committed in the Church denijng to reason with you what is to be done in the Church till you haue proued your Church to be a true Church established guyded by the officers and lawes of CHRIST so that all your matter is but the fighting with your owne shadowe and flying the question in hand But my purpose is not to follow your gameplay either to iustifie the Donatistes or those learned Pastors neither to reiect the truthes nor maintaine the errors of either of both sides we haue a better foundation to buyld vpon and a surer word to trust vnto it is because you haue no furniture on your self that you set forth this shew and fight vnder other mens names Your sauour is lost if euer you had salt Looke on one of your Arguments how well it wil prooue your matter The Brownistes vse 5. or 6. places of scripture which the Donatistes vsed therfore the Brownistes be Donatistes Let the Brownistes answere for themselues but sure I must deny both Proposition and Consequence For neither do we agree in the application of these with them neither do we aledge all the same places because we alledge some which they alledged for excoÌ„munication of the open knowen obstinat wicked in the Church or separation from the false Church Neither doth it follow that because we alledge some places they did that therfore we are Donatistes If you allow anie separation from Turke or Pope you must agree with Donatistes in some of these scriptures Esaias 52. 2 Corixth 6. And in this your exquisit search you haue had one place alledged yet now which if you had well looked vpon you would haue bene ashamed to haue compared vs to the Donatistes It is written Reuel 18. 2. 3. 4. 5. verses c where your mother Church of ROME with all her Daughters is proclaymed no longer to be rested in or communicated with If your assemblies be such a cage stand in such confusion haue the same ministerie lawes worship c then we must come out of her Where in consideration that you would conningly turne away all places that commaund a separation by other mens expositions and haue not managed your cause in your owne name I will brieflie demaunde whither you wil maintaine these doctrines or no For the convincing whereof I shall either refer you to our haÌ„dling of the 4. transgressions or els gyne you answere when you deale perticularly in your owne name First beginne to set downe vnder your owne hand that these scriptures Come out froÌ„ emongst them Depart out of her Separate your selues c are not vnderstood of a separation both of bodye and minde SecoÌ„dly that the Minister being a swearer drunkerd couetous worldling c he continuing obstinate in his sinne in that estate may be suffred to administer and the godly may coÌ„municate with him in sacramentes and prayer Thirdly that it is lawful for the Minister to delyuer the parties to receiue the people to coÌ„municate with open knowen vnrepentant professed whoremasters multitudes of wicked Fourthly that open sinne may be tollerated in the assemblie Fiftly that when open sinners be common and such persons manie it were no safe to vse the censures of the Church Sixtly that ther may be a separating in heart and coÌ„ming out from them in minde with whome we coÌ„municate in the Church That ther is no polution participation or coÌ„municating with other mens sinnes but either by doing the same euill or consenting in heart to the euill and though they remaine in their open filthines vnrepentant our communicating with them in the sacrament or prayer or the priestes delyuerie of the Sacrament vnto them is no reioycing with them in their sinne no communicating with other mens sinnes no allowance or consenting or approuing of them in euill nor no sinne or transgression in vs. That they which are the Temple of the lyuing God and in the middest of a crooked peruerse nation apearing as lightes in the world hauing the word of life nothing can infect them which they tollerat for vnities sake neither are they put vp in anie straight because God dwelleth in them and walketh amongst them That to separat from such a peruerse and crooked generation were dangerous lest we should separat in spiritual separatioÌ„ from the good such separation were seditious That Dauid was not separat in body from the open wicked vncleane in the sacrifice in his dayes That Isâ—ias himself in one Congregation with them did touch the vncleannes which he reproued in the people That the Apostle Paule the Church of Corinth did tollerate communicate with such as coÌ„mitted fornicatioÌ„ though they repented not but continued in their sinne after due admonition That in policie for feare of schisme excommunication may not be vsed against open obstinat sinners but they may be tollerated communicated with of the godly That when he which for some notorious crime is reprehended hath the multitude his companion it is not healthful to reprehend or excoÌ„municat but to tollerat That the cause person of the tares being vnderstood of the open wicked and vnrepentant doth not preiudicate the cause and person of the wheate growing together in the field and whither you will interpret this of the Church That the cause person of the chaffe doth not preiudicat the cause and person of the corne being together in the same floore vntil the last wynowing the same of the goates sheepe in the pastures the fishes good bad in the net the vessells of honour dishonour The causes person of the chaffe bad fishes goates vessells of dishonour being vnderstood of the open knoweÌ„ wicked whore-masters murderers heretickes Idolators c and the field floore pastures net howse c of the apparant Church and make the inhibition of plucking vp the tares a coÌ„mandement then is not only the censures of the Church admonition excommunication c but the vse of the magistrats sword not only needlesse but vtterly vnlawfull to be exercised against anie transgression Let Mr. GIFFARD see how he is plunged in Anabaptistrie Athisme and blasphemous contradiction of the whole reueiled will of God for the cutting downe of sinne But let Mr. GIF or his Ordinarie in their owne name subscribe these foresaid Positions and he shal heare our answere We wil not confute them in the persons of dead men We then conclude this point thus that Mr. GIFFARD hath ignorantly skambled about the sinnes arising in the Church and the order of reprehension when all our question is of a separation from a false Church consisting of the world of Athiestes Papistes heretickes and all sortes of prophane not gathered vnto CHRIST So that he hath but fought with his owne shadow in comparing vs to the Donatistes in this poinct Againe al Augustines reasons are against separtioÌ„ in y e Church without discreet and orderly vsing of the power of CHRISTs by the censure of excommunication wheras you all confesse you haue no
of you make the best parte of yt other then a piece of swynes flesh an abhomination to the Lord. Neiâ—her can the perswasion of your coÌ„science either iustifie your worship cleare you or satisfie others especiallie when we see your confciences to tollerat and submit vnto the whole to vse part in respect of your homage and to refuse part for shame of the world Hitherto appeareth no sclander in our Article your vvorship being altogither as yll and worse then we speake of and such indeed as you neither can nor dare abide by And therfore to get ridd of this Article which presseth you so â—ore you chardge vs with matter which you finde not in our Article That we say all read prayer is idolatrie terming it our stuffe spirituall fantasies directly ouerthrowne by the holy scriptures howsoeuer vve may cauil with fond distinctions as the hereticks haue done in other matters From what spirit procedeth al this found you this in our Article If not all these blasphemous reproches must returne to you againe with shame You want a couert when you flie into this bush to hide you When you shall be better instructed of the holy Ghost and haue learned what prayer is you vvill not call spirituall prayers spirituall fantasies neither thrust your Apochripha prayers to be read in the church of God where only Gods word ought to be read But this being beside our Article in nothing disprouing it not iustifying your idolatrous worship vsed in your assemblies we leaue the further clearing of this to him to vvhome it more perticularly belongeth And we for euerie thing you haue as yet brought must remaine cleared of all the sclanders and reproches you haue cast out against vs your assemblies still charged and obstinatly guyltie of a popish erronious and idolatrous worship thrust vppon them according to our Article and you not a Minister but a defendor of this trumperie resisting the truth and blaspheming vs for defending the truth THE 2 fault is That all the prophane multitude without exception of anie person are admitted reteined into the bozome of the Church The most Churches in England want godly Pasoors and there all are admitted it may be he that admitteth is the worst in the companie But ther be manie greater smaler Congregations where the Pastor doth keepe back some for ignorance and some for spotted life vntil they ameÌ„d as I my â—elf haue knowne 〈…〉 repelled from the Sacrament in one stocke and not admitted at all But you will say by what right doth the 〈◊〉 this I say that the Book of common prayer doth expreslie command that all such as lyue vngodly shal not be admitted But then you will say they be admitted to come vnto prayers with the rest Not if they be excoÌ„municated iustly as sondrie are Againe this will hardly be reteined of all that know the truth that the prayer or worship of the faithfull is poluted if ther be prophane men in companie especially we that caÌ„not remedie the matter There were but a few true worshippers frequented the Temple emong multitudes of prophane vngodly men But what can you aledge more thÌ„ the Anabaptists did at the first whie they seperated themselues would you haue priuate men reforme the Temple or not come there HERE you confesse that the most Churches in England want godly Pastors and that there all are admitted and that he that admitteth them is the worst of the companie Thus you make the most Churches in England in a verie bad estate and so far forth you affirme our Article But yet you know some Churches where the Pastor hath repelled for ignorance spotted life to the number of 20. or 30. from the Sacrament c. This verie rare thing being graunted you what insueth therof Doth this disproue that eueÌ„ there and in the best of your Churches the prophane multitudes are not receiued into reteined in the bozome bodie of your Churches Were there no more prophane â—ow yee but these 20. or 30. you speake of in Ye Parish or were not they elsewhere receiued to the Sacrament But to take a more direct course with you and to proue our Article at once Know you anie in those Parishes you speake of or in the Realme of England vnbaptised And is not Baptisme a SacrameÌ„t belonging to the church wherby all the faithful their â—eede enter into yt Then all being baptised it followeth that all are receiued into the bodie of your Church Now being once receiued in they can no way be cast out but by excommunication And it is manifest that the Parson with al his Parish haue not the powre which Christ hath left vnto his Church to excommunicate anie offendor be he neuer so obstinate or notorious no nor to redresse anie enormitie that is laide vpon them by the times And thus the other part of our Article is confirmed That all are reteined in the bozome of your Church And now to your suspension or prohibition from the Sacrament You wil haue vs aske you by what right the Minister doth this In deed this would be knowne for if it be in the nature of excoÌ„munication it were no small presumption in the Minister to arrogate such absolute authoritie to himself But all this your answere cleareth The Booke of coÌ„mon prayer you say doth command c. Here may not be let passe that euen your owne mouth confesseth that eueÌ„ the best of your Churches Ministers stand vnder obserue vphold this Idoll Whie is y e Bookâ— of coÌ„mon prayer Christs new Testament that you must fetch your warâ—ant directioÌ„ from that Idoll In deed yt is a fitt Portesse for such a Priest and the suspension you vaunt of a fitt toole for such workmen euen the instrument of that foolish Sheepheard If the iudgment of God were not vpon your right eie your right arme you might see how your Lordes the Bishopps dresse you and perceiue how this weapon they allow you wanteth both edge poinct yt is so rebuted by them that neuer a one in the Parish setteth a flie by yt Againe one word of M. CoÌ„missaries mouth can heale the greatest wound you caÌ„ make with yt The next thing that you wil haue vs to say is That they be admitted to come to prayer with the rest For this you haue a cunning solution redie Not you say if they be iustly excoÌ„mâ—nicat as sondrie are See how God ensnareth you in your owne words and how hard a bad cause is to defend though you make both our Questions your owne Answers as it pleaseth you First here is to be obserued That you subscribe not in secret but openly iustifie the Comissaries excoÌ„municatioÌ„ for other meanes haue your Sinagogs none the Parson Church-wardens Side-men Quest-men being sworne seruants and the whole Parish standing in subiectioÌ„ to his Antichristian Court. The is to be obserued what good Sheepherds you be that yield your sheepe to this rauening wolfe
they haue left as an absolute patterne for al actions of the Church vnto the worlds end and to hold them accursed men or Angels that teach any thing besides that or to varie from the same Neither what signes or miracles soeuer they shall doe may we hold them Propheâ—s seing they persuade yea enforce to idolatrie apostasie as by their publick worship appeareth And as to Euangelistes that office is too meane base for these fellowes The Euangelistes toke their caling sending and whole directioÌ„ from the Apostles neither swarued from the same in any thing but faithfully deliuered to the Churches those rules they receiued and assisted theÌ„ in the practize therof These men in that they haue no such caling to their office neither doe so execute yt not caling the Church vnto or helping them in but drawing them from vtterly forbidding them the practize of those rules ordinances the Apostles left teaching bringing in setting vp and inforcing their owne or other humane deuises ordinances vpoÌ„ y e church in stead therof and that in such high waightie matters as the bringing in a new strange Ministrie Ministration Worship and Gouernement For all which causes reasons many other which might be drawen from the rules of CHRISTS Testament and their whole worke and doings which in nothing accordeth to the true patterne we must hold them false Apostles and Prophets counterfeite Euangelistes deceiptful worckmen builders Neither yet if we but as fleightly examine them by compare them vnto the rules of Christes Testament shall we finde them to execute any of the ordinarie permanent offices of the Bishops belonging vnto Christes Church as the Pastors Teachers Elders office A true christian Pastor ought to be chosen of some one peculiar flocke where after due proofe he is to be publickly ordeined receiued Vnto which peculiar flocke he is bownde by couenaÌ„t to administer attend Neither doth his Pastorall dutie ministrie and chardge extend to more flockes or Churches at one tyme then that one wherof he is chosen Pastor Neither may a true Pastor aduance himself either in titles or power aboue or ouer other christian Pastors his fellowe bretheren howsoeuer he haue receiued a greater measure of giftes by so much he ought to behaue himself the more lowly and to apply himself the more carefully diligently to serue the Lord with the same according to his pleasure appoinctment within the limites of his caling wherin if he behaue himself faithfully he receiueth praise if not reproofe censure of the whole flock accordingly But now these Arch and Lord Bishops neither haue any certaine ministrie ouer or in any one peculiar flocke neither anie such 〈…〉 by or in any one Congregation but are elected either by the 〈◊〉 Colledge of the Deane Chapter or ells by the Prince consecrate invested inthronised or instawled with I know not how manie popish rites trincketes ceremonies belonging thervnto whose verie ordinarie attire is so popish ridiculous and fâ—nde as they passe not in the streates without the wonderment skorne of young and olde Their ministerie also is not limited and tyed to one certaine office or to one certaine flocke but as they exercise sondrie offices so doe they it ouer in sondrie Churches preaching administring the Sacraments where and when they liste of their pontifical aucthoritie and ceasing againe from preaching c. at their owne pleasures when how longe they list Againe some of them exerciseth absolute aucthoritie ouer al no one of them but ouer many hindreth Churches Ministers ouer all causes and doctrines to cite sommon suspend silence excommunicate absolue emprison â—equester conâ—iscate at their pleasure whom and wherfore they liste without accompt or controlement no not by the Princes royall Writts and Courtes to which euery soule ought to be subiect They impose vpon all Churches and Ministers their owne deuises for the publicke worship administration stinting and limiting the Pastor what wordes to reade and say what scriptures to reade on this and that daye through the yeere They limite and restraine the doctrine of the Pastor from speaking against anie thing by publick aucthoritie commanded They determine and dispose of all the doctrines and causes of all Churches at their owne will no man so hardie to gaiâ—e say or to cal in question anie thing they affirme or to denie anie thing they commande or forbid There is nothing iudged error in the Church of ENGLAND but what they iudge to be error be yt neuer so grosse popish blasphemouse nor anie thing compted truth which they pronounce error be yt neuer so holy sounde and warranted by Gods worde The whole ministrie doctrine publick administration causes and censures of the Church of ENGLAND are wholie in their handes to commande restraine or execute vpon al persons and they themselues subiect to no reproofe liable to no censure Now let any iudge that knoweth what belongeth to the office entrance and administratioÌ„ of the Pastors office whether these Bishops possesse this office be rightly caled and entered to the same and faithfully administer execute the same The teachers office for the reasons aboue-said they cannot hold or chalendge both in regarde of the fastuous titles inordinate power and aucthoritie which they vsurpe exercise ouer all the ministerie euen such as they cal Pastors and ouer all Churches causes censures c which can at no hand be ioyned or agree vnto the christiaÌ„ Teachers office As also for that they their ministrie and office belongeth not to any one peculiar Congregation The like reasons maie be drawen from their Popish entrance and administration seing they take vpon them to deliuer the Sacraments and attend not vnto doctrine only or diligently giuing ouer ceasing to preach wheÌ„ they list neither submit the doctrines they teach to the ceÌ„sure tryal of other Prophets by the Scriptures For al which reasons and sondrie other they cannot be said to haue or exercise the christian Teachers office Last of al the office of gouerning Elders they haue not for all the same reasons In that they are not chosen of belong not vnto any perticular Congregation to which they should be bownde by duetie to attend Neither euer did we reade in al Christes Testament of any Bishops or Ministers setting aside those temporarie offices of Apostles Prophets Euangelists that where chosen did attend or minister vnto diuers or more then one Congregation or office at one time Certaine rules being there giuen for their election ordination and administration of in one Congregation with manifold admonitions exhortatioÌ„s to sture them vp vnto diligeÌ„ce labour and watchfulnes in that office place they are caled vnto as a worke enough for him that thinketh himself most able to dischardge it And sure most monstruous impossible it were for one man faithfully to attend diuers Congregations Except they can also
Ministrie and ministration they are all like to proue as wee haue affirmed them strange false forged antichristian such as belong not vnto and cannot be exercised in anie christian Church and then let Mr. Giffard see whether that grieuous conclusion will follow and fal vpon the men vpon whom the marcke of the Beast is â—ownde that ministrie which is ordayned by proceded from and standeth vnder the throne of these antichristian Bishops In the meane while let vs in a verie few wordes consider of the rest of the ministerie in the Church of England in their order WE would gladly learne of him what office in the Church of God Chancelors and Commissaries may be said to exercise for we confesse that in Christes Testament we neuer read of their names or offices they are strangers there and we in all the worlde knowe not from whence they came or who brought them into the Church if not their Father the Pope or durste there retaine them but these his children successors the Bishopps A lardge power they haue and exercise ouer all parrish Churches their Ministers and Members to keepe a iudiciall Courte to cite coÌ„uent trie punish by muâ— ct iudge imprison absolue purge not only for ecclesiastical causes as the neglect of their ceremonies and trinckets and for not duelie reading and obseruing their iniunctions seruice-booke but also for ciuile causes yea criminatory and iudicial causes such as by the lawe of God deserue death and only belong to the Princes royall aucthoritie to whom therfore God hath committed his sworde Whose iudgment seate aucthoritie for anie priuate person to vsurpe is iudged rebellion both by the lawe of God and of this land For all that take the sworde shall dye in the sworde Math. 26. 52. Againe these Chauncelors and Commissaries are Ciuilians laye men as they cal them not Priestes therfore we meruaile how they came to exercise such an high ministrie ouer and in the Church The same we say of their other delegate ciuile Doctors of their Courtes trayne of Aduocates Proctors Registers c. We finde in the TestameÌ„t of Christ no mention in the Church of Christ no vse of such Offices Officers Courtes to decide their coÌ„trouersies to execute their censures iudgments These handle both ecclesiastical and ciuile causes mixtlie after a most corrupt and litigious maner amongst whom al things are venal in their Courtes c wherof in due place sufficeth it here to finde them in name office and vse counterfeit forged false without mention or warrant in Gods worde such as not Christ but Antichrist deuised brought in As to the persons in their high commission they are of two sortes chieflie ecclesiastical and partlie for countenance and fashion sake ciuile Of the ecclesiastical we haue aboue entreated Neither finde wee that anie ciuile person may exercise anie ecclesiastical office or function as to ouer-see so manie Churches to decide and determine ecclesiastical causes or to execute the censures of the Church as by way of office or by vertue of anie humane commission especially after that vngodlie maner which is in al things so contrarie to the order Christ hath instituted so contrary to the faith power and libertie of Christes Church as were not hard to shewe if we should examine their procedings by the rules of Gods worde And great ruth it is that so noble and honorable personages should be so highly abused by these wicked Bishops The Lorde in mercie shew them their deceipts the error and daunger of their wayes Yet of this gouerning ministrie remayneth the Arch head Deacon of the Church of England to be considered of who is no smale officer of this Church hauing and keeping his solemne iudiciall Court Synode and procedings in such ecclesiastical causes as fal within his consideration with absolute power in his owne name also to cite sommon iudge and punish all such parish Churches with their Parsons and Ministers as fal within his limites To impose taskes vpon Pastors what scriptures to reade priuately euerie daye what to conne by heart and to take accompt of them at his Synodes accordingly This Arch-Deacon also if such be his learning that he can may administer the worde and Sacramentes and haue a benefice or two for neede Howsoeuer he may pleade and boaste of his antiquitie aswell as the Arch-Bishop and of the great cause of his erection and necessarie vse of his office c. Yet seing we finde no mention of his name or vse of his office in all the Testament of CHRIST seing we finde there no such Heade Arch-Deacons with such stately Courtes and absolute iutisdiction and that not ouer many Deacons but manie of their Pastors yea manie whole Churches we must or rather the Lorde hath giuen the same sentence of them that is giuen of their fellowes aboue-said That they are not the ordinance or ministrie of CHRIST but of Antichrist euen the heades and limbes of that Beaste that wilbe held within no limites or boundes in no order or callings but breake corrupt and confounde all lawes boundes order and offices as they luste CHRIST himself is the only heade of all his Ministers whether Pastors Teachers Deacons c and they againe his members of their part The christian Deacon is to attend to the faithful collection and distribution of the benâ—uolence of the Sainctes and not to such Court-keeping ouer the Church ministrie and Sainctes He is to attend in his function to that peculiar flocke wherof he is chosen a Deacon and not in this maner to intrude and incroach vpon manie Churches A christian Deacon is to kepe himself within the boundes of his owne office in sobrietie and not to intermeddle with the Pastors office also with the ministration of the worde and sacramentes yea to exalt himself and vsurpe power and iurisdiction ouer his superiors not only ouer many Pastors but ouer manie whole Churches Thus haue we taken a superficiall veiwe or rather as yt were a sodaine blush of the reigning Ministerie of the Church of England leauing the furder inuestigation and demonstration of the manifold deformities therof to their furder diligence to whom God hath giuen greater knowledge and opportunitie leauing place also vnto Mr. GIFFARD or anie of that false hierarchie to make defence and iustification of these poyntes wherin they are here chardged by the worde of God Which if they can doe then let them be held excused and vs iustly chardged with impudent and wicked sclander In the meane while I haste to the second sort of their Ministrie THe next sorte of the ministrie of the Church of England is the Collegiat or idle Ministrie which may be diuided or rather distinguished because sometimes they are mixed ioyned one man being a master of a College and a Deane a fellowe of a house a Prebend and each of them haue a Parsonage or two for a neede into these two kindes Academical and Cathedral The third sort
sinne or enormitie of the tyme without censure or controlement Nay these men are praysed incited and commended for this as the most faithful and godly which maketh both the sectes as well Reformisâ—es as Poâ—â—ificall yearne praise by this vayne and fight with one accorde for their kingdome against Christes faithful seruaÌ„ts whom they cal Brownistes as against a common enimie yea more bitterly then they doe against anie other enimie heretick or wicked person Onlie here in this tubbe if they can keepe their tongues from speaking against their Lords the Bishops their procedings or against anie publicke â—normitie in the Church or common wealth they maie then ease their stomackes against anie meane person or one Priest against an other and rayle their fill These perticular Congregations haue neither power to reproue their doctrines or to censure their persons be the one neuer so hereticall the other neuer so obstinate and needes then must here be a cleane Church I trowe And now how sincerely and purely these learned Priestes Diuines al the rable of them preach Gods Lawe and Christes Gospel to set downe their seueral defaultes ignoraÌ„ces corruptions and vnfaithfulnes were infinite Let the high opeÌ„ wilful breach of al Gods laws by al degrees suffered and vnreproued declare and witnesse to their faces Let their execrable Idolls and idolatries their abhominable worship innumerable deuises their taking the Lordes name in vayne their common swearing in euerie matter and tryall for euerie cause and triffle yea without anie cause their common open blaspheming and cursing yea transfiging the holy and dreadfull name of God in their anger and miâ—th Their impietie prophannes pride vanitie glottonie excesse idlenes riote playing sporting dauncing c on the Lordes day openly seene suffered vnpunished shew how well they keep and teach the first Table of Gods lawe in the Church of England And for the second let the euil nourture bringing vp of their youth their dissolutenesse irreuerence head strong and incorrigible nature yea their open disobedience contempt of parents and superiours the inordinate walking of all degrees helde within the compasse of no lawes limites callings in the feare and obedience of no person Magistrate Parent Master Let the common quarles frayes foodes tumults blood-shed murder man-slaughter the iarres hatreds contentions debates wrath anger enuying cursing reuiling nicknaming c Let the common and open whoredoms adulteries fornications chambering wantonnes daliance lightnes delicacie and softnes of apparle diet maners to deck prouoke allure their courting intertainement open and secret lust otherwise caled loue most rife as in Sodome Let their open robberies their secret theftes pickings pilferinges their open oppression violence wronge extortion vsurie their vsual deceipt and couen in all bargayning buying selling Let their common customable open and secret lving blaspheming sclandering accusing reproching defaming bringing vp carying and receiuing euil reportes one of an other their false swearing in testimonie their swearing and foreswearing to deceiue euen in euerie triffle And as for couering of wife virgine seruant house land cattle goodes insatiable coueteousnes and greedines heaping and hourding vp treasures contynual purchasing and adding field vnto field yea towne vnto towne till they haue gotten whole countreyes into their possession neuer satiate till their mouth be full of moulde these are the best and only esteemed Christians of the Church of England where coueteousnes is no sinne They that should speake against yt pride intemperance c. should iudge the heart and enter into Gods iudgment seate Let these capital sinnes and transgressions against the lawe of God which are coÌ„mitted without shame or feare either not punished or wrongfully punished murder only excepted which how also yt is wincked at or perdoned I wil not stand vpon let these I say stand vp to the faces of these Priestes Prophets being thus coÌ„monly openly coÌ„mitted in their Church and witnesse how faithfully and sincerely they expounde declare the lawes iudgmentes of God how carefully they watch ouer the soules of men and gouerne the Church that haue not against all or any one of these sinnes any spirituall weapons or ecclesiasticall censure in a readines So that if the Magistrates sworde which yet wanteth an eye to guide it did not represse some sinnes there should be no humane peace as there now is no christian order in their Church And now if I should here stand to diriue the seueral and speciall kindes of sinnes which as riuers are diuided and flowe forth from all these generall heades and as a deluge couer the face of this whole land yt were infinite but what then to diuide those riuers againe into their perticular droppes namely such perticular persons as commit the same yea such and so many perticular tymes as they commit the same who then should nomber them All these sinners and sinnes are in this Church by these Leaches these Prophets healed with the plaister of peace with the bloode and merites of CHRIST though there be neither faith nor repentance they are all good christians Likewise if I should here stand to relate and recite the falshode deceipt and hypocrisie of these Priestes let me here be vnderstoode euen of those best esteamed forewarde learned Preachers commonly called Good men how conningly and craftily they teach the lawe neuer touching or offending their auditorie at leaste the mightie or rich of them be their sinnes neuer so heynous and manifest especially if they will countenance esteeme feaste and heare these Preachers they are in them but infirmities and imperfections be they neuer so deiplie set incurable And againe how sharply they will inveigh against others which thincke not so wel of them especially if they be not of power to doe them hurâ—e nor of will to doe them good howe they wil speake against such sinnes of the second Table as their rich auditorie are not at al or least addict vnto and beate them downe as with thunder from heauen though they suffer as greate in them and their houses beforâ— their face vncontrolled Yea what fine shiftes excuses and veales they will finde out to extenuate excuse or hide the sinnes of these greate rich persons in whose houses all excesse gloâ—onie ryot pride idlenes gaming shalbe but good hospitalitie answearable to their estates honest recreation And this veale of recreation must couer al their heathen sportes within doores and without though it be all the day yea al their life longe though they drawe neuer so many idle beholders or idle assistantes to keepe them companie to followe their dogges hawkes c as their only caling profession Yea go these Esawites their wiues and children neuer so disguisedly in their strange prodigious shapes newe fangled aâ—tires with their infinite deuises curiosities it is but according to their degree sexe age calling with infinite such like Also if I should stand to relate the sondrie shiftes of these Reformist Preachers these sighers for reformation these
against vs euen now as fresh as if he had not rayled enough or all in his writings and booke before But seing his reproches want both profe and truth they deserue neither refutation nor repetition Neither can they preiudize our holie profession or vs or anie way iustifie or excuse him before God or man but rather add to his feareful accompt before God and euidently shew vnto all men by what spirit his heart and pen were guided at the writing of these contumelious answeres Wherein yet most strange it is how he could take occasion to â—ade vs with all this vituperie for propounding these godly articles holy duties especially hauing shewed withall such iust causes of our separation from their assemblies But let vs nowe take a viewe of his reasons wherewith he hath disproued our endeuours in these articles and see whether they be of as great validitie as those wherewith he hath approued their assemblies in the transgressions by vs obiected The articles answeres and our former replie I will not here againe insert referring to the copies aboue HIs cauilling trifling about these wordes CHRISTES Kingdome in his former answeare to our first Article together with his hypocrisie in seeming to labour for CHRISTES gouernment were by vs layde open in our replie as also his vniust surmize that we should hold that CHRISTES Kingdome could not be in anie except they had that his outward ecclesiasticall gouernment was there by vs fullie answered and cleared He nowe in his second answere as vaynely endeuoreth to cleare himself of his former cauilling and hypocrisie by denijing the necessarie sense of his former wordes and by propounding two newe questions vnto vs instead of answering our two questions vnto him which we rather expected Let the indifferent reader iudge whether to all intendement he made not CHRISTES Kingdome only inwarde and his ecclesiasticall gouernment but an help for the preseruation of his inward kingedome in the first parte of his former answeare howsoeuer afterward he vouchsalfed yt to be a part of his Kingedome Vnto his contumelious blasphemous questions we answere That when he shall haue dulie conuinced vs of heresies or schisme to haue condemned a true ministrie to haue falslie accused a true Church then we will confesse our selues to be more then ignorant and rash till then all these reproches shall but followe his other sinnes into Gods sight to hasten his owne iudgment Our questions also whilest they remaine vnanswered and as we thinck vnanswerable must still lay open their bad estate and hypocrisie In that whilest they remaine antichristian Ministers in the false Church And haue so longe continued vnder Antichristes yoke and ecclesiasticall gouernment they cannot be said either to haue or sincerelie to labour for CHRISTS ecclesiasticall gouernment as he and they then pretended And here by the way I must drawe two dangerous positions and in the same obserue great contrarietie in Mr. G. vnto himself First in that they and he pretended to laboure and had so longe sued to Parliamentes for CHRISTES gouernment or discipline they confesse the absence and wante of the same For a fond thing it were to labour and sue for that which alreadie they haue Then if they wante and haue not CHRISTES ecclesiasticall gouernment and receiue an other ecclesiasticall gouernment ouer their Church and ministrie which is not his yt must needes be a false and antichristian gouernment And so they and their whole Church by their owne confession stand vnder Antichristes yoke and gouernment and haue not CHRIST their King to rule ouer them except they can shew that CHRIST doth rule in his Church by Antichrists officers and gouernmeÌ„t which I thinck will be harde to prooue and then are they and their Church in a bad estate As also Mr. G. herein contrarie to himself who erewhile affirmed this present gouernment of these BB s. their hierarchie and Courtes to be the true ecclesiasticall gouernment of Christ. And that they were not antichristian Furder he hath obserued reserued one special poyncte in our replie That the kingdome of God may be in the scattered faithfull which as yet haue not the ecclesiasticall discipline This we graunt neuer denied although Mr. G. whatsoeuer he now say then surmized the contrarie of vs or ells had smale cause so vehemently to haue refuted this opinion But we are content that yt shall now remaine to his vse THe second article of seeking Gods true worship he granteth that al men ought to approue Being demanded in our Replie howe then he coÌ„tinued in idolaâ—rie a Minister of idollatrie prophecied in BAAL and pleaded for BAAL Or howe he could approoue our article and yet condemne vs of schisme and heresie because we forsake their false deuised idolatrous worship and seek to worship God according to his worde To those he answereth that when we haue proued their worship to be idolatrie and that they prophecie in BAAL and pleade for BAAL then he is content that men take vs for no schismatickes or hereticks And this I hope we haue in this treatise donne hauing shewed their worship to be deuised by man idolatrous abhominable their ministrie to be as false diriued from and exercised vnder their BAALS these Bishops And how earnestly Mr. G. hath pleaded for these Baals their throne and all the enormities proceding from the same these his owne bookes shall testifie So that I hope we are now cleared with all men and shal hereafter be spared of him from the odious accusations of schisme and heresie THe 3. 4. and 5. Articles after Mr. G. his diuision tending to one effect and begetting but the same coÌ„mon difficulties may together be handled The chief controuersies about the same are these two 1. Whether these publicke assemblies of their parishes be antichristian Babilonish 2. Then whether the Church consisting but of priuate men may in this estate erect establish amongst them such offices ordinances of CHRIST as he hath instituted to the ministri gouernment of his Church Of the first both Mr. G. I haue now lardgly set downe our mindes so that I leaue yt as fitter for iudgment then anie furder discussing in this place The reasons here repeated 1. How their Churches are from antient discent within the Couenant 2. And how their Church in this estate hath begotten and nourished children vnto God as the Martyres haue bene alreadie often propounded and vrged by him in his book I hope by that time he hath wel considered of the heresies sacrilege and absurdities of the first and of the vayne assumption and litle consequence of the second as they are set downe in our answeres he shal haue litle cause to vse them so often or to vrdge them with such confidence bitterness For when Mr. G. shal prooue that a Nation so highly apostatate fallen from the faith so deiply plunged into such execrable idolatries abhominations hardnes of heart as in the papistical corruptioÌ„ stil
established church vizt such as are in captiuitie sicknes age or in such times place as they knowe not where to finde one day of the Sonne of man He might aswell conclude that because God is able doth saue some in the false Church Therfore priuate meÌ„ ought not to forsake the false Church God is able to saue some in dispertion out of the established Church Therfore priuate men ought not to seek the established Church THe last greatest matter is that we runne before the Princes commandement whose dutie it is to reforme Churches Priuate men might not so much as sweepe them much-lesse build them For this is to erect a state gouernmeÌ„t because the power of the Church is both publicke greate We haue aboue shewed that y e Church hath Gods coÌ„mandement authoritie alwaies to erect Christes ministri gouernment amongst them That the Church in this estate consisteth only of of priuate men neither are there anie true Ministers anie where to be found vpon the earth neither any extraordinarie Ministers to be looked for seing they are long since ceased Therfore the Church in this estate consisting only of priuate men ought to erect this ministerie and gouernment ells should they also cease and neuer be had againe vpon the earth and so should there neuer be any established Church ministrie Sacramentes c agayne in this world yet here must be noted by the way that Mr. G. runneth too much vpoÌ„ and wresteth too far these wordes priuate men when we speake of the Church consisting only of priuate men Now vnto his crimination the Church hauing this coÌ„mandement aucthoritie giuen of God vnto the worldes end we before shewed him that no Prince might take it away or without great wronge hinder them from the performance hereof yea that the seruantes of God ought not to be staied from doing the coÌ„mandements of God vpon anie restrainte or persecution of any mortall man whosoeuer For this we alleadged the examples and practize of the Apostles who then had bene guiltie of the same disobedience rebellion if Princes in this busines had bene to be stayed for or their restrainte had bene a sufficent let yea that persecution and the crosse of Christ were vtterly abolished if the Church and faithfull were not to proceede in their dueties vntill Princes giue leaue We shewed also that the obedience and practize of Gods will was no disobedience or preiâ—dize to the Prince That we attempted nothing beyonde our calling neither transgressed in our calling We medled not with the reformation of anie publick abuse either in the common wealth or in their Church otherwise then by prayers vnto God and godly exhortation We only according vnto Gods commandement refrained from their idolatrie and other publicke euils and assembled together in all holy and peaceable maner to worship the Lord our God and to ioyne our selues together in the faith vnto mutual duties This we shewed to be the duetie of euerie priuate man that would be saued to leaue the false Church and to seeke the true Church And being thus assembled ioyned in the faith we shewed it to be their dutie together to seeke that ministrie and gouernment which Christ hath left vnto his Church and for the Church to erect the same VNto the Apostles proceeding without the licence of Princes he maketh a double answere One in respect of the persons of the Apostles that they were furnished with a special coÌ„mission and authoritie from CHRIST himself to set vp his kingdome which commission and power the Pastors and Teachers successiuely receiued deliuered ouer to others so that priuate men may not haue this power The other in respect of those Princes in the Apostles tyme which were all heathen and therfore it had bene bootlesse to sue to them But where there is a christian Prince that holdeth the fundamentall poynctes of the christian faith though otherwise this christian Prince doe erre in some matters of doctrine or touching the rules of discipline euerie godly priuate man is to keepe a good conscience not breaking the vnitie and peace of the Church But not to take publicke authoritie to reforme THese instances of the persons of the Apostles and Princes as they are litle to the purpose so doe they him as litle good If the commandement of God were sufficient warrant to the Apostles to doe their worke though al the Princes of the world resisted then must the commandement of the same God be of the same effect to all other instrumentes whom it pleaseth the Lorde to vse in their callings to his seruice also though all the Princes in the world should withstand and forbid the same For neither dignitie of the persons that are vsed make the commandement of God of more authoritie or necessitie to be donne neither yet the greatnes or the goodnes of the persons that withstand this commandement of God make yt of lesse authoritie or necessitie Onlie let the seruantes of God be sure to haue the commaundement and calling of their God for that they doe and then they neede not feare the Powers that are placed of of God for the praise and not for the punishment of the good Our question then is not whether priuate men may doe that which is not their dutie to which they haue no commanndement as this accuser surmizeth to bring vs into danger and hatred But whether they may not doe that which God commanndeth them within the limites of their caling As to forâ—ake idolatrie and the false Church to seke the true worship of God in the true Church though all the Princes of the world whether belieuers or infidels should forbid the same And this we affirme to be the duetie of euerie perticular person whosoeuer forbid We say not now that priuate men may reforme the false Church abolish publick idolatrie or depose a false ministrie that the Kinge setteth vpp This were to breake the boundess of their calling to intrude vpon the Princes office and great cause had they then to feare for he beareth not the sworde in vayne Againe our question is not whether it is the office and dutie of Princes to see abuses reformed both in the Church and common Wealth which we thinck no man to be so ignorant or barbarous to denie except the Anabaptistes But vvhether the Church ought not now amongst themselues freely to practize CHRISTS Testament either in erecting his officers and ordinances or in reforming or correcting anie fault or abuse that ariseth amongst them vvithout staying for the Princes licence yea though the Prince should vpon the paynes of death forbid This we affirme to be the dutie of euerie perticular Congregation CHRIST hauing therfore giuen vnto each and all of them his sacred power and aucthoritie to binde and to loose in earth and to doe all thinges whatsoeuer he hath commaunded them vvith promise to be with them vnto the end of the world He hath giuen them the
discipline to execute neither belong CHRISTS ordinances to your Antichristian ministerie Babilonish assemblies which we denie to hold the head CHRIST in this their subiection to Antichristes ministerie ordinances worship It is but then your ignorance to make comparison betwene the Donatistes and vs. To the Worship THat the Donatistes did separat themselues from as corrupted a worship as the Brownistes doe Mr. GIFFARD wil stand to affirme Saith he there were prayers oblations for the dead then significatiue ceremonies superstitious signing of themselues with the signe of the Crosse c. To which we answere that Mr. GIFFARD affirmed in the 6. page of his booke that the Donatistes departed disorderly out of the Church condemning yt not for any poinct of doctrine for therein the other Churches they did agree Now here he would make comparison betwene them vs in disalowing the worship But it seemeth Mr. GIFFARD holdeth not anie doctrine to be contayned in the worship which indeed ought to coÌ„teine nothing els and sure it is a strang worship that is not grounded vpon doctrine The second thing in this place we will note is the time of these corruptions in the worship namely as he reckoneth within two hundreth yeares after CHRIST If their worship were then as corrupted as ours is now we merueil how you will defend the platforme of your Church gouernment from that tyme that was so corrupt calling yt the primatiue Church Your fellow Priests Argumentes from the primatiue Church as thy falslie call those times will be of small weight if you make their worship as corrupt as this deriued from Antichrist In the 44 page he graunteth as much of the gouernment that it was then thus corrupt when our tyme-seruers will only cleaue to that paterne and neither he nor they to the Testament of CHRIST Thirdly he hath forgotten his scope Argument He should by his promise haue prooued that the Doâ—â—tistes we were of one iudgment in this poinct and that they made the false worship one principal cause of their separation as we do so that he hath forgotten himself in this place as a man not knowing where to make shew of somthing Next where Mr. GIFFARD grantes that in those assemblies where the worship is idolatrous it is lawfull to separat a mans self he contrary to those expositions of the 2 Corinth 6. and other places to that effect now granteth a separation in body and minde both I will not rebuke him nor charge him of inconstancie because I perceiue him to contradict his holy Pastors of these tymes where he seeth them to erre But he by and by returneth to his vomit againe thus Ther are many great corruptions in the worship before it come to that where certeine fundamental poincts of doctrine are holden the worship cannot be idolatrous but in the deepest defection in poperie ther were certeine fundamentall poincts holden as he faith in an other place wherby they were stil in the Church and vnder the Conenant therfore ther is no idolatrous or blasphemous worship that may in the Papistes Church be separated from Mr. GIFFARD may be a good subiect but sure his groundes of doctrine are popish and pernitious We here demaund of Mr. GIF whither such corruptions errours as he speaketh of might be of the godly that knew them such be offered vp by themselues or communicated with in the Church And Mr. GIF must giue vs leaue to say it cannot be their worship was so corrupt as yours consisting of so manie patched deuises of your learned Popes so long hatched and by so manie heades as haue out of that fordge of Sathans minting howse contriued yt euen out of Antichristes treasurie of deceites As for errours that haue no good foundation we may shew him twentie for one Hitherto then Mr. GIFFARD his bretheren that haue separated from the Church of ROME as they would pretend yet retayning still that worship are bretheren with the Donatistes as he pleaseth to deride that holy name of bretheren To the Ministerie THe Donatistes cried out that the Churches from which they separated had no true Ministers but that they were all false Prophets Iudasses persecutors of the iust generations of vipers because they said they had their ordination from them that were such The Brownistes lift vp their voyces with all their might call vs Baalls Priestes the marked seruantes of Antichrist false Prophets seducers and such lyke because as they say we are ordeyned by Antichristian Bishops therfore we be Donatistes Mr. GIFF. his Argument is denyed Ieremie our Sauiour Christ and diuers of the Prophets against Israell did in this maner pull off the visardes of the false Prophets disclosing their wickednes to y e people were they therfore Donatistes or Schismatickes Calvine all of you cry out against the Popes ministerie at ROME are you therfore Donatistes and Schismatickes The matter then must be considered for which they so called them The Donatistes for no other cause then for that some of them were ordeyned by Iudasses and traytours the Brownistes for that these are ordeyned by Antichristian Bishopps which exercise an other spirituall gouernment then CHRISTS Wherein if you had eyes to see there is no comparison betwene their cause ours First the person that did ordeine satâ— in a lawful office as the Donatistes supposed did also ordeine as they thought in maner according to the rule of the word the partie that was ordeined meete for the ministerie the office to which he was called lawfull the administration wherein he was to administer holy and good for anie thing they sawe The contrarie of all which we finde in your ministerie and the thing wherein you would haue vs likened together was neuer our reason which is the wickednes of the mans person that doth of his sole authoritie ordeine for manie Churches which we neither approoue in the Donatistes or you Our exceptions in this case I say hath neuer bene against the person of your Ordinarie although we might iustly Take next time your matter together and looke whose kingdome you administer in what calling office Leitourgie flock and be ashamed of your comparison by so much as your ministeri is more wicked Again you here put the cause of our casting of the Bishops their traine into the lake to be for that they exercise an other discipline then CHRISTES as though this were some small matter which if you put the word gouernment of the Church you shall finde it the denial of CHRIST to reigne in his kingdome a suppression of at his lawes ordinances euen the whole Testament and erection and practising of an other Let him that readeth consider what state all stand in that remaine in this kingdome erected against Christ and what ministerie the seducers in this foraigne priesthoode exercise of God or of the Deuill for CHRIST hath but one ministerie one Gospell one gouernment ouer his Church Now seeing ther is no comparison