contrarie vnto them and reproouing yea condemning to hell their vaine curious searching of Gods secrets and the successe of things by such fallible and vncerteine accidents Theod. Me thinke this is the next way to withdrawe men from GOD the Creator to depende and hang vpon creatures is it not Amphil. It is the onely waie For who hearing that the creatures as the sun the moone the starres the signes planets doe giue both good things and euil blessing and cursing good successe and euill successe yea life and death at their pleasure as these brainesick fooles hold they doe and that they rule gouerne and dispose al things whatsoeuer yea both the bodies soules of man for so some shame not to say who hearing this I say would not fall from God and worship the creatures that giue such blessings vnto man What can be a néerer way to withdrawe the people not onelie from God but also to hale them to idolatrie and wholy to depend vpon creatures as the heathen do to their eternall damnation for euer But say they though we giue authoritie great power great rule and gouernement to the treatures yet we giue vnto God the chéefest stroke and the chéefest rule in all things all other creatures being but the instrumentall or secundarie causes or that I may speake plainlie as it were his deputies substitutes or instrumentes whereby he ruleth and worketh all things Is this any thing else than to saie with certeine heretikes that though God made all things yet he ruleth them not nor hath no care ouer them but hath committed the rule and gouernement of them to his creatures Then which what blasphemie can be greater is not this a flatte deniall of the prouidence of God which scripture so much setteth forth and commendeth vnto vs Shall we thinke that God made all things and now as one wearie of his worke committeth the gouernmente of them to other creatures Saith not our Sauior Christ Pater et ego operamur my father worketh and I worke Meaning thereby that as he wrought in creating of all things so he worketh still in ruling them by his power gouerneing them by his wisdome and preseruing them by hys prouidence and will do to the end of the world But when they haue proued that he hath committed the rule and gouernement of his creatures to his creatures then I will saye as they say In the meane time I say holde that it derogateth greatly from the glorie and maiestie of God to saye or affirme that creatures haue the gouernement of all things committed vnto them For if there should be many kings princes and rulers in any one realme or country must not the dominion and rule of the chief prince or regent be lesser than if he ruled and gouerned alone Woe were vs if wee were at the rule and gouernement of creatures but blessed be our God who as he knoweth our frailtie hauing therefore cōpassion of our infirmities so he ruleth and gouerneth all things whether in heauen earth hell or else whersoeuer according to the good pleasure of his will In the 1. and 2. chapters of Genesis besides infinit the like places of holie scriptures we read that the sun the moone the stars with all creatures else were created made for the vse and cōmoditie of man being made subiect to him he constitute lord ouer them yet notwithstanding are they becom now his lords and he their subiect vassall and bondslaue This is preposterous geare when Gods ordinance is turned topsie turuie vpside downe It is time these phantasticall fellowes were looked to in time that wil go about to disthronize the mightie God Iehoua of his regall throne of maiestie and glorie making an Officiperda of him a iacke out of office to pul him as it were E caelis Out of the heauens downe to the earth giuing him no power nor authoritie at all Theod. Haue the signes and planets then no power nor authoritie at all vpon things on the earth Amphil. Yes they haue their power their operation force strength and effect in those things whereto GOD hath created them as namely in the growing increasing cherishing fostering renewing comforting reuiuing of all natural things And also they haue their influence operation in mans bodie for letting of bloud receiuing of purgatiōs the like But to say that they work these effects of their own proper force strength or that they rule or dispose the spirits soules of man is vtterly false at no hand true And yet notwithstanding is far infatuat are these busie heded astronomers curious serching astrologers that they attribute euery part of mans body to one particular signe planet affirming that part of the bodie to be ruled by that signe or planet And therefore to Aries they haue assigned the gouernement of the head face To Tau the necke and throte To Gem. the shoulders the armes the hands To Leo the hart and back To Can. the brest stomake lungs To Lib. the raines and loines To Uir. the guts bellie To Scor. the prime parts bladder To Sag. the thighes To Cape the knées To Aqu. the legs To Pisc. the féet And thus haue they doe beare the world in hand that the whole bodie of man both Interne externe within without is ruled and gouerned by the xij signes by starres and planets not by God only For the cōfirmation of which fained vntruth they pretend the xij moneths in the yere to be ruled gouerned by the xi◠signes in the element and the seuen daies in the wéeke to be ruled by the seuen planets also Besides this they haue their particular houres times and seasons wherein they chiefly worke their effects and haue greatest strength So that by their reasons no moneth in the yere nor day in the weeke nor no houre in the day nor night but it is ruled and gouerned by the influence and constellation of the starres and planets and nothing is effected or brought to passe but what they will and intend Theod. Are the signes and planets liuing creatures and reasonable or insensible creatures and things without life Amphil. They are no liuing or reasonable creatures it is without all controuersie but meerely insensible and without life And being without life and reason how is it possible that they should bring life or death as these felowes hold sicknesse or health prosperitie or aduersitie heate or cold faire weather or foule beautie or deformitie long life or short or any thing else And if they be not able to giue these things how much lesse able are they then to gouerne rule and dispose all thinge in heauen earth the aire or else whersoeuer so ouerthrowe monarchies kingdoms nations countries and people and finally to work althings after their owne desire and will Will they haue dumbe and vnreasonable creatures to rule the reasonable If that were true why should God be praised either for his
of apples as Master Latimer talketh of with thirty angels in euery apple thogh he be neuer so learned a man I warrant him he gets nothing But if he can get a graffe of this tree loden with such golden apples it will serue him better then all Saint Paules learning For these and the like abuses infinite if the patronages were taken away from them that now enioy them nay that make haâ—ocke of them and either to rest in the right of the Prince as they ought or else in the right of the churches who will not be corrupted it were a great deale better than nowe they bee For now the poore pastours are so handled at the hands of their patrones that they neyther haue mony to buy them bookes withall nor which is lesse not to maintaine themselues vppon though but meanelye but are manye times constrained either to wander abroad to séeke their liuings or els to take vp their Inne in an alehouse or in some od corner or other to the great discredite of the gospell of Christ and offence of the godlie This argueth flatly that we loue not Christ Iesus who make so little of his messengers and ambassadors He that despiseth you despiseth me and he that receaueth and maketh much of you he receiueth me and maketh much of me saith Christ. The beathen gentils and pagans prouide better for their idolatrous priests then we do for the true preachers of the gospell and disclosers of the secrets of God For when the Egyptians were sore pooled of Pharao the priests by his commandement were excepted and permitied to haue all necessarie maintenance whatsoeuer But we are of another mind for we think whatsoeuer we get of theÌ„ is won it is our own good whereas in truth what we withdrawe from theÌ„ prouided that they be diligent preachers of the pospell we withdraw it froÌ„ God and ferrie it to the deuil But hereof more shal be spoken Christ willing hereafter when we come to this question whether it be lawful for preachers and ministers of the Gospell to receiue wages and stipends for preaching of the worde Theod. By what law may a minister of the Gospell make claime to tithes and other profits emoluments duties and commodities belonging to him by y e law of God or of man Amphil. God in the law of Moses gaue speciall commnandement that tithes and other oblations commodities and profits should be giuen to the priests to the end that they might attend vpon the diuine seruice of God and not busie themselues in worldly affaires which ordinance or fanction being méere ceremonial is now fully abrogate by Christ for in him the truth al ceremonies shadowes types figures ceased toke their end And therfore cannot a preacher of the Gospel claime his tithes by the lawe of Moses but by the positiue lawes of Christian princes which are to be obeied in all things not directly against true godlinesse vpon paine of damnation Theod. Are tithes then due to be paid by the positiue law of man and not by the lawe of God Amphil. Yea truly by the positiue lawe of man which godlie constitution is now no lesse to be obeied vnder the Gospel being commanded by a christian prince than the â—iuine institution was to be obeied vnder the law And although tithes bee due by the positiue lawes of man yet are the same grouÌ„ded vpon the word of God and commanded as well by God as by man And therefore he that breaketh this ordinance being an excellent policie violateth the commandements of God and breketh the constitution of his liege prince to his damnation except he repent Theod. Must euerie one pay his tithes truely to euery pastor whether he be ought or naught learned or vnlearned without any exception or may he deteine it with good conscience from him that is an vnfit and vnable minister Amphil. If he be a good pastor and diligent in his calling and withal able to discharge the dutie of a faithful shepheard ouer his flock then ought he to haue al tithes paid him whatsoeuer with the better and if any should withhold the lest mite from him he sinneth against the maiestie of God most gréeuously And although he be a wicked man and not able to discharge his dutie though but in small measure yet ought euerie man to pay him his due faithfully and truly For in denieng him his dutie they might séeme to withstande authoritie which they ought not to doe In the meane time giuing themselues to praier and suing to them that haue the authoritie for his displacing and placing of another that is more able in some measure to discharge the dutie of a faithfull pastor Notwithstanding I know some are of opinion that if any man giue either tithes or anie dutie else to their pastor being an vnfit and an vnable person he is partaker with him of his sinne he communicateth with other mens offences and he maintaineth him in his idlenesse sloth ignorance and securitie and therefore offendeth gréeuously But I am of opinion that euerye man ought to pay their dutie for else he might séeme as I said to resist the power if he be not able to discharge his dutie to pray for his remoouing and to make instance to them that are in authoritie appointed for the redresse of such inormities for his displacing and so not to attempt any thing without good and lawfull authoritie grounded vpon the word for the same Theod. May a pastor that hath a charge and a flocke assigned him to watch ouer hauing maintainable liuing allowed him of his flock preach in other places for monie Amphil. Hee may sometimes obteining licence for some reasonable cause of his owne flocke preach the word of God abroad in other places but then he ought to doe it gratis coâ—tenting himselfe with the liuing allowed him at home of his owne parish Notwithstanding if the other churches where he shall haue preached will voluntarily impart any thing to the supplie of his necessities in respect of his pains taking he may thankfully receiue the â—ame but he may not compell nor constraine them to giue it him whether they will or not against their wils as manie impudently doâ—e Theod. Then I perceiue if it be not lawfull for a pastor that hath a flocke and a stipend appointed him to receiue monie vppon constraint of strangers for preaching the worde abroad in other places then is it not lawfull for him to take monie in his cure for preaching funerall sermons marriage sermons christening sermons and the like as many do What say you to this Amphil. There are manie woorthie of great blame in this respect For though they recâ—iue fortie pound a hundred pound or two hundred pound a yéere of some one parish yet will they hardly preach once a moneth nay happily not once in a quarter of a yéere and sometimes not once a twelue moneth for the same And if a man request them to preach at a burial a
true repentance for his sinnes to fore committed liue for euer in ioye both of body soule whereas if exhortations had not bin he might happily haue died irrepentant or vtterly desperate to his euerlasting destruction for euer Yea it is coÌ„monly seene that those who could neuer be wonne to Christ Iesus all the daies of their life before yet at the last howre they are soone recouered Therefore ought not the pastors to neglecte their duties therein but warely and carefully to watche ouer their flocks night and day without ceasing that wheÌ„ the great shephard of the sheepe commeth he may rewarde them with the immercessible crowne of eternall glory And thus much be it spoken hereof Theod. In whome doth the election of the minister or pastor consist in the church onely or in the bishops Amphil. I tolde you before as I remember that the church might examine the life the conuersation and disposition of him or them whome they would haue to be their pastor and finding the same good to present him or them to the bishops or elders to whome it apperteineth to examine for his sufficiencie in knowledge and dexteritie in teaching and handling the word of God and finding him a man furnished with gifts and graces necessary for such a high vocation to call him lawfullie according to the word of God and so to sende him foorth into the Lords haruest as a faithfull laborer therein Theod. But some are of opinion that the churches themselues of their owne absolute and plenarie power ought to choose their pastor and not bishops Ampil The churches haue no further power in the election of their pastor than as I haue told you that is to iudge of his conuersation integritie of life referring the whole action besides to the bishops and elders For if the churches should elect their minister or pastor of themselues absolutely besides that it would bréed confusion for some would choose one some another some this and some that neuer contenting theÌ„selues with any the church should doe that also which were directly contrarie to the word of God For certeine it is the church hath no absolute power by the word of God to elect their pastor to choose him to cal him orderly in such forme as is appointed in the word obseruing all kinde of rites ceremonies orders belonging thereto Neither was it euer séene that any church did euer practise the same For in the dais of the apostles did the churches any more than choose foorth certeine persons of a tried conuersation presented theÌ„ to the apostles And did not the apostles then whom our bishops now in this action do represent lay their hands vpon them approue them after triall had of their sufficiencie in knowledge and sent them forth into the Lords vineyard The churches laid not their hands vpon them or as some call it consecrated them not nor vsed not any other ceremoniall rite in the election of them as the apostles did But as I grant that the church for som cause and in soâ— respects is not to be excluded froÌ„ a consultatiue voyce as before or from being made priuie at al to the election of their pastor so I denie that the church may absolutely of his owne plenarie power cal their pastor all ceremonies and rites thereto belonging obserued for that is to be don and executed of the bishops elders and not of the churches consisting of lay men and for the most part rude and vnlearned Theod. What say you to a seigniorie or eldership were it not good for the state of the church at this day that y e same were established in euery congregation as it was in y e apostles daies Amphil. The seueral estates and conditions of the apostolicall churches and of ours al circumstances duly considered are diuers and much different one from another and therefore though a seigniorie or eldership then in euerie particular church were necessarie yet now vnder christian princes it is not so néedfull The churches then wanted christian princes and magistrates to gouerne the same and therefore had néed of some others to rule in the church But God be thanked we haue most christian kings priâ—ces and gouernors to rule and gouerne the church therfore we stand in lesse néed of the other And yet notwithstanding I grant that a seigniorie in euery congregation were to be wished if it could be brought to passe yet cannot I perceiue but that it would rather bring confusion than reformation considering the state of the church at this day For in the apostles times when seigniories were ordeined we read not of any shires dioces or precincts where bishops and ecclesiasticall magistrates might exercise their authoritie and gouernement as now they doe and therefore there being neither bishops ecclesiasticall nor ciuill magistrates as we haue now it was necessarie that the seigniories shuld be ordeined But now we hauing al these things stand not in such necessitie of them as the churches in the apostles daies did Besides the institution of elders was but meere ceremoniall and temporall and therefore not to continue alwaies neither ought the necessitie thereof to binde all churches Neither doe I thinke that all churches are bound for euer to one forme of externall gouernement but that euery church may alter and change the same according to the time and present state therof as they shal see the same to make for the glorie of God and the common peace of the church Theod. What say you to deacons Is their office necessarie or not in the church of God at this day Amphil. Their office which was to make collections for the poore to gather the beneuolencies and contributions of euerie one that were disposed to giue and to sée the same bestoed vpon the poore and néedie members of the church is very necessarie and without doubt ought to be continued for euer But yet is not the church tied to their names onely but to their office Which office is executed by honest substantiall men called Churchwardens or the like chosen by the consent of the whole congregation to the same end and purpose who daily gathering the friendlye beneuolencies of the churches bestow or sée the same bestowed vpon the poore and indigent of the same church which was the greatest part of the deacons duties in the apostles daies So that albeit wee haue not the name we yet hold their office in substance and effect Theod. What is your iudgement ought there to be any bishops in the churches of christians Amphil. To doubt whether there ought to be bishops in the churches of chrâ—stians is to doubt of the truth it selfe For is there not mention made of their names dignities functions and callings almost in euery chapter of the new testament in all the epistles of Paule of Peter of Iohn of Iude and of all the rest Besides that did not the apostles themselues constitute and ordeine bishops and elders and doe they not woonderfully commende the
excellencie of their calling inferring that those that rule well are worthye of double honour Whereby appeereth that bishops are not onlye needefull in the churches of christians but also most needfull as without whome I can scarcely see how the state of the church could well bee maintained And therefore those that contend that they are not necessarie in a Christian Common wealth shewe them selues either wilfull waiwarde or maliciouslye blinde and striuing to catch their owne shadowes they labour all in vaine giuing manifest demonstration of their more than extreame follie to all the world Theod. Well Let it bee granted as it cannot bee denied that they are moste necessarie yet in this I would verie gladlye bee absolued whether they maye lawfullye vendicate or challenge to themselues superioritie and primacie aboue their fellowe brethren of the ministerie or no for some holde that there ought to bee equalitie in the ministerie and no superioritie at all how say you Amphil. They doe not vendicate or challenge anie superioritie or primacie to themselues ouer their brethren in respect of their common callings and functions for therein the poorest pastor or shepheard that is is coequall with them they themselues will not denie but in respect of dignitie authoritie and honour which the prince and church doth bestowe vpon them So that the superioritie that they haue ouer their brethren resteth in dignitie authoritie and honour which it hath pleased the prince to dignifie them withall aboue their felowe brethren and not in calling function or office for therein they are all coequall togither But if any curious heâ—â—s should demand why the prince should aduance any of the cleargie to such high dignitie authoritie and primacie aboue his brethren I answer as it is in the Gospell Is thine eâ—e euill bicause the prince is good May not the prince giue his gifts his dignities and promotions to whom he will And if the prince of his roiall clemencie be minded to bestowe vpon his subiect any dignity or promotion is it christian avedience to refuse the same Nay is it not extréeme ingratitude towards his prince Besides who seeth not that if there should be no superioritie I meane in dignitie authoritie only the same honorable office or calling would growe into contempt For is it not an old saieng and a true Familiaritas siue aequalitas parit contemptum Familiaritie or coequallitie doth euer bring contempt And therefore take awaye authoritie and honor from the magistrates either temporall or spirituall and ouerthrowe the same altogither If authoritie should not be dignified as well with glorie and externall pompe the better to grace the same to shew forth the maiestie thereof would it not soone grow to be dispised vilipended and naught set by And therefore the more to innoble and set foorth the excellencie of this honorable calling of a bishop hath the prince the churches thought it good to bestow such authoritie dignitie and honor vpon them and not for anie other cause whatsoeuer And therefore seeing it is the pleasure of the prince to bestowe such dignitie authoritie and honor vpon them me thinke any sober christians should easely tolerate the same Theod. Yea but they saie that there â—ught to be no superioritie in the ministerie bringing in the example of the apostles themselues amongst whom was no superiority inequalitie or principallitie at all Amphil. Indeede amongst the apostles there was no superioritie I grant neither in office calling authoritie nor otherwise but al were equall in ech respecte one to another But what than The apostles were sent to preach to the churches and not to gouerne and therefore they choose elders to rule the same but our bishops are as well to gouerne and to rule the churches in some respects as to preach the worde And therfore though there were no superioritie amongst the apostles yet maye there be amongst our bishops in respect of gouerment dignitie and authoritie And wheras they saie there ought to be no superioritie in the ministerie at all I answeare no more there is in respect of euerie ones function forme of calling and office to preach the word and minister the sacraments But in respect of gouernement authoritie dignitie and honor there is superioritie and I am perswaded so ought to be In which opinion vntill they haue disprooued it I meane Christ willing to persiste Theod. But they adde further and say that it strengtheneth the hands of the aduersaries the papists For saie they the papists may as well affirme that christian emperours kings and potentates and euen the churches of God themselues haue giuen to the pope that authoritie that dignitie and honor which he hath or claimeth aboue his fellowe brethren as well as the bishop may say so Besides it confirmeth the opinion of soueraigntie ouer at the churches in the world For say they may not the pope saie that he receiued plenarie power to be head ouer all the world from christian kings emperours and potentates as well as the bishops may say we receiued this power to be superior to our brethren from christian kings and princes Now whether these reasons be a like I would gladly know Amphil. They be verie vnlike and so vnlike as there is no equallitie comparison or semblance betwixt them For first of all let theÌ„ note that the pope nor any of his complices and adherents doe not holde nor pretende to holde no they dare as well eate off their fingers as to say so for then were their state in a wofull case that their archdiuell their god the pope I should say doth receiue his power either of authoritie superioritie primacie souereigntie or head ouer all the world from any earthly creature but immediately from God himselfe But whereas hée sayth that hee receiued his power of superioritie ouer all the worlde from no earthie creature but from God himselfe it is manifest that he receyued it neyther from God for his vsurped power is contrarie to God and to his words in euerie respecte nor from anie christian man but from the Deuill himselfe whose vicegerent or Liefetenant generall in his kingedome of impietie he shewes himselfe to be Than let them note that although hee pretended to holde his vsurped authoritie from man as hee doth not yet is there no man howe mightie an Emperour King Prince or Potentate soeuer that is able proprio iure to giue him authoritie ouer all the worlde without great and manifeste iniurye done to all other Princes as to giue the soueraigntie or chieftie of their Landes from them to a straunger But a Prince may lawfullye bestowe and geue to his subiectes anie prerogatiue title authoritie office function gouernment or superioritie of anie thing within his owne dominions and kingdomes but no further he maye not And therefore this reason of theirs holdeth not that the Pope maye as well arrogate the one to himselfe as the Byshops may the other to themselues Theod. Séeing now it cannot be denied but that