to_o refuse_v you_o neither_o can_v a_o negative_a thesis_n be_v otherways_o prove_v but_o by_o a_o medium_fw-la that_o be_v repugnant_a either_o to_o the_o attribute_n or_o to_o the_o subject_a of_o the_o question_n so_o this_o your_o censure_n be_v very_o ridiculous_a absurd_a and_o impertinent_a 2._o i_o have_v prove_v it_o to_o be_v conform_a to_o god_n word_n 3._o it_o be_v not_o credible_a but_o that_o government_n be_v most_o convenient_a to_o god_n word_n which_o be_v most_o convenient_a and_o commensurate_a unto_o the_o end_n that_o god_n command_v we_o to_o intend_v and_o to_o tend_v into_o neither_o can_v i_o believe_v that_o god_n have_v ordain_v we_o any_o mean_n that_o be_v not_o fit_a and_o proper_a for_o the_o end_n that_o he_o intend_v or_o command_v we_o to_o intend_v for_o that_o be_v repugnant_a to_o his_o sovereign_a wisdom_n 4._o and_o as_o for_o your_o example_n they_o be_v not_o to_o the_o purpose_n for_o all_o these_o fact_n of_o saul_n vzzah_n etc._n etc._n be_v contrary_a to_o god_n express_v command_v neither_o be_v they_o convenient_a to_o the_o end_n intend_v by_o god_n or_o that_o we_o shall_v tend_v unto_o viz._n filial_a obedience_n to_o the_o command_n and_o the_o typify_a of_o christ_n and_o his_o benefit_n the_o example_n of_o saint_n peter_n be_v 1._o a_o manifest_a breach_n of_o the_o six_o commandment_n in_o kill_v a_o man_n without_o public_a authority_n 2._o it_o employ_v a_o act_n of_o diffidence_n and_o of_o too_o great_a confidence_n as_o if_o christ_n have_v have_v no_o other_o mean_n to_o deliver_v himself_o but_o his_o sword_n in_o this_o peter_n trust_v too_o much_o to_o his_o own_o sword_n and_o too_o little_a to_o god_n providence_n 3._o it_o contain_v a_o act_n of_o precipitation_n and_o too_o great_a boldness_n and_o rashness_n in_o draw_v his_o sword_n in_o his_o master_n presence_n without_o yea_o against_o his_o master_n will_v and_o command_v 4._o it_o be_v repugnant_a to_o the_o end_n for_o which_o christ_n come_v into_o the_o word_n viz._n christ_n death_n and_o the_o redemption_n of_o mankind_n by_o it_o whereof_o peter_n before_o that_o time_n have_v be_v so_o oft_o advertise_v etc._n etc._n so_o be_v it_o not_o in_o presbyterial_a discipline_n neither_o be_v there_o any_o damnable_a error_n or_o heresy_n in_o consistoriall_a government_n as_o in_o the_o papacy_n we_o say_v not_o that_o any_o of_o our_o assembly_n be_v infallible_a as_o the_o pope_n pretend_v himself_o and_o his_o general_n council_n to_o be_v neither_o pretend_v we_o that_o our_o assembly_n have_v any_o despoticall_a or_o lordly_a domination_n over_o the_o church_n as_o the_o pope_n do_v we_o say_v not_o that_o our_o assembly_n be_v above_o god_n word_n as_o they_o do_v these_o comparison_n of_o m._n s._n be_v no_o less_o than_o blasphemous_a and_o here_o i_o must_v advertise_v the_o reader_n that_o all_o the_o presbyterial_a assembly_n together_o take_v no_o great_a authority_n over_o the_o church_n than_o six_o or_o seven_o independent_a tinker_n a_o hangman_n with_o they_o together_o with_o one_o of_o their_o minister_n do_v over_o the_o flock_n the_o independent_a preacher_n with_o his_o six_o or_o seven_o person_n be_v like_a to_o the_o pope_n and_o the_o consistory_n of_o his_o cardinal_n because_o of_o their_o independency_n than_o any_o of_o our_o church_n which_o be_v all_o dependent_n and_o subject_a to_o superior_a authority_n m._n s._n pag._n 79._o §_o in_o his_o second_o answer_n tell_v i_o that_o he_o can_v inform_v himself_o 1._o what_o a._n s._n mean_n by_o authoritative_a power_n 2._o or_o from_o whence_o our_o church_n have_v it_o a._n s._n i_o have_v 1_o full_o declare_v in_o my_o annotation_n and_o here_o above_o what_o it_o be_v 2._o and_o from_o whence_o it_o proceed_v it_o be_v a_o ministerial_a power_n to_o command_v such_o as_o be_v subject_a thereunto_o which_o bind_v or_o oblige_v they_o to_o obedience_n and_o whereby_o in_o case_n of_o disobedience_n they_o may_v inflict_v spiritual_a punishment_n it_o be_v of_o god_n or_o from_o god_n and_o therefore_o lawful_a now_o whether_o it_o be_v of_o god_n as_o author_n of_o nature_n or_o of_o grace_n by_o the_o law_n of_o nature_n or_o any_o positive_a law_n natural_a or_o supernatural_a it_o be_v not_o a_o question_n de_fw-fr re_fw-mi sed_fw-la de_fw-la modo_fw-la rei_fw-la not_o of_o the_o thing_n itself_o but_o of_o the_o manner_n thereof_o grant_v i_o either_o that_o it_o be_v lawful_a or_o deny_v it_o if_o it_o be_v a_o lawful_a power_n it_o be_v of_o god_n for_o there_o be_v no_o lawful_a power_n but_o of_o god_n rom._n 13.2_o grant_v i_o the_o thing_n and_o afterward_o i_o shall_v dispute_v with_o you_o de_fw-fr modo_fw-la rei_fw-la they_o have_v it_o not_o of_o the_o parliament_n nor_o of_o the_o state_n as_o you_o pretend_v for_o secular_a man_n can_v give_v any_o spiritual_a power_n into_o the_o church_n they_o have_v it_o of_o god_n and_o by_o god_n word_n directè_fw-la or_o per_fw-la consequentiam_fw-la and_o in_o some_o thing_n per_fw-la non_fw-la repugnantiam_fw-la it_o be_v a_o untruth_n in_o m._n s._n in_o his_o three_o answer_n whereas_o he_o say_v that_o i_o seem_v to_o imply_v that_o the_o church_n have_v this_o power_n from_o the_o law_n of_o the_o state_n for_o howbeit_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n by_o his_o law_n put_v a_o political_a obligation_n upon_o christian_n to_o obey_v the_o church_n spiritual_a authority_n which_o be_v from_o god_n yet_o be_v not_o his_o civil_a authority_n the_o cause_n of_o the_o church_n spiritual_a authority_n or_o of_o the_o obligation_n whereby_o a_o christian_a be_v bind_v to_o obey_v the_o church_n for_o howbeit_o there_o be_v no_o civil_a magistrate_n or_o howbeit_o he_o shall_v dissent_v from_o such_o a_o obedience_n yet_o shall_v the_o church_n have_v spiritual_a power_n and_o all_o the_o member_n of_o the_o church_n in_o a_o spiritual_a way_n shall_v be_v bind_v to_o obedience_n but_o what_o then_o do_v the_o civil_a magistrate_n law_n answ_n it_o put_v a_o new_a bond_n or_o obligation_n upon_o the_o member_n of_o the_o church_n and_o bind_v they_o again_o by_o a_o civil_a authority_n extrinsecall_v to_o the_o church_n to_o a_o spiritual_a obedience_n who_o heretofore_o be_v only_o bind_v by_o a_o spiritual_a obligation_n so_o he_o bind_v they_o to_o a_o spiritual_a obedience_n but_o not_o spiritual_o as_o the_o church_n authority_n do_v but_o only_o material_o and_o that_o by_o civil_a authority_n so_o the_o minister_n of_o the_o gospel_n or_o rather_o god_n by_o they_o oblige_v and_o bind_v the_o subject_n in_o the_o state_n in_o a_o spiritual_a way_n by_o god_n word_n to_o obey_v the_o civil_a magistrate_n or_o political_a and_o civil_a obedience_n but_o not_o political_o or_o civil_o but_o spiritual_o so_o it_o follow_v not_o that_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n have_v power_n to_o form_v ecclesiastical_a government_n only_o it_o follow_v that_o in_o a_o political_a way_n he_o may_v oblige_v or_o bind_v man_n to_o obey_v it_o no_o more_o follow_v it_o that_o i_o resolve_v church_n government_n into_o the_o humour_n will_n and_o pleasure_n of_o the_o world_n etc._n etc._n only_o it_o follow_v that_o the_o civil_a obligation_n lay_v upon_o man_n to_o obey_v the_o church_n so_o far_o forth_o as_o civil_a must_v be_v final_o resolve_v into_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n power_n and_o not_o into_o his_o humour_n as_o m._n s._n most_o contemptuous_o speak_v of_o he_o m._n s._n his_o four_o answer_n be_v in_o retort_v my_o argument_n 1._o what_o if_o a_o particular_a congregation_n under_o the_o jurisdiction_n of_o your_o eldership_n reflect_v upon_o the_o oath_n or_o covenant_n it_o have_v take_v for_o subjection_n thereunto_o as_o likewise_o upon_o all_o other_o engagement_n that_o way_n as_o unlawful_a shall_v peremptory_o refuse_v to_o stand_v to_o the_o award_v or_o determination_n of_o it_o what_o will_v you_o do_v in_o this_o case_n will_v you_o excommunicate_v this_o church_n the_o apologist_n in_o their_o way_n do_v little_o less_o or_o will_v you_o deliver_v they_o brachio_n seculari_fw-la to_o be_v hamper_v and_o teach_v better_a than_o it_o seem_v you_o can_v teach_v they_o by_o prison_n fine_n banishment_n etc._n etc._n church_n have_v need_n take_v heed_n how_o they_o choose_v man_n for_o their_o guardian_n that_o will_v so_o dispose_v of_o they_o if_o they_o please_v they_o not_o 2._o and_o what_o if_o in_o the_o session_n of_o your_o combine_a eldership_n there_o be_v no_o such_o thing_n as_o plurality_n of_o vote_n concern_v the_o excommunication_n of_o such_o a_o church_n be_v not_o the_o remedy_n you_o speak_v of_o now_o in_o the_o dust_n a._n s._n to_o the_o first_o quaere_fw-la i_o answer_v that_o we_o must_v do_v by_o spiritual_a power_n in_o the_o church_n that_o that_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n do_v by_o the_o secular_a power_n in_o the_o
service_n that_o those_o never_o sufficient_o commend_v prince_n of_o your_o illustrious_a house_n have_v do_v for_o the_o cause_n of_o god_n they_o can_v not_o but_o prove_v very_o unthankful_a both_o to_o god_n and_o to_o your_o highness_n and_o yet_o in_o such_o a_o case_n must_v not_o your_o highness_n for_o all_o that_o loose_a courage_n your_o cause_n be_v his_o cause_n who_o be_v all-sufficient_a and_o therefore_o your_o highness_n will_v do_v well_o to_o cast_v your_o self_n whole_o upon_o he_o attend_v his_o good_a pleasure_n and_o i_o be_o assure_v that_o your_o deliverance_n shall_v come_v in_o his_o good_a time_n which_o that_o he_o will_v be_v please_v to_o hasten_v so_o pray_v so_o hope_v so_o earnest_o desire_v he_o who_o be_v whole_o resolve_v in_o all_o sincerity_n all_o his_o life_n long_o to_o remain_v your_o highness_n most_o humble_a most_o obedient_a and_o most_o faithful_a servant_n adam_n stevart_n how_o great_a be_v and_o wherein_o consist_v the_o civil_a magistrate_n power_n in_o matter_n ecclesiastical_a or_o concern_v religion_n chap._n i._n the_o state_n of_o the_o question_n it_o be_v a_o old_a trick_n of_o heretic_n and_o schismatic_n that_o when_o the_o orthodox_n church_n oppose_v their_o novelty_n what_o they_o can_v get_v of_o the_o church_n they_o travel_v to_o obtain_v it_o at_o court_n and_o therefore_o to_o arrive_v at_o their_o aim_n they_o flatter_v the_o prince_n of_o the_o earth_n and_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n in_o cry_v up_o the_o civil_a and_o decry_v the_o ecclesiastical_a power_n and_o thus_o do_v the_o arrian_n in_o former_a and_o the_o arminian_o in_o latter_a time_n in_o who_o footstep_n our_o brethren_n the_o independent_o at_o this_o present_a do_v seem_v to_o tread_v and_o for_o this_o end_n they_o confound_v all_o thing_n yea_o what_o ever_o be_v well_o say_v as_o may_v be_v see_v by_o this_o their_o scratch_n and_o bite_v at_o my_o word_n travel_v as_o they_o do_v every_o where_o to_o confound_v what_o i_o have_v most_o clear_o write_v wherefore_o the_o better_a to_o show_v this_o author_n fraud_n and_o guile_n and_o my_o own_o sincerity_n i_o will_v here_o set_v down_o what_o i_o say_v and_o what_o he_o oppose_v apol._n narr_n in_o speak_v to_o the_o parliament_n name_v it_o the_o supreme_a judicatory_a severe_a tribunal_n the_o most_o sacred_a refuge_n and_o asylum_n for_o mistake_a and_o misjudge_v innocence_n a._n s._n the_o parliament_n indeed_o be_v all_o this_o in_o civil_a cause_n but_o it_o pretend_v no_o directive_n power_n in_o matter_n of_o religion_n by_o teach_v or_o preach_v or_o judge_v of_o controversy_n of_o religion_n nor_o any_o executive_a power_n that_o be_v intrinsical_v unto_o the_o church_n as_o in_o the_o vocation_n deposition_n and_o suspension_n of_o minister_n in_o ecclesiastical_a censure_n in_o excommunication_n etc._n etc._n which_o be_v mere_o spiritual_a but_o only_o a_o executive_a coercive_a and_o external_a power_n which_o be_v not_o in_o but_o about_o the_o church_n and_o for_o the_o church_n whereby_o it_o compel_v refractory_a man_n to_o obey_v the_o church_n and_o this_o authority_n belong_v actual_o and_o in_o effect_n in_o actu_fw-la exercito_fw-la as_o they_o say_v &_o jure_v in_o re_fw-la to_o true_a christian_a magistrate_n but_o to_o other_o potential_o in_o actu_fw-la signato_fw-la &_o jure_fw-la in_o rem_fw-la till_o they_o become_v true_a christian_n my_o adversary_n here_o carp_v first_o at_o the_o word_n arrogate_v as_o if_o it_o be_v evermore_o take_v in_o ill_a part_n and_o signify_v to_o assume_v proud_o to_o a_o man_n self_n a._n stewart_n but_o he_o may_v know_v that_o be_v a_o stranger_n and_o have_v live_v the_o most_o part_n of_o my_o life_n abroad_o i_o be_o now_o and_o then_o constrain_v to_o take_v the_o word_n upon_o truâ—t_n yet_o for_o this_o word_n since_o he_o have_v put_v i_o upon_o the_o perusal_n of_o my_o dictionary_n i_o must_v tell_v he_o i_o find_v no_o such_o thing_n as_o he_o say_v there_o indeed_o i_o find_v the_o word_n arrogant_a arrogant_o and_o arrogancy_n to_o be_v take_v as_o he_o such_o but_o not_o the_o word_n arrogate_v for_o it_o be_v turn_v in_o french_a s'arroger_n s'attribuer_o s'appropriâ—r_fw-fr and_o in_o latin_a arrogo_fw-la all_o which_o be_v take_v in_o good_a part_n before_o ever_o independency_n be_v in_o rerum_fw-la natura_fw-la but_o i_o will_v not_o let_v myself_o be_v caption_n fly_v draw_v from_o the_o question_n by_o this_o man_n grammatical_a sophistication_n if_o any_o thing_n be_v here_o amiss_o as_o there_o be_v nothing_o it_o will_v i_o hope_v be_v sufficient_a that_o i_o here_o declare_v that_o that_o be_v never_o my_o meaning_n i_o confess_v they_o have_v more_o and_o better_a language_n than_o i_o but_o i_o be_o content_a that_o my_o reason_n go_v as_o far_o beyond_o they_o as_o their_o language_n beyond_o i_o afterward_o in_o the_o same_o page_n he_o accuse_v i_o of_o contradict_v myself_o in_o follow_v proposition_n the_o parliament_n have_v no_o directive_n power_n by_o teach_v preach_a etc._n etc._n the_o parliament_n be_v wise_a enough_o to_o know_v what_o be_v convenient_a for_o the_o church_n i_o answer_v and_o answer_v again_o that_o every_o young_a boy_n that_o learn_v his_o rudiment_n in_o logic_n know_v that_o a_o contradiction_n be_v only_o betwixt_o two_o proposition_n which_o have_v the_o same_o attribute_n which_o be_v not_o to_o be_v find_v here_o for_o the_o attribute_n in_o the_o first_o be_v have_v no_o directive_n power_n etc._n etc._n but_o in_o the_o second_o wise_a enough_o etc._n etc._n 2._o neither_o be_v it_o credible_a that_o every_o man_n who_o be_v wiâ—e_o enough_o to_o know_v what_o be_v convenient_a for_o the_o church_n have_v a_o directive_n power_n therein_o in_o preach_v teach_v etc._n etc._n for_o the_o independent_o have_v many_o among_o they_o in_o their_o church_n who_o have_v as_o much_o learning_n three_o or_o four_o day_n before_o they_o be_v receive_v to_o be_v member_n of_o their_o church_n as_o three_o or_o four_o day_n after_o and_o yet_o before_o they_o be_v receive_v member_n into_o their_o church_n howsoever_o they_o know_v well_o enough_o what_o be_v convenient_a for_o the_o church_n have_v yet_o no_o directive_n power_n in_o it_o to_o teach_v etc._n etc._n 3._o a_o little_a after_o viz._n p._n 34._o §_o 2._o this_o judicious_a observator_fw-la of_o contradiction_n declare_v ingenious_o that_o he_o know_v not_o what_o i_o mean_v by_o a_o directive_n power_n and_o yet_o here_o he_o tell_v i_o that_o i_o contradict_v myself_o but_o how_o be_v it_o possible_a that_o he_o shall_v know_v that_o i_o contradict_v myself_o in_o that_o that_o he_o himself_o understand_v not_o he_o know_v not_o what_o thing_n i_o pose_v and_o yet_o he_o find_v they_o oppose_v one_o to_o another_o i_o find_v he_o here_o oppose_v to_o himself_o and_o in_o find_v out_o a_o contradiction_n in_o my_o word_n he_o contradict_v himself_o and_o so_o take_v away_o this_o pretend_a contradiction_n because_o he_o know_v not_o what_o be_v a_o directive_n power_n wherein_o he_o find_v this_o imaginary_a contradiction_n he_o say_v a._n s._n shall_v befriend_v my_o intellect_n to_o tell_v i_o plain_o and_o distinct_o what_o he_o mean_v by_o a_o directive_n power_n in_o matter_n of_o religion_n a._n s._n wherefore_o if_o i_o can_v befriend_v your_o will_n i_o will_v travel_v to_o befriend_v your_o intellect_n not_o only_o in_o declare_v you_o what_o be_v a_o directive_n power_n etc._n etc._n but_o also_o in_o expound_v all_o the_o term_n of_o this_o question_n learn_v therefore_o i_o pray_v you_o 1._o that_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n qua_fw-la talis_fw-la be_v he_o who_o govern_v the_o state_n qua_fw-la talem_fw-la i_o say_v qua_fw-la talis_fw-la and_o qua_fw-la talem_fw-la for_o it_o may_v fall_v out_o that_o he_o who_o be_v a_o civil_a magistrate_n to_o govern_v the_o state_n may_v also_o be_v choose_v to_o govern_v the_o church_n in_o quality_n of_o a_o rule_v elder_a etc._n etc._n but_o that_o he_o do_v not_o in_o quality_n of_o a_o civil_a magistrate_n for_o than_o he_o shall_v not_o need_v to_o be_v choose_v to_o be_v a_o rule_v elder_n for_o in_o quality_n of_o a_o civil_a magistrate_n already_o he_o shall_v have_v have_v that_o power_n 2._o learn_v that_o by_o the_o word_n church_n i_o understand_v the_o visible_a militant_a church_n both_o real_a and_o representative_a in_o church_n officer_n viz._n 1._o in_o session_n or_o presbytery_n 2._o in_o class_n 3._o in_o provincial_n and_o 4._o in_o nationall_n and_o 5._o in_o ecumenical_a synod_n but_o so_o that_o it_o must_v be_v take_v sometime_o for_o the_o real_a church_n alone_o as_o when_o we_o say_v the_o presbytery_n rule_v the_o church_n sometime_o for_o the_o representative_a alone_o as_o when_o we_o say_v tell_v the_o church_n and_o evermore_o ratione_fw-la subjectae_fw-la materiae_fw-la 3._o
procure_v her_o peace_n and_o to_o put_v all_o the_o church_n of_o god_n in_o confusion_n rather_o than_o in_o order_n 21._o be_v it_o credible_a that_o god_n shall_v have_v give_v his_o son_n to_o death_n to_o purchase_v we_o a_o order_n whereby_o all_o church_n may_v live_v in_o peace_n and_o unity_n and_o yet_o make_v they_o to_o quit_v all_o sacramental_a communion_n one_o with_o another_o have_v no_o common_a confession_n of_o faith_n nor_o any_o common_a platform_n of_o ecclesiastical_a government_n among_o they_o whether_o in_o the_o militant_a visible_a church_n there_o shall_v be_v a_o jndependency_n of_o church_n chap._n i._n the_o question_n state_v as_o m._n s._n of_o the_o first_o question_n make_v two_o so_o do_v he_o here_o of_o the_o second_o other_o two_o viz._n his_o three_o question_n for_o presbyterial_a government_n whereof_o he_o treat_v in_o the_o former_a chap._n and_o his_o 4._o question_v of_o independency_n whereof_o he_o treat_v in_o this_o his_o 4._o chap._n but_o they_o be_v not_o two_o question_n but_o two_o divers_a opinion_n about_o one_o and_o the_o same_o question_n so_o have_v commit_v this_o fault_n he_o commit_v again_o another_o much_o worse_o for_o he_o go_v on_o very_a confuse_o in_o the_o begin_n of_o his_o dispute_n and_o without_o ever_o state_v the_o question_n or_o declare_v what_o he_o mean_v by_o independency_n he_o go_v about_o to_o justify_v his_o independent_a government_n in_o a_o cataskevastique_a or_o assertive_a way_n wherefore_o to_o the_o end_n that_o the_o reader_n may_v the_o better_a judge_n both_o of_o his_o cataskevastique_n and_o of_o my_o anaskevastique_a way_n i_o will_v state_n the_o question_n and_o show_v what_o he_o have_v to_o prove_v and_o i_o to_o refute_v 1._o note_v therefore_o i_o pray_v thou_o courteous_a reader_n that_o independency_n be_v a_o sort_n of_o ecclesiastical_a government_n whereby_o every_o particular_a church_n be_v rule_v by_o its_o minister_n its_o doctor_n some_o rule_v elder_n and_o all_o those_o who_o be_v admit_v to_o be_v member_n thereof_o who_o how_o heterodox_n and_o haereticall_a soever_o they_o be_v in_o doctrine_n and_o how_o wicked_a and_o damnable_a soever_o they_o be_v in_o their_o life_n will_v not_o yet_o submit_v to_o any_o ecclesiastical_a power_n whatsoever_o yea_o not_o to_o that_o of_o all_o the_o church_n of_o the_o world_n be_v they_o never_o so_o orthodox_n and_o holy_a in_o their_o life_n 2._o note_v that_o the_o reason_n wherefore_o they_o will_v not_o submit_v to_o any_o ecclesiastical_a authority_n according_a to_o their_o opinion_n be_v not_o out_o of_o any_o disobedience_n in_o themselves_o as_o they_o pretend_v but_o for_o want_v of_o authority_n in_o the_o church_n for_o they_o believe_v that_o howbeit_o any_o particular_a church_n or_o any_o of_o her_o member_n shall_v fall_v into_o never_o so_o damnable_a heresy_n or_o wickedness_n that_o yet_o god_n have_v not_o ordain_v any_o authoritative_a power_n to_o judge_v she_o but_o that_o her_o power_n be_v as_o great_a as_o that_o of_o all_o the_o church_n in_o the_o world_n and_o that_o all_o that_o they_o can_v do_v in_o such_o a_o case_n be_v no_o more_o but_o only_o to_o counsel_n she_o as_o she_o may_v do_v they_o and_o in_o case_n she_o will_v not_o follow_v their_o counsel_n that_o they_o ought_v to_o do_v nothing_o else_o but_o only_o declare_v that_o they_o will_v have_v no_o more_o communion_n with_o she_o as_o she_o may_v likewise_o do_v to_o they_o in_o the_o like_a case_n viz._n if_o they_o will_v not_o follow_v her_o advice_n when_o she_o be_v offend_v with_o their_o doctrine_n government_n life_n or_o proceed_n the_o question_n then_o betwixt_o we_o and_o they_o be_v whether_o god_n have_v establish_v any_o such_o independent_a government_n in_o his_o church_n or_o not_o we_o deny_v it_o m._n s._n affirm_v it_o and_o argue_v as_o follow_v m._n s._n page_n 75._o of_o his_o book_n who_o then_o can_v lay_v any_o thing_n to_o the_o charge_n of_o this_o government_n that_o can_v i_o quoth_v a._n s._n in_o effect_n page_n 38_o 39_o etc._n etc._n i_o have_v 10._o reason_n or_o objection_n against_o it_o a._n s._n i_o confess_v that_o m._n s._n brag_v of_o this_o his_o independent_a government_n as_o his_o word_n express_v but_o it_o be_v a_o manifest_a untruth_n that_o ever_o i_o brag_v of_o 16._o reason_n as_o m._n s._n most_o foolish_o represent_v i_o here_o it_o be_v a._n s._n his_o custom_n to_o bring_v reason_n and_o not_o to_o boast_v of_o they_o as_o it_o be_v m._n s._n his_o manner_n to_o boast_v and_o brag_v with_o high_a word_n without_o any_o reason_n at_o all_o and_o for_o answer_v to_o this_o i_o say_v there_o be_v no_o one_o such_o word_n or_o expression_n in_o all_o my_o book_n it_o be_v but_o m._n s._n his_o word_n and_o fiction_n m._n s._n i_o shall_v not_o spend_v time_n in_o transcribe_v these_o your_o reason_n but_o shall_v desire_v the_o reader_n though_o it_o may_v be_v some_o discourtesy_n unto_o you_o to_o take_v your_o book_n into_o his_o hand_n a._n s._n i_o be_o bind_v to_o your_o courtesy_n good_a sir_n that_o will_v not_o let_v my_o weak_a reason_n appear_v in_o front_n against_o your_o strong_a answer_n but_o since_o it_o be_v not_o m._n s._n his_o pleasure_n that_o they_o appear_v in_o his_o most_o worthy_a book_n i_o hope_v that_o the_o courteous_a reader_n shall_v not_o be_v offend_v if_o i_o make_v they_o together_o with_o his_o answer_n and_o a._n s._n his_o duplye_n appear_v here_o in_o i_o my_o argument_n then_o be_v such_o as_o follow_v chap._n ii_o reason_n against_o the_o independency_n of_o particular_a congregation_n 1._o the_o independent_a church_n have_v no_o sufficient_a remedy_n for_o miscarriage_n though_o never_o so_o gross_a no_o relief_n for_o wrongful_a sentence_n or_o person_n injure_v by_o they_o no_o powerful_a or_o effectual_a mean_n to_o reduce_v a_o church_n or_o church_n that_o fall_v into_o heresy_n or_o schism_n etc._n etc._n all_o that_o they_o can_v do_v be_v only_o to_o pronounce_v a_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n against_o delinquent_n church_n as_o on_o the_o other_o side_n delinquent_n church_n may_v do_v against_o they_o 2._o this_o remedy_n be_v new_a neither_o be_v it_o know_v to_o the_o independent_a congregation_n before_o that_o emergent_a case_n in_o holland_n relate_v in_o the_o apologetical_a narration_n for_o if_o that_o church_n offend_v have_v know_v so_o much_o it_o be_v not_o credible_a that_o she_o will_v against_o all_o charity_n and_o the_o common_a order_n of_o all_o church_n have_v commit_v so_o great_a a_o scandal_n 3._o this_o remedy_n be_v not_o sufficient_a nor_o satisfactory_a because_o all_o church_n according_a to_o your_o tenet_n be_v equal_a in_o authority_n independent_a one_o of_o another_o and_o par_n in_o parem_fw-la non_fw-la habet_fw-la imperium_fw-la none_o have_v power_n or_o authority_n over_o his_o equal_a how_o then_o can_v any_o church_n bind_v another_o to_o any_o such_o account_n but_o out_o of_o its_o free_a will_n as_o a_o party_n may_v do_v to_o its_o party_n 4._o because_o the_o church_n that_o be_v or_o that_o pretend_v to_o be_v offend_v by_o a_o delinquent_n church_n can_v judge_v she_o for_o than_o they_o become_v both_o judge_n and_o party_n in_o one_o cause_n which_o can_v be_v grant_v to_o those_o who_o have_v no_o authoritative_a power_n one_o over_o another_o as_o when_o a_o private_a man_n offend_v the_o state_n and_o we_o our_o god_n 5._o what_o if_o many_o church_n yea_o all_o the_o church_n shall_v offend_v one_o shall_v that_o one_o church_n gather_v all_o the_o rest_n together_o judge_v they_o all_o and_o in_o case_n of_o not_o submit_v themselves_o to_o her_o judgement_n separate_v herself_o from_o they_o all_o if_o so_o we_o shall_v have_v separation_n and_o schism_n enough_o which_o shall_v be_v continue_v to_o all_o posterity_n to_o come_v 6._o what_o if_o church_n be_v so_o remote_a one_o from_o another_o that_o they_o can_v not_o so_o easy_o meet_v together_o upon_o every_o occasion_n then_o there_o shall_v be_v no_o remedy_n at_o least_o not_o easy_a remedy_n 7._o what_o if_o the_o offence_n be_v small_a shall_v so_o many_o church_n for_o every_o trifle_n gather_v together_o and_o put_v themselves_o to_o so_o great_a cost_n and_o trouble_v 8._o what_o if_o the_o church_n shall_v differ_v in_o their_o judgement_n one_o from_o another_o in_o such_o a_o case_n shall_v they_o all_o by_o schism_n separate_v themselves_o one_o from_o another_o 9_o this_o sort_n of_o government_n give_v no_o more_o power_n or_o authority_n to_o a_o thousand_o church_n over_o one_o then_o to_o a_o tinker_n yea_o to_o a_o hangman_n over_o a_o thousand_o for_o he_o may_v desire_v they_o all_o out_o of_o charity_n to_o give_v a_o account_n of_o their_o judgement_n in_o case_n he_o be_v offend_v
state_n in_o such_o a_o case_n 2._o the_o minister_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n must_v proceed_v spiritual_o against_o all_o delinquent_n and_o impenitent_a person_n as_o the_o minister_n in_o the_o old_a testament_n do_v against_o they_o according_a to_o god_n word_n unless_o such_o a_o proceed_n by_o abrogate_a in_o the_o new_a testament_n 3._o they_o must_v do_v as_o m._n s._n have_v teach_v we_o as_o they_o do_v against_o particular_a person_n in_o commensurate_v the_o punishment_n to_o the_o sin_n i_o e._n they_o must_v proceed_v by_o particular_a admonition_n and_o censure_n against_o lesser_a sin_n in_o private_a or_o before_o the_o presbytery_n by_o suspension_n from_o the_o lord_n table_n against_o great_a sin_n by_o public_a suspension_n or_o lesser_a excommunication_n against_o great_a sin_n and_o by_o the_o great_a excommunication_n against_o the_o great_a sin_n 4._o m._n s._n confess_v that_o the_o apologist_n in_o their_o way_n do_v little_o less_o a._n s._n if_o so_o than_o they_o do_v a_o little_a worse_o than_o the_o presbyterian_o and_o so_o they_o quit_v a_o little_a m._n s._n his_o own_o rule_n whereby_o he_o will_v they_o to_o proceed_v as_o against_o particular_a person_n 5._o if_o all_o this_o suffice_v not_o it_o be_v the_o civil_a magistrate_n part_v to_o proceed_v against_o they_o as_o troubler_n of_o the_o peace_n of_o the_o church_n and_o consequent_o of_o the_o christian_a state_n and_o not_o to_o permit_v they_o to_o erect_v a_o new_a sect_n as_o it_o be_v ordinary_o practise_v among_o the_o independent_o of_o new_a england_n 6._o they_o must_v be_v punish_v for_o their_o perjury_n and_o for_o the_o breach_n of_o their_o covenant_n but_o none_o of_o those_o punishment_n can_v be_v inflict_v but_o after_o sufficient_a conviction_n at_o least_o moral_o in_o foro_fw-la externo_fw-la and_o such_o punishment_n be_v the_o fit_a for_o they_o after_o such_o a_o conviction_n when_o they_o pertinacious_o resist_v the_o spirit_n of_o god_n for_o such_o man_n fear_v more_o the_o gibbet_n than_o hell-fire_n what_o you_o say_v of_o your_o second_o chapter_n it_o be_v sufficient_o answer_v what_o you_o say_v of_o church_n that_o they_o have_v need_v to_o take_v heed_n how_o they_o choose_v man_n for_o their_o guardian_n etc._n etc._n if_o by_o those_o guardian_n you_o mean_v the_o civil_a magistrate_n it_o be_v not_o wise_o say_v of_o you_o if_o church-minister_n they_o must_v choose_v such_o as_o will_v delate_v pertinacious_a sinner_n to_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n to_o your_o second_o question_n what_o if_o in_o the_o session_n etc._n etc._n answ_n 1._o what_o if_o it_o be_v so_o in_o your_o assembly_n or_o synod_n 2._o if_o it_o be_v any_o inferior_a ecclesiastical_a judicatory_a they_o must_v remit_v it_o to_o a_o superior_a ever_o till_o they_o come_v to_o some_o wherein_o the_o vote_n may_v preponderate_v and_o if_o in_o the_o supreme_a judicatory_a viz._n in_o a_o nationall_n assembly_n the_o vote_n preponderate_v not_o concern_v the_o excommunication_n of_o such_o a_o church_n which_o be_v very_o extraordinary_a she_o can_v be_v excommunicate_v and_o yet_o if_o her_o opinion_n or_o sin_n be_v condemn_v the_o combine_a eldership_n may_v inflict_v some_o lesser_a spiritual_a punishment_n and_o if_o such_o a_o church_n continue_v still_o pertinacious_a the_o civil_a magistrate_n may_v proceed_v against_o she_o in_o a_o civil_a way_n as_o we_o have_v say_v neither_o be_v this_o a_o compliance_n with_o papist_n in_o quality_n of_o papist_n but_o in_o so_o far_o forth_o as_o they_o agree_v with_o scripture_n 1._o for_o so_o proceed_v the_o church_n of_o the_o old_a testament_n 2._o so_o proceed_v the_o church_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n in_o the_o time_n of_o good_a emperor_n as_o under_o constantine_n the_o great_a theodosius_n etc._n etc._n 3._o so_o proceed_v they_o at_o geneva_n 4._o so_o in_o the_o netherlands_o 5._o so_o the_o independent_o of_o new-england_n 6._o so_o shall_v m.s._n rather_o do_v then_o to_o tolerate_v open_a blasphemer_n of_o the_o bless_a name_n of_o god_n 7._o dare_v thou_o m._n s._n so_o open_o plead_v in_o favour_n of_o paganism_n of_o all_o sort_n of_o heresy_n and_o mischief_n and_o for_o all_o sort_n of_o impunity_n for_o they_o all_o 8._o the_o truth_n fall_v not_o to_o the_o dust_n in_o such_o a_o case_n but_o sin_n be_v punish_v but_o not_o in_o such_o a_o degree_n as_o it_o shall_v be_v to_o the_o second_o inconveniency_n that_o i_o object_n against_o the_o independent_o §_o 4._o viz._n that_o the_o independent_a church_n offend_v if_o they_o judge_v the_o offend_a church_n they_o shall_v be_v both_o judge_n and_o party_n m._n s._n repli_v p._n 80._o §_o 3._o when_o your_o combine_a eldership_n proceed_v against_o a_o particular_a church_n among_o you_o upon_o offence_n take_v be_v not_o this_o eldership_n as_o well_o party_n as_o judge_n a.s._n my_o argument_n impli_v the_o solution_n of_o this_o objection_n viz._n that_o the_o combine_a eldership_n can_v be_v party_n in_o such_o a_o cause_n because_o it_o have_v a_o authoritative_a power_n over_o the_o particular_a church_n howbeit_o spiritual_a and_o ministerial_a as_o the_o parliament_n over_o particular_a judicatories_n in_o the_o kingdom_n but_o party_n look_v one_o to_o another_o as_o par_fw-fr parem_fw-la and_o not_o as_o superior_a inferiorem_fw-la 2._o neither_o can_v any_o man_n or_o consociation_n take_v his_o ordinary_a judge_n to_o party_n unless_o he_o have_v some_o particular_a exception_n against_o he_o 3._o i_o propound_v you_o the_o same_o question_n concern_v the_o particular_a tribe_n and_o the_o synagogicall_a judicatories_n among_o the_o people_n of_o god_n in_o the_o old_a testament_n when_o the_o great_a sanedrim_n take_v offence_n at_o they_o or_o at_o their_o judgement_n whether_o the_o great_a sanedrim_n be_v not_o both_o judge_n and_o party_n or_o rather_o whether_o under_o the_o notion_n of_o offence_n take_v it_o be_v not_o to_o be_v consider_v as_o a_o party_n and_o under_o the_o notion_n of_o authoritative_a power_n as_o a_o judge_n 4._o i_o propound_v it_o of_o the_o state_n whether_o the_o parliament_n may_v not_o be_v consider_v as_o party_n be_v offend_v at_o any_o particular_a consociation_n and_o as_o judge_n in_o quality_n of_o the_o representative_a body_n of_o the_o whole_a kingdom_n or_o if_o it_o be_v evermore_o needful_a that_o some_o particular_a person_n or_o person_n compeare_v in_o quality_n of_o party_n against_o particular_a consociation_n or_o town_n 5._o in_o your_o particular_a congregation_n may_v not_o your_o church_n under_o divers_a notion_n be_v consider_v as_o judge_n and_o party_n or_o may_v every_o delinquent_n take_v your_o whole_a presbytery_n or_o congregation_n to_o party_n 6._o do_v not_o the_o arminian_o serve_v themselves_o of_o this_o independent_a argument_n against_o the_o synod_n of_o dort_n to_o decline_v the_o synod_n power_n and_o be_v not_o both_o they_o and_o this_o their_o argument_n condemn_v by_o the_o judgement_n of_o the_o synod_n as_o very_o absurd_a and_o unapt_a 7._o this_o argument_n conclude_v against_o all_o the_o superior_a power_n of_o this_o world_n again_o m.s._n 1._o tell_v we_o that_o this_o authoritative_a power_n of_o combine_a presbytery_n over_o congregation_n be_v not_o from_o above_o a._n s._n but_o we_o have_v prove_v it_o to_o be_v from_o above_o and_o from_o god_n as_o author_n of_o nature_n and_o of_o grace_n see_v the_o question_n concern_v the_o subordination_n of_o ecclesiastical_a judicatories_n 2._o core_n dathan_n and_o abiram_n object_v no_o less_o against_o moses_n and_o aaron_n yea_o as_o much_o may_v be_v object_v against_o god_n himself_o who_o be_v judge_n and_o party_n and_o jesus_n christ_n who_o be_v party_n and_o yet_o shall_v judge_v the_o quick_a and_o the_o dead_a for_o if_o criminal_n may_v so_o escape_v they_o will_v not_o fail_v to_o take_v their_o judge_n evermore_o for_o party_n m._n s._n to_o hold_v that_o all_o those_o that_o have_v a_o authoritative_a power_n over_o man_n may_v lawful_o in_o virtue_n of_o such_o a_o power_n be_v both_o judge_n and_o party_n be_v to_o exalt_v all_o manner_n of_o tyranny_n etc._n etc._n by_o law_n for_o so_o in_o church_n and_o state_n man_n invest_v with_o such_o a_o power_n may_v be_v their_o own_o carver_n and_o serve_v themselves_o of_o the_o estate_n liberty_n and_o life_n of_o those_o that_o be_v under_o they_o how_o and_o when_o and_o as_o oft_o as_o they_o listen_v add_v but_o the_o consequence_n be_v false_a ergo_fw-la so_o be_v the_o antecedent_n a.s._n i_o deny_v the_o consequence_n for_o they_o have_v not_o a_o absolute_a but_o a_o limit_a power_n according_a to_o law_n and_o not_o to_o their_o own_o particular_a but_o public_a will_n or_o in_o quality_n of_o public_a person_n who_o will_n be_v declare_v in_o or_o restrain_v according_a to_o law_n neither_o command_v carolus_n the_o kingdom_n qua_fw-la carolus_n but_o
of_o the_o presbyterian_a remedy_n against_o such_o mischief_n or_o of_o the_o mischief_n itself_o for_o we_o must_v never_o in_o any_o case_n accept_v of_o malum_fw-la culpae_fw-la such_o as_o be_v the_o acceptation_n of_o apostasy_n or_o heresy_n in_o a_o whole_a church_n 4._o neither_o be_v there_o any_o nor_o have_v you_o yet_o show_v any_o inconveniency_n in_o the_o presbyterial_a way_n but_o we_o have_v show_v many_o as_o real_a in_o the_o independent_a way_n as_o those_o be_v imaginary_a that_o you_o attribute_v to_o the_o presbyterian_a way_n 5._o all_o the_o inconveniency_n that_o this_o man_n pretend_v to_o be_v in_o the_o presbyterian_a way_n be_v dependency_n of_o particular_a congregation_n upon_o superior_a assembly_n viz._n class_n synod_n etc._n etc._n or_o subordination_n among_o ecclesiastical_a judicatories_n for_o this_o sect_n must_v be_v altogether_o independent_a and_o every_o one_o in_o their_o church_n supreme_a ecclesiastical_a judge_n and_o their_o church_n supreme_a ecclesiastical_a judicatories_n be_v they_o never_o so_o heretical_a or_o profane_a but_o this_o inconveniency_n may_v be_v press_v home_o again_o 1._o for_o there_o be_v subordination_n among_o their_o particular_a congregation_n and_o their_o synod_n only_o they_o hate_v the_o authority_n of_o synod_n 2._o there_o be_v a_o subordination_n of_o authority_n in_o the_o old_a testament_n 3._o so_o be_v there_o in_o civil_a government_n and_o whatsoever_o inconveniency_n they_o press_v against_o we_o it_o will_v hold_v in_o all_o the_o rest_n as_o we_o shall_v see_v hereafter_o god_n will_v 4._o if_o such_o a_o dependency_n or_o subordination_n be_v any_o inconveniency_n than_o god_n be_v the_o cause_n of_o it_o as_o we_o have_v heretofore_o full_o demonstrate_v it_o m._n s._n delinquency_n of_o whole_a church_n be_v not_o a_o every_o day_n case_n no_o more_o in_o the_o way_n of_o congregationall_a then_o of_o presbyterial_a government_n a._n s._n 1._o it_o may_v be_v as_o ordinary_a a_o case_n in_o the_o church_n as_o that_o of_o inferior_a judicatories_n in_o the_o state_n 2._o and_o it_o fall_v out_o among_o the_o arminian_o and_o we_o 3._o so_o do_v it_o among_o your_o church_n in_o holland_n 4._o so_o do_v it_o betwixt_o you_o and_o we_o since_o you_o be_v become_v sectary_n 5._o so_o do_v it_o among_o all_o church_n that_o become_v heretical_a or_o schismatical_a and_o the_o orthodox_n church_n and_o the_o apostle_n tell_v we_o that_o there_o must_v be_v heresy_n 1_o cor._n 11.19_o so_o it_o be_v not_o so_o extraordinary_a a_o case_n as_o you_o m._n s._n make_v it_o and_o therefore_o there_o must_v be_v a_o ecclesiastical_a ordinance_n for_o it_o as_o well_o in_o the_o church_n as_o in_o the_o state_n 1._o unless_o you_o say_v that_o god_n be_v more_o provident_a for_o the_o state_n then_o for_o the_o church_n or_o more_o negligent_a in_o his_o care_n of_o the_o church_n then_o of_o the_o state_n 2._o there_o be_v a_o remedy_n for_o such_o case_n in_o the_o old_a testament_n as_o i_o show_v you_o in_o my_o annotation_n wherefore_o not_o also_o in_o the_o new_a testament_n 3._o howbeit_o it_o be_v not_o a_o every_o day_n case_n yet_o the_o independent_o have_v a_o remedy_n for_o it_o viz._n the_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n whereof_o i_o may_v say_v as_o much_o as_o he_o say_v of_o excommunication_n for_o the_o independent_a church_n can_v not_o pronounce_v such_o a_o sentence_n unless_o they_o have_v or_o pretend_v to_o have_v a_o authoritative_a power_n to_o do_v it_o for_o it_o belong_v to_o the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n 4._o it_o be_v or_o may_v be_v more_o ordinary_a among_o the_o independent_a church_n then_o among_o we_o 1._o because_o of_o their_o independency_n and_o want_v of_o superior_a ecclesiastical_a power_n to_o keep_v they_o in_o order_n 2._o because_o they_o tie_v the_o member_n of_o their_o church_n never_o to_o quit_v they_o without_o the_o church_n consent_n whereof_o they_o be_v member_n which_o may_v breed_v quarrel_n betwixt_o two_o church_n if_o a_o member_n of_o the_o one_o without_o her_o consent_n join_v himself_o to_o the_o other_o 3._o and_o this_o may_v be_v confirm_v by_o the_o example_n of_o those_o most_o bitter_a quarrel_n betwixt_o two_o of_o your_o church_n and_o their_o pastor_n in_o holland_n as_o it_o be_v relate_v by_o master_n edward_n in_o his_o antapologia_fw-la but_o according_a to_o ordinary_a providence_n no_o such_o thing_n can_v fall_v out_o among_o our_o church_n and_o if_o it_o shall_v fall_v out_o we_o have_v a_o present_a remedy_n viz._n a_o class_n which_o may_v be_v gather_v within_o the_o space_n of_o four_o or_o five_o day_n if_o that_o do_v not_o the_o business_n we_o may_v gather_v a_o synod_n or_o a_o superior_a power_n which_o can_v moral_o be_v contemn_v among_o we_o by_o any_o inferior_a power_n as_o the_o equal_a power_n of_o independent_a church_n may_v by_o their_o equal_a if_o it_o fall_v out_o extraordinary_o among_o we_o we_o have_v a_o ordinary_a remedy_n for_o such_o a_o extraordinary_a case_n and_o howbeit_o it_o be_v extraordinary_a and_o very_o rare_a yet_o shall_v there_o be_v a_o remedy_n provide_v for_o it_o so_o soon_o as_o once_o it_o fall_v out_o for_o it_o be_v a_o case_n that_o bring_v a_o very_a great_a mischief_n with_o it_o viz._n the_o revoult_n of_o a_o church_n or_o many_o church_n that_o be_v a_o inconvenience_n yea_o a_o mischief_n a_o thousand_o time_n worse_o howbeit_o it_o shall_v fall_v out_o but_o once_o in_o a_o age_n than_o all_o the_o dropping_n of_o master_n goodwin_n or_o all_o the_o inconvenience_n that_o can_v be_v allege_v against_o a_o constant_a remedy_n be_v they_o as_o real_a as_o they_o be_v fictitious_a and_o imaginary_a three_o m._n s._n answer_v my_o first_o argument_n they_o that_o implead_v the_o congregationall_a way_n for_o be_v defective_a suppose_v that_o god_n have_v put_v a_o sufficiency_n of_o power_n into_o the_o hand_n of_o man_n to_o remedy_v all_o possible_a defect_n error_n and_o miscarriage_n of_o man_n whatsoever_o but_o that_o be_v untrue_a ergo._n a._n s._n i_o answer_v they_o suppose_v not_o that_o god_n have_v put_v into_o their_o hand_n a_o sufficiency_n of_o power_n to_o remedy_v all_o defect_n and_o miscarriage_n whatsoever_o or_o all_o possible_a absolute_o but_o ex_fw-la suppositione_n finis_fw-la obtinendi_fw-la i._n e._n that_o may_v conduce_v to_o obtain_v the_o end_n that_o god_n have_v command_v we_o to_o intend_v and_o to_o tend_v unto_o for_o since_o his_o will_n be_v that_o spiritual_a disease_n be_v cure_v it_o must_v consequent_o be_v to_o give_v the_o remedy_n necessary_a or_o sufficient_a to_o obtain_v such_o a_o end_n or_o cure_v 2._o i_o suppose_v not_o that_o god_n have_v give_v we_o all_o mean_n sufficient_a physicè_fw-la but_o moraliter_fw-la i._n e._n that_o be_v moral_o sufficient_a and_o whereby_o moral_o we_o may_v be_v convict_v of_o sin_n if_o we_o use_v they_o not_o as_o cure_v of_o our_o ill_n if_o we_o use_v they_o 3._o i_o suppose_v that_o they_o must_v be_v sufficient_a according_a to_o god_n ordinary_a providence_n whereby_o he_o govern_v ordinary_o his_o church_n and_o not_o absolute_o 4._o as_o sufficient_a as_o in_o the_o civil_a state_n or_o as_o in_o the_o old_a testament_n at_o least_o since_o the_o government_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n be_v as_o perfect_v as_o in_o the_o old_a and_o not_o simple_o or_o absolute_o and_o so_o the_o assumption_n be_v false_a m._n s._n prove_v that_o this_o inconveniency_n press_v as_o well_o the_o presbyterian_o as_o the_o independent_o if_o your_o supreme_a session_n of_o presbytery_n shall_v miscarry_v say_v he_o and_o give_v we_o hay_n stubble_n and_o wood_n instead_o of_o silver_n and_o gold_n what_o remedy_n a._n s._n this_o be_v a_o very_a extraordinary_a case_n yea_o the_o most_o extraordinary_a that_o can_v be_v imagine_v viz._n that_o all_o the_o church_n both_o in_o superior_a and_o inferior_a judicatories_n shall_v so_o miscarry_v and_o yet_o if_o a_o man_n have_v use_v all_o possible_a mean_n and_o this_o miscarry_v also_o which_o be_v more_o than_o any_o ordinary_a case_n we_o may_v say_v 1._o that_o we_o have_v have_v all_o mean_n that_o be_v moral_o possible_a and_o that_o no_o more_o can_v moral_o be_v desire_v 2._o we_o have_v have_v all_o the_o mean_n and_o if_o we_o serve_v ourselves_o of_o they_o all_o till_o we_o come_v to_o this_o extraordinary_a case_n we_o be_v excusable_a 3._o we_o have_v have_v all_o the_o mean_n possible_a according_a to_o god_n ordinary_a providence_n 4._o all_o mean_n that_o they_o have_v in_o the_o old_a testament_n or_o that_o they_o have_v in_o the_o state_n 5._o i_o answer_v that_o this_o supposition_n may_v as_o well_o be_v propound_v against_o god_n providence_n in_o the_o government_n of_o the_o state_n and_o of_o the_o church_n of_o the_o old_a testament_n as_o against_o that_o
difference_n but_o evermore_o by_o their_o externall_n cause_n or_o by_o their_o accident_n and_o sometime_o by_o their_o opposite_n and_o negation_n of_o some_o other_o thing_n the_o very_a apprentice_n in_o logic_n know_v thus_o much_o 4._o but_o if_o we_o know_v the_o essence_n of_o thing_n in_o themselves_o as_o this_o m.s._n pretend_v if_o he_o say_v any_o thing_n to_o purpose_n how_o be_v it_o that_o there_o be_v so_o great_a debate_n about_o they_o as_o 1._o about_o the_o soul_n of_o a_o man_n whether_o it_o be_v spiritual_a or_o corporal_a 2._o about_o the_o total_a essence_n of_o a_o man_n whether_o it_o be_v the_o soul_n alone_o his_o soul_n and_o body_n the_o soul_n and_o its_o materia_fw-la prima_fw-la the_o union_n of_o both_o the_o image_n of_o god_n religion_n or_o some_o other_o thing_n and_o to_o urge_v this_o more_o home_n upon_o your_o example_n of_o the_o light_n if_o we_o know_v the_o essence_n of_o thing_n distinct_o and_o in_o themselves_o as_o i_o say_v what_o be_v the_o cause_n of_o so_o great_a a_o diversity_n yea_o of_o so_o great_a a_o contrariety_n of_o opinion_n about_o its_o essence_n or_o nature_n how_o be_v it_o that_o some_o philosopher_n hold_v it_o to_o be_v in_o some_o predicament_n other_o to_o be_v in_o none_o some_o to_o be_v a_o substance_n other_o a_o accident_n some_o to_o be_v a_o spiritual_a substance_n other_o to_o be_v a_o body_n other_o neither_o viz._n neither_o to_o be_v a_o corporeal_a nor_o a_o spiritual_a but_o a_o spiritalis_fw-la substantia_fw-la other_o the_o presence_n of_o a_o luminous_a body_n other_o a_o real_a colour_n other_o a_o apparent_a colour_n other_o a_o spiritual_a quality_n some_o a_o natural_a power_n other_o a_o sensible_a quality_n if_o we_o know_v it_o essential_o and_o distinct_o in_o itself_o and_o not_o mere_o accidental_o we_o can_v not_o so_o doubt_v of_o its_o essence_n wherein_o it_o consist_v but_o it_o seem_v that_o this_o man_n doctor_n holmes_n and_o some_o of_o that_o sect_n be_v as_o heretical_a in_o philosophy_n as_o schismatical_a in_o divinity_n and_o so_o they_o have_v conspire_v with_o as_o little_a success_n against_o natural_a as_o against_o divine_a truth_n m.s._n say_v that_o my_o meaning_n may_v be_v that_o if_o a_o toleration_n be_v grant_v for_o independency_n the_o practice_n of_o it_o shall_v become_v a_o schism_n from_o the_o presbyterian_a church_n a.s._n no_o such_o thing_n but_o i_o maintain_v that_o independency_n be_v already_o at_o least_o material_o yea_o formal_o ratione_fw-la formae_fw-la essentialis_fw-la &_o in_o foro_fw-la conscientiae_fw-la interno_fw-la a_o schism_n from_o all_o the_o true_a church_n in_o the_o world_n since_o they_o willing_o have_v separate_v themselves_o from_o they_o all_o in_o matter_n of_o sacramental_a communion_n as_o also_o in_o that_o of_o discipline_n and_o you_o shall_v have_v do_v well_o to_o have_v answer_v this_o which_o no_o doubt_n you_o meet_v with_o in_o my_o former_a book_n and_o not_o oblige_v i_o to_o repeat_v it_o here_o it_o will_v also_o be_v a_o schism_n ratione_fw-la formae_fw-la accidentalis_fw-la externae_fw-la &_o in_o fore_n externo_fw-la from_o the_o church_n of_o england_n if_o in_o god_n mercy_n any_o other_o discipline_n then_o independent_a be_v establish_v in_o it_o so_o be_v it_o also_o in_o respect_n of_o the_o presbyterian_a church_n which_o be_v already_o establish_v in_o france_n holland_n etc._n etc._n yea_o and_o here_o in_o england_n in_o the_o french_a dutch_a italian_a and_o spanish_a church_n so_o be_v it_o in_o respect_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n the_o discipline_n whereof_o be_v approve_v by_o the_o king_n which_o you_o have_v all_o swear_v to_o maintain_v but_o say_v he_o we_o have_v no_o presbyterian_a church_n among_o we_o and_o so_o if_o a_o toleration_n be_v grant_v before_o such_o a_o government_n be_v establish_v it_o be_v apparent_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d out_o of_o the_o reach_n of_o such_o a_o imputation_n for_o ever_o a._n s._n 1._o it_o be_v false_a that_o we_o have_v no_o presbyterian_a church_n among_o we_o we_o have_v it_o in_o the_o french_a dutch_a and_o other_o church_n wherewith_o the_o church_n of_o england_n profess_v evermore_o a_o sacramental_a communion_n which_o the_o independent_o break_v 2._o whether_o it_o be_v grant_v by_o the_o parliament_n or_o not_o that_o hinder_v it_o not_o from_o be_v a_o schism_n for_o the_o toleration_n of_o the_o parliament_n be_v altogether_o extrinsecall_v to_o schism_n and_o there_o be_v schism_n in_o the_o primitive_a church_n without_o any_o toleration_n of_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n 3._o his_o supposition_n be_v impious_a and_o ridiculous_a for_o toleration_n according_a to_o m.s._n his_o judgement_n be_v evermore_o of_o some_o real_a or_o at_o least_o of_o some_o apparent_a evil_n now_o can_v the_o parliament_n or_o the_o assembly_n of_o divine_n in_o good_a conscience_n tolerate_v a_o ill_a government_n before_o that_o they_o establish_v any_o good_a one_o be_v not_o that_o to_o begin_v with_o the_o devil_n to_o serve_v he_o before_o that_o we_o serve_v god_n shall_v not_o the_o parliament_n begin_v with_o you_o as_o the_o most_o considerable_a party_n a._n s._n his_o 4._o reason_n if_o a_o toleration_n be_v grant_v to_o our_o brethren_n i_o can_v see_v how_o it_o can_v be_v well_o deny_v to_o other_o sect_n m.s._n answer_v that_o bernardus_n non_fw-la videt_fw-la omne_fw-la a.s._n but_o i_o pray_v you_o then_o father_n epistemon_n that_o see_v all_o thing_n make_v i_o by_o some_o reason_n or_o other_o to_o see_v how_o it_o can_v be_v deny_v to_o other_o sect_n for_o there_o be_v the_o same_o reason_n for_o a_o toleration_n of_o they_o all_o m.s._n bring_v this_o reason_n he_o say_v he_o that_o keep_v a_o door_n with_o lock_n and_o key_n and_o bolt_n to_o it_o may_v let_v in_o one_o man_n that_o knock_v without_o let_v in_o all_o comer_n a.s._n but_o if_o the_o other_o knock_v also_o wherefore_o will_v he_o not_o open_v to_o he_o and_o let_v he_o in_o as_o well_o as_o the_o other_o if_o he_o open_v not_o there_o be_v no_o reason_n but_o will_v that_o keep_v he_o out_o so_o there_o be_v the_o same_o reason_n but_o not_o the_o same_o will_n for_o both_o it_o be_v a_o mere_a prosopolepsiia_n or_o acceptation_n of_o person_n which_o be_v not_o well_o do_v if_o it_o be_v say_v that_o other_o sect_n differ_v more_o from_o we_o than_o the_o independent_o ans_fw-fr 1._o it_o be_v all_o one_o magis_fw-la &_o minus_fw-la non_fw-la mutant_fw-la speciem_fw-la in_o matter_n of_o toleration_n 1._o for_o then_o all_o must_v be_v tolerate_v howsoever_o some_o more_o some_o less_o 2._o and_o some_o of_o our_o brethren_n viz._n m._n s._n grant_v all_o the_o argument_n 3._o and_o if_o we_o distinguish_v so_o they_o must_v declare_v and_o expound_v clear_o what_o sect_n and_o what_o opinion_n be_v to_o be_v tolerate_v and_o what_o not_o which_o will_v be_v a_o question_n inextricable_a which_o no_o mortal_a man_n appear_o be_v able_a distinct_o to_o determine_v m._n s._n answer_v not_o to_o any_o of_o my_o reason_n only_o he_o be_v offend_v that_o i_o say_v it_o be_v a_o question_n inextricable_a etc._n etc._n he_o say_v then_o 1._o that_o i_o prevaricate_v with_o my_o own_o cause_n but_o wherein_o here_o altum_fw-la silentium_fw-la 2._o he_o say_v that_o i_o put_v the_o magistrate_n to_o a_o stand_n whether_o he_o shall_v tolerate_v presbyterian_a government_n or_o not_o but_o i_o have_v already_o answer_v 1._o that_o it_o be_v already_o approve_a here_o in_o england_n in_o the_o french_a dutch_a italian_a and_o spanish_a church_n 2._o that_o the_o english_a divine_n in_o the_o name_n of_o all_o this_o kingdom_n approve_v it_o in_o holland_n 3._o that_o the_o king_n majesty_n confirm_v it_o in_o scotland_n 4._o that_o we_o entertain_v sacramental_a communion_n with_o all_o the_o protestant_n reform_v church_n and_o that_o the_o independent_o alone_o do_v quit_v it_o 5._o that_o all_o the_o three_o kingdom_n and_o the_o independent_o with_o they_o by_o their_o covenant_n and_o oath_n be_v bind_v to_o maintain_v presbyterial_a government_n in_o scotland_n 6._o and_o they_o be_v bind_v to_o reform_v the_o church_n of_o england_n according_a to_o the_o example_n of_o the_o best_a reform_a protestant_a church_n and_o namely_o that_o of_o scotland_n which_o all_o have_v only_a presbyterian_a government_n 7._o and_o we_o have_v sufficient_o confirm_v it_o by_o sundry_a testimony_n of_o scripture_n and_o other_o argument_n ground_v on_o scripture_n 8._o neither_o be_v this_o his_o question_n to_o the_o purpose_n for_o quaestio_fw-la quaestionem_fw-la non_fw-la solvit_fw-la i_o ask_v he_o what_o sect_n be_v to_o be_v tolerate_v in_o a_o kingdom_n wherein_o the_o true_a doctrine_n and_o true_a discipline_n according_a to_o the_o public_a judgement_n both_o of_o the_o state_n and_o of_o the_o church_n be_v establish_v
not_o for_o we_o to_o distinguish_v or_o restrain_v it_o he_o be_v the_o minister_n of_o god_n for_o good_a verse_n 4._o ergo_fw-la for_o this_o good_a viz._n to_o have_v a_o care_n of_o religion_n and_o to_o punish_v such_o as_o trouble_v it_o by_o their_o schism_n and_o heresy_n and_o therefore_o 6._o i_o deny_v the_o consequence_n for_o posito_fw-la uno_fw-la medio_fw-la non_fw-la negantur_fw-la reliqua_fw-la it_o follow_v not_o that_o if_o god_n serve_v himself_o of_o some_o mean_n in_o the_o church_n ergo_fw-la he_o serve_v himself_o of_o any_o other_o mean_n viz._n of_o civil_a authority_n about_o the_o church_n and_o out_o of_o the_o church_n that_o be_v as_o if_o i_o shall_v say_v the_o internal_a cause_n as_o materia_fw-la &_o forma_fw-la be_v necessary_a to_o the_o generation_n of_o a_o man_n ergo_fw-la the_o externall_n as_o the_o efficient_a and_o final_a viz._n god_n and_o man_n be_v not_o necessary_a m._n s._n 2._o the_o minister_n of_o the_o church_n must_v perform_v their_o office_n with_o meekness_n 2_o tim._n 2.24_o ergo_fw-la they_o must_v not_o threaten_v man_n with_o deliver_v they_o over_o to_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n a._n s._n i_o answer_v to_o the_o antecedent_n they_o must_v perform_v their_o duty_n not_o only_o with_o meekness_n but_o also_o with_o severity_n when_o necessity_n require_v it_o as_o we_o see_v in_o saint_n paul_n 2._o the_o text_n 2_o tim._n 2.24_o speak_v only_o of_o meekness_n in_o teach_v in_o meekness_n say_v the_o apostle_n instruct_v those_o that_o oppose_v themselves_o if_o peradventure_o god_n will_v give_v they_o repentance_n 3._o it_o only_o say_v that_o they_o must_v use_v meekness_n when_o man_n be_v docilo_o when_o there_o be_v any_o hope_n of_o repentance_n and_o not_o with_o pertinacious_a heretic_n and_o schismatic_n of_o who_o we_o can_v expect_v repentance_n 4._o i_o deny_v the_o consequence_n when_o the_o minister_n of_o the_o church_n threaten_v they_o to_o deliver_v they_o over_o unto_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n they_o may_v do_v that_o also_o with_o meekness_n neither_o be_v such_o a_o proceed_v contrary_a to_o meekness_n for_o the_o meek_a man_n of_o the_o world_n may_v accuse_v his_o party_n before_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n and_o yet_o not_o be_v think_v inhuman_a or_o cruel_a 5._o thus_o all_o be_v beat_v down_o all_o that_o he_o build_v upon_o this_o ruinous_a foundation_n must_v needs_o fall_v to_o ground_n m._n s._n his_o three_o reason_n that_o which_o be_v a_o special_a gift_n of_o god_n and_o whereof_o no_o man_n be_v capable_a by_o his_o own_o industry_n the_o want_n of_o it_o be_v in_o itself_o a_o judgement_n of_o god_n and_o withal_o no_o way_n prejudicial_a or_o hurtful_a unto_o other_o shall_v not_o expose_v he_o to_o further_a punishment_n and_o misery_n but_o repentance_n to_o the_o acknowledgement_n of_o the_o truth_n be_v a_o special_a gift_n of_o god_n and_o the_o want_n thereof_o a_o judgement_n of_o god_n etc._n etc._n ergo._n a._n s._n 1._o i_o deny_v the_o first_o proposition_n for_o if_o he_o be_v bind_v to_o have_v it_o and_o have_v the_o faculty_n and_o sufficient_a mean_n to_o have_v have_v it_o and_o to_o keep_v it_o after_o that_o he_o have_v it_o or_o may_v have_v it_o and_o if_o by_o his_o own_o fault_n he_o want_v it_o he_o can_v excuse_v himself_o neither_o from_o the_o obligation_n to_o have_v nor_o from_o the_o punishment_n due_a to_o he_o for_o the_o want_n of_o it_o as_o our_o divine_n teach_v against_o the_o arminian_o 2._o i_o deny_v the_o assumption_n for_o it_o be_v prejudicial_a to_o other_o by_o the_o ill_a example_n he_o give_v and_o by_o the_o malice_n proceed_v from_o thence_o that_o induce_v other_o to_o the_o same_o sin_n to_o false_a doctrine_n schism_n and_o heresy_n 3._o this_o argument_n prove_v not_o m._n s._n his_o thesis_n viz._n that_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n shall_v not_o punish_v heretic_n and_o schismatic_n or_o that_o they_o shall_v be_v tolerate_v in_o the_o state_n and_o therefore_o 4._o we_o may_v grant_v he_o all_o the_o argument_n neither_o do_v the_o civil_a magistrate_n punish_v any_o man_n for_o want_n of_o repentance_n or_o for_o his_o ignorance_n which_o be_v in_o the_o mind_n and_o will_n and_o consequent_o unknown_a to_o he_o but_o for_o the_o pertinacious_a externall_n profession_n of_o they_o in_o so_o far_o forth_o as_o they_o trouble_v the_o peace_n of_o the_o church_n and_o the_o state_n neither_o refuse_v he_o to_o tolerate_v ignorance_n or_o want_v of_o repentance_n yea_o if_o there_o be_v nothing_o worse_o in_o they_o both_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n and_o the_o minister_n of_o christ_n must_v pity_v they_o and_o travel_v for_o their_o instruction_n and_o amendment_n this_o be_v far_o from_o prove_v either_o a_o toleration_n of_o the_o public_a exercise_n of_o heretical_a doctrine_n or_o of_o schism_n or_o that_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n have_v not_o power_n to_o punish_v they_o m._n s._n his_o four_o reason_n be_v put_v in_o form_n will_v be_v thus_o that_o which_o make_v man_n worse_o and_o hypocrite_n to_o profess_v outward_o what_o they_o believe_v not_o in_o their_o conscience_n be_v not_o lawful_a but_o externall_n compulsion_n of_o heretic_n schismatic_n etc._n etc._n in_o matter_n of_o religion_n make_v by_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n be_v such_o ergo_fw-la it_o be_v unlawful_a and_o consequent_o not_o to_o be_v tolerate_v a._n s._n i_o answer_v to_o the_o first_o proposition_n if_o it_o make_v man_n worse_o per_fw-la accidens_fw-la not_o of_o itself_o but_o in_o virtue_n of_o some_o accident_n annex_v to_o the_o person_n that_o become_v worse_a it_o be_v false_a if_o it_o do_v it_o per_fw-mi se_fw-mi by_o its_o own_o virtue_n and_o efficacy_n it_o be_v true_a but_o then_o the_o assumption_n be_v false_a for_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n in_o punish_v heretic_n and_o schismatic_n etc._n etc._n make_v they_o not_o worse_o per_fw-mi se_fw-mi for_o neither_o be_v it_o finis_fw-la operantis_fw-la or_o operationis_fw-la since_o neither_o he_o intend_v to_o make_v they_o worse_o but_o better_a nor_o tend_v his_o operation_n i._n e._n his_o judgement_n and_o command_n to_o make_v they_o at_o all_o ill_a much_o less_o to_o make_v they_o worse_o since_o the_o effect_n of_o it_o per_fw-la se_fw-la be_v only_o to_o imprison_v their_o body_n to_o fine_v they_o or_o if_o they_o merit_v it_o to_o exile_v they_o or_o take_v their_o life_n which_o produce_v no_o moral_a ill_n but_o a_o great_a good_a viz._n a_o hindrance_n of_o they_o to_o vent_v abroad_o their_o heresy_n and_o schism_n so_o it_o make_v they_o not_o hypocrite_n per_fw-mi se_fw-mi but_o only_o they_o per_fw-mi se_fw-mi make_v themselves_o hypocrite_n they_o be_v bind_v to_o suffer_v themselves_o to_o be_v teach_v the_o truth_n so_o to_o believe_v it_o and_o so_o they_o shall_v not_o be_v hypocrite_n m._n s._n repli_v that_o he_o stand_v already_o engage_v in_o a_o great_a band_n hereunto_o viz._n his_o peace_n with_o god_n and_o the_o safety_n of_o his_o soul_n then_o suffer_v temporal_o from_o the_o civil_a power_n a._n s._n your_o erroneous_a conscience_n can_v breed_v no_o true_a and_o real_a obligation_n or_o engagement_n against_o god_n 1._o for_o you_o be_v bind_v and_o oblige_v to_o god_n to_o cast_v away_o your_o ignorance_n and_o ill_a conscience_n 2._o what_o if_o your_o erroneous_a conscience_n dictate_v you_o that_o you_o must_v kill_v the_o king_n as_o that_o of_o ravalliack_n do_v to_o he_o in_o france_n to_o kill_v henry_n the_o four_o and_o that_o of_o the_o jesuit_n and_o priest_n in_o england_n do_v they_o to_o blow_v up_o the_o parliament_n and_o many_o papist_n of_o their_o own_o religion_n must_v you_o i_o pray_v obey_v the_o dictate_v of_o such_o a_o conscience_n 3._o away_o with_o such_o wicked_a conscience_n and_o to_o the_o law_n and_o prophet_n if_o you_o be_v a_o protestant_n 4._o either_o that_o band_n be_v lay_v upon_o you_o by_o god_n or_o the_o devil_n but_o it_o can_v be_v lay_v upon_o you_o by_o god_n for_o he_o can_v lay_v a_o band_n upon_o you_o to_o serve_v the_o devil_n or_o to_o despite_n himself_o for_o so_o he_o shall_v be_v the_o author_n of_o sin_n nor_o by_o the_o devil_n for_o then_o the_o band_n lay_v upon_o you_o to_o serve_v he_o shall_v be_v great_a than_o that_o which_o god_n have_v lay_v upon_o you_o in_o his_o word_n to_o serve_v he_o it_o may_v be_v say_v that_o so_o long_o as_o my_o erroneous_a conscience_n last_v i_o must_v obey_v it_o a._n s._n i_o answer_v you_o must_v obey_v it_o as_o he_o who_o be_v captive_a under_o sin_n must_v obey_v sin_n be_v a_o slave_n unto_o sin_n that_o have_v voluntary_o render_v he_o such_o but_o he_o unjust_o render_v himself_o a_o slave_n to_o sin_n and_o unjust_o in_o virtue_n thereof_o remain_v a_o sinner_n and_o obey_v it_o some_o will_v answer_v 7._o