that you doe Among these ye dare be bolde to reason the matter to the full But this I say vnto ye let the diuell bring his note booke with him let the Pope and all his prelates vtter al the skill they can yet the word of God shall still be able to beate them downe in this matter to proue that subiects incurre damnation when they rebell against princes which are the ministers of GOD. As for the examples which ye bring I will shew how they doe not proue that which you alleage them for And then I will let ye see how it is to be proued by the law of God that subiects haue no such power against their princes but that euery priuate man doth very horribly rebell against the Lord God which rebelleth against the powers set vp by God Pa. Howsoeuer yee may seeme to dally with those examples which I haue alleaged yet sure I am they proue that which I doe alleage them for both that it is lawful to kil wicked princes also by colourable dealing for we haue example of the one in Ehud and of the other also in Iehoiada Pro. I will maintaine that which I haue said and shew that they doe not make for that which ye cite them for It is set forth in the Iudges that Israel had done euill in the sight of the Lord and he made Eglon king of the Moabites to preuaile against them to bring them into seruitude When the children of Israel cried vnto the Lord he raised vnto them a deliuerer euen Ehud Afterward it is set foorth how he came went with a present to Eglon desiring to speake with him alone and so slew him Consider well in this storie first how Eglon was an vniust vsurper Iudg. 3. oppressing Israel like a cruell tyrant where he had no right Secondly Ehud is no priuate man but raised vp by the Lord to be their deliuerer Wherefore he had authoritie from God to put downe Eglon euē as wel as a lawful king hath right to fight against such as inuade his land and to kil thē Lastly where Ehud did it colourably we may not draw it into an exāple because it was done by an extraordinary spirit which the pope cannot giue to other because he hath him not himself If he could giue to a priuate man that spirit which Ehud had to warrāt him thē were it somwhat As for the example of Athaliah the mother of king Achasia ◠King 11. after she saw her son was dead did arise murder al the kings séed or the blood royal and so vsurped the kingdome she was neither lawful Quéene nor yet to be suffred to liue because she had cōmitted so horrible and cruel murder Wherfore Iehoiada in whose custody the yong king was secretly kept whē he brought him forth to be crowned did not by his owne right set vp a king whō it pleased him but was an helpe to bring the yong king to his right to put downe the wicked murderer vsurper This now maketh nothing at all for the pope whē he taketh vpon him power to depose kings at his pleasure and to set vp whom he shall thinke good Pa. I see well a man cannot bring you to see the power which the prince of the Apostles had and now his successor hath for to depose princes What should a man contend with one which doth not care what he denieth Pro. Christ Iesus whē he was desired by one that he would cōmaund his brother to deuide the land answered Luk. 12. Man who made me a iudge or a deuider Wherby he doth euidently shew that he had no ciuil authority no not in the least causes for els hee would not haue said who made me a iudge much lesse he had authoritie in the highest matters as to depose kings And for this cause when Pilate did aske him if hée were a king he did answer Iohn 18. my kingdom is not of this world likewise he did testifie his subiection to the Emperor Matth. 17. when he Peter did pay tribute How thē doth it come to passe that the pope shuld chalenge to haue that because he is M. vicar which neither Christ nor Peter had No he hath it not that way but because he is the man of sin which hath exalted himselfe aboue all that is called God Moreouer what sayth Christ to his Apostles The kings of the nations rule ouer them Matth. 10. and they that are great exercise authoritie ouer them but it shall not be so among you I pray ye sir if the Apostles might not be as kings princes how had Peter this power to be king of kings or how cā a priest in Italie because as he saith he is the successor of Peter haue this high dignitie to be so farre aboue kings Ye must néeds confesse vnlesse ye will be wilful that the Pope can haue no such power neither from Peter nor Christ they doe both renounce him Then I reason thus as I said before Princes are set vp by God he hath made them his substitutes here on earth he hath not alone giuen them the seate and the sword but also hee hath clothed them with glorie put vpon them as it were of his owne robes when he calleth them Gods We are cōmanded to be subiect to honor and obey not to resist vnder paine of damnation If they command any thing which is disagréeing to Gods will they haue not that power ouer our conscience wee must obey God rather then man Neuerthelesse we are stil subiects to that power which they haue receiued from God And being but priuate men we must say with Dauid God forbid that I should lay my hand vpō my master the king the Lords annointed I say therefore that your Iesuites or whosoeuer fauour them which know their practises are traytors before God and man because they dare lift vp their hand against their soueraigne prince placed in the throne by the high God and subiect to no creature in earth I say therefore let all men take héede of your cursed and damnable waies Let all men sée that your kingdome is not of God which ye vpholde by treasons periuries lyes murders and all kind of euill meanes Pa. All is nought of our side and all good of yours Ye are so malicious that whatsoeuer we do ye condēne it your charity doth shew what ye are Pro. We must néeds say all that is nought which God saith is so I confesse our charitie and yours are not al one for the charitie of you papists is a burning loue Ye can both loue a man and cut his throte also The Lord defend his people from such Vipers which sting to death when they be gentlest of all But Idolatrie is alwaies cruell cannot be maintained but with diuelish and bloody mindes Pa. I know ye doe account vs to be Idolaters and so ye do call vs but we are as far from it as you be
changing your place and roomes The high priests Scribes and Pharisies among the Iewes had their succession and place longer then you and yet Christ and his Apostles did depart from them and were neither heretikes nor schismatikes And why because they had first departed from the truth Ye must not stand vpō one clause but take that which doth follow with it This falling away shal be by the man of sinne the sonne of perdition who was to bee reuealed which is an aduersary and exalteth himself aboue al that is called God or that hath imperiall maiestie so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God boasting or shewing himselfe to be God This is one sentence which doth set the brand in the forehead of your Pope the scarre whereof will euidently appeare when ye haue made as fine worke as ye can Pa. Now ye are come vnto the matter I trow ye will make it plaine and out of all doubt This is spoken indeede of Antichrist but where will ye finde one iot of it in the Bishop of Rome Where will ye finde that euer he hath exalted himselfe aboue all that is called God or that is worshipped which word you translate at your pleasure otherwise thē euer I heard it before that which hath imperial maiestie Ye must proue that the Pope hath exalted himself aboue God or els ye haue slandered blasphemed him Such an one shal Antichrist be Pro. This is all fulfilled by the Pope as I will shew I am not to proue that he hath exalted himselfe aboue God but that hée hath exalted himselfe aboue all that is called God Psalm 82. The kings of the earth are that which is called God for the Scripture saith they are called Gods Iohn 10. And because sebasma which is translated that which is worshipped is in the New Testament giuen to the Emperors of Rome I translate it that which hath imperiall maiestie or dignitie Ye may see that not onely among the prophane writers the epithite sebastos is giuen to the Emperours but also in the 27. of the Acts of the Apostles S. Luke saith that S. Paul was deliuered to a captaine spires sebastes of the band of Augustus Also likewise Act. 25. Festus saith that Paul had appealed to Sebaston that is to Augustus Now the words of S. Paul setting forth the man of sinne are cléerely fulfilled in the Pope who hath bin as all men know exalted so high aboue kings and Emperours that they held his stirrops when he went to horsebacke There hath béen none Lord ouer kings and Emperours but the Romane Bishop None exalted to that dignitie but the Italian Priest Pa. The Apostle saith all that is called God and therefore it is to bee vnderstood of God himselfe for is not he called God There is cause why the Pope should be aboue all the kings and Emperours that doth not proue him to be the man of sinne He hath that of right because he is Christs Vicar Pro. The Apostle doth vse this spéech to put difference betwéen in déed and that which is called God and hath but that high title and is not God in déede God is more then called God for he is very God indéed This thing is also manifest when the Apostle in the next words rising by degrées saith that hee sitteth in the temple of God shewing himselfe that he is God In this last and highest he doth but set him forth to chalenge to himselfe to bée equall with GOD. Where ye say it doth belong of right to the Pope to bee aboue all kings because he is the Vicar of Christ I will answer that anon in another matter Pa. I must let ye haue your saying there is no remedie but doth the Bishop of Rome then sit in the temple of God boasting himselfe that hee is God I marueile what glose ye can make to perswade the people that the Pope doth this Who euer can shew that the Bishop of Rome doth not take himselfe to be a man If he take himselfe to be a man doth he then boast himselfe to be God For shame leaue your slandering and finde some other to ascribe this name Antichrist vnto for to the holy father it doth not belong Pro. Ye must néeds let me haue my saying when it is so manifest truth that ye cannot tel which way to cauill against it The Bishop of Rome doth sit in the temple of God shewing himselfe that he is God Ye néede not maruell nor there néedeth no glosing to perswade the people in this poynt It is rather greatly to be wondred how men should bee so blinde as not to know this great monster séeing the holie Ghost doth so liuely paint him forth in his colours The man of sin must not be a forenner for the Apostle sheweth that he shuld haue his seate in the temple of God This cannot bee vnderstood of the materiall temple in Ierusalem for that was vtterly destroyed shortly after Christ But it is meant of the true temple of God which is his Church In this temple sitteth not the Turke nor yet the Iew or any Pagan doth here raigne but the Pope hath long time had his royall throne set vp in this temple No man can say the Turke or any of the forenamed is Antichrist for wee must not goe out of Christendome to séeke him but find him we must set vp in the very temple of God Al the Papists in the world shall neuer be able to shew any other in the church besides the Pope vnto whom they may apply this descriptiō Where hath there euer béen any in the temple of God which of necessitie is here takē for the church exalted aboue all that is called God beside the Bishop of Rome I pray God open the eyes of the ignorant people whom ye seduce that they may see Antichrist and forsake him Pa. O how you would triumph if yee had any great matter of your side when ye brag so much of nothing VVhat if I should tell ye that the Antichrist which S. Paul doth describe is not yet risen What can ye say must the Pope needes be he because he hath the highest seate in the Church Whē ye haue proued that he boasteth himselfe to bee God then ye shall say somewhat Pro. Where the word of God goeth directly against ye there ye make no account of it at all such bolde beasts yee are to call it nothing But what if ye should tell vs that Antichrist is not yet come alas poore foolish papist What if a Iew should tell vs that Christ is not yet come shall we beléeue him Wee know he is already come hath fulfilled all things which were written of him in the Prophets Shall we be so foolish with the Iewes as to wait for another Likewise what if a Papist tel vs that great Antichrist which the scripture doth speak of is not yet come shall we bee so mad when we see that the Romish Bishop and his clergy
certaintie to trie the trée and to know it by the fruite And hath the spirit which made them and preserueth them so lost his power and are his qualities and operations so weake that he cannot bée discerned from the spirit of the diuell Are his fruites such as they cannot be discerned from the rotten fruites of the flesh and the workes of darknes Ephes 1. Rom. 8. Saint Paul saith that we are sealed with the holy spirit of promise he willeth mē to walke after the spirit not after the flesh he setteth forth the fruites of the flesh Galath 5. and the fruites of the spirit Rom. 8. He saith that this spirit doth beare witnesse vnto our spirit that we are the sonnes of God This should bee but a weake witnesse if wee should not bée able to know whether we haue him or not But perhaps all these scriptures many other which I could cite haue not light enough in them for your blind eyes and therefore I will shew ye the thing more fully thus A man heareth the word of God preached 1. Cor. 12. it striketh his heart and conuerteth him wheras before he was as blind as a béetle now he séeth the light whereas before he had no loue to the holy word of God now his hart is inflamed with zeale and delight in it whereas before his care was of this world couetousnes did cause him gréedily to séeke vnlawfull gaine now his mind is bent vpon heauenly things and after them he séeketh whereas before he was full of adulteries riot wantonnes vanity now his wicked affections are tamed and altered he much abhorreth such filthines and whereas before he could neuer cease doing euill he was neuer at ease but when he delighted himselfe in some vngodlinesse now he is a man quite changed he doth much lament and sorrow that euer he was so wicked to despise God all his ioy is now to doe good workes the feare of God is before his eyes now féeling this wonderfull chaunge in himselfe that he is new borne to God that he is a new creature he knoweth right well that he is lead by the holy spirit of GOD and that he hath wrought this new worke in him Pa. It seemeth by your talke that such as haue receiued the spirit are so sure that they cannot be deceiued To what purpose then was Saint Paul so carefull to warne the true Christians to take heede yea we may see that there were diuers of them seduced This is quite contrarie to that certaintie which you doe speake of Pro. There is no cōtrariety in these things for if any were seduced and drawne away frō the truth vnto destruction it is most certaine they were neuer sealed with the spirit but had some small taste He laboureth with the other to haue them grow strong to bee grounded and rooted in the trueth not to bée as children carried away with euery blast of vaine doctrine for the blessed Apostle Saint Peter describing such false Teachers as you 2. Pet. 2. sheweth that they shall beguile vnstable soules Such therefore as will not bee seduced neither by you nor any other heretikes must abound in knowledge and grace for so wee are willed If the wisedome of the holy Ghost be in vs and hath inlightened vs the subtiltie of the diuell and the power of darknesse shall not ouercome vs the power of the holy Ghost is greater then the power of Satan and for this cause we are sure of victorie If this were not we could haue but small comfort we should he but in woe case It is not your greasie pope which could helpe vs which himselfe is ouercome of the diuell and obeyeth his will Pa. Well well for this matter I say still that your doctrine is new that ye condemne all our forefathers and whereas you would seeme to proue that it is the ancient Catholike faith because ye proue it by the Scriptures I say you proue nothing for the Scriptures can proue nothing without the interpretation of the Church you can not interprete neither can ye iudge but the great shepheard whose voyce ye should heare must giue the sense therefore I say still that ye be heretikes all the packe of yee and but that I spare ye I could bite ye a little better I am sorie ye bee so wilfull Pro. When ye haue spent all your powder then yée retire backe againe into your castle which is so sure as you suppose that nothing can batter the walles but when a man doth view them well he shall finde them to be but painted clothes For in very déed ye stand obstinately and frowardly vpon certaine bare affirmations And when a man hath neuer so strongly confuted and disproued them yet ye alleadge them still But let this go and come to the rest Ye say ye could but that ye spare me or els that ye are musled bite me a little better I feare not your teeth for I trust your biting will not ranckle not because they bée not venime but because I am so well defensed that ye cannot fasten your téeth vpon me But spare not powre out all your poyson and doe your worst Pa. Yee doe but gibe and mocke at those things which I speake it is euen according to your profession yee are deriders of good things and of the true Catholike faith take heede it is better for ye to repent and to turne home againe to the holy Church which ye haue and doe dishonour I said that I did spare ye and it shall appeare now for I will touch ye a little neerer and yet but with the trueth not with all that I might say neither for it were infinite to rehearse all your abominable waies which ye walke in and are to bee charged withal A little shall suffice I say by your wicked and carnall doctrine euen your new Gospell ye teach all loosenes and licentious libertie to the flesh As for example ye denie the merits of good workes ye teach that men are iustified by faith without good deeds ye teach Election and Predestination and denie freewill and so by this meanes the people are brought to haue no care of good workes but to liue as they lust for thus it doth follow if we be iustified by faith alone what neede we care for good workes If we bee chosen and predestinate and haue no freewill left in vs to chuse or refuse then let God alone wee cannot further nor hinder our selues what should wee eare let vs then set cocke a hoope and take our pleasure while we be here this is your sweet doctrine thus ye teach Pro. I néede not maruell to heare ye threaten to bite me whē ye dare open your mouth to blaspheme the Lord God and to barke like a most filthie and prophane dogge against the most glorious Gospell of Christ Which howsoeuer ye belie it doth teach all heauenly puritie and care of good workes They bée conclusions of your owne
is among you Papists Some one of ye doe deuise a lye and then ye tosse it from one to another vntill at the last it hath a passeport giuen it from such credible men that it may go where it wil. But I will let this passe and come to some other of your wicked meanes by which yee labour to stay vp the rotten chayre of Antichrist I will come yet to greater and more shamefull villanies which trueth neuer néedeth because the Lord doth support her Pa. Can you finde such matters against vs and not see your selues I warrant ye that which ye doe accuse vs of is to be found in you howsoeuer ye accuse vs and excuse your selues Pro. Where can ye finde that euer the truth was maintained by periuries and breaking couenants Let a man reade and reade again among all Heathen men Turks and Iewes where shall he finde that it hath bin taken generally to be allowed that they might sweare and forsweare to deceiue and not make conscience to kéepe the oth Among you this is a principle faith is not to bee kept with heretikes Which also yee doe from time to time put in practise It is not to bee looked for that you should sticke to make lyes when yee dare publish it to the world in writing that ye may lawfully forsweare your selues and breake the faith which ye haue giuen by oth By this meanes ye haue cōmitted very horrible slaughters and cruell murthers the like whereof haue scarsely béen heard of Are these practises of God O ye bloody periured forsworne wretches Doth the holy Ghost leade men into such kind of dealing no verely it is the spirit of the father of lyes of periuries of murthers which ye are lead withall Gods spirit is the spirit of trueth hee neuer teacheth men to lye and to deale falsly and therefore those people are bewitched which think the Pope his adherēts to bee lead by the spirit of God when as they be so full of all abominable treacheries Pa. What should we meddle with these things I cannot tell how a man should perswade you to see the authoritie of the Church You iudge of all things after your owne reason I haue no delight to deale in these matters I will not say that which I could say Pro. I cannot blame ye that ye are loth to meddle in these matters It were a great deale better if they were kept close among your selues For now no man that is wise will trust ye neither vpon promise nor yet vpon oth which ye breake so often There be many goodly rules which ye deuise now secretly among your selues But what should you go about to perswade with me in these matters which am not first perswaded how great authoritie the Church hath For ye haue none other argument but the authoritie of the Church to allow these things Gods word doth curse and condemne periuries and murders committed by such treacheries To dispute out of that for the maintenance of them yee know yee shall haue but a cold suite of it It is a great deale better therefore to lay the word of God aside and to set forth what power the new God hath for to change the nature of things He is of another maner power then men wéete The GOD which hath spoken in the Scriptures can doe nothing nor say nothing but trueth but the God of Rome hath power to do what he will and to say what hee list whether it bee true or false This is a mightie God he can play both fast and loose at his pleasure Let a thing bée neuer so much commended by God in the Scriptures if he say it is naught then is it naught So on the other side whatsoeuer it bee that is condemned to be euill he hath power to make it good This is the cause why you say many are deceiued they looke but to the Scriptures and forget this God which hath power ouer the Scriptures Pa. If you may accuse what ye list then it were well But let vs see wherein the Pope hath challenged any such power Pro. Haue not I shewed ye already in some part as in lyes murders and periuries Will ye haue more what say ye to treasons and rebellions Doth not the Pope make it lawfull to commit treason Doth he not discharge subiects of their obedience and subiection to their Prince Doth he not giue any of them leaue to kill their Prince and maketh it a worke greatly meritorious What diuell can goe further then this Doth not God set vp Princes and hath not hee put the sword into their hands Doth not he charge men to bée subiect to obey them Doth not he say that whosoeuer doth resist them doth resist the ordinance of God and that those which doe resist do purchase to themselues damnation O ye traiterous wretches doe ye not sée that yée draw all those into damnation vnder Gods curse whom ye draw from their loue and obedience towards their Prince Let all men consider this hath a greasie balde Priest of Italie power against Gods word to giue leaue to subiects and inferiour persons in England to play the vilaines and traytors against their soueraigne prince whom God hath set ouer them for whose defence God doth require at their hands to giue their liues Shal the foule beast of Rome haue power to reward that déede in heauē which God hath threatned to punish in hell Let all the people of this land consider this and shun such filthy abominable men Some will say wherefore should wee eschew them being honest If ranke traytors be honest then are all the Iesuites Seminaries and popish priests with such as loue and harbour them to be counted honest Pa. I see more and more that I cannot preuaile by speaking and therefore I will giue ye ouer say euen what ye list I see it is good for a man to take heed with whom he doth talke I could answere ye to the full if it might doe good Thus much I will say that it is one thing to commit treason against a prince which is godly and another thing to kill an heretike which is no lawfull prince The subiects indeede may not disobey and rebell but when the prince is no right prince then they are no longer subiects What say ye to Ehud in the booke of the Iudges did not he slay Eglon king of Moab and that vnder colour of a message What say ye to Iehoiada the priest did not hee cause them to slay Athaliah when she had reigned certaine yeares and set vp Ioash to bee king If the priest of the law had this power how much more the priest of the Gospell Pro. Ye would giue me ouer now ye say but your traiterous heart is so full that it will not suffer ye Indéede I know ye like it much better to deale among the vnlearned people whom ye may draw to your opinion or with such as ye know to beare the same minde