Selected quad for the lemma: cause_n
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A75689
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A Combate betweene tvvo seconds. One for obeying the present government, the other, the second part of a demurrer, undeservedly called religious.
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Ascham, Antony, d. 1650.
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1649
(1649)
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Wing A3918C; Thomason E562_16
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10,612
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20
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troubles his Treatise the businesse is neare at an end For the Author beleeves there is no probability in sight and therefore it seemes he may have leave of the Demurrer to approve of obedience to the present Government And herein it is desired that this irresolute writer would resolve himselfe better out of those that as it seemes have more knowledge and judgement to resolve then himselfe and particularly that in this point of probability and possession and others of kin to it he would looke into Mr. Aschams discourse and either beleeve it or confute it It is strange that these men should swallow that worke of many sheets and straine at this single one But indeed till that Booke be answered Calvin Bucer Peter Martyr Gualter Paraeus confuted with the grounds and reasons of those judicious Casuists who though of the Church of Rome yet in these cases of justice not in controversie betweene us cannot be rejected as partiall the cause stands good though the Demurrer in his bad language calls it bad but leaves it good by his doubtfull sayings and his weake reasons Pag. 3. He acknowledgeth When an unlawfull power commands a man perhaps may obey So perhaps the Doctrine of obeying unlawfull power may be true and the Demurrer goes about to confute a Doctrine which himselfe confesseth may be true And then with another perhaps he saith That Judah knowing none of the Regall Seed surviving perhaps Submitted to Athaliahs Government A most frivolous and ignorant perhaps For besides that God had promised that Davids seed should not faile 2 Chron. 21. 7. Jehoiada the high Priest knew there was one of that seede alive And why did not he preach this Demurrers Doctrine to the people that they should not obey the present Tyrrant and that by it they established Tyranny betrayed the title of the just Heire But no such 2 Chron. 22. Doctrine appeared but the daughter of Ahab and Jezabel very farre from any Title to the Crown of Judah was obeyed six yeares Besides see here the slightnes of this man whose Doctirne generally is a perhaps and adventure doth not the very Text say Jehoshabeth the high priests wife was Daughter of Jehoram and 2 Chron. 22. 11. sister of Ahaziah the late King And if so was not her Title better then that of Athaliah a stranger Item Pag. 3. He sayes The Author concludes more then he undertook to prove But would the Demurrer be offended if a man promising to give him ten pounds doe make his guift twenty And whereas he would gladly know what difference betweene lawfull and unlawfull powers if both necessarliy must be obeyed Here indeed by confessing his ignorance he might deserve pardon if it were not affected For he might know from the Casuists that the one is given as to a person commanding by Right of Title The other by an interpretative consent and pro tali rerum statu for â—he preservation of the Common-Wealth which is in such a state that it would otherwise be ruined If I must give money to a poore honest man for charity and to a thiefe for safety is there no odds betweene an honest man and a thiefe As for his rejecting the interpretation of Rom. 13. First he argues from a single late writer but shewes not from him what the Text speakes against obeying a Tyrant that wants right but of a Tyrant that does wrong For he writes that this Tyrant is a Terrour to good workes Now we know a Tyrant in Title may be an encouragement to good workes and such there have beene It is commonly said that some of the best lawes were made under Richard the third But Secondly against the Demurrer and his interpretation are the judgement of these Pillers of the Church who understand that this place affirmeth the present powers to be the Ordinance of God and are to be obeyed Thirdly let one Greek word be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Power or Force and the other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Authority or Magistracy Though Nimrod by the former did obtaine the latter Yet Paraeus sayes that his Authority gotten by power was of God And so by vertue of that Text was to be obeyed See that place and others alleadged upon this very Text by the Author in the last Edition and they will abundantly overpoyse this single Doctors opinion both by reasons and Authority Pag. 4. He comes to Caudius and Nero And first saith That the Apostle might meane it of â—ny other pâ—wer abstractâ—dly from the Romanes So that he will have the Apostle most impertinently to tell the Romanes what obedience is to be given by others in another state but not by them in their owne Secondly Let him remember that as Peter Mâ—rtyr saith the Romanes had now gotten the Empire of the world And then what was the state this Demurrer would have the Apostle to meane Thirdly He sayes nothing to Claudius who was set up directly against the Councells and Resolutions of the Senates Neither was there following a free consent But yet further If the Souldiers set up a Governour or Government and a consent be so gotten let this Demurrer talke with his learned Councell and then speak out plainely whether Votes gotten by or under force be valid For in some cases they speake aloud they are not Yet it seemes they are when they may make for their turne Fourthly he speakes of succeeding upon Caesars Title But was not that Title interrupted by a triumvirate And had not Claudius a Sonne when the Souldiers made Nero his Successor Doth not this man betray his maine businesse by yealding That he who is not the Heire may be a lawfull Successor though an Heire be living To the obedience given anciently in this Kingdome and yet continued to lawes of usurpers He answers generally with doubts and supposes according to his irresulute manner and ever and anon comes in which the usuall burden of the Song Oathes and Covenants with a paire of perhaps And whereas he would lay this obedience on the darkenesse of the times by Topery Certainely there were very good Lawyers in times of Popery and in those point Popery did not darken wherein it had nothing to doe Our present Lawyers fetch the maine ground of their profession from Lawyers that were Papists or in times of Popery And it would be a weak and ridiculous answer at a Bar to say That Brâ—cton Fortescue or Ploydon were Papists or under the darkenesse of Popery and therefore their Testimony must be rejected and as little truth as law he shewes in saying that these Lawes have beene ratified by succeeding Parliaments which he should have produced â—ut to Salve all he concludes that perhaps till then not to be judged valid in Law But were they not held valid and obeyed by the Generation that made them and that this man will not alow us to doe But Secondly let me answer him that if he onely say perhaps they were not valid he leaves roome for
A COMBATE betweene TVVO SECONDS One for obeying the Present Government The other the second part of a DEMURRER Undeservedly called RELIGIOUS JAMES 1. 26. If any man among you seeme to be religious and bridleth not his tongue but deceiveth his own heart this mans Religion is in vaine LONDON Printed for John Wright at the Kings Head in the Old-Bayley 1649. A Combate between two SECONDS One for obeying the PRESENT GOVERNMENT The other the second part of a DEMURRER WHen a Scholler of the lower forme doth offend the Usher takes him into his hands for correction And this Demurrer being of the lower forme at least in regard of charity I think I may make bold to bestow some chastisements if not upon him yet upon his faulty workes The wisedome that is from above is first pure then peaceable gentle and without partiality Therefore to be impure unpeaceable injurious and partiall must be the wisedom from below and brings him down to a very low forme that is guilty therein This Demurrer wanting strength in his Arguments or doubting of them thinkes to fortifie his discourse by laying scandalous and uncharitable suspitions on the person of him that wrote for obedience neither are they uncharitable only but untrue and such that upon the proofe of them the Demurrer would hardly adventure a small summe of Money though he thus easily adventure his soule And yet he sayes he sees and because he saith so his sinne remaines for an untruth is never truly seene and without restitution and reparation hee cannot expect his sinne should be taken from him He saith He sees that it is a great snare to be possest of great estates by that power which can divest them if they assist not their wicked designes And that the Author he speaks of is entangled in this snare or else he would never undertake the Patronage of so bad a Cause For answer First This man cannot possibly fetch any convincing proof or demonstration of that which he saith He sees But fetches it wholly from uncharitablenesse even a contrariety to that charity which thinketh none evill This 1 Cor. 13. is all because the Author will not comply with this mans errors and party And whereas he calls it a bad Cause certainely it may be good still for he hath very badly proved it to be bad And why doth he not accuse Calvin and Bucer and Paraeus and Gualter and Peter Martyr for maintaining a bad Cause and doing it for a place of Profit As for any designe the whole life of the Author shewes him very cleare of designes And for this be it what designe it will be he was no actor in it but a spectator onely untill he saw a Government set on foot and that justice might be had this way and no other And then having a right to act he beleeved that he might exercise it in just things yea he beleeved that it was a duty though the Government had been taken by designe and force that those who had taken it and excluded all other should give Justice and if he asist in that which is good and which should be sinne if it were not done I thinke it goes beyond the skill of this Demurrer justly to charge that which is good with Sinne and Guilt Sure it is that he had the councell and consent of impartiall Authors and such are the dead not interested in our affaires even Authors to whom this Demurrer is but an Infant especially if this discourse be the top of his strength as it should be or else he is false to his Cause For a more weake irresolute and unresolving paper is seldome seene for in it there are so many perhaps concerning the chiefe points in question that he seemes unresolved himselfe and how can he then resolve others But of this more in the conclusion And now because his matter is weake therefore his chiefe strength is laid upon scandalizing the Author and so his best argument is his owne uncharitablenesse I am therefore the larger in this point to make a plaister proportionable to the large poyson of this serpentine Discourse that bites the Heele when it can not come to the Head In the meane time he may learne to construe his Latin by his owne actions in English Scelere tuendum est scelus That a false Doctrine must be maintained by false Slanders And now to make manifest that the Author is not so fixed to the world as to maintaine a bad Cause for a place of profit let the Demurrer first know that this Author at the pâ—ssing of the selfe denying Ordinance gave his vote clearely for the quitting of his place and did verely thinke it gone whereof he gave very good testimony but that it pleased the Houses to declare it to be without the intention of the Ordinance So it seemes he hath beene able to quit such a place for the good of the Publique Secondly for the employments of the profits of his place He hath so communicated them amidst all these sales of Lands and other opportunities which are now going that he hath not encreased his estate by purchase one five pounds per annum But thirdly with giving maintainance to poore Schollars ' in Vniversities fatherlesse and poore Children in Schooles distressed persons of Ireland poore in Westminster London and the Country poore servants of the late King poore distressed Widowes of Souldiers and such to whom Arreares are due and maintainance of Preaching he hath gone beyond any for ought I know that have five times his Estate And for getting of reward or advancement by this worke it is certaine he tooke a course to the contrary for he was so farre from acquainting any that are eminent in power and can give advancement either with the worke or with the Name of the Author that he communicated them onely to one that transcribed it whom he adjured to silence And of this concealing the Stationer for whom it was printed can give some testimony True it is that upon conference which he had of this subject with some Persons or by knowing his stile some might adventure to put his name upon the worke among which Mr. Marshall is one who being present when the worke was communicated to one of the Authors nearest friends in a close and concealed manner and thereupon reading it gave his judgement concerning the Name of the Author though he had never any hint of it by any notice from the Author But now to the Demurr it selfe Whereas he saith That he heares few rationall conscientious men are satisfied with the Declaration of Parliament It may be he converses with few men so rationall and conscientious as to be free from partiality But how unsatisfying soever it be beleeved the Author tooke his ground upon a supposed unsatisfaction Whereas he saith a people may perhaps lawfully obey a Government when there is no probability of recovering their lost Government If he would leave out this word perhaps wherewith he much