Selected quad for the lemma: cause_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	bad_a	good_a	reason_n	1,431	5	5.5448	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A62668	To receive the Lords Supper, the actual right and duty of all church-members of years not excommunicate made good against Mr. Collins his exceptions against The bar removed, written by the author : and what right the ignorant and scandalous tolerated in the church have to the Lords Supper declared : many thing belonging to that controversie more fully discussed, tending much to the peace and settlement of the church : and also a ful answer to what Mr. Collins hath written in defence of juridical suspension, wherein his pretended arguments from Scripture are examined and confuted : to which is also annexed A brief answer to the Antidiatribe written by Mr. Saunders / by John Timson ...	Timson, John.; Timson, John. Brief answer to the antidiatribe written by Mr. Saunders.	1655 (1655)	Wing T1296; ESTC R1970	185,323	400

baptized people to make out their argument and own invented way against such manifest demonstration which cannot otherwise be answered and yet for the zeal of the Churches peace and priviledges we defend in behalf of her members we are counted the greatest enemies to the Church none deserve worse of the Church then we no not Ranters Quakers Antitrinitarians Anabaptists Brownists that destroy all the Church is in possession of through the gift of his grace for there are some amongst all others that deserve bad enough sure but we deserve worse then all these if this good man say true As for looking at a worldly interest he hints at I have as little cause as ever had any man I have what I lookt for before I ingaged to have many tongues and pens against me even of them I esteem my very good friends which thing I have put my self upon with no small reluctancy of spirit what the Lord intends by it for good or hurt I am not certain but content to submit to his pleasure and further guidance in the Controversie being well assured of this that I shall not loose my labour of zeal and love for the Churches peace and edification I shall speak one word more to vindicate my self and friends from this heavy censure The question shall be put to the judgement of the learned and sober in the Church of England Whether Mr. Saunders himself gives approbation of or Mr. Humfry or my self deserves worse of the Church of God If we doe not deserve worse of the Church then the Author himself approves of I hope the judicious Reader will forgive us the wrong and what himself hath published will acquit us And I doubt not but when our principles and theirs are laid together and compared impartially as I have given some discoveries in these followings sheets it will not be very difficult to judge whether they or we deserve worse of the Church of God And so I will leave Mr. Mantons hard censure to himself and others that shall read both to judge between us I should hardly have troubled you with these sheets had not that passage much provoked me nor would I hinder that reverend Gentleman ingaged he may rejoyn more deliberately if he see cause I think I have done enough to caution the Reader of lesse judgement from being taken with this Author with whose smoothnesse of expression and plausible pretences his Reader may quickly be intangled and carryed away with a sound of enticing words that have no truth nor solid reason in them I shall now upon the sudden come to examine the main of his Book And my way will be first to examine what himself relates of their way Secondly I shall examine the state of the question and the proofs urged to defend it answer his arguments queries and motives and then conclude Mr. Saunders tels us what their way is There is a Church formed in one of our Congregations according to the rule of the Word In the choyce of a Pastor Officers and Members other Ministers and people are joyned to this society in which we are like to walk till we can see truth or reason against us pag. 121. To this something may be yeelded Answ 1 as namely that where a people is destitute of a faithful Pastor they may choose one that is qualified for the carrying on the whole work of the Ministery in the Church And the people to submit unto him as ruling over them in the Lord I mean so far as his Office and Function doth authorize him according to rule to admonish warn rebuke and command Then something is to be denyed untill further proof of their practice appear As namely 1. That he that is a Pastor of a particular Congregation and Church or flock unto which he was either lawfully sent and inducted by the Church or came in by the consent of the people over whom he is I say for such a one to joyn himself to another Church as a common member and to hold constant Communion in the Sacrament with that Church and altogether neglect the administring of the Lords Supper to that people he is Pastor of I utterly reject as that which the Scripture doth no where allow but is contrary to reason order peace and edification of his people if it doth not imply a forsaking his Pastoral relation and duties 2. I would gladly see it made out by Scripture that one that is a Pastor of a Church already may be chosen a Pastor again either by the people he is Pastor unto or by others that have lawful Pastors over them already if this practice be permitted in those that are confessed by the Author to be true Churches which they dare not separate from What a deluge of disorder confusion must necessarily follow Can a man be a Pastor of a select company out of several Churches and a Pastor to his own people in general he was first related unto denying the Lords Supper to them that are properly his own flock give it as Pastor to other mens flocks and charge Or can a man be Pastor of a true Church and an Officer of another Or a particular private member in constant Communion with another in acts of worship These things have need of sugred words indeed to make them passe yet this is represented unto all with the common guise of every Sect to be according to the rule of the Word when Mr. Saunders hath given us his proof to make good these paradoxes hinted at and further declared and explained their way we may have occasion more strictly to examine it in all the particulars of it In the mean time I can conceive no lesse of their way but that it makes such a rent in their several Congregations that most properly and justly is called Schism pleading necessity will not help you especially when it 's of your own makeing running upon sundry mistakes and taking principles upon trust for truth that the holy Scriptures no where teach brings most knowing men under these straights overwhelming the Church with distraction division and confusion Besides there is no necessity to sin upon pretence of reforming that Reformation that is begun by sinfull means is not of God nor can never tend to the Churches good Arguments drawn from pretended necessities are of little strength in a sober rational dispute however prevalent they are conceived to be when accompanyed with the sword How can those Ministers think they have done their duty in administring the holy Supper to their respective Congregations by drawing a few of their own members with them to receive it in another mans Congregation They may as well think they have done their duty in preaching to their own Congregation by a constant drawing a few of their people with them to hear another man preach and if the other be their Pastor as to some in the way they are in cannot be denyed why should not such members constantly attend him in all

their manifold sins as that of Idolatry in this chapter the Apostle tels them that the Church of the Jews was invested with the like priviledges as they are and yet for their provoking sins God was not well pleased with them but destroyed many of them for their murmurings whoredomes Idolatries c. and therefore warns them of the like in general And then in the 14. verse he applyes himself unto them in particular Wherefore my beloved brethren fly from Idolatry I speak to wise men judge what I say for this is the thing that comes neer you which some of you are guilty of And that he might throughly convince them of the hainous nature of this sin he draws an argument from the nature of that holy Communion they had together in the holy Supper which supposes them to be all of one Christian body for they all eat of one bread and drink of one cup c. Hence he would have them see what an inconsistent thing it were for them to be of this Christian body and of another Heathenish body too in point of Communion they could not be of both of Christ and Belial this were a mixture unsufferable to drink the cup of the Lord at one time in the Church of Christ and then at another time to drink the cup of Divels in his Temple Will you thus provoke the Lord c. you must either forbear the one or the other for you cannot serve God and the Devil And this he aggravates the more because it was such an offence and scandal to the weak amongst them the which they that were the strongest Christians offended in as the latter end of the chapter doth clearly give it and that about indifferent things and it became thus sinful in regard of some evil circumstances But now what is this to prove that this sin was in their eating and drinking unworthily in the 11 chap. as Mr. Collins would have it for here you may conceive that at most the offenders were but implicitly threatned with punishment but in the 11. ch they were already punished when this Epistle was sent unto them the which will trouble Mr. C. to reconcile Besides had the Apostle in ch 11. meant their actual offending in the 5. 10. ch then he would have said for these causes some are punished or for this and divers other but as he meant no other so he writes and terminates the only cause of their punishment was their profaning the holy Sacrament of the body and bloud of the Lord as hath been spoken to For this cause c. His second reason to prove he cannot digest the sense I have given is because it seems very absurd to him that a man who should but offend in a point of order should be guilty of the body and bloud of Christ and so of judgement and he who comes raking with the guilt of scandalous sins should not at all be guilty or lyable to Gods judgements Why will Mr. Answ Collins thus mince their sin Was their being drunk and their using a sacred Ordinance of Christ appointed for so spiritual an end but as a civil or common Supper but offending in a point of order if this did not strike at the very essence and nature of the Ordinance I know not what doth doth not the Apostle tell them plainly This is not to eat the Lords Supper but their own this profanation of the instituted signs rendered them guilty of polluting the very body and bloud of Christ that the signs did represent and will he say this were but to offend in a point of order I might adde their offending in point of order to the main But then to the latter part Touching them that come in scandalous sins that they should not at all be guilty or lyable to the judgements of God Who ever said such a word Answ Doth it sollow because the Corinthians were punished for no other cause but their prophaning this Ordinance that therefore I must needs hold that they that come in other scandalous sins are not lyable to any of Gods judgements for their other sins I say tribulation anguish and woe to every soul that doth evill And yet I say too it 's possible a scandalous sinner may come to the Sacrament and not at all be guilty of the Corinthians sinning nor as to his receiving be lyable to the judgements of God provided he come as prepared and carry himself as reverently at the administration as he can for his scandalous life doth not disingage him from Christian observance while he is within and not under the just censures of the Church to reform him thereby I know for carnal wretched impenitent sinners to come carelessely and customarily is a great sin and for them that out of carelessenesse and want of affection to it shall neglect it when they are invited to it is a great sin also and both punishable by the Lord. I wish all due and lawful means were used for the reforming of both so might we expect a greater blessing of grace upon all in a holy use of Gods own appointments in the mean time let us all reform what we regularly can and mourn for what we are wanting in Mr. Collings third reason is because he cannot conceive that God should be so unlike himself as to look upon one legally unclean unworthy to eat the Passeover under the Old Testament and yet look upon one morally unclean as worthy under the New It is too bold to call the blessed God unto mans bar Answ because he is not like to men that are not able to reach the reason of his declared will God cannot be unlike himself be sure but it 's possible Mr. Collings may be unlike the truth in what he saith pag. 28. how doth he know that God lookt upon one that was legally unclean as unworthy to eat the Passeover We know that that uncleannesse was incident to good men as well as others It will set him hard to prove I think that it took away the habitual worthinesse of a godly man or that relative worthinesse of membership if not such were not lookt upon as unworthy of the Passeover but were under a contingent necessity by the will of God that they could not observe it but they should make the sacrifice unclean for by the will of God it was declared unto them that whatsoever they touched in their uncleannesse should be unclean And we know it was a case the Lord indulged equally with those that were in a necessary journey appointing them another day of purpose the next month nor were they so much denyed the benefit of this Ordinance as of others that they lost the profit of during their uncleannesse there being not the like provision appointed as to the Passeover Again let me ask Mr. Collins why the whole Church were to observe the Passeover upon their lives and yet he cannot deny but in that Church in their best estate there were many that

so to use the remedy as to prevent the judgement and to receive benefit by the Ordinance where God gave a blessing pag. 13. The Bar removed I doe not finde that Mr. Collins hath much to except against what I have answered to these two queries in my Book pag. 19 20. He grants what I have said is true but yet he sayes in case of scandalous sinners in the Church self examination is not enough but there is something to be done by the Ministers and officers of the Church he grants self examination a personal remedy but there are other Church remedies which the Apostle commandeth the use of as well as this 1 Cor. 5. I am ready to yeeld it Answ that there are Church remedies and judge that his quotation 1 Cor. 5. is so for the reforming scandalous brethren And that those that are justly delivered up to Satan or cast out of Christian Communion by the authority of the Church should not only be debarred the Sacrament but all publick Ordinances and all civil society so far as our particular callings will possibly admit of but yet I am far from thinking that the Apostle ever meant that delivering unto Satan and to put from among themselves that wicked person was no more but exclude him the Sacrament And I verily believe that the same censure that was put into execution by the decree of the Apostle was made a general rule for the Church touching their dealing with all scandalous brethren in the Church as plainly appears in the 10 11 12. verses of that chapter the which I shall more clearly speak unto when I come to examine the grounds of suspension laid down by Mr. Collins He saith He cannot subscribe to my inclination that self examination mentioned 1 Cor. 11.28 must be limited by the premises in the context as the institution repeated doth import with some other directions and cautions given in cure of their malady c. He might have done it for any strength of reason he can give to the contrary Answ for if those two things hold which I have pincht upon That the Corinths were not blamed nor punished for personal unworthinesse at all Nor 2. for any other actual offendings but meerly for their profaning the Ordinance of Christ in the very time of administration for this cause only some are weak sick and some are dead vers 30. I say if this hold as I believe it will what reason can any man have to judge that the Apostle intends more in this place then the reforming of them in those particular sins they were punished for and blamed for If they were punished for coming to the Sacrament in an unregenerate state or for want of the knowledg of God in Christ for want of love of God and of Jesus Christ of men or for any other want or miscarriage save only this so exprest in the context examination might have been urged accordingly but they being not so much as blamed for any such things in order to the Sacrament no not in this chap. or elsewhere what shew of reason can any man have to be so severe in urging of examination as a duty of that necessity that if they be not able to discern the mysteries of the Kingdome of God and to approve themselves to God to be sincere as to such particulars which are only necessary for admittance unto heavenly glory or else if otherwise they come they will but eat and drink their own damnation When in my answer I have limited this duty of self-examination to the context as if the Apostle had said unto them You being fully convinced of your former woeful abuse and profaning this holy Ordinance of Christ you must now judge and condemn your selves accordingly and approve your selves according unto the right rule prescribed unto you in the institution received from Christ understanding within your selves what this holy observance doth mean and so come and demean your selves with reverence and good order sutable to Gods Ordinance and then he tels them they should not be judged of the Lord. This saith Mr. Collins is short work indeed pag. 29. What though it be short of the ordinary lasts of some men that will extend this duty to an infinitum Answ yet until Mr. Collins or any other can confute it I shall judge it right work and no whit short of the sense o● this place the which were it justly applyed to ours as it ought to be they being members of the same visible body and under the same rule and priviledges of the Church and not offenders in that kinde I think a shorte work would serve did not men upon mistak● affect to make themselves more work the they have warrant for from their Lord. But thus he saith The wrod in the Gree will not be satisfied with such a short and sea● interpretation Magistrates examine malefactor more strictly and the Goldsmiths tryal of his gold a more searching tryal the Apostle expounds i● 2 Cor. 13.5 You must excuse me as touching the Original Answ I am not able to examine it I wish could I am afraid the truth will be prejudiced through mine inabilities yet as I a● informed this makes but little to his purpose the same word being so often used i● the New Testament and that upon differen●● accounts as Rom. 2.18 chap. 14.18 and the 16.10 2 Cor. 7.11 10.18 the 13.7 Phil. 1.10 2 Tim. 2.15 by some of these places you may see we are to approve of the things that are excellent and good and holy so as to put forth our endevours in pursuance of them and to decline the contrary which is all one with 1 Cor. 11.28 the Apostle would have the Corinths to approve themselves to the rules prescribed them and so come 2 Cor. 13.5 is a different thing to 1 Cor. 11.28 there the Apostle perceived that they questioned his authority of Apostleship and required a proof of Christ speaking in him the which saith the Apostle they need not goe far for a proof of Christ in accompanying his Word by him towards them is not weak but mighty vers 3. and hence he bids them examine themselves whether they be in the faith prove your selves that Christ is in you and that would be a sufficient proof of Christs speaking in him and of his Ministerial authority Thus you may clearly see although here is the same word yet it 's used upon a far different occasion and therefore it doth not expound 1 Cor. 11.28 as Mr. Collins would have it Next he saith That another kinde of examination is here required hath been the concurrent judgement of all Divines especially those of the reformed Churches c. I heartily reverence the concurrent judgement of all Divines and it is my grief that I differ from them in some things I wish that the authority of man do not cloud the truth from some for my own part my inabilities are such that there can be no danger of swaying