he meant to sweep the Sea of all English Shipping After this in February â—he Dutch with Van Tromp were encountred by the English under Blake and Dean near Ports-mouth and had the worst And these were all the Encounters between them this year in the narrow Seas they fought also once at Leghorn where the Dutch had the better B. I see no great odds yet on either side if there were any the English had it A. Nor did either of them e're the more incline to Peace for the Hollanders after they had sent Ambassadors into Denmark Sweeden Poland and the Hans Towns whence Tar and Cordage are usually had to signifie the Declaration of the War and to get them to their Party re-called their Ambassadors from England and the Rump without delay gave their parting audience without abating a Syllable of their former severe Propositions and presently to maintain the War for the next year laid a Tax upon the People of 120000 l. per Mâ—nsem B. What was done in the mean time at home A. Cromwel was now quarrelling the last and greatest Obstacle to his Design the Rump and to that end there came out dayly from the Army Petitions Addresses Remonstrances and other such Papers some of them urging the Rump to dissolve themselves and make way for another Parliament to which the Rump unwilling to yield and not daring to refuse determin'd for the end of their sitting the 5th of November 1654. but Cromwel meant not to stay so long In the mean time the Army in Ireland was taking Submissions and granting Transportations of the Irish and condemning who they pleased in a High Court of Justice erected there for that purpose Among those that were executed was hang'd Sir Phelim Oneale who first began the Rebellion in Scotland the English built some Citadels for the bridling that stubborn Nation and thus ended the year 1652. B. Come we then to the year 1653. A. Cromwel wanted now but one step to the end of his Ambition and that was To set his Foot upon the Neck of this Long-Parliament which he did April the 23th of this present year 1653. a time very seasonable for though the Dutch were not master'd yet they were much weakned and what with Prizes from the Enemy and squeezing the Royal Party the Treasury was pretty full and the Tax of 120000 l. a Month began to come in all which was his own in right of the Army Therefore without any more ado attended by the Major Generals Lambert and Harrison some other Officers and as many Souldiers as he thought fit he went to the Parliament House and dissolv'd them turn'd them out and lock'd up the Doors and for this Action he was more applauded by the people than for any of his Victories in the War and the Parliament men as much scorn'd and derided B. Now that there was no Parliament who had the Supreme Power A. If by Power you mean the right to Govern no body had it if you mean the Supreme Strength it was clearly in Cromwel who was obeyed as General of all the Forces in England Scotland and Ireland B. Did he pretend that for Title A. No but presently after he intended a Title which was this That he was necessitated for the defence of the Cause for which at first the Parliament had taken up Arms that is to say Rebell'd to have recourse to extraordinary Actions You know the pretence of the Long-Parliament's Rebellion was Salus Populi the safety of the Nation against a dangerous Conspiracy of Papists and a malignant Party at home and that every man is bound as far as his Power extends to procure the safety of the whole Nation which none but the Army were able to do and the Parliament had hitherto neglected was it not then the Generals duty to do it had he not therefore right for that Law of Salus Populi is directed only to those that have Power enough to defend the People that is to them that have the Supreme Power B. Yes certainly he had as good a Title as the Long-Parliament but the Long-Parliament did represent the People and it seems to me that the Soveraign Power is essentially annexed to the Representative of the People A. Yes if he that makes a Representative that is in the present case the King do call them together to receive the Soveraign Power and he divest himself thereof otherwise not nor was ever the lower house of Parliament the Representative of the whole Nation but of the Commons only nor had that House the Power to oblige by their Acts or Ordinances any Lord or any Priest B. Did Cromwel come in upon the only Title of Salus Populi For this is a Title very few understand A. His way was to get the Supreme Power conferr'd upon him by Parliament therefore he call'd a Parliament and gave it the Supreme Power to the end that they should give it to him again was not this witty First therefore he published a Declaration of the Causes why he dissolv'd the Parliament the sum whereof was That instead of endeavouring to promote the good of Gods people they endeavour'd by a Bill then ready to pas to recruit the House and perpetuate their own Power Next he constituted a Council of State of his own Creatures to be the Supreme Autority of England but no longer than till the next Parliament should be call'd and met Thiâ—dly he summon'd 142 persons such as he himself or his trusty Officers made choice of the greatest part of whom were instructed what to do obscure persons and most of them Phanaticks though stil'd by Cromwel Men of approv'd fidelity and honâ—sty to these the Council of State surrender'd the Supreme Authority and not long after these men surrendred it to Cromwel July the fourth this Parliament met and chose for their Speaker one Mr. Rous and called themselves from that time forward The Parliament of England But Cromwel for the more surety constituted also a Council of State not of such petty Fellows as most of these were but of himself and of his principal Officers These did all the business both publick and private making Ordinances and giving Audience to Foreign Ambassadors But he had now more Enemâ—es than before Harrison who was the Head of the Fifth monarchy-men laying down his Commission did nothing but anâ—mate his Party against him for which afterward he was Imprisoned This little Parliament in the mean time were making of Acts so ridiculous and displeasing to the People that it was thought he chose them on purpose to bring all ruling Parliaments into contempt and Monarchy again into credit B. What Acts were these A. One of them was That all Marriages should be made by a Justice of Peace and the Banes asked three several days in the next Market None were forbidden to be Married by a Minister but without a Justice of Peace the Marriage was to be void so divers wary Couples to be sure of one another howsoever
that point you will be better informed in the pursuit of this Narration B. But I desire to know first the several grounds of the Pretences both of the Pope and of the Presbyterians by which they claim a Right to govern us as they do in chief and after that from whence and when crept in the Pretences of that Long Parliament for a Democrasie A. As for the Papists they challenge this Right from a Text in Deut. 7. and other like Texts according to the Old Latin Translation in these words And he that out of Pride shall refuse to obey the Commandment of that Priest which shall at that time Minister before the Lord thy God that man shall by the Sentence of the Judge be put to Death And because the Jews were the people of God then so is all Christendom the People of God now they infer from thence that the Pope whom they pretend to be High Priest of all Christian People ought also to be obeyed in all his Decrees by all Christians upon pain of Death Again whereas in the New Testament Christ saith all Power is given unto me in Heaven and in Earth go therefore and teach all Nations and baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost and teach them to observe all those things that I have commanded you from thence they infer that the Command of the Apostles was to be obeyed and by consequence the Nations were bound to be governed by them and especially by the Prince of the Apostles St. Peter and by his Successors the Popes of Rome B. For the Text in the Old Testament I do not see how the Commandment of God to the Jews to obey their Priests can be interpreted to have the like force in the Case of the other Nations Christian more then upon Nations Unchristian For all the World are Gods People unless we also grant that a King cannot of an Infidel be made Christian without making himself subject to the Laws of that Apostle of Priest or Minister that shall convert him The Jews were a peculiar people of God a Sacerdotal Kingdom and bound to no other Law but what first Moses and afterwards every High Priest did go and receive immediately from the Mouth of God in Mount Sinai in the Tabernacle of the Ark and in the Sanctum Sanctorum of the Temple And for the Text in St. Matthew I know the words in the Gospel are not Go teach but Go and make Disciples and that there is a great difference between a Subject and a Disciple and between teaching and commanding and if such Texts as these must be so interpreted why do not Christian Kings lay down their Titles of Majesty and Soveraignty and call themselves the Popes Lieutenants But the Doctors of the Romish Church seem to decline that Title of Absolute Power in their distinction of Power Spiritual and Temporal but this Distinction I do not vell understand A. By Spiritual Power they mean the Power to determine Points of Faith and to be Judges in the Inner Court of Conscience of Moral Duties and of a Power to punish those men that obey not their Precepts by Ecclesiastical Censure that is by Excommunication and this Power they say the Pope hath immediately from Christ without dependance upon any King or Sovereign Assemblies whose Subjects they be that stand Excommunicate But for the Power Temporal which consists in judging and punishing those actions that are done against the Civil Law they say they do not pretend to it directly but onely indirectly that is to say as far forth as such actions tend to the hinderance or advancement of Religion in ordine ad spiritualia B. What Power then is left to Kings and other Civil Sovereigns which the Pope may not pretend to be in ordine ad Spiritualia A. None or very little and this Power the Pope not onely pretends to in all Christendom but some of his Bishops also in their several Diocesses jure Divino that is immediately from Christ without deriving it from the Pope B. But what if a man refuse Obedience to this pretended Power of the Pope and his Bishops what harm can Excommunication do him especially if he be a Subject of another Sovereign A. Very great harm for by the Popes or Bishops signification of it to the Civil Power he shall be punished sufficiently B. He were in an ill case then that adventured to write or speak in defence of the Civil Power that must be pun shed by him whose Rights he defended like Uzza that was slain because he Would needs unbidden put forth his hand to keep the Ark from falling But what if a whole Nation should revolt from the Pope at once what effect could Excommunication have upon the Nation A. Why they should have no more Mass said by any of the Pope's Priests Besides the Pope would have no more to with them but cast them off and so they would be in the same case as if a Nation should be cast by their King and left to be governed by themselves or whom they would B. This would not so much be taken for a punishment to the People as to the King and therefore when a Pope Excommunicates a whole Nation me-thinks he rather Excommunicates himself than them But I pray you tell me what were the Rights the Pope pretended to in Kingdoms of other Princes A. First and exemption of all Priests Friers and Monks in Criminal Causes from the Cognizance of Civil Judges Secondly Collation of Benefices on whom he pleased Native or Stranger and Exaction of Tenths Fruits and other Payments Thirdly Appeals to Rome in all Causes where the Church could pretend to be concern'd Fourthly To be the Supreme Judge concerning the Lawfulness of Marriage i e. concerning the Hereditary Succession of Kings and to have the Cognizance of all Causes concerning Adultery and Fornication B. Good a Monopoly of Women A. Fifthly a power of absolving Subjects of their Duties and of their Oaths of Fidelity to their Lawful Sovereigns when the Pope should think fit for the extirpation of Heresie B. This power of absolving Subjects of their obedience as also that other of being Judges of Manners and Doctrine is as absolute a Sovereignty as if possible to be and consequently there must be two Kingdoms in one and the same Nation and so no man be able to know which of his Masters he must obey A. For my part I should rather obey that Master that had the Right of making Laws and of inflicting Punishments than him that pretendeth onely to a right of making Canons that is to say Rules and no Right of Co-action or otherwise Punishing but by Excommunication B. But the Pope pretends also that his Canons are Laws and for punishing can there be a greater than Excommunication supposing it true as the Pope saith it is that he that dies Excommunicate is damn'd which supposition it seems you believe not else you
would rather have chosen to obey the Pope that could cast your Body and Soul into Hell than the King that can onely kill the Body A. You say true for it were very uncharitable in me to believe that all Englishmen except a few Papists that have been born and called Hereticks ever since the Reformation of Religion in England should be damn'd B. But for those that die Excommunicate in the Church of England at this day do you not think them also damn'd and he that is Excommunicate for disobedience to the King's Law either Spiritual or Temporal is Excommunicate for sin and therefore if he die Excommunicate and without desire of reconciliation he dies impenitent you see what follows But to die in disobedience to the Precepts and Doctrine of those men that have no Authority or Jurisdiction over us is quite another case and bringeth no such danger with it B. But what is this Heresie which the Church of Rome so cruelly persecutes as to depose Kings that do not when they are bidden turn all Hereticks out of their Dominions A. Heresie is a Word which when it is used without passion signifies a private Opinion so the different Sect of the old Philosophers Academians Peripateticks Epicureans Stoicks c. were called Heresie But in the Christian Church there was in the signification of that word comprehended a sinful opposition to him that was chief Judge of Doctrines in order to the Salvation of mens Souls and consequently Heresie may be said to bear the same relation to the Power Spiritual that Rebellion doth to the Power Temporal and is suitably to be persecuted by him that will preserve a Power Spiritual and dominion over mens Consciences B. It would be very well because we are all of us permitted to read the holy Scriptures and bound to make them the Rule of our actions both publick and private that Heresie were by some Law defined and the particular Opinions set forth for which a man were to be condemned and punished as a Heretick for else not onely men of mean capacity but even the wisest and devoutest Christian may fall into Heresie without any will to oppose the Church for the Scriptures are hard and the interpretations different of different men A. The meaning of the word Heresie is by Law declared in Act of Parliament in the First Year of Queen Elizabeth wherein it is ordained that the Persons who had by the Queens Letters Patents the Authority Spiritual meaning the High Commission shall not have Authority to Adjudge any matter or cause to be Heresie but only such as heretofore have been Adjudged to be Heresie by the Authority of the Canonical Scriptures or by the First 4 General Councils or by any other General Council where the same was declared Heresie by the express and plain words of the said Canonical Scriptures or such as hereafter shall be adjudged Heresie by the High Court of Parliament of this Realm with the assent of the Clergy in their Convocation B. It seems therefore if there arise any new Error that hath not been yet declared Heresie and many such may arise it cannot be Judged Heresie without a Parliament for how foul soever the error be it cannot have been declared Heresie neither in the Scriptures nor in the Councils because it was never before heard of and consequently there can be no Error unless it fall within the compass of Blasphemy against God or Treason against the King for which a man can in Equity be punished Besides who can tell what is declared by the Scripture which every man is allowed to read and interpret to hemself nay more what Protestant either of the Laity or Clergy if every General Council can be a competent Judge of Heresie is not already condemned for divers Councils have declar'd a great many of our Doctrines to be Heresie as they pretend upon the Authority of the Scriptures A. What are those points that the first four General Counsels have declared Heresie B. The first General Councel held at Nicaea declared all to be Heresie which was contrary to the Nicene Creed Upon occasion of the Heresie of Arrius which was the denying the Divinity of Christ the Second General Councel held at Constantinople declar'd Heresie the Doctrine of Macedonius which was that the Holy Ghost was created The Third Councel assembled at Ephesius condemned the Doctrine of Nestorius that there were two persons in Christ The Fourth held at Calcedon condemned the Error of Emtyches that there was but one nature in Christ I know of no other Points condemned in these four Councels but such as concern Church-Government or the same Doctrines taught by other Men in other words And these Councels were all called by the Emperors and by them their Decrees confirmed at the Petition of the Councels themselves A. I see by this that both the Calling of the Council and the confirmation of their Doctrine and Church-Government had no obligatory force but from the Authority of the Emperor how comes it then to pass that they take upon them now a Legislative Power and say their Canons are Laws That Text all Power is given to me in Heaven and Earth had the same force then as it hath now and conferred a Legislative Power on the Councils not only over Christian men but over all Nations in the world B. They say no for the Power they pretend to is derived from this that when a King was converted from Gentilism to Christianity he did by that very Submission to the Bishop that converted him submit to the Bishops Government and became one of his sheep which Right therefore he could not have over any Nation that was not Christian A. Did Silvester which was Pope of Rome in the time of Constantine the Great converted by him tell the Emperor his New Disciple before hand that if he became a Christian he must become the Popes Subject B. I believe not for it is likely enough if he had told him so plainly or but made him suspect it he would either have been not Christian at all or but a Counterfeit one A. But if he did not tell him so and that plainly it was foul play not only in a Priest but in any Christian And for this Derivation of their Right from the Emperors consent it proceeds only from this that they dare not challenge a Legislative power nor call their Canons Laws in any Kingdom in Christendom farther than the Kings make them so But in Peru when Atabalipa was King the Fryer told him that Christ being King of all the World had given the diposing of all the Kingdoms there to the Pope And that the Pope had given Peru to the Roman Emperor Charles the 5. and required Atabalipa to resign it and for refusing it seised upon his Person by the Spanish Army there present and murdered him You see by this how much they claim when they have power to make it good B. When began the Popes to take this