plaied at dice neuer so much The Popes would needes make 〈◊〉 the realme triâ—utary to them Apolog. Ergo 〈◊〉 most iustly haue forsaken them It is not for Diuines to alleage anâ— such temporal cause Confut. â—49 of mony mater 〈◊〉 their defence in departiÌ„g froÌ„ the churcâ—â— For seeing that the Popes Authority â—â—meth froÌ„ God what discharge of my 〈◊〉 is that to me if he do more than 〈◊〉 shuld by right and Conscience Do noâ— temporal princes somtimes oppresse theiâ— Subiectes and yet continew in their place and authority aboue their subiectsâ— Your Argument therefore and fact is naught And if the argument were true yet haue you no occasion to depart from the See of Rome vnto which in Quene Maries time you were reconciled considering that no tribute was required of you no not so much as the restitution of the Abbey landes The Second Chapter conteining certaine Absurdities of the English Apologie They be not mad at this day Apolog. so many free cities so many Kings so many Princes which haue falleÌ„ away from the seate of Rome and haue rather ioyned themselues to the Gospell of Christ. HOW thinke you then Confut. .16 by coÌ„mon reason May any Protestant say that AL free Cities AL Kinges AL Princes and AL Christen men and womeÌ„ froÌ„ the highest to the lowest were mad in these last ix hundred yeares in which yow disdaine and yet confesse the Pope to haue ben obeied of all Christendome and him selfe in so saying be nothing madde Or can you reproue your Aduersaries if they be so vnmannerly and hasty in their termes as to call yours so many free Cities c. madde where your selues iudge that all your Forefathers for hundred of yeares together haue bene madde when they all folowe â–ª with one consent Papistrie If it were a synne in the Heluetianâ— to deliuer their own countrie from foreâ— gouernment Apolog. specially wheÌ„ they were 〈◊〉 proudly and tyranniously oppressed yet to burthen vs with other mens faultes or them with the faultes of theire forefathers it is against all right and reason Why then do you obiect against the Catholiques the euill liues and deedes of Popes Confut. 177. Cardinalles Monkes Friers Priestes which may be founde in anie sorte or condition of men after some continuance of tyme and age And why tel you abiding in Englande tales vppon Italy Spayne or other countries of Aloisios Casios Diasios and others to burthen thereby the knowen and auncient Church In tymes past Apolog. where the first Christians our forefathers in making their prayers to God did tourne them selues towardes the Easte there were that sayed they worshipped the Sunne and reckened it as God And you Confut. .191 to proue your selues the sweete Sonnes and exacte folowers of Antiquitie haue altered the olde maner and custom of the Catholike Church by charginge your Ministers to praye towardes the sowth and that in the chiefest tyme and place of all your deuotion and Religion If you knew whether to turne your selues after the putting awaye of the olde faith and ceremonies thereof why chose you the south rather than the East And why remembred ye not the first Christians vsage Except notwithstanding the remembrance of it you regarded not what they had don and practised How absurdly then cal you them the first Christians and your forefathers whom ye disdain or be ashamed to folow in the maner of their praying That old Father Augustine denyeth it to be leefull for a monke to spende his tyme slouthfully Apolog. and vnder pretensed holinesse to liue all vpon others And who so thus liueth an olde father Apollonius likeneth him to a theefe See the pity which these men take of the old Fathers Confut. 239. because their sayinges are not regarded and see the pityful absurdity in which themselues are taken whiles they would seeme to alowe the old Fathers S. Augustine liketh not the idlenes of Monkes but ydlenes put away did he not alow the order of them His booke is De opere Monachorum of the labour of Monkes prouing that none of them must so thinke hym selfe addicted to the seruice of God in praying reading or in spirituall exercises that he should not sette his handes to corporal labour And he maketh it not a case of necessitie that euerie Monke must labour but he impugneth theyr sayinges which made a necessitie of it not to labour wyth the bodie for theyr lyuing but to serue God and man by the labour of mynd only as in praying preaching and such like Nowe therefore if S. Augustine would haue had the very Order it selfe and profession of Monkes destroyed he should haue made short and saied not that such monks as wold hold the opinioÌ„ that they should not labour bodily ought to be sette therevnto but simplie and plainly he would haue concluded that all Munkerie should be taken away And then how could he make a whole Booke De opere Monachorum of the labour of Monkes except he would find some what where nothing is and build a house without labourers But you whom the idlenes of Monkes offendeth and the neglecting of the old Fathers orders shew to vs I pray you your refourmed Monasteries Let Heretikes shevv their monasteries And if your factes haue declared before and yet hytherto your rayling tongues can testifie that ye hate the verie Order and Rule of Monkes nor would abide a laboriouse and a vertuous Monke in your companie how vnsensiblie doe you confesse the olde Fathers to haue spoken againste idle Monkes whereby they signifie no abhomination to be in the Order it selfe your selues allwayes so mockingly and spitefully handeling not distinctly idle Monkes but without all addition Monkes As maye appeare by Iohn Foxes no litle booke of Actes and MonumeÌ„ts to name one for all and by your great muse in the next sentence folowing these words of which I speake where you wote not whether to name them droues or heardes of Monks as though no other title might be geuen vnto them besides that which is proper for brute beastes Concerning the old Father Apollonius if idle Monkes be theeues what call you them which doe robb and spoile not only the idle but the laborious and holy Monkes And robbe them not of their house land and goodes only but of their fame and estimation and robbe againe not only the Monkes but the iust and true owners of such goodes as were bestowed vpon Monasteries But put the case al Monks had bene theeues He that robbeth a theefe is he not him selfe a theefe And if by stelth a true mans landes be taken from him should it not returne in conscience vnto him againe if truth and Iustice were sought for and not gaine or priuate lust How well therefore your Procedinges agree with truth and honestie Apolog. lette it be iudged by the spoyle of Monkes and Monasteries The old Councell at Carthage commaunded nothing to be readde in Christ hys Congregation
by the name Apolog. of the highest Prelate the vniuersall Bishoppe or the head of the Churche S. Hierome ad Damasum Con. 247 The Councel of ChalcedoÌ„ â–ª and Victor de persequutione Vandalica these haue geauen the for sayd titles vnto the Bishoop of Rome Which of them euer sayd that both the swordes were committed to you Apolog. S. Bernard saiteth it lib. 4. de consideratione ad Eugenium Con. 247 Whiche of them euer sayed that you haue an Authority to cal Councels Apolog. There folowe a broune dosen moe of such which of them Con. 248 Which either nede no aunswer because the Catholik Church hath no suche Articles as you aske question of Or because it is not bound to answer euerie gentleman controllers busie questions although it be able either by expresse Authoritie or els by necessarie consequence to declare good and sufficieÌ„t cause and reason for euery thing that it aloweth But touching this present question Socrates Hist. Tripart lib. 4. ca. 9. doth plainely testifie against you What one error haue they amended From what kind of Idolatry haue they reclaimed the people Apolog. Here is a suspicioÌ„ reised of more thaÌ„ one error Con. 291. aÌ„d of more thaÌ„ one kind of Idolatry to be in the church and ther is no ê“batioÌ„ annexed to ê“ue that which is sayd But herein your bliÌ„dnes aÌ„d ignoraÌ„ce doth vtter it self that ye know not what is truth aÌ„d right worshippiÌ„g of God which obiect errors aÌ„d Idolatry to th'church of God in which church the techer of truth th' holy Ghost Ioan. 14â— is alwaies presideÌ„t and shal be vnto the worlds end Again if you coÌ„sider what hath ben don of late in general couÌ„cels aÌ„d what is don daily both by pÌ„ching aÌ„d writing against euil life and heresy you can not iustly find fault with the heades of the Churche as though they had no regard what the people did beleue and folowe Then further I say if you willo biect ignorance vnto the Catholykes that they knowe not what is true Religion then doth it remaine that you tel your owne mindes and answer theyr Confutations and Replies Before which tyme to insulte vpon them and to crowe out a lowde from what kinde of Idolatrie haue they reclaimed the people is to triumphe before the victorie and to goe merelie awaie with the sentence whiles the mater is a hearing yet in the consistorie But if you obiecte this crime to the Catholikes that they knowe wel inough what Idolatrie is and see the kindes of it and yet reclaime the people from no kind thereof this trulie is so heighnous and so vile a fault that ye shoulde haue euidentlie proued it before ye had so artificiallie concluded it For a plaine answere to whiche fowle suspition let any reasonable maÌ„ be iudge whether it be lykelie and possible that they which with great paines and daunger of bodie haue prouided verie Idolatours in deede to be conuerted vnto our faith would wittingly suffer an Idolatry to be at home before theyr eies aÌ„d yet not take a litle paine to opeÌ„ theyr mouth but once against it The FraÌ„ciscans and they of the societie of Ihesu haue and dâ—e take exceding greate paines about the barbarous people in the East and Weast India and with hazard of theyr temporal lyfe they venter to bring the Infidels to the knowledge of the life euerlasting Therefore surely it is bysides al reason and likelyhod that of so manie of the same order and profession as liue here in Europe emong vs no one should be fouÌ„d so honest so hardy or so faithful as to reclaime the people from theyr Idolatrie if anie were in them at all Why doe they so vncourteously or with such spite Apolog. leaue Princes out as though they were not either Christen meÌ„ or els could not iudge will not haue theÌ„ made acquainted with the cause of Christian Religion nor vnderstand the State of theyr owne Churches And why doe you so openly and so licentiously râ—yse a fowle suspition Con. 297 against the Cleargie where no cause is The teÌ„poral princes are solemly warned before of the general councel when soâ—uer it is to be kept Theyr Legats haue honorable and meete places for them in the Couâ—cel house that they may not be ignorant of that which is done in debating and examining the cause of religioÌ„ They be humbly and hartly thanked for theyr helpes and assistance and presence made in the cause of the Churche They be sent home with peace And say you that princes are so lefte out as though they were no Christen men whose Embassadours you maie vnderstand to be interteyned and vsed so honourably What ys the Pope Apolog. I praie you at this daye other than A Monarche Or A Prince Or what be the Cardinals who must be none other nowe but princes and Kinges Sonnes We neuer hearde anie wyse man call Con. 299 the Pope A Monarche But a Prince he is in deede either as the worde Prince maie signifie the Chiefe in all Priestelie function either as it signifieth a man so indued with Temporalties that he maie worthely be a Kinges felow But saie you what other is he than a Monarche or a Prince As who shoulde thinke that he sate imperiallie vnder his clothe of Estate and hearde Embassadours out of all quarters of the world and gaue kingdomes or toke them awaie at his pleasure and after such maters of weight dispatched then that he went to hunting hauking plaieing dauÌ„sing feasting c. as worldely Princes doe For such a thing do the coÌ„moÌ„ people imagine a Monarche or prince to be one that ruleth al and liueth in al pleasure That you therfore may be corrected of your lie aÌ„d the simple Reader of his error I say that the Pope is no Monarche at al. And I confesse boldly that he is a Prince by reason of the Temporall and greate IurisdictioÌ„ which he hath ouer S. Peters patrimonies but as Pius the fifthe that now liueth did answer agreably to his holines and wisdom Licet Princeps sum antiquius tamen Pastoris quà m principis nomen agnosco so to say the like in English I geue you to vnderstand that although the Pope be a prince yet he acknowledgeth and taketh the office of a Pastor to be the more former and principal with him than the Office of a Prince By this office then of a pastour he gouerneth and fâ—deth his flocke he sendeth non residents home to theyr cure he apointeth out Preachers and Bishopes for the new found lands he calleth CouÌ„cels endeth CouÌ„cels wheÌ„ it shal please him he goeth in visitatioÌ„ as this last yere he did through althe parish churches of Rome he excommunicateth such as wil not repent as he doth Courtesanes expelling them bodyly also out of the Citie he succoureth such as wil conuerte for which purpose his predecessor Pius the fourth of blessed memorie built a peculiar Cloister
would haue had him to surrender the Empire And taking his Father prisoner he committed hym to straight custodie without anie motion of the Pope therevnto as with whome also he was at Variance Then as touching the Shearing or thrusting him into A Moâ—asterie or famishing of Henrie the fourth lette hym that made these shamefull lyes shewe his Authour and defende hym selfe Who Apolog. so ilfauouredlie and monstrouslie put the Emperour Frederikes necke vnder hys feete and as thoughe that were not suffyciente added further thys Texte out of the Psalmes Thou shalt goe vppon the Adder and Cockatrice and shalt tread the Lyon and Dragon vnder thy feete Who this should be Conf. 188 your selues can not tell whiche are the onelie mainteiners of the tale For sometymes ye laie it to Innocentius the thyrde sometymes to Innocentius the eyght sometymes to Alexander the thyrde And the fact being so strainge and singular that it coulde not be but notorious yet ye haue so litle certeintie thereof that ye knowe not who should haue done it But the trueth is no graue writer maketh any mention of such behauiour of the Pope The Emperour Theodosius 〈◊〉 as Socraâ—es sayth did not only sit emongs the Bishopes but also ordered the whole arguiâ—g of the cause Here you speake of sitting 〈…〉 as though Thâ—odâ—sius had then ben at some General Councel You speake also of ordering the whole arguing of the cause as though him selfe had ben a moderatour of some disputation The plaine storie is Hist. 〈◊〉 9 ca. 19 Theodosius conâ—erred familiarly in his owne palace with the Bishope of Constantinople howe his people might be brought to an vnitie in faith And when the heretikes refused one good way which was to be tried by the testimonies of Auncient Fathers he went an other waie to worke with theÌ„ whiche was that eche of them should bring furthe in writing that which he had to say for his faith Which being don the Emperour read ouer theyr writings aÌ„d reiected the ArriaÌ„s MacedoniaÌ„s and Eunomians heresies and embraced and commended the iudgement of the Nicene Councel touching the consubstantiality of God the Sonne with his Father So that this historie serueth nothing to the mater of a General Councel nor proueth that an Emperour may sit there as Iudge emong the Bishops nor that Theodosius did vpon his owne heade and as Supreme Gouernour that which Socrates here reporteth of him but that he folowed the Councel of his Bishope Nectarius and the former decrees of the Nicene Councel Iustinian put doun from theyr Papal Throne two Popes Apolog. Syluerius and Vigilius notwithstaÌ„ding thei were Peters successours and Christes Uicars No Conf. 3. it was not Iustinian but his Ladie Theodora which was a great mainteiner of heretikes and when women theyr husbandes being alyue be so ferueÌ„t in sprite that they must haue such Popes as please them selues no wounder if Peters Successours be shamefullie handeled Charles the greate being Emperour held a prouincial Councel in Germanie Apolog. for putting awaye Images contrary to the second Councel at Nice This is so false Confut. 327 that the contrarie is most true For whereas the heretikes named Imagebreakers Abbas Vrsper Anselm Ryd PeÌ„cerus Carion Pantalâ—o had holden a CouÌ„cel at Constantinople for abrogating of Images directly against this impietie of theyrs Pope Adrian and Charles the greate held an other Councell at Frankeford in Germanie So muche it lacketh that Charles the greate should be a fauourer of Imagebreakers The fourth Chapiter conteinyng the lies made vpon the Auncient Fathers and other VVriters S. Augustin Apolog. wheÌ„ he disputed against PetiliaÌ„ an heretik of the side of the Donatistes let not these words Aug. de vnitate Eccl. c 30 quod he be heard betwen vs I say or you say let vs rather speake in this wise thus sayth the Lord there let vs seeke the Church there let vs boult out the cause THe question betwene S. Augustine aÌ„d the Donatistes was this Conf. 29. wher the Church should be Now to proue that the Church was not with the Catholiks the Donatistes were busie alwaies in rehersing how the Catholikes had burned the holie bokes aÌ„d had offred incense to Idols and had persequuted InnoceÌ„tes like as the protestaÌ„tes in these daies wheÌ„ the questioÌ„ is of the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome thei vse to make a long tale how such a Pope was a NecromaÌ„cer and such a one a leacheroâ—s man and some other proude and ambitious Now although S. Augustine mighâ— and did also in sundry places say truelyâ— that the obiections of the Donatisteâ— were false Augu. de vnit Eccles ca. 2. IdeÌ„ lib. 2. coÌ„t epist. petil c. 8. and though he might brinâ— furth against them also greater examples of their faults yet considering thaâ— such oiections taken out of the euill life of the one side or the other doe not perteine to the question proponed And seeing that altercation and strife only waâ— mainteined thereby whiles eche partâ— would say â–ª the other lied and would noâ— ceasse to tell what they could one of thâ— other being not credited yet one of thâ— other S. Augustine therefore not desirous to chide but earnest to proue thâ— Churche to be on his side vseth thesâ— wordes De vnit Eccl. c. â— Let vs not heare This I saie or This thou saiest but let vs heare this saieth our Lord â–ª After which wordes these folowe whiche the Apologiâ— should not haue omitted Truly ther bâ— extant our Lordes bookes the authoritie of which we both do agree with al we both beleue we both serue and obey There let vs seeke the Church there vs boult out our cause For the Church it self to proue it selfe by her owne wordes is not conuenient And to credit her at the reporte and coÌ„meÌ„dation of a baser aÌ„d vnworthier witnes then her self is very dishonorable It remaineth therefore that her cause be examined by the Scriptures as whiche haue so great authority and are so generally receiued And truly it is exceading wel prouided of God that in theyr seueral causes the Church sâ—ould declare the scriptures and the scriptures the church And so wheÌ„ any maÌ„ beleueth the church and striueth with me vpon a text of the scripture I would say vnto him let vs haue no more these words I saie or you say but let vs heare rather this saieth the Church On the other side when one beleueth the scriptures as heretikes thinke they do and would reason with me about the Church where it should be I would answer Let not these wordes be hearâ— among vs I say or you say but let vs heare This saith the Scripture Therefore in this principall question betwene the Catholikes and the Donatists which was where the Church should be the best waye was only to appeale to Scriptures Againe the Donatistes admitteâ— the Scriptures but other thinges which S. Augustine alleaged out of laufull recordes either of the
hys Prophetes often and ernestly commaundeth the King c. To wryte out the booke of the Lawe for hym selfe Ye bring this place to proue Conf. 303 that temporal Princes haue as much to doe with Religion as Bishoppes and Priestes For the Kinge saye you muste write out the Lawe Deut. 17. But whie leaue ye out that whiche foloweth accipiens exemplar takynge the Copie of the Priestes of the Trybe of Leuie By which woordes it is clearlie perceyued that it is not in the Kynges handes to meddle with Scriptures but as he receaueth them of his betters in that authoritie the Priestes King Ioas bridled the riot and arrogancie of the Priestes Apol. We finde no such wordes in the text Conf. 307 4. Reg. 12. Iosue receiued coÌ„maundements Apolo specially touching religion We haue readen the whole Chapiter Iosue 1. Confut. .305 and we find no suche specialities there but onelie that he shoulde passe ouer Iordane And diuide the lande of Promise and be of good cumforte and strength with other lyke woordes all to the Temporall Gouernement of the â—eople but of Religion Sacrifice Praying for the people expounding the Law c. no one sentence Yea rather as it appereth in the first setting of him in his office the scripture saieth expressly 〈◊〉 any thing be to be done for this Iosue Eleazar the Priest shal aske counsel 〈◊〉 the Lorde Nu 27. At his worde vndoubtedly at the Priests he shal goe furth and come in c. Which of the two then 〈◊〉 nerer to God aÌ„d worthier by his office He that speaketh himselfe with God or he that heareth God his word by any interpretatour He which geaueth the commaundement or he which must obey it Doe no more so with the scriptures aÌ„d if none shal let you to make your own sense vpon them yet neuer take so much vpon you to put in the text it self which is not of the Scripture And further consider whether this be not to adde and take awaie from the Scripture to make that of the plural nuÌ„ber which is of the singular only To suppresse those wordes which being put in doe dissolue the knoâ— of the question To put that in whiche is not at al in the text To alleage sayinges that can not be found And to misconstrue sentences that are founde And then when you haue considered all this conferre therewith that which ye finde in the Apocalipse of S. Iohn that If any man adde vnto these things Apo vl God shal lay vpon him the plagues that are written in this booke And if anie man diminishe of the wordes of the booke of this prophecy God shal take his part out of the booke of life and out of the holy Citie and from these things which are writteÌ„ in this booke The 7. Chapiter conteining the flat lyes of the Apologie There haue ben wittely procured by the Bishop of Rome certaine persons of eloquence enough Apolog. not vnlcarned neither which should put their helpe to his cause now almost desperate NAme the Pope which hath procured them Confut. 9 Name the Persone which haue ben procured and ye shal either confesse your faultes or stand gyltie for two lyes Proue also that he wylely procured ani meÌ„ to help his cause because this word wylely maketh your lye aÌ„d slauÌ„der more greeuous For either you meane that he did it in dâ—de and that he would not be sene to doe it either that he did it boldly and manifestly but yet vsed a witty and subtil meane vnto it ConcerniÌ„g the first he neded not to be ashamed to defend his cause He might boldly without reproch choose any of the lerned aÌ„d eloqueÌ„t Catholiks for that purpose For the faith which the whole Churche opeÌ„ly coÌ„fesseth â–ª what dishonesty at al is it to coÌ„maund aloud that the best lerned shuld declare it and by declaring of it coÌ„meÌ„d it that wheÌ„ iust cause is geueÌ„ of it it mai be knoweÌ„ for a truth sufficieÌ„tly pued ConcerniÌ„g the second it were a small part of policy to labour by a fancy to perswade the whole world in a falsitie Princes desirous to restrain the gospel sought many wayes Apolog. but preuailed nothing now almost the whole world doth begyn to opeÌ„ their eies to behold yâ— light What place hath your gospel in Spain Conf. 1â— What place in Italy What successe hath your gospel in France WheÌ„ Lady Marie was once proclaimed Queene how preuailed your preachiÌ„g Did ye not flee beyond sea into free Cities And why into those more thaÌ„ into ani other but because ye preuaile not with Princes but such as cal you to their fauour of whoÌ„ yet ther are so few and so weak in al ChristeÌ„dom that in the rekning they make a litle somme And now say you the whole world almost doth begyn to open their eyes A worshipful begining after xvâ— yearis But why say ye not without almost that al the whole world begiÌ„neth to opeÌ„ their eyes You haue a coÌ„science I trow in making a lye and therfore you add almost How much theÌ„ lacketh I pray you If Loâ—aÌ„ Paris Bonony Padua SalamaÌ„ca CoÌ„pluâ—uÌ„ and other great Vniuersities but smal â—ortioÌ„s of the whole if these were lightened by your gospel would ye put out your almost What meane ye by this almoste Perchance all is ouercomed with you sauing Rome itselfe and the small Cities about it Nay haue ye not greate and Princely states as of Florence Vrbine Genua Ferrara Millaine Venice Treuers Mentes Colone Salisburg and the Catholike Cantones And sundrie Countries as Bauarie Sauoy Burgundie Loraine Brabrant Flaunders Holland Artoys Henaut Friseland Guelderland Cleueland Prussia Carinthia And many Ilandes as Sicilia Corsica Sardinia Maltha and the ZelaÌ„ds And many kingdoms as Naples FraÌ„ce Spaine Pole Bohemie Hungary and Portugale and the Empire it selfe which see well enough how darke your gospel is But no matter for these small peeces What say you then to the new Indians which alone are greater than all whom we haue rekened If you lacke but them alone haue you all the world all most No This is so great a lye that â— might turne it backeward and say the whole world almost doth defie your Gospel All theyr trauayle hath in a manner come to naught Apolog. How say you to the late general CouÌ„cel Conf. 15 â–ª which had so woÌ„derful good successe and which is so executed in Rome it selfe that not only the Bishopes but Cardinals also are sent to theyr cures and goe obediently vnto them No bodye driuing it forwarde and without anie wordly helpe King Harry the eygth then is no body with you the Duke of Saxonie Lantgraue of Hesse King Edwarde the sixth the Villaines of Boheme the Hugonites of France c. Al these then are no body On the other syde our cause againste the wil of Emperours If Charles alone had not geuen more to clemencie which ouercommeth most of all noble personages
had in his owne power to pleasure whom he listeth which is nothing so For if we shal consider the acte of the Priest as it is his owne Psonal so doth he according to his deuoute intention not by authoritie but by supplication obtaine a vertue and influence to come frome Christ to them for whom he specially offereth â— But himselfe also being a poore wretche and compassed with infirmitie he neuer learned of the Church so proudly to speake as that I am able to do this by my Masse Againe if it were true and if the Church did so teache that the Priest is able of his own self without asking leaue to make applications of Christes merits which in dede is not so yet to say that he maie applie al the merites of Christes passion is altogeather impossible For whereas there is no proportion betwen a finite thinge and an infinite the Priest which hath a limited Authoritie and such a power as hath an end how can he stretche it to the distributing of all the merites of Christes death whiche are endelesse and infinite Therefore I saie discharge your selues And concerning that absurditie by which you would encrease your readers indignation against our cause saying that we distribute and applye Christes merites when the parties thinke nothing on the mater that is not so vnreasonable as the vnwise brother would thinke it Whereas the praiers of the English congregation if in dede God accepted them maie procure strength in the Lorde vnto the brothers of France or Germanie although they were either a sleping or drinking It is a shameful parte and ful of infidelitie Apolog. that we see euerie where used in the Churches of our Aduersaryes that they wil haue innumerable sortes of mediatours Innumerable Conf. 12â— This is one plaine lye For the Churche knoweth but two the one when the party which commeth in betweene to entreate and make peace maie by equalytie or Authoritie haue to doe with both of whiche sorte Ihesus Christ alone is a mediatour being perfite God nothing inferiour to his Father and perfite Man nothing disdaining a man The other when by waye of requeste onelie and by intercession the freindes and acquaintaunce of both sides speake a good worde and fauorable for the partie distressed vnable by them selues to commmaunde or woorke anie thing but by the fauor and especiall grace of him whiche hath the better Of this sorte are all the Saintes of heauen aâ—d al good men in earth And poore men can not tell to whiche Saynct it were best to turne them first Apolog. Blessing to your hart that you care for the poore emong whom I neuer hard of anie which was in the doubt of whiche you speake But if it be so in anie it maie quickly be told him that he study not loÌ„g about the mater but praie generally in short wordes and say O all ye Saintes of God pray for me What would these men haue saied Apolog. when in al Councels newe ordres new decrees continually were deuised Marie we would haue stoode to the Catholike CouÌ„cels Confut. 186. in which new Credes from the old were neuer made but the old made more plaine by expounding in plainer words the faith that was before Some of the Fryers Apolog. and Monkes put a greate holynes in eating of fyshe and some in eating of hearbes some in wearing of shewes and some wearing of Sandales some goeing in a linen garment and some in wollen If by some ye meane special persons Confut. .143 I can not tel what nor where When ye name them to vs or wil send your charitable letters to them I warrant you they shal be spoken withal But whereas this appertaineth not to the common cause of the Church or the coÌ„trouersie and questioÌ„ betwene vs what Frier Tucke or Don Roger doe thinke priuatly therefore if by the worde one ye meane the whole orders of Friers and MoÌ„kes and make this sense that some orders of Friers put a great holines in fish aÌ„d some in flesh c. Then doe most shamefully and vilie slander them For S. Bernardan Abbate instructeth his Monkes after this sorte Corporum conuersio si sola fuerit Serm. 2. in capitâ— Ieiunij nulla erit that is the conuersion of the bodies if it be nothing but that it is nothing And by conuerâ—ion of the bodies he meaneth as it foloweth in the sermon the shauing of Monkes the coteÌ„ the Rule of theyr fastes and apointed howres of singing And Petrus a Soto the diuinitie Reader in Oxforth in Quene Maries tymes himself being a Dominican Frier and keeping himselfe faithâ—ully within his order yet he made no such accompt of externall thinges as you falsely sclaunder Monkes and Friers to make But as all learned men doe when they write of the true worshipping of God â–ª so he expresly sayth with the Apostle Tract de instâ— Sac. Iect 5. That Corporal exercise is profitable to little but Pietie and deuotioÌ„ is profitable to al thinges â— Tim. 4. And againe Rom. 14 The kingdome of God is not meate and drinke bâ—t Iustice and peace and ioy in the â—olygost Bring you furth now on the 〈◊〉 side that Religious meÌ„ put an holines in such externall ceremonies or rules aâ— you specifie Zuinglians and Lutherans vary not betwixt them selues vpon the principles fouÌ„dations of our ReligioÌ„ â–ª 〈…〉 God Apolog. 1. nor Christ nor the Holygost nor of the meanes to iustification nor yet euerlasting life but Upon one only question which is neither weighty nor greate Neither mistrust we or make any dout at all But they will shortly be agreed They vary about the body of Christ Confut. â— the one confessing a true presence thereof in the Sacrament The other withstanding it and faining Christe to be present by figure onlie This is one Neither in the Sacrament only doe they differ Nicolaus Gallus in the sibus hypo but also in questions of the law of the Ghopel of iustification and of good workes as Nicolaus Gallus a Lutherane protesteth against them Nowe whether the question of Christes presence be weightie or no let him be iudge whiche heareth Christ saying Nisi manducaueritis Ioan. 6. excepte ye eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud ye shal not haue lyfe in you c. This is the third This which foloweth I note not as a lie 〈◊〉 as a sensible and vain foly â–ª for the 〈◊〉 theÌ„selues striuiÌ„g euery day more aÌ„d more th' one against th' other aÌ„d as Amsâ—orphiê° a LutheraÌ„ witnesseth their coÌ„tradictioÌ„s beiÌ„g vnable by any possibility to be made agree togeather How ful of vaine hope are you which haue so litle doubt of theyr concorde that ye trust they will be agreed shortly They haue throweÌ„ vs into prison Apolog. into water into fyer and haue embrued themselues in our bloud not because we were either Adulterers or Robbers or Murtherers
bycause he fansied him not wroÌ„gfully placed Pipine in his rome Chilperike was so good a Prince Confut. that He was commoÌ„ly called stupidus a dolt He was also wholy geuen to belly chere aÌ„d loue of womeÌ„ And therfore the whole realme of Fraunce made ernest sute to the Pope that they might be loosed from theyr othe made vnto him wherby it appereth that the Pope folowed not an only fansy of hys own but the requeste and aduise of a whole Countrie Now as for placing of Pipine wrongfully I knowe not how they could make it probable except he were made kinge against the good willes of the nobility aÌ„d communaltie of Fraunce For whereas euery common wealth is greater thaÌ„ the Prince which gouerneth it and maie depose the same vppon lawfull cause and whereas ryot and doltishnes are causes sufficient so to does as making the prince vnable to gouerne it wel it foloweth coÌ„sequeÌ„tly that if the whole state of FrauÌ„ce deposed Chilperike and erected Pipine ther was not fault coÌ„mittedin so doying He vtterly destroyed the state of the most florishing Citie and commoÌ„ wealth of Florence Apolog. his owne natiue countrie How great words vtterly destroied and Confut. florishing Citie It was neuer more quiet thaÌ„ it is now vnder the Duke For by naturall reason vnder one certaine heade peace is better maintained then in nuÌ„ber of families aÌ„d factioÌ„s be they neuer so smal And by experieÌ„ce they do feele that they haue lesse stur aÌ„d vprising thaÌ„ they haue knowen whereas vnto fourtie 〈◊〉 which they had before aboute the 〈◊〉 place they haue not one as nowe All these were Popes Apolog. all Peters sucesâ—â— all most holy fathers whose seueral â—â—oordes we must take to be as good as 〈◊〉 Ghospels Who told ye so Con. 184 Wher find ye it so Who 〈◊〉 taught you to lie so For not only the â—opes words but also his priuat writings 〈◊〉 taken to be subiect vnto errours and â—gnorance as other mens doings are but â—ot his definitiue sentence vpon any maâ—â—er to be generallie beleued The selfe same meÌ„ which haue led theyr 〈◊〉 at Rome Apolog. in yâ— holy city in the face of the most holy father who also were able to se 〈◊〉 theyr secrets at no time departed froÌ„ 〈◊〉 catholike faith as for exaÌ„ple LaureÌ„tius â—alla Marcilius Patauinus Frauncis â—etrarke Hierom Sauanorola Abbote 〈◊〉 â—oachim Baptist of Mantua before al â—hese Bernard the Abbat haue many a time much coÌ„plained of it geauing yâ— world 〈◊〉 â—lso somtime to vnderstand that the Biâ—hop of Rome him selfe by your leaue 〈◊〉 verie Antichriste Fyue lyes I will note at the leaste 〈◊〉 this one sentence Confut. 207. First of al these whoÌ„ ye name no one 〈◊〉 did lead his lyfe in Rome but Laurence Valla. Secondly they were not well able to see the Popes secretes whiche lyued 〈◊〉 in the Citie with him familiarly Thirdly concerning your lye that 〈◊〉 no tyme they departed from the Catholike faith Laurentius Valla was 〈◊〉 fangled Marcilius was a plain heretike â–ª Abbate Ioachim vttered heresie which was condemned but submitting himselâ— to the Catholike Churche he escaped foâ— his owne person Fourthely of the faultes of Rome 〈◊〉 Bernard hath complained but neuer 〈◊〉 the Popes tyranny and barbarous prydeâ— Fifthely it was the speciall grace 〈◊〉 Luther and the blindnes or follie of thâ— foresaid persons to geue you to vndeâ—stand that the Pope should be very Anâ—tichrist For the making of which lye 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 wil neuer so much aske our leaue we haue no such Authoritie to geue it vnto â—ou and therefore I praie you quiet your selues and neuer trouble vs more hereafter with such requestes We Apolog. saieth Hosius wil bid away with 〈◊〉 same scriptures c. It behoueth not 〈◊〉 man to be expert in the law scripture 〈◊〉 to be taught of God It is but lost about that a man bestoweth vpon the scriptures For the scripture is a creature â— bare letter This is Hosius saieing This is not Hosius saying Conf. 21â— Nay of set purpose he reherseth it for an heresie to declare how the new Ghospellers of this 〈◊〉 haue proceeded still from naught to worse and are now come some of them to such a diuine spritishnes that they contemne the studie of the Scriptures as a carnall thing and vnprofitable and will not haue anie man vse the testimonie of them But God forbid saieth Hosius that we should euer so much as think these things Hosius de expr ver Dei which belong not to a ChristiaÌ„ man For we hold with S. Hilarius who iudged heresie to come from the vnderstanding not from the scripture Seeing therefore that Hosius hath so expresselie declared him selfe to 〈◊〉 from Zwenkefeldius heresie whichâ— woulde not haue the Scripture to be 〈◊〉 credite what impudencie is it so boldâ—â— lie to chardge him with it as thougâ— it were his opinion to haue the 〈◊〉 put away Yet this so greate impudencie 〈◊〉 howe it shall be maintained For allthough it be perceiued of the Authors 〈◊〉 the Apologie that Hosius wil sone 〈◊〉 against them and saie that they doe 〈◊〉 wronge yet rather than they will 〈◊〉 seeme to eate theyr woorde and to 〈◊〉 vnable to defende that Note the stomach whiche 〈◊〉 had once sayed in the firste edition 〈◊〉 the Apologie they increase theyr 〈◊〉 and shame in the second edition 〈◊〉 whereas in conscience they should haue cried Hosius mercie and 〈◊〉 confessed theyr mistaking of him which had bene a token of good natures and such as especially should be in the professours of an holy Ghospel yet in theyr seconde Edition and further deliberation vppon the mater they not only doe not reuoke theyr slaunder but make Argumentes to defende it And firste to that whiche Hosius mighte truelie saie vnto them that they doe hym wronge and that the woordes whiche they obiecte againste hym are not hys owne woordes but the woordes of the Heretike Zwenkefeldius they aunswere But howe then Apolog. In the second edition if Zwenkefeldius make Exclamations on the other syde and saye that the same verie woordes are not hys but Hosius owne wordes Confut. If he will be so shamelesse as to obiecte that vnto Hosius as Hosius owne for whiche Hosius expressely reproueth him Or if he wil be so folish as to professe that opinion whiche he wil put await from himself when he is chalenged of it he is a meete witnes for the Apologie But howe is it likely and probable that ZweÌ„kefeldius might so doe It foloweth For tel me Apolog. where hath Zwenkfeldius euer writen them What if so much be not tolde you Confut. will it folowe that because you knowe not where to finde them in Zwengelfeldius therefore they are not in him at all Or because it is not told you wher ZweÌ„kfeldius hath writeÌ„ theÌ„ therfore Hosius doth alow them For herein is the pointe whether
As doeth appeare by the chiefe Apostles of the new Ghospell Luther Oecolampadius Peter Martir Bale Barcâ—let Barlowe Scorie c. Which departed out of the Churche on theyr owne heade and perill and liued not well in the Churche whyles they were interteined in it And so although some faithlesse and wretched fellowes might be proued to haue sold theyr Masses in the Churche that conuinceth them to be naught and not that the Churche consenteth vnto it We verelye Apolog. because we knowe the shedding of Christe hys Bloud vppon the Crosse to be the onelie Sacrifice are well content with it alone and looke for none other And forasmuche as yt was to be offered but once we commauÌ„d it not to be renewed againe You woulde I perceaue haue the Catholikes compted exceading couetous and insatiable Conf. 123. as thoughe they shoulde thinke the shedding of Christe his Bloud vppon the Crosse to be vnsufficiente to saluation But yet howe thinke you Notwithstanding ye are so well content as ye saye with Christe his Passion alone doe ye not thinke it necessarie for you to obey the Churche to obey your Prince to absteine from lying from adultery from Simonie c If besides the passion of Christ you must also keepe the Commaundementes and doe as manie good workes as ye may then as you are content so are we And you are no wiser by this rekening than other poore folkes are But if Christ his Passion doth so content you that ye seeke not to suffer also with him after your degree in a certaine proportion then doth it plainlie appeare that you are quickly satisfied And in such sorte to be well content is for suche as neuer thincke to ascend after Christ and are verie vnlike vnto him Why hath he hys Legates as much to saie as moste suttle spyes lying in wayte in all Kinges Courtes Apolog. Councelles and priuie chambres Why doth he when he lyst sette Christian Princes one against an other And at his owne pleasure trouble the whole world with debate and discord First Con. 178 let it be proued that the Pope doth it and then afterwardes aske the cause why And coÌ„sider also whether it becommeth the Church of England that such an Apologie should goe furth in the name of it as meddleth with the legats whom other Princes of Christendome doe interteyne And which obiecteth to a person of much Authoritie at the least such an heygâ—nous and shamefull crime as that at his plesure he should trouble the whole world If the Pope were no more quiet and peaceable than ye make him had England all this while continued in schisme and heresie and not ben made a praye to some that would haue taken it What is he that coÌ„maundeth the Emperour to goe by him at his horse bridle Apolog. the Frenche King to hold his stirope Some Pope by lykelihode of your owne making Con. 185. For the Catholiks know of none such at al. Yea Pauluâ— Iouius when Charles the fifthe of worthie memorie would haue helde Pope Clements stirope he was not suffered so to doe the Popes modestie ouer coÌ„ming the Emperours deuotion Why doe they hyde Apolog. why doe they keepe vnder the Ghospell which Christ woulde haue preached alowde from the house toppe We beleue Con. 222. it is not hyddeÌ„ that which is openlie readen in the Churche Catholikelie expounded in Vniuersities Ordinarelie readen in Religiouse houses And commonlie solde in Hebrue Greeke and Latine to all that will studie it This lye is dilated by the Authours of the Apologie Fo. 264. this also is emong the flatte lyes Why doe they not proue theyr Religion Apolog. by the examples of the Primitiue Churche and by the Fathers and Councels of old tymes Our bookes doe aunswer for vs Conf. 231. that this is a lye Why be they afrayd to take a paterne Apolog. of the Apostles and old Fathers We be neuer afraied Con. 20â— but when we come to such heretikes as wil not admit the old Fathers nor theyr interpretatioÌ„s vppon the Apostles then in deede we alleage not so thicke theyr Testimonies whose Authorities the loftie and prowde mindes doe easelie contemne Why dyd Iohn Apolog. 1. Clement a Countrie man of ours 2. but fewe yeares paste 3. in the presens of certaine honest men and of good credite 4. teare and 5. caste into the fyere certaine leaues of Theodorete the moste 6. Auncient Father and a 7. Greeke Bishoppe wherein he playnlie 8. and euidentlie taughte that the nature of Bread in the Communion was not chaynged abolyshed or brought to nothinge And thys dyd he of 9. purpose bycause he thought 10. there was no other copy thereof to be found Ye haue done well so particularlie to set furth this mater Con. 231. declaring by manie circumstances that Doctour Clement shoulde Teare and Caste into the fier certaine leaues of such an Author of such a mater before men of good credite and for suche a purpose and 〈◊〉 â–ª as you specifie And nowe as though the mater needed no further 〈…〉 aske why Iohn Clement a Counâ—rieman of yours dyd so But I will tel you firste 〈◊〉 he dyd not so For as him selfe hath 〈◊〉 me and other asking this verie quâ—stion of him that you appose vs withall he neuer had anie parte of that booke in Greeke or in Latine in written hande And therefore could not wel burne that which he neuer had Nowe if the honest men that you speke of did not only se him cast certeine leaues into the fier but did reade also the contentes of those leaues before they were cast into the fier and vnderstoode vpon what intent D. Clement dyd it c. name them that they maie be knowen for theyr honestie When they did of late put in print Apolog. the auncient Father Origenes worke vp on the Ghospel of Iohn why left they quite out the whoâ—e sixte chapiter wherein it is lykely yea rather of verie suerty that the 〈…〉 had writen many thinges conâ—â—rning the Sacrament of the holy Communion contrarie to these mens myndes We could not leaue that Chapiter out Con. 233. which was not founde in anie Copy But if you can bring anie such chapiter furth ye shal make it lykely aÌ„d ê“bable that we are to blame for not putting it in And if you can not you proue your selfe to be verie suspitiouse and slaunderouse which reproue the Catholikes for not putting that in which is not as farre as we or you doe hitherto know to be found in any place extant Yet you haue suche a grace as in speaking so also in reading without booke that you further saie it to be not onlie lykelie but rather of verie suertie that such and such things should be in that place of Origen which yet you neuer sawe in al your lyfe that you might be able to reporte anie thing of it Which of al the Fathers haue at anâ—e time called you
once saie the word both partes wil submitte theÌ„selues vnto it because it is impossible that he should speake anie vntrueth His authoritie therefore being for so good cause so great with vs either ye can ê“ue that Christ hath fortold as ye report of him or ye can not proue it If ye can not what an impudencie is it againste Christ himself so to belie him and what an iniurie â—s it to the Reader so to abuse him by the name of Christe But if ye can shewe it where Christ hath foretold that our Churche shoulde erre doe so then and speake not so mightie woordes againste vs without anie prouing of them at all But howe is it possible that ye should proue them Christ hath a Church For this first ye will not denie that Christ hath a Church otherwise his Incarnation and Passion hath bene in vaine if he haue not her for whoÌ„ he toke flesh The Churc◠〈◊〉 visible aÌ„d shed his blud This church theÌ„ of Christ is it visible or no Visible it must nedes be because it coÌ„sisteth of meÌ„ â—nd meÌ„ are creatures coÌ„sisting not of pure and simple soules but of soules and bodies togeather And Christ saieth of it Math 5. The Citie can not be hid that is set vpon an hyl Being then visible The Churche hath order in it Sap. 11. shal ye see good order in it or no Vndoubtedlie he that hath made al things by nuÌ„ber weight and measure muste not let that to be without order which he estemeth most of al other thinges For 〈◊〉 is the bodie of Christe Eph. 4. compacted and knit togeather through euerie ioynt wherewith one ministreth to an other hauiÌ„g in it distinction of offices and duties to rule to obey to preache to heare to minister to receaue This Order then The order in the Church must continue Dan. 7. shal it for anie tyme be lacking in Christes Church or shal it continue to the worldes end It muste needes continue because the kingdome of Christ is euerlasting and no power is hable to destroie the order which he taketh The Apostle also most expresly telling vs that Christ hath geuen Apostles Prophetes Euangelistes Pastoures and Teachers â—ph 4. to finish and perfite the holy to worke in the ministery to build vp the bodie of Christ. Which bodie whereas it caÌ„ not be perfited vntill al they be borne that shal be saued soules it foloweth that this Order which I speake of must continue so long vntil all meete togeather in vnity of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of God which wil not be til al be borne that shall so meete togeather and that is at domes day and not before These grounds then so standing I say vnto you for as much as the Church of Christ consisteth of a visible cumpanie of men which is kept in order and vnitie by reason that euery one knoweth his place and keepeth himselfe within his boundes least he loose his place and for as much as this cumpanie and order must continue to the worldes end without dissolution or distruction I say therfore vnto you that either our Catholike Church is the true Church of Christ or els that Christ hath no Church at al. For besides our Church ther is none that hath bensene to coÌ„tinue in any form of religioÌ„ euer sensth ' Apostles time hitherto As in exaÌ„ple before Luther brake out froÌ„ his cloister and Rule ther was not in al the world anyone cuÌ„pany of Luther aÌ„s ZuiÌ„gli aÌ„s Caluinists or any other sect that braggeth at this day of the light aÌ„d knouledge of the gospel Wel ther might be in corners some faithles meÌ„ and womeÌ„ that in hart were heretical like as at this present if harts were sene many shuld be fouÌ„d eueÌ„ in EnglaÌ„d it self to dout of th'iÌ„mortality of the soule aÌ„d th' IncarnatioÌ„ of Christ c but ther was no opeÌ„ coÌ„gregatioÌ„ of theÌ„ nor apê“ued form of ministratioÌ„ emoÌ„g theÌ„ nor any face or shew of a Church For yourselues do say that Martin Luther aÌ„d Hulderik ZuiÌ„glius wer the first that came to the knowledge aÌ„d preaching of the Gospel so that if they were first it foloweth that before they came ther was no congregatioÌ„ of ê“testaÌ„ts in al the world or if it were it was not visible or if it were visible it had no true preachers or if it had true preachers Luther aÌ„d Zuinglê° need not to be praised of you for most excelleÌ„t meÌ„ eueÌ„ sent of God to geue light to the world because there were in the coÌ„gregatioÌ„s of the sincere in the Lord as illumined preachers of the word as they But wher as the truth is as you say that Luther and ZuiÌ„glius were the first that cam to the knoulege aÌ„d prechiÌ„g of the Gospel which is none in dede and wher as it remaineth to this day not oÌ„ly in the bokes that are writeÌ„ but in the memories of meÌ„ that knew those daies that before Luther and ZuiÌ„glius made a tumult in ReligioÌ„ ther was not in al ChristeÌ„doÌ„ any other ê“fessioÌ„ of faith thaÌ„ was sene in our Church which we know to be Catholik it foloweth that your church caÌ„ not possibly be the Church of Christ the coÌ„tinuaÌ„ce of which your church caÌ„ so litle be ê‘ceiued that yourselues know it begaÌ„ to com furth in Frier Luther and Sir ZuiÌ„glius time In whiche Churche there was so little order that ye can name neither SuperintendeÌ„t nor minister nor preacher nor broâ—her of it that liued before the most excelleÌ„t meÌ„ Luther and Zuinglius and which Churche was so inuisible that ye neuer sawe so much as any forme of communion table pulpit vestiment or other thing vsed in it Yet we see this by experience that when a cumpany of heretikes doth mete togeather they wil not be longe without theyr preacher euerie one is so readie to be preacher and they can not be without some place and they wil make harde shifte but they will haue a good place which is the cause that so many requestes haue bene made to Gouernours of certaine Countries and so manie Religious houses and Churches haue bene hewed and squared for the receiuing of the newe Ghospel Therefore if there was anie congregation extant of this your Church before Frier Luther lay with Nonne Katerine and begate manie foule and fi lt hic opinions of his owne braine and if that Church was the true Apostolik Church and had so continued from the beginning theÌ„ had they places to resort vnto and they vsed such order as they had receiued of theyr Forefathers and you are hable to name the place and tel vs theyr Order But we can he are of no such thing ergo there was no Church of yours at all as then Add then now vnto this that Luthers Church began with Luther and so furth euery Church sens Luther hath begon with the Diuiser of it And consider that the true Church of Christe can haue no suche
put case these Abbates and Bishops haue no knowledge Apolog. What if they vnderstaÌ„d nothing what religion is nor howe we ought to thinke of God I put case the pronouncing and ministring of the lawe be decayed in Priestes and good counsell faile in the Elders as the Prophete Micheas saieth the nyght to be vnto them in stede of a vision and the darkenesse in stede of propheÌ„siyng Or as Esaias saieth what if all the watchmen of the Citie are become blinde What if yâ— salt haue lost his propre streÌ„gth and sauerines And as Christ sayeth be good for no vse scant worth the casting on the dunghill The lesse knowledge you would make the bishops and Abbats to haue Con. 280. the more miracle it wil be that without knowledge they haue such learning as their bookes and preachings and doinges doe testifie Take for an example the Catholike Bishops of England Is there among them all any one against whom you may come with your textes of Micheas Esaias or Christ our Sauiour Yet you put the case they haue no knowledge I aunswere that your case is a verie hard one But yet to remedie somewhat this matter if our Bisshops should be so vnlearned and ignorant I thinke it were better for the common wealth to set them to Schole than to put them in prison Or if they be nothing mete for lerniÌ„g to set them rather at libertie being suche as can hurte the procedinges nothing for lacke of good life and knowledge than to kepe them in so preciselie and politikely as though euerie worde that they should speake were able to coÌ„found an heretik Howe then if the Pope haue seene none of these thinges Apolog. and haue neuer reade either the Scriptures or the old Fathers or yet his owne Councels I aunswer â–ª but first Con. 284 I will also put a case What if there were no shame in a man What if there were no regarde of the sight of God What if in all thinges he should seeke for this onlie howe to fill the peoples eares and to make them gather of an exceading greate word somewhat at the least Wâ—â—ld there be anie discretion or staie in suche a one of putting cases of deniyng moste manifeste truthes of slaundering worthie persons and goeyng against sense and reason So is it with the Authours of the Apologie For how theÌ„ say they if the Pope haue neuer readen either the scriptures or the old fathers or yet his owne CouÌ„cels How then Are ye not ashamed to put such a case as neither euer yet happened nor euer is like to come to passe by any reason Shew the occasion of this your suspition and feare Declare your selfe to be of greater experience and consideration than those are which quake for feare where no cause is Name anie one Pope that hath not bene so learned that you might welthink him to haue readen the Scriptures Ye can name none at al. You put only a case with how then if he hath neuer readen the Scriptures And I aunswer that if it be so it is a great miracle And that except you bring furth some certificate of it it is not to be beleued But neither you meant it I suppose to affirme it only ye thought it enoughe to speake much as thoughe you could bring furth somwhat And to leaue it to your Reader to suspect somwhat although you proued nothing I confesse vnto you I can not tel what to saye to such What thens and What yfs But if you haue any arte in iudging of them I pray you if the skye should fal were not many larkes like to be taken And if such kindes of What yfs as you haue put might be folowed in other examples were not manie fooles like to be made and preferred by it and many Wyll Sommers would they not be found in England which would quickly saie what if all the Councell be vnlearned And what if poore knaues haue as great a gift of wisedome and knowledge as the Noble and Learned of the world Thus far concerning this matter The 11. Chapiter confuting a blasphemous Lye BY manie smal practises at length an habite is goten and he that refrayneth not his tongue and thought in the lesse shal make it so fond and slipperie that it will offende in the greater And the Apologie of England whyles it toke not good heede inough to speake trulie of men it is come to that blind audacitie that it belieth God him selfe For this cause therefore that the Authours thereof maie the better consider of theyr rashnes and the Indifferent Reader may the more plainelie see that he muste not truste euerie Sprite I place this lie by it selfe as a singular one without felowes and without coÌ„parison and I call it as it deserueth a Blasphemous lye For thus they saie in defence of theyr discession from the Catholike Church Though we haue departed from that Church whiche these men cal Catholike Apolog. by that meanes get vs enuy amongst them that want skyl to iudge yet thys is inough for vs it ought to be inough for euerie wyse and good man and one that maketh accompt of euerlasting life that we haue gone from that Churche which had power to erre which Christ who can not erre told so long before it should erre Where find ye this in anie Ghospel Con. 322 Or why tel ye not your Reader of it that he also might perceaue it Or why directe ye him not to the place at the leaste where he might seeke it Can it be any other than wicked impudencie to make Christ saie that which he neuer saied If Christ hath foreâ—old it in deede that our Churche shoulde erre shewe vs that and there is nothing to be replied Fathers Councels Stories Apologies Replies Reioynders al other labours maie be spared onelie that place were to be shewed where Christ hath so plainly coÌ„founded vs. For this you maie be sure if ye can proue that our Church maie erre you shal perswade al the sort of vs to forsake it and get vs to an other of whiche we maie be sure it can not erre But forasmuch as ye can bring furthe no such word of Christ why make ye such a wretched crake as though ye were departed from a church that may erre to a better congregation or as though Christ should beare witnes vnto the goodnes of your doeynges by his foretelling that our Churche should erre Here ye are to be pressed aÌ„d here should ye be enforced to aunswer For by this place it will quickely be seen who hath woÌ„ne or who hath lost For if it were S. Ambrose or S. Augustin that did affirme anie thing the Catholike would so farre accepte it as he should see other Fathers to agree to it and the heretike woulde so litle make of it that if all the fathers bysides did saie with them he woulde not be bound to folow theyr authority because they al were meÌ„ But if Christ