them worthy of hate for that hauing taught that a bishop priest is all one by Gods word they now teach that all that holde so be hereticks But he doth vs wrong for charging vs to say that a bishop priest is all one by Gods word the word Episcopus presbyter in scriptures is commonly vsed for one but we speake english call those that rule bishops and others priests which distinction we find plainly in scriptures and therefore holde the teachers of equality to be Aerians confounders of gouernment to be iustly condemned not only by Epiphanius but also by Augustine yea by the consent of all the fathers that distinguish priests into 2 sorts giuing the name of bishop to those that rule and priest to the second that are ruled And therefore most sencelesse is their reason that because they haue all one name will conclude of it aequalitie of all ministers For magistrates teachers subiectes haue all one name and yet are diuided into diuers degrees In vaine therfore doth the libeller bring proofes that the words presbyter episcopus are commonly taken for one for that notwithstāding there may be difference of degrees howsoeuer they wil answere this obiection yet is it apparant that the same ouerthroweth as I said their consistorial aldermen Away thē with the new church aldermen those heretikes that mainteine them for albeit Epiphanius erred in accompting them heretikes that prayed not for the dead yet is the same no reason to shew he erred in this which not only Augustine mainteineth but all the Fathers also not only they but the foure general counsels which this land approueth so that by the lawes of Englād they are heretiks that hold the equality of ministers what shameles dealing thē was this for the libeller to alledge the Syriake interpreter or Chrysostome or Ambrose or Theodoret whē no one speaketh for equality euery one defendeth degrees in the ministers of the word but the word cashisha saith he comprehēdeth both bishop priest what thē so doth a liuing creature comprise men beasts yet are not both equal in dignity neither doth it help him that the order of priesthood cōpriseth both bishops priests for it doth not take away the dignity of some aboue others what needed then so many names of Wicleffe Marsilius of Padua Luther Bullinger Iewel Melancthon others that speake as we do or Caluin his fellowes that speaketh against al antiquity or what needed this compagnion to muster so many names either of protestant churches seeing they were not of Caluins opiniō or of papists seing we do not follow Bellarmin Stapleton or papists but antiquity that speaketh as we doe Neither doth it follow Chrysost Hierom Augustin in 4. ad Ephes that the ecclesiasticall state is to be maliced for teaching that Pastor and Doctor are all one for so hath all antiquity taught and their interpretation by all antiquitie is confirmed Neither is it material what Caluin Beza Daneau Bertrand de loques Villiers and other say to the contrarie seing they talke contrary to antiquity reason and all practise Finally their owne practise and diuers reasons stand against Doctors which neither the libeller nor his mates make any haste to answere The exposition of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Math. 20.25 is most absurdly forced by these compagnions to make against superior degrees in the ministery for that the apostles notwitstanding Christs prohibition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 were superiour to other degrees of ministers And very absurd it were if Christ should suffer tyrants to oppresse the people and forbid lawfull authoritie to the ministers by which also would fall the authoritie of the consistorie and ministers liue without controlment And therefore as long as these fellowes interprete against all scripture antiquitie and reason yea and themselues too it skilleth not what they say against superiour degrees Against which Luther Zuinglius Melancthon Caluin Bullinger and the rest are most peruersely alledged They say and so likewise Iewell Sadeel Bridges Bilson Whitakers and others say that bishops as bishops may not take vpon them the rule of kingdomes nor rule with force like Princes But who is so simple as to cōclude hereof that one minister may not rule another as these fellowes doe But suppose some of our learned men should interpret 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 otherwise then Caluin hath done must all the clergie suffer for one mans not yeeelding to Caluins fancie Or because some denie that soueraigne princes may be excommunicate defending therein the soueraigntie of princes against the rebellious Papists and Puritans must therefore the Ecclesiasticall state bee dissolued nothing is more absurde for herein as the aduersaries deserue punishment so our men deserue speciall commendation in confuting the seditious doctrine of factious persons They also consent flatly with the Papists in denying the princes supremacy in making lawes iudging of ecclesiastical matters or appointing others to iudge them diuers other points neither can the libeller seuer their opinions from thē for first it is false that he saith that the Papists exempt their clergy in ciuill causes from the princes iurisdiction or that the consistorials do giue authoritie to the prince to deale with their consistories pastors in ecclesiasticall causes so long as they iudge they haue done well themselues for they take the dealing therein from the prince and giue power of deposition to their eldership And as the consistorials say that the prince may enforce their cōsistories making wicked decrees to make better which taking the iudgement of those matters from princes I see not how they can well do so the papists wil haue the prince not only to reforme ministers but the pope himselfe also Si Papa sit incorrigibilis Imperator potest procedere contra ipsum saith 1 Heruaeus de potest papae c. 13. Heruey papa potest accusaricoram Imperatore saith 2 Zabarel lib. de schism concil Zabarel The papists confesse that princes may make lawes with the aduise of the pope as these confesse he may with the aduise of the consistory They confesse that the prince may take order where the Pope is incorrigible as these say where their pastors are wicked and vngodly therfore the libeller doth nothing but fable where he would seuer the cōsistorials from papists but what should we looke for other at his hands seeing he is not ashamed to say that the consistorials wil subscribe to the apology of the church of England and the articles of religion authorised and published by parliament which deny the degrees of the ministery and oppugne them which are confirmed both by the apology and by articles of religion professed in this church Lastly they take exception against vs for that we teach that the best 1 All the ancient Fathers and of late writers Melancthon Luther and of others the best writers are against the eldership as if it were not proued by
of the belfray take a rope for his paynes Hee belyeth Doctor Bridges shamefully for hee maketh him to say that a Priest may haue a moderate lordly iurisdiction ouer all the Lordes allotment where in trueth hee doeth not so much as mention Lordly iurisdiction but superioritie and that ouer the Cleargie in seuerall Congregations and not in the whole Church Therefore let him make proofe how this superioritie or maintayning of Churchliuings in their proper state can bee drawen to prooue that such as defende the state diffame the Queene or seeeke to mooue insurrection If not let him remember that both hee forgeth and runneth from his purpose like a babbling discourser wandring in a sea of wordes without compasse of style or discretion Likewise hee fableth that Doctor Bancroft writeth that her Maiestie is a petie Pope which is a gracelesse or shamelesse assertion or both for who woulde not bee ashamed but these swelling mindes that thinke they may speake what they list to ascribe that to Master Bancroft that hee reprehendeth in Martin His wordes are playne his minor 1 Pag. 68. saith he meaning Martin viz. that her Maiestie is a pety Pope may thus bee prooued If the Libeller holde on this course of lying hee will prooue many strange and wonderous matters especially among the Disciplinarians whose consistories is built on lyes But if they diffame her Maiestie that holde her to be a pety Pope as the Libeller by many great wordes and vnnecessary proofes in a matter confessed auoweth then is Martin and his partakers felonious diffamers of her Maiestie for hee holdeth that whosoeuer taketh on him the authoritie in causes ecclesiasticall which the Pope had is a petie Pope as before is sayde But that authority the whole parliament giueth to her Maiestie May it therefore please the Libeller to barke against the Parliament or els against Martin Against Master Bancroft that neyther thought it nor wrote it nor spake it but reprehendeth it in the person of Martin there is no cause for him to declayme all this Libelling notwithstanding the petitioner calleth his consortes our brethren but if his brotherhood consist in such scurrilous rayling let him seeke other brethren The brotherhood and felloship of Christians is knowen by loue The badge of puritanisme is vnnaturall and vnkinde and vnbrotherly dealing And therefore I doubt whether they be brethren or no both considering their hereticall opinions and also their vncharitable and vnchristian rayling And yet I say notwitstanding all this vnnaturall dealing that the bishops so much as they might yea too too much haue dealt remissely against such contumatious and worthlesse disturbers of the Church And that not for any thing which appeareth in this accusers wtitings wherein they see nothing but velliacry and presumption and vanitie but in respect of their owne milde natures Christian affection and desire of peace which these fellowes scorned In the ende hee concludeth that considering the doubtfulnesse of these controuersies hee trusteth her Maiestie will take some good order for the peaceable debating of them hauing I say reuelde at full both against ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction and that before so mightie a prince whose presence he ought more to haue reuerenced hauing also at such time as hee was to speake to her Maiestie talked against all decorum with by standers yea with those that were absent nowe as it were before his death he commeth home to himselfe and prayeth her Maiestie to take some good course for the peaceable ordering of these controuersies as if all her former lawes all her care all her proceedings were not to bee valued in one haire And as if rayling and accusing deserued fauour or his dispute credite or his insolencie pardon I doubt not buther Maiestie of her wisedome seeth the impudencie of the man the weakenesse of the cause the wrong done to others but especially to her selfe her gouernement and her lawes-that others may see it I haue lightly framed this answere lest the foole should enter into conceipt of his wit and others be abused by his malice not in many words for what should I stand about that wherin is nothing but pride ignorance and choller Now because by alledging their opinions he would make the world beleeue that his clients are slandered I wil shew that he 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 smootheth some things that are hard and concealeth many things that are worse and therefore that he and his clients are to be taken as they are The words I haue set downe and by them my answere reade with iudgement iudge with equity shewe equity to trueth Obseruations vpon certaine opinions commonly holden by the puritanes and collected by the said author of the petition with answeres to their petitions and desires ioyned with the foresaid opinions The words of the petitioner TO the end it may appeare how vniustly the seekers of reformation are slandered by the bishops Petitioner and others I haue thought good briefly truly to deliuer the opinions of such as sue for reformation which I haue gathered out of their bookes and seene in their practise and heard in conference which I had with them Neither hath the man deliuered his consorts opinions truly Answere nor was it sufficient if hee had meant to cleare them from slander to deliuer some part of their opinions vnlesse he had also deliuered their whole doctrine concerning their consistoriall discipline for what excuse may it bee for an here-tike to beleeue well in some poyntes or for leude men to doe something well But this generall doctrine of theirs neyther doth he nor durst hee deliuer it was somewhat too hoat and sawcie The soueraigntie of the aldermen in making lawes iudging and excommunicating princes dissoluing the lawes of the land taking away her Maiesties prerogatiue in pardoning offences and depriuing her of the argument she hath to shewe her clemencie in in diminishing her reuenues hee concealeth Neither doth hee reueale vnto vs those mysticall rules whereby the consistoriall faction doth ouerthrowe the parliament the apologie and fayth of this Church the Vniuersities and many priuate mens interest Likewise hath he passed ouer in goodly glosing wordes and not once mentioned other dangerous poynts That therefore which hee wanteth to the intent that wee may haue a perfect draught of the alestond of this newe brewed discipline I purpose to set down and to declare vnto you both their doctrine and their practise So that you may perceiue that they are vainely tearmed seekers and sewers for reformation And that the cause wee defende is not the cause of bishops whom we leaue to defend their doings themselues but the cause of God of religion of our countrey of the prince of learning of the whole ministerie against factious mates and heretical schismatikes and enemies of the ministery learning that in these dangerous times go about to make an vproare in their countrey and a spoyle of the rewards of learning If then that which is best in
consistorian faction good because some here mentioned fauoured it for some had one respect some another and were men of strange Diuinitie for the most part which I could iustifie by particulars but I will not trouble the rest of those that are dead nor disgrace those that are aliue Let them be as good as they are supposed yet doe I beleeue one Father in matters of Diuinitie before them all Besides that diuers men here named neuer fauoured the Consistorie as the last French kings the Dukes of Saxony other Christian potentates neither did the Frenchmen contend for the Consistory which came to be afterwarde established but for religion And well it is knowen that both the Earle of Leycester and Sir Francis Walsingham in their latter times renounced these men confessing that they had bene greatly abused by their hypocrisie Neither do I thinke that Sir Nicholas Bacon Sir Walter Mildemay and such noble counsellours woulde fauour factious fellowes or suppose these whome the Libeller defendeth to bee good subiects Nay one of them hath spoken most earnestly in open Parliament against them and their Elderships so that this argument that standeth on such false assertions and weake authoritie cannot be good If this argument be sufficient to proue them good subiects albeit they deny her Maiesties supremacie in Ecclesiasticall causes and slander her gouernement then Papists and traitors may by the same be prooued to be good subiects for great Princes states and potentates fauour their cause The Bishops and other ministers that liue in obedience of Lawe cannot with those faultes bee charged and therefore are wronged to bee matched with these mutinous mates that with multitude and power rather then reason seeke to preuayle Yet haue they against them all the ancient fathers all counsels all learned men of time past yea all antiquitie yea many learned men of our time with whome neither for nomber nor authoritie are these fellowes to bee compared Quaere Putcase Quest 40. whether a Minister ought not to admonish the mightiest Prince of his duetie refuse to administer the sacrament vnto him if he bee a notorious offender and pronounce him to bee no member of Christ in the communion of Saintes if hee continue obstinate in open crimes and whether vnder the Law Dauid and other princes were not subiect to ceremoniall expiations and the spirituall power of Priestes and Prophets and whether Ambrose did well in vsing like authority towards an Emperour and lastly whether Zanchus Caluin Bucer Nowel Iewel Bilson and Bridges approouing the like be traytors Popes and tyrants If a minister may doe all these seruices against a prince Answere what should any neede to desire the Eldership forsoothe belike one is too fewe to suppresse a princes authoritie for this cause it is not fitting that any such power should bee granted eyther to ministers or to consistories for that which is alledged viz. that ministers may admonish princes maketh nothing for the consistory nor excommunication of princes by ministers for betwixt publike and generall admonitions and excommunication there is no small difference euery minister may vse that according to his place and calling but it were somewhat too sawcy a matter for euery hot braynd fellowe to vse this especially against princes neither did either the priests excōmunicate Dauid nor Ambrose pronounce sentence against Theodosius he did only exclude him from his owne communion nor do I find where any of these learned men euer did make the soueraine prince subiect to a cocke braynd fellowes curse If he were subiect then were he no soueraine prince then should euery minister controlle the prince which is absurd repugnant to state but as this felow doth insinuate Dauid was subiect to ceremonial expiations admitte it were so yet great difference there is betweene these expiations voluntarily vndertaken and excommunication violently pronounced as learned men haue shewed There is no other meanes whereby the 1 Machiauel histor fiorent lib. 1. Popes grewe great at the first then by excommunication shall we then recall againe the Papall tyrannie shall we establish the instrument of so many rebellions shall wee admit such foolish conditionall sentences which all Lawes condemne As for Nowel Bilson Bridges and others writing against papistes they doe not simply auowe such excommunication of princes as these would haue but prooue that other bishops may proceede therein as farre as the bishops of Rome and that with them they haue equall authoritie Quaere Put-case Quest 41. why there may not bee vnder a Christian Magistrate Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and Widowes aswell as Parsons Lecturers Schoolemasters Churchwardens Collectours for the poore and Hospitall women seeing these doe and may execute in authoritie and power the whole forme of Church gouernment desired though their practise thereof is infinitely corrupted against the Canons of the Apostles to the danger of the Church and dishonour of the Realme First it is false Answere that they may execute the same authoritie that the Eldershippe may Who would not bee ashamed to affirme that our Churchwardens may excommunicate any person or that any with vs beside the Prince and parliament might make Lawes and orders but hee that shameth of nothing But suppose they doe some things which the aldermen doe yet were it no reason because these doe somewhat by lawe that we should admit a gouernment contrary to lawes to state to her Maiesties prerogatiue to al scriptures fathers antiquity yea to sence reason That which he saith that the offices of our churchwardens and hospitall men are corrupt to the danger of the church and dishonour of the real me is nothing but a sound of great words without reason for neither are the offices so corrupt as he pretendeth nor is there in thē danger or disgrace nay the worst of our churchwardens are as honest wise and learned as his church-aldermen as fit to gouerne as they yea and our collectors be as good as his deacons and that hospitals be not corrupt T.C. will looke that is a master of an hospitall and a man voy de of all corruption and good dealing Quaere whether the Ecclesiasticall high commission be not in effect an Eldership wherein some gouerne with Ministers Put-case Quest 42. who by profession are temporall Lawyers Ciuilians meere laye men and whether this gouernment consisting of spirituall and temporall persons be a meddley and lynsey wolsey discipline as the Remonstrance calleth the Eldership which is now desired Nothing is more repugnant Answere nor with lesse reason compared together then the high commission eldership If I did not tell them so much yet me thinketh that their continuall declayming against the high cōmission as proceeding contrary to lawes might teache them so much for if they be so like as this fellowe nowe recanting his rayling against the high commission pretendeth why should not wee take exceptions against the imperious aldermanship of the church as these doe against
in his Church as these doe fancie I can no where find Neyther is it likely that he should teach that abroad which hee neuer deliuered to his owne Citizens at home Aretius 1 In 1. Cor. 12 speaketh of certaine elders in his Commentaries but whatsoeuer they were hee thinketh that they ought to haue no vse vnder the Christian Magistrate And therefore by this testimonie these fellowes cānot win any vantage That they were not like the disciplinarian Aldermen it may appeare for that during the times of persecution they supplied the magistrates office and dealt in all causes of the first Christians as hee thinketh Of such elders as Aretius speaketh of it may be that Illyricus had some such like conceit But farre were they both from the opinion of them of Geneua concerning their lordly consistorie that climeth vp aboue princes Out of 1 In 1. Cor. 12. Hemingius there cannot any such fancie bee gathered as this of my yong masters the Church aldermen writing vpon the 1. Corinth 12. hee doeth interprete the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ordinances of ecclesiasticall discipline which amounteth nothing to the account of these fellowes yea hee alloweth the 2 Syntagm Heming prerogatiue and authoritie of Bishops aboue other ministers which can beare no sway among these lordly commanders The place of 3 In 1. Cor. 12. Hyperius maketh not to purpose for albeit he be produced by the libeller as a witnesse for the eldership yet doth hee testifie against it for hee saith not that any such aldermen as these conceyue were ioyned with the Bishop in gouernement and equall authoritie but that Bishops vsed the aduise of ancient and graue men not these rough hewen aldermen that are neyther wise nor graue but rather grieuous to Gods Church But most of all doe I wonder what reason the libeller had to cite 4 De reformand abusib ad Imperatorem Bucer who in the place quoted doth not so much as mention any elders much lesse teach their office qualitie and continuance but contrariwise hee sheweth that if there were no other difference betwixt the Papists and him hee would easily yeelde to bishops their titles and dignities and wisheth that Metropolitanes and other bishops woulde returne to the obseruance of ancient Canons And so farre was Bullinger from fauoring any such new packe of aldermen as these woulde haue that hee 5 In libr. erast de excom in fine yeelded his approbation to the opinion of Erastus that denied both the presbytery and presbyteriall censures Zegedin another of this mans witnesses doth say much against him concerning the 6 Loc. Com. pag. 202. superioritie of bishops and newe deuice of doctors and other poynts But where hee speaketh any one worde for the consistorial gouernours the place cannot yet be found what should I stand long in tracing out the notorious falsehood of this forger of false quotations in euery paticuler By these already examined you may vnderstand how honestly hee dealeth in the rest and by this also that it is knowen that the Churches of 1 Onely in the Palsgraues dition they say there is some haunt of the eldership to be found Germanie Denmarke and Zuitzerland doe all repell the eldership yea when certaine factious companions comming from Geneua would haue made some stirre in the ecclesiasticall gouernement at Zuricke Gualter resisted them and the magistrates sent them out of their citie to place their consistories in some other quarter in remotis Likewise doth he report vntrueth concerning M. Nowel M. Fulke and M. Whytaker M. Nowell speaketh some what concerning elders but that he meant the tēporary aldermen that sprung vp first at Geneua and now vse to come from the marchants stall and workehouse into the Church to order matters of faith and doctrine it cannot be surmised Neither hath the libeller any reason to build his fancies vpon M. Fulkes opinions for in the confutation of the notes of the Rhemish Testament he doth defend the gouernement of the Church of England as now it is albeit he was somtime of other mind yet did he afterward retract his former sayings And when Iohn Field contrary to his mind did publish the pamphlet called the learned discourse hee was offended with him and if he had liued would haue confuted the same himselfe Neither do I beleeue that M. Raynolds being so well conuersant in counsels and fathers doth admit an eldership contrary to the sayings and practise of both M. Whitaker is a man of too great iudgement to beleeue the vnlettered improbable deuise of the consistorie And well is it kowen that hee hath taught both publikely and priuately against it Neyther is it likely that hee hath nowe greater reasons to moue him since he maried in the tribe of those that fauour these conceites then before so that when al is come to all the authors of this discipline are 20 or 30 foreine authors and halfe a score English perfumed with the smoke of Geneua and wel read in Caluins Institutions And the grounds of it are not scripture nor antiquitie nor reason but conceyte and foolish fancie and the authoritie of such as deserue no credite speaking in their owne cause If the libeller thinke otherwise let him or else because hee is but a man of a weake brayne and small learning let any of the faction drawfoorth Caluins and Bezaes reasons nay let either Beza himselfe or any of them answere that which hath bene set forth against their opinions already and confirme Caluins and Bezaes weake and euill shapen reasons and then will the vanitie of all the newe platforme and also of these allegations appeare To prooue the continuance of the gouernement by Elders he falsifieth also diuers authors as Zuinglius Oecolampadius Capito Melancthon Bullinger and maketh lyes vpon Fulke and Reynoldes for I thinke master Raynoldes holdeth no such fancy And I am assured that Fulke retracted his opinion so that his onelie reason also for the continuance of the Eldership is because Miconius Micronius and Caluin Beza Daneau and Calueton Colladon Tauergues Perot Iacomot Duple Golart Pollan Perille Henry others neuer heard of in this horisō beleeue the continuance of the consistorial gouernment that we must renounce scriptures fathers and al antiquity which is neither a good nor learned kind of reasoning yet for any thing I can see it is not onely the best but also the onely reason he vseth deny the new fācies that they haue deuised embraced at Geneua you marre the frame of their consistory why wee should credit them against scriptures fathers stories there can be alledged no cause Much lesse is there reason we should beleeue Peter Carpenter a knowen Apostata from religion or Bodin a man better conuersant in pollicy then in diuinity and whose religion was al poperie yet if we should I do not finde any thing in eyther that soundeth to the honor of the Aldermens cause For 1 Aduers Fr.
which is sayde of a hundred thousande handes hee answereth that it is meant of a subscription to a supplication which if it were graunted yet woulde the same bee very strange if not rebellious for what is such a supplication but a coniuration or at least 1 Armatae preces armed prayers But saith hee Martin doeth not there exhort to rebellion neyther doe wee charge him with it but wee say that hee speaketh seditiously and that he insinuateth that puritans if they should not haue their supplication graunted would either haue gone away discontent or taken part with the enemie and that the packe of puritans entend rebellion for that appeareth First by confession of Martin that insinuateth they had many ready to maintayne that cause and next by those vagrant rogues that came downe into all shires with billes crauing subscription which is nothing but the beginning of a coniuration for neuer did so many ioyne but in rebellion nor can such a nomber confederate themselues without danger to the state And if the Prince were not exceeding clement she would teache them the payne of subscriptions and confederation for to obteyne alteration of State especially when Martin threatneth that so many would strike a great stroke which is very true for so many and lesse too being well armed and gouerned are able to fight with any prince in the worlde Neyther will it serue that hee sayeth that the speach is Tropologicall for it is rather Diabolicall and trayterous The wordes of 2 Vindiciae con tyrannos Iunius Brutus that for the eldership sayth it is lawfull to mooue stirres are disclaymed by the Libeller but litle knoweth he who is the authour of that booke for it was made eyther by Beza or Hotoman and conteyneth nothing but consistoriall doctrine Neyther doe I thinke that he will disclayme T. C. that meaneth to fight so stoutly that if euery hayre of his head were a life hee woulde afforde them all in defence of his platforme Nor of Goodman Gilby Whittingham and the Geneuians without whome this cause cannot stand Therefore if the Libeller renounce rebellion and the doctrine of it he must also renounce the nource of rebellion the Consistorie and all his deare darlinges vpon whose bare names as it were vpon emptie barrels hee buyldeth his consistoriall barriquades and bulwarkes Where they threaten troubles if they may not haue the discipline the Libeller answereth that thereby they meane scholasticall troubles while both partes write concerning discipline but that cannot be the meaning of the author for he meant troubles that would ensue and not which already were But the contention about discipline in writing before that time was at the hottest Neither is there any other sence to bee drawen out of the wordes but that great and bloody stirres would be about discipline if the same might not otherwise be obteined finally it is the common proceeding of the consistorie that without wracke and force did neuer enter either at Geneua or in France or Scotland Whereunto Th. C. in the conuenticle or synode in Warwickeshire as is supposed layde a good foundation for there the discipline was set downe there subscription and promise was made that all ministers should aduance it by all their power No doubt they meant as well force as fayre meanes for therein they haue neuer bene scrupulous Hee answereth also in defence of the Scottish ministers but he sayth nothing of the Roade of Ruthuen and Sterlinge and concealeth most dangerous matters wandring from the purpose in a generalitie of wordes Hee did not remember that 1 A noble precedent of consistoriall excommunication Galloway at Saint Iohnston cursed both the men that should take part with the King and their horses and speares and how Iames Gibson vsed the King very homely and how Iohn Cooper refused to obey the King And howe Andrewe Meluin vsed very tart speeches towarde him and yet obstinately refused to acknowledge him selfe bounde to answere his contempt these matters the petitioner eyther vnderstoode not or would not call to remembrance hee also seemeth to bee ignorant how vpon such like insolent behauiour the King tendring certaine articles to the Scottish Preachers as first that they should yeelde their obedience to the King secondly that they should not pretende Priuiledge thirdly that they should not meddle in matters of State fourthly that they should not publikely reuile his Maiestie that they neuer yeelded to subscribe A notorious argument of singuler insolencie in them if it bee as is reported and simplicitie in the petitioner that going about to cleare his cause giueth occasion of further matter against it Where wee alleadge that Brutus Iunius a Consistoriall writer or to speake more playnely Hotoman or Beza sayth that the people of themselues may set vp Gods seruice and abrogate superstition and that it is lawfull for the people by force of armes to resist the Prince if he hinder the buylding of the Church which these men take specially to consist in the eldership And where also wee set downe many trayterous speeches out of Goodman Gilby Martin T.C. and others the Libeller answereth first that these authors wrote against tyrants and enemies of religion as if the pretence of religon were sufficient to arme the subiects to depose the prince wherein is declared that these men accompting those that stop the eldership enemies of religiō hold that such princes as hinder the eldership may be deposed also which is an answere euill beseeming a man professing allegiance to her Maiestie and pretending to bee of the best sort of subiects Secondly hee saith that the same speeches are alledged by the Papistes to condemne our doctrine but that answere maketh much against the Puritans and not vs for wee condemne both that practise and that doctrine and those that haue giuen such a scandale to the Church They embrace it and therefore are condemned as perturbers of the State And albeit nowe they alter their hint and teache obedience changing faith with time yet that was their opinion once and I doubt not will bee as oft as time serueth Thirdly hee answereth that the doctrine of the consistorie dependeth not on two or three which we doe not affirme in this cause for we say that these opinions are generally imbraced of that faction and of the chiefest of them and that the same is so ioyned with the consistory that without the same it can not be mainteined for if the prince bee chiefe gouernour of the church the consistorie hath no place and if the consistory haue place away goeth the princes authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes Lastly he giueth out that our English bishops as well as the consistoriall faction haue rebelled against princes which answere first is not concludent for the offence of one is no protection for others secondly it is false The petitioner ought to haue shewed who these rebels be and where their rebellion is defended by bishops such as now we haue If he cannot shew them
from them in externall forme and ceremonies As Papists doe make treason religion so it may bee Answere that these schismatikes for their misdemeanours woulde bee accounted religious Otherwise it is euident that neither Papists nor Puritanes suffer for religion in England And therefore euil doeth it seeme that they seeke reformation or deserue to be called seekers of reformation and wel doth it appeare that they haue a bad religion and conscience that colour their lewdnesse with religion and lye without conscience As for persecution it is a terme ill applied to the proceedings of our Bishops and lewdly are they compared with traiterous papists against whom they stand in cōtinuall warfare For neither doe they conuent any but for transgressing the lawes nor do they impose punishments but vpon the rebellious those very easie punishmēts which in time of popery were death euen for denial of the least ceremony which this Putcase not vnderstanding he sheweth himself to babble of matters that he vnderstandeth not That bishops did offer life to Vdal for I knowe none but him and Hacket and a traytor in Suffolke condemned about these matters it is absurd to affirme For not they but others condemned him Neither is it in their power to graunt life nor in their wisedome to offer that which they cannot graunt And if they should bee so remisse as to bee meanes to her Maiestie for them yet would it argue their elemencie in going about to procure their liues that seeke the bishops ouerthrowe nay that most factiously goe about to ouerthrowe the Church the state and the rewards of learned men Quaere Putcase Quaest 33. whether he that publisheth bookes with long premeditation doth publish the same with a malicious intent True Answere if they be malicious bookes such as this libel is and such as the Demonstration of discipline and Martins ribauldrie was Neither is the case alike of a Sergeant arguing against the trueth in his Clients cause and of these that with out fee argue against both trueth and state For it is well knowen hee doth it for his fee and taketh heede howe hee offendeth against lawe but these leauing the case doe argue or rather rayle against the person yea against lawe and honestie Quaere Putcase Quaest 33. whether ecclesiasticall Iudges doe not giue sentence contrary to the common lawes and statutes of the realme and whether prohibitions doe not lye in such cases No doubt Answere there lyeth a prohibition if they proceed contrary to law But men learned will take heed they do not and especially seeing they haue such Canarian birdes as this looking vpon their doings and watching for the spoyle But let them take heede for in warres the spoyler is often spoyled and those that digge pits for the innocent fall into them themselues Quaere Putcase Quaest 34. whether hishops are not in praemunire or at least desere to be imprisoned and fined for practising popish and ciuill lawes in their courts seeing all forreine authoritie is banished and those canons and constitutions prouinciall and synodall onely authorized that haue bene made in England Litle doth this dolt knowe Answere what the praemunire meaneth If he did he would not so often flourish with the sword and doe no hurt Those incurre the praemunire which drawe the Queenes Subiects into forreine courtes out of the Queenes courts seeke to defeate iudgements giuen in the Queenes courts Likewise he is ignorant what lawes are practised in the ecclesiasticall courts For there are no lawes practised there but the Queenes lawes viz. such canons as were practised in England before the making of the Act. 25. Hen. 8. ca. 19 and not as this fondling saith such canons as were made in England Good it were therefore that some of his company would eyther admonish him or premonish him hereafter to leaue babbling of matters which hee knoweth not For it is either plaine impudencie or lunacie so to wrangle Quaere whether the bishops or the consistorie Putcase Quaest 35. encroch more vpon the ciuill magistrate That is a matter most easily answered For the bishops Answere albeit they deale in testamentarie causes tithes mariages and haue Baronies and sometimes deale as Iustices of peace yet all this authoritie they haue vnder the prince and from him they deriue it Contrariwise the consistorie draweth no authoritie from the prince but contendeth with the prince about supreme authoritie It giueth lawe to the prince it doth chastise and iudge the prince vnder colour of the breach of Gods lawe it doth encroch vpon all causes and controlleth all that are subiects to Gods lawe whereof the same doth take it selfe to be iudge It chooseth and deposeth all officers of the Church nay it deposeth princes if the fautors of it say true These therefore bee the fellowes that encroch nay that treade downe princes and as Th. Cartwright sayeth make princes to licke the dust of their feete As for that which this Putcase alledgeth that the Archbishop giueth the prince dispensations vnder his hand and seale it is a fable Let him shewe any of these licences so graunted But sayeth hee the lawe saith hee may well then let him quarrell with the lawe and not with the Archbishop who challengeth nothing as these doe but by the princes grant Besides that lawe was made to exclude all forreyne iurisdiction which these men woulde gladly bring in That which the libeller sayth of excommunication for mony is a leud calumniation long since answered Forwel it is knowen that no man is excommunicated for money but for disobedience to the Iudges decree and sentence And as those that will not yeelde to the ciuill Iudges sentence euen in the smallest matters are compelled by imprisoment so those that refuse to obey the ecclesiasticall Iudge are compelled by ecclesiasticall censures For they themselues doe interprete these wordes He that will not heare the Church c. to bee vnderstood both of great and small matters Quaere Putcase Quaest 37. if Moses vnder the law and Timothee and others vnder the Gospell needed to haue a forme of gouernment of the Church prescribed to them by the Lord whether it bee likely that the Lorde woulde commit the Church to M. Whitg M. Cooper M. Bancroft and others to frame a gouernement for it at their pleasures The Lord doth not commit his Church to bee gouerned by any at their pleasures Answere least of all to the aldermen and new consistories things like toodestooles the last night risen out of the ground and ruling al things without reine or restraint of reason It might haue pleased this libeller in naming these men to vse other names if not for authoritie they beare yet for common ciuilities sake but he will perchance shewe that he neyther respecteth authoritie nor ciuilitie but meaneth to reuell at all that resist his fancie and that iniuriously for neyther these excellent men nor others doe hold it lawfull to frame a fond
tooke for the establishing of theirs 51 Quaere whether T. Cartw. and his fellowes haue not assembled in synodes and conuenticles 2 Examinations in the starre chamber and their own confessions there enacted and decreed certaine rules and orders contrary to her Maiesties lawes and subscribed them and procured others to subscribe them and by all meanes possible gone about to put the same in practise and to discredite and disgrace the lawes of her maiestie and ancient gouernement of the Church Quaere whether in their saide 3 Disciplina sacra orders which they call holy discipline all authoritie in Church causes is not taken from the Christian magistrate and giuen to their assemblies in so much that the magistrate is not so much as mentioned when they talke of their new gouernement and how the sufferance of these proceedinges may stand with the maiestie of a prince or with good gouernment 53 Quaere whether they doe not 1 T.C. pag. 162 163 417. discours of eccl discip pag. 148. 174. holde that the authoritie which they challenge to their elderships and synodes by their said platformes of discipline is neyther increased nor diminished whether the prince bee Christian or heathen and teach not that the authoritie of a Christian and heathen prince is all one in ecclesiasticall causes 54 Quaere 2 That is in part euident by their confessions in the Starre chamber whether Cartwright and his adherentes haue not put the greatest part of their discipline in practise without her Maiesties consent and authoritie and without the sayde authoritie haue not both made secrete meetings and established diuers orders and broched new opinions all contrary to the doctrine confession and gouernement of the Church of England 55 Quaere by what presumption he durst do these things and why hee is not to bee brought publikely to submit himselfe for his faults 56 Quaere whether the same seditious proceedings bee not condemned in certaine actes made in the parliament holden Anno 1584 at Edenborough 57 Quaere 3 In his examinations in the Starre chamber whether Th. Cartwright sware truely in the Starre chamber when hee affirmed on his oath that hee neuer affirmed or allowed that in euery Monarchie there ought to bee certaine magistrates like the Spartaine Ephori with authoritie to depose the king c. seeing the same poynt is in Fenners booke of diuinity which one Th. Cartwr in his Epistle printed before the booke doth highly commende as a profound piece of diuinity and heauenly axiomes and doctrine and whether if some other had so sworne they should not haue bene accounted periured persons and whether by the rules of discipline it bee lawfull for the edification of the consistorie to sweare falsely 58 Quaere 4 Examinations in the Starre chamber published whether haue not T.C. and his fellowes confessed on their oathes that notwithstanding all the care that hath beene taken for the perfecting of their platformes of discipline they are not yet resolued vpon diuers poyntes and whether they did wisely to subscribe such orders or duetifully to animate certaine gentlemen of meane vnderstanding in diuinitie to present such a confused platforme of gouernment to the parliament that it might bee confirmed and receiued throughout the whole Realme and finally whether wisedome will permit men to dissolue a state alreadie setled and to embrace a gouerment whereupon the authours themselues are not yet resolued nor I thinke neuer will bee and wherein others see notorious absurdities imperfections and iniustice 59 Quaere 1 Ibid. whether T.C. and his companions doe not say vpon their othes that they meant to haue bene suiters to her Maiestie and the parliament for the approbation and receiuing of their draught of discipline before mentioned and subscribed vnto by them as a perfect plat of Church gouernement commanded by Gods worde doe not vtterly disclaime by a most necessarie implication her Maiestie to haue any preheminence and authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes by the word of God seeing they doe not giue any authoritie in their perfect platforme to the ciuill magistrate but yeelde all that power to their synodes classes and consistories 60 Quaere whether Cartwr and some of his fellowes and followers were not acquainted with the conspiracie of Hacket 1 Conspiracy for reformation Coppinger and Arthington and whether they knewe not that these fellowes or some of them pretended to haue an extraordinary calling which mooued them to attempt matters which might proue very dangerous to themselues whether also they knew not that the actions which they purposed to attempt by vertue of their calling did tende to their deliuerance out of prison and to the aduancing of the holy cause as they tearmed it and thereupon at Coppingers motion did holde a puritane fast wherein prayers were made to this effect that God woulde giue successe to all such meanes as shoulde bee attempted for the deliuerance of the Saintes of God and for the setting vp of their discipline and whether T. Cartw. and the wiser sort of them did not vnderstand whereto the foresaid allobrogicall and outlandish propositions of extraordinary callings did tend and finally whether all these points being such as in part haue and may fully bee prooued against them they haue not bene mercifully dealt withall and farre aboue their desertes that they haue not hitherto bene called therefore in question 61 Quaere whether Cartw. and his fellowes challenging to their eldership authority to excommunicate princes are not like to prooue as dangerous subiectes as Sanders Parsons or Card. Allen are in maintaining the popes excommunication of her Maiestie and whether it is not likely considering the inconstancie of their discipline and resolutions that although some of them pretend now to holde that excommunication doth not take away ciuill subiection they will notwithstanding for their aduantage teach contrary to their present resolutions 62 Quaere whether some one of the reformed 1 Buchanan de iure regniapud Scot. pag. 70. brotherhood haue not mainteyned in bookes printed that princes standing excommunicate may bee put to death and that when princes will not reforme religion subiects ought to do it and that saint 2 Buchan ibid. pag. 56. 57. Paules precepts of obedience to tyrants bind no further then vntil such time as the people is strong inough to resist be able to master them by force of armes 63 Quaere whether Sanders Rosse Allen and other papistes doe not in the behalfe of poperie maintaine the very same poyntes of rebellion together with Goodman Whittingham Knoxe and their teachers Beza Hotoman Buchanan and whether both factions haue not made princes subiect to the people and populer furie and taught the same doctrine of the beginning of the authoritie of princes the papistes seeking to erect their papacy the disciplinarians endeuouring to set vp their papall presbyterie 64 Quaere whether some of the doctors of this new discipline doe not mislike with the
recreate my selfe with this more easie labour and to answere their cauils at our proceedings in law together with such authorities as they bring for the proofe of their consistorie to the finall discouerie of their vnbrideled malice that all seeing the nakednesse of their cause may ioyne together to extirpate the reliques of those that haue bene causers of these stirres Against this my purpose I doe vnderstand that diuers exceptions are taken First those that fauour the consistoriall discipline doe say I withstand a noble worke of reformation and therefore cannot like of my doings but vnto these this whole treatise shall make answere for thereby it shall appeare that their whole course tendeth rather to confusion and disorder of Church and state then to reformation of eyther and therefore seeing they doe declare themselues open enemies both vnto the present state and to me in this cause I doe not regard what they like or dislike no doubt but that open enemies will like that best which for the State is worst and greatly prayse that which tendeth to the hurt thereof Others there are that condemne all those discourses that are written of both sides concerning this argument which albeit they would seeme to be friendes yet in deede are enemies as well as the other For no more is he an enemie that oppugneth vs in plaine fielde then hee that trecherously seeketh to discourage such as are forwarde in mainteining the State at home and albeit they would colour their malice with pretence of detestation of contention among friendes yet doe they vs wrong to accompt them that oppugne the state friendes or attribute the cause of contention to vs that onely defend the State against contentious and malcontent persons such as would ruinate the same for not those that defend but those that begin the braule are contentious Were it not thinke you a ridiculous thing for a man to say that valiant men that fight for their countrey are contentious and a poynt of trecherie to discourage them why then should not the like bee thought of those that condemne them that write in defence of the present gouernment of religion and learning in like degree as if they had writ against the same These men are sorie that any should stop the breach against such as seeke to enter to make spoyle and therefore as secret enemies or weake persons that neither vnderstand matters of State nor reason are to be contemned if not reproued A last sort there is that percase mislike the sharpenesse of my stile but they must consider that in this discourse I deale not against men of learning or grauitie or such as desire to learne or finde out trueth but against ignorant wilfull and seditious Libellers that seeke partly by falshood and partly by disgrace of some bad persons vnworthy of their places to discredite the whole ecclesiastical state against whom no sharpenesse of stile can be sufficient but I did respect rather what became me to speake then what they deserued to heare This discourse I present to your Lordship a man well acquainted with the humors of the men and weakenesse of their cause a Iudge most skilfull in law Vnto whom should wee seeke for resolution in law and redresse of wrong rather then to him that beareth so honourable a charge in matters of Iustice vnder your name I would it should come to the handes and viewe of all other reuerend Iudges learned Lawyers and well affected subiectes Wee desire nothing more then that matters may bee examined according to iustice and doubt not but if that may be obtayned that the controuersie will bee ended and the calumnious mouthes of factious persons stopped for seeing the platformers haue neither support of trueth nor law what man will doubt but that they are to be repressed aswell by Iustice as by disputation and discourse That is the meanes to ende all our complaynts the remedie of our common griefes if the perturbers of our State at home were first calmed I would not doubt but forrein aduersaries would soone be danted and the mindes of friendes vnited to the ioy of all that loue the trueth of Gods religion and seeke the long continuance of her Maiesties peaceable reigne and the florishing state of the Church Accept therefore I beseech you my good Lord this my good will which I testifie vnto you in this Treatise Due it is to you being so forwarde and vpright in matters of Iustice and was expected at my handes being specially touched in the petition which I answere I make your Lordship and all the learned yea all indifferent men iudges Iudge therefore according to iustice and trueth There is no reason I should require fauour in this cause further then my simple skill and vnsufficient handling of matters for want of time and being oppressed with other businesse shall require fauour The Lord send peace to his Church and heape vpon you and all others that loue his trueth all heauenly graces that by your meanes enioying the benefites of true religion iustice and peace wee may consent in one trueth and ioyntly in his holy Church glorifie Christ Iesus the Prince of peace In London the 20 of December Your Lordships in all duetie and heartie affection MATHEVV SVTCLIFFE The Preface wherein both the argument of the discourse ensuing is deliuered and certaine generall faults of the petition touched I Had once well hoped that eyther the authoritie of the Magistrate could haue commanded or the terrour of the common enemie that so violently doth assayle the whole Church at this time would haue enforced the contentious to make an ende of their braules and if neither reuerence of superiors nor respect of common profit could put them to silence yet did I imagine seeing they haue nothing to say that discretion and common sense would make them to hold their peace how much my expectation was deceiued this petition which I haue here vndertaken to answere doth declare for without respect to lawes or common profite yea or common reason the author thereof hath put forth himselfe to speake a man as you shal see without reuerence to superiours or conscience in reporting of lawes or iudgementin matters diuine or humane and most vnable to speake or write in this or other argument To goe no further this his petition shall make proofe of my words for neither is there art in his stile nor witte or sharpenesse in his arguments nor is there any decencie obserued in the discourse nor doth the treatise agree with the title nor the parts thereof with themselues the stile is like Iohn Bels song of Couentrie the sentences hang together like lenten deames first he kneeleth on his knee then asketh pardon afterward telleth of all good subiects how they desire peace and yet notwithstanding he telleth of many that increase contention then he talketh of writing of bookes of generall counsels and a newe kind of disputing by writing matters that neyther haue coherence among themselues
is against all lawe all practise yea against all reason Therefore euen the malcontent disciplinarians that take away the name giue notwithstanding the authoritie of Bishops to their rulers of Synodes in whome if the same were as they say vnlawfull no reason it should bee continued any little time And further vpon the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 denying superioritie to Bishops ouer ministers they doe notwithstanding giue an vnbrideled and absolute authoritie to the Consistories These arguments and others which I haue set downe stand vnanswered that which is sayd against bishops may be most easily and hath often bene answered neither doth this vnlettered fellow bring either new arguments or confirme the olde nay he leaueth all arguments which his fellowes haue brought out of scriptures therein shewing good iudgement for in deede it is absurd to thinke that bishops may be ouerthrowen by scriptures vpon which their authoritie is built I wonder with what face after so many proofes brought in this cause hee durst goe about without arguments to ouerthrowe that which hath such grounde vpon scriptures lawes reasons onely for a shewe he hath brought a number of names of * Pag. 10. 11. counsels fathers Churches and late writers but when the matter shall come to triall it shall be found that they doe all forsake him in this cause and that both they and infinite more then these speake against him I answere therefore first generally that it is no good argument that in this cause is drawen from Daneau Tauergues Perot Chauneton Carpentier or other of their faction Secondly that these counsels and fathers and Churches and learned men which he quoteth haue not oppugned Bishops or their gouernement The canons of the Apostles are placed in forefront of this aray against Bishops Can. 6. c. 80. not that they speake against thē but for that it pleaseth the petitioner to make some shewe in the entrance of his matter of apostolicall authoritie in the sixt Canon there is no mention made of Episcopall iurisdiction so that it may appeare that he looked not on the place It may be he meant the seuenth Canon for there both Bishops Priestes and Deacons are forbidden to meddle with worldly affaires and in the 80 Canon Bishops Priestes are charged not to intrude themselues into publike charges But neither place maketh one word against the superioritie of Bishops ouer Ministers nor their authoritie in ordination excommunication and other Ecclesiastical matters for which they are alledged nay contrariwise they giue ordination 1 Can. 2. 36 of Ministers to Bishops and plainely distinguish 2 c. 1. 2. 40. Bishops and priestes giuing to Bishops both superioritie ouer priests and also the 3 c. 40. 41. disposing of the affaires of the Church that Bishops in the primitiue Church were excluded from ciuil charges the reason was for that the Emperors were yet heathen and therefore without danger of impietie none could deale in office vnder them and in those times the offices about collection of the Emperors rentes were 4 ff de decurionib burdensome and dishonorable and therefore no maruaile if Bishops might not beare them last of all they were subiect to accomptes yet howsoeuer it was the Canons forbid not Bishops to susteine a charge imposed vpon them but ambitiously to seeke such charges generally seculer matters were not forbidden Bishops as may appeare in the same Canons 5 c. 41. so that neither doe these places make against our bishops vnder Christian princes in common wealthes wherein they are subiectes as wel as others and by their authoritie helpe their calling yea and the whole ministerie vnder them and no way hurt it neither doe they fit the petitionners purpose For Bishops by their episcopall office doe claime no ciuil authoritie nor doeth it folowe because Bishops may not beare certeine ciuil offices that therefore they are not to exercise episcopall authoritie as the petitionner doeth insinuate Next to the Apostles Canons as they are called hee citeth the 6 counsell of Carthage 19. c. but there do not appeare any Canons to haue beene made in that counsell so wide is the man from his marke commonly his fellowes vse to alledge the 4 counsell and 18 and 19 Canon yet doe not these canons fit their turne for nothing is there spoken against the office of Bishops either in ordination or contentious iurisdiction onely Bishoppes are forbidden to take on them the execution of testaments which notwithstanding hath 1 Concil Chalced. c. 3. exceptions and to bee common quarrellers in lawe which no man thinketh conuenient neyther canon maketh any thing to the purpose were not this man without discretion he would neuer alledge this counsell against Bishops that so 2 c. 3.27 31.55.68 diuersly confirmeth the authoritie of them and condemneth such 3 c. 57 67. libellers and raylors as the authors of this petition Neyther doth the counsell of Chalcedon decree any thing against the state of Bishoppes the Canons alledged onely forbid them as the puritane Ministers whereof some are grasiers some fermers some malsters doe vse to doe to hire grounds which payd rent and tribute to the Emperor or to deale in ciuil affaires or warfare least therby they should neglect their ministerie a pregnant place against diuers of these counterfeit hypocrites that shaking of their Ministerie and disdeining the base accompt of it trade in vsurie marchandise fermes and other such like occupations giuing ouer themselues to serue mammon This counsel maketh nothing for the cause of Puritans for it establisheth the authoritie of Bishops and Archbishops and condemneth such malitious and factious persons as they are that by 1 c. 17. calumnious accusations conspire the hurt or disgrace of their bishops The Petitioner doth also alledge the 6 counsell of Constantinople yet doe we not in the bookes of counsels finde any of that number nor in any counsell holden at Constantinople any thing against the authoritie or dignitie of bishops it may be he mistooke the 6 counsell of Constantinople for the 6 synode yet doeth not that speake against bishops but rather enacteth diuers 2 Synod 6. ca. 9. 10. cannons against vsurie a practise which Th. Cartw. and W. Ch. and others might doe well not to vse and for the dignitie of bishops many 3 Synod 6. c. 31. 36. 37. places To let vs further vnderstand his ignorance hee quoteth the 3 counsell of Turon whereas there were neuer but two there in neither of them any word sounding against the authoritie of bishops perhaps he meant by names of coūsels to face downe simple men or thinketh it no sinne for the glory of the consistorie to lye I beseech him to shewe vs where this 3 counsel of Turon may be found and then he shall haue further answere Beside the new third counsel of Turon he hath deuised a new counsell also of Macra which course if he hold on I
perceiue we shall haue a new booke of counsels to frame a new consistory withall to put the blame from himselfe he putteth it on Illyricus as true a quoter of textes almost as euer was Th. Cartwr his scholler but suppose that which 1 Catal. test veritat pag. 121. Illyricus hath of this counsell were true yet can not the wordes of the counsell be interpreted against bishops for suppose that a bishop may not be a King or Prince and that the callings be distinct yet may hee haue episcopall iurisdiction against which that counsell is alledged To helpe his aray of counsels hee bringeth in a supply of Fathers but very vnlike it is that they should speake against counsels being diuers of them chiefe doers in diuers counsels and therefore let him take heede least while hee mustereth the names of Fathers against bishops the men themselues doe not all fight against him That Cyprian is contrary to his allegation it is notorious for he establisheth the dignitie of bishops and vtterly ruinateth the cause of the new come gentlemen called Church-aldermen Hee subiecteth the whole 2 Lib. 1. ep 3. brotherhoode to the bishop and sayth that the same obedience is according to the commaundements of God The same authoritie is confirmed by the letters of the clergie of Rome to Cyprian Post Fabiani 3 Lib. 2. ep 7. excessum say they non est constitutus à nobis episcopus qui omnia ista moderetur He giueth to bishops the 4 Lib. 3. ep 9. succession of the Apostles and from no 5 Lib. 4. ep 9. lib. 1. ep 3. other roote doeth hee suppose heresies and schismes to spring then from contempt of the authoritie of Bishoppes So shamelesse is this Libeller to alledge Cyprian against bishops that in the places aboue named yea and in the 6 Lib. 3. ep 10. places by him quoted doth confirme their authoritie For albeit Cyprian doeth say that from his first entrance into his charge hee had determined to doe nothing but by the consent of the people and counsell of his Clergie yet doeth it not make against his superioritie nay it confirmeth it rather For with vs Bishops may doe nothing without lawe which is a most certaine consent nay good Princes rule by counsell and Lawes and yet they will not denie but that Princes in all places and Bishops with vs haue a superiour aucthoritie ouer those that are committed to them And Cyprian in that selfe same Epistle writing to the priestes and Deacons vseth these woordes I 1 Hortor mando exhorte and commaund yea further hee prescribed what was to bee done both concerning the poore and confessors and 2 Vice mea fungamini circagerenda quae religiosa administratio deposcit made a deputation to others that were to gouerne in his absence as much or rather more then bishops may with vs take vpon them to doe Likewise in the 14 Epistle of his thirde booke alledged also against bishops there are found manifest argumentes for their authoritie For hee reprehendeth the presumption of certaine Ministers too rash in reconciling those that had fallen and declareth vnto them that the Bishop is 3 Ep. 14. episcopus ipsis praepositus set ouer them and that their place is vnder the bishop of which 4 Loci sui immemores they were vnmindfull that the bishops duetie was to 5 Vt instructi à praepositis faciant omnia instruct them and their dutie to obey him It is euident that this author was not much acquainted with Cyprian that alledgeth him thus cōtrary to his meaning which is most childish and absurd quoteth the 27 epistle of Cyprians 3 booke where there are onely 15 epistles there In 6 Lib. 1. ep 9. another place Cyprian reprehendeth a certaine minister being apointed gardein to orphans executor of a testament but how the same may be drawen to make against the estate of bishops I vnderstand not for bishops among vs desire no such matter as that which Cyprian cōdemneth neither came it euer in Cyprians meaning to condemne the authoritie of Bishops as it is vsed in this Realme If hee speake against any it is especially against T. C. for albeit he be a Minister as he sayth himselfe yet refused he not the execution of his brother Stubbes his will no nor refuseth the gouernment of his Hospitall and therefore this fellowe seemeth vnwise thus deepely to lanch his deare brother T.C. whose purchases and purloynings hee hath taken on him to defend where in the meane while the state of Bishops for any thing Cyprian sayth standeth inviolable nay in the same place their iurisdiction is confirmed for Cyprian being a Bishop taketh on him to reforme Ministers and giueth bishops 1 Episcopi antecessores nostri censuerunt c. sacerdotum decretum authoritie to make ecclesiasticall lawes which pearceth the Church-aldermen that long for superioritie to the very heart Finally he taketh on him to punish disorders then which authoritie what can be greater 2 Dist 10. c. quoniā idem Gratian also extolleth Bishops aboue Princes so farre is hee from speaking against Bishoppes or their authoritie so that to alledge Gratian for proofe is as much as to vse corrosiues for pleasant medicines Neither doth it take away or diminish the authoritie and state of Bishoppes that by the Canons they may not encroche vpon the Princes authoritie in Ciuill causes for wee say that the vocation of Magistracie and ministerie is distinct and that Bishoppes in England doe not in respect they are ministers meddle with Ciuil causes but as they are subiects and are commanded Wherein they doe not shewe themselues busie in encrochments in taking on them charges imposed but shoulde shewe themselues disloyall persons at least no good subiects if they shoulde refuse them the consistoriall faction contrariwise doeth encroche both vpon Ecclesiasticall and Ciuill gouernours hauing authoritie from neither and intrude themselues where no man sendeth for them or admitteth them After Cyprian Tertullians 3 De ieiunio booke of fasting is by force drawen in by the imperious Consistorials for euidence against Bishops which I cannot but wonder at seeing they condemne both fasting in Lent other fasts which he alloweth and the degree state of bishops which he commendeth in his booke 1 Lib. de baptism of baptisme where hee giueth the chiefetie and praerogatiue of Priesthoode to Bishoppes expelling out the impudent Aldermen that nowe are crept in I knowe not by what strange concetie into Churchgouerment In the booke of fasting there is not so much as the office of bishoppes mentioned much lesse any speach against them there is order taken for their allowance which the sacrilegious consistorials that haue ruinated the Church in all places where they come doe denie them In the same place Tertullian doth construe the place 1. Timoth. 5.17 against these men for hee onely vnderstandeth by Elders that rule
well Bishops and Priestes and not these newe Aldermen which albeit they bee mute in pulpits yet are they mouthy inough in Consistories The opinion of Augustine concerning the estate of bishops is sufficiently knowen for hee thrusteth them among heretickes that deny their superioritie In which croude let this Libeller and his fellowe T. C. goe packe out of the Church together with Aerius their ringleader and an olde master of an hospitall and a famous hereticke himselfe was also a bishop and gouerned his clergie and church with as great power as nowe doe our byshops neither doeth he in eyther of the places 2 De opere monach c. 16. de ciuit der lib. 19. c. 19. quoted say any thing against them Hee condemneth not the state of bishops but their worldlinesse and not the dignitie of bishops but such as sought honour and would not endure labour which negligence wee doe not defend in any neither was hee so scrupulous in distinguishing ciuill and ecclesiastiall causes as these seeme to be for in his booke de opere Monachorum alledged by this Petitioner he doth declare that hee dealt himselfe in ciuill causes notwithstanding he was a bishop and that he hoped God woulde reward him for it Neither is there in 3 In Tit. ad Ocean Hieroms whole workes any worde sounding to the disgrace of bishoppes Hierome maketh the termes of Bishops and Priestes common in the Apostles time but that bishops and priestes should nowe be equall in power and dignitie hee neuer concluded nay hee saith that the superioritie of bishops is an Apostolicall 1 Ep. 85. tradition and borrowed of the analogie betwixt the Lawe and the Gospell and confesseth that it began in the Apostles time accordingly hee vseth Damasus Bishop of Rome and all bishops with great respect The authoritie and credite of Ambrose both with the Emperour and people and his iurisdiction in ecclesiasticall causes was farre greater then that which our Bishops haue Is it then thinke you likely that a bishop woulde speake against Bishops nay he is sayde himselfe to haue exercised the Church censures against the Emperour and giueth ordination to Bishops and calleth them the Apostles successors The place of Ambrose commonly alledged 2 Ep. 33. against Bishops ciuill iurisdiction maketh nothing against the state of Bishops for in England no Bishop hath ciuill iurisdiction as hee is a Bishop but as hee hath it by commission which to refuse were not onely a weakening but a deniall of loyaltie neither doth Ambrose forbid any to take ciuill iurisdiction but to followe worldly cares and to giue ouer their ministerie and as diuers of this faction haue done to throwe off the robes of the ministerie and to runne in their lether Ierkins after worldly gaine and pleasure That Ambrose esteemed highly the office of bishops is apparant for hee 3 In eph 4. saith that those that are nowe called bishops succeede in the charge and place of gouernment of the Apostles Chrysostome taketh to himselfe the power of excommunication yeeldeth to bishops the power of ordeining 4 In 1. Tim 4. epist Paul ad Philip. homil ad pop Antioch ministers ouer whom he giueth them authoritie himselfe was a bishop of great power and authoritie hee condemneth certaine heretikes which would not yeelde the due titles to bishops but called them onely 5 In Psal 13. reuerentia tua dignitas tua and such like termes condemned by Chrysostome reuerend and worshipfull euen like to the platformers what shame then haue these fellowes that blush not to make either so holy a bishop contrary to himselfe or manifestly to belye him and slaunder him wherefore let the words of Chrysostem against bishops be brought forth if hee bring them not Hom. 2. in epist ad Phil. euery man will take him for a plaine false coyner of authorities which nowe is in part apparant he saith that the names of bishops and priests were all one but that all bishops and priests should haue equall authoritie he saith not nor euer thought That Gregory the great is alledged against bishops is a matter most miraculous for in his time the bishoppes of Rome were come to extraordinarie greatnes incroched not only vpon their neighbors but also vpō most christian Churches so far was he frō condēning the state of bishops in the preface to his dialogues if they be his as is most vnlike he reprehendeth those that waxed old in worldly desires which neither in bishops nor other is to be alowed against episcopal authoritie he saith nothing the power of bishops ouer priests euery wherein his epistles he commendeth The quotation out of Hillary maketh nothing to the purpole hee reprehendeth Constantius the Emperor for aduancing bishops aboue the degree of bishops but that maketh for bishops and not against them for hee disaloweth not the state but the Emperors too much forwardnesse in giuing Arrian bishops too much honour and credite The Libeller hath a strange sight in 1 Ep. 67. Synesius if he thinke that he spake any thing against bishops percase he had on his 2 Those dreames that passe through horny doores as Homer feigneth are vntrue for horne is not trans parent horne spectacles when hee read them without such sight nothing is to be found in Synesius against our cause If he would haue made any conclusion out of him he would haue acknowledged so much him selfe He alledgeth with like iudgment Nazianzen his oration aduersus Maximum yet in all his works is there not any such oration found there is an oration of such matters as Gregory did against Maximus but concerning the superioritie of bishops there is nothing therein least of all any thing against bishops neither is it like he would speake against bishops himself being a bishop alowing the state of bishops he gouerned with authoritie his 1 Cum auctoritate hic praesidemus haec multis ex vobis tamquam lege sancimus Nazianz. in orat de modest in disputat seruanda words were obserued as lawes in the church he saith 2 Ibidem there is order while bishops commaund and others are ruled of such as these felowes are that wil neither obserue order nor rule he complaineth and commendeth that which they despise only he speaketh against ambitious seeking the greatest bishopricks and highest places wishing that the principality should be remoued rather then such incōueniences admitted Origene 3 In Esaiam hom 6. giueth most ample titles authority to bishops euen in the same place where he is supposed to speake against thē onely he would not haue them insult nor tyrannise ouer the people which the bishops of England neither doe nor can doe according to lawes but the Aldemen of the consistorie whose word is proofe and will law and against whose wrongs there is no sufficient remedie by appeale they do properly tyrannife yea oligarchize and therefore against such cruell tyrants Origen declaymeth and we
portum Carpenter the matter is euident for he most bitterly inueigheth against them of Geneua and not very doubtful in 1 Bodini methodus historiae c. 6. Bodin For the wordes alleadged out of Bodin his methode of histories concerne the Aldermen nothing He speaketh of the censure of Bishops and did neuer imagine nor could conceiue that the censures of the Church were put in the hands of prophane men Illa pontificum censura saith he nihil maius aut diuinius cogitari potuit Secondly he doeth not commend the men he speaketh of but the censures for that they were so strictly executed Which commendation if magistrates were as willing to execute the censures of ecclesiastical Iudges with vs as at Geneua they are would no doubt worke like effectes with vs as with them And if the magistrate should not fauour them they would doe litle good in any place Thirdly he commendeth the same censure not as the institution of Christ or as a necessarie pollicie for the Church but as a very good pollitike and ciuill order deuised by men to keepe the common sort in awe But what if Bodin should say somewhat of matters he vnderstoode not his authoritie is very weake in this case being neither good in diuinitie nor excellent in pollicie and neither vnderstanding the state of Geneua nor our countrie and therefore no fit man to make vs here in England new lawes In the Harmony of Confessions there are certaine wordes inserted sounding much to the commendation of the Eldership Neither is it to be marueiled if they of Geneua that collected thē together made the wordes to sound as fauourably as might be for their owne state and gouernement but that all the churches or most of thē yea or any saue the disciples of the Geneuian eldership consent in one harmony of prayses of that forme of discipline cannot be proued No although the authors with 2 See the notes in the latter ende of the harmonie notorious falsifications wresting and forgerie drawe the sentences of the confessions frō their purpose to speake for the presbyterial gouernment Wherefore vnlesse the petitioner can iustifie this kinde of practise there is not so much credit wonne by the vaine names of Carpenter Bodin and the confessions of Churches as there is lost by forgerie falsifications and grosse leasings To strengthen the weake ioynts of this discrasied reason drawen frō authority he saith Frist that the consistorial gouernment is also receiued of the Churches of Heluetia the low countries Millain Poland and Hungarie Secōdly that it is vnder the Turke among the papists wherein he sheweth either singuler malice in lying wilfully or presumptuous ignorance in speaking of matters he vnderstood not For it is wel knowen that the churches of Heluetia neither haue Geneuian elders nor excōmunication And that the churches of the lowe countries to speake nothing of France nor Scotland liue in great confusiō disorder a matter rather to moue vs to refuse the consistorie then to embrace it And likewise it is euident that in Millaine Hungarie there is no visible church but of those that professe poperie And albeit there be some fewe elders amōg the papists of France Germanie and Hungarie yet doe they not shew thēselues nor haue they any allowance or thankes for being there But what maner of conclusion is this That because among papistes and Turkes Elders are receiued that we must also receiue them There are also Anabaptists Arrians and I know not how many heresies among the Turkes papistes which no reason requireth vs to embrace Poperie likewise is professed vnder the Turke not onely this consistorial discipline So that nothing can be more absurde then to conclude that therefore we are to admitte the Consistorie because it is crept in in Turky and among the papistes Likewise it is a vaine bragge to say That in the Church of Geneua Scotland France there bee thousands and ten thousands of the best diuines of the worlde I would the number of them were greater and their learning more excellent then it is I doe not enuie their nombers nor excellēcie but the rewarde of learning taken away and the great decay that hath hapned of late time in those churches doeth both teach vs what is now and what we are to feare and that when the reckonnig of good diuines is made it will come farre short of thousands much shorter of tenne thousands The ignorance want of ministers in France other Consistoriall places is too too lamentable such is the blessing of this countrie that one corner of England is able to match them all eyther in nomber or qualitie of learned men albeit we doe not reason from our owne authoritie The conclusion therefore that this bedlem discourser maketh is too too foppish viz. that Caluin and Beza and Tauergues and Chauueton and Perot and I know not who are more likely to finde out the trueth then the author of the remonstrance and my selfe for no man standeth vpon the authoritie of vs two though the simpler of vs in this cause feareth not T. Cartw. nor W. Trau no nor Beza their patriarke nor all their brags Neither doe I desire any man to beleeue me because I say so this is onely the conclusion of the platformers that beside the authoritie of men can say nothing for themselues But seing the interpretations of the consistoriall faction are fond fantastical singuler and contrary to scriptures to the Iewes histories to all the fathers and counsels yea contrary to all reason good concluding agree badly among thēselues and finally stand vpon the fooleries of the Geneuians their stupide followers vpon their falshood forgerie false allegatiōs abusing of scriptures I do thinke and auow that neither diuinitie nor humaine reason wil permit any man any longer to be abused by them or to giue credit to those that vse them Wherefore cōsidering the weake groundes which the consistoriall gouernement standeth vpon and the forgerie falshood and impudencie whereby it is supported and the disorder and confusion it would worke in the church in learning in lawes in her Maiesties authoritie in her reuenues in euery mans priuate right beside if it were receiued and lastly the seditious lewd courses that some men haue taken to establish the same If some haue bin punished it cannot be denied but that they haue wel deserued it yea that they haue deserued more punishment and lesse fauour For neuer was matter preferred with worse course which I doe not speake for that I would haue either the disciplinarians faultes or penalties aggrauated for the faults are grieuous in ough already and the punishment I referre to our superiors but least any should surmise they are wronged or that the lawes are rigorous or that the proceedings of her Maiestie and officers against them are iniurious For further declaration whereof I haue thought good not onely to answere the vaine cauils of the petitioner against the proceedings of
Iudges and their sentence pronounced against Vdal but also to maintaine and iustifie their vpright and good dealing therein It may seeme strange that lawe should not haue strength sufficient to defend it selfe against the malice of these men But seeing the vigour thereof is either dulled or abated and men suffered to declaime against Iudges lawes let vs assay whether with reason argument we can defend lawe A matter albeit hard where the readers are such as repugne against lawe and are led forth without reason yet very easie to be effected where those that shall iudge vnderstand both lawe and reason vpon confidence therefore of indifferent discrete and wise mens iudgement I commend this chapter folowing to thy reading CAP. 3. That the proceeding against Iohn Vdall was iust and lawful and that the plat formers are iustly charged with breach of diuers lawes and guiltie of faction sedition and diuers other crimes notwithstanding the exceptions in that behalfe brought by the petitioner or others against the lawes and Iudges I Would not haue thought that any had bene so lewde as publikely to condemne Iudges of iniustice or so foolish as to oppose themselues against the execution of iustice had not this lewde libell declared the platformers to be of a strange humor and malcontent both with Iudges and lawes By these I doe see that it sorteth wel that men that desire innouation shoulde speake against lawes that such as doe liue in disorder and are voyde of reason should speake against Iustice reason Iohn Vdall a man vtterly vnlearned and very factious was as you haue heard condemned vpon the statute of 23 Eliz. 2 And for diuers other disorders mentioned in the inditement That it was iustly equally done the greatnes of the offence being faction and sedition the sincere and vpright dealing of those honorable persons that then were Iudges the allowance of others the most reuerend and learned Iudges in the land resoluing on the case the indifferencie of the Iurie the clemencie of her Maiesties gouernement the witnesses and proofes the fauour offered to the prisoner the obstinacie of the partie the testimonie of all that was present can declare Against all these a certaine quidam libeller lately distracted of his wittes and yet not well recouered taketh on him to argue boldly malapertly yea very loosely and foolishly But his malapert saucie dealing I leaue to gouernours to be considered his loose and foolish dispute I doubt not to make manifest to all that shall reade this discourse His first exception against the sentence pronounced against Vdal is For that he diffamed not her Maiestie which the law prouided for but Bishops that are no parte of her Maiesties body politike nor any of the three estates of this realme wherein he doeth not onely deny thinges true and affirme things false but also talke of lawe like a stranger ignorant in lawe and alledge an impertinent and not concludent matter That he diffamed her Maiestie appeared at the time of his triall by his writings and out of his seditious sermons and speeches proued by diuers witnesses and cannot now be called in question seing he that speaketh against her Maiesties supreme gouernement in ecclesiasticall causes her lawes her proceedings and all those ecclesiasticall officers which rule vnder her as Iohn Vdall and his felowes vse to doe diffameth her Maiestie yea and that much more then if he should touch her priuate person for that concerneth her gouernement and therein is she touched especially as a prince and her princely authoritie maiestie disgraced And therefore seeing that is the common case of all the puritane faction all they that write for their pure gouernement against this state are diffamers of her Maiesties princely dignitie Secondly hee denieth the Bishops to be one of the three estates of Parliament and the Cleargie to be one of the three estates of the Realme contrarie to the reckonning of this Realme and common speach and actes of parliament whose common stile is the Lordes spirituall and temporall and commons of the realme contrarie to the vse of the French from whence wee had the 1 I assemblee destroys estats viz. le elergè la noblesse cominautè worde and which call the parliament the assemble of the three estates and contrarie to the reckonning of all Christendome that deuide the realme into the ecclesiasticall state nobilitie commons yea contrarie to Christianitie For who will recken the estate without mention of religion but such as seeke nothing but their cause and profite without consideration of religion in the actes of parliament made at Edingburgh anno 1584 these wordes are often repeated His maiestie and the three estates And againe Our souereigne Lord and his three estates in this present parliament The heathens reckened but two estates to wit the 2 Senatum plebem nobilitie and commons Christians euer reckoned the ecclesiastical state one neither doeth any lawyer say contrarie 2 P. anno 36 37. h. 8. f. 60. In a certaine report of Iudge Dyer we reade that one certaine lawyer is of opinion for reason he bringeth none that the parliament consisteth of three partes the Prince the Lords the commons but we reason of the parliament considered as a bodie of it selfe beside the prince as it is in commō speach considered for so we say the king in his parliament assembled at Westminster or the king to the parliamēt or parliamēt to the king In which kindes of speach if you make the king a part of the parliamēt you make the prince to treat with himselfe which cannot be Besides that you iumble the lords spiritual temporal together make but one state of them which is cōtrarie to cōmon speach Last of all you make the prince that is head equal with the partes and make others as good as him which is the endeuour of this libeller and therfore I say that the prince is head of that body that consisteth of three estates viz. the lordes spirituall temporal commons which cōcurring make lawes to binde the realme neither is it true that the bishops by law may be excluded out of parliamēt For in al parliamēts ordinarily their assent is set downe in tearmes What is done or what hath bene done in 1 Iewel def of the Apol. fact I will not say So the 2 Certeine statutes haue bene made by the king lords spirituall and commons others by the king lordes spirituall and temporall lordes or cōmons may also be excluded but we reason of law And if the bishops may bee excluded thē may the nobilitie be excluded also For the lords consist part of bishops part of temporal lords both haue equal right That the bishops cannot be excluded by right appeareth by the 3 Throughout all statutes lawes and customes of this land Sometime they departed because they would not be at iudgement of life or member which they supposed to be contarie
al these mens deuises be nought worth how litle is the rest thereof to bee valued sure if that which themselues confesse bee not sufferable the rest must needs be vntollerable which if the petitioner know not he is but a nouice in his owne cause and knoweth litle or nothing if he knew he is very impudent that dare defend such maner of persons They openly professe and acknowledg that they bee sinnefull men Petitioner A great matter Answere for albeit they shoulde neyther professe nor confesse so much yet woulde the same appeare but too too euidently In doctrine their leud heretical opinions In maners their pride malice crueltie couetousnesse vsury gluttonie and chamber cheare which they call fasting and colour with tearmes of godly exercises doe notoriously conuince them neither do I yet tell all for other matters I haue thought good to keepe for an ariere bāquet for that I would not haue the libeller surfet which he would percase doe if too much were set before him at once They call not themselues puritanes Petitioner Vntruth Answere for both Martin this petitioner calleth his 1 Pag. 83. consorts puritanes yea and others more honest men then eyther of the two which wee are rather to beleeue then the petitioner call them so and that rightly for commonly they appropriate vnto themselues the name of the saints of godly brethren and such like and account and call others that be not of their faction 2 Martins hay any work and his minerals prophane They esteeme also the 3 T. C. eldership a pure gouernment and other corrupt and T. Cartw. calleth his cause the cause of sincerity why then are they not iustly called puritanes percase they wil answere that they are impure filthie fellowes which in deed is true for their puritie neither consisteth in life nor doctrine for none therein can be lesse pure vnlesse it be in bare conceit but in outward shewes false semblant vaine protestations of reformation gogling of eyes and painted hypocrisie this excuse therefore that they doe not call themselues puritanes were it true yet is it vnsufficient seeing they take vpon themselues to be more pure then others as did the puritanes of old time for we may not thinke that the Cathari or Nouatians accounted themselues without sinne but were called puritanes for seuering themselues from others which they accounted lesse pure then themselues They do absolutely yeeld and subscribe to the Articles of Christian faith Petitioner and doctrine professed in the Church of England And therfore offend not against the statute made 23. of Elizabeth c. 12. concerning that purpose This is a palpable vntrueth Answere for both doe they put out certaine articles and adde others vnto the Apostles Creede And T. C. and Fenner confound person and essence in the Deitie and make the sonne to proceede from God the Father The article concerning bishoppes and homilies and Ecclesiasticall gouernement they vtterly denie and therefore are both schismatikes and heretikes and offend against that statute most directly and denie it shamefully and cauill most absurdly for where the Parliament calleth all the booke and the pointes therein conteined Articles of Religion These subscribe onely to the Articles of Faith and Sacraments Expounding faith strictly and discharging thēselues easilie and expounding statutes contrarie to the opinion of Iudges Call you this consistoriall interpretation They giue to her Maiestie all that power Petitioner that is recognised to be in her highnes by the othe of supremacie as it is by her Maiestie expounded and therefore be no traytors How can this be Answere seeing they deny her power to nominate bishops to make ecclesiasticall lawes to determine ecclesiasticall causes or to delegate others to heare and determine them and take away the last appeale and cognition from her and giue her not any tenths or subsidies how I say may this be seeing they take away both her ecclesiasticall authoritie and her reuennues and giue this power partly to Elderships partly to Synodes partly to Deacons new found creatures And therefore albeit they take the othe of supremacie yet they deny her supreme power vnder colour of the interpretation of the iniunction which abridgeth not her power in cases expressed Beware therefore Libeller and touch this string no more for it soundeth but badly in all loyall subiects eares They professe all obedience to the Lordes of the counsell Petitioner the Iudges and ciuil Magistrates and therefore be not Anabaptistes He saith they professe all obedience Answere but if he would haue excused his clyents he should haue said they performe it for the Iesuites doe in termes professe obedience yet none more factious this is a point that doeth neerely touch his cause and would haue required more diligence in clearing of it For whatsoeuer they professe in this petition both their doctrine and behauiour is contrarie They set the subiectes against the prince as hath bene shewed and haue wilfully oppugned all her Maiesties ecclesiastical lawes they vse her with bitter termes Martin saith her Maiestie is 1 Epist p. 10. 53. seduced and that God 2 Hay any worke alloweth not her gouernement and that she biddeth 1 Ibidem battell to God They teach that Ministers ought 2 Regist p. 48. not to obey the prince when he prescribeth ceremonies and fashions of apparell They accuse her maiestie eyther of ignorance being abused or vnthankefulnes to God and negligence 3 Motion with submission pap 41. in her duetie They resemble her to 4 Gilbie Ieroboam Achab Iehoram and other wicked princes They that wrote the 5 2. Admonit Admonition acuse the high court of parliament of iniquitie affirme that it shall be easier for Sodom and Gomorrha then that court and calleth the Lords politike Machiauels Penrie accuseth 6 Supplication them of betraying God and his kingdome and prophecieth of the Spaniardes to come and wast the land They affirme That our counsell 7 Epistle before reformation no enemie may truely be said to delight in iniurie and violent oppression of Gods saintes And that the Lordes cannot possibly bee said to deale in 8 Ibidem matters of Iustice They charge them with maintenance of impietie and say that with 9 Ibidem Pilate they crucifie Christ. They affirme that the Magistrates and Ministers haue walked hand in hand in the contempt of true religion They call the Iudges wicked lawyers and Atheists Vpon ecclesiasticall 10 Vdals dialogue and Martins Epist gouernours they raile most impudently calling them robbers wolues simoniakes persecutors and such like And therefore if they bee not accompted Anabaptists they haue the more wrong seeing in all disobedience and vnciuill reproches they passe the Anabaptists This is the onely difference that Anabaptistes reuell against all Magistrates these against such especially as withstand their rebellious deseignements They holde it lawfull before
forger be packing that without authoritie maketh out new commissions and new lawes Their desire is that euery congregation c. might haue one Petitioner or two sufficient teachers c. faithfully labouring in the worde of God or doctrine If their congregations be as great as shires Answere two would be too litle for euery such congregation and besides that the course that is alreadie taken for preachers is better then they can deuise any For now in diuers shires there bee hundreds of preachers distinguished in parishes If euery parish bee a sufficient congregation as in deede it is how shall two bee maintained in euery parish where as nowe not euery tenth parish with the liuing that belongeth to the Church is able to maintaine one preacher Doth he thinke men wil enlarge their liuing If he doe he doth but dreame And as for the deuises of him that cogged vs forth the motion with submission sounding an alarme to the sacrilegious spoyle of the Church they would bee the ouerthrowe rather of learning then the maintenance of the ministerie for other great birds gape for that pray As for these poore dawes when they haue made way for others they may go picke wormes for any part they can get thereof themselues when Abbeyes were ouerthrowen 1 That appeareth by the preface of the statute concerning that poynt erecting of schooles hospitals and colledges of preachers was pretended but whither the spoyle went wee doe well vnderstand and doe not thinke that there will be other prouision nowe then was then or that men will in spoyling bee more religious now then some were then They woulde haue assisting elders Petitioner c. that should not encroch on the magistrates authoritie and they would haue the most honest and sufficient men togather for the poore and keepe the treasure of the Church The treasurie of the Church woulde bee so thinne Answere if this deuise of elders and lay deacons shoulde take place that they shoulde not neede to take any care for the keeping of the treasurie At Geneua and in the reformed Churches of France as they call them the treasurie is all but one poore almes boxe They neede not feare robbing why then should any that fauoureth the Church like of their beggerly deuise or of assisting elders proctors for the poore that are but new conceits calculated by a glasse of wine vnknowen to scriptures fathers and antiquitie and borne out with sacing and sauour of nought but sacriledge Neyther can his aldermen nor lay deacons bee prooued nor doe they abstaine from encroching vpon the magistrate nor will any such men as hee supposeth take on them the base function of lay deacons and therefore all these desires are nothing but a fardell of foolerie They would haue olde helpers so quallified Petitioner as the Apostle commandeth 1. Tim. 5. Doe they knowe what they would haue Answere Let them shewe eyther commandement in scripture or practise in the primitiue Church or Church of Geneua of their olde widowes and then I woulde hope they had some care or knowledge what they desired if they cannot then I woulde pray some yong helpers to helpe vs away with such old fablers They would haue all these ordeyned in such maner Petitioner and by such persons as the word of God practise of the primitiue Church and moderne Churches doth warrant What if these moderne Churches neyther agree among themselues Answere nor with the worde of God nor primitiue Church will you not then confesse that you require things not coherent and that cannot stand together Looke where you finde any lawles counterfeite lay elders in the ancient Church or where any ordeyned but the bishop looke whether at Geneua there bee consistories in euery parish and what authoritie they haue And see whether Scotland doth not condemne imposition of handes and diuers orders which Geneua alloweth All these deuises cannot stand together and therefore if you had learned any thing in lawe you might well vnderstand that forasmuch as you alledge things contrary your libell and petitions are to bee reiected They desire synodes particuler prouinciall and nationall Petitioner and moderators of them They must shew better reasons Answere or else no man will regarde their desires Oecumenicall synodes and synodes of diuerse nations they exclude and ridiculously distinguish particuler from prouinciall synodes and make particoloured synodes and a mash of lawes fitter for sicke horses then men And by the same they goe about to ouerthrow the ancient gouernement of the Church the lawes of the Realme the prerogatiue and reuenues of the Crowne and to say all in one worde both religion and learning They woulde Petitioner that the partie grieued might appeale from the particuler congregation or synode at the first instance to the magistrate This seemeth to mee a poynt that will hardly bee prooued Answere for the common receiued opinion is contrary Beza doth flatly deny it and others exclude the prince from all iudgement yea and office in ecclesiasticall causes This fellowe therefore is the onely singuler doctor of discipline that giueth cognition of appeales from synodes to the prince But marke I pray you the ridiculous ignorance of this simple fellowe first he would haue the appeale from the synode or particuler congregation in the first instance And yet euery man may see that the first instance was where the cause was first begunne that is in the parish or consistorie and not before the synode Secondly he wil not say that any man may appeale in the last instance for that were too much as hee thinketh so that still running on in the disloyall tunes of puritanes hee taketh from the prince the last cognition and giueth it to his synodes They desire that such people Petitioner as be alreadie capable and willing to liue as becommeth Churches of Christ might liue as they bee commanded by Christ If euery man might liue as he list Answere so hee coloured his pretence with Gods word and Christes commandement there would neyther papist nor other heritike be repressed for euery man maketh religion and Christs commandement a couer for his pretences But gladly would I he should answere me this question whither hee doth thinke that none doe liue as becommeth Churches of Christ but such as haue his dogbolt deuises of elders and their doltish gouernement if hee answere so as here he seemeth then must I tell him that there can be no greater slander of this state or of her Maiestie and the gouernement If not what doth he tell vs here of people capable and willing to liue as becommeth the Churches of Christ as if the people of England were neither capable nor willing so to liue Againe let him tell mee in good sooth whither hee doth beleeue that the consistorie and newe discipline thereto belonging was in deede commaunded by Christ and if hee beleeue it let him shewe the place and the
ouerthrowe of the ministery as too late now the ministers thēselues there begin to feele why should it I say be more lawful there then with vs Article 8 If the bishops publish any Canons or orders to be practised without the royall assent of her Maeistie they should bee fined and imprisoned 25. H. 8. c. 19 yet notwithstanding this statute they publish subscriptions in their prouinces and articles in their Diocesses without any assent of her Highnesse Answere The end of this article is to haue the bishops imprisoned and fined according to the rules of puritane charitie But the meanes and proofes whereby the articulators endeuour to effect it are all too weake For they can neither prooue that they haue published Canons constitutions and prouinciall ordinances without the princes assent nor that they haue done any thing therein against lawe nay albeit in their subscriptions they require nothing but obedience to lawe yet did they not require them without speciall warrant But saith the accuser they publish new subscriptions articles Goodly stuffe As if either subscriptions or articles were canons or constitutions or ordinances or els such as minister priuate articles about matters in ciuill courts could be said to make new lawes It appeareth the man is but a nouice in law that knewe not what is law That he erre not let him vnderstand that the ordinances of discipline made by T.C. and his fellowes were made contrary to this statute And therefore if they desire Iustice to be done let the lawe be executed vpon offenders and let innocents be no more wronged Article 9 Ecclesiasticall officers extort from schoolemasters sometime 7. s. sometime more and make them subscribe both contrary to lawe Answere If they take 7. s. for a licence it is not much I know a petifogger yea a Scriuano that for writing a licence hath taken 7. li. let them therefore both bee punished together according to the seueral qualities of their offence and let all takers and extortioners answere for their extortions I defend them not I excuse them not I fauour them not As for subscriptiō of schoolemasters how can it be misliked seeing it is only for confirmation of law exacted of them least they should instill discontētment schismatical heretical opinions into their schollers minds Done at Geneua Ordon de l'esehole de Geneua as but too many factious and puritane schoolemasters haue done to the great preiudice of this Church and state the more haue they to answere for that haue suffered them and more care ought men to haue that such nurseries of rebellion bee not suffered But what reason hath this pettifogger or the scriuano his suggestor to condemne subscriptions seeing both of them win more by scribling and subscribing then any ecclesiasticall person I know in England Article 10 By the great charter none may bee imprisoned but by the lawfull iudgement of his Peeres or by the law of the land Answere By the lawes of the great charter the priuiledges of the church state ecclesiastical are with most pregnant termes confirmed and yet this faction without regarde either of charters or lawes or honor of the prince that is sworne to maintaine them or of the reputation of the realme that standeth most in maintenance of Gods church religion goeth about to ouerthrow both the ecclesiasticall state and all the customes rights priuiledges of the church if then he think it not lawful to infringe the lawes of Magna Charta what presumption is this that he his companions directly oppugne them on the contrary side he cannot charge any iustly with the breach of lawes let him if he can name any that hath imprisoned any contrary to the lawes of Magnacharta if he cannot why doth he speake of imprisonment to no purpose If he affirme any such matter of bishops he doth them wrong For they imprison none by authority Episcopal If he speake against the high Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical he is to vnderstand that diuers of them being of the most honorable persons and Iudges in the land they will not doe any thing against law Nor doe they commit any but contumacious offenders whom no lawe may spare That they punish men for not swearing vainely is a vaine lye To say that an othe offered by a magistrate is vaine is both disloyaltie and Anabaptistrie But all this rigour is clemencie in respect of the consistoriall proceedings For there men are censured by opinion and ministers disgraced vpon suspicion and Caluine put a syndicke and diuers chiefe men of Geneua to their oathe to answere whether they had bene daunsing at widow Baltazars house and after that remooued diuers of them from their places he that liketh these orders must needes commend ours Article 11 By the common lawe a man shall not be examined vpon his othe in matters that sound to his reproch Crompton 182. Answere Cromptons worde is no measure of lawe The contrarie hereof is lawe by the opinion of the most learned Iudges in England It is the practise of the court of Chancerie in the court of the coūcel of the marches principalitie of Wales in the court of Starrechamber whereas the parties are examined vpon their othes vpon periuries forgeries and many other misdemeanors Suppose it be at the instance of parties which notwithstanding is not alwayes yet it appeareth that othes to discouer things reprochfull to a mans selfe bee lawfull and very common and most necessarie And a simple lawyer was he that vnderstood not so much Likewise in other courtes of recorde at Westminster the iudges by corporall othe examine any person whome they haue cause to suspect to haue dealt lewdly about any writte returne entrie of rule such like matters By the statute of inquisitiō 1 Stat. de Exon de Inquisit super Coronat vpon Coroners the enquirors shall make the Bailiffes sweare that they shall conceale nothing no though it be penall to them Masters of shippes are to bee put to answere on their othes vpon the statute of money 9. Edw. 3. c. 9. Whether they haue committed any fraude So likewise they that are charged vpon the statute 2 8. Edw. 4. c. 2. of liueries must answere the bill vpon their othe though the matter be penall The same is apparant by the statute of wines 24. H. 8. c. 2. of banckrupts 34. H. 8. c. 4. by the statute of supremacie by the statute of Fugitiues 13. Eliz. c. 3. In appeales at the Common lawe the defendant before battell is driuen to 3 Stanf. Pleas of the crowne lib. 3. c. 14. sweare A Iuror departing from his companie was examined on his othe whether he had talked with the defendant yet if he had confessed it the same had bene penall M. 34. Edw. 3. fol. 3. In an action of formedon couin being found by othe in the defendant hee was punished by the Iudges discretion T. 7. H. 4. fol. 19. The othe of supremacie may be giuen
mouthed Libellers and enemies of the Ministerie professed doe call honest men it is not materiall I know none marieth but such as haue allowance sufficient of their choyce If they haue not let the offenders be corrected and not innocents be disgraced for others offence why they should be called forward I know not seing none is so forward in marrying as the Puritan sort of whom I knowe none that hath the gift of continencie but would they cease to disgrace others I could for my part be contēt they should vse their libertie prouided alwayes they make not too great post haste nor without regard and consideration of their future wiues qualities leape into sodaine mischiefe Article 44 The clergie people goe not in their habits and square caps Answere What do the Puritan people forsooth they square it out for the most part in new fashiond conceited apparel are all clad in Satin veluet and costly apparel and braue it like people of a new gouernment some for humility sake goe in flat caps others go like clownes in russet clokes well they may for their religion is a russet religion good for none but russet cotes such as fauour populer gouernment fitting none but our rusticall platformers whose maners are rude vnciuill that men go not more orderly this faction is cause which maketh warre against the ministery and by all meanes seeketh to offer them scorne Article 45 The Bishops Officials allow none to be absent from their owne parish vnlesse they will pay a Marke for a licence yet law suffreth men to heare Sermons other where Answere Law restraineth men to their owne parishes but lust would be gadding abroad to see what is done elswhere for which if any officials graunt licence contrary to lawe there is law to correct them but why this man should be so offended with taking money for licēces I see no cause seing his deare friēds yea himselfe too vseth more taking then giuing and considering that Pettifoggers Scriuanoes such as the authors of this booke seeme to be liue by taking take without licence and contrary both to licence and law and haue wonne more by taking then others by long seruice and for all their pretended hypocrisie will neither spend nor loose commoditie for their puritane cause why men should not be suffered to frequent factious sermons there be diuers causes it is the way to faction sectes heresie and tumults and diuers other disorders Article 46 Songs in Churches should be distinct and modest Answere So they are but the Libellers eares were percase so out of tune that he could not iudge when he heard them for how can his eares be in tune whose wits not long since were in so great discord In the opinion of all wise men that can iudge and haue skill our church musicke is distinct modest and graue and farre passing the discordant tunes of Puritans Article 47 None of the Queenes subiectes should call one another hereticke nor scismaticke but we are so called and Puritans too by certaine Libellers Answere Yea and that very iustly too if you mayntaine this Libell and your newe booke of prayers and their most seditious and hereticall pamphlets of T. C. and others neither are they Libellers in so calling you nor doeth the Iniunction protect factious mates but quiet and good subiects such as you will not shew your selues to be rayling and reuelling at Lawes and gouernours in most shamefull sort and therefore disdayne not to be called by your names nor wonder if you be beaten with your owne weapons Article 48 Bishops and their Chapleyns seldome make a legge at the name of Iesus vnlesse it be at the reading of the Gospell nor remember Iesus but when they lustily sweare by Iesus Answere All Puritans vtterly mislike this bowing at the name of Iesus this semypuritan and demychristian misliketh the omitting of it therein condemning all his companions as contumacious lawbreakers and not proouing any matter against his aduersaries for which both one and other haue cause to mislike him but especially for lying and slaundering of Gouernours wherein hee sheweth his full malice and choler in charging them and want of matter in conuincing them The Puritanes speake nothing without protesting doe you not call that swearing no it is forswearing for when they protest deepest then commonly they dissemble most and performe least yea many of these seeme with the Priscilianites to haue litle regarde of othes as appeareth by their examinations If he knew any of his aduersaries that offendeth in swearing I doubt not but they shoulde heare it Article 49 The Queene accompteth them good subiectes that acknowledge her Maiestie to be sole supreme gouernour ouer all her subiect in all her Dominions The Bishops doe not Answere If nothing els were to bee respected but this poynt then were all lesuites and Seminarie men and other traytors good subiectes for they doubt not to giue her the title of sole supreme Gouernour ouer all her subiects but that she hath authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall lawes and iudge in Ecclesiasticall causes and to appoynt Iudges and officers to iudge therein that no other hath power ouer her Maiestie neither Iesuites nor Puritans will confesse therefore vnlesse they acknowledge all the rest of her Maiesties prerogatiues and shewe more obedience to Lawes then hitherto they haue done they can not so easily scape the notes of disloyaltie Article 50 The Bishops haue not punished offendors against Iniunctions but are onely carefull to vrge subscriptions othes ex officio c. Answere If the Bishops haue not done their dueties why doest not thou make thy selfe party and accuse them they stand vpon their defence why commest thou not foorth in thy likenesse to charge them In the meane while take this answere that offences must first bee knowen and then punished and secondly that bishops haue suffered as fewe knowen offences to escape vnpunished as any other officers thirdly that those offences that tend to the ouerthrowe of the State are most narrowly looked vnto and lastly that he is a lewde mate that doeth picke quarrels with others for not executing those Lawes which himselfe doeth mislike As concerning their vrging of subscriptions and conuenting those that are disobedient to law the Bishops haue offended in nothing more then that they haue not bene more peremptorie in vrging them no State nor Gouernours euer suffered such notorious disloyaltie so long vnpunished Article 51 Bishops take extraordinarily for licences to preache contrarie to their owne aduertisements of licentious Preachers no licence is required Answere Shewe who they bee that take so much and who these licencious Preachers bee or els men will esteeme thee a licencious Libeller for mine owne part I knowe none more licencious then thy selfe and thy consortes which with all impunitie speake against Lawes and take to themselues libertie both to liue and beleeue as they list and for taking surpasse all other takers taking both from Church and
haue more benefices then two with cure if they haue all but those they can keepe doe fall voyde lastly all this which hee draweth out of the Canons is to no purpose for they haue no strength of lawe Article 63 The bishops say that excommunication is a ciuill discommuning and company with excommunicate persons and if our Prelates were examined then were they excommunicate and worse then publicanes and heathen Answere Marke I pray you the intemperate furie of this base companion the honourable Prelates of this land reuerend for their learning yeeres grauitie place this crablouse swaine and paltrie parasite scornefully calleth iolly prelates and in changing scorne into rayling calleth them excommunicate persons yea worse then publicanes and heathen into such a streine of madnes is he entred looke Allen Stapleton other traytors discourses yet shall you find no such scornefull nor spitefull speaches and wherefore doth hee so reuile them forsooth because he supposeth they offend against canons yet neyther doth he prooue any fault nor can he shew that those canons are lawe nor can hee excuse his consorts that notoriously contemne all excommunications nor finally can hee disproue the common distinction of excommunication that one sort is ecclesiasticall the other ciuill and therefore as a furious for rayling without learning or wit against men of so high place hee is rather to bee corrected in Bedlem then refuted with long discourse I doubt not but the consistorie it selfe will bee ashamed of such kinde of dealing and all other reasonable men condemne it why the disciplinarians should talke of excommunication there is no reason forthey commit the same into prophane mens hands and are therein worse then heathen that neuer committed such holy things into so base mens hands This is the summe of all those articles that he hath gathered against the ecclesiasticall state a playne iustification of all their doings for if he could haue said more against them he would not haue spared and charging them with matters eyther tryfling or else vtterly vntrue declareth them to bee innocent himselfe to bee malicious and furious for the summe of all is nothing but a packe of vnruly wordes as Chapplaines Priestes iolly Prelates hangbyes excommunicate persons worse then heathen and publicanes licentious preachers extortioners bribers and such like I could requite him with better and as bitter tearmes but to answere his articles I will onely returne him but these few articles following A BRIEFE COLLECTION OF DIVERS haereticall and strange opinions lewde practises and fond fancies and deuices which certaine factious and light headed persons haue lately coloured and aduanced with glorious titles of discipline and reformation set downe in forme of Articles TH. Cartw. doth call the rules of his new discipline the 1 In the Epistbefore Fenners new diuinitie Axiomes or irrefragable principles of heauenly Canaan whereby he would in sinuate that they are without doubt to be receiued and yet can he not shewe that euer the eldership or the strange gouernement thereof was practised in Canaan vnlesse it were of the Cananites and enemies of Gods Church to the rooting out of Gods people and ouerthrow of the Ministerie 2 The disciplinarians holde that the gouernement of the Eldership is Christes kingdome and that they that withstand the same are enemies to Christ to religion and to Christes kingome and apply these wordes of the Gospel 2 Th. Cartw. in a certeine table Those mine enemies that would not haue me to reigne ouer them bring them and slay them before me Aplaine euidence that if with entreatie they cannot they meane by warres and bloodshed to set vp their kingdome and yet William Hacket their first king was crowned in Cheapeside with an hempen coronet or diademe and his garde and followers dipersed 3 They teach That the Church is onely to be gouerned by Christes lawes And yet are they not able to bring forth one worde for proofe of their consistorie or the partes of it or the office of euery seueral part of it or any part of their gouernment and seeme to rest onely vpon mens bare conceites and fancies contrarie both to scriptures equitie and reason 4 They professe great loyaltie in termes yet doubt not to say that the simplest Consistorie they haue may giue the prince to Satan 5 They take from the magistrate power to make ecclesiasticall lawes for the gouernment of the Church and yet at Geneua they haue no ecclesiasticall lawes but made by the magistrates 6 That authoritie which statutes giue to princes In calling and assembling of Synodes and appointing ecclesiasticall commissioners to heare and determine Ecclesiasticall matters and appointing delegates to represse wrongs offered in Ecclesiasticall courtes they take away and deny the supremacie of the prince very presumptuously 7 They ouerthrowe her Maiesties reuennues and dissolue the office of first fruites and tenthes 8 They deny her all authoritie to nominate Bishops or other officers of the Church and vtterly take away her right of patronage in all ecclesiasticall liuings 9 They dissolue all ecclesiasticall lawes and all those statutes that concerne Bishops or other Ministers or other ecclesiastical liuings person or cause 10 They deny that her Maiestie may pardon and graunt life to any offender Fenneri Theologia whome Moses lawe commandeth to be put to death and binde her to the obseruance of Moses iudiciall lawes 11 They seeke the ruine and ouerthrowe of the whole ecclesiasticall estate by abasing the Ministers of the Church beneath all others and laying infinite burthens vpon them and taking away all rewardes of learning a point which you my masters of the vniuersitie are to looke vnto 12 By ouerthrowing of the Ecclesiasticall state they doe depriue her Maiestie of many thowsands of able and most willing men to doe her seruice and make way to inward faction and forreine inuasion and all manner of heresies and disorders 13 They teach Th Cartw. reply that all magistrates are to licke the dust of the feete of the Eldership 14 They goe about to bring in forreine lawes and forreine and vncouth gouernors 15 They teach that in euery common wealth well gouerned Fenners holy diuinitie there ought some magistrates to be appointed to depose and ouerrule princes if they doe not their dueties like the Spartain Ephori 16 They teach that the prince may not determine any weightie matter Ibidem without the assemblie of the estates 17 They depraue the ecclesiasticall gouernement Martin and religion of this Church and call it antichristian and diuelish 18 They traduce the publike iustice of this land Martin and Epist before reformat no enemie and rayle against the parliament the lordes the Iudges the lawes and whatsoeuer misliketh them 19 They haue confederated themselues together That is euident by theit subscriptions for the ouer throwing of the ecclesiasticall lawes and state and haue subscribed certeine articles for the establishment of new lawes and gouernement 20 Cartwright and
subiectes to reforme religion when princes will not yea rather then faile euen by force of armes 36 Quaere 2 Ibidem pag. 217. 234. 256 258. c. whether Iohn Knoxe and other his adherents grounding thēselues vpon the foresaid opinions cōcerning violent reformation did not by priuate motion without any authoritie put in practise a strange manner of reformation in Scotland and whether our disciplinarians doe not intend such a practise in England and if they doe whether they thinke that this course of theirs and these their rules of discipline will stand with Gods word or good orders 37 Quaere whether Beza was not the author or amplifier or publisher of the booke intituled De iure magistratuum in subditos a booke which ouerthroweth in effect all the authoritie of Christian kings and magistrates and whether the doctrine therein conteined be agreeable to the rules of that discipline which they haue so greatly vrged the same question is demaunded likewise of the booke called Vindiciae contra tyrannos a booke conteining no lesse pernicious matter against the authoritie of princes then the former 38 Quaere 3 Epist to Goodmans booke whether Master Whittingham that affirmed that the doctrine of Goodmans booke printed at Geneua in queene Maries time against the regiment of women and for exciting the subiectes to take armes against their soueraine princes in some cases was approoued to be good and godly by the chiefest men of learning that then were in the citie said therein either truely or Christianlike or schollerlike 39 Quaere whether the English disciplinarians that were at Geneua in Queene Maries time according to the said 1 Goodman pag. 73. 74. sequ and booke of Obedi pag. 99. 103. doctrine then there allowed of taught not that the nobilitie of England ought to reforme religion by force of armes and rather then faile to put the Queene then 2 Goodman pag. 99. 114. 115. sequen reigning to death and whether this point of doctrine be one of the principles of their new discipline and disciplinarian kingdome holden of most and professed of those that liue in free cities and states not subiect to kingly regiment 40 Quaere whether the said disciplinarian ministers and faction did not holde it lawfull according to the said 3 Goodman pag. 196. 87. 34. 35 185. 180 184. c. Geneuian doctrine That if the noble men and other inferiour Magistrates for feare should refuse to reforme religion as is mentioned the rest of the people might doe it in that case themselues and whether this be one of the axiomes of Th. Cartwrightes heauenly Canaan and a decision of their disciplinarian Synodes 41 Quaere whether the saide disciplinarians haue not taught publikely in bookes rather then there should be no reformation such as they wished that any priuate man hauing forsooth some extraordinarie motion or calling like that percase of Hacket might embrewe his handes with the blood of his 4 Goodman pag. 115. 199. 200. of obedience pag. 116. 110. souereigne according to the examples of Phinehes Ahud and such like 42 Quaere whether the reasons alledged by Knoxe and Wollocke against their gouerner and prince were sufficient in lawe for the subiectes to depose a prince 5 Histor of the Church of Scotland pag. 272. 278. or a regent lawfully appointed as they and others their followers did depose the Queene regent of Scotland and whether their allegations and doings are catholike rules of discipline for all times and all Churches 43 Quaere whether by the lawes of their new disciplinarian kingdome it be not as lawfull to depose a king from his seate and crowne for dealing in causes ecclesiasticall which they entend and affirme not to belong vnto him as it was for them of Geneua to depose their Bishop which was also their liege Lorde and prince from his temporall right and liuing for 1 Caluin to Sadolete dealing in causes temporall albeit he was by right of succession the temporall Lorde and owner of that citie and territorie 45 Quaere whether the doctrine conteined in a 2 Declaration anno 1582. Declaration printed in Scotland why certeine persons mere subiectes repaired to the king at Ruthuen one reason of that forcible repaire being for that the king tooke vpon him to deale in causes ecclesiasticall be agreeable to the catholike doctrine of their discipline 46 Quaere whether the practises of certeine ministers in Scotland for the setting vp of their presbyteries by their owne authoritie as they are described in the actes of parliament helde there Anno 1584 and published in print are iustifiable by Gods word and to be helde for generall rules of discipline to be practised in all Churches 47 Quaere whether that be true that is reported in the Chronicles of Scotland which were perused and corrected by Master Randal Master Killigrew and Doctor Hammond concerning an other repaire made to the king of Scors at 3 Chronicle pag. 446 sequent Sterling and whether the proclamation there mentioned and the actions which then happened be agreeable to the doctrine of the disciplinarian kingdome taught euery where or els be but extraordinarie and locall and onely there to be put in practise where there is good opportunitie offered 48 Quaere whether in France other where they doe not contrary to their opinions for violent reformation of religigion by noble men by the people or priuate persons taught for 30. yeeres and vpwards teach now that it is vtterly vnlawfull for any subiect vnder any pretence of any extraordinarie calling so much as once to lift vp a hand against the prince be he tyrant idolator heretike or whatsoeuer and whether all the rest of the rules of this discipline may not as well be varied by time as this point is and what maner of disciplinarian faith this is that is so inconstant and variable and teacheth sometime obedience and sometime rebellion and like the Chamelion changeth haire so often 49 Quaere whether the wise authors of this petition doe not shew themselues to bee of the disciplinarian humour in this behalfe when they thinke it a sufficient answere in the behalfe of Beza Hotoman Buchanan and others that published the doctrine of stirring the subiectes against their princes to say they write so against popish kings and such as they iudged tyrants as if it were lawfull for subiectes to rebell against such as they account tyrants and popish kings and of T.C. let it be enquired whether he allowe this for one of his cananitish lawes of his celestial consistorie 50 Quaere whether 1 Conspiracy for discipline and examinations taken in the Starre Chamber published T. Cartw. and certaine ministers here his disciples haue not entred into the very same course for setting vp the discipline in England which you shal perceiue by the sayd declaration by the acts of parliamēt in Scotland Anno 1584 and by the English Chronicle that the ministers of Scotland
case the synode should determine that he should pay some part whether godly brethren or prophane men should first be payd or else for auoyding of controuersie none at all 91 Quaere of Iohn Penry whether if Moses lawes haue such continuance as they holde in this newe kingdome a bastard that is excluded out of the sanctuarie may notwithstanding intrude without calling into the ministery 92 Quaere of those that make braggs of T. Cartw. great worke against the Rhemists whether there be not many points therein conteined contrary to all the fathers to the faith of this church and all good Diuinitie and why if all bee cleare with him he dare not suffer the same to abide the censures of lerned men and lastly why any should wonder that such thinges should not bee published considering what dangerous effectes doe followe printing of hereticall and schismaticall bookes 93 Quaere if a certaine consistoriall president at Middleburg when a marchant did pursue a certaine seruant of his in lawe for wasting his goods did not threaten to excommunicate him if hee would not desist his pursute and let fall his action and whether the consistory may serue for a sanctuanie for bad men and bankruptes if they professe reformation and whether this maner of discipline dissolue not ciuill contractes and hinder iustice 94 Quaere whether that the Church-aldermen doe not sometimes meddle in domesticall matters betwixt man and wife and hinder the fathers correction of his seruantes or children whether this be not a way to dissolue the bonds of nature that giueth authoritie in this case and whether the discipline that vseth this practise bee not vnciuill and vnnaturall To conclude Quaere if the Put-case had not done his clyents and their cause more good by silence then by this weake and calumnious speaking It were an easie matter to frame infinite Questions of like sort but these may suffice to let the Libeller see his owne folie in charging others when himselfe and his fellowes lye so open besides that I would not weary thee nor disfurnish my selfe of new matter against the next encounter let him article and play the Put-case as oft as hee will hee must not thinke hee shall walke vp and downe without answere or controulment in the meane while Pag. 83. because he appealeth to iudges and craueth iustice to them wee are also content to submit our cause and doe also instantly craue iustice iudge we beseech you all to whom the execution of iustice is committed whether it bee fitting that such as declame against the ancient gouernment of the Church euer knowen to bee in the Church since Christes time against the authority and preheminence of her Maiestie against the lawes of the realme against the proceedings of Iudges and take on them to controll and reuerse the sentences of iudges and seeke the trouble of the realme and maintenance of leud factions destitute of all ground and speake for a gouernement neuer heard of but of late nor that hath confirmation of scriptures or fathers iudge I say whether such intollerable pride arrogancie and disloyalty and those that defend these trecherous dealings and opinions in bookes printed in corners and without names are longer to bee suffered the inconueniences that may growe of these courses I neede not to declare vnto you that are men of iudgement and experience the weakenesse of their cause I haue sufficiently declared Why shoulde you doubt to doe iustice in so cleare a cause and against such factious persons For their doings haue no defence nor their doctrine support beside the bare opinions of Caluin Beza their followers they haue not so much as any groūd of reason no scripture no father no history no law nor example of good gouernmēt nay they haue both scriptures fathers histories lawe and reason against them most euidently and clearely and therfore I say againe let iustice be done if any of the ecclesiastical state haue done against law let them bee punished let not religion and learning suffer for the sinnes of particulars the innocent let them not be disgraced for others offences nor let malice and faction and sacriledge preuayle against lawe and gouernement that which is now their case may be likewise yours if you respect not the cause of men yet consider that it is the cause of religion learning and gouernment and so proceed as you may declare your selues to be men carefull of the aduancement of religion and learning and the maintenance of a peaceable gouernment and God so belsse you as you shew your selues studious of religion learning peace and iustice ⧠An Aduertisement to the Reader WHereas in the former discourse somewhat hath bene said in answere of the Petitioners lewd calumniations concerning the triall of Iohn Vdal and the iudgement not long since pronounced against him which he pretendeth to be disorderlie and iniurious it may be that such as list to cauill at such things as they mislike will take exceptions against the same as if I meant to abase the high authoritie of Iudges or make the proceedings of the highest courtes of Iustice an argument for the rude populasse to dispute of or to subiect the ordinarie trials of law to the controlment or at least canuases of priuate persons Least any should either in this behalfe except against me or enter into any such conceit of me I thought good expresly here to aduertise thee that both my words and meaning are contrary Concerning matters of common Iustice betwixt partie and partie I know that no iudgement is reuersed but by writ of errour and that in matters concerning the Crowne the verdicts of Iurors and sentences of Iudges for the Queene are finall and that the lawe doeth intend that Iudges and Iurors will proceede with that indifferencie and equitie that it will not haue their doings controlled nor examined by priuate persons Neither is it any part of my meaning to call any law in question or controll the doings of so honourable persons as in that fact sate Iudges Nay this is the thing which I doe so much reprehend in the Petitioner and his faction that most saucilie and arrogantly they take vpon them to examine the doings of Princes the actes of Parliament the sentences of Iudges the verdicts of Iuries and all recordes of Iustice Neither is there any companion among them so base but he taketh to himselfe libertie to censure and controll Princes Parliaments Iudges Lawes yea whatsoeuer and whomsoeuer Among others the author of the Petition hath behaued himselfe as presumptuouslie and proudly as the best Ignorance belike maketh him bolde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the rather for that it is ioyned with impudencie What through presumption and what through impudencie he hath taken vpon him contrary to the Iurors verdict and Iudges sentence to prooue that Vdall offended not against that statute of 23. Eliz. cap. 2. whereupon he was condemned This notorious impudencie and presumption I thought good to lay open before mens
Fourthly the precedents of the Anabaptists doe teach vs what an vnbrideled thing the people is where they take the sword to worke reformation with And that if the Anabaptists which condemne warres went about by force to establish their heresies that much more these factious mates cōpounded of diuers sortes of heretikes and schismatikes rebellious persons putting such glory in armes would assuredly haue made a great stirre if they had not bene repressed Fiftly their threatning wordes which God would not suffer them to conceale did bewray their wicked purposes Martin threatneth force against those that maintaine the state The author of the demonstration denounceth great troubles towarde if they may not haue their will and sayeth That the discipline shall come in by a way that shall make all our heartes to ake And another of Martins 1 Mart. se◠whelpes braggeth of a hundred thousand handes and threatneth that they will strike a great stroke in the setting vp of discipline And therefore seeing both by their doctrine and wordes and deedes they doe declare themselues and their meaning In vaine doeth this lunatike scribe babble that they entend no rebellion What should I beleeue wordes when wee may see deedes to the contrarie yea factes openly maintained in writing Adde hereunto the drift of T. Cartwrights Penries Martins bookes to moue a dislike in mens mindes of the present gouernement and nothing will appeare more notorious then the bad meaning of these mutinous libellers But saith the libeller Whereas the aduersaries doe take as a principle that whosoeuer writeth to worke a discontentment in the mindes of the subiects doe entend rebellion that is a most vntrue assertion and sophisticall paralogisme so little doeth hee vnderstand either what is vntrueth or what is a paralogisme for the trueth of the assertion I haue alreadie clearely demonstrated and well doeth it appeare that hee vnderstood not his Logike termes Arist elench 1. that maketh one proposition a paralogisme for a paralogisme is a sophisticall syllogisme consisting of diuers propositions but this assertion is neither syllogisme nor sophisticall assertion conteining a very plaine trueth which nowe themselues haue iustified by their actions and alwayes politikes haue taken it as an vndoubted trueth for no man writeth to moue mens mindes to discontentment with the present gouernement but hatcheth in his owne minde the seedes of rebellion First the papistes wrote diuers seditious pamphlets against religion and the state afterwarde they put on armes and rebelled So first came forth Martin and diuers pamphlets of like argument afterwarde rose vp king Hacket the great emperour of the disciplinarian faction and his prophets the onely fault was that their patriarkes were not readie to followe them or could not followe them for the multitude of boyes that gaped and gazed vpon them Secondly he saith they write in an humble loyall and dutifull sort Of which let Cartwrightes Martins Penries bookes beare witnes for pride and spite and disloyaltie I neuer read bookes that matched them Thirdlie Hee would defend his clyents with the example of Christ that discouered many abuses and Peter that stroke off Malchus his eare a seruant or pursiuant as hee saith of the high priestes Percase hee would haue his compagnions to cut off the pursiuants and the Queenes messengers eares yea and head too if they could So little can he cōteine himselfe that in the defence of force and rebellion hee doeth nothing but breathe force and rebellion And is still talking of killing and cutting But the case is vnlike for Christ neuer spake against the lawes these say that we haue an antichristian gouernement Christ condemneth not the office of priestes these condeme the office of Bishops and the ecclesiasticall state Christ sought not to erect any new Consistorie or gouernement in dispite of gouernours these doe nothing else Peter strake off Malchus eare which Christ healed these would cut mens throates for to haue their consistorie and so leaue them In fine these neither are like Christ nor Peter nor good Christians but raile reuell conspire and raise mutinies They doe not speake to the gouernours where they may haue redresse of disorders but mutter in the eares of the people as if they meant to renew a new massacre or make the 1 Vespres Siciliennes Mach. Histor Fiorent lib. 1. Sicilian euensong which was euidently declared by that blasphemous wretch Hacket Neither may it excuse them which the libeller alledgeth That the burgesses of Parliament are thither sent by all the people which cannot vnderstand what to desire vnlesse they be taught before For if they meant onely to obteine it by parliament and not by force and faction of the people it had bene sufficiēt to teach her Maiestie or the parliament or any one burgesse for so lawes are framed And as those that speake against the lawes and ciuil gouernment in euery place before the people cannot auoide the name of rebels albeit the same be afterwarde motioned in parliamēt no more can these excuse thēselues of disloyaltie in all places declaiming against the present regiment albeit they woulde haue the same altered by parliament Further hee saith that if they pretended rebellion then they would rise vp and reforme things themselues rather then write bookes to that purpose As if it were not madnesse to rise before they had prepared the peoples mindes to rebellion Nay first a side must be made and then matters must bee executed So that it appeareth that his complices did take the direct way to rebellion and that this course could not bee taken before that men were moued to discontentment by villeinous bookes like those of Martin and his whelpes Fiftly he commendeth his clyents for teaching true obedienee and that with greater Zeale and sinceritie then the bishops But the vanitie of this obiection appeareth by the generall doctrine of their chiefe patriarkes for killing of princes raysing of force and rebellion is simple proofe of true obedience And albeit these latter doe not so directly teach it yet Fenner whome 1 He calleth his doctrine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 caelestis Canaan T. C. doth highly magnifie doth allow inferior Magistrates to bridle and depose princes and giueth authoritie to the people to reforme religion from which opinions not only all bishops but all good subiects are very farre Sixtly hee 2 2 Pag. q. 43. that euer his consortes eyther by writing words or acts went about to make any stirres for the bringing in of their new discipline This man wil percase denie that the sunne giueth light at noone day if it make for the cause of the consistory for the sunne is not more cleare then the leud practises of these sectaries Their doctrine doth wholly tende vnto trouble and rebellion 3 De iure magistratuum in subditos Beza in his booke of the power of magistrates doth arme the subiects against the princes in these causes The author of the booke which is intituled Vindiciae
contra tyrannos whom many affirme to bee Beza or Hotoman doth giue power to the subiectes not onely to resist but also to depose and kill the prince if he oppugne Gods lawes and religion whereof they make their discipline a glorious part That this was the opinion of them of Geneua is apparant by the wordes of 4 In an Epistle sent from Die p. hist scotl Knoxe who not onely allowed the doctrine but put it in fragrant practise in Scotland Neyther may we thinke that our platformers haue dissented from their masters Fenner in his booke of diuinitie which Th. Cartw. so well liketh that hee calleth the doctrine of it the vndubitable rules of heauenly Canaan 5 Theolog. Fen p. 186. saith that in euery common wealth there ought to be by the law of God certaine Ephori or magistrates which ought to haue as in Sparta they had authoritie not onely to ouerrule but also to depose the prince According to their doctrine they haue proceeded in writing speaking doing Martin most shamefully rayleth at the present gouernement and wisheth 1 Epitome of Martin that the parliament woulde bring in the eldership notwithstanding her Maiesties resisting it viz. by a rebellion They made diuerse meetings they inueyghed against the state in their publike and priuate speeches in the ende they procured throughout the Realme certayne subscriptions themselues bragged of a hundred thousande handes In playne tearmes they talked of 2 Wight massacring of their aduersaries And Snape in one of his letters sayeth what will you say if wee ouethrowe the Bishops and that gouernement in one day Their further malice appeareth in the Epistle before their leude demonstrations of discipline when all things were readie out startes Hackets two prophetes to mooue the people to rebellion that what they coulde not haue by intreatie they might winne by treason and rebellion That they intended the deliuerie of certaine factious persons committed to prison and to erect the presbyteries and to suppresse the gouernours and lawes their letters examinations and writings doe declare And yet forsooth this ignorant fellowe holdeth thar they neuer went about to mooue any stirre or rebellion percase hee thought these matters had not bene knowen Seuenthly he obiecteth further that if his clientes intende rebellion then the lawes also and bishops doe intende rebellion for that they expect likewise further reformation But the case is vnlike Good men desire reformation of manners by execution of good lawes and supplie of imperfections They stand for the state they withstand all innouations they proceede orderly These fellowes contrariwise seeke the ouerthrowe of infinite lawes of infinite officers and that by reuelling and disorder they seeke the establishment of an vncouth and vnknowen gouernement by faction and conspiracie odious to all states and good men Neyther can hee shroud his clyents vnder master Nowels authoritie for they want much of his learning and honestie and farre diuerse is that eldership hee meaneth from this packe of elders that they desire Neither because printers sell popish bookes by which some are mooued to discontentment doth it follow that therefore it is lawful to mooue discontentment for neyther may they sell them but to men knowen and licenced without punishment nor are all popish bookes of one sort As for Doctor Percy I thinke he doth not set foorth newe lawes nor newe common wealthes but for ease and introduction of students doth gather a summe of all lawes in force but the libellers furious mates would burne them and vtterly ouerthrow law that we might depend vpon the variable oracles of the presbyterie which he seeketh to erect Eightly hee addeth that many doe maintaine papistes and traitors and yet doe not mooue discontentment vnto which I am content that hee maketh his clyentes like for I doe not knowe any in England that hath procured the discharge of more recusants and that not gratis or more holpen them then certaine capitall and principall puritanes The libeller knoweth whome I meane The exception is friuolous and false for neyther are they to bee allowed that maintayne papistes nor puritanes or that procure their discharge Nor may we thinke but that they that maintaine them meane no good to the state and therefore let the gentle dunse aduise hereafter what hee sayeth and not disgrace his best friendes nor lye to no purpose nor benefite of his cause And finally let him not say our argumentes are nought vnlesse hee reply better hitherto hee hath sweate and sayde nothing yea and when hee hath sweate out all his wit yet can he not answere any one title of our reasons The reason that hee setteth downe is his owne reason and is senceles in deed and proceedeth from a man voyd of wisedome learning and honestie But the same set downe in good tearmes will make him in deede ashamed but not as he saith to answere it but because hee cannot answere it No though he professe to speake for the innocent He should haue sayd in the cause of the dumbe for so are the wordes of T. C. his masters text But his clyentes they haue spoken too much and wish themselues they had bene dumbe Now albeit they be not mute yet he taketh them to be innocent and that in his opinion Is not this a worthy fellow thinke you that opposeth his fond and loose opinion against the euidence of witnesses verdict of the iurie sentence of the iudge But what shoulde we looke for other at these mens handes whose braue consistorie and all their learning standeth on 3 or 4 mens opinions But let vs heare what he bringeth to answere our obiections and for discharge of his clyentes that stand at the barre He sayth that Martin where he threatneth that Doctor Bridges shall haue xx fistes about his eares meaneth that many shall write against him A goodly comment As if puritanes wrote with fists rather then fingers which may very well bee for their writing is seditious rude and vnciuill To prooue that Martin meaneth so he alledgeth first that Martin is no Atheist nor papist But there is great doubt of papisme and flat proofe of atheisme for who scoffeth at religion but Atheists and peruerteth scriptures in scorne but such as beleeue no God Secondly he saith xx is too few to make a rebellion But the patch might vnderstād that one is inough to begin a mutinie And that if D. Bridges shall haue xx fistes against him their meaning is that others shall haue many more about them for I thinke their quarrell is not onely against D. Bridges In the ende the libeller seeing his cause desperate saith that hanging is too good for Martin which I yeelde vnto and assigne the libeller for his paynes to be the executioner And thus the noble Martin viz. I. Penry I. Vd. I. F. all Iohns and I. Thr. that all concurred in making of Martin must by sentence of the libeller if they had any euill purpose goe to the gybet to feede Rauens That