his owne iudgement in matters of faith yet that did not fray Theodosius a Prince highly commended by Ambrose him self from looking into the strife betweene the Homousians and Arrians and appointing by a solemne edict which of them should be counted Catholikes which heretikes and taking their Churches from them without their consents For hee not long after hee was called to the Empire by Valentinians eldest sonne willed euery sect to put their fayth in writing At the day prefixed the Bishoppes of euery religion being sent for came to the Court Nectarius and Agelius for the Homousians or Catholikes Demophilus â—or the Arrians Eunomius himselfe for his followers and for the Macedonians Eleusius When they were come the Prince admitted them to his presence and taking the Paper of eche mans opinion hartily besought God to helpe him in choosing the trueth Then reading their confessions written hee reiected al the rest as diuiding and seuering the sacred Trinitie and tare them in peeces and onely liked and embraced the Homousian fayth and therewithall made a Lawe that such as followed that fayth should bee counted Christian Catholikes the rest infamous heretikes All people subiect to our Empire wee will haue continue in that religion which S. Peter the Apostle deliuered to the Romanes as the fayth kept from his tyme to this day doth declare and the which it is euident Bishop Damasus and Peter Bishop of Alexandria a man of Apostolike sanctitie doe professe to witte that according to the Apostolike and Euangelike Doctrine wee beleeue one Godhead of the father sonne and holy Ghost of like Maiestie in sacred Trinitie The obseruers of this Lawe wee commaund to bee taken for Christian Catholikes the rest as mad and frantike we adiudge to beare the reproch of heretikes which must looke to feele first the vengeance of God next such penalties as the motion of our heart directed from aboue shall appoint As this religious Prince published by his Lawes which opinion should be counted trueth and which heresie so did hee by the same authoritie commaund the Churches throughout his Empire to bee presently taken from the Arrians and deliuered into the handes and possession of such as were of a right fayth So sayth Sozomene The Emperour Theodosius made a Law that the Nicene fayth shoulde bee authentike and all Churches to bee deliuered to them which professed the same Godhead of the father sonne and holy Ghost in three persons of equall honour and like power The Lawe it selfe is extant The rule of the Nicene faith receiued from our fathers and confirmed by the witnes and assertion of diuine religion let it stand good for euer And he shall bee counted a follower of the Nicene fayth and a true professor of the Catholike religion that holdeth the vndiuided substance of the incorrupt Trinitie which by a Greeke worde is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of right beleeuers They which bee not of this faith let them cease by cunning deuises to shroud theÌ„ selues vnder the name of true religion which they professe not be plainely noted by their heresies and vtterly remoued and expelled from all Churches that throughout the worlde the Churches may bee deliuered to the Bishops which hold the Nicene fayth So Gratian the sonne of Valentinian after the Empire came entirely to his hands commanded the preachers of the Arrian blasphemie as wild and cruel beasts to be driuen from their Churches and the same to be restored to good Pastors the executioÌ„ of this law he coÌ„mitted to Sapores a most famous captaine of that time The like did Theodosius the yonger decree that they which followed the wicked faith of Nestorius or cleaued to his vnlawfull doctrin if they were Bishops or Clerks should be cast out of their churches if they were Laymen they should bee accursed By this it is
not admit which they said against others Hee euer doth that which the Arrians woulde haue and they againe saie that which hee liketh And whereas the Bishops in those dayes were wont to be lawfully chosen by the people of the place and sufficiently examined and allowed by other Bishops adioyning and openly created in the church Constantius in steede of the church would haue his palace succeed and for the multitude of people and right of assemblies to elect hee commaunded three Eunuches to bee present and three of his spies or prolers for you can not call them Bishops that they sixe in his palace might create one Felix a Bishop And noting what manner of Bishops the Emperour and his Eunuches made hee saith In illorum locum iuuenes libidinosos Ethnicos ne catechismo quidem imbutos necnon digamos de maximis criminibus malè audientes modò aurum darent veluti emptores è foro ad Episcopatus summisere They sent in their places that were banished yong men leacherous persons Ethnickes not so much as taught the first principles of faith hauing two wifes and spotted with enormous crimes so they would giue mony as cheepe-men out of a market The furious violence that was vsed in the time of Constantius to driue men to participate with Arrians not onely by imprisonmentes and banishmentes but by chaining whipping scalding with fire trampling vnder feete stoning choking and secret murdering such as refused without all respect of vocation age or sexe was so lamentable that no christian hart can read it without teares and it is so largely described and pithily disproued by Hilarie and Athanasius that no man except he be blinder than a bitle can doubt whether Constantius were a wilfull tyrant in the church of God or no. Peruse the places and you shall find proofes enough of that which I say I proclaime saith Hilarie that to thee Constantius which I woulde to Nero Decius and Maximinian thou fightest against God thou ragest against the Church thou doest persecute the Sainctes thou hatest the Preachers of Christ and ouerthrowest Religion a tyrant not in humane but in diuine thinges a newe kinde of enemie to Christ the forerunner of Antichrist I repeate nothing rather than thy doings in the Church because I would open no other tyrannie but that which thou vsest against God And Athanasius shewing the reasons why hee calleth Constantius Antichrist Who seeing or hearing saith he these thinges who considering the rage of these wicked ones and so great iniustice would not deepelie sigh at it Who hereafter will dare to call Constantius a Christian and not rather the image of Antichrist For which of Antichristes markes doth hee lacke Or what cause is there why Constantius should not in euerie respect bee counted Antichrist Haue not the Arrians and Ethnickes as it were by his precept vsed their sacrifices and blasphemies against Christ in the great church at Caesarium in Aegypt As a Giant he exalteth himselfe against the most high and hath inuented waies to change the◠Lawe of God breaking the ordinances of Christ and his Apostles and inuerting the customes of the church And since he is cloathed with Christianitie and entereth into holy places there standing and wasting the churches Abrogating the Canons and by force compelling that his pleasure may preuaile who at any time will affirme that these dayes are peaceable to christians and not rather that this is a persecution and such a persecution as was neuer before and no man after shall make the like except that sonne of perdition which is the true Antichrist Howe thinke you did not these Fathers reproue Constantius for changeing the faith oppressing Synods corrupting iudgementes infringing the Canons barbarons enforcing the christians and shortly for subiecting all to his will and violence Phi. I knowe they make mention of these things but yet they reproue him generally for intermedling with Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. I hope they reproued him for that he did Phi. The case is cleare they coulde not reproue him for that hee did not Theo. These things which I last rehearsed Constantius did as I proue by their witnesse that chiefly rebuked him ergo Constantius was reproued of Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius for these thinges that is for playing the tyrant in diuine matters or as you call them in causes Ecclesiasticall Phi. But Osius saith Medle not O Emperour in causes Ecclesiastical nor do thou commaund vs in that kind but leaue such things to vs rather Theo. You were answered before but that you wil neuer be satisfied Osius dissuadeth Constantius from vsing his absolute power obstinate wil in those things that were then in question betwixt the Christians Arians He saw the manifolde and excessiue disorders of Constantius in forcing Synodes of Bishops by terror and violence to bow at his becke in making his palace a consistorie for their causes and there iudging what his Eunuches would in dissoluing the ordinances of Christ and his Apostles and doing all thinges against the Rules of the church and therefore had good cause to saie Ne te misceas ecclesiasticis neque nobis in hoc genere praecipe sed potius ea a nobis disce Enterpose not thy selfe as thou doest O Emperour in Ecclesiasticall matters neither commaund vs in this kinde but learne such things rather of vs and not as you say leaue such things rather to vs. God hath cōmitted the Empire to thee to vs the things of the church as he that enuieth thine Empire contradicteth the ordinance of God so take thou heede least drawing vnto thy selfe the things of the church thou be guilty of great sinne It is written Giue vnto Caesar that which is Caesars vnto God that which is Gods It is therefore neither lawfull for vs to holde a kingdome on earth neither hast thou power O Prince ouer sacrifices sacred things These words put a difference between the function of Priestes Princes shew that neither may intrude with ech others charge which we confesse with a good wil. But as Priestes must teach truth and conuict error that is their office so princes must commaund for truth and punish error because publike authoritie to commaund and punish is not the Priestes but the Princes right where-with Priestes must not meddle Phi. Yet the Prince must learne at the Priestes hande which is truth and which error Theo. If the Priest teach truth and the Prince reiect it the Prince shal answere to God for the cōtempt of truth but if the priest teach error in steed of truth a godly prince hath lawful power to banish the doctrine punish the teacher Phi. And if the Prince saie that truth is error error is truth shall truth be banished and the Priest punished vpon the Princes saying Theo. And what if the Priest saie that light is darkenesse and darkenesse light shall Princes be excused before God for
the time long the Princes wise the factes knowen the Church of Christ honoured and obeyed those decrees It is no doubtfull question but a manifest trueth that the best Princes before Christ and after Christ for many yeares medled with the reformation of the Church and prescribed lawes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall S. Augustine accompteth them not vsurpers as you doe but happie Princes that imployed their authoritie to delate and spreade the true worshippe of God as much as they coulde and auoucheth plainely that God him-selfe speaketh and commaundeth by the mouthes and heartes of Princes when they commaunde in matters of Religion that which is good and whosoeuer resisteth their Ecclesiasticall Lawes made for trueth shall bee grieuouslie plagued at Gods handes Imperatores felices dicimus si suam potestatem ad DEI cultum maximè dilatandum maiestatis eius famulam faciunt Wee count Princes blessed if they bende their power to doe God seruice for the spreading of his true worshippe as much as they can Hoc iubent imperatores quod iubet Christus quia cum bonum iubent per illos non iubet nisi Christus Emperours commaunde the selfe-same that Christ doeth because when they commaunde that which is good it is Christ him-selfe that commaundeth by them And â— little after Attendite qua manifestissima veritate per cor regis quod in manu Dei est ipse Deus dixerat inista ipsa lege quam contra vos prolatam dicitis Marke yee with howe manifest trueth by the Kinges heart which is in Gods hande GOD himselfe spake in that verie Lawe which you saie was made against you And therefore hee concludeth Quicunque legibus Impâ—ratorum quae pro Dei veritate feruntur obtemporare non vult grande acquirit supplicium Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Princes which are made for the truth of God is sure to beare an heauie iudgement The Princes themselues will teach you that by their power they may by their charge they should medle with matters Ecclesiasticall The authority of our lawes saith Iustinian disposeth diuine and humane thinges Thence is it that we take greatest care for the true religion of God and honest conuersation of Priestes So likewise Theodosius and Valentinian Ea quae circa Catholicam fidem vel ordinauit antiquit as vel parentum nostrorum authoritas religiosa constituit vel nostra Serenitas roborauit nouella superstitione remota integra inuiolata custodire praecipimus Those thinges which ancient Princes haue ordained or the religious authoritie of our Progenitours decreed or our highnesse established concerning the catholike faith wee commaund you to keepe them firme and inuiolable all latter superstition remoued And this they recken to be the first part of their Princely charge Inter caeteras sollicitudines quas amor publicus peruigili nobis cogitatione indixit praecipuam Imperatoriae maiestatis curam esse praecipimus verae religionis indaginem Among the rest of those dueties which the common-wealth exacteth at our handes we perceiue the inquirie of true religion should be the chiefest care of our Princely calling Valentinian the elder though at first hee refused to deale with profound questions of religion yet after hee was content to enterpose his authoritie with others and to commaund that the faith of the Trinitie should be rightly preached the Sacrament of Baptisme by no meanes doubled The blessed Bishops saith he with Valens Gratian haue made demonstration that the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost be a Trinitie coessentiall nostra potentia eandem praedicari mandauit and our power hath commaunded the same truth to be preached And againe The bishop which shall reiterate holy Baptisme we count vnworthy of his place For wee condemne their error which treading the Apostolike preceptes vnder their feete doe not clense but rather defile those with a second washing that are once alreadie baptized Zeno seeking to reconcile the Bishops Clerkes Monkes and people of Egypt and Alexandria to the Nicene faith beginneth with these wordes For so much as wee know that onely faith which is right and syncere to bee the grounde staie strength and inuincible defence of our Empire wee haue alwaies emploied our desires endeuours and lawes that thereby wee might multiplie the holie Catholike and Apostolike church the perpetuall and vndefiled mother of our Scepter And Iustinus nephewe to Iustinian writing a publike Edict to all Christians concerning manie pointes of true Religion maketh his conclusion with these wordes Omnes eos qui contraria hijsce vel sentiunt vel sensuri sunt Anathemate damnamus alienos à sancta Dei Catholica Apostolica Ecclesia iudicamus Wee condemne them all as accursed that presentlie doe or hereafter shall thinke contrarie to these things we adiudge to haue no part in the holy Catholike and Apostolike Church of God This care to prouide and power to commaund for matters of religioÌ„ Princes as well in this realme as els where continued a thousand yeres after Christ. The Bishop of Rome himselfe 850 yeres after Christ promiseth all kind of obedience to the chapters and lawes ecclesiasticall of Lotharius his ancestours In Greece the Emperours lost not their authoritie to call Councels and establish trueth till they lost Empire and all More than thirtine hundred yeres after Christ Nicephorus highly commendeth a Greeke Emperour for his labors and endeuours in the Church affaires You haue saith he to the Prince restored the Catholike and vniuersal Church to her auncient state that was troubled with nouelties impure and vnsound doctrine you haue banished from her you haue purged the temple from heretikes that were corrupters and deprauers of heauenly doctrine not so much with a three corded whippe as with the worde of trueth You haue established the faith and made constitutions for it you haue walled about true godlines with mightie defences you haue repaired that which was ruinous Priestly vnction decaied you haue made purer than gold and by lawes and letters taught them sobriety of life and contempt of mony Wherefore their order is now sacred in the common wealth which in former times was degenerated infected with corruption of discipline and manners Yea when you sawe our true religion brought in danger by false and absurd doctrines you did most zealously and most wisely vndertake the defence of it And knowing very well that piety of it selfe the diligent care of Gods causes are the surest proppes of an Empire you tooke a diuine and passing wise course For by medling with these matters of religion you wanne great thankes of God and gaue him iust cause to bee fauorable to your praiers to direct al your doings and confirme and setle the Empire in your hands Canutus a King of this land not full 32 yeres before the conquest apparently proueth that Princes kept their authoritie to commaund for matters of religion more than a
How els should we cal her Phi. Not Gouernour but Prince or ruler For Bishops be Gouernours in their kind as well as Princes Theo. As though these words were not subiect to the same cauils with the former Bishops be Princes and Rulers in their kind as well as gouernours Your selues proue them to be rulers by S. Paul Obey your Rulers and againe The holy Ghost hath set you to rule the Church And where you say Rulers in S. Paul S. Hierom saith Parete Principibus vestris Obey you Princes And elswhere A Bishop must be irreproueable or he shall be no Prince of the Church Yea Gregorie doubteth not to call them Kings The holy preachers of the Church saith he be Kings And S. Hierom ventereth to call them Queenes The Kings and Queenes that nource the Church be plainly the Apostles and Apostolike men So that if we were disposed to play with wordes as you be we coulde driue you to seeke newe names not only for Kings Princes but also for Priests and Bishops S. Iohn saith of himselfe and of al the faithfull Christ hath made vs Kings and Priests vnto god his father and S. Peter confirmeth the same You are a Roiall Priesthood Eusebius writeth of Constantine that He called the seruants of God to Synods as a coÌ„mon Bishop appointed by God and sate among them and made himselfe partaker of their consultations and that in his hearing the Prince Named himselfe a Bishop with these wordes You are Bishops of things within the Church I am appointed by God a Bishop of those things that are without the Church And this he might well doe For 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Bishoppe is in Greeke nothing else but an ouerseer or a superintendent which woord Hierom vseth and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whence our English woorde Priest seemeth to be deriued he sayth is nomen aetatis a name of age and signifieth an Elder and nothing in the Scriptures more common than to call Princes and rulers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Elders as the seuentie Elders all the tribes of Israel and their Elders Princes and iudges the Princes and Elders of Sucoth the Elders of Bethulia and infinite other places where the woord 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is vsed of the Septuagint Phi. We know you may confound all things if you list to dally with equiuocatioÌ„s but S. Paul hath expresly prohibited al good teachers strife of words Theo. You say well and since al your absurdities haue none other ground but the carping at our words or rather the manifest abusing and perâ—erting of the same what are your labours to requite you with Saint Paul but vaine brables of men corrupted in mind and depriued of trueth If the word gouernour were common to Bishops with Princes as you would haue it yet are their offices and regiments many wayes distinguished The gouernment of Princes is publike of Bishops is priuate of Princes is compulsiue of Bishops is persuasiue of Princes is Lordly with Rule of Bishops is brotherly with seruice of Princes is externall and ordereth the actions of the bodie of Bishops is internall and guideth the motions of the mind to bee short Princes haue the sworde with lawfull authoritie from GOD in his name to commaunde and prohibite rewarde and reuenge that which hee prescribeth and appointeth Bishoppes haue the woorde and Sacramentes committed to their charge with fidelitie and sinceritie to diuide and dispence the same in his Church according to his will And therefore though Bishoppes may bee called Gouernours in respect of the soule yet onely Princes bee Gouernours of Realmes Pastours haue flockes and Bishoppes haue Diocesses Realmes Dominions and Countries none haue but Princes and Magistrates and so the stile Gouernour of this Realme belongeth onely to the Prince and not to the Priest and importeth a publike and Princely regiment with the sworde which no Bishoppe by Gods Lawe may claime or vse Phi. Wee coulde graunt you with a good will that the Prince is the only Gouernour of this Realm but you adde as well in all spirituall or ecclesiasticall things or causes as temporall which is most absurde and direct against your owne distinction For if the Prince be the only Gouernour of all spirituall things and causes Ergo Bishops bee no Gouernours of the word nor Sacramentes rites nor ceremonies praiers nor preachings of the Church but all must bee as please the Prince and so you fall into that shameful error againe from the which you seeke to cleare your selues Theo. Is it for weakenes of witte that you cannot or for rustines of hart that you will not see the defect of your argument Phi. The reason to my thinking is very sure For if only Princes be Gouernours in those cases Ergo not Priests Theo. A childish sophisme Your antecedent hath a special acception of the word Gouernour and your conclusion a generall Princes only bee Gouernours in things and causes ecclesiastical that is with the sword For so their vocation inferreth and your assertion witnesseth and so must you limite your antecedent before it will be good or agreeable to the Doctrine which wee teach oth which we take Then if you conclude Ergo Bishops be no gouernors in those things with the sword your illation is sound and sufficient for in all things and causes ecclesiasticall and spirituall Princes beare the sworde and not Bishops But if you inferre Ergo Bishops bee no Gouernours in those things meaning thereby no dispencers guiders nor directors of those things your conclusion is larger than your antecedent which neuer maketh good consequent Phi. I see your meaning you will haue Princes only to be Gouernours of their Realmes dominions that is to beare the sworde within their Realmes and dominions in all thinges as well spirituall as temporall Theo. You see what wee say peruert it no more but confute it if you can Phi. That Princes and none els shoulde beare the sworde within their Dominions I meane not to confute I confesse it as well as you But what hath the temporall sword to do with ecclesiasticall thinges and causes Princes should meddle with common wealth matters and not busie themselues with Church causes Theo. Runne you backe againe to this issue that Princes may not meddle with causes ecclesiasticall Haue you forgotten how largely that is prooued before and sealed with your owne consent as irreuocable Phi. Meddle they may with some spirituall thinges and causes but when and as they shall bee required by the Priest Theo. Wee are not at this present to heare what you can imagine but to see what you can impugne in our othe as absurd And thus farre you agree with vs that Princes bee the onely Gouernours of their Realmes and dominions taking Gouernours for Magistrates which beare the sworde in Gods behalfe with publike power to compell or punish Phi. And what of this Theo. Thus much that if onely Princes beare the sworde and no man else by
Gods appointment ergo they beare it in all thinges where the sworde must or may be vsed as well spirituall as temporall Phi. No doubt where the sword must or may bee borne they beare it but howe proue you that in spirituall thinges and causes the temporal sword must or may bee vsed Theo. Pitch that for the question and trie how wel you shall speede with it Phi. Wee neuer denyed but in some sort the temporall sword might bee vsed for spirituall thinges and causes as namely to defend the fayth and Canons of the Church and to put them in execution This Princes may do and must doe with their royall power but they may not commaund what they list in ecclesiasticall causes as you would haue them Theo. You snarle stil when you see your selfe brought to the wall What we woulde haue Princes to doe shall soone appeare if you cease from slaundering and keepe to the matter Our tongues ake with telling you that we hold no such opinion and yet you neuer leaue grating at vs as if we did The point that nowe wee stande at is this whether in a Christian common wealth the temporall sworde as you call it that is the publike authoritie of the Magistrate must bee vsed to receiue establish and defende the true faith of Christ and wholesome discipline of his Church and to prohibite displace and punish the contrarie say nay if you dare Phi. Wee neuer ment it Theo. Then in all spirituall thinges and causes Princes onely beare the sword that is haue publike authoritie to receiue establish and defende all poyntes and partes of Christian Doctrine and Discipline within their Realmes and without their helpe though the fayth and Canons of Christes Church may bee pryuately professed and obserued of such as bee willing yet can they not bee generally planted and setled in any kingdome nor vrged by publike Lawes externall punishments on such as refuse but by their consents that beare the sword This is it that wee say refell it if you can Phi. This is not your opinion but ours Wee confesse Princes to bee defenders of the faith and assisters of the Church with their secular might and power you auouche them to bee supreme moderatours and directours of all spirituall thinges and causes without restraint Theo. Wee auouche you to bee Supreme lyars and that which is worse you thinke with facing in time to get some credite to your fabling You finde no such thing in our words nor deedes as you report of vs. We confesse Princes to bee supreme gouernours that is as wee haue often told you supreme bearers of the sworde which was first ordained from aboue to defend and preserue as well goodlines and honestie as peace and tranquillitie amongest men We giue Princes no power to deuise or inuent new religions to alter or change Sacraments to decide or debate doubtes of faith to disturbe or infringe the canons of the church The publike power and outward meanes which God hath vnited and annexed to their swords as namely to commaund by their Edicts and dispose the goods and bodies of such as resist them this power and meanes wee say must be conuerted and vsed first to the seruice and glorie of God next to the profit and welfare of their Realmes that is as much or rather more for thinges spirituall than temporall Phi. If you giue Princes no iudicial nor spiritual power in matters of religiō but an externall and temporall power to permit and establish that which God commaundeth howe can they bee supreme Theo. Supreme they be for that by Gods Lawe they bee not vnder the Popes checke and correction though to leade on the simple sort with a better shewe you conceale that superiority which the Pope chalengeth ouer Princes and enter your whole action for the Church which woord you knew was more gratious and will in no case bee brought to take our meaning right lest you shoulde bee driuen either to proue your assertion which you can not or to confesse ours which you will not And therefore you wrest the word supreme against the very grounds of our common fayth and rules of your priuate speach to make it seeme false and absurde and then as valiant Captaines you wrestle with the fansies which your selues haue deuised fighting thus with your own shadowes you thinke your Seminaries the only lights and lanternes of Christendome but you must go more syncerely to worke before you can winne the cause Phi. Supreme is superiour to all and subiect to none Theo. And so bee Princes superiour to all men within their Realmes and subiect to no man without their Realmes Phi. What superiour to Christ the Church and all Theo. Haue you neuer done with that idle and eluish obiection Wee compare not man with God nor bodies on earth with spirites in heauen but wee conferre mortall men with their like bearing flesh about them which the sworde may touch and in comparison of them wee say Princes are superiour to all men within their dominions Bishoppes and others and subiect to no man without their dominions Prelate nor Pope to bee commaunded corrected and deposed by their tribunals This is the supremacie which wee attribute to Princes that all men within their Territories shoulde obey their Lawes or abide their pleasures and that no man on earth hath authoritie to take their swordes from them by iudiciall sentence or martiall violence Leaue wrangling and rouing and speake directly to this question Phi. I will if you first graunt that your meaning is not so large as your woordes bee Theo. You would fayne seeme with your eloquent nifles to woorke some masteries but it will not bee Our woordes are no larger than our meaning and both be true Phi. Why supreme is superiour to al none excepted no not Christ himselfe The. And what are these phrases the most holy the most mightie the most blessed which you applie to the Pope do they except Christ or no Phi. If nothing else be added they doe not by rigor of comparison but common vse of speach vnderstandeth them of earthly men and alwayes excepteth first God with whom there can bee none compared and next his Saints which be farre from vs in an other and better life Theo. I crie you mercie You may salute your Romish Pharaoh when you will with the most mightie Priest the most blessed father the chiefe Pastor and many such loftie stiles and wee must come after with salt and spoones and conceaue that Christ is excepted though he bee not because your flatteries bee common and if wee to signifie that Princes by Gods lawe bee not vnder the Popes yoke defende them to bee superiour to all men at home and subiect to no mans Courts or Consistories abroade and therfore call them supreme Gouernours of their owne people and Countries you sounde alarme against vs as if wee went about to defeate Christ of his kingdome and disseism
Theo. S. Paul expressely writeth of the Prince that He beareth the sword not without cause and is Gods minister to reuenge him that doth euil And our Sauiour seuerely forbiddeth Peter the rest of his Apostles to medle with the sword All that take the sword shall perish by the sworde and to them all You know that kinges of Nations raigne ouer theÌ„ and they that be great exercise authoritie with you it shall not be so The sword is but the signe of publike and Princely power and where the thing is not lawfull the signe is vnlawfull Since then the Lord interdicteth his Apostles and messengers all princely power it is euident the sword which is but a signe thereof is likewise interdicted them Thus much Bernard sticketh not to tell Pope Eugenius to his face It is the Lordes voice in the Gospell Kinges of Nations are Lordes ouer them and they that haue power on them are called gracious and the Lord inferreth you shall not be so It is a cleare case the Apostles are forbidden dominion Go thou then saith Bernard to the Pope and vsurpe if thou dare either an Apostleship if thou be a Prince or dominion if thou be Apostolik Thou art expressely forbidden one of them If thou wilt haue both thou shalt loose both The paterne of an Apostle is this dominion is interdicted seruice is inioyned Gird thy selfe with thy sworde the sworde of the spirit which is the word of God And this Pope Nicholas fairely confesseth The church of God hath no sword but the spirituall wherewith she quickeneth she killeth not Your owne law saith It is easily proued of Bishops and other clergimen whatsoeuer that they may not either by their owne authoritie or by the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome take weapon in hand exercise the materiall sworde addeth this reason For euery man besides him and his authoritie which hath lawfull power and which as the Apostle saith beareth the sworde not without cause to whom euerie soule ought to bee subiect euery man I say that without this authoritie taketh the sword shall perish with the sword He that beareth the sword may lawfully put malefactors to death and wage warre with his enimies when neede so requireth which Bishops may not doe The weapons of our warfare are not carnall saith S. Paul Quid Episcopis cum bello What haue Bishops to do with batle saith Athanasius Ambrose Pugnare non debeo I ought not to fight If they may not fight much lesse kil if they may do neither they can not beare the sword which is appointed by God receiued of men to doe both The words of our Sauior are cleare with vs for the negatiue My kingdom saith he is not of this world If then your Priests Prelats Popes wil be the seruants of Christ they must chaleÌ„ge no worldly kingdom as froÌ„ him or in his name The seruant is not aboue his master If the master with his own mouth haue denied it the seruaÌ„ts may not affirm it or vsurp it The souldiers of Christ must not intangle them-selues with secular affaires much lesse make themselues Lords and iudges of earthly matters which office properly belongeth to the sworde and must be sustained of all those that beare the sword The Popes themselues before their power and pride grew so great were of this opinion with vs. When the truth which is Christ was once come after that saith Pope Nicolas neither did the Emperour take vppon him the Bishops right nor the Bishop vsurpe the Emperours name because the same mediatour of God and man the man Christ Iesus distinguisheth the offices of ech power with proper actions and different dignities to this end that the Bishop which is a souldier vnto God shoulde not intangle and snare himselfe with wordly affaires and againe the Prince which is occupied in earthly matters should not be Ruler of diuine things The very same text word for word your Decrees make Cyprian write to Iulian the Emperour if those be Cyprians wordes and not rather an impudent forgerie in his name For how could Cyprian that died vnder Valerian 260. after Christ write to Iulian that began his raigne 360. after Christ But such proppes are fittest to bolster vp your kingdom of darkenesse and error Sure it is which the wordes of our Sauiour apparantly proue that all the Disciples and Apostles of Christ are straitly charged not to medle with princely Scepters and swordes and therefore out of all question only Princes beare the sworde within their owne Realmes and dominions for so much as that honour and power is expressely prohibited and interdicted by the Lord himselfe to all Preachers and Bishops Phi. This wee woulde haue graunted you with halfe these wordes Theo. And this wee woulde haue depende not on your grant which is fickle but on such proofes as we might make iust accouÌ„t of Phi. How then Theo. As the first is apparant that onely Princes haue the sword committed to their charge by Gods appointmeÌ„t so the next is as euident that the sword I meane the publike authoritie of Magistrats in Christian common-wealthes hath been may be and should be vsed for the receiuing establishing and deâ—ending of that which is good and prohibiting abolishing and punishing of that which is euill in all spirituall and ecclesiasticall thinges and causes as well as in temporall which the sacred Scriptures the auncient Fathers the Church Stories the lawes and examples of al ages and countries do sufficiently proue as you saw before Phi. This is not it that we stand on Theo. This is that we affirme stand you on what you lift Phi. If this be granted what will you conclude Theo. If this be proued you shall see what we conclude If it bee not shew where the defect is Phi. That onely Princes beare the sword within their own realms which may be and should bee vsed for the receiuing establishing and defending of the faith Cannons of the church all thinges incident or pertinent to the same and for prohibiting and punishing whatsoeuer is repugnant to either in this we finde no defect Let vs therefore see what you will infer The. First then the words of our oth that Her Highnes is the only gouernor of this realm bearing the sword as wel in al spiritual or ecclesiastical things causes as teÌ„poral be not only tolerable resonable but such by your own coÌ„fessioÌ„ as we may truly defend you can not iustly confute Next the absurdities which you bring against vs as if we deriued the spirituall power of preaching baptizing binding loosing imposing handes and offering prayers to God from the Princes Soueraigne right and title which we doe not all these absurdities I say bee mere follies grounded vpon the carelesse mistaking if not spitefull peruerting of our wordes Thirdly your defacing and imâ—â—ouing the Princes sworde and aduauncing and defending against
all Princes one that shall commaund them and depose them at his pleasure what else is this but a resisting of the powers which God hath ordained â—recting and 〈◊〉 in the Church of Christ without authoritie that vnder the couert of binding and feeding shall make him-selfe Lorde of all kingdomes and countries Phi. Supreme is the worde that wee most impugne Theo. And Supreme is the worde which you shall neuer ouerthrow being a plaine and manifest deduction out of the wordes of S. Paul Let euerie soule saith hee bee subiect to the superiour Powers If all men must be subiect to them ergo they be superiour to all and superiour to all is supreme Consult both your Seminaries and refell this one sequele if you can marie cauill not as your Apologie doeth that Supreme bringeth Christ and his Sainctes in subiection to Princes The Apostle speaketh of mortall men and so doe wee And in comparison with them if Sainct Pauls words be true that euery soule must be subiect to Princes as vnto Superiours our consequent is irrefutable that Princes be supreme Phi. S. Paul maketh them superiours ouer all persons but not ouer all thinges Theo. That distinction is ours not yours we did euer interprete supreme for superiour to all men within their dominions Phi. And so wee graunt them to bee but not in all thinges For in temporall thinges they be superiours to all men in spirituall they bee not Theo. That restraint commeth too late The holy Ghost charging you to be subiect to them simply without addition it passeth your reach to limit in what thinges you will and in what thinges you will not be subiect Againe wee haue inuinciblie proued and you haue clearely confessed that Princes may commaunde for trueth and that they beare the sworde for the perfect obseruation and execution of Gods lawe and publike defence of the faith and Cannons of the Church which bee thinges not temporall but spirituall and out of all question where they may by Gods law command all men must obey them not onely for feare of wrath but also for conscience sake Lastly what better proofe can you wish that in all thinges they bee superiours to all men than that their sworde may not bee resisted for any temporall or spirituall cause but must bee rather indured with meekenes reuerence though they persecute truth shew themselues enemies to God and his church For so the Lord in his owne person taught vs his Apostles after him in their writings sufferings followed the same course Phi. Had Heathen tyrantes lawfull power ouer Christ and his Apostles in spirituall thinges Theo. Lawfull power of the sworde to rewarde and punish they had ouer Christ and his Apostles in thinges and causes spiritual The Lord of grace and life being deliuered by the Priests to the Magistrate for blasphemie which is a spirituall crime refused not the iudge but submitting him-selfe to the Princes Deputie confessed Pilates power ouer him to bee from heauen notwithstanding Pilates sentence against him was wrongfull and wicked S. Paul imprisoned for preaching the Gospel required to be sent to Caesar and to make answere before Caesar concerning his doctrine and doings S. Peter patiently endured Neroes sword euen vnto death for teaching the trueth and warned all Christians to doe the like Let none of you suffer publike punishment as a murderer or as a theefe or a malefactour or as a medler with other mens matters but if any man suffer as a Christian that is for religion let him not be ashamed but glorifie God in this respect They that resist especially wheÌ„ they be punished for religioÌ„ shal receiue to themselues iudgement and damnation for God is then most dishonoured when wee make religion a buckler for rebellion If none must resist that suffer as christians ergo by Gods ordinance al men be subiect to the Princes sword euen in spirituall causes as well as in temporall Phi. To suffer but not to obey Theo. Suffering is as sure a signe of subiection as obeying And yet whom you must indure commaunding that which is euill in matters of religion those you must obey when they commaunde that which is good in the selfe same causes which you heard concluded out of S. Augustine before Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Emperors which are made for the truth of God incurreth a grieuous iudgement And againe When Emperours hold truth they commaund for truth which whosoeuer despiseth purchaseth to himselfe iudgement So that all men are bound to be subiect to the sword in all thinges be they temporall or spirituall not only by suffering but also by obeying mary with this caution that in thinges which bee good and agreeable to the law of God the sword must be obeyed in things that be otherwise it must be indured This then is the supreme power of Princes which we soberly teach and you so bitterly detest that they be Gods ministers in their owne dominions bearing the sword freely to permit and publikely to defend that which God commaundeth in faith and good manners and in ecclesiasticall discipline to receiue and establish such rules and orders as the Scriptures and Canons shal decide to be needfull and healthfull for the Church of God in their kingdomes And as they may lawfully commaund that which is good in all thinges and causes bee they temporall spirituall or ecclesiasticall so may they with iust force remoue whatsoeuer is erronious vitious or superstitious within their Landes and with externall losses and corporall paines represse the brochers and abetters of heresies and all impieties from which subiection vnto Princes no man within their Realmes Monke Priest Preacher nor Prelate is exempted and without their Realmes no mortall man hath any power from Christ iudicially to depose them much lesse to inuade them in open field least of al to warraÌ„t their subiectes to rebell against them These be the things which we contend for not whether Princes be Christs masters or the functions to preach baptise impose hands forgiue sinnes must be deriued from the Princes power and lawes or the Apostles might enter to conuert countries without Caesars delagations those bee iestes and shiftes of yours no braunches nor sequeles of our opinion You see the partes proofes of our doctrine neither draw back nor dally but go to the matter and say what fault you finde with our assertion Phi. The former branches of your assertion might be receiued if it were agreed by whom the sword should be directed We our selues confesse that the Princes sworde should permit defend and execute that which is good in all spirituall and ecclesiasticall thinges causes and iudgementes and repell and punish the contrarie But least Princes shoulde wade too farre or tread awry we would haue their swords guided and if need be restrained by such as haue greater experience and better intelligence in those affaires For ecclesiasticall rules and
Thus S. Cyril largely sheweth In the proposition of Caiphas there is contained a double sense one which Caiphas himselfe ment that it was expedient Christ should die by the hands of the Iewes lest the whole Nation should bee destroyed by the Romanes This was a false and wicked meaning comming from the lewd intention of Caiphas An other sense of the same proposition was intended by the holy Ghost that it was needfull that only Christ should die for the saluation of the whole world This Caiphas neither vnderstood nor ment yet his wordes were such as might fitly serue this sense of the holy Ghost For Caiphas himself as crueller readier to wickednes and bloodier than the rest encourageth others staggering at it by saying you perceaue nothing neither vnderstād you that it is expediēt the life of one man should be neglected for the whole coūtrie Phi. He spake this by the holy Ghost Theo. The diuell possessed his hart but the power of God restrained and ordered his speach Phi. Had he not the Spirit of Prophesie Theo. No more than Saul the bloudsucker had when he praied for Dauid whom hee sought to kill than Iudas the traytor had when he iustified his master and hanged himselfe yea than the Dyuell had when hee confessed and intreated the Sonne of God not to torment him before his time Phi. Why then doth S. Iohn giue this note of him that he was hie Priest for that yere Theo. S. Iohn noteth this that it pleased God so to temper the hie Priests wordes that where hee spake to hasten the death of our Sauiour his wordes sounded that the people should vtterly perish without the death of Christ which was most true but not his meaning Phi. His tongue spake trueth though his hart did erre Theo. Satan poisoned his hart but GOD bridled his mouth Phi. Can not God doe the like to the Bishop of Rome Theo. No doubt he can but you must proue that he will Phi. If he did so to Caiphas much more will hee do it to the head of his Church Theo. How hangeth this geare together Hee did once so to Caiphas ergo hee will always doe the like where you list to haue it Phi. Not where we list but where he will Theo. That helpeth you litle God can do the like where whē he wil. What is that to the Bishop of Rome We doubt not of Gods power but smile at your folly which conclude this to be ordinarie in the Pope which was extraordinarie in Caiphas Phi. It was ordinarie in Caiphas by reason of his office and so saith S. Iohn The. S. Iohn doth not say it was ordinarie either in al hie priests or in Caiphas for Caiphas himself the very same yere as S. Matt. witnesseth iudicially pronounced our Sauiour to be a blasphemer which I hope you will not say came from the direction of the holy Ghost The hie Priest therefore did erre and that most hainously in iudgement and if this be al your hold the Pope may doe the like Phi. What may be is hard to determine But this we know the Pope did neuer yet erre sitting in his Tribunal to giue iudgement Theo. As though the place and not the Pope had assurance of trueth annexed vnto it What holines hath the Consistorie to safegard the iudge from error The promise of Christ was made to the person and not to the place Phi. To the person but sitting in iudgement Theo. Did Peter sitte in iudgement at that time when he denied his master Phi. Wee say not so Theo But that night was the promise made vnto him and that night performed in him when Peter poore man stoode warming himselfe amongst the manye and durst not answer the first interrogatorie that a silly wenche proposed to him And therefore Christ neuer spake of your Courtes nor Consistories but promised Peter to pardon his fault and to strengthen his faith lest hee should perseuere in that his Apostasie Phi. Had we no warrant for the Bishop of Rome that his faith shall not faile yet experience proueth this which we say to be true that he neuer erred iudicially that is sitting in his Consistorie Theo. What need we care where he sate so long as we bee sure he did erre What wrangling is this to aske for the place where and the time when the Pope spake the wordes Hee that may erre at home may likewise erre abroade If the Pope bee an heretike in his chamber hee can be no Catholike in his Consistorie Phi. Definitiue sentence he neuer gaue any against the faith Theo. What are his decretals but definitiue sentences And in those he hath erred Phi. Neuer Theo. The Decretal of Clemens which I before alleaged is altogether erronious They were two Decretall Epistles for the which Honorius was condemned The decretal of Vigilius which Liberatus remembreth is expresly against the faith Celestinus erred iudicially as your owne friendes confesse but you haue pared that Decretall as you haue done many others and left out the later part lest we should spie the fault Phi. Who told you so Theo. They that had no cause to belie you Alfonsus a great Patrone of your side sayth It is a thing manifest to al men that Pope Celestinus erred touching the mariage of the faithful when either part falleth into heresie Neither was this error of Celestinus such as ought to be imputed only to negligence so that we may say he erred as a priuate person and not as Pope because this decision of Celestinus was in the auncient Decratals which I my selfe haue seene and read Innocentius the third when he decided the case confessed that one of his predecessours had decreed otherwise which saith the gloze was Celestinus whose resolution was in the olde Decretals and it was euil that Celestinus sayd Alexander the 3. in a matter of great importance said Quamuis aliter a quibusdam praedecessoribus nostris sit aliquando iudicatum though some of our predecessours haue heretofore otherwise giuen iudgement Phi. These were matters of mariage and not of faith Theo. As though the seuering of those whom God hath ioyned did not touch the faith and so did some of these Popes and that iudicially by their contrarie Decrees Againe Nicolas the fourth sayth in his Decretal that To renounce the proprietie of all thinges not in special only but in common also is meritorious and holy which Christ taught by word and confirmed by example and the first foūders of the militant church deriued to others by the paterne of their doctrine life Iohn the 22. sayth it is hereticall to affirme that Christ his Apostles had nothing in speciall nor in common Phi. The next extrauagant reconcileth them both Theo. The Pope laboureth for life to shift off the matter at last commeth with a very iest De sola abdicatione proprietatis non iuris alterius in praefata declaratione
sworde which the Prince and not the Priest beareth in Gods behalfe to force refusers and chastiâ—e malefactours as I before at large haue proued And so by consequent Princes are neither bound to the Popes hest for direction nor in daunger of the Popes court for correction but that they may by the aduise and instruction of such as bee learned and godly pastors about them vse their swords for the receiuing setling of trueth and perfect establishing of Christs wil testament within their owne realmes without expectâ—ng or regarding what the bishops of Rome and his adherentes like or allow Phi. But all this while you resolue not who shall be iudge which is the true will and Testament of Christ. Theo. Let him that maketh the claime vndertake the proofe We find no place nor person to whom the sonne of God hath referred vs for the right vnderstanding of his wil but only to himselfe Phi. You bind the people to followe the Prince which of all others is the worst way to come by truth Theo. We bind no man to prince nor Pope for matters of faith Only we say subiects must endure their princes with patience when they command for error obey them with diligence when they maintaine the truth Farther or other seruitude in causes of conscience wee lay on no man and that burden the church of Christ neuer refused neither vnder heretikes Apostataes nor infidels til the Pope growing great by the ruine of the Empire and encreasing as fast in pride as he did in wealth would needs giue the aduenture to rule kingdomes depose Princes though by Gods lawe hee haue no more power nor iurisdiction ouer them than any other Bishop hath which is so farre from that he claimeth and vsurpeth that he as well as other Bishops should be subiect to the sword and obedient to the lawes of the Romane Emperour and so was hee as I haue plainely shewed to the time that forsaking the Grecians and reuolting from the Germanes hee learned to chaunge Lords so often that at length what with sedition of subiects dissention of princes superstition of al sorts the mysterie of iniquitie working he made himselfe Lord and master of all Phi. You bee lothe I see to yeeld the bishop of Rome any right to force princes to their dueties Theo. And you be as willing he should not only take their crownes but tread on their neckes though hee haue no right to superuise their doings or censure their persons Phi. If it be not his right we aske it not Theo. If it be his right we resist it not Phi. Will you admit it if we proue it Theo. Will you not claime it except you proue it Phi. We will not Theo. Then say what you will or can for the confirmation of it THE THIRD PART REFELLETH THE IESVITES REASONS AND authorities for the Popes depriuing of Princes and the bearing of armes by subiectes against their Soueraignes vpon his censures declareth the tyrannies iniuries of Antichrist seeking to exalt himselfe aboue kings and Princes and conuinceth that no deposition was offered by the Pope for a thowsande yeares after Christ and none agnised by any Christian Prince vntill this present daie Phi. THE Pope may reproue Princes excommunicate them and if neede bee depose them which other Bishoppes can not doe Theo. Seuer these thinges which you ioyne togither and the truth will the sooner appeare Reproue them he may when they violate the precepts of God and so may any other Bishop or teacher For God hath placed them in his church to teach reproue instruct reforme as wel Princes as others charged them not to conceale one word of that he hath spoken neither for fauour nor terrour of any Prince The will of God must be declared to all and sinne reproued in all without dissembling or flattering with any sort or State of men and that is most expedient for all euen for Princes themselues rather to heare with humilitie what God hath decreed for their saluation than to run to their owne destruction without recalling or warning So Samuel reproued king Saul Ahias king Ieroboam Elias king Achab Elizeus king Iehoram Iohn Baptist king Herod Neither were wicked Princes onely but also the good and vertuous kinges of Iudah reproued by the Prophets as namely king Dauid by Nathan king Iehosaphat by Iehu and Ezechias by the Prophet Esaie but this reproofe reached no farther than to put them in minde of Gods graces and mercies towardes them and their dueties againe towardes him They neuer offered violence to their Persons nor preiudice to their States onely they did Gods message vnto them without halting or doubling and so should euery Preacher and Bishop not feare with meekenesse and reuerence to laye before Princes the sacred and righteous will of God without respect whether Princes tooke it in good or euill part But farther or other attemptes against Princes than in wordes to declare the will and precepts of God God hath not permitted vnto Preachers Prophets Prelats nor Popes Phi. Yes they may repell them from the Sacramentes which is more than reprouing them in words Theo. If you meane they may not minister the Sacramentes vnto Princes without faith and repentance which God requireth of men that shall be baptized or haue accesse to his table we graunt they must rather hazard their liues than baptize Princes which beleeue not or distribute the Lordes mysteries to them that repent not but giue wilful and open signification of impietie to the dishonoring of his name that is authour of those thinges and the prophaning of the thinges them-selues which bee holie and vndefiled For if Princes will bee partakers of Gods aboundaunt blessinges proposed in Christ his Sonne to all that beleeue and conuert they must not looke to commaund God and his Sacramentes but with lowlines of hart assuraunce of fayth and amendment of life submit themselues vnder the mighty hand of God to receiue his graces in such sort as hee hath prescribed otherwise they prouoke God to their vtter and eternall ouerthrowe and the minister that ioyned with them in their sinnes shall not bee seuered from them in their plagues God hating and punishing the pride and presumption of Princes against him-selfe as much as the vices of meaner men or rather more No small vengeance sayth Chrysostom hangeth ouer your heades which be ministers if you suffer any heynous offendour to be partaker of this table His blood shall be required at your hands Whether he be Captaine Lieutenant or crowned king if hee come vnworthily forbid him in this case thy power is greater than his Phi. If they may be excommunicated ergo they may be deposed Theo. How doth that follow Phi. Well enough When a Prince is excommunicated hee looseth all right to rule and his subiectes are streight-wayes free from yeelding any obedience to him Theo. Who tould you so Phi. No catholike Diuine of
as in Heli who was both Iudge and high-Priest but commonly both the Persons were distinct and the offices And hence grew the custome from inferiour ecclesiastical Iudges to appeale to the High-Priest and from inferiour Princes secular Iudges to appeale to the King or Emperour You haue turned into ex and not only debarred the Prince of all his right but subiected him to the Priest In al doubts and differences betwixt Prince and people euen to the losse of his Crowne if the Priest say the word Phi. We follow the latine text as wee found it Theo. You might easily follow that which your selues had framed to your liking but the order of the Iewes common wealth and the circumstances of the text it selfe admitte no such meaning as you make of it For it is more than euident and testified not in a few places of the scriptures that al causes neither were nor might bee referred to the Priest Moses at the counsell of Iethro chose men of courage out of all Israel made them heads ouer the people Rulers ouer thousands Rulers ouer hundreds Rulers ouer fifties Rulers ouer tens And they iudged the people at all seasons but brought the hard causes vnto Moses for they iudged al small or easie matters themselues And though Moses by them was eased of all sauing hard and importing causes yet finding that burden too heauie for one man alone he complained vnto God and saide I am not able to beare all this people alone for it is too heauie for me To whom God made answere Gather me seuentie men of the Elders of Israel and bring them vnto the Tabernacle of the Congregation and I will come downe and talke with them there and take off the spirit that is vpon thee and put it vpon them and they shal beare the burden of the people with thee so thou shalt not beare it alone This distinction of inferiour and superiour iudges God after by his law established in that common wealth for euer In the next chapter before this which you alledge order is taken for inferiour iudge in euery Citie throughout the Land Iudges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates that is in al thy Cities which the Lord thy God giueth thee throughout thy Tribes and they shall iudge the people with righteous Iudgement In this Chapter and these very wordes which here you cite Superiour iudges are prescribed to whom harder causes and matters of greater difficultie were to be referred And so the wordes precisely sound If there fall out an hard matter for thee to iudge betwene blood and blood strife and strife sore and sore that be matters of iudgement in thy gates thou shalt rise and go vp to the place which the Lord thy God shall chose there in the land of promise And goe to the Priests of Leui and to the Iudge which shall be in those dayes and aske them and they shall shew thee the matter of iudgement The iudge of which he speaketh was the tēporal Magistrate for so the copulatiue leadeth vs and by that name were the chiefe Rulers of Gods People called before Kings were ordayned as the Booke of Iudges witnesseth neither was the iudge subiect to the Priest but had his charge besides and aboue the Priest which was to see the law of God exactly kept and obserued in all points of all men and to take vengeance on the breaker of any part thereof when as yet there were no kinges and after the creation of kinges both Priest and Iudge were subiect to the king This fourme of regiment by lower and higher Iudges and those both ecclesiasticall and cyuill king Iehosaphat renewed after he returned safe from the battell wherein Achab was slaine For hee set Iudges in the Lande in all the fensed Cities of Iudah Citie by Citie Also in Ierusalem hee appointed of the Leuites and of the Priestes and of the heades of the houses of Israel for the iudgement of the Lorde and for matters of doubt and they dwelt at Hierusalem And hee commaunded them saying thus shall yee doe in the feare of the Lorde in trueth and in a perfect heart euery cause that shall come before you from your brethren remayning in their Cities betweene blood and blood betweene Lawe and precept statutes and iudgements you shall instruct them therein and they shall not trespasse against the Lorde And beholde Amariah the Priest shall bee chiefe ouer you in euery matter of the Lordes and Zebadiah the captaine of the house of Iudah shall bee chiefe ouer you in euery matter of the kinges and the Leuites shal bee Rulers or ouerseers in your presence or vnder you Iehosaphat put that in execution which GOD prescribed by Moses for the debating and determining of greater and weightier causes among the children of Israel placing a Councell of Priestes and secular Magistrates at Hierusalem to consider of those doubtes of the Lawe and offences against GOD and the king which passed the reache of inferiour Iudges in euery Citie Marke then howe many errors you haue committed in alleaging this one place The gouernement which God setled in their common wealth to supply the want of kinges the defence might both ouer-rule kinges and depose kinges and yet when this was ordained there was no king created nor intended in Israel much lesse included or subiected to this consistorie Againe where obedience in these wordes is commaunded as well towardes the ciuil magistrate as towards the Priest you strike out the magistrate cleane and bring both Prince and people in subiection to the Priest in things and causes that be not spiritual but temporal For the deposing of Princes is a meere temporal act and you haue lesse to doe with Princes Crownes than with priuate mens inheritances which yet the priest may not dispose Thirdly the matters which belonged to them and the iudgements which they should giue were precisely limited to the lawe of God in other thinges they might not presume Nowe resisting and deposing of Princes bee things cleane besides the Lawe which Moses deliuered and therefore not determinable by those that sate to iudge according to that Law Fourthly what question can this bee betweene the Prince and the people whether the Magistrate shal bee deposed since GOD hath expressely commaunded the people to bee subiect to the sworde and not to resist against the which precept no earthly Court may deliberate much lesse determine to breake his lawe or licence the people to frustrate his heauenly wil. It is one thing to disburden the cōscience from obeying the euill that a Prince commaundeth which a Priest may doe and an other thing to take the Princes sworde out of his hand for abusing his authoritie which the Priest may not doe Lastly you force the whole text against the manifest experience of those times For it is euident that kinges commaunded and displaced high Priestes but that euer high Priest iudicially displaced
a Prince you shall neuer shewe Omitte Abimelech whom Saul slewe for fauouring Dauid and Zachariah whom king Ioash commaunded to bee stoned not remembring the kindnes of Ioida his father that saued him aliue and set him in his kingdome Did not Salomon cast out Abiathar from being high Priest because hee tooke part with Adoniah his elder brother Where by your conclusion Salomon shoulde haue beene deposed because the high Priest thought Adoniahs right to the Crowne to bee better than Salomons Wee shewe you where the Prince remoued the Priest from his honour and primacie but you can not shewe vs that euer Priest remooued Prince in that Common wealth from his royal dignitie and yet was there then as vrgent and as euident cause to do it as you can nowe or doe pretend For all the kings of Israel were open Idolaters Iehu himselfe not excepted and yet not one of them deposed by Priest or Prophet so long as their kingdome stoode which was 253. yeeres The greater part of the kinges of Iudah euen foureteene of them were likewise plaine Idolaters as Salomon Roboam Abiam Ioram Ahaziah Ioash Amazias Ahaz Manasses Amon Ioachaz Eliakim Ioacim Zedechias and not a Priest or Prophete in Iudah so much as offered to displace or resist one of them If by Gods Lawe as you suppose the Priestes were superiour Iudges to punish such offences euen in princes howe can you excuse the high Priest and the rest to whom that charge was committed for not executing that power which God gaue them vpon these wicked and Idolatrous Princes Phi. The kinges were too mightie for them to remoue Theo. That happilie might hinder the effect but not the attempt of their iudgement We doe not obiect that they were vnable but that they neuer made the onset or offer to doe it Phi. The crueltie of those kinges caused them to forbeare Theo. That is not true Many Priests and Prophetes gaue their liues for reproouing them and more it coulde not cost to depose them Againe Manasses was caried captiue out of his Realme in the midst of his furious Idolatrie and yet in his absence and miserie no man stirred against him but his kingdome was reserued for him till hee was released out of prison and sent backe from Babylon It was therefore not for feare of death but for regard of duetie that the zealous Priests and Prophetes submitted their persons to those wicked Princes whose Idolatrie they reproued with the losse of their liues Phi. This coâ—dition was afterwarde to bee imâ—lied in the receiuing of any king ouer the people of God and true beleeuers for euer videlicet that they should not reduce their people by force or otherwise from the faith of their forefathers and the religion and holy ceremonies thereof receiued at the hands of Gods Priests and none other Insinuating that obseâ—uing these precepts and conditions hee and his sonne after him might long reigne Otherwise as by the practise of their deposition in the bookes and tyme of the kinges it afterward â—ppeareth whereof we haue set downe some examples before the Prophets and Pristes that annointed them of no other condition but to keepe and maintaine the honour of God and his worshippe depriued them againe when they brake with their Lorde and fell to straunge Gods and forced their people to doe the like Theo. God would haue the more care to be taken in choosing a king because it was too late to refuse him when he was once chosen But I trust your selfe will not say that all those conditions which God requireth in a king are forfeitures of his Crowne if he transgresse in any of them GOD in expresse woordes and in the very same place chargeth that the king shall not haue many wiues nor many horses nor abundaunce of golde nor siluer nor lift his heart vp aboue his brethren and thinke you that if a king did offend in any of these he was to bee deposed The precept which your selfe alleage doth not onely concerne the publike sufferance of true religion but the perfect obseruance of euery point that was contained in the lawe of God Hee shall read in the booke of the Lawe all the dayes of his life that hee may learne to feare the Lorde his God and to obserue all the woordes of this Lawe and these statutes to doe them And trowe you the breach of any point of Gods Lawe was depriuation to the king You must bee voyde of all sense if you defend these thinges and yet these bee conditions or as you delight to call them couenants which God exacteth in him that shall bee king ouer his elect and peculiar people The knitting vppe of your matter is like the rest of your discourse The Prophetes and Priestes you say that annointed them of no other coâ—dition but to keepe and maintaine the honour of God and his true worshippe depriued them againe when they brake with their Lorde and fell to straunge Gods and forced their people to doe the like It is vtterly vntrue that euer Priest or Prophete deposed Prince in the common wealthes of Israel or Iudah There were as the Scripture testifieth of the kinges of Israel nineteene and fourteene of the kinges of Iuda that brake with their Lorde and sell to straunge Gods and forced their people to doe the like Shewe that one of them was depriued by any Priest or Prophete and take the whole if you can not leaue false supposing and vaine craking and tell on your tale Phi. And this it was in the old law But now in the new Testament and in the time of Christs spirituall kingdome in the Church Priests haue much more soueraigne authoritie and Princes farre more strict charge to obay loue and cherish the Church Theo. What was in the olde Lawe you haue sayd and wee haue seene and except I bee deceiued you found there very litle for your purpose In the newe Testament I can assure you you will find lesse Where you say that Priests now in the Church haue much more soueraigne authoritie than Priests had in the law of Moses the comparing of their authorities is very superfluous Haue they more or lesse it is nothing to this question Authoritie to depose Princes they neither then had nor nowe haue which is it that you seeke for In what sort Princes are bound to loue cherish and obey the Church was declared before and neede not nowe bee repeated But the Church is neither charged nor licenced by Christ to take Princes Crownes from them Subiection is rather enioyned her in earthly thinges vnto Princes which can not stand with your thrusting them from their thrones vnlesse you take rebellion to be subiection which were very strange And depriuing them of their right is worse than rebelling against theÌ„ to defend your right which yet is not tolerable For he that resisteth them shall receiue iudgement Phi. In the Church without fayle is the supereminent power of Christes
flesh in so much that the flesh is heere called the soule Such a man when the church casteth from her shee keepeth the spirit safe to wit the holie spirite of God which is the guider of the church For if they suffer any such one to bee amongest them hee defileth all and the holie spirite departeth Phi. S. Hierom taketh it otherwise To deliuer him vnto Satan for the destruction of the flesh saith he vt arripiendi illum corporaliter habeat potestatem that the diuell may haue power corporally to possesse him so Saint Chrysostom For the destruction of the flesh that the diuell may strike him with some grieuous sore or other disease Theo. This I told you before was a doubtfull speech and therefore woulde yeelde you no certaine conclusion For besides Sainct Augustine and Sainct Ambrose Sainct Hierom in those bookes which are assuredly his vseth these wordes To deliuer vnto Satan to the destruction of the fleshe for a perpetuall consequent to excommunication in all ages and not for corporall vexation permitted onely to the Apostles Illi si peccauero licet tradere me Satanae in interitum carnis vt spiritus saluus sit A clergie man sayth hee may deliuer mee to Satan if I sinne for the destruction of the fleshe that the spirite may bee safe And inueighing against Vigilantius I maruaile sayth hee the Bishop vnder whome hee is doeth not crush this vnprofitable vessell with the Apostolike rodde euen a rodde of yron and deliuer him into the destruction of the fleshe that the spirite may bee safe Noting by these wordes the right force of excommunication which doeth and shall indure to the ende not any corporall punishment or plague wherewith God sometimes touched such as would not otherwise be reformed A thirde interpretation of these wordes you shall finde in Sainct Augustine writing against Parmenian What did the Apostle sayth hee but prouide for the health of the soule by the destruction of the fleshe whether it were by some corporall punishment or death as in Ananias and his wife which fell down at Peters feete or else that the partie by repentance because he was giuen ouer vnto Satan should kil in himself the wicked concupiscence of the fleshe This later exposition cutteth off cleane your bodilie punishmentes and sheweth the ende of Apostolike excommunication to be this that the offendour by repentaunce should destroy the lustes of his flesh and not that an euill spirit should corporally correct and molest him which you conclude out of these wordes with as great confidence as if it were some maine principle of faith Phi. S. Augustine repeateth both expositions disliketh neither Theo. His accepting of both dischargeth your illation which is wholy grounded on the first But admit that also which Chrysostom seemeth to follow what shall your conclusion be Phi. That the Apostles punished the bodies of such as were christians Theo. Did they lay violent handes on them or vse any externall meanes Phi. They needed not the diuell did it at their word Theo. And because the diuell will not doe the like for you you will supplie the diuels roome and intermedle with his office Are you not wise Diuines that to chalenge the correction of other mens bodies make your selues the Diuels substitutes Phi. Wee make our selues the Apostles substitutes Theo. Then deliuer them to the Diuell as they did and offer them no farther violence nor torment with your owne handes and see what power you haue to chastise the bodies of such as you reiect from the church for so did the Apostles Mary if you content not your selues with speaking the word as they did but because the Diuell fayleth you you take helpe of your handes to punish the bodies of men beware least you be now not Pauls associats in deliuering but Satans in tormenting the carkasses of offendors Phi. Is euerie one that punisheth the bodie Satans associate Theo. They that beare the sworde with lawfull power from God to represse the wicked if cause require to kill the bodie they bee Gods ministers seruing for that intent but they that without this sworde claime to bee the correctors and punishers of mens bodies by violent meanes are the Diuels vicegerentes and not Gods For they bee murderers and the right members of Satan Phi. But wee appoint the Magistrate to doe it Theo. Doe you appoint Magistrates to lay violent handes on themselues Phi. No but on others Theo. And we be disputing of Princes whether they may bee defeated of their crowns and chastised in their bodies vpon your excommunications Phi. Excommunicate persons may bee corporally chastised whosoeuer bee the deede doer and that S. Chrysostoms exposition fully proueth For if it were lawfull then whiles the Apostles did excommunicate why not as well after and in other ages Theo. But if you relent from this that your selues may bee the deed doers then you misse the marke which you shot at The Magistrate wee knowe may corporally punish these and all other offendours but what is that to your position which hold that spirituall Pastors may punish the bodies of the faithful And therfore look to your footing least you faile in your leaping and backe with this legge that a meere spirituall officer may touch the liues and take the goods of heretiks and other excommunicate persons It is a wicked intrusion of Antichrist seeking indirectly and as you call it by accident that is by hooke or by crooke to bring the world and worldly things in subiection to his appetite The Apostles did nothing but separate sinners from the church and house of God because in those dayes there were no christian Princes with ordinarie power to reuenge the disorders committed in and against the church of Christ it pleased God that whom the Apostles and their after-commers for a season cast out of the church as intangled with great and haynous offences the Diuell shoulde afflict them vnto death or otherwise with some grieuous disease as the fault deserued that the rest might feare and not bee bolde to sinne because there was no magistrate to punish them yea many times God visited the sinnes of hypocrites and such as remained in the church in like maner as Paul himselfe testifieth to those of Corinth For this cause many amongest you are stroken with infirmities and diseases and many are dead For if we would iudge our selues we should not bee iudged but when wee are iudged we are chastened of the Lord that wee should not bee condemned with the world And Chrysostom alleadging this place Many such things fall out in the church at this day Because the priest knoweth them not that loden with sinne receiue the reuerend mysteries vnworthily therefore God himselfe often times culleth them out and deliuereth them to Satan And that the Apostles did nothing but cast them out of the church when they deliuered anie to Satan the same Father will teach
a Marginall note Phi. There is no warre in the world so iust or honorable be it ciuill or forraigne as that which is waged for religion we say for the true auncient Catholike Romane religion which by the lawes of holy church and all christian Nations is adiudged to bee the only true worship of God and vnto the obedience of which all Princes people haue yeelded themselues either by oth vow or sacramentes or euerie of these waies For this it is goodly and honorable to fight in such order and times as wee bee warranted in conscience and law by our supreme Pastours and Priestes and not for wild condemned heresies against most lawfull christian catholikes kinges Priests as the rebellious Protestantes and Caluinistes of this time doe without all order law or warrant of God or man As the armes taken for defence of godlie honour and inheritāce in such sort difference from heretical tumults as is said are so much more commendable and glorious for that no crime in the world deserueth more sharpe and zealous pursuite of extreme reuenge whether it be in superiours or subiects than reuolting from the faith to strange religions Theo. Bee you not maruelous sharpe and sounde disputers which alwaies proue that you neede not and euer inferre that you should not Phi. Wee proue directly that which wee vndertooke Theo. What vndertooke you Phi. That Princes might be depriued Theo. By sentence meane you or by violence Phi. By sentence if that will serue but if they yeelde not thereto then by violence Theo. Your iudiciall power to giue sentence of depriuation against them you would faine haue established by the Scriptures and examples of the Primatiue church howe short you came of that reckoning I leaue the wise to consider You proceede nowe to the violent expelling them from their Princely seates wherein it is a world to see how idlely you hunt about or rather purposely pursue the wrong foote because in the right you finde no reliefe Warre for the Catholike Religion is both lawfull and honorable you saie you must adde of the subiectes against their Prince or else you range cleane besides our question Wee striue not what causes may leade christian Princes to make warre on their neighbors but whether it be lawfull or tolerable for the subiect to beare armes against his naturall and absolute Prince You proue which is nothing to your purpose that princes haue waged warres for religion when you come to make your conclusion you secretly conuey this vnder hand which is most in doubtt betwixt vs and in generall termes you proclaime that warres for religion are iust and honorable But Sir in this interprise the person must be respected as well as the cause Be the cause neuer so iust if the person be not authorized by God to draw the sworde they bee no iust nor lawfull warres but barbarous and theenish vprores For say your selfe when malefactours deserue to die may priuate men put them to death without the Magistrate Phi. No. Theo. And if they do be they not murderers though the crime which they reuenge be worthy of death Phi. They bee Theo. Then if in priuate punishmentes men may not presume without his authoritie that beareth the sworde much lesse may they venter on open warres which are wilfull and furious executions by plaine force without all order of iustice vnlesse they be directly warranted by him that hath the sword from God to take vengeance of the wicked Phi. We be warranted in conscience and law Theo. Wee talke nowe of your conclusion not of your commission If Princes who beare the sword may lawfully wage warre for religion is it consequent I aske you that priuate men which haue not the sword may doe the same Phi. Priuate men may not beare armes without authoritie Theo. And if they doe bee they not plaine theeues and murtherers Phi. If they be not warranted to fight Theo. To rifle and slea one is theft and murther by the lawes of God and man what then are they that spoile Realmes and kill thowsandes with armed violence but grand theeues and murtherers Phi. If they be not lawfully authorized thereto they be no better than robbers and slaughterers Theo. Then Princes may mage warre if the cause bee good because God hath giuen them the sworde to maintaine iustice and if that bee refused to offer force both at home and abroade priuate persons may not doe the like bee the cause neuer so iust for so much as they bee not licenced by God to beare or vse the sword Phi. I tolde you before that we bee warranted Theo. So had you neede Your warres else for religion bee no lawfull iust armes but desperate and wicked tumults But by whom are you warranted Phi. By our supreme Pastors and Priestes Theo. Doe Pastours and Priestes beare the sworde Phi. I say not so but they warrant vs to take the sworde Theo. Can they warrant you to take the sword that haue no autoritie to beare the sword Phi. They be superiour iudges to these that beare the sworde Theo. What In temporall causes Phi. No but in spirituall Theo. Fighting and killing are martiall not spirituall affaires Phi. Yet to be directed by spiritual Pastors Theo. We striue not for directing but for authorizing of armes Preachers may be consulted whether the quarrell be iust but onely the Magistrate that hath from heauen supreme power of goods lands life and death can warrant the subiect to vse the sword Phi. The cause maketh the warre lawfull or otherwise It is godly and honorable to fight for religion we say for the true ancient catholike Romane religion in such order and time as we be warranted in conscience and lawe by our supreme Pastours Priestes and not for vile condemned heresies against most lawfull christian catholike kinges and Priestes as the rebellious Protestants and Caluinistes of this time do without all order law warrant of God or man Theo. If Nabals sheepe be not all shorne I dare warrant you better intertainement there than euer Dauid had Spoiles massacres conspiracies and treasons euen to the destruction and murther of Princes by their own seruāts if a Priest say the word you count in your selues to be iust honorable and godlie warres If others doe but stand on their gard to keepe their liues and families from the bloodie rage of their enimies seeking to put whole townes and Prouinces of them to the sworde against all lawe and reason and to disturbe the kingdomes in the minoritie of the right Gouernours or if they defend their ancient and christian liberties couenanted and agreed on by those Princes to whō they first submitted themselues and euer since confirmed and allowed by the kinges that haue succeeded If in either of these two cases the godly require their right and offer no wrong impugne not their Princes but onely saue their owne liues you crie rebellious heretikes rebellious
reportes wee may hardly trust since your speciall instaunces be so corrupted and wrested And could you shewe that which you speake of as you can not you must also proue it well done or at leâ—t to haue beene liked and allowed of the Church of Christ before we can receiue it The Apostles rule is strong against it You must bee subiect not onely for wrath but for conscience sake Many thousand Martyrs Bishoppes others submitted themselues and endured the vilest torments that coulde bee deuised against them as the ten persecutions of Christes Church vnder heathen Princes most clearly witnesse that euer any of their subiects rebelled against those bloody persecutors in respect of religion must be your care to shewe Wee reading all the monumentes of those tymes verily find none and by your silence it should appeare your selues know none otherwise we do not thinke you woulde disfurnish your cause and trouble the reader with impertinent matters That the Citizens of Antioch defended their Church with armes against the Emperour Galerius his officers I find it writteÌ„ in no good Author neither do you quote the place that Storie you may put in your Legende as taken thence by most likelyhood The temples of their bodies which were farre more precious they did not defend from the furious and insatiable rage of Diocletian Maximinus but as well at Antioche as in all other places subiect to the Romane Empire the christian men women mildly gladly suffered those torments deaths and shames which in our eyes neither flesh could beare nor nature brooke so that wee haue cause rather to maruaile at their patience than to mistrust their disobedience Phi. S. Basil and S. Ambrose people defended them against the inuasions of Heretikes Theo. After Valens the Emperour had twise decreed to banish S. Basil and was the first tyme stopped of his course by the suddaine sicknes of his sonne and terror of his wife and the second time by a straunge trembling of hande and heart as he was subscribing the sentence of deportation against him hee neuer after offered to meddle with Saint Basill but suffered him quietly to enioy his Bishopricke Yet fell there out after this a contention betweene the Lieutenaunt of Pontus and Saint Basill about the liberties of the sanctuarie for a Noble woman that had taken the Church for her refuge to saue her selfe from one that woulde haue forced her to mariage against her will The Deputie required the woman to bee deliuered the Bishoppe replied that hee might not violate the Lawes of GOD and man The Deputie stomacking Saint Basill and the more for his stout defence otherwise of the Christian faith sent for the Bishoppe to his Tribunall and commaunding him to bee stript threatned to whippe him and to teare his flesh with Iron hookes This indignitie the people could no longer abide but seeing their Pastor thus shamefully handled without the Emperours commandemeÌ„t or knowledge vpon the priuate displeasure of a Deputie for the liberties of the Church established by the Romane Lawes the whole citie men and women fell to an vprore and were like enough to haue done the Deputie some mischiefe but that Saint Basil with much adoe repressing the people deliuered his persecutor from that perill This is the true report of Saint Basils case euen out of the same author which you auouche Gregorie Nazianzene Their griefe you see was not against the Emperours power or fact but against the malice of a Lieutenant presuming vpon a priuate grudge without any warrant from the Prince not onely to doe that which the Emperour in his owne person had refrained but in most spitefull and seruile manner to abuse their Bishop against all order of Lawe And this tumult S. Basil neither procured nor praised but asswaged with his presence and offered himselfe to the Deputies pleasure Of S. Ambrose wee spake before by occasion and thither we send you It is most vntrue that the people of Millan either did or might take armes against the Emperour though hee were then but a child and therefore might make no Lawes for Religion or otherwise without Theodosius ioynt Emperour with him in possession of the scepter before him Which exception neither S. Ambrose nor other godly bishops vsed against him but submitted themselues with al meekenes when in reason they might haue taken this aduantage Of the people S. Ambrose himselfe giueth this testimonie In singulis vobis Iob reuixit in singulis sancti illius patientia virtus refulsit Quid enim praesentis dici potuit a viris Christianis quà m quod â—odie in vobis locutus est Spiritus sanctus Rogamus Auguste non pugnamus non timemus sed rogamus Hoc Christianos decet In euery one of you Iob is aliue againe in eche of you his patience and vertue shined What coulde bee sayde fitter by Christian men than that which the holy Ghost this day spake in you We beseech O Emperour we offer not armes Wee feare not to die but we intreate thy clemencie This beseemeth Christians to desire tranquillitie of peace faith but to bee constant in the truth euen vnto death And for his part when hee heard that his Church was taken vp by the Emperours souldiers he fet only somewhat the deeper sighes sayd to such as exhorted him to goe thither deliuer vp my Church I may not but sight I ought not Phi. But the people were in a commotion which appeareth by that S. Ambrose answered when they willed him to asswage their furie It lay in him not to incite them but hee had no meanes to represse them Theo. Truth it is that the people flocked to their Churches and chose rather to bee slaine in the place than to leaue them vnto Arians But that they offered armes or attempted any force either for S. Ambrose or against Valentinian is a manifest vntrueth The merchaunts were amerced and emprisoned the Nobles were hardly threatned and S. Ambrose himselfe charged as with a sedition and yet all the violence that was offered was this The people passing from one Church to an other met a Chapleine of the Arrians and some vnruly persons as in such heates it can not otherwise be chosen beganne to illude and abuse the man but the Bishop presently sent his Priestes and Deacons and rescued him from that iniurie which yet the Emperour tooke so grieuously that hee layd a number of them in Irons and imposed a great mulet vpon the whole Citie to bee paide within three dayes Farther force was none offered by the people of Millan and yet of that small disorder Saint Ambrose saith If they thought him to bee the inciter or stirrer of the people they should straightway reuenge it on him or banish him into what wildernesse they would And to that end he departed home to bed to his owne house that if any man woulde haue him into exile
much lesse so great a Prince Truly I prepared to depart for so Montanus your messenger knoweth that vpon the receit of your letters if your grace vouchsafed but to write I might presently bee gone with my readines to obay preuent your rescript For I am not so madde as to thinke I may contradict such preceptes With what forehead then can they say I obaied not powers Neuer recken this man for a resistant that so many wayes protesteth and confirmeth his obedience to Princes learne you rather to follow his submission and draw him not against his own both deeds and wordes to be of your faction Phi. The people of Alexandria were twise or thrise in an vprore about him first vnder Constantius and after vnder Valens Theo. The people of Alexandria were very tumultuous and raised many horrible garboyles both in the Church and common wealth Socrates saith of them Populus Alexandrinus prae alijs populis seditionibus delectatur si quando occasionem seditionis fuerit nactus ad intolerabilia mala prorumpit nec sine sanguine sedatur The people of Alexandria delight in sedition more than other Cities and if at any time they catch any occasion to make a tumult they runne headlong to foule outrages and neuer end but with blood The selfe same report Euagrius giueth of them The people are soone stirred and easilie incited to a tumult most of all others they of Alexandria who by reason of their great number those obscure persons and of all sortes are insolent rash bold and in furie will venter on any thing Lamentable examples whereof you may reade in the stories of the church describing the horrible fights and slaughters that were between the Iewes Gentiles and Christians of that Citie as wel against the trueth as with it And therefore in these populous and tumultuous Cities if you did shew some insurrections of the people for their pastors it would doe you no great good Men haue raised tumults in al ages and that doth iustifie rebellion in you no more than Cains sword dipt in his brothers bloud at the first beginning of the world and neuer since drie doth warrant theeues to take mens liues by the high waies side yea rather lesse for they kill to supplie their needes you to reuenge your grifes they vnhorse priuate men you vnthrowe Princes they rifle howses you spoile kingdomes they fly vpon the fact you stand to the defence of it before the whole world Farre from this affection were S. Basil and S. Ambrose as euen now wee saw and Athanasius as farre if you dare trust him on his oth if not you shall shift him neerer by his acts When he saw the people of his Church grudge at the Emperours precept to remoue him from his seat and readie to take weapon in hand hee departed the citie Under Valens the people of that citie likewise resisted and would not suffer any violence to be offered Athanasius by the Captaines vntill the Emperours pleasure were precisely knowen touching Athanasius In so much that the multitude flocking together and a great hurlie burlie rising in the Citie a sedition was feared When the people some daies after was appeased Athanasius by night closely conueigheth himselfe out of the Citie Others saie that foreseeing the rashnes of the multitude and fearing least he should seeme to be the author of that euill which might ensue he hid him selfe all that time in his fathers tumbe Thus when hee might haue beene defended by the people hee would not and because they suffered him not to depart from them by day hee frale from them by night and left his Bishopricke to be disposed by the prince The like did Chrysostome in his troubles For when the people knew of his deposition they brake out into an vprore and would not suffer those that had it in charge from the Emperour to carrie him into banishment Chrysostom fearing least any other crime should bee fastned on him either that he did not obay the Emperour or that he stirred the people to sedition the third day after his depriuation priuilie leaueth his Church and yeeldeth himselfe to be caried into exile So that by S. Chrysostomes iudgement it is first a fault in a Bishop not to obay the Prince next it is an other fault to stirre the people to sedition be the cause neuer so good as Chrysostomes was not badde Phi. Likewise against Valens the Arrian Emperour Petrus successour to Athanasius and brother to S. Basil did seeke to the Pope of Rome for succour as al other afflicted Bishoppes and Catholikes euer did Theo. The Bishop of Rome in those daies was neither so mightie that he could nor wicked that he would assist subiects with armes against their Soueraignes Peter Bishop of Alexandria brought letters from Damasus Bishop of Rome allowing his election and Confirming the same the people vpon that spying their time displaced Lucius an Arrian and receiued Peter their right Bishoppe Phi. And what was this but resistance to the Prince Theo. Resist they might and did but not with armes Phi. Which way then Theo. By refusing his communion disobeying his iurisdiction and withdrawing their duties from him yeelding the same to Peter as to their lawful and true Bishop Phi. Socrates sayth the people taking courage expelled Lucius and set Peter in his place Theo. They might driue him away and make him forsake the Citie though not with armes But whatsoeuer the people did against Lucius in their heate hauing as I noted before vnto you out of the same writer a very sharp and seditious humour and being miserably handled by Lucius as scourged with whippes their flesh torne with hookes and diuersly tormented with fire vnto death the letters of Damasus incited them to no such thing but onely approued the election of Peter Phi. But Peter it shoulde seeme allowed the people in their enterprise for by their tumult he recouered his Bishopricke Theo. You must not imagine rebellions where none are written The people draue Lucius from the See being an intruder an heretike and a murderer other tumult the Storie doth not mention Phi. The Prince had placed Lucius there Theo. The election of Bishops in these dayes belonged to the people and not to the Prince and though Valens by plaine force placed him there yet might the people lawfully reiect him as no Bishoppe and cleaue to Peter their right Pastor Phi. Might they reiect him with armes Theo. I said not so Phi. But so they did Theo. That must you proue we find no such thing in the Storie neither of Socrates nor Sozomene Phi. Socrates sayth they expelled him Theo. But not with armes Phi. Do you thinke hee would yeeld without force Theo. Do you thinke any great force needed for a whole Citie to expell one man But why come you with thoughts when you should bring vs proofes That hee was expelled wee graunt but whether
to Gregorie it is high tyme you begin to awake and remember your selfe that for sixe hundreth yeeres you haue not nor can not shew vs any one example where heretical Prince was deposed or subiect allowed to beare armes against his Soueraigne Which is a sufficient conuiction that Pagans and heretikes were all this while honoured obeyed and endured by the Church of Christ if they were Princes Or if that collection bee not good heare Saint Augustines confession of him that was the very worst of them I meane Iulian the Apostata and learne that they which suffered and obeyed him woulde neuer resist nor rebell against any Iulianus extitit infidelis Imperator nonne extitit Apostata iniquus Idolatra Milites Christiani seruierunt Imperatori infidels Vbi veniebatur ad causam Christi non agnoscebant nisi illum qui in caelo erat Quando volebat vt idola colerent vt thurificarent praeponebant illi Deum Quando autem dicebat producite aciem ite contra illam gentem statim obtemperabant Distinguebant Dominum aeternum a Domino temporali tamen subditi erant propter Dominum aeternum etiam Domino temporali Iulian was an vnbeleeuing Emperour was hee not an Apostata an oppressour and an Idolater Christian souldiers serued that vnbeleeuing Emperor When they came to the cause of Christ they would acknowledge no Lord but him that is heauen When hee woulde haue them to worshippe Idoles and to sacrifice they preferred God before their Prince But when he said goe foorth to fight inuade such a nation they presently obeyed They distinguished their eternall Lorde from their temporall and yet were they subiect euen vnto their temporal Lorde for his sake that was their eternall Lord and master The like testimonie your Law bringeth out of S. Ambrose Iulian the Emperour though hee were an Idolater had yet vnder him Christian souldiers to whom when hee sayd goe fight for the defence of the common-wealth they did obey him but when hee sayde goe fight against the Christians then they regarded the Emperour in heauen before him Phi. The holy Bishoppes might most lawfully and so sometymes they did excommunicate the Arrian Emperours and haue warranted their Catholike subiects to defend themselues by armes against them But they alwayes did not so because they had no meanes by reason of the greater forces of the persecutours As there no question but the Emperours Constantius Valens Iulian and others might haue beene by the Bishoppes excommunicated and deposed and all their people released from their obedience if the Church or Catholiques had had competent forces to haue resisted Theo. Uayne shiftes you haue brought vs many but none vayner than that which here you broche You vndertooke to shewe vs auncient examples that Princes were iudicially deposed by Priestes and impugned with armes by their owne subiectes You bee nowe come to the vttermost pitch of Antiquitie and finding your selfe not able to bee as good as your worde you tell vs that though Bishoppes did it not yet they might most lawfully haue warranted their Catholike subiectes to defend themselues by armes against the Arrian Emperours But sir you were to bring vs their examples what they did not your vants what they might haue done The point we began with was what Bishops in this case might doe You to shew what they might doe promised vs the particulars of auncient ages what they had doone and hauing perused six hundered yeeres after Christ and perceauing no such deede doone you come with a returne at the last that though they did it not yet they might haue doone it whereas we rather collect they might not doe it because they did it not For had it beene most lawful as you say we can proue it most needfull they should haue doone it The blaspheming of Christ the murdering of his saincts the seducing of many thousand soules which things were not only committed by their meanes but also maintained by their power that were suffered to beare and vse the sword for the strengthning and establishing of their error were causes sufficient to moue the Bishops to doe what they lawfully might to preuent these mischifes and saue the Bishops you cannot from the blemish of permitting and increasing the pestilent heresies of Arius and others if they did not what they might in dewtie to withstand and depose those Princes that were the chiefe Patrones of those impieties Phi. There is no question but the Emperours Constantius Valens Iulian and others might haue beene deposed by the Bishops and all their people released from their obedience if the Church or Catholiques had had competent forces to haue resisted Theo. You falsely and wickedly slaunder the Martyrs of Christs church when you auouch they wanted not will but power to resist their Princes The Christians had forces sufficient and many fit opportunities offered them to set those hereticall Emperours besides their Seates and woulde not Constans the West Emperour was of power sufficient to haue repressed Constantius his brother for feare of whom Athanasius was restored to his Bishoprike by Constantius and with whom if the Catholikes of the East would haue but ioyned themselues it had beene most easie for them to haue taken the Scepter from Constantius When Constans was slaine Magnentius the Tyrant surprised all Italie subdued Affrica and Lybia and had Fraunce in subiection and the souldiers of Illyricum erected Betranion against Constantius in which distresse if the Christians would but haue forsaken Constantius and not ventered their liues for him he must haue beene depriued of the West Empire if not of the East also Athanasius being charged that he with others secretly by letters incited this Magnentius to take armes against the Emperour answered as I shewed you before Cast not this suspition O Emperour vpon the whole Church as though such things were written or thought on by Christian men and specially by Bishopes The like occasion was offered the Christians to displace Constantius when Gallus who was both Cesar and next to the Crowne beganne to aduance himselfe to the Empire but they tooke it as you see by Athanasius wordes to be no Christian mans part to thinke on bearing armes against their Emperour though an hereticke Of the Christian souldiers vnder Iulian you hearde S. Augustine say they serued their temporall Lorde though an Idolater and an Apostata not for lacke of force to resist but for respect of their euerlasting Lorde in heauen Otherwise the Christian souldiers had Iulian in his voyage against the Persians farre from home and from helpe and might haue done with him what they woulde and yet they chose rather to spend their liues for him than to lift vp their handes against him and the Christian worlde in his absence stirred not against him but with patience endured his oppression and with silence expected his returne Phi. They were heathen souldiers that were with Iulian in the Persian warres Theo.
right you may conclude hence a iust allegation or a ciuill sedition in the Romanes but no depriuation of Princes by the Pope If by Lewes the thirde you meane Lewes the sonne of Boso for him you may meane and by your indistinct speaking you driue vs to ghesse at your meaning he with violence gate some dominion in Italie putting Berengarius to the worst and by negligence lost not onely that hee gate but his eyes also which hee might haue saued with staying at home mary the doers of it were Berengarius his enimie and the citizens of Verona which betraied him mention of the Pope there is none except you thinke it vnfitte for his holinesse that anie treason shoulde bee wrought without him for that his◠See is so well practised in them Of this Lewes Otho sayth In the yeare of our Lord 905. Lodouike the sonne of Boso getting the Empire expelled Berengarius and hauing the whole kingdome of Italie at his becke dismissing his armie went to Verona with a small traine where being betrayed by the citizens that sent for Berengarius from the place where hee was in exile hee was caught and his eyes pulled out And after that Berengarius helde the kingdom of Italie togither with the Romane Empire So haue wee three Lodouikes ech of them in sundrie writers surnamed Lewes the thirde and not one of them deposed by the Bishop of Rome Henrie the fourth was the first that was troubled with the Popes presumption to depose Princes but hee was so farre from taking it that hee put the Pope besides his cushinne and had him deposed from his triple Crowne not onelie by force but also by iudgement and sentence as good or better than that which the Pope pronounced against him Respect whether you will the cause or the manner of their proceeding eche against other Phi. You crake of this Emperour For that in fine by armes hee droue the saide Pope out of his Sea and placed an Antipape that is to say one so opposite to Christes Vicar as Antichrist shall bee against Christ which by armes and patronage of this wicked Emperour vsurped and occupied the Apostolike throne against the true Pope Gregorie the seuenth Theo. We crake not of Princes as you doe of Popes neither do we defend them in open wickednes as you doe Popes in their pestilent disorders and outrages only we say neither your holy father with his proude claime nor you with your smoothe tongues may take from Princes their Crownes without warrant from God of whome they haue their power and by whome they are exalted to their Royall dignitie And therefore if you will play the proctour for Pope Hildebrande in that attempt of his to depriue Henry the fourth leaue wastful woords and spiteful speach and go to the matter Scoffes and taunts are soone cast and recast without any paynes or praise Phi. Because this good and notable Pope was not able in fine to resist the Emperours forces the which Emperour as all the histories of that tyme recorde was a most wicked sacrilegious simoniacal and hereticall person the aduersaries of Gods Church doe triumph as the Libeller here doth ouer the blessed man as Herode might haue done ouer Iohn Baptist whose admonition was taken in so euill grè that it cost him his life as also the executing of the Churches sentence which is Gods hath doone to many a Prophet and Bishop in the worlde Theo. If to call Gregorie the seuenth Hildebrand which was his proper name and whereof neither hee nor you shoulde in reason bee ashamed be a note of rebellious heretiques as you terme them what is it for you to call a Prince on whom by Gods Lawe you are forbidden to rayle a most wicked sacrilegious simoniacall and hereticall person What is it to say that al the stories of that time record the same and to produce none As for Iohn Baptise you may vse his name when you follow his workes Herode was an incestuous Tyrant yet did not Iohn Baptist take the scepter from him nor arme his subiects against him but warned him of the breach of Gods Lawe which hee wilfully committed and the punishment which would ensue at Gods handes farther practices against Herode Iohn Baptist had none and therefore you might as well haue yoked Belial with Christ as Hildebrand with Iohn Baptist. But you must be suffered when other things faile you to haue glorious words which is a right Herodian affection Phi. By the euent of things whosoeuer measureth the right of cause will make a good religion and a good defence of the execution of iustice For so most tyrants might bee iustified for a tyme against all the Saintes of God This Gregorie say they was in fine banished by the Emperour And so was Saint Chrysostome by Arcadius and Eudoxia and dyed in banishment as Gregorie the seuenth did yet they were but homely Christians that woulde iustifie the Emperours and condemne S. Chrysostome Theo. Wee measure not the right of causes neither by the sequele nor successe of thinges for then the Saintes of GOD from the first beginning of the worlde shoulde haue had an euill cause since their successe hath alwayes beene to loose their liues for bearing witnes vnto the trueth Wee make it no reason that Hildebrandes cause was euill because in the ende hee was banished Wee all this while haue stoode with you on this point that neither Hildebrand nor any other Pope had or hath right to depose Princes Your commendation of Hildebrand and accusation of Henry the fourth if both were true are litle to this purpose vnlesse you will reason thus the Pope was a good man and the Prince an euill Ergo the Pope might depose the Prince which were a very rediculous conclusion Phi. The Popes right to depose Princes wee haue prooued before Theo. Not yet that wee see Your authorities came very short of it your examples shorter Some shiftes and sophismes you haue here and there offered vs but so weake that children woulde hardly bee deceiued by them Those you thought being destitute of other helpes to strengthen with examples and hauing searched all the corners you coulde for a thousande yeeres after Christ you finde not one till you come to Gregorie the seuenth who did attempt it but coulde not effect it and lost his Popedome for enterprising it And here you slip from the right of the cause to the praise of the Person which is vtterly impertinent to this purpose For what trowe you is euery thing good that good men doe May you not so commende any vice What sinne is there but some good man otherwise hath fallen into If to measure thinges by their euents bee no sure way to iudge rightly of them what is it to alleage no better grounde for the Deposition of Princes than the bolde attempt of the Bishoppe of Rome Were the Person commended not by the assentation of his
adherents but by the confession of his aduersaries that proueth not his fact to bee good or his enterprise lawfull We must balance thinges by the Lawes of God and not by the fansies and affections of men and yet touching the Person if the syncerest of your own side may bee trusted I see no such cause to commend him Phi. This Pope whome they specially hate because as it may be thought he was the first man that authentically condemned the Berengarians heresie and in open disputation refuted it though certaine of the said Emperours flatterers and enemies of the Sea Apostolike as the fashion of our heretiques is at this day wrote slaunderous libels against him yet was hee a very notable good man and learned and did suffer whatsoeuer hee did suffer for meere iustice in that hee did godly honorably and by the dutie of his Pastorship whatsoeuer hee did against the said Emperour whereof we could alleage all the best writers of those dayes or neere that tyme but that wee should be tedious Theo. Whatsoeuer Berengarius heresie was the recantation which your holy Father with his learned aduise prescribed him is a very wicked and palpable error If Hildebrand were the author of that condemnation we enuie not his praise A lewder or grosser follie was neuer vttered with tongue No maruaile to see you so forward in affirming that Gregorie the 7. was a very notable good man and learned and did suffer whatsoeuer he did suffer for meere iustice and did Godly and honourablie and by the dewtie of his Pastorship whatsoeuer hee did against the Emperour he was the first Pope that euer serued or fitted your rebelling humour Your case and his are all one and therefore vnlesse you should praise him you must dispraise your owne doings which you will not you be so farre entered into these Italian policies and perceiue them to bee so profitable for your Rhemish monarchie But Sirs if you were asked vnder benedicite whether S. Peter did better in submitting him selfe to Nero and charging al others to do the like or Pope Hildebrand in taking the crown from Henry the fourth and dischargeing his subiects which would you preferre The mild and Christian submission of Peter suffering death at Neroes hands or the disdainful and arrogant stomacke of Gregorie the seuenth making the Emperour with his Queene and young Prince in extreme frost and snowe waite his leisure three dayes barefoted and in woollen at the gates of Canusium whiles himselfe was warme in a Ladies chamber and notwithstanding this rare example of humilitie in a Prince practising a generall reuolt of his Nobles and people from him and causing an other to be chosen in his place and licencing his owne subiects seruants and sonnes to beare armes against him and filling the Christian world with vnnaturall and parricidial warres and bloudshed I knowe you dare not in plaine termes disgrace Sainct Peter but in deedes euident to the eyes of all men you take part with Pope Hildebrand against Sainct Peter extolling and praising him for a very notable good Pope that first gaue this detestable and damnable aduenture He did suffer you say whatsoeuer he did suffer for meere Iustice. It was madde meere Iustice that the Church of Christ for a thousand yeres would not bee so much as acquainted with and a madder imagination of yours that all that refused to bee partakers of Hildebrands wickednesse were flatterers to the Emperour and enimies to the See Apostolike farre better cause haue wee to say that they which conspired with the Pope against their Prince vppon so great submission as Christendome hath not seene the like were DESPISERS OF GOVERNMENT RESISTERS OF POWER and consequently disobeiers of Christ and woorse than hierlings of Antichrist And if you may shake them off that liued in the same age and wrate of things they sawe with their eyes and heard with their eares who smoothed not the vices of men but defended the ordinance of GOD What should bind vs to regard the corrupt and partiall iudgementes of those that came some hundreds after and knew no more of the certaintie of those actions than we do at this instant and were withall so wedded to the Sea of Rome that in respect thereof they did resist as you doe now both the power of man and the trueth of God Phi. We haue for Gregorie the seuenth the graue testimonie of Baptista Fulgosius a noble and learned man that was Duke of Genua aboue an hundred yeeres past which wee shall not let to set downe as wee find it in the Latine Constantissimus habitus est Gregorius septimus Pontifex qui quòd Henricum tertium Imperatorem propter aperta nimis Symoniae crimina pro Pastorali officio reprehendebat grauibus ab eo iniurijs affectus est Itaque iniuriarum magnitudine compulsus Henricum Gregorius vt haereticum Imperij honore priuauit Cum autem Henricus solut ecclesiastica censura non emendatione vitae sed armis quaereret alium creari Pontificem enixus capta vrbe obsidere Gregorium caepit Quae mala cum Gregorius pateretur nunquā tamen a iusto proposito dimoueri potuit That is Gregorie the seuenth was notable for his constancie who for that according to his Pastorall charge hee had admonished Henrie the third Emperour to leaue his knowen impietie of Symonie was by manifold intolerable iniuries vexed by the same Emperour and by the greatnes of his wickednes was compelled to depriue him as an heretique of his Imperiall dignitie But Henry seeking not by amendment of his life but by armes to bee absolued from the censure hee went about to set vp a newe Pope and beseeged the Citie of Rome and brought the Pope into great distresse In all which miseries Gregorie coulde neuer bee remoued from his iust purpose So hee writeth of the parties both And of the horrible crimes for which the Emperour was most iustly in the sight of all good men deposed Theo. Truth dependeth not vpon nobilitie but sinceritie Noble men haue their affections and ouersightes in writing as well as others Baptista Fulgosius liued foure hundreth yeeres after Gregorie the seuenth and had no better intelligence of the cause than wee haue at this day In his banishment hee collected certaine examples out of such bookes as came to his handes to spend the tyme ease his miserie but hee tooke not vppon him to iudge between your stories which were credible and which not All that hee sayth of Gregorie the seuenth is Constantissimus habitus est he was counted very constant could neuer be remoued from the purpose which he thought to be iust the rest is a report of the fact no debating of the cause And had this exiled Person giuen greater commendation to Gregorie than hee doeth euery Noble mans fansie that is or hath beene these fiue hundreth yeeres in Christendome must not appoint what power
impugned at one tyme. Phi. Hee impugned Concubinaries and Symonists Theo. So your Cloysterers called such as were maried and preferred by the Prince and for that cause they tooke stitch with the Pope against the Prince and highly commended Hildebrand as the first begynner of ecclesiasticall puritie and libertie But in deede it was but a quarrell sought out by the Pope vnder a faire pretence to tread downe Princes and exalt himselfe He could beare no such sway as he woulde in the Church so long as the Bishops did depend on the Prince and not on the Pope For by their helpe the Prince often tymes not only crossed but depriued the Pope if hee waxed vnruly or ouer lustie This was it that Hildebrande could not digest Lighting therefore on a Prince that was young and somewhat lasciuious and perceiuing the Nobles of his Realme to dislike and disdaine one an other and seeing the Normanes in Italie able to withstande the Emperours force and the Saxons in Germanie willing to cast off the Yoke as they thought of bondage and getting into such fauour with Mathilda a great mightie Ladie of Italie that shee should not bee out of his sight but as a very friend of Gregories sayth Pontificis Lateri comes indiuidua adhaerebat eumque miro colebat affectu shee cleaued to the Popes side as his continuall companion and loued him exceedingly Hildebrande hauing these oportunities gaue the aduenture both to pull all spirituall liuings out of the Princes gift that the Clergie might depend on him and not on their Prince and to shewe him-selfe the censurer and deposer of Kinges and Emperours if they withstoode him And for that cause hee first decreed it to bee Symonie to take any spirituall lyuing at a lay mans handes and in the same Synode did excommunicate as well the giuers as the takers were they Dukes Princes or Kinges which hee knewe the Emperour neither coulde nor woulde endure Not long after hee receiued diuers and sundrie suggestions against the King from the Saxons who sought by armes what they coulde to preuaile against the Prince and when that succeeded not fell to slaundering and accusing their king for answere whereto the Pope summoned the King to appeare at Rome and prefixed him a day to cleare him-selfe of those crimes And when the king neither would loose his right in bestowing his Bishoprickes and Benefices as he sawe cause and as his progenitours before him had doone and refused to come in Person to answere the complaints of rebels against him but sent his Agents to refell their obiections the Pope discouering the malice and pride which till that tyme hee concealed tooke the Princes messengers and cast them in Prison and caused them to bee caried about the Citie as gazing stockes and in his Synode depriued the Emperour both of the communion of the faythfull and of his Crowne and kingdome also and to his dying day would not bee remoued from his purpose Philand These bee your vaine collections which wee regarde not Theo. I looke not you shoulde regarde mine but if your owne writers which haue laboured in this matter finde the report which I make to bee true you may not so lightly neglect them Auentinus a man addicted to your religion not to ours exactly and vprightly weighing the partes and proofes of this cause obserueth the same that I doe and a great deale more Philand Auentinus was too fauourable to the Germanes his Countriemen Theop. Any writer may bee touched in that sort with fauour or affection If you reiect men of the same profession with you because they differ in iudgement from you much more is it lawfull for vs in this contention betweene the Prince and the Pope to refuse such as were altogether inclined and deuoted to the See of Rome If you trust not Auentine because hee was a Germane why should we trust those Monkes and Bishoppes that were ioyned in faction with Hildebrand against the king Philand Will you trust none but your seluee Theoph. You doe not so much as trust your selues wee alleage none but your owne men in this case and you trust them not Philand Wee giue you some cause why wee trust them not Theoph. None but this that you like them not your other exceptions bee very friuolous If some were Germanes and fauoured the Prince others were Italians and flattered the Pope You trust not the one nor wee the other let therefore the sticklers of both sides alone and examine the doers them-selues I hope you will beleeue Gregories woordes and not distrust him as you doe the rest Philand He wil not belie him-selfe Theo. Then touching the causes of Henries excommunication the Pope himselfe maketh this report to the Princes of Germanie Pro hijs illum causis primum videlicet quod ab eorum communione qui pro sacrilegio reatu simoniaca haeresis excommunicati sunt se abstiuere noluit deinde quod pro criminosis actibus paenitentiam non dico suscipere sed nec promittere voluit Synodali iudicio eum excommunicauimus For these causes to witte first for that he would not forbeare their companie which were excommunicated for the sacrilegious and hereticall guylt of Symonie next for that hee was so farre from taking any penance at our handes for his criminall actes that he would promise none we by a Synodal sentence did excommunicate him Here bee the two causes which the Pope pretended for his excommunicatiō and deposition of the prince partaking with Symonists and refusall of iudgement penance at his hands Philand Were not Symonie and obstinacie two great crimes Theoph. Your holy father did call that Symonie which was none Philand The Prince did sell Bishoprickes and Benefices Theoph. So your Monkes affirme but they lie the more The Pope him-selfe you see doeth not charge him with selling Bishoprickes or benefices but with retaining their societie that did Lambertus that lyued in that tyme and wholy fauoured Gregorie confesseth that by many examples the Prince shewed howe much hee detested the corruption and ambition of Prelates and Abbates seeking preferment by money and flatterie When the Abbay of Fulde was voide and the King with his Nobles conferring about the choice of a newe the Abbates and Monkes sayth Lambertus as it had beene at a solemne game began to offer some golden mountains other great booties out of the lands of the Abbay and some more seruices to the common-wealth than accustomed and in offering they kept neither meane nor modestie horum impudentiam rex vehementissimé vt dignum erat detestatus the king most vehemently detesting their impudencie as it became him when hee was importuned with their prayers and offers on the suddaine ledde with a diuine spirite as men thought called one Ruzelin a Monke that stoode before him which came to the court about the busines of his house at the commaundement of the Abbate and neuer dreampt of any
the Popes ayde with excoÌ„munications and rebellions that Frederike beganne to hearken to a peace and William of Sicilie hauing no children maried his sister to the Emperours sonne called afterward Henrie the sixt and father to this Frederike that wee speake of as willing the kingdome shoulde returne to the Emperours line who otherwise layd a chalenge to it When William of Sicilie was dead Henrie the sixt by maine force of armes subdued Sicilie and was receiued into Falernum the chiefe towne of Sicilie as a conquerour So that Frederike the second had a double right to the kingdome of Sicilie either as heire to his vncle in which case the Popes pension was not extinguished or els as Emperour by reason his Father did recouer it by conquest reunite it to the Empire Either of these tytles is sufficient to defend his doings in Sicilie As Emperour hee might claime it afore the Pope from the Pope for so did Conrade the third and Otho the fourth As king of Sicilie hee was to pay but a pension not to be the Popes Uasal and if the Pope should offer him any wrong he might lawfully repell force by force and punish the people of the land that would not obey him as their king assist him to hold his owne The Popes allegation therefore against Frederike for compelling the subiects of Sicilie to continue their obedience notwithstanding the Popes interdict is very friuolous Frederike herein did no more than any Prince might and would doe in the like state And graunt he had somewhat abused the kingdome of Sicilie which he did not is that a cause to remoue him from the Empire Phi. The other three be the principall causes Theo. Two of them namely heresie and periurie be starke false the thirde was arrogance in the Pope to make it sacrilege to touch a Cardinall not wickednes in the Prince to take them as enemies that labored to defeat him of his Crowne Phi. You woulde take the Princes part wee see were his cause neuer so euill Theo. You doe take the Popes part wee see though the sentence hee gaue bee neither agreeable to Gods Law nor mans Lawe nor his owne Canons Phi. Howe proue you that Theo. Nay it is hie tyme for you to come forth with your proofes or els wise men wil discerne in Innocentius the image of Antichrist proudly iudging in his Consistorie without regarde of God or man A professed aduersarie to sit iudge alone in his owne quarrel and for causes apparently false or friuolous to proceede to the depriuation of a Prince yea the greatest Prince in Christendome and in right his Soueraigne Lord and master neither admitting his proxie nor hearing what exceptions he could take to his accusers but appointing him to come in Person out of his owne Realme into an other princes Dominion and to pronounce him guiltie of all that was obiected being neither present nor heard for that he refused to put his life into his enemies handes If this bee iustice the wild Irish and Sauage Indians that know not what belongeth to cyuil societie or humane reason may be iudges as well as the Pope Phi. If the crimes were notorious and the Prince refused iudgement why should not the Pope proceede against him in his wilful absence Theo. The prince sent to shew the reason of his absence his atturnees to deale for him as farre as should be needful but that the Pope would not expect their coÌ„ming no not the space of three daies at the petition of most of the Nobles Prelates that were in his councel The crunes pretended to be notorious were conceiued in great words as periurie sacrilege heresie tyrannie but the facts coÌ„mitted by Frederike as breaking peace with the Pope that tooke part in the field with his rebels against him deteyning the Cardinals that went to work his deposition and fought with his fleete constraining his subiects in Sicilie to acknowledge him for their king were temporal priuate quarrels directly concerning the Popes atteÌ„pts against the Prince and the Princes right to defend himself which your holy father of his accustomed presumptioÌ„ called periury sacrilege tyrannie being the aduerse part gaue iudgement in his own cause as liked best his own displeased greeued stomack Now how this could stand with the prescription of diuine or moderation of humane lawes we would gladly learn Phi. Your refuge wil be to impugne the Popes power which was theÌ„ confessed though the hastynes of his censure were somwhat misliked The. By whom was it confessed Phi. By al men euen by Frederike himselfe Theo. You must make truer reports before you giue true iudgements Frederike in his epistle to the king of Fraunce shewing this sentence by all lawes to be voide alleageth that though the Bishop of Rome had full power in spiritual things so as he might bind or loose sinners whatsoeuer yet it is no where read that the Pope by the warrant of gods or mans law may remoue the Empire when he list or iudge temporally of kings princes to depriue them of their crownes The cities people of Italie by that opeÌ„ eger faction of Guelfs Gibelines which dured euen to our age shewed how many there were that tooke with the Prince against the Pope notwithstanding the Popes excommunications depriuations which you would so faine vphold at this day This faction of Guelfs ayding the Pope against the prince and Gibelines standing with the prince against the Pope grew so general sayth Nauclerus that no citie no towne no people remained free from that infectionâ— Citie hath waged warre with Citie prouince with prouince One halfe of the people with the other from that time to this our age for no cause else but for this faction some helping their prince against the Pope some the Pope against their prince For 200. yeres vpward saith Blondus euen to these our times they pursued eche other with such rage vnder these vnluckie names that the Italians wrought greater mischief among theÌ„selues than before they suffered at the hands of barbarous nations Towne against towne Countrie against Countrie the people of eche place diuided among them-selues fought together for no cause but for this dissention and their victories had no ende nor meane but bloodshed and vtter subuersion neither onely neighbours and cohabitants but those that dwelt fiue hundreth miles asunder euen the poorer sort and beggars as wel as rich and mightie men when they met eche other coÌ„mitted al crueltie one side on the other This flame your holy father kindled in his owne Coâ—ntrie with his rash proceeding against the Emperour so wide it skattered so loÌ„g it endured so fiercely it raged amoÌ„gst your own Deuotionists and yet you would make the worlde beleeue the Popes power to depriue princes was neuer doubted of but in these our dayes and by men of our side What Germanie thought of
othe you haue taken to the Empeire can yeeld to them and they intend to send oratours to the Pope and to the Colledge of Cardinals to request them to cease from this course If they refuse your Princes are resolued to meete at Rens vpon Rhene there to deliberate with you for the farther resisting of these practises Phi. If these electors were so earnest for Lodouik how hapned they choose Charles the fourth against him Theo. The Pope wan the Duke of Saxonie with monie as Conrade of Maidenburge craketh and so with a newe Archbishoppe of Cullen whome the Pope intruded the former incumbent yet liuing Charles sonne to the king of Bohemia and nephew to the Archbishop of Treuers was chosen who were easily induced to consent to the election of one so neere them in blood but neither would the Princes of Germanie receiue him nor durst hee medle with the Empire so long as Lodouike liued For when Ludouik called the Nobles togither vpoÌ„ the choice of Charles asked theÌ„ whether of the twaine they would haue to beare rule ouer them The whole assemblie without any staie cried out that Lodouike was their Soueraigne and their Emperour appointed by God and that they woulde continue in his obedieÌ„ce And there detesting the persidiousnes of those few that made this new choise defieng Charls in the worst words they could giue with great zeale they renewed their oth to Lodouike and promised him their helpe to reuenge that wickednes And so Charles hated of all the Germanes for the breach of his oth to Lodouike and no where receiued as Emperour was conueied into Bohemia Neither durst he come out of his hoale or take the gouernment vpon him so long as Ludouike liued Nauclerus likewise confesseth that Ludouike gathering the imperiall cities togither at Spires fouÌ„d them very earnest on his side so that none of the cities of Rhene Sueuia or Franconia any whit esteemed the new election of Charles or the Popes processe In this state they stood defending their Prince and neglecting the Pope till the death of Ludouike who being well in health and verie pleasaunt at a feast where he met the Dutchesse of Austria as soone as he drank of the cuppe which the Dutchesse reached him presently felt himselfe sicke as Cuspinian sayeth feeling a griping at his hart suspected himselfe to be poisoned and getting on his horse to ride abroade was stroken with a palsie and fell from his horse and gaue vp the Ghost After his death the Bishop of Mentz the Marquesse of Brandenburge the Palatine of Rhene with the Duke of Saxonie that newly succeded coÌ„cluding the choice of Charles to be voide sent a solemn message to Edward the third king of England inuiting him to take the Empire But hee with thankes refused it Not long after they choose Gunter who the same yeare was poysoned with a potion his Physition also dying within three dayes whom the king commaunded to drinke before him Phi. This was not the Popes doing Theo. Whose doing it was we know not but thus they were made awaie that withstood the Pope And so was king Iohn of his Land vppon whom your holy father and his religious adhereÌ„ts shewed the fulnes of your Romish deuises You forced a disordered election vpon him and when he would not like it you depriued him of his crowne and offered the same to the king of France and to his heyres for euer with full remission of his and all their sinnes that would take weapon in hande to driue king Iohn from his Realme And after you had assembled a mightie force against him you counselled him rather to resigne his crowne into y Popes handes and to take it againe of him in farme than with fire and sword to be chased out of his land and loose both his kingdom and his life And by this cunning when you had gotten the kings graunt to subiect himselfe and his crowne to the church of Rome you restrained him cursed the Frenche kinges sonne souldiers whom your selues had incited to this pray for not leauing off when you willed them and loosing all their labour and charges when you were once seased of that you sought for In the end when you saw him so much in the Popes fauour that he preuailed against his Barons and Bishops as he would himselfe you sent him packing with poyson which a Monk tempered for him in the Abbeie of Swinesteade not farre from Lincolne Phi. That he was poysoned is not true as also that Stephen LanghtoÌ„s election to the See of Canterburie was disordered and as for the rest I see no cause why you should mislike Theo. That he was poysoned is witnessed by Caxton Hemingfoord and others Matthew Paris and Matthew of Westminster in fauour of the Monk that did it themselues being Monkes say he surfited with eating Peaches and drinking sweet wine which also the rest affirm but those they auouch were poisoned Polydor bringeth both reportes as finding them both written There are saith hee which write that a Monke of Swinestead prouoked with certaine wordes which king Iohn spake tempered poyson with wine and dranke thereof himselfe before the king to get him to doe the like and so they both departed this life almost at one instaÌ„t Of Stephen Langhtons election to the See of Canterburie we need no better witnes than yâ— Monke of S. Albons that was then aliue had no fansie to king Iohn as may â—e seene by his writings Phi. Will you stand to his opinion in this cause Theo. Historiographers vse to declare what was doone not to decide what was wel or euill done I take the fact as he reporteth it let the reader be iudge of the cause Some of the Monks of Canterburie choose their Subprior to be Archbishop in the night without any solemne forme without the kinges consent and without the greater part of the conuent the rest choose the Bishoppe of Norwich in the day time the king being there and consenting to their election which was celebrated before sufficieÌ„t witnesses Both parts presenting their electes to the Bishop of Rome after long discussing the Pope pronounced either election to bee voide and disabled both the contendours to bee chosen to that See And knowing what good an Archbishop might doe him in furthering his collections exactions in this Land he commanded the Monks there present vpon paine of excommunication to make choice of Stephen LaÌ„ghton before they departed the place And when the Monks answered they could not celebrate an electioÌ„ that would be canonical without the kings coÌ„sent the rest of their couent the Pope catching the word out of their mouthes said know ye that in elections made here with vs the assent of Princes is not wont to be expected Wherfore in vertue of your obedience vnder the daÌ„ger of our curse we coÌ„mand you to choose him whom
citation he refused to come knowing his own wickednes sought to defend himself with armes Alas saith this writer being one of your owne friendes whither is that auncient sanctitie of the Romane Bishoppes vanished whither is that clearnesse of conscience gone which neglecting the threats of Princes built the church not with armes but with the beames of their vertues They refused not Councels but rather frequenting them cleared themselues from such things as they were charged with in full assemblies of their mother the church Behold Iulius who is taken to be the sheepheard giueth no eare to the coÌ„plaint of his sheepe but killeth the weake ones and hee that with his owne blood should purchase them peace doeth what hee can with his curses to increase their trouble And getting the Spaniardes and Venecians to vpholde him sheddeth not teares with Ambrose but displaieth his banners with Iulian whose name he beareth against the church All the Germane Emperours that were depriued by the Pope you haue recited Others perhaps were blasted with his excommunications as Henrie the fifth or not agnised by him for some dislike in their elections as Philip of Sueuia and at his first entraunce Albert of Austria or busied with continuall warres in which the Pope had an oare as Conrade the thirde but iudicially deposed they were not Phi. Philip of Sueuia Otho the fourth that was chosen against him were both deposed by the Pope Theo. Otho the 4. the same which you cal Otho the fifth was rashly aduaunced by the Pope against Philip and as rashly displaced after the death of Philip the right of the Empire being al that while in Friderike the seconde whom the Princes of Almanie by the procurement of Henrie the sixt had chosen to bee their king lying in his cradle and sworne fealtie vnto him and testieth so much vnder their handes and seales to the Emperour his father After whose death when the Princes forgetting their act and oth began to treate of a new election Philip Frederikes vncle fearing least a straunger should be thrust in to the ruine of him-selfe and his nephewe sought to keepe the Empire in his handes during his life or till Frederik came to age This Innocentius the 3. would not suffer but vpbraiding him with the crueltie which his brother father had shewed heaping many absurd some false things against him in his Epistle to Berthold Duke of Zaringia stood on friuolous exceptions to hinder him obiected that he was excoÌ„municated by Celestinus his predecessor whiles he was gouernour in Tuscia yea so great was his malice that he protesteth he wold either take the emperial diademe from Philip or Philip should take the triple crown from him In this rage the Pope caused first Berthold of Zaringia to be chosen king of the Germanes and when he was too weake to incounter Philip he gate Otho the fifth to bee set vp against him whom Philip so long as he liued draue to the wall but being traiterously slaine in his chamber by one that would haue maried his daughter he left Otho in full possession of the Empire in which he continued no long time For two yeares after the Pope fell into sorer hatred of him than euer he had of Philip and after excommunication and depriuation to spite him delt with the Princes of Germany to remember their choice made of Frederike the second when he was but yong and their oth past vnder their seales to Henrie the sixt for the ratifieng of that election and so by the helpe of the French king gate the Germanes to forsake Otho and sticke to Frederike their right and naturall Prince whome in the ende hee pursued with greater disdaine than any of the former in so much that in three and twentie yeares after Frideriks death the Empire was not setled in any lawfull successour The fruites of these stirres as your owne friendes confesse were impietie and all kinde of iniquitie in the Priestes and people flatterie periurie and conspiracie in the Nobles briberie diuision and vnconstancie in the electours onely the Pope vsed them as meanes to increase his wealth augment his pride and procure his ease Then sayeth Vrspergensis beganne euils to bee multiplied on the earth For there sprang discordes deceites treacheries treasons to the destroying and murdering of ech other The spoyling sacking wasting and burning of Countries seditions warres and rapines were openly allowed in so much that euerie man now breaketh his oth and giueth himselfe to these sinnefull mischiefs yea the Priestes are as bad as the people The Princes and Barons of the Land learning the Diuels Art care for no othes violate their faith and confounde all right sometimes forsaking Philip and cleaâ—ing to Otho somtimes contrarie Vpon these tumultes it came to passe that there was skant anie Bishoprike ecclesiasticall dignitie or parish Church which was not litigious and the cause caried to Rome but not with an emptie hande Which made the Abbate then liuing and seeing the whole order of their doinges to crie out Reioyce our mother Rome because the windowes of earthly treasures are opened that euen streames and heapes of mony in great abundaunce may flow vnto thee Be glad for the wickednes of the sons of men thou art well recompensed for their foule enormities Take delight in discord thy best assistant which is issued from the bottomlesse pit to increase thy gaine Thou hast that which thou didst alwaies thirst for sing this song that by the malice of men not any religion of thine thou hast conquered the worlde Neither deuotion nor good conscience draw men to thee but manifold sins and strifes wherein mony beareth the sway And because the Pope would be sure the Emperour should not trouble nor interrupt his excessiue gaine nor pride he would not suffer Charles the fourth to be crowned but on this condition that he neither stay at Rome nor in Italie which Petrarke a man of that time pretily gibeth at All power is impacient to beare an equall whereof if we had not ancient presidents enough I feare our age hath giuen vs a late example and that the Bishop of Rome hath forbidden the Emperour of Rome to abide at Rome which as they say he hath done and not only looketh but commandeth the prince should be content with the bare crowne and title of the Empire and whome hee permitteth to be called Ruler by no meanes will he suffer him to rule And writing to the Emperour him-selfe With a promise I knowe not how and with an oth as it were with a strong wall or high hill you are prohibited to haue accesse to the citie of Rome What pride is this that the Romane prince the author of publike libertie should be depriued of al liberty and that he should not be his owne whose by right all thinges should be Mary the Pope the prince were wel met
vt Deorum vestrorum partes forsitan adoratis Crosses wee neyther worship nor wish for you that dedicate woodden Gods you happily adore woodden crosses as partes of your Gods But what neede I farther refell that councell as not catholike which was presently reiected and pithily confuted by the Bishoppes and churches of the West whose labours are extant at this day brought to light by men of your owne religion and saued from the moothes which you ment should consume them Thither wee sende you there you shall finde both your adoration of images disclaimed as vncatholike and the reasons and authorities of your second Nicene councell throughly skanned and scattered almost 800. yeares before our time Phi. That booke we receiue not as thinking it to be rather some late forgerie of yours than a monument of that antiquitie Theo. If you receiue not the books that were safe in your own keeping and published by your neerest friends howe should we trust the corruptions that are framed to your purposes and no where fouÌ„d but in your own libraries Phi. Since you distrust our writteÌ„ records why do you not beleeue the faithful report of the church which is the pillour of truth can not be corrupted The. Nay since forgeries be so rise that no father is free from them so grosse that euery child may discerne theÌ„ why do not you beleeue the report of God himselfe the founder and builder of the church and that witnessed in his word of which there is no suspition and against the which there is no exception Phi. As though we did not Theo. Then for adoration of images which you defend shew what presideÌ„t you haue in the word of God Phi. We neede not Theo. We know you cannot Phi. And I reply that we neede not The. Doth it concerne the christian faith and Catholike religion which the godly must professe or no Phi. It doeth Theo. Then must you shew some authority for it in the sacred scriptures or else they must repel it as impious Phi. We haue it by tradition from the Apostles Theo. You would haue wrested so much out of S. Basill but that your cunning failed you Phi. From them we had it Theo. Wee say you had no such thing from them and further we adde that if it be a matter of doctrine beliefe as you make it you must haue it testified in their writinges and not concealed among their traditions Phi. No Sir we beleeue many thinges whereof this is one that are not written but were deliuered vs by secrete succession Theo. The greater is your sinne and the vnsounder is your Creede In matters of faith you should beleeue nothing but that which is expressely warranted by the scriptures And therefore in this and other points of your Romish deuotion now brought to triall if you want the foundation of true faith and religion in vaine do you seeke to make a shew of catholicisme with such patches pamslets as Monks Friers haue forged colored with the names of fathers The catholike church of Christ neuer receiued nor beleeued any point of faith vppon tradition without the Scriptures Phi. We haue to the contrary plaine Scriptures al the fathers most euident reasons that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing at all Theo. Wee knowe you can bragge but you haue neither Scripture father nor reason to impugne that which we affirme Phi. For traditions we haue Theo. Tradition is any thing that hath beene deliuered or taught by word or mouth or by writing touching the groundes of faith or circumstances and ceremonies of christian Religion And therefore when you muster the fathers to disproue the scriptures and to establish an vnwritten faith vnder the credit of traditions you corrupt the writers and abuse the readers Phi. How can we doe that when wee bring you the very words of the Authors themselues Theo. Hâ—w can you choose but doe it when you force the fathers to speake against themselues Phi. Do wee Theo. Your Rhemish translators perceiuing the weight of their whole cause to lie on this haue marshalled nine fathers in a ranke namely S. Chrysostom S. Basill S. Hierom S. Augustine S. Epiphanius S. Ireneus S. Tertullian S. Cyprian and Origen but to what purpose can you tell Phi. To proue that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing Theo. Beleeue them as articles of our faith or exercises of our profession Phi. Why make you that distinction Theo. Because the very same fathers that say traditions must bee receiued besides the Scriptures auouch likewise as I before haue shewed that no matter of faith or of any moment to saluation must be receiued or beleeued without scriptures Now choose whether you will graunt a flat contradiction in them or conclude with vs ergo the traditions which they meane bee no partes nor pointes of the christian faith And so these nine fathers on whose credits you thought to plant your late found faith hold nothing with you but rather against you Phi. How make you that appeare Theo. Uiew them once more Wee haue their plaine confession that all things necessary to saluation are comprised in the scriptures You produce them to witnes that your traditions bee not comprised in the scriptures Ergo by your own deponents we conclude that your traditioÌ„s be neither necessary to saluation nor points of the catholik faith without which we can not be saued Looke well to this issue they must either dissent from your religion or from themselues Phi. Your maior is not yet proued Theo. Yes with firm surer authorities than those be which you bring let the places be skanned which I before rehearsed the matter left to the iudgement of the reader Or if you be loath to looke so far back examine shortly thâ—se that follow The holy Scriptures inspired from heauen are sufficient for all instruction of truth sayth Athanasius The Gospell saith Chrysostom containeth al things whatsoeuer is requisite for saluation al that is fully laid downe in the Scriptures In the two Testaments sayth Cyril euery word or thing that pertaineth to God may be required discussed SufficieÌ„t to vs for saluatioÌ„ is the truth of Gods precepts saith Ambrose And Augustin There were chosen to be written such things as seemed to the holy ghost sufficient for the saluation of the faithfull Vincentius Lirinensis whoÌ„ you greatly boast of but without all cause agreeth with the rest that The Canon of the Scripture is perfect sufficient more thaÌ„ sufficient to al things And againe Not that saith he The canon alone is not sufficient for al things as it were taking great heed least he should seeme to deny the fulnes of the scriptures which you purposely impugne vnder a colour of catholicisme by his writings Now cite not only nine but nines kore fathers if you wil for traditions the more you stirre the worse you
Authoritie to witnesse the same For example the worshipping and adoring of Christes Image with diuine honour concluded in your Schooles and practised in your churches is it not a wicked and blasphemous inuention of your owne against all Synodes and Fathers Greeke and Latine olde and newe that euer assembled or taught in the church of God besides your selues The seconde Nicene Councell which first beganne that pernicious pastime of saluting and kissing Images did they not in plaine wordes condemne this errour of yours when they saide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vni Deo tribuimus diuine honour wee giue to God alone and not to images And againe I receiue and imbrace reuerent images but the adoration which is doone with diuine honor called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I reserue to the supersubstantiall and quickning Trinity onely and to no image Ionas Bishop of Orleans that wrote against Claudius Bishop of Turin in the defence of images 50. yeares after the second Nicene councell did hee not mightily detest your adoration of images as a most heinous errour and was not the whole church of Fraunce by his report of the same minde with him Suffer saith he the images of the Sainctes the histories of holy actions to be painted in the church not that they shold be worshipped but that they may be an ornament to the place and bring the simple to the remembraunce of thinges past Creaturam verò adorari etque aliquid diuinae seruitutis impendi pro nefas ducimus huiúsque scelâ—ris patratorem detestandum anathematizandum libera voce proclamamus But that any creature or Image should be adored or haue any part of diuine honour wee count it a wickednesse and with open voice proclaime the committer of that impiety worthy to bee detested and accursed And prouing by manifold authorities of scriptures and fathers that neither image neither any thing made with handes should be adored he addeth That which you say the worshippers of images answered you for the maintenaÌ„ce of their error we think no diuinity to be in the image which we adore but only in honor of the person whose image it is we worship it with such veneration that answere of theirs we reproue detest as wel as you because they do know there is no diuine thing in the image they be the more blame worthie for bestowing diuine honor on a weake beggarly Image the self same answere many of the East church entangled with this hainous error giue to such as rebuke theÌ„ the Lord of his mercy graÌ„t that yet at leÌ„gth both these and those may bee drawen from this superstition of theirs Fraunce hath Images and suffereth them to stand for the causes which I before rehearsed but they count it a great detestation abomination to haue them adored In this opinion stoode the west Churches a long time till your schoolemen started vp and ouer-ruled Religion with their sophisticall distinctions and solutions and they keeping the wordes of the later Nicene Councell and not marking their drift controled that which they concluded and brought in a lewder and wickeder kind of adoring of Images with the same honor that is due to the Principall The chiefe actor in this was your glorious Sainct and Clerke as you cal him Thomas Aquin who reiecting all that was decreed at Nice inferred against them that no reuerence could be exhibited to the Image of Christ in that it was a thing grauen or painted because reuerence is due to none but to a reasonable creature and alleaging Aristotles authoritie that the motion to the Image and originall is all one he resolueth in these wordes Cum Christus adoretur adoratione latriae consequens est quod eius imago sit adoratione latriae adoranda Since then Christ is adored with diuine honour it followeth that his Image must likewise be adored with the self-same diuine honour Bonauenture an other of your Romish Sainctes canonized by Sixtus the fourth goeth after Thomas with full saile Quin Imago Christi introducta est ad repraesentandum eum qui pro nobis Crucifixus est nec affert se nobis pro se sed pro illo ideo omnis reuerentia quae ei offertur exhibitur Christo propterea Imagini Christi debet cultus latriae exhiberi Whereas the Image of Christ representeth him that was crucified for vs and offereth it selfe vnto vs not for it self but for him in that respect all the reuerence which is giuen to it is done to Christ and therefore the Image of Christ must be honored with diuine adoration Holcote and Gerson somwhat disliked this assertion and disputed against it but the pronesse of the people to follow such fancies the greedines of Priestes and other religious persons to keepe and increase their offerings and the credite of Thomas his learning Sainctship and sectaries bare such a sway in the Church of Rome that the rest coulde not bee regarded nor heard and so the common opinion and resolution of your Churches and schooles as the fortresse of your faith confesseth was that the image of Christ should be worshipped with diuine honor whâ—ch you would faine shrinke from in our dayes the doctrine being both strange and wicked if you could tell howe but that the wordes are so plaine that no pretence can colour them Your schoole doctrine therefore of adoring images with diuine honour not onely prohibited by the law of God and abhorred of all ancient and Catholike fathers but euen renounced in the second Nicene councell as repugnant to truth and shunned in the West church for a thowsande yeares after Christ and vpwarde as a most wicked errour howe coulde it on the suddaine with a sillie distinction of sundrie respectes become catholike what greater wickednes can there be than to giue the honor of God to stockes and stones and to say you do it not in regard of the matter but of the resemblance which the image hath to the originall as though it could be an image vnlesse it had some resemblance either in deed or in our opinion to the thing it selfe or man were not a truer better image of God and yet in no respect to be adored with diuine honor or as if God prohibiting all images made with hands to be adored had not included as well their resemblance as their matter Why may not any Pagan by this euasion worship what creature he will say he beholdeth honoreth in it not the matter but the wisedome power of the Creator And what other conceit is this than that which the Iewish heathenish Idolaters when they were reproued answered that they adored not the thinges which they saw but conueied their adoration by the image to him that was inuisible If such prophane speculations may be suffered in Gods cause wee may soone delude all that GOD hath commanded with one respect or other The
knowledge and gift not only permitted but also desired to exhort the people and giue thanks to God in other mens charges Philand This might be but how proue you this was the fault which the Apostle reproued Theo. I need not proue that If this which I speake might easilie come to passe then your inuincible arguments be sensible follies corelude vtterly no such thing as you imagine Your argumeÌ„t cannot be impregnable til your consequent be ineuitable since so many cases may be put though your antecedent be admitted to repel your consequeÌ„t what wisedome was it to make such vaunt of your forces not onely before the victory but when you see your selues so voide of al good artillerie Phi. Againe the publike seruice had but one language in this exercise they speak with many tongues Theo. Againe you can neither verifie your antecedent nor iustifie your consequent Set order of publike seruice they had none in the Apostles time the Pastors and ministers praied by heart as the spirite of God guided them This gift of praier some turned to their owne prayse and ostentation when they were admitted to giue thanks to God in the congregation of the faithfull and made their prayers in such tongues as they preferred or would seeme endewed with though the people vnderstood them not for which attempt the Apostle controlleth them Phi. These are your conceiuements Theo. Were they no mans but mine your reasons are weake and euen contemptible which you proclaimed for inuincible but as you heard S. Ambrose did informe you that these men whom S. Paul here toucheth vsed sometimes the Syrian and most times the Hebrew tongue in tractatibus aut oblationibus in their discourses to the people or ministration of the Sacrament as they pleased Phi. In the publike seruice euery man had not his owne speciall tongue his speciall interpretation special reuelation proper Psalmes but in this they had Theophil In the publike seruice of the church the ministers and Elders which were many both trauelers and there dwellers had euery man his Psalme his instruction his tongue reuelation or interpretation as the spirite of grace thought it most expedient for the setting foorth of Gods glory and the edifieng of their faithes that were present and other order of diuine seruice in the Apostolike and primatiue church wee reade for certaintie of none besides the action of the Lordes supper which the Apostles and so no doubt their churches alwaies vsed in the end of their publik meetings but with not set prayers saue onely the Lordes prayer as Gregorie confesseth the rest of their prayers blessinges and thanksgiuinges were in euery place made by the gift of the holy Ghost inspiring such as were set to teach and gouerne the church And though you haue long since their time framed a Liturgie in Iames name wheron you seeme to ground all the cauils that here are vrged as inuincible arguments yet for so much as the church of Christ did not acknowledge it and the words of Gregory directly impugne it we return that home to the forge whence it came your arguments back to you as wanting both truth strength to beare out your cause Phi. The publike seruice had in it the administration of the holy Sacrament principally which was not done in the time of this conference Theo. Though the Lordes supper was not ministred at that instant when the Pastors people were intending for doctrine yet did it follow immediatly vpon this exercise finished and due thankes offered to God by the whole church for the redemption of the world in the blood of his sonne neither besides your bold and bare negatiue do we see any cause why the singing blessing and thanksgiuing which S. Paul speaketh of should not be vnderstood to be the prayers and Psalmes that were vsed before after and at the Lordes table this I am sure S. Paul willeth all thinges to be done to edification and all must containe the church seruice ministration of the Sacrament as wel as Psalms or any other exercises of the church So that if the special discourse did not touch the ministration of the Lords supper the general direction doeth comprise it so much the more because the whole church as wel the people as the Preachers as well women as men haue equall interest in the Lords supper to be thereat fed and thereby stirred to giue thanks to God for the richesse of his mercie in the death of Christ. And if you thinke that vnderstanding and consenting is more needful for the people in any other prayers than in those that are made at the Lordes Table you erre not of ignorance but of wilfulnesse and care not what you say so you may entertaine the simple with somewhat for the sauing of your credite Phi Into this exercise were admitted the Catechâ—mens and Infidels and whosoeuer would in this weomen before S. Pauls order did speake and prophesie so did they neuer in the ministration of the Sacrament With manie other plaine differences that by no meanes the Apostles wordes can be rightly and truely applied to the Corinthians Seruice then or ours nowe Theo. You should close vppe the matter with the strongest argument you haue and this is the weakest At their prophesies that was at their sermons and exhortations Infidels and nouices not yet baptized might bee at their mysteries they might not be but were sent away and the doores shut when the faithfull approached to the Lordes Table Hence you may conclude that euery hearer of the woorde may not bee partaker of the diuine mysteries but that the one did not presently followe the other in the Seruice of the Church or that S. Paul did not meane them both you shall neuer conclude yea rather the sending them away that might not bee present argueth that the rest which were left did foorthwith addresse them-selues to the participation of the Lordes Table and that all which was doone in the Church before both exhorting and praying was referred to this end to make them meete commers to that heauenlie banquet Phi. That may bee but S. Paul speaketh of the one and not of the other Theo. That you should prooue if you coulde tell howe Phi. We haue alreadie prooued it by inuincible argumentes Theo. Marie that you haue if blinde surmises and loose sequeles may stand for argumentes otherwise what haue you saide that hath any shewe of proofe I will not saie of inuincible proofe Your maine foundation is a dreame of your owne that the Church of Corinth had a prescribed number and order of prayers pronounced by some one Chaplin that sayde his lesson within booke and might not goe one line besides his Missale for any good This you imagine was their Church Seruice all other prayers Psalmes blessings and thankes-giuings though they were vsed openly in the congregation and the whole people bound to say Amen you will not haue to
full consent of all ages and Churches in expounding the same but also to chase the people by terror of secular power and ecclesiasticall curse from the cup of their saluation from the communion of Christs blood and felowship of his holy spirit Such fathers such fansies What is mockerie what is iniurie to God and man if this be Religion or pietie The Church of Rome you will say concluded with them That increaseth her sinnes and excuseth not their follies If an Angel from heauen had conspired with them our duetie bindeth vs to detest both him and them as accursed if they step from that which the primatiue church receiued from Paul and Paul from Christ Howe much more then ought wee to reiect that which the church of Rome presumeth not onely besides but against the sacred scriptures And yet to speake vprightly the auncient church of Rome maketh wholy with vs in this cause For no church euer resisted your mangled communions with greater vehemencie than the church of Rome did till couetousnesse and pride blinded her eyes and hardned her heart against God and his sonne Pope Iulius that lyued vnder Constantine the great made this decree We heare that certaine led with schismaticall ambition against the diuine ordinances and Apostolike directions doe giue TO THE PEOPLE the Eucharist dipped in wyne for a full communion They receiued not this from the Gospell where Christ betooke his body and blood to the Disciples For there is recited the deliuering the bread by it selfe and the cup by it selfe Let therefore all such error and presumption cease least inordinate and peruerse diuises weaken the soundnes of fayth If the communion bee neither perfite nor agreeable to Christes institution and Apostolike prescription except the people receiue both kinds seuerall and asunder the bread from the cup and the cup from the bread as Christ ordayned and the Gospel declareth Ergo your excluding the people cleane from the cup is altogether repugnant to the manifest intent of our Sauiour and right imitation of his Apostles And what if the first authors of your drie communion were the Manichees are you not wise men and well promoted to forsake the precept which Christ gaue you the president which Paul left you the course which the christian world for so many yeeres obserued and followe so pestilent and pernicious a sect of heretikes reprooued and long since condemned by the church of Rome for that very fraude and abuse in the Sacraments which you bee nowe fallen vnto The Manichees sayth Leo to couer their infidelitie venter to bee present at our mysteries and so carie them-selues in the receiuing of the Sacraments for their more safetie that they take the body of Christ with an vnwoorthy mouth but in any wise they shunne to drinke the blood of our redemption Which I would haue your dâ—uoutnes speaking to the people learne for this cause that such men might bee knowen to you by these markes and when their sacrilegious simulation is founde they may bee noted and bewrayed by the Godly that they may bee chased away by the priestly power Against this disorder of Manichees wrate Pope Gelasâ—â— as your friende Master Harding confesseth Wee haue intelligence that certaine men receiuing onely a portion of the sanctified body abstaine from the cup of the sacred blood who for that it appeareth they be entangled with I knowe not what superstition let them either receiue the whole Sacraments or be driuen from the whole because the diuiding and parting of one and the same mysterie can not bee without grieuous sacrilege The sense is plaine To take the Lordes breade and not drinke of the Lordes cup is a seuering and distracting of this mysterie which by the iudgement of these two Popes is open sacrilege ergo neither Catholike or christian What shift nâ—we Philander to saue your selues from sacrilege Spake Gelasius of the Manichees as Master Harding resolueth Graunt it were so Then what was sacrilege in them can it bee catholike in you If that auncient church of Rome condenmed this in the Manichees howe commeth your late Church of Rome not onely to suffer but also to commaund the same Can you turne darkâ—nes to light and sacrilege to Religion That were a marueilous alteration But Siâ—s your minds may change wee knowe Christes institution can not changâ— The contempt thereof in Manichees in Papistes as then so still was and will be sacrilege Spake Gelasius not of the Manichees but of certaine Priestes that receiuing the bread at the Lordes table neglected the cup Yet Leo speaketh of the Manichees by name and â—hose Laymen and mingled with the people and calleth their forbearing the Lords blood a sacrilegious sleight reason were you should prooue that onely Priesâ—es are ment in this place of Gelasius and not suppose what you list at your pleasures as the gloze doeth and others of your side that stand on this answere The woordes are indefinite and touch as well people as Priest but let vs imagine that Gelasius spake of Priestes first then you commit sacrilege in restraining all Priestes from the communion of both kinds except they say Masse themsâ—lues Next if it bee sacrilege in the Priest why not in the people The precept of our Sauiour drinke ye all of this compriseth all both Laymen and Priestes His Apostle extendeth the same to the whole Church of Corinth Chrysostome sayth the Priest differeth nothing from the people in receiuing the mysteries but one cup is proposed to al In Chalice nobiscum vos estis You sayth Austen to the people are in the Lordes cup no lesse than we The cup was deliuered to all men Priest and people with like condition as Theophilact affiâ—meth Drinke yee all of this that is sayth Paschasius as well other beleuers as Ministers Hence wee frame you this argument The cup was by Christ deliuered to Priest and People with like condition and like precept the refusing of the Lordes cup is sacrilege in priests by the position of Gelasius and the confession of your friends it is therefore no lesse than sacrilege for the people to refraine the same What then is it for you to pull the Lordes cuppe out of their handes by rigor and force for so trifling respectes as you pretende but apparent violent and wilfull sacrilege Phi. It was sacrilege then for the people to refuse or refraine the cup because the church was content to admitte them to it But now the church is otherwise resolued it were sacrilege to expect or demand it Theo. What shall the man of sinne and sonne of perdition when he commeth if hee bee not already come and you his supporters to hold vp his seate in the temple of God say more than you now say that you at your lists may breake the commandements of the great and euerlasting God and alter his ordinances and to blame you for
here on earth though after an inuisible manner which wee take to bee vnder the formes of breade and wyne Theo. That Christ is present with vs here on earth wee firmely beleeue to our great comfort Where two or three sayth our Sauiour are gathered together in my name I am in the middest of them and againe Loâ— I am alway with you vntill the ende of the worlde but that hee is corporally present vnder the formes of bread and wine that is neither auouched by Chrysostome nor admitted by vs it is your vaine and fruitlesse fansie Phi. How can his body bee present but bodily Theo. These woordes of Chrysostom inferre not that Christes body is present but that Christ is present And since Christ consisteth of two natures the diuine may bee present though the humane bee not Christ absent sayth Austen is also present For vnlesse hee were present hee coulde not bee helde of vs our selues But because it is true that hee saith Lo I am with you for euer vnto the end of the world hee is both departed and yet here Hee is returned whence hee came and hath not yet forsaken vs. For his body hee hath caried into heauen but his diuine maiestie hee hath not taken from the world Neither is his diuine power onely present with vs but also wee haue his humane nature many wayes with vs in this worlde Habes Christum in praesenti in futuro In praesenti per fidem in praesenti per signum Christi in praesenti per Baptismatis Sacramentum in praesenti per altaris cibum potum Thou hast Christ sayth Austen in this worlde and in the next In this world by faith in this worlde by the signe of Christ in this world by the Sacrament of baptisme in this world by the meate and drinke of the altar By these things wee haue him in this worlde not really locally or corporally but truely comfortably and effectually so as our bodies soules and spirites bee sanctiâ—â—ed and preserued by him against the day of redemption when wee shall see him and enioye him face to face in that fulnesse and perfection which wee nowe are assured of by fayth and prepared for by cleanesse and meekenesse of the inward man The whole Church therefore neuer cried vppon the Sacrament Lorde I am not woorthy Lord beè mercifull to mee a sinner Lambe of God that takest away the sinnes of the worlde haue mercy on vs You doe sinnefully slaunder them they did exactly and precisely distinguish the corruptible creature from the eternal creator and taught all men to lift vp their hearts from the elements which were before their eyes to him that is in heauen and shall come from thence and from no place else to iudge the world Saint Austen wil haue the rude ones to be taught that the Sacraments are Signacula rerum diuinarâ—m visibilia sed res inuisibiles in eis honorari Visible scales of things diuine but the things visible to be honored in them And as if the case were so plaine that no man could well doubt thereof he saith Si ad ipsas res visibiles quibus Sacramenta tractantur animum conferamus quis nesciat eas esse corruptibiles Si autem ad id quod per illas agitur quis non videat non posse corrumpi If we looke to the visible things or elements by which the Sacraments are perfourmed who can be ignorant that they are corruptible But if we looke to that which is doone by them who doth not see that that can not bee corrupted Saint Ambrose saith Venisti ad Altare vidisti Sacramenta posita super Altare ipsam quidem miratus es creaturam Tamen creatura solemnis nota Thou camest to the Altar and sawest the Sacraments placed on the Altar and maruelledst at the very creature yet is it an vsuall and knowen creature Origen purposely creating what part of the Sacrament did sanctifie the receiuer saith Ille cibus qui sanctificatur per verbum Dei obsecrationem iuxta id quod habet materiale in ventrem abit in secessum eijcitur Nec materia panis sed super â—llum sermo est qui prodest non indigne Domino commedenti illum Haec de typico Symbolicoque corpore The meate which is sanctified at the Lords table by the word of God and praier as touching the materiall partes which it hath goeth into the belly and so forth by the priuie neither is the matter of bread it that profiteth the worthy receiuer but the worde rehearsed ouer it This I speake of the typicall and figuratiue body For this cause the great Councell of Nice directed the whole Church to lift vp their vnderstanding aboue the breade and wine which they sawe and by faith to conceiue the lambe of God slaine for the sinnes of men and proposed and exhibited on the Lordes table in those mysteries Their woordes bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Let vs not baselie bend our mindes on the bread and cup that are set before our eyes at the Lordes Supper but lifting vp our thoughtes let vs by faith beholde on or in the sacred table the Lambe of God taking awaie the sinne of the worlde Which admonition the Church euer after obserued by crying vpon the people to lift vp their hartes not to the Sacramentes which they saw but from them to him that liued and raigned in heauen whome they adored in equall degree with the father and the holie Ghost and whome they behelde and touched with the eyes and handes of their faith but not with their corporall limmes or senses Quomodo in caelum mittam manum vt ibi sedentem teneam Mitte fidem tenuisti Howe shall I sende vp my hande to heauen to reach Christ sitting there Sende thy fayth sayth Austen and THOV HOLDEST HIM fast enough Fide Christus tangitur fide Christus videtur non corpore tangitur non oculis comprehenditur By fayth sayth Ambrose Christ is touched by fayth Christ is seene hee is not touched with our body not viewed with our eyes And therefore Chrysostome saith Hee must flie not to the Sacrament but on hie that will come to this body euen to heauen it selfe or rather aboue the heauens for where the body is there also will the Eagles bee Phi. The councell of Nice sayth The Lambe of God is on the sacred table where then did they seeke him or made they prayers vnto him but on the Altar Theo. They lifted vp their heartes to him that sate in heauen and from heauen looke downe vppon them and their prayers before they could please God were directed to the same place and person that their heartes were You must therefore either fasten their hearts and faiths to the Sacrament or suffer their prayers together with their affections to ascend to heauen where Christ sitteth at the right hande of God
mysterie that Christ is eaten vnder the formes of bread and wine Theo. None at all if you set your teeth and iawes on worke to eate him as the Capernites thought they should when they peruerted the wordes of Christ. Phi. They supposed they should haue seene and tasted mans flesh which is horrible Theo. Eating as I haue shewed you doth consist not in seeing or tasting but in chamming and swallowing since you therein consent with the Capernites though you could alleadge twentie diuersities betweene their maner of eating yours yet both are corporal and contrary to that doctrine which Christ deliuered in the sixt of Iohn â— For that as I haue proued was intended and referred to the soules and spirits of men not to their throats or entrals and therefore well in couering the body of Christ and deluding your senses you may differ from the Capernites but in preparing your teeth and iawes for the flesh of Christ and in drawing his wordes from their mystical and figuratiue sense you ioyne with the Capernites against all the Catholike Fathers that euer wrate in the Church of Christ. Phi. Haue we thinke you no fathers with vs as well for the literall construction of Christs wordes as for the corporal eating of his flesh in the Sacrament Corporall I call it not because we see it or tast it as we doe other meates but because we be sure it entereth our mouthes when we receiue our rightes and is really contained in our bodies Theo. You may abuse some fathers to make a shew but otherwise you haue no ground in them either of your literall vnderstanding Christs speach or corporal eating of christs â—lesh Phi. Haue we not S. Damascen S. Epiphanius Theophilact Euthymius and others earnestly presse the literal construction of christs words against your signes and figures and as for eating the flesh of Christ with our very mouthes S. Austen S. Chrysostom S. Leo S. Gregorie S. Cyril Tertullian others are resolute whoÌ„ I trust you wil not condemn for Capernites By this way the simple learne what to looke for at your hands that wil out-face so plaine a trueth Theo. He that will be good at outfacing let him studie your Testament and hee neede none other teacher but what trueth is it that we outface Phi. Neuer father you said auouched the literal sense of Christes wordes Theo. I said no ancient father of which number I do not account these late Grecians to be And therefore if they did contradict that which Tertullian Austen Origen Chrysostome and others did teach long before them wee would not regard them but as yet I seeâ— no such thing proued by them Phi. The proofe is easie S. Damascene rehearsing the wordes of Christ This is my body immediately addeth not a figure of my body but my body not a figure of my bloud but my bloud S. Epiphanius likewise Christ said take eate this is my body Hee saide not take eate the Image of my body And Theophilact Bread is the very bodie of our Lord and not a figure correspondent For he said not this is a figure but this is my body And so Euthymius Christ said not these are signes of my body but these are my body These be manifest places and yet such is your impudencie that you affirme no father euer vrged the literall force of Christes words And so for the corporall eating of Christs flesh with our mouthes S. Augustine saith It hath pleased the holy Ghost that in the honour of so great a Sacrament our Lordes bodie should enter into the mouth before other meates And S. Chrysostome Our mouth hath gotten no small honour receiuing our Lordes bodie And S. Gregorie The bloud of the lambe is sucked not only by the mouth of the heart but also by the mouth of the body And S. Leo That is receiued by the mouth which is beleeued by the heart And Tertullian Our flesh doth feede on the bodie and bloud of our Lord And S. Cyril It was needfull that this rude and earthly body should be recouered to immortalitie by touch tast and foode of the same kind with it selfe You aske for fathers here they be both many in number and auncient in time to discharge vs that we be no Capernites and to refell your foolish vaunt that all antiquitie were of the verie same mind that you are now It may bee you neuer heard the places before If you did not I will pardon your ignorance so you repent your rashâ—es Theo. Yeas sir I haue seene them and â—â— may bee weighed them better than euer you did And notwithstanding your magnificence it will appeare you be not free from ignorance whatsoeuer you be from impudencie Phil. I will burne my cloathes to my shirt if euer you answere them Theo. But saue your skinne from the fire though you spare not other mens blood nor bones Phi. We vse you but as heretikes should be vsed Theo. If it be heresie for vs to serue god according to the Gospel of his sonne what is it for you to serue him with your own medlees Phi. You would flie the fielde rather than your life but I must keepe you to it Theo. You runne so fast from God and your Prince that you may soone ouer-goe vs if we would flie but as yet I see no cause Damascene Theophilact and Euthymius presse the letter of christes speach not to deriue thence your carnal and guâ—tural eating of christs flesh nor to controll that which Tertullian Austen Origen Chrysostome and others men of farre greater learning and authoritie than these taught long before them in the church of God but to shew that bread and wine be not only tokens and bare signes of christes fleshe and bloud but also cary with them and in them the vertue power and effect of his death and passâ—on Euthymius Christ said not these be the signes of my body and bloud but these are my bodie and bloud We must therefore NOT LOOKE TO THE NATVRE of the giftes which are proposed BVT TO THE VERTVE Against them which defend that this Sacrament doth only figure not offer signifie not exhibite grace the letter may wel be forced to proue the diuine power and operation of the mysticall elemenets Against vs which hold the visible signes in substance to bee creatures in signification mysteries in operation and vertue the things themselues whose names they bearâ— this illation concludeth nothing Yet for the better explication of him selfe and others vsing the like kind of speach Theophilact addeth this worde ONLY Marke that the bread which is eaten of vs in the mysteries Non est TANTVM figuratio quaedam carnis Domini is not an only figuring of the Lords flesh but the Lords very flesh For he saide not the bread which I will giue is a figure of my flesh but is my flesh Their meaning was as we see
the thinges themselues whose signes those are Philand It were Theophil Why then since corporall eating serueth only for corporall nourishing and hath a continuall and naturall coherence with it doe you confesse the trueth in the later and not as well in the former part of that action why doe you not expound them both alike Philand To say the immortall fleshe of Christ is conuerted and turned into the quantitie and substaunce of our mortall flesh is an horrible heresie Theophil And so say that his fleshe is eaten with our mouthes and â—awes lâ—â—th in our stomacks is the verie pathway right introduction to that heresie or at least to as brutish and grosse an erour as that is Philand The Fathers affirme that his body is eaten with our mouthes Theophil And so they affirme that his bodie and blood doe increase and augment the substaunce of our mortall and sinnefull bodies Philand But that can not bee Theophil No more can the other Philand Howe shall our bodies rise at the last day if Christes body bee not in them Theophil Our resurrection dependeth not on the act of eating his flesh but of nourishing our fleshe with his as Ireneus telleth vs and the thinges which wee eate are not the causes but as the great Nicene councell admonisheth the pledges of our resurrection Their words be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we must beleeue these to bee the signes or pledges of our resurrection Philand S. Chrysostom earnestly inforceth the eating of Christs flesh And sayth wee doe not onely eate it but euen * fasten our teeth in his fleshe Theo. In deede hee saith so but if you did not auert both your eyes and eares from the trueth you would perceiue by that verie sentence both the maner of his other Fathers speeches of that Sacrament and the right intent of their Doctrine in those cases His wordes are Non se tantum videri permittens desiderantibus sed tangi manducari dentes carni suae infigi desiderio sui omnes impleri Christ suffering himselfe not only to bee seene of those that are desirous but to bee touched and eaten and our teeth to bee fastned in his flesh and all to be satisfied of their longing after him Phi. Lord me thinketh these words be verie plain words He suffereth our teeth to bee fastned in his fleshe Theo. Uerie plaine they bee but very false also vnlesse you either take the flesh of Christ for the signe called by that name or else referre teeth and biting to the soule and faith of the â—â—ward man aâ— wel as you do the eyes hands wherewith we see him touch him Phi. Look what an â—â—â—sion you haue since gotten Theo. Nay looke what a subuersion of all truth and saith you be since fallen to Phi. Doth not this Father say wee fasten our teeth in his flesh Theo. Doeth hee not also say We see him with our eyes touch him with our handes Phi. That is referred to our faith as S. Ambrose teacheth Fide Christus videtur side Christus tangitur By faith Christ is seene by fayth Christ is touched Theoph. And why shall not the next which is more vnlikely to bee true bee referred to faith as well as the former Sainct Ambrose likewise saying Comedat te cor meuÌ„ panis sancte panis viue panis munde veni in cor meum intra in animam meam Let mine heart eate thee O holy bread O liuing bread O pure-bread come into my heart enter into my soule and Cyprian calling it the proper norishment of the spirite besides infinite others that for a thowsande yeares taught that doctrine in the church of God not your gutturall eating of Christ with teeth and iawes Phi. Was your maner of eating Christes fleshe which you defende in the sacrament taught in the church for a thowsande yeares Theop. Euen ours was and when yours came first to be proposed your schoolemen ran euery man his way fighting and scratching one an other â—ho should fal fastest and farthest from the truth Philand Blush you not to auouch two such monsterous lies Theop. A lyar will easily suspect any man as knowing him-selfe to delight in lies but GOD bee thanked that lyes with you bee truethes with vs and with all that haue any knowlegde of GOD or care of his truth The things which I affirmed be manifest truethes and such as you will blush at for verie shame if you be not sworne to your holie Father against Christ as well as you bee against your Prince Origen commenting vppon these wordes of the Supper this is my bodie this is my blood this breade sayeth hee which Christ confesseth to bee his bodie is the worde that nourisheth our soules and this drinke which hee confesseth to bee his blood is the worde that moysteneth and passinglie cheereth the heartes of such as drinke it Thou which art come vnto Christ sticke not in the blood of his fleshe but rather learne the blood of his worde and heare him saying to thee this is my blood which shall bee shedde for the remission of your sinnes Hee that is partaker of the mysteries knoweth the flesh and blood of the worde of God For the bread is the word of righteousnesse which our soules eating are nourished with and the drink is the worde of the knowledge of Christ according to the mysterie of his birth and death The blood of the Testament is poured into our heartes for the remission of our sinnes Athanasius Howe fewe men woulde his bodie haue sufficed that this shoulde bee the foode of the whole worlde Yea therefore doeth bee warne them of his ascension into heauen that he might drawe him from thinking on his bodie and they thereby learne that the flesh which he spake of was celestiall meate from aboue and spirituall nourishment to bee giuen by him The wordes which I spake to you are spirite and life which is as much as if hee had sayde this bodie which is in your sight and delyuered to death for the worlde shall bee giuen you for meate that it may bee spiritually distributed in euery one of you and be an assuraunce and preseruatiue to raise you to eternall life Cyprian writing of the Lordes Supper Eating and drinking saieth hee bee referred to the one and same end with the which as the substance of our bodies is increased and preserued so the life of the spirite is maintained with his proper nourishment What foode is to the fleshe that faith is to the soule what meate is to the body that the worde is to the spirite working euerlastingly with a more excellent vertue that which bodily meates doe for a time and vntill a season Ambrose approaching to the sacred communion which you intitle a prayer preparing to Masse amongest other thinges speaketh thus to Christ himselfe Thou Lord saydst with thine holy and blessed mouth the bread
to say is hereticall And therefore they ioyne both in this that the bodie of Christ may not only be eaten of a Mouse but also it may be vomited vppe by the mouth and purged downe by the draught say Bonauenture what he will or can in detestation of their folke These be their words Igitur corpus Christi sanguis tam diu manet in ventre stomacho vel vomitu quocunque alibi quamdiu species manet Et si specieâ— incorruptae euomuâ—tur illa autem qâ—andoque non corrùpta emâ—ttuâ—tur vt in habentibus fluxum ibi est vere corpus Christi Therefore the bodie and bloud of Christ remaine in the bellie anâ— stomacke or in vomite and in whatsoeuer course of nature so long as the shewes of bread and wine remaine And if they be vomited or purged before they be altered as sometimes in those that are troubled with the fluxe euen there is the true bodie of Christ. O filthie mouthes and vncleane spirites What Capernite what heretike what Infidel was euer I say not so carnall and grosse but so barbarous and brutish Is this the reuerence you giue to the sacred and glorious flesh of Christ Is this the corporal presence that you striue for Shal Mice Dogges and Swine haue eternall life that you bring them to eate the fleshe and drinke the bloud of our Sauiour The rest of your sluttish diuinitie no religious hart can repeate no Christian eares can abide let your neerest frindes be iudges whether this kinde of eating doe not match not only the Capernites but also the Canibals This vile and wicked assertion you will beare men in hand you did euer detest and so think to discharge your selues but you cannot scape so The church of Rome whose factours and attournies you be must answere to God and the worlde for suffering admitting and strengthning this sacrilegious blasphemie For when these things were first broched what did she Did she controle the doers and condemne the filthines of their error Did she so much as note the men or mislike the matter No Philander she proposed the question in her sentences Quid igitur sumit mus vel quid manducat What then doth the mouse take or what doth he eate And with her colde and indifferent answer Deus nouit God knoweth she set the schoole men on work she laid vp the ashes of those mice next her altars for reliques she fauored aduanced and canonized the spredders of it Thomas of Aquin was her only Paramour Hugh of Cluince who commended a Priest for eating the sacrament which a leaper had cast vp Cum vilissimo sputo was Saincted of her she made Antonius no worse man than an Archbishoppe What Call you this the quenching or kindling the suppressing or increasing of heresies No maruaile if you recken Rebels for Martyrs your holy mother the Church of Rome hath the cunning to make saints of blasphemers Returne returne for shame to grauitie trueth and antiquitie Learne to distinguishe that which is seene in this Sacrament from that which is beleeued I meane the visible creature from the grace which is not visible HADST THOV BEENE saith Chrysostome WITHOVT A BODIE Christ WOVLD HAVE GEEVEN THEE HIS INCORPORALL GVIFTS NAKEDLY that is without any coniunction of corporall creatures BVT NOW BECAVSE THY SOVL IS COVPLED WITH A BODIE THEREFORE IN THINGS THAT BE SENSIBLE THINGS INTELLIGIBLE ARE DELIVERED THEE AS BREAD saith Cyril of this sacrament SERVETH FOR THE BODIE SO THE WORD SERVETH FOR THE SOVL. It is neither nouâ—ltie nor absurditie to say that the bread of the Lorde as touching the material substance may bee deuoured of beasts digested of men and will of it selfe in continuance mould and putrifie Such is the condition of all creatures that serue to nourish our bodies and this is a creature well knowen and familiar to our senses But the word of God which is added to the corporall elements the grace which is annexed to the visible signes and the flesh of Christ which quickneth the soul of man by faith these thinges I say be free from all violent and vndecenâ— abuses and iniuries For they be no corporall mortall nor earthlie creatures but spirituall eternall and heauenly blessings and therefore in no case subiect to the greedines of beasts vncleanes of men or weaknes of nature The element is one thing saith Ambrose the operation is an other thing That which is seene in all Sacraments is temporall that which is not seene is eternall If wee looke to the very visible thinges wherein Sacraments are ministred who is ignorant saith Austen that they be corruptible But if wee consider that which is wrought by them who doth not see that that cannot suffer any corruption Of the Lordes Supper Origen affirmeth that the bread as touching the matter or materiall partes thereof goeth into the bellie and forth by the draught but the praier and blessing which is added doeth lighten the soule according to the portion of faith The sacrament that is the sacred element is one thing saieth Rabanusâ— the power of the Sacrament is an other thing The Sacrament is receiued in at the mouth with the vertue of the Sacrament the inwarde man is filled the Sacrament is turned into the nourishment of the bodie by the vertue of the Sacrament wee attaine eternall life This doâ—trine your schoolemen either wilfullie reiected or foolishly peruerted to make Christ substantiallie present in your Masses and for that onely cause felâ— thâ—y to the locall shutting of him within the formes of bread and the corporall eating his flesh with their teeth Which grossenes once preuailing in your Church of Rome Thomas Alexander Antonius and the greatest Clarkes of your side were by the consequent of your reall presence forced to conâ—â—sse that the flâ—sh of Christ might be subiect to the teeth and iawes as well of beastes as of vnbeleeuers For wickednes is worse than sluttishnes and the bodies of sinnefull men God more detesteth than he doth the bowels of vnreasonable creatures Since then by the generall consent of your Church Christ doeth not refuse the bellies and intralles of faithlesse persons why say they should he not be verily contained in the capacities and inwardes of brute beastes if by mischaunce they deuoure the Sacrament This hold fast your gloze layeth hands on Si dicatur quodmus sumat corpus Christi non est magnum inconueniâ—ns cum homines sceleratissimi illud sumant If it be said that a mouse taketh the bodie of Christ it is no great inconuenience seeing most wicked men doe receiue the same and this Bonauenture setteth downe for the chiefest motiue to that vile assertion Phi. To tel you truth I like not that position Theo. So long as you defend Christs humane substance to be locally present in your host you cannot for your hart auoide it but either by mocking your sâ—lues and deluding your senses or
dipped his hands in his brothers bloode nor take the wages of Balaam to curse and reuile the people of God nor perish in the contradiction of Corah for resisting both God and the Magistrate but rather that wee may be sanctified and saued by the might of his word and store of his mercy laid vp in Christ his sonne for all that beleeue him and call vpon him Phi. God send vs such part as our fathers had Theo. You be so displeased with God for punishing the sinnes of your fathers with blindnes and error in these later ages that now you will none of his light nor grace though he offer it freely to saue your soules but if you will needes perish your owne bloode be on your owne heades yet haue vs excused if we thinke our sinnes heauie enough though wee adde not thereto the neglect of his worde and contempt of his trueth as you doe In the knowledge of God and reuerence of his iudgements there is a path way to repentaunce and hope of mercy in the proude dislike of his seueritie towards others and sâ—ubberne refusall of his goodnes towards our selues there is nothing but an heaping of extreme vengeaunce which shall consume the wicked and impenitent resisters of his word and spirit Phi. We be not of that number Theo. Were you not you would be more carefull to search and willing to embrace the trueth of Christ once vnderstoode with all readines and lowlines of minde knowing that God resisteth the proud and giueth grace to the humble and not with an high-looking and self-pleasing perswasion that all is yours neglect your duty to God and man Phi. We obserue both Theo. You obserue neither Subiection to your lawfull Prince you haue forsaken and not onely fledde the Realme and incited others to doe the like but the Christian alleageance which the Prince requireth of her subiects you impugne with shifts and slaunders in fauoâ—r of him who wickedly and iniuriously taketh vpon him to be the supreme Moderator of earthly kingdomes chiefe disposer of princes Crowns and so fast are you lincked in confederacie with him that in open view of all men you will allow no Prince to beare the sword longer than shall like him but proclaime rebellions of subiects against their Soueraignes to be iust honorable warres if he authorize them by his Censures And where to cloake your wicked and enormous attempts you boldely surmised that you did whatsoeuer you did for that Religion which was ancient Catholike we haue presently taken you so tardie short of your reckoning that for sixe of the greatest and cheefest points now in question betwixt the Church of England and the Church of Rome and reformed in this Realme by publike authoritie you cannot bring vs so much as one ancient euident testimony that your faith and Doctrine was euer taught or receiued in the primatiue church of christ and yet you please your selues in your owm conceits and compasse the earth to get prosilites fit for such teachers whom you may traine vp in error and vse as instruments to catch vnstable soules and fier vnquiet heades that you by them may disturbe realmes and fishe for Princes thrones and liues in troubled waters Phi. All this is as false as God is true Theo. God himselfe shall skant be trueth if you may be the iudges except hee take your parts But facing and craking laid aside you must referre the iudgement of your doings and sayings to others and not to your selues Phi. To Catholikes I am content The. They must be then of your instructing that is such as will trust neither fathers nor Scriptures against your Canons otherwise in that you haue saide they shall find no great cause to like your impugning the Princes power right to establish Lawes within her owne lande without the Popes leaue and to hold her Crowne against his censures and as litle shall they find to cal you or count you Catholikes Phi. Men of your own pitch will soone assent to any thing Theo. Let them be but indifferent and weigh what you haue brought Phi. More we can bring when we see our times The It skilleth not how much but how sound that is which you can bring Phi. Of that hereafter and yet in the meane time there be many other thinges besides these that you haue handled that must be discussed before we can be pronounced no Catholikes And as in these you seeeme with wresting and wrenching to haue some aduantage so in those we could forthwith confound you The. Euen as you haue doone in these Phi. A great deale more readily if I had time to stay the triall of them but this holy tide I must spend in other matters of more importance Theo. What In spredding newes that the king of Spain doth stay but for the next summer Phi. We meddle not with forraine affaires Theo. A number of you be better seene in policie than in diuinitie you were borne belike to be rulers though it be but of Rebels as Sanders was that thought it a praise to take the field in person against his Prince Phi. My trauell is not to that end Theo. You leaue that for others and trauel to sound the harts of your adherents whether they be in number welth and zeale likely and readie to giue assistance if any should inuade Phi. What vnchristian coniectures you haue of vs Theo. None but such as your owne deedes and wordes occasion Phi What cause haue we giuen you to speake this of vs Theo. What greater cause can you giue than openly to auouch as you haue done in your Defence of Catholiks as you call them yâ— rebellions against such Princes as the Pope deposeth are godly iust honourable wars Phi. If hee may depose them they are Theo. You haue in print affirmed both and sought to proue them with all your might and therefore what shal we thinke your secret whispering and reconâ—ling to the Church of Rome is but a craftie bayte of Malcontentes to make rebels Phi. The parties themselues can witnesse we neuer mention any such thing in our absolution To them we appeale for record Theo. For my part I thinke you doe not It were too grosse conspiracie treason to take vowes and oths of subiects against their Prince by name and therefore if you should take that open course you were worthie to ride to Tyburne not only for traytors but also for disards But when you reconcile them you take assurance of them by vow oth or other adiuration that they shall embrace the Catholike faith and hold Communion vnitie with the Church of Rome for euer after Phi. Why should we not Theo. Then when it pleaseth my Lord the Pope to depriue the Prince and to excommunicate al that assist or agnise her for a lawfull magistrate what must your reconciled sort doe Is it not against their oth faith giuen to you at their restitution to
the bosome of the Catholike Church as you terme it to obay their Prince against the censures of your Church Phi. I haue hast in my way Theophilus and I haue said as much as I wil at this time Theo. I can hold you Philander no longer than you liâ—t but yet remember this as you ride by the way which I reiterate because both your Seminaries shall think the better of it that as many as you reconcile so long as you teach this for a point of faith that the Pope may depose Princes and must bee obayed in those his censures of all that will be Catholikes so many both heretikes against God and traytors against the Prince you hatch vnder the hoode of religion and also that the thinges now reformed in the Church of England are both catholik and christian notwithstanding your fierce bragges and fiery wordes lately sent vs in your RHEMISH Testament To the KING euerlasting immortall inuisible vnto GOD which is only wise be honour and praise for euer and euer Amen The speciall contents of euery part The contents of thâ— first part The Iesuits pretenders of obedience Pag. 2 The causes why they fledde the Realme 5 The proofes and places of their Apologie 7 Forcing to Religion 16 Two Religions in one Realm 21 Toleraunce of error 26 Toleraunce of error in priuate places and persons 27 Compulsion to seruice and Sacraments 29 Exacting the oth 30 Their running to Rome 35 This Lande receiuing the faith from Rome 40 Preachers sent from Rome with the Kings consent 41 Preachers not conspirators froÌ„ Rome 41 Howe the Fathers soughte to Rome 42.48 Athanasius at Rome 44 Chrysostomes request to Innocentius 51 A forged Bull against Arcadius 53. Chrysostomes banishment 55 How Saint Augustine sought to Rome 56 How S. Basil sought to Rome 58 S. Ieroms letters to Damasus 60 The Rocke on the which the Church is built 62 S. Cyprian lately corrupted 65 Gratian suspected 66 Peters person laide in the foundation of the Church 67 Theodoret and Leo. 67 The Bishop of Rome resisted 68 Paul resisted Peter 69 Polycarpus resisted Anicetus 70 Polycarpus resisted Victor 70 Cyprian resisted Stephanus 71 Flauianus withstoode foure Bishops of Rome 72 Cyrillus withstoode the Bishop of Rome 72 Councels resisting the Byshop Rome 73 The Councell of Africa resisted the Byshop of Rome 74 Forged Decretals 76 The councel of Ephesus threatning the Legates of Rome 78 The Councell of Chalcedon against the Bishop of Rome 79 The Councell of Constantinople against the Bishoppe of Rome 81 CorruptioÌ„s in the CanoÌ„ lawe 81 The Brytons resisting the Bishop of Rome 82 The Grecians detesting him 83 The Germans deposing him 84 His owne Councels depose him 85. Fraunce resisting the Pope 92 Paris appealeth from him 94 The french King resisting the Pope 95 The Kinges of England against the Pope 97 Our resistaunce more lawefull than theirs 104 Peters dignitie not imparted to the Pope 104 S. Ieroms praise of Rome 105 The manners of Rome since his time 105 The manners of Rome in his time 106 S. Cyprian forced to make for Rome 106 S. Augustine forced to make for Rome 107 From Peters seate is from Peters time 107 The intent of the Seminaries 108. High experiments of Popes 112 High experiments of the Popes clergie 114 The Iesuits slaunder England and Scotland 118 What the Iesuits worke teach in this land 119 The Pope succeedeth his Auncestors neither in seate nor beliefe 12â— The contents of the second part The Princes power to COMMAVND for trueth 124 Princes be gouernours of countries Byshops be not 127 Byshops by Gods lawes subiect to Princes as well as others 128. The Prince by Gods law charged with Religion 129 Princes may commaund for religion 133 Constantine commaunding for Religion 134 Constantius commaunding Bishops in causes ecclesiastical 135. Iustinian commanding for causes Ecclesiasticall 137 Charles commanding for causes Ecclesiasticall 139 The lawes of Charles for causes Ecclesiasticall 140 Ludoâ—ikes lawes for causes Ecclesiasticall 144 Ludouikes lawes visitors 144 What is ment by SVPREME 146. Supreme is subiect to none on earth 146 Princes subiect onely to God 147. Princes not subiect to the Pope 147. The Pope subiect to his Prince 148. Constantine superiour to the Pope in causes ecclesiastical 150 Emperours superiour to the pope in causes Ecclesiasticall 152 The Prince superiour to the Pope 160 Ieremies words expounded 160 How Prophets may plant and roote out kingdoms 161 Howe Kinges must serue the Church 162 How Byshops are to be obeied 164 How the Church is superiâ—ur to Princes 167 What is ment by the Church 168. The Prince not aboue the Church 171 Princes haue power ouer the persons of the Church 172 The woordes of S. Ambrose to Valentinian 173 The behauiour of S. Ambrose towards Valentinian 174 Valentinian refused to be iudge betweene Byshops 177 Valentinians fault 178 Theodosius searched and established the trueth 178 Princes decreeing for truth 179 Athanasius Osius Leontius 179 Athanasius reproued Constantius 180 Athanasius expounded 181 Why Constantius was reproued 182 Osius words examined 188 Leontius discussed 189 What Hilarie misliked in Constantius 190 Kings commended in the scriptures for medling with religion 191 Moses â—oshuaes example 192 King Dauids care for religioÌ„ 193 Princes charged with the whole law of God 194 Asa Iehosaphat Ezekiah perfourmed that charge 193 Manasses Idolatry repeÌ„tance 196 Iosiah reformed religion 197 Nehemiah correcteth the high Priests doings 197 Princes medled with religioÌ„ 198 Princes vsed to commaund for religion 198 God commaÌ„deth by their harts 199. Princes commanding for Religion 200 Princes haue ful power to command for trueth 202 Princes may prohibite and punish error 203 To commaund for causes Ecclesiasticall was vsuall with Princes 204 To commaund Bishops for causes Ecclesiasticall was vsuall with auntient Princes 206 The Iesuites purposely mistake the Princes supremacie 213 The Iesuits cauelling absurdities against the Popes power 221 This land oweth no subiection to tribunals abroade 228 This lande not subiect to the Popes tribunall 229 What subiection the Pope requireth 231 The Pope maketh it sacrilege blasphemie to doubt of his tribunall 231 A right Rhomish subiection 232 Patriarks of the west 233 Patriarks subiect to Princes 234 This Realme not in the Popes Prouince 135 The Patriarkeâ—dome dissolued 235 The words of the oth examined 236 It is easie to plaie with wordes 237 Princes gouerne with the sword Bishops do not 238 Princes only beare the sword in all spirituall things causes 238. Princes supreme bearers of the sword 240 Supreme gouernour displaceth not Christ. 241 Princes may not commaunde against the faith or Canons 242. Gregorie shamefully corrupted 243. Spirituall men aâ— matters 244. Carnall things called spirituall 245 Carnall thinges made spirituall to increase the Popes power and gaine 245 Carnall things made spirituall 246 Princes charged with spirituall things 247 Princes chiefely charged with things truly spirituall 247 Princes charged at Gods hands with things spirituall not
vmitate Ecclesiae Peter the first stone that Christ laid in the foundatioÌ„ of his church Cyprian de vmitate Ecclesiae Exordium and fundamentum all one Peter at this day lieth in the foundation of the church where Christ placed him Galat. 4. Ephes. 2. Heb. 12. Chalcedonens concilij actio 1. Leo tooke Theodoretes part against Dioscorus Euagrius lib. 1. cap. 10. Leo Epist. 61. ad TheodoretuÌ„ Chalcedonens Concilij actio 8. Their examples proue the Bishop of Rome had no such power as he now claimeth The Pope besought the Emperour with sighes teares for a Councel and could not preuaile In all these examples the Bishop of Rome neuer so much as alleadged or mentioned his vniuersall power which your Iesuites defend As the Bishop of Rome resisted others so others resisted him Who they were that resisted the Bishop of Rome Galat. 2. Ibidem Paul resisting Peter that after his installation at Rome if the Romish account be true which most men doubt Euseb. Chronic. in anno 44. Galat. 2. The Papistes make Peter a Nonresident Rhemish annor in Epi. ad Gal. cap. 2. vers 11. Whether Paul might resist Peter is an vngodly doubt Polycarpus withstood Anicetus for the obseruation of Easter Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 26. Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 25. Polycrates withstood Victor for the same cause Ibidem A great multitude of Bishops with Polycrates against Victor Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 26. Victor reproued by his owne side for offering to excommunicate the churches of Asia that stood against him Cyprian lib. 1. Epist. 4. Cyprian Epist. ad Pompeium contra Epist. Stephan CypriaÌ„s stoutnesse against Stephanus Bishop of Rome Ibidem Cyprian in an ill cause resisting the Bishop of Rome did and doth go for a Martyr and father of the church Flauianus withstood 4. Bishops of Rome though their cause were not much amisse Sozom. lib. 7. cap. 3. Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 23. Who tooke part with Flauianus against the Bishops of Rome The Prince willeth Flauianus to keepe his Church though foure Popes for 17. yeares togither impugned him Ibidem Ibidem Nice lib. 14. cap. 27. Cyrill esteemed not the communion of the Bishop of Rome Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 34. Those resistances were offered not by priuate persons but by Councels and Countries Euseb. lib. 5. Cap. 24. 25. Ibidem Cap. 26. Concil Cartha de haeret baptisandis inter opera Cypriani Sozome lib. 7. Cap. 11. Theodoret. li. 5. Cap. 23. Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 18. The sixt couÌ„cel of Carthage stoutly resisted the Bishop of Rome and conuinced him of forgery Vide Concilium Carthaginense sextum Cap. 3. Bonifacius saith the diuelled Saint Augustine the rest to be sawcie with the Bishop of Rome Bonifacius secundus ad Eulalium de reconcilia Carthaginens Eccl. Concilio tomo 1. Aphric concilij Cap. 92. Appeales to Rome condemned by Saint August and his Collegues Aphric concil Cap. 101. Aphric concil Cap. 105. The fathers neuer heard of Christs vicar general Where then are appeales to Rome The holy Ghost as wel â—â— one proâ—â—ace as in 〈◊〉 The Councel of Nice corrupted by the Bishop of Rome The Popes claime called the smokie pride of the world What the Councel of Africa denied to the Bishop of Rome Was this resisted or no Epist. Aegiptiorum ad MarcuÌ„ pro exempla Niceni Concilij tomo Conciliorum 1. The Papists to saue the Popes credit haue coÌ„mitted shameful forgeries Rescriptum Iulij contra orientales pro Athanasio And he a wise man to chose the worst Episto Africani conci ad Bonif. Cap. 101. No decretals can discredit the diligence of the African Bishops Concilium Carthaginense sextum Cap. 9. Concilij Afric Cap. 102. 103. Their Decretales are too yong to out-face the authenticke copies Ruffin lib. 1. Cap. 6. The Popes silence then conuinceth this forgerie since Marke the likelihoode of this fable and see the shamefastnes of Papists that mocke the worlde with them Extat Socratis lib. 1. Cap. 9. The Canons burnt before they were made Sozome lib. 1. Cap. 17. Beda distinc 16. sexta Sozom. lib. 3. Cap. 1. Athanas. not neere Aegypt when this letter was written thence in his name Rescriptuuâ— Marci Athanasio Aegyptijs Vide Sozome lib. 1. Cap. 25. 28. Concil Africa Cap. 102. An other forgerie vnder Iulius name worse than the former Rescript Iulij ad Orientales Cap. 29. The Papists haue forged a decretal in Iulius name where as his true letter is extant in Athanasius Apologie Socrat. lib. 1. Cap. 40. A man may feele this forgerie with his fingers Sozome lib. 3. Cap. 5. Athanasij Apologia 2. The first dated Calend. Octobris the second calend Nouembris the same yeare Euagâ— li. 1. ca. 4. Theodoret against the Popes deputy The Legats of Rome threatned by the first Ephesine Councel In Apologet. Cyril mandatuÌ„ Synod Ephesâ— Vide concilij Chalcedonens actioneÌ„ 16. The great councel of Chalcedon ouerruleth the Bishop of Rome Actio 16 concil Chalcedonen The Popes Legates could not then commaund in general couÌ„cels The Councel of Chalcedon proceeding without the Romish Legates Chalcedo CoÌ„cil cano 28. actio 15. repetitur actio 16. For what cause Rome had the supremacie giuen her Why Leo was so earnest against this Canon The Romish Legates their allegations reiected the second time in the Councel of Chalcedon EiusdeÌ„ Concilij â—câ—io 16. The selfsame priuileges that Rome had giuen to Constantinople The Pope had no negatiue in Councels Canons made in Counceles mauger the Bishop of Rome his legates Liberatus Cap. 13. Concilij sexti Constantinop Cap. 36. How the Popes law vseth ancient customes Distinct. 22. Renouantes A monsterous corruption of a councel turning an affirmatiue into a negatiue Africani concil Cap. 92. The Canon law glozeth the Councell of African quite against the text Caus. 2. quaest 6. placuit Saint Austen forged to make the Popes decretals of equall authoritie with the scriptures De doctrina Christiana lib. 2. Cap. 8. Distinct. 19. In canonicis Rubricae Ibidem Glosa Ibidem The britanes 4000 yeare agoe woulde yeelde no subiection to the Popes legate Beda lib. 2. Cap. 2. Bed histo gentis Anglorum lib. 2. Cap. 2. Galfrid monemutens lib. 8. Cap. 4. 1200 monks in one time chose rather to die than to be subiect to the Bishop of Rome Concili Laterae sub Innocentio 3 Cap. 4 The Grecians detesting the Bishop of Rome Paul Aemil. in Philippo 4. Idem Aeneas Syluius lib. 9. epitomes in decades Blondi Sessio vltima Florentiae in literis vnionis Graecorum responsio in vltima sessione Florentiae Platina in Eugenio 4. Luitprand li. 6. Cap. 10. Ibidem Cap. 7. The germans against the Bishop of Rome Platina in Gregorio 6. Cronicon Abba Vrspergensis Ibidem anno 1080. This was he that first ventred to depose Princes Ibidem anno 1083. The Romans reiected him as wel as the Germans did Platina in Gregorio 7. The later Italians make Hildebrand a Sainct for
to the ministers of the word and Sacramentes Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 21. God hath alreadie by his law prescribed which way he wil be serued that Princes may and must command in their realms though the Pope say nay Princes be not supreme to do what they list in religion but only free from the Popes iurisdiction The feare of God and not the practises of Popes must keepe Princes from doing euill The other toucheth our duetie to the Prince not the Princes duety vnto God The Prince beareth the sword vnder and not aboue God Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 22. Epist. 55. The spirituall regiment of the soule is properlie Christes and not the piests The Preachers functioÌ„ excelleth the Princes in perfection comfort but not in power to commaund or meanes to compell The same god forceth by the Princes sword that teacheth by the preachers mouth * Iohn 3. * Heb. 12. The kingdom is not aboue the Church though the Prince punish wicked priests The true sheepeheard is only Christâ— the rest are his seruantes and not the owners of the sheepe * 1. Pet. 5. Princes in their vocatioÌ„ be shepheards and beare the staffe to compel where the voice will not serue 1. Chron. 11. Psal. 78. The Prince is bound to obey the preachers worde if he speak truth and so is the Preacher bound to obey the Princes Lawes if they be good 1. Thes. 4. Aug. Epist 166. Princes be no iudges of Religion S. Cyprians words alleadged without his meaning Cypr. lib. 1. Ep. 3 Cyprian allowed the people to reiect their Bishop if hee were vnworthy Lib. 1. Epist. 4. Cypr. lib. 1. ep 4. Though the Bishop of Rome tooke his part Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 22. The Prince not free from Christes Preceptes Princes must hear the word and receiue the Sacraments in such sort as God hath appointed The Preacher is prescribed how he shall minister the Sacramentes not how hee shall depose Princes We deny this argument Excommunication made a wrest to lift Princes out of their seates The seruant must not thinke himselfe superiour to all that his master may commaund In vaine seeke they reasons to make the Priest superiour to the Prince whom God himselfe hath made subiect to the Prince Apol. cap. 4. Sect. 23. They harp on Christs priesthoode as if they were Christes own fellowes in his priestly dignitie Christ hath no higher title than the king of glorie and Prince of the world to come Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 23. The communion of Saints consisteth not in obedience to the Pope Nor in externall rites and ceremonies The true communion of the church The communion of the Church not dissolued by the varietie of rites Epist. 118. Euseb. lib. 5. câ— 26. Ibidem Euseb. lib. 5. ca. 23. The Church from the beginning had diuersitie of rites Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 22. Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 22. Heb. 12. Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 23. The Popes pride first decaied the West Churches Cyprian lib. 3. Epist. 13. A number of watchmen in the Church better than one Apol. chap. 4. sect 24. Vsurpers and forrainers The Iesuits cauill at the word Forrainer God is no forrainer to men Soules in heauen be no forrainers Soules in heauen exercise no iurisdictioÌ„ ecclesiasticall nor spirituall on earth Apol. Cap. 4. sect 24. Princes beare the sword in these causes to see that permitted and defended in their realms which Christ commanded None but Princes can giue freedom and protectioÌ„ to these spiritual functions and actions Apolog. Cap. 4. Sect. 25. Generall couÌ„cels were woÌ„t to be assistaÌ„ts vnto Princes not tribunals aboue princes A generall councel must haue the consent of al christian couÌ„tries The late councel of Trent a mere factioÌ„ of the Popes sworne to take his part and content to refer all things to his power Concil Triden Sess. 25. decres de reformatione cap. 21. Item Sess. 7. Such wronges were neuer offered in the Councell of ancient times The Prince for 1200. yeres called general Councels and not the Pope The poore Friers were 18 yeares disputing whether the Pope and his Cardinals were conspiring against the godly Apolog. cap. 4. Sect. 25. We yeld more subiection to Christ his Apostles than they do The Apostles we reuereÌ„ce obey as the messengers of Christ. Distinct. 34. ¶ Lector caus 15. q. 6. ¶ autoritate in gloss Pig Hierar lib. 1. cap. 2. 1. Thes. 2. 1. Thes. 2. Râ—m 1. We owe communion not subiection vnto Councels Reuelat. 22. Cypr. ad Quirinum Peter claimed no subiection to his tribunall In sententijs Concilij Cartha The Popes councels are tyrannicall Many before vs haue refused forraigne tribunall Cypr. in sententijs Concil Car. Ibidem Ibidem Polycrates Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 25. Augustine Concil African cap. 29. Concil African cap. 105. The Britons Gaâ—frid Monemutens lib. 8. ca. 4. Lib. 7. indict 1. Epist. 30. This Bishop of Rome claimed no Tribunall ouer other countries Greg. Lib. 4. Epist. 38. No Tribunall ouer the whole church but onelie Christ. Gregor lib. 6. Epist. 24. The Popes Tribunall made him first forget both God man A Tribunal fit for the diuell him selfe Distict 40. ¶ Non nos glos ibideÌ„ ¶ quis enim Caus. 17. quaest 4. ¶ Si quis Sacrilege to doubt of the Popes fact or dispute of his iudgement Distinct. 19. ¶ Sic omnes Distinct. 22. ¶ Omnes Heresie to mutter against the Popes pride Extrau Iohan 22. ¶ cum inter nonnullos glos ibide◠¶ declaramus Extra Iohan. 22 ¶ quia quondaÌ„ glos ¶ non vt Papa Extrau communium de maioritate obedient ¶ Vnam sanctam Manicheisme and Paganism not to obey the Popes worde Distinct. 81. ¶ Si qui sunt What saide Samuell more of God than the Pope here applieth to himselfe Caus. 25. quaest 1. ¶ violateres Ibidem glos ¶ Blaspheâ—aâ—e Cans 25. quaest 1. ¶ ideo permittente Ibidem No canons but what the Pope maketh or alloweth Ibidem Caus. 25. quaest 1. ¶ generali A breach of the faith to violate the popes decrees 1. Corinth 16. Distinct. 40. ¶ â—i Papa No man must finde fault with the Pope for leading men to hel by heapes Contra 2. Gaudentij Epist. lib. â— cap. 25. The Pope not Patriark ouer England Patriarks not erected by Christ but by consent of Bishops Hiero. in epist. ad Tit. cap. 1. Ibidem Hiero. Euagâ— tom epist. 2. Ibidem Hierom. IbideÌ„ The Patriarks grew by consent and custome Concil Nicen. Cap. 6. Concil Ephes. 1. Decretum postquaÌ„ Cypr. episc accessissent ad concil Patriarks alwayes subiect to Princes their ecclesiastical lawes Concil Chalced. actio 16. Nouel constit 131. Princes gaue Bishops their prerogatiues ouer others Constit. 123. The Prince coÌ„maunded the Patriarks by name This Realme not in the Popes ancient Prouince Inter August epist. 95. IbideÌ„ epist. 96. Beda hist. gentis Angler lib. 2. Câ— 2. The Pope affecting to be Christs vicar neglected his Patriaâ—kdom The Kings of this land