should by a Congregation signifye either Vniversall or Provinciall or Diocesan Church is a most false vnlikely conceit Can any of these bee one Visible Congregation in the singular nomber He alleageth as hee thinketh textes for his pupose Matt. 16. Ephe. 1. and 5. Which surely may well yea they are to bee vnderstood of a Visible Congregation viz. indefinitly taken See heereof the Divine beginning and institution of Christes Visible Church Argum. 26. 23. Of Mai. Beza “ Def. 4.166 hee affirmeth that hee wished with all his heart for the Diocesan Bishops governemēt in Geneva Which is as true as that which the Iesuits blazed abroad how Beza before his death recanted his religion Beza lived to cōvince the Iesuits of vntruth to their faces If hee were now alive he would do the like to this Doct. and those other of whō he saith hee heard it The like audacitie is in that his report that the most learned iudicious Divines in France and Geneva could bee content that Diocesan Bb. governement were renewed among them The most learned in France and Geneva Verily as they were who renewed it Scotland of late Most learned and most iudicious were they Laus proprio sordescit in ore And I feare rather that knowen parable to be heerein verifyed When the trees would have a King the Olive Figtree and Vine refusing the Bramble tooke it on him and said to the trees †Iudg. 9.15 Come put your trust vnder my shadow When all shiftes faile the adversaries will calumniate vs as not dutifull to the King and Civil governement Which though D. Downame saith “ Def. 1.45 hee will not dispute yet he maliciously insinuateth As touching dutifull affection to the Kings person none can say more if he list then D. Downame him selfe in my particular Yea what wordes I spake whē he held his peace to a Noble Lord of Scotl. An. 1601. when neither of vs durst be seene nor heard abroad for feare of whom Verily of those who were his best friends since If I was thē so dutifully animated toward the K. when we only hoped for his Maiestie God forbid I should bee lesse now when we have him Being so maligned traduced as I am I could not but speake of this Touching our duty generally to his Maiesties authoritie and place the evidence of reason sense plead for vs. Tertull. ad Scapul We acknowledge with Tertullian that he is Solo Deo minor Lesse then God only In Church governement we impeach not his Soveraigtie neither in matter nor manner Therefore no way at all The matter is only about Ezcommunication and Making of Ministers and such like things Of the essentiall forme whereof Christ only is institutor his Ecclesiasticall servantes bee the Ministers The King is neither Author nor Minister Vnto this I suppose all agree For the maner Seeing we holde each whole Church in the greatest extent can be no mo ordinarie Congregations then one how can these either by their comming togeather or by their consenting in any Spirituall busines only for them selves I say how can these impeach the Kings power one haire His Supreme Vniversall overseeing and ordering them and all others yea his chastising them when they do any thing amisse how can it be let how can it be hindered by such a handfull And because hee must vse Substitute Rulers in his general overseeing the Churches of his Dominions we frō our hearts do honor them also and submit to them as to Gods Lieutenants in their severall places Only we testifie that if the Kings power be committed to any Ecclesiasticall person especially Civill coactive power it draweth with it both a breach of Christes ordinance who said to such Ministers “ Luc. 22.25 Math. 20.25 2. Chro. 19.11 You shall not be so and also a torture to Christian subiects cōsciences Wherefore we desire of God that the King would be pleased to appoint as Ichosaphat did a Zebadiah to bee generall Governor vnder him in Church causes so far as it pertaineth to the King to deale in them and as King Henry 8. a L. Cromwell his Vicegerent in rebus Ecclesiasticis and as his Maiestie him selfe did as I have heard in Scotland before hee came among vs. Which may be far more easily performed with inferior subordinate Officers vnder them also for this purpose in every place in a Monarchie then in any Popular or Aristocraticall Cōmon wealth Vnitie how And verily this is it and not a Diocesan Bishop which would bring great vnitie and that according to God If D. Downame wil vrge which he grateth vpon in this said †Def. 1.45 pag. 45. that the Churches indepēdent authoritie standeth not with the Kings Supremacie in causes Ecclesiasticall and that which els where wee say viz. nothing may be obtruded on the Church against their willes I answer indeed every Churches power is independent spiritually and immediat vnder Christ our meaning therefore is that by ptetended Spirituall authoritie Chap. 9. nothing may be obtruded imposed on any true Church against their willes But we grant that Civill Magistrates may and sometime ought to impose good things on a true Church against their willes if they stifly erre as somtime they may And me thinks Doct. Downame also should bee of this minde with vs. This is thus answered often before pag. 115. c. Hitherto our answer to some of our Adversaries chiefest obiections and evill wordes And so I draw to an end CHAP. IX A short advertisement to the vpright hearted and Christian Reader touching this Writing Cause YET first I desire the Christian Reader to be advertised of a few things pertayning to this Cause Seavē things I intreat him to take notice of First how great a blame and shame it is to D. Downame a principall Logician to treate so largely as in his Sermon defenc he hath done concerning the Nature Forme and Constitution of Christs true Visible Church and yet in all this not once to define the same Which defect of D. Bilson also is to be noted in his perpetuall governement of the Church Surely this one matter viz. a Definition of Christes true Visible Church vnder the Gospell well performed would have saved a great deale of paines and trouble would have prevēted much error And thus it is wiselie taught by Cicero that “ Cicer. Offic. 1. all purposes reasonable ought to be begū with a Definitiō of the matter in band For the avoyding therefore of this imputation I have in †The Divine beginning institution of Christs Visible Church another Treatise defined the said Visible Church of Christ Which I did and rested not on some others who have Defined the Church heertofor because I desired to distinguish cleerly betweene the Iewish Church and the Christian which verily differ not in Accidentes alone but in kinde of governement and in essentiall constitution The Iewish Christian Church
14. That the people most of all have power to chose worthy Ministers and to refuse their vnworthy ones After which he sheweth that the other churches els-where professing the Gospell refusing Poperie did likewise They who had a calling from the church of Râ—me renounced it resting on that which they have according to the rule of the Gospell 14. Iunius Also Iunius saith †Ecclesiastie 3.1 Simplicissimam quidem probatissimamque Eligendi Vocandi viam illam esse constat ex Scripturae Sacrae testimonijs quam Apostoli in Ecclesijs tenuerunt olim prisca Ecclesia aliquamdiu eos imitata observavit Eligebat tota Ecclesia id est corpus ex Presbyterio populo seu plebe constitutum equis communihus suffragijs Haec iusta electionis ratio It is manifest that that way of chosing and calling Ministers is most simple and most approoved by the testimonies of holy Scripture which the Apostles in old time did keepe in the Churches and the ancient Church sometime imitating them did observe The whole Church did chose that is the Body consisting of the Eldership and people or common sort by equal common voyces This is the iust manner of Chosing Ministers Afterward hee saith This the old Church did observe very long doneo res coeperunt vt fit humanitus in peius ruere atque retrò sublapsa referri Vntill as through mens corruption it comes to passs things began to grow worse and to runne to ruine And after that corruptioÌ„ in the Church government was come in Yet saith he id semper obtinuit vt Ecclesia actioni toti interesset camque prasentiâ suâ haberet raetam That alwayes was in force that the Church was present at the whole action and ratifyed it with their presence But neither this in England is seene anie where neither will bee allowed Also Iunius saith Where the Church at any time doth no more but ratifie matters by their presence only the Guidâ—t ought to certifie the Church that if they can them selves take care for do their owne affaires non fore penâ—â—â—â—lâ—um Episcoporum Seniorumve coetum vt 〈◊〉 siâ—i cum damno Ecclesia iniuriae ignominâ arroget It shall not be in the power of any asâ—eÌ„bly of Bishops or Elders to arrogat so much to them selves with the Churches dammage iniurie and shame Where hee professeth that this is the Church â—s daÌ„mage iniurie shame if being vnderstaÌ„ding Christians they be only present at the chosing and ordayning of their Ministers if they do not also them selves chose or at least freely expresly coÌ„sent to the chosing and ordayning of them After noting the tyrannie which was in this behalfe vnder the Pope he saith Iam de populo queÌ„ Christus redemit suo sanguine Ecclesiam sibi ex eo compararet verbum nullum Now of the people there was not one word whom Christ redeemed with his bloud that they might be his Church And he addeth Hinc illa barbaries hinc colluvies selelerum omnium hinc illa fraudum nundinationuÌ„ sentina exundavit Hence came that barbarous ignorance in those times that heape of all sinnes that sinke of deceit and selling of the soules of men TheÌ„ speaking of some Churches Magistrates who have worthily freed themselves from the Pope yet hee leaveth this foule blot vpon them Ius illud Eccesiasticum institutionis ordimationis restitut non curant Ecclesijs They care not to restore to the Churches this right of theirs viz of making ordaining of Minister Finally he answeceth some obiections At nescit populus dixerit quispiam Doceatur sciet At nescit vti Imo nesciet vnquam Siture suo non vtatur vnquam At factiosus est plerumque in diversas partes studiaque scinditur Revocetur adpaceÌ„ monitis salutaribus compescatur authoritate verbt virorumque bonorum officijs vt conciliatis compositis animis faciant quod sui turis est But some will say The people is ignorant of their duty and right heerein Let them be taught and they wil vnderstand it But they know not how to vse this their right They will not know it ever if they vse it never But they are factious often and are divided into partes Let them be reduced to Peace by wholesome counsaill and let them be ruled by the authority of the word and the indeavours of good men that their mindes being ordered they may do that which is their right to do 15. Piscator About ExcoÌ„municatioÌ„ Piscator saith “ Observ ex â— cap. 1. Cor. Excommunication ought to bee don by the Church or by the Presbyterie iudging in the name of the Church Where all meÌ„ may see his meaning to bee this viz. that the Presbyterie may excoÌ„municat howbeit alwayes with the Churches free consent For so he signifieth by these wordes iudging in the name of the Church It can not be that hee should meane that they may Excommunicate by their owne power and right onely or whether the Church will or no. After the same maner also I doubt not som others do speake concerning the making king of Ministers Whose sense and meaning is to be taken altogeather to that purpose likewise In the Churches â—amâ— that is Executing the Churches â—uthoritie and power and doing that which they do with their free conâ—ent and approbation 16. Chemniciâ—â— Chemnicius a man most famous of â—are learning among the followers of Luther in the matter of the reall presence yet in our cause hee saith thus “ Exam. part pag. 226. 227. 228. Non sine consensu Ecclesiae Paulus Barâ—abas invitis obtruserunt Presbyteros Paul and Barnabas did not thrust Ministers on the Church being vnwilling or without their â—onsent And Exempla Aposiolica bistoria â—â—are oftendunt c. The examples of the Apostles storie do cleerely shew that Election or Vocation did belong to the whole church And Haec est Apostolicae primitiva veteâ—â— Eccesia sententia de legitima Electione Vocatione Ministrorum c. This is the iudgement and way of the Apostolike primitive and ancient Church concerning the lawful Election and Calling of Ministers which iudgement and way hath place in those Churches which are coÌ„stituted according to Gods word And he addeth In our Churches it is so meaning in those that follow Luther 17. Whitakeâ— Neither can I forget that among â—ur owne Country-men D. Whitaker â—eacheth thus “ De Coneâ—â— pag. 44. Quod omnes attingit ab â—â—â—â—bus approbari debet That which toucheth all Chap. 4. ought to be approved of all Meaning that nothing should bee obtruded vpon any people in Ecclesiasticall and Spirituall regiment no not by Synods except the people consent to it And this consent of the people hitherto avouched verily many other worthy Divines both among vs abroad do maintaine likewise But I forbeare to nominate any mo Knowing that to whom any thing will be enough
Spirituall or sole government Ecclesiasticall yea though over but one Congregation Much more him who exerciseth such spirituall Lordship over a great many CoÌ„gregations Also What is Sole authoritie Spirituall in our sense sole authoritie Spirituall and sole governement Ecclesiasticall we call that which is exercised without the Christian peoples free consent D. Downame laboureth with divers vaine shifts to defend the English L. Bishops herein He can not abide that it should bee saide of them that they exercise “ Def. 1.58.47.43 sole authoritie or sole government Yea in many places hee * Def 3 118.11â—.126.142 sheweth indignation that such wronge should be done them in beeing so reported of But it is strange Are they ashamed to heare of that which they cease not to practise and maintaine every day and that in the sight of the world yea each of them over divers hundreds of Congregations For the people with vs no where enioy any free consent But the D. saith “ Def. 1.43.44 The Bishop hath the Archbishop above him Yea but who is above our 2. Archbishops spiritually No body Againe he saith Provinciall Synods are above the Bishop Idly spoken Is the Diocesan Synod above their owne Bishop Or is the Provinciall Synod above their Archbishop Surely no more then the Vniversall Councill is above the Pope Which is cleane contrarie Now this is it which hee should have affirmed buthe durst not He shifteth further saying “ Pag. 44. Do we not all with one consent acknowledge the Kings Maiestie to have the Supreme authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall Yea verily wee do But that is Civilly as “ Reas. for ref p. 62. â—â— els-where I have shewed Hee hath no authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall Spiritually that is his authoritie properly maketh no Church Minister nor Excommunicateth any person Which I suppose your selves do hold even as we do But this is the point in England the Archb. is Spiritually Supreme or hath Supreme authority spiritual in his Province I say thus he is Supreme sole viz. spiritually Wherfore the Doct. Ignorantia Elenchi grosly sophisticateth in shifting from the poâ—â—t in hand to an other matter Where hee speaketh of “ Def. 1. p. 43 Chancellors adioyned to the Bishops and of Presbyters consent with him that †Pag. 42. Presbyters have power to rule their flocke in publike Ministerie and in privat attendance that some of them have voyces in Synods c. I wot not what all this is Sure I am it is as idle as the rest For so much at least is seene in the Popish Church where yet is founde spirituall Lordship sole governement in their Bishops yea oppression violence tyrannie also over the peoples consciences as we well know So that the “ Pag. 43. Supreme and lowdest by and †Pag. 47. the plainely which hee giveth to vs hee ought to take to him selfe Another shift of the Doct. is where because the Hebrew Adoni the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Latin Dominus may be given to Bishops therefore “ Def. 3.147 he would conclude that in English they may be called Lords D. Bilson reasoneth †Perp gov pag. 58. 59. so likewise and that very largely He would prove the same also from the Duch terme Here from the French Monsieur c. But I deny this reason absolutly For heerein there is no consequence Our English terme Lord and Lordship doth alwayes imply Sole government but none of those forraigne termes doth so alwayes Wherefore such reasoning is Equivocating also * Ioh. 13.13 1. Cor. 8.6 12.5 2. Cor. 1.24 Againe Christ only is our Lord in respect of Spirituall Lordship he only is to bee called a Spirituall Lord. But our Bishops are Lords and are so called with vs in respect as they bee Spirituall Lordes as the Doctor “ Def. 3.150 observeth well Wherefore our Bishops Lordship is vnlawfull and derogatorie to Christ Doct. Bilson saith further †Perp. gov pag. 62. If we sticke at titles Christ calleth them Gods Lo how nothing satisfyeth these men Would he have Bishops called by the name of Gods also But I would know of him where doth Christ call them Gods Surely it is but his fancie They are in deed so called no where D. Downame presseth that Bishops are called “ Def. 3.146.150 Angells which is a more honor able title then Lord. And therefore that Bishops may bee called Lords I deny that the name Angell is so honorable a title as a Spirituall Lord which is given to our Bishops This is proper to Christ only as before is said the name Angell is not And so his reason is false Againe though the name Angell be given to Bishops sometime and in one respect yet it is very false to say they may lawfully be stiled and called by the dayly appellation of Angells or that they may ordinarilie vse that title as they do the title name of Lord. Againe the name of Lord is given them as importing their sole governement as before is said But the name Angell importeth not so much neither is it given to any Creature in such respect Therfore from the name of Angell the title of Lorde followeth not Indeed the name of Angell is given to Bishops because they are Gods messengers to shew vs his will not in respect of their governement at all though the Doct. presumeth so to say without “ An Allegorie is no proofe proofe Lastly hee knoweth that all Preachers are in the word called Angells or Messengers but for all Preachers to be called in English Lords or your Lordship surely it would be a very arrogant thing And though hee “ Def. 1.34.46 alleage that the Angel of the church of Ephesus in Rev. 2.1 be one and but one before many Ministers yet neither doth this importe any Lordship in him either in name or practise neither is this precedence or praeeminence signifyed by the word Angel but it is gathered by coÌ„paring this word with the knowen circumstances of those times Further he alleageth that “ Def. 3.152 Princes are called Pastors and for the same cause are Lords Wherein there is no truth nor indeed any good sense The like is that where hee addeth the title of Father is as great as Lord. Nay the name of Father is amiable but Lords may and also they vse to force and compell Neither did the Pope at first take the name of Father peculiarly to him selfe to note thereby any Lordship as his due but to deceave the world by his pretended love over all wherein he desired to seeme a commoÌ„ Father In another * Def. 4.71.72 place he teacheth that Bishops in the New Testament were called Apostles VpoÌ„ which grouÌ„d he “ Def. 3 15â— would conclude that therefore the name of Lord is lawfull for them I answer The name of Apostle and also of Bishop may be vsed sometime
never ben possible For it had ben to smal purpose if they had oppugned those their other errors only withal had iustifyed the forme of the Roman Church and the calling of their Ministerie which our Forefathers must have done if our said Assertion had not ben true And so they must have taryed still ordinarie members vnder the governement of the same Church Againe to small purpose had they oppugned those other errors if they had left to obloquie their owne Ministerie Which likewise they must have done if our said Assertion were not true For as in warfare good weapons and much strength without iustifyable authoritie A Similitude will in short time bring ruine and confusion to them that vse the same Even so it is in this cause yea much more heere it is true Though wee seeme to cut down Popish errors with the sword of Gods word yet if wee do not cleere our Ministerie and iustifye our Calling give good satisfaction to mens Consciences for the lawfulnes of our handling the Word and Sacraments and Spirituall governement wee shall quickly labour in vaine And that appeareth certainly to much at this day in England the greater is our woe Not only in respect of Popery but in other respects also Well will our adversaries say The Protestantes Ministerie is iustifyed sufficiently against the Papistes albeit the people have no consent in their Ministers Calling Oh would God our learned men in Englande would shew this substantially Then would I for my part quickly conforme as before also I protested But otherwise let them bee assured the Church of Rome do what they can will get ground of them in England And this maketh mee to lay this to heart as I do Every day we are chalenged by the “ D. KellisoÌ„ Treatise of faith A. D. Iohn Fraser c. Papistes to proove the lawfulnes of our Ministerie in England and of our Calling to it What say our learned men heerevnto A direct and a full and a stedfast answer must be made to this Mens consciences will not be satisfyed with dilatorie and shifting answeres Nor if wee leave Scruples Difficulties in that we speake To iustify the Calling of our Ministerie in England and to prove the lawfulnes thereof The true iustification of the Protestants Ministerie wee must plainly shew that the persons who give this Calling with vs have good authoritie in deed to give the same This is the very point Let our learned men make this cleere and then the Papistes are stopped then all men are satisfyed For it is a plaine case and graunted of all that every true Ministerie in the Church must be receaved from some persons who have good and iust authoritie to give it And this is essentiall to every true Ministerie Some there are in Englande who affirme the Ministers authoritie is only an Inward Calling and gifts of the minde And so hath no absolut necessitie to be Outwardly receaved from any other Which in deed is not fit for any wise man or honest Christian to holde It is the worst answer of a thousand and in a word meerely Anabaptisticall Some others there are who say that this authoritie of the Ministerie and of exercising Excommunication also is derived originally from the Magistrate even from the King and Parliament with vs. And so they expound that ordinance of our Saviour “ Mat. 18.17 Tell the Church to be Tell the civil Magistrate Verily they may also as well expound these wordes †Mat. 86.18 Vpon this Rocke I will build my Church to signifie Vpon the Civill Magistrate vpon the Prince Christ buildeth his church For thus they make Christes Visible Church vnder the Gospell only a Civill Societie and a Humane politie Which profane opinion is so vnworthy of all true Christian people that it deserveth to bee exploded no lesse then the other These answers against the Papistes wee may thinke will do but litle good For as it is absolutly necessary that a true Minister of the Gospell have his calling given him outwardly from some persons and that these persons have good and iust authoritie to give it So likewise it is absolutly necessarie that every true Minister of the Gospell have his calling given him by those who are by Christ him selfe or his holy Spirit in the Apostles authorised to give it For thus only can an Ordinarie Ministers Calling be of God which is “ Ioh. 3.27 Heb. 5.4 Mat. 21.25 1. Cor 12.5 Rom. 10.15 necessarie and not of men And this is that which we call Essentiall in every Ordinarie Ecclesiasticall Minister Who are the persons that have power from Christ to make Ministers Againe as I said this will soundly answere the Papistes and nothing els But now all the matter will be who are the persons which have power authoritie from Christ to give a Calling to a Minister of the Gospell Heere as touching my selfe when I deale with Papistes as often I have don I affirme as D. Tilenus in this case answered the L. Lavall in France which “ Pag. 43. before I remembred viz. that the people consenting togeather in the truth of the Gospell have froÌ„ Christ power and authoritie first to forsake all Sacrilegious Priestes and their ministerie and then to give a true and lawfull calling of Ministerie to some whom them selves do like Wherein Tilenus shewed Cyprians iudgement also agreeing with his Cyprian there affirming likewise that this power of the people is from Divine authoritie as “ Pag. 56. 57. before also is shewed And other very plaine proofes heereof Act. 1.23.26 and 6.3.5.6 and 14.23 I have †Reas. for reform pag. 45. 46. 47. c. Divine beginning of Christs Visib Church Argum. 9. A DefinitioÌ„ generall twice set downe at large out of the New Testament Beside all which there is very pregnant reason also for the same For Christian people whether few or many ioyned togeather in a constant societie of one ordinarie Congregation to serve God according to his word are a true Visible Church of Christ Every true Visible Church of Christ is his Kingdome vpon earth his deare Spouse his owne Body c. Now it ought not to bee doubted but Christ hath given power to his Kingdome to his Spouse to his Body to governe it selfe to preserve it selfe to provide for it selfe when it wanteth all things ordayned for it in the best maner it can This may not bee doubted Therefore such a Societie vnder the Gospell wanting Ministers must have power to ordaine Ministers for her selfe Likewise the Apostle saieth All thinges are theirs and they Christes and Christ Gods Then 1. Cor. 3 2â—.23 wheÌ„ they want Ministers they cannot want power to provide them to them selves Seeing God hath made them theirs Further the Apostle requireth the christiaÌ„ people to try the Spirits of their Teachers whether they be of God or no. 1. Ioh. 4.1 And Christ saith His sheepe heare his voice a
are not perpetuall Evangelistes are not perpetuall also Bishops yea Presbyters are not perpetuall in Churches vnder the Gospell But a Congregation is perpetuall absolutly “ Math. 16. â—â— the gates of destruction shall never overcome it Wherefore this power is essentially in the Congregation And so the consequence is false “ Pag. 77. These directions are perpetuall therfore peculiar to Bishops I say this sequele can not bee true Wherewith is conioyned an other false reason viz. They were not common either to other Christians or other Ministers therfore peculiar to Bishops Nay they were common They may bee and are exercised by divers formes of administrations as before I shewed not all waies by Bishops And yet I grant thy are to bee exercised most commonly vsually and ordinarily by Bishops I meane true Bishops His owne distinction heere is good There is †Pa. 102. 147 potestas and forma vel modus potestatis The power the accidentall forme and maner of the power It is true the power is perpetuall the accidentall forme or maner thereof is variable In which respect the consequence also of his newe “ Pa. 77. Proposition which †Pag. 78. once againe he taketh for granted once againe I deny The proofe of his Assumption we grant yet with a distinction In the Epistles to Tim. and Tit. the office of Bishops is described generally but not as peculiar to Bishops materially not formally And only so that power was to continue in the Church till the end Also this viz. materially that power was not a higher power then Episcopall But formally it was And so his consequence is false For an Evangelists power was higher yea the Churches power by whom simply sometime both the making of Ministers and Censures are performed is “ 1. Cor. 3.22 higher then the Bishops power Againe hee saith this power of Bishops is so much of the Apostolical power as was to coÌ„tinue to the end But then hee should not make the Bishops power more then the Apostolicall as †See before pag. 240. 248 hee doth Which thus also appeareth viz. the Apostles excluded not the peoples consent but his Bishops doe Howe then saith hee it is Apostolicall Besides in all this hee Equivocateth for this power of Bishops is the Apostles as I said generally not properly materially not formally Hee would finde “ Pag. 79. a difference in his Refuter but it is easily reconciled viz. vnderstanding him of divers kindes of Bishops thus Some kinde of Bishops are in Christs Testament some absolutly have noe place there The former have power from Christ the later have none After hee maketh great outcries of †Pag. 80. 81. Schismatical novelties dreames dotages fantasticall fanaticall spirits and phrensie Right as the Papists cry out Haeretiks Haeretiks TheÌ„selves being the greatest Haeretiks of all But the ChritstiaÌ„ reader may know that this is the Doctors fury malice against our Attestators before cited and against others also who follow them Yea against “ See before pag. 73. 74. c. himselfe it is some of his frindes His slaÌ„der that we maintain such popular government as Morellius strived for is sufficieÌ„tly answered †Pag. 24. before Some of the Separation I grant are to offensive this way which I am heartily sory for They take the wordes in Math. 18.17 Tell the Church more popularly theÌ„ ther is need or then reason or good order would Howbeit in this yet they hold the substaÌ„ce of the true Church-goverm They erre but in the CircumstaÌ„ce of order though it be to “ Bera Anâ—â— cat in Math. 18.17 foule That is they will examine al scandalls c. whatsoever in the presence vnder the iudgment of the whole multitude perpetually necessarily I say perpetually necessarily Wherein I wonder they see not the many very ill Consequents which wil must insue many times As touching vs what we hold heerin I have shewed †Pag. 22. 24. 82. 83. before And our Docts doe most iniuriously “ Def. 4.81 Perp. gov pag. 355. wrong Beza the Geneva discipline if that be Geneva discipline which Viret Calvin Beza taught theÌ„ in saying they differ materially froÌ„ vs. Our D. asketh Is there any shew in Scripture or in reasoÌ„ that the sheep should rule their sheapheard or the flocke their Pastor The very voice of a Iesuit not of a Minister of the Gospel Bellarm. argueth iust so “ Bellarm. de Clersc 1. 7. against the old ProcestaÌ„ts As to the point let him know that reasonable sheep vnder the Gosp have more to do in their spiritual governmeÌ„t theÌ„ brute beastes have to doe in their governement sensuall Lastly heere hee can easily skoffe and revile the modest Christian offer of disputatioÌ„ those that favour it some of vs hee will helpe to persecute but vndertake that Offer honestly plainly he never will Hee saith †Pag. 82. wee vnderstand the speech of “ 1. Tim. 5.22 Laying on of hands as directed not to Timothie but to the people to Titus †Tit. 3.10 Avoid an haeretik or excommunicat him that is thou people Which is falfe we vnderstand it not so He doth therfore heerin slaÌ„der vs. We know these words are directed to Timothie Titus yet to them not as Lords over the people nor as Sole rulers but as Guides and directors of them As Fathers to informe them not as Maisters to overrule them and force them To them therefore by name as the principall Agents in all ordinary government the Epistles and these precepts were written And so the Apostle heere held it not needfull to mention the people though neither doth he exclude them Seeing their consent in such affaires is “ See before pag. 76. Also toward the end of this chap. elswhere in Scripture sufficiently proved And the Apostles practise in this behalfe they knew well enough Which knowen practise of the Apostles it heere behoved Timothie Titus to have regard vnto togeather with these precepts written to them For they stand togeather well enough He saith the Churches at first were governed by the Apostles c. I answere they were But not without the peoples concurrence and consent as presently before is observed But D. Downame avouched †Def. 4 8â— Our Bishops at this day have not greater authoâ—â—tie in menaging Church causes then Timothie and Titus had Which is notoriously vntrue These following the Apostles tooke the peoples consent with them our Bishops do not They only taught them perswaded them vsed spirituall power ours if they can not perswade the people or their Pastors will cast them in prison punishing their bodyes their purses He saith Timothie Titus might vse the presense or consent of the people or the counsell and advise of the Presbyters in 〈◊〉 of greatest moment as Princâ—s doe in Common-wealths I thought it was a stately
litle after If you would be further taught that a generall Councill is neither the Vniversall Church nor representeth the Vniversall Church c we can send you to a merchant of the same stampe that your selves are of where you shall see as much as I say debated commended with no small braverie Pigh hierarch lib 6. cap 5. 4. I graunt this man in an other place is “ Perp. gov pag. 370. 371. 372. contrarie to this But that is no newes in him For I know nothing almost which is controverted but if hee affirme it in one place he denyeth it in another As touching the Scriptures which he produceth for his warrant they are the same which D. Downame also “ Def. 2.4 meÌ„tioneth are often alleadged by many men at random For God knoweth they come nothing neare to the purpose The textes are Math. 18.17 Act. 15.22 Both which indeed are to be taken properly and literally and not improperly and figuratively as they in an idle imagination do think Their imagination I say heerein is idle because they have no reason for them in the world requiring that this word Ecclesia heere should be figurative Which is ground “ D. Down Def. â— 33 enough for vs and assurance also that it ought heere to be vnderstood as proper Besides those two Doctors are both learned in the Greeke toung Let them shew that this word was ever vsed by any good Author living in the Apostles times or before for a Confistorie of Governors only or els they ought to acknowledge they speake idly and vntruly If no such place can be shewed as I am very sure there can not shal we thinke the Apostles spake and wrote Greeke in such a phrase as none in all the world ever spake either before or in their dayes What absurditie and vnconscionable presumptioÌ„ were it so to thinke I know they and others do alleage som Greek Fathers that do take the word Ecclesia sometime for the Governours only But those Fathers lived 300. yeres after the time of writing the New Testament and later Now the Aposties framed not their laÌ„guage to the maner of speaking so longe after their owne age Many and great alterations were come in by that time by reason whereof their speach began much to alter also And we following them must needes Equivocat Some pointes therein I noted “ Reaâ— for â—ef pag. 4â— 64. â—5 herefore but our adversaties will not remember nor consider that The effect of al that I say is this Eusâ—bius beodoret Epiphanius Chrysostome and such other of those times are not our Apostles nor maisters of our faith nor equall interpreters of the true Apostles chiefâ—y in the matter of Church governement There was to much iniquitie to much anomie entered then and increased still afterward till Antichrist him selfe stood vp which was anon after â—n such case therfore let vs retire our selves as we are commaunded to the plaine and vnpartiall and syncere evidence of Christs Law and Testimonie if any speake not according this word it is because there is no light in them Sure the vniversad sense and meaning of this Greeke word Ecclesia in all pure and vncorrupt times is to signifie the whole Assemblie even the people evermore togeather wâ—th their Guides vnles their state were such that they had no Guides as at some instant happily the case might be But alwayes it signifyed the people and those asseÌ„bling together in one place Which also is the proper signification of the Latin word Concio and nothing els Concio is the iust expositioÌ„ of Ecclesia It were madnes therefore to go from the native proper sense of the Apostles wordes without cause And if the Humane Politike reasons where with Doct. Bilson “ Perp. gov pa. 370. 372. 374. 376. flourisheth were warrant for vs without Christs worde to erect such a spirituall governement as is in absolut Synods over Christendome besides that then Mens Traditions and politike inâ—entions may be receaved as spiritual instruments in the worke of the salvation of our soules which impietie I thought all good Christians had long since abhorred moreover a plaine direct way is opened for a Vniversall Papacie and for a Vniversall consistorie of Cardinalls to be placed over all Christes people I say the Humane reasons alleadged do inforce this as well yea much better then that each Christian Nation should be ordinarily left to them selves and not bee ruled Spiritually by some one generall ordinarie Superior by whom all in al Countries may be reduced to vnitie This might easily bee adorned with moe flowers of Rhetoâ—â—ke then hee there doth or can set vpon his matter Againe over besides this there is an other plaine Logical coÌ„sequence which will induce a Pope if any Representative Church bee acknowledged to be of Divine institution in the New Testament For if any Representative Church bee in the New Testament of Divine institution then such a Provinciall Representative Church is Nay then a Vniversal representative Church is of Divine institution in the New Testament ArepreseÌ„tâ—tâ—ve Church By a representative Church I meane the Guides one or moe having power to exercise Spiritual governemÌ„et without any consent of the people Which also is a Church figuratively viz. by a Syneedoche And this all men agree vnto Againe if a Vniversall representative Church be of Divine institution in the new Testament then a Vniversall church represented or such a proper Church whereof the figurative is a figure and a representation is of Divine institution also in the New Testament This sequence is of “ Relativa fuut simul Arâ—stoâ— infallible truth Some have thought the figurative Vniversall Church viz. the Vniversall Synod may represent not one Vniversall proper Church but a nomber of particular independent Churches But this is vntrue impossible as any shall see that wel considereth it As for our present adversaries they do acknowledge maintaine the effect of this Sequence at least they say it in plaine termes D. Bilson teacheth that Christ hath “ Perp. gov pa. 372. 377 one Church in generall which is a whole having all particular Churches partes to be ruled by the whole and that this one whole or generall Church is the body of Christ. Doct. Downame expreslie saith †Def. 3.4 the whole Church is but one body Thus in plaine termes they acknowledge and teach as I said One proper Church Vniversall vnder outward governement What meaning they have heerein God knoweth Now from hence I reason further If one Vniversall proper Church subiect to out ward governement bee of Divine institution in the New Testament then a Vniversall ordinarie Pastor is of Divine institution in the New Testament This consequence though in truth it be vndenyable and inevitable yet they in wordes deny it with vehemence without sense reason D. Downame saith Defenc. 1.17 and 3.4.6 He is Antichrist that assumeth to him selfe the governement
the present Church-state in England even in the substantiall points of governement therein are cleane frustrat Neither is the same Apostolicall neither hath it Vniversall nor perpetuall nor indeed any old approbation among Christians as they colourably pretend But it is proved to bee novell A proper Diocesan church is novell and meerely of the wit and will of men and that after the time of Antichrists rising The contrary obiectons of our adversaries I will heere observe D. Doves 3. falsifications of Euseb as neere as I can First that which D. Downame borrowed of D. Dove viz. that Marke constituted a Diocesan Church in Alexandria But this I have shewed “ Pag. 90 91. before to bee a meere forgerie of these two D. D. grounded vpon a false translation of their author Eusebius And heere I can not but remember a second and a third like falsifying of Eusebius by D. Dove in his Defence The former of these is pag. 13. where he saith Eusebius wordes be these †Euseb lib 3.4 Timothie was the first Bishop of the whole Precinct of Ephesus in as ample maner as Titus of all the Churches of Crete Eusebius saith not that Timothie was but hee saith it is reported that Timothie was the first Bishop of Ephesus as Titus of the Churches of Crete Againe Eusebius saith not of the whole precinct of Ephesus nor in as ample maner There are no such words in Eusebius This is no translating but perverting an Author Thirly that which Eusebius hath indeed viz. Timothie was said to have ben Bishop of the Parish in Ephesus this he rendreth not but perverteth For in Ephesus is not without the City much lesse the whole precinct of Ephesus containing the large Country adioyning Yea that the Church in Ephesus was but a Parish then Ignatius sheweth writing to the whole Church of Ephesus saying to them “ Iâ—nat aâ— Ephes. When you come oft togeather into the same place c. Therfore the whole then did come togeather in one place And it is not only false but absurd to say that the like may be spoken now of the †Can they all come togeather in one place Diocesan Church of London Thus therefore Eusebius is perverted twise by D. Dove His 3. falsifying of him is where Eusebius saith of Iohn the Apostle in a certain City “ Euseb lib. 3.23 Graec. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 having refreshed the Brethâ—en and looked on the Bishop that was set over al the said brethren of that place hee committed a yong man to him But the D. setteth it down thus Iohn the Apostle coÌ„mitted the charge of a yong man to a Bishop †Pag. 15. 18. qui super cunstâ—s Episcopos erat constitutuâ— which was set over all the rest of the Bishops thereabout As if then there had ben an Archbishop or a Bishop over Bishops So saith this Doctor as out of Eusebius But he abuseth his author Eusebius hath not such a word And yet D. Downame also “ Def. 4.112 alleageth the same place though he cunningly forbeareth to mention the words Doct. Downame further presseth Eusebius in that hee saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is reported that Titus was Bishop of the Churches of Crete As also Perpet govern pag. 233. He translateth it is recorded in Histories But he can not make that good in this place For the word signifyeth any relation or narration or report of a matter And Eusebius vseth alwayes to name his author at ful to set downe the words when hee groundeth vpon any written historie So hee citeth very often Egesippus Clemens Dionysius Tertullian c. Wherefore questionâ—es heere he meaneth some other report or tradition and speach of meÌ„ I know not whom And in setting downe such matters he is nothing curious many times as “ Pag. 91. 92. before I have signifyed Not seldom he reporteth fabulous things yea wheÌ„ he nameth his author Eusebius of no absolut credit as is wel knowen And yet he is all the warrant and ground which any writer hath either young or old for Tius his being Bishop of Crete Theodoret Epiphanius Chrysostomus Ierome c. Dorotheus Synops is not worth the naming have al their inducement so to thinke from hence All these also them selves were great Prelates or lovers of Prelates and therefore wee may holde them partiall in setting downe and receaving such reportes What wisedom then is in Do. Downame to say it is an vncharitable and vnlearned part yea intolerable impudencie to deny credit to such authorities It is rather intolerable impietie and plaine idolatrie to set vp these and such like for rules of our faith and warrants to our conscience as the D. laboureth to do in this cause Howbeit further Eusebius saith not that Titus was said to be Bishop of Crete but only so as Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus Where he seemeth to meane that both of theÌ„ were then thought to bee not proper Bishops but in the generall sense and vnderstanding of the word Bishop And so he seemeth to meane also that Marke was said to be Bish of AlexaÌ„dria whom yet he nameth an Apostle and Evangelist Iames an Apostle in deed Bishop of Ierusalem I say in a generall sense but not Bishops properly And so truly the other Fathers after Eusebius do seeme to meane and we accord thus with them Otherwise we must needes deny credit to them heerein viz. if Eusebius c. say these were proper Bishops For it is not possible that they could bee so seeing they were both Superior and also Divinely distinguished from proper Bishops as anon we shall see further where further occasion will be given vs to answer D. Downame about Timothie Titus Bishoprikes Againe “ Def. 2.23 and 116. D. Downame citeth out of Councill Carthage 3. and Ephes 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from the beginning and even from the Apostles as †Perpet gov pag. 324. Doct. Bilson before him avoucheth But both of theÌ„ wrest the Councilles For they say not so only they say that Dioceses should remaine such as they were from the beginning that is ever since Dioceses were appointed Not from the beginning simply but from the beginning of Dioceses which though it were loÌ„g before these Councills yet as I iudge it was not before “ About the yeare 260. See before pag. 92.93 Dionysius Bishop of Rome And touching the Apostles the Ephesin Council speaketh of the Apostles Canons Beeing strangely deceaved in attributing them to the Apostles as any one may perceave if hee see the Can. 4.5.8.17 18.27.47.49.65 68 84.25 Wherefore they are falslie fathered on the Apostles beeing but base and bastardly stuffe in respect of them And yet they intende no “ See before pag. 88. 97. 98. proper Diocesan Church viz. like ours in England Neither were these Canons before Constantines age So that our D. D. do argue from hence very vnworthily But D.