other sleights besides these that you haue already mencioned The Germaine The 9. semblance YEs b Sleidan in Câ—m 5. there was one Thomas Muncer a Preacher who as Sleidan and other Germaine-writers reporte did greately labour both by his conferences in priuate by his Sermons in publike to draw the common people from their liking of the present estate The Englishman It hath likewise beene the practise of our factious preachers in their verball Sermons to speake against the statâ— ecclesiasticall the book of common prayer the rites ceremonies of the Church of England For the proofe heereof I referre you to the very confession of their owne lippes On Tuesday saith c Anno 1586. one of their owne side T. C. kept Maister Fens Lecture the Text Psalme 122 4. Vnto the end taking thornes as Tâ—emelius doth and vrging the discipline the want whereof he affirmed to be the cause that some friendes for sooke our Church And as this is the practise of some of our factious Ministers in England so is it also the practise of the same faction in Scotland Yea d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Page 38. 39. they snapper out grosselye with the truth of their intentions informing the people that all Kinges and Princes are naturally enemies to the libertye of the Church and can neuer patientlye beare the yoake of Christ with such sound Doctrine fed they their flockes The Germaine The 10. SeÌ„blance THe Anabaptists did not content themselues therewithal but to the end they might doe yâ— more harme they published factious Bookes to the view of the world as may bee gathered by this speech of Maister Zuinglius to the Magistrates in his time a Zuinglius de Baptism Si hoc cuiuis hominum impune facere licebit vt quae priuato suae rationis consilio adinuenit in vulgus spergat inconsulta imo resistente etiam vniuersatotius ecclesiae authoritate breui plus errorum quam fidelium Christianorum in ecclesia erit cernere If it bee lawfull for euery man to publish abroad among the people those thinges which he hath deuised of his owne head before he hath consulted with the Church nay against the authoritie of the whole Church in short time we shall see more errours in the Church then there be faithful men and Christians And in an other place Si hoc permittamus vt capitosus quisque male-feriatus homo c. If we suffer euery headie braineles fellow so soone as he hath conceiued any new thing in his minde to publish it abroad gather disciples and make a new sect in short time we shall haue so many sects factions that Christ which scarse with a great paine and labour is brought to vnitie in euery church should be deuided againe into many parts The Englishman Neyther did our Puritanes therewithall content themselues but that their poyson might ranckle the farther to the disturbance perrill both of the Church common-wealth they haue published a great number of Bookes which are as fit for the fire as the Bookes of curious Artes Act. 19. Yea and they haue also exhorted the common-people to peruse these their sedicious Pamphlets I pray you say they b In a Booke of theirs entituled the state of the church of England c. Page 10. when you come to London see if you can get these bookes The Ecclesiastical Discipline A learned discourse of Ecclesiasticall gouernment The Counterpoyson A Seâ—mon on the 12. to the Romans and Maâ—ster Cartwights last reply some of which bookes haue been extant this dozen yeares and yet are not them answered and you shall there finde that the gouernment of the Church is contrary to the word of God But not to speake onely of their Bookes in gâ—nerall lâ—t vs take a view of the Contents thereof in particular The Germaine Our Sectaries did stuffe their bookes with inuectiues and out-cries both against the Magistracie and the Ministerie TO begin with the Magistracie they taught as Maister The 11. seÌ„blance a Bulling aduers Anabap. Fol. 19. Bullinger also recordeth that the Ciâ—il Magistrate hath no authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters and that hee ought not to meddle in causes of Religion and Faith The Englishman Our Sectaries come not farre behinde them heerein as appeareth by these their speeâ—hes b T. C. lib. 1. Page 192 for the making of orders and ceremonies in the Church saith T. C. they doe where there is a constituted ordered Church pertaine vnto the Ministers of the church and to the Ecclesiasticall gouernours and that as they meddle not with the making of ciuill Lawes and Lawes for the common-wealth so the ciuill Magistrate hath not to ordaine ceremonies partaining to the Church c T. C lib 2 Page 1â—5 And againe No ciuil Magistrates in councels or assemblies for Church-matters can eyther be chiefe moderator ouer-ruler Iudge or dâ—tâ—rminer d Admon 2 No ciuil Magistrate say the admonitors hath such authoritie as that without his consent it should not be lawfull for ecclesiasticall persons to make any church-order or ceremonie e Admon 1 And againe To these three ioyntlie that is the Ministers Seniors and Dâ—acons is the whole regiment of the Church to be committed By this you may see that our Sectaries doe shake hands both with the Anabaptists the Papists But albeit these three contrary factions haue vnited ioyned themselues together and doe al ioyntly oppugne the Princes authoritie in causes â—cclesiasticall yet the authoritie of the sacred Scriptures the judgement of the auncient Fathâ—rs the decisions of auncient Counsels and the practiâ—e of Christian Princes in the pâ—imatiue Church are able to seuer and dis-ioyne all their forces To beginne with the Scriptures they giue sufficient warrant to ciuill Gouernours to ordaine Lawes in Ecclesiastical causes and doe expressely teach that a 2. Reg 12 4 2 Chro. 19. 4. Ibidâ—m 30 1 34. 3. Iehosaphat Hezekias and Iosias did make Lawes for the recalling excercising of the Seruice of God As for the Fathers they holde it to bee an Oracle for truth that b Aug. Epi. 48 Kinges doe serue Christ in making lawes for Christ Yea c Aug. Epi. 50 Rex aliter seruit Domino saith Saint Augustine quia homo est aliter quia etiam Rex est Quia homo est ei seruit viuendo fideliter quia vero Rex est seruit leges iust a praecipientes contraria prohibentes conuenienti vigore sanciendo A King serueth the Lord one way as he is a man and an other way as he is a King As hee is a man he serueth him by liuing faithfully As he is a King he serueth him by making lawes with conuenient vigor to coÌ„maunde that which is right and forbid the contary But not to insist onely vpon Saint Augustins iudgement The d Vide Sozomen lib. 1. cap 17. Bishops that came to the counsell of Nice gaue to the Emperour
d Tit 1 12 Epimenides who were all heathen Poets Is not this a sufficient warrant for a Minister But I see the reason why both your Sectaries and ours doe take such vehement exceptions against Poets Philosophers The Englishman What is the reason The Germaine The 65. seÌ„blance SVrely as e Vide August lib. 3. contra Pâ—til cap. 16 Petilian dispraised Logick Rhethoricke because he himself was ignoâ—aÌ„t in those arts so doe our Sectaries contemne all Gentile learning and blame men that make vse of it because they themselues are ignorant therein The Englishman Is this the cause thinke you The Germaine Yes doubtles for as f Greg Nizianz in Mâ—nâ—d Nazianzene saith non vlla dispicienda disciplina cognitio cum de genere bonorum scientia sit omnis c. There is â—ot any knowledge of learning to be dispised seeing that all science what-soeuer is in the nature and kinde of good thinges Rather those that g Ipsam spermentes rustiâ—os et plane ignaues existimare de beâ—â—â— dispise it we must repute clownish and fluggish altogether who would be glad that all men were ignorant that their owne ignorance lying in the common heap might not be espyed The Englishman Well then they are like the Foxe that despiseth the Grapes which himselfe cannot reach The Germaine Nay they are rather like that olde Foxe a Vâ—lpecâ—lâ— câ—â—â—â— amissa reliquis â—â—lpâ—bus calliâ— pâ—rsuasit vt similiter et ipsa caâ—das resecarent â—â— sola â—â—rpis et deforâ—â—â— in suâ— generâ— viderâ—â—â—r Melanct. who hauing had a mischance and lost his tayle went straight way to the Beastes of the same kinde and fell to perswade theÌ„ euery one to cut of his tayle pleading the waightines and combersomnes of it with many the like circumstances but the matter comming throughly to bee examined and scand it was found that the craftie Foxe did it onely to couer his owne deformitie which if to be without tayles had once become a fashion should neuer haue beene â—spied But to speake in earnest there were other reasons besides this why our Sâ—ctaries dispise all Gentile and Prophane learning The Englishman What other The Germaine IT appeareth by the preface of Luther vpon the Epistle The 66. seÌ„blance to the Galathians that our Anabaptistes condeÌ„ned the graces and workes of God for the in digniâ—ie and vnworthynesse of the persons and subiects in whome they were found The Englishman So doe our Puritanes likewise contemne the writingeâ— of the Gentiles because the authors thereof were wicked prophane and superstitious Idolaters I speake what I knowe to be the opinion of some of them The Germaine To such may you fitly say as Ierome said to Ruffinus in his time volo sis api argumentosâ— similis c. I would haue thee like the wittie discoursing Bee which from a nettle gathereth hony But let vs leaue this particular and proceed in order to some other matter The Englishman No before I leaue this particular let me shew you how greately they esteeme of their owne writers The Germaine The 67. seÌ„blance VVHat doe they preferre them as our Anabaptists did theirs before the auncient fathers who were the verie pillers of Religion Christianity in their daies The Englishman Yes before all the best late writers too For the iustifying of whaâ— I haue said I will acquaint you with the expresse wordes of some of T. C. his proselytes and followers I thanke God quoth one b F. to 1 Aâ—â—â— Dom. 1586 of them I haue satisfied in part my longing with T. C. of whome I thinke at sheâ— did of Salomon Wee want Bookes c F to G Aâ—â—â— Dom. â—58â— said an other wherby we may come to the knowledge of the truth I meane T. C his Bookes Yea T. C. saith the DISPLAYER OF MEN IN THEIR COLOVRS is a man as well able to iudge as all the Lord Bishops in Christendomâ— Henserui regnant Famuli dominantur Asselli Ornantur phaleris de phalarantur equi But to proceede howsoeuer his Proselites account of his Bookes it is moste true that they are Puritan popish and thaâ— they haue indeede beene d Viruâ— eccles â—t râ—iâ— the verye poyson of Church and Common-wealth Not to conceale Doctor Whitaker his iudgement touching this point Quem Câ—rtwrightus saith he speaking of his second reply â—â—per emisit libellum 〈◊〉 magnam partem perlegi Ne viuamsi quid vnquam viderim dissolutius ac paene puerilius VerboruÌ„ satiâ— ille quidem lautam ac nouam supellectilem habet reruÌ„ omnino nullam quantum â—go iudicare possâ—m Deinde noÌ„ modo perâ—ersse de Principis in rebus sâ—cris atque ecclesiasticis authoritate sentit sed in papistarâ— etiam castra transfugit a quibus tameÌ„ videri vult idiâ— capitali dissidere Verâ—mne in hac causa ferendus et alijs etiam in partibus tela a papistis mâ—tâ—atur Denique vt dâ— Ambrosiâ— dixit Hiâ—ronimâ—s verbis â—â—dit planâ—que indignus est qui a quop aÌ„ docto confutetur That is I haue read ouer a great part of that Book which Cart wright hath lately published I pray God I liue not if euer I saâ—â— any thing more dissolute and almost more childish He hath ingreat store of plausible wordes but no substance as farre as I can iudge Furthermore he thinketh not onely perueâ—sly of the Princes authoritie in ecclesiasticall affaires but he flyeth into the very tents of the Papists from whome he would be thought to dissent with a deadly haâ—red But he is not to be suffered in this cause and in other partes he borroweth weapons from the Papists To conclude as Ieâ—ome said of Ambrose he playeth with wordes and is flatly vnworthy to be confuted of any learned man Loe this is the iudgement which this learned iudicious diuine gaue of T. C. his bookes which many now a dayes doe make as great account of as of Oracles And thus much concerning our Puritan-Popish teachers now let vs come to their Proselytes followers The Germaine To their Proselytes what haue they any Proselites The Englishman Yes they haue compassed sea and land haue made many their Proselites the children of error as deeply as themselâ—es The Germaine And indeed so did our Anabaptists too The Englishman Of what sorte I pray you were their Proselytes and followers The Germaine The 6â— seÌ„blance OF what sorte Master Bullinger telleth you that such of the vulger sort aâ— were of contentious natures Bullinger adâ—ers â—nabâ—p ioyned with them and commended their doings Amongst the rest there was one Iohn of Leyden a Towne in Holland hauing none other name by reason of his ignobility being but a Cobler by his occupation who came into the Citie of Munster which is the principall Citie of Westphalia a Pouince in Germany and there became an egregious Anabaptist The Englishman What! were your chiefe Cities pestred with Anabaptists The Germaine The 69. seÌ„blance
one Thâ—mâ—â— Muâ—cer in Germanye who taught that God euen in these daies doth reueale his will by dâ—eames visions and reuelations c Ipsemeâ— mihi coram prâ—misit c. Slâ—â—dan Câ—â— â— God saith hee hath waâ—â—aÌ„ted â—e face to face he that cannot lye hath commaunded me to attempt the change by these meanes euen by killing the Magistrâ—tes And Phifer his lewde companion did but dreame in the night time of the killing of many Mice presentâ—ye expounded his dreame of murthering the Nobles Yea at Sangallâ—â— a Towne in Switherland one of our Anabaptists did as d Suriuâ— in coment Sâ—â—ius reporteth cut off the head of his owne natural Brother the Parents to them both standing by And the reason which hee had for dooing it waâ— forsooth because it was commaunded him from aboue Now tell mee was there euer any such fellowes in England Englishman Yes there was one a See the conspâ—â— Page 42. Hacket that tolde the people that God had reuealed his will vnto him extraordinarily and that he had receiued an imediate calling from God to reforme the Church and to cal the whole world to repentance There was also a b Conspir pag 14. Puritan preacher that informed the said Hacket that God doth wil from time to time rayse vp extraordinary workes and helpers to his Church as Apostles Euang elistâ— and Prophets where neede requireth And for the proofe of this his opinion hee produced the example of one that cryedvp and downe the streetes in Ierusalem before it was besiedged The Germaine Yea but was this Hacket a Puritane your Puritanes happily will not acknowledge him to be one of their side The Englishman Yes that hee was a Puritane it may appeare by these his Puritane trickes viz 1. c For the proof of al these particulars following I referre you to a Booke extant entiâ—â—led the conspiracie of preteÌ„ded reformation page 4. 1â— 14. 34. 3â— He followed such Preachers at did fitte his humor and would not heare Maister Ray the Preacher of the Townew here he dwelt 2. Hee burned in desire of reforming the Church and Common-wealth 3. Hee had some of the Bretheren to fast with him before he attempted his reformation 4. Hee purposed to plant in euery congrâ—gation an clder shippe or consistone of Doctors Pastâ—rs Lay-â—lders and widowes 5 He rayled on the Bishops and on all other that withstood this his reformation But what need I stand to proue this who knoweth not how that hee and his two counterfet Prophets the selfe-same day they arose in Cheap-side tolde the said Puritan-preacher in the morning that reformation and the Lords discipline should then forth-with he established They did also charge him to put all Christians in comforte that they should shortly see a ioyfull alteration in the state of the Church-gouernment Thus you see how that we haue confitentemreum the confession of his owne lips against him-selfe so that there needs no more to doe as Dauid spake to the young man that brought newes of the death of Saul Os tuum contra te loqutum est thine owne mouth hath spoken against thee The Germaine Yea but was that Preacher a Puritane that auouched extraordinary callings by the example of him that cryed vp and downe the streetes of Hierusalem before it was besiedged The Englishman Yes for hee was d See the conspir pag. 2 Vicar of Sâ—dbergo and Dent in the Northern partes and for his intolerable insolencies and contempt of the gouernment of the Church was both depriued of that his Benefice and deposed from the Ministerie by the authoritie of our late Soueraignes Commission for causes Ecclesiasticall But to proceede in order did there euer arise vp amongest the Anabaptists any such like Prophets as these were The Germaine Yes in the month of Iuly Anno Dom. 1533. a new Prophet beeing a Gold-smith by his trade arose vp amongst them who called the multitude together into the market-place and signified vnto them that it was the will of God that Iohn of Lâ—yden should be Emperour of all the Earth and that hee should destroye all Princes and Potentates but spare the common people that loued sinceritie The Englishman As your Iohn of Leyden was Proclaimed Emperour by the Golde-smith Anno Dom. 1533. so was a See the conspir Page 66. Hacket proclamed King by his counterfet Prophets the 33. yere of the Raigne of our late Soueraigne Queene of famous memory But proceed on I pray you in this matter The Germaine IN the said yere of our Lord about the end of December The 81. seÌ„blance one of our Anabaptists pretending himselfe to be diuinely inspired and rauished in spirit did goe through the street of the Citie of Munster crying Repent repent and be againe Baptized or else the iudgement and wrath of God will quickely or suddenly fall vpon you The Englishman So in the said yeere of our late Queenes raigne vpon the 16. of Iuly in the morning did b See the consp pag. 55. 56. the Annales of England collected by Iohn Stowe pag. 1288. Hackets said Prophets goe from one Walkers house neere vnto Broken-Wharfe in London and going from thence by Watlingstreete Olde-Change toward Cheapside cryed out and said Christ Iesus is come with his Fanne in his hand to iudge the earth Repent England repent repent But now to conclude this whole discourse what other outragious villanie committed your Anabaptists The Germaine The 82. seÌ„blance Truely they joyned their forces together and made an insurrection as you may read in Sleidan and in other of our Germaine writers The Englishman So did Hacket likewise commit Treason against our late Queenes Majestie in the three and thirtith yeare of her Raigne and for the same was arraigned on the 26. of Iuly immediately following and c See the Annales of England pag. 1289 by twâ— seuerall inditements found guiltie as to haue vttered and spoken diuers moste false trayterous wordes against her Maiesty to haue raced and defaced her Maiesties Armes as also a certaine Picture of the Queenes Maiestie and did malicionsly and trayterously thrust an iron instrument into that parte of the said Picture that did represent the Breast and Heart of the Queens Maiestie God Almightle who preserued her Majestie from the Trayterous stratagems of all her enemies and gathered her to her Fathers in peace Preserue him likewise that sitteth on her Throne after her and when he is gathered to his Fathers the woe whereof fall vpon an other age let him goe to rest with greater tokens of his fauour then euer to fall into the handes of such Anabaptisticall Puritanes oâ— any other Trayterous enemies The Germaine Euen so Lord Iesu Amen Amen Puritano-papismus OR A Discouerie of Puritan-papisme made by way of Dialogue or conference betweene a Protestant and a Puritane The 1. Dialogue Wherein is plainely shewed that the Puritanes haue in sundry things ioyned with the Pharisies Apostolickes Aerians Pepuzians Petrobrusians Florinians Cerinthians
on the Popes side in this matter His wordes are these c lib. 2. page 48. The Christian Soueraigne ought not to be called the hoad vnder Christ of the particular and visible Churches within his Dominions The Puritane But doe any of our writers spoy le the Ciuil Magistrate of all gouernment in Ecclesiastical matters as the Papists doe The Protestant Yes the Admonitors say in plaine tearmes that d Admon page 126. to these three ioyntly that is the Ministers Seniors and Deacons is the whole regiment of the Church to be committed Now if the whole gouernment of the Church be to be committed to Ministers Seniors and Deacons what authoritie remaineth to the ciuill Magistrate in the gouernment of it The Puritane a These are the words of T. C. page 153. I answere in the name of the Authors of the Admonition that the Prince and ciuill Magistrate hath to see that the lawes of God touching his worship and touching all matters and orders of the Church be executed and duely obserued and to see that euery Ecclesiasticall person doe that office whereunto he is appointed and to punish those which faile in their office accordingly As for the making of the orders and ceremonies of the Church they do where there is a constâ—â—uted and ordered Church pertaine to the Ministers of the Church c. The Protestant I reply with the wordes of the late Reuerend Archbishop b In his defence of the answere to the Admon page 694. 695. 696. VVhat no more but to see them executed how differeth this from Papists The Papists giue to the Christian Magistrate in Ecclesiasticallmatters potestatem facts noniuris that is to see those lawes executed and put in practise that the Pope and his Cleargie shall make and to be as it were their executioner but not to make any lawes in Ecclesiasticall matters for doth not Saunders a popish writer say the same c saunders fol. 64. Although I do not deny saith he that the knowledge of a fact that belongeth to the Ecclesiasticall lawe may be committed to Kinges and Magistrates and before the Ecclesiasticall cause be determined the King may vse his authoritie to this ende that there may bee some quiet place prepared where the Bishops shall consult and that the Bishops be called to the same place at a certaine day and that in the meane time while the matter is in determining common peace may bee preserued euen among the Priestes themselues To conclude after the cause be determined and iudged by the Priestes the King may punish him with the sword which hee carieth not in vaine or by some other corporall punishment which shalrefuse to obey the sentence of the Priestes a Muscul in locis com-tituâ— de magistratu Musculus also setteth out this Popish opinion touching the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall affaires very plainly in these wordes Those whome they call Ecclesiasticall Persons and wee call them Papists will not commit to the Magistrate any further authoritie in Religion then to bee the keeper and reuenger of it and of their Ecclesiasticall Lawes that the Ecclesiasticall polliciâ— may remaine immoouable wherefore they deny hin to haue authoritie in that hee is a Magistrate to make or to publish any Ecclesiasticall lawes because such thinges pertaine to those that do represent the Church whose decrees and constitutions must bee maintained and defended by the authoritie of the Magistrate But to leaue this resemblance what arguments doe the Popish Doctors vse against the Princes authoritie in causes Ecclefiasticall The Puritane b Sanders lib. 2 cap. 1. fol. 27. Saunders c Harding against the Apologie fol. 118. Harding and other of them do quote 2 Chron. 198. 11. which place maketh indeede fully against them for Iehosaphat had chiefe authoritie and gouernment both in thinges pertaining to the Church and in thinges pertaining to the Common-wealth but for better execution of them the one hee did commit to bee executed by Amaziah the Priest the other by Zebadiah a Ruler of the house of Iuda euen as the Kings Maiestie being in all causes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall within these his Realmes and Dominions supreame gouernour committeth the hearing and iudging of Ecclesiasticall matters to the Reuerend Fathers of the Church and of Temporall matters to the Right honourable the Lord Chancelour and other Iudges Now had Iehosaphat nothing to doe with Church-matters because he made Amaziah Priest iudge in the same they may as well say that bee had nothing to doe in Temporall affaiers because he also appointed Zebadiah to heare and determine them The Protestant True and yet T. C. quoteth the selfe same place to prooue the selfe same thing a T. C. page 145. sect 1. looke saith he in the second Booke of the Cronicles in the 19. Chap. and in the 8. and 11. verses and you shall see that there were a number appointed for the matters of the LORD which were Priestes and Leuits and there were other also appoynted for the Kinges affayers and for matters of the CommoÌ„-wealth c. The Puritane But in what other thinges agree we with the Papists The Protestant 1. The Papists would not haue the scriptures read in the Church to the people No more would your Puritane-popish writers for b In their viewe of po Pish abuses remaining fol. 2. they blush not to say that reading is no feeding but as euil as playing vpon a Stage and worse too 2. The Papists condemne our Book of common prayers set out by publique authoritie and the whole order of seruice so doe you 3. The papists say that our Sacraments are not rightly ministred so say you likewise as hath beene already shewed 4. The Papists say that we haue no right ministerie in England no Pastours no Bishops because they be not rightly and canonically called to these functions the selfe same doe you affirme as hath also beene shewed 5. The Papists auouch that we are not the true church no that wee haue not so much as the outward face and shew of the true Church the selfe same thing do your Puritan-popish teachers auouch in their first Admonition page 33. and in their second admonition page 6. The Puritane All this notwithstanding we come farre short of the Papists for Popery is as a â— Bâ—in his toyle for 2. legged Foxes chap. 3. one truely saith an hotch-potch and miserable mingle-mangle of all Sathans forgeries and diuelish heresies VVith Carpocratian Heretickes they set vp the image of Christ and other Saints with the Anthropomorphits they painâ— God the Father like an olde man with a gray beard with the Pelagian Heretickes they maintaine free will power to iustifie our selues and to fulfill the commandements with the Messalians they mumble their Mattens Pater nosters and seauen Psalmes by number vpon a payre of Beades with the Tatians Cataphryges Montanistes and Ebionites they seeke sanctification in eating and not eating in marrying
contemned our Superintendents beheld with disdaine their Titles and Offices The Englishman The Titles and Offices of Arch-bishoppes and Bishops are more auncient and necessarye then the Titles and Offices of Superintendents are for the Apostle Peter did as Clemens hath obserued appoint in a Clemens in CompeÌ„diario Christiana Religion euery Prouince one Arch-bishop whome all other Bishops of the Prouince should obey And wee reade that Dyonisius Areopagita was b Volusus epist ad Nichol. 1. Archbishoppe of Athens and appointed thereunto by Saint Paul that Timothie was c Chrysost in 1. Timoth. 5. Bishoppe of Ephesus that Titus was d Chrysost in 1. Tit. Bishop of Creta that Saint Iohn e Euseb lib. 3 cap. 23. gouerned the Church in Asia after his returne from Pathmos that Iames was f Euseb lib. 2. cap. 23. Bishoppe of Ierusalem that Polycarpe was g Tertul. de Prescript Bishoppe of Smirna that Demetrius was h Euseb lib. 6 cap. 1 Bishoppe of Alexandria that Saint Cyprian was i cyprian lib 4 Epist 8. Bishoppe of Carthage that Saint Gregory was k Euseb lib. 7. cap. 14. Bishop of Pontus that Saint Chrysostome was l Theod. lib. 5. cap. 28. Archbishoppe of Constantinople that Theodoret was m Theod. epist ad Leon. Bishoppe of Cyprus And in Elutherius his time which was Anno Dom. 180. when this Realme was first conuerted to Christianitie there was as Maister Fox n Tom. 1. page 146. acknowledgeth appointed in the same three Archbishoppes and 28. Bishops All which notwithstanding the fauourites of the new fangle-faction would haue instead of Arch-bishoppes an equalitie of Ministers If you wiâ— restore the Church say the Admonitors to his auncient Officers this you must doe instead of an Arch-bishoppe or Lord Bishoppe you must make equalitie of Ministers Yea o T. C. lib 2 page 438. the learnedst of them is not ashamed to write that Archbishops and Bishoppes are new Ministeries neuer ordained by God The Germaine The 20. seÌ„blance A Although p Gerlachius in Hyper. Dan. page 30. the Anabaptists pretended the forenamed equalitie yet they sought Dominion laboured onely to pull the rule from others that the rule might haue boâ—â—e in their owne handes and that they onelye might haue borne the sway The Englishman That our Puritanes doe the like I prooue it by the late Archbishops experience You desire saith a In his deseÌ„ce of the answere to the Admonition page 459. hee this equalitie not because you would not rule for it is manifest that you seeke it moste ambitiously in your manner but because you condemne and disdaine to bee ruled and to bee in subiection Indeede your meaning is as I said before to rule and not to be ruled to doe what you list in your seuerall cures without controlement of Prince Bishoppe or any other And therefore pretending equalitie most disorderly you seek Dominion I speake that I knowe by experience in some of you But let vs see what other speeches they deliuered against your ecclesiasticall Magistrates The 21. seÌ„blance The Germaine VVHat needes so many wordes b Gerlacius in Hyper Dan. Page 30. Gerlachius telleth you that they disdained them scorned them rayled on them The Englishman Yea but they haue not come neere our Puritanes in this point I will acquaint you with some of their speeches which they haue belched out against the Reuerend Fathers of our Church They c See their Booke inituled Hay yee any worke page 14. 15. 20. 21 blush not to say that Archbishoppes and Bishops are superfluous members of the body of Christ that they maime and deforme his body making it by that meanes a Monster that they are vnlawfull false and bastardly gouernours of the Church that they are ordinances of the Deuill that they are in respect of their places enemies of God that they are Petty Popes pettie Antichristes Bishoppes of the Deuill that the lawes that maintaine Archbishops Bishops are no more to be accounted of then the lawes that maintaine stewes that the true church of God ought to haue no more to doe with them their Sinagogues then with the sinagogues of Sathan But not to interrupt your speech any longer what was the câ—use that the Anabaptists railed on your church-gouernors The Germaine The 22. seÌ„-blance SVrely a Bulling advers Anabap. Fol. 19. 95. 242. because they endeuoured to bring them to conformitie by compulsion The Englishman By the orders of our Church and lawes of the Realme there is required of our Ministers a subscriptioÌ„ to his Majestres lawfull authority in causes Ecclesiasticall to the Articles of Religion to the Booke of Common Prayer and to the orders Rites Ceremonies of our Church Now because our Church-gouernours do according to their duetie depriue those of their liuings that refuse to subscribe heerunto The Puritanes doe complaine of rigor and reuile Gods high Priest which Saint b Act. 23. 5. Paul repented hee had ignorantly done though that high Priest was an vsurper I confesse indeede that they haue yeilded to subscribe to c See their petition to the King the Articles of Religion and to the Kings suprmacie but this is not sufficient for it is a thing too manifest with what libelling and rayling the forme of our Seruice of our Ceremonies of our apparell c. hath beene depraued and shamefully slaundered by these factious Sprits They haue blazed and diuulged abroade as shall heereafter be shewed more at large that the Communion Booke was culled and picked out of the Popish dunghill the Masse Booke that it is Papisticall that it were better to conforme our selues in outward thinges to the Turkes then to the Papists It behooueth therfore the reuerend Fathers of our Church to compell them to subscribe not onely to the Articles of Religion and to the Kinges supremacy but to the Communion Booke also and to the Discipline of our Church Neyther ought they to thinke that they are too rigorously dealt withal if that they be compelled vrged to shew their conformitie in all thinges seeing that the same course is taken in all other Churches for the repressing of schisme To insist onely in one particular whosoeuer is made Minister at Geneua he sweareth to keepe a Vide leges Geneuens Fol. 3. all their Ecclesiasticall ordinances Yea we reade b Vide Bezam in vita Caluin that Maister Caluin procured a generall oath to be taken through out the whole Cittie of Geneua for the approbation therof Now why should not our Reuerend Bishops haue as free libertie to doe the like But tell mee did not your Anabaptists require a secret subscription of their followers The Germaine Yes although they would not yeild their conformitie with vs in obseruing the good lawes and ordinances of our Church yet priuatlie as c Sleidan L. 6 Sleidan reporteth they gaue their mutuall faith and oath each to other The Englishman The 23.
great encouragement vnto them as that they challenged the sound Preachers to disputation The Englishman It hapened also amongst vs that diuers Ministers who as they a In their Petition to the King themselues haue confessed had subscribed to the orders of our Church fell away from their former loue and liking therof and joyned with the Puritane-faction But you tell mee that your Anabaptists did challenge your Preachers to dispute with them was there any publique disputation graunted them The Germaine NO and for this cause they greatly complayned and The 35. seÌ„blance cryed out that the truth was oppressed that innocent and Godly men which would haue had all things reformed according to the word of God could not be heard nor haue libertie to speake and that Maister Zuinglius stopped their mouthes and defended his cause not by the word of God but by the authoritie of the Magistrate The Englishman b See their Book intituled the State of the Church of England Page 38. So doe our Sectaries likewise crye out that the Clincke the Gate-house the White-lyon and the Fleete haue beene our onely arguments wherby wee haue prooued our cause these many yeares But I pray you did your Ministers conferre with your Anabaptists did they vse no meanes to reclaime them The Germaine Yes although there was no publique disputatioÌ„ granted them yet did they conferre with them from time to time therby to reclaime them from their errors The Englishman I pray you what kinde of arguments vsed they The Germaine Truely insteed of sound and sustantiall arguments they vsed sophisticall fallacies The Englishman I doe thinke that your Anabaptists doe not come neere our Puritanes in this point The Germaine Why doe you not thinke it The Englishman Because our Puritanes doe thinke that they haue Logicke enough when they haue read and conned ouer Ramus his Logicke and so consequently they often vse fallacies before euer they be aware They cannot forsooth endure to read Aristotles golden Booke de sophisticis Elanchis The Germaine What are some of your Students trained vp in Peter Ramus The Englishman Yes as it was the wisdome of the a Dan. 1. 41 King of Babylon to take young Children of Israell whome hee might teach the learning and tongue of Chaldea rather then their olde men so it is the wisdome of some Ramisticall Tutors to season our greene vessels with this liquor of Puritanisme that they may keepe the taste thereof while life remaineth But not to interrupt your speech what fallacies vsed they The Germaine The 36. seÌ„blance THey vsually reasoned ab eo quod est secundum quid ad â—d quod est simpliciter The Englishman I must intreate you to expresse your minde more plainely that I may vnderstand your meaning The Germaine My meaning is this they vsually reasoned after this manner a vide Bulling aduers anabap fol. 9. 18. Such and such thinges were not in the Apostles dayes therfore they ought not to be in these dayes The Englishman This fallacie hath been the originall and Wel-spring of many both olde and new schismes of olde as of them that called themselues Apostolicos and of the Aerians of new as of the Anabaptists Brownists Puritanes and others To insist onely in the Puritanes we must say b Admon 1. Page 105 they haue Surplesses deuised by Pope Ardian Interrogatories ministred to the Infant God-fathers and God-mothers brought in by Higinus holy Fonts inuented by Pope Pius crossing such like pieces of popery which the Church of God in the Apostles time neuer knewe and therfore they are not to be vsed The Germaine The 37. seÌ„blance OVr c Arist de sophisticis Elench Lib. 1. cap. 5. Anabaptists vsed an other erronious kinde of reasoning which Aristotle calleth To en arche aiteisthai which is when a man frameth vnto himselfe certaine principles of his owne deuising grounded neyther vpon authoritie neyther yet vpon substantiall reason and then vpon the same will conclude his purpose The Englishman This fallacie hath also been the foundation of many both olde and new schismes of olde as of the Aerians who forsooke the Church because therein were some thinges vsed which Heritickes had abused of new as of the Anabaptists Brownists Puritanes and others To insist againe in the Puritanes onely they commit this fallacie in vsing these two false Principles the one when they say that to be inuented by the late Popes which was not inuented by them the other when they say that nothing may be vsed in the Church of Christ which is vsed in the Church of Rome To begin with the first they commit this fallacie when they say that the Surplesse was deuised by Pope Adrian for the Godly Fathers of the Church in the purest estate thereof haue left it in writing how that the Ministers in their times did vsually put on white garments in the execution of diuine Seruice and in the celebration of the blessed Sacraments For proofe heereof I referre you to Saint a Chrysost ad Populum AntiocheÌ„ Hom. 6. Chrisostome to Saint b Hieron Lib. 13. in Ezchiel 44. et in Lib. 1. aduers Pelagium cap. 9. Ierome and to the c Concil Carthaginens can 46. Councell of Carthage at which were present two hundred fourteene Bishops But what do I mention these times it was vsed in the very dayes of the Apostles as is aparant by the testimonie of Hegesippus who as Saint d Hierom. de sriptorib Ecclesiast Ierome saith liued neere the Apostles time His testimony is this e Hegesip lib. 5. Comment when Iames who was sir-named Iustus went into the Temple he was f Linea non lánea veste in duebatur appareled with a linnen not with wollen vesture Againe they commit this fallacie when they say that God-fathers God-mothers were brought in by Higinus for they were in g Dyonis Areopag lib. 7. de Ecclesiast Hierarchia Dyonis Areopagita his time who liued in the time of the Apostles they haue continued in all pure times since as apeareth by sundry learned h Tertul. aduers MarcioneÌ„ lib. 3. Idem de praescrip aduers hareticos at in lib. de resurrectione carnis Chrysost in Psal 14 â— Cyprian lib. 1. post 6. August epist ad Bonifacium et lib. de Rectitud Catholica conuersationis Isider de officij ecclesiast writers They do also commit this fallacie when they say that crossing in Baptisme is a piece of Poperie for it was vsed in the Church of God within the compasse of three hundred yeares after Christ which was long before the Mysterie of iniquitie bid begin to worke and hath beene vsed in the Church of God euer since For the justifying of what I haue said I referre you to the writings of i Tertull. de corona miletis et lib. 3. aduersus Marc. â—â— Tertullian k Iustin Martyr ad Orthodox quast 1. 18. Iustine Martyr l Cyprian
Sonne in the faith grace mercy and peacâ— from God our Father and Christ Iesus our Lord. To prooue that Arch-bishops c. and their Offices came out of the Popes shoppe c Admon pag. 209. they quote Luke 16. 25. But Abraham said Sonne remember that thou in thy life time receiuedst thy pleasures and likewise Lazarus paines now therefore is hee comforted and thou art tormented To prooue that there ought to be an â—quality of Ministers d Amon. 1. page 124. sect 1. they quote in their Margent 2. Cor. 10. 7. Looke yee on thinges after the appearance If any trust in himselfe that he is Christes let him consider this againe of himselfe that as he is Christes euen sâ—â—re â—e Christes To prooue that Ministers should not weare Cappes Gownes c but that they should bee knowne by their voice learning and Doctrine e Admon 1. page 53. sect vit they quote Math. 26. 48. Now hee that betrayed him had giuen them a token saying whosoeuer I shall kisse that is hee lay holde on him And verse 73. They that stoode by said vnto Peter surely thou art also one of theÌ„ for euen thy speech beâ—rayeth thee To prooue that tyranous Lordshipe as it pleaseth them to call it cannot stand with Christes King dome f In the preface of the Admonition they quote Math. 15. 23. But 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 her not a word Then came to him his Disciples â—â—d besought him saying send her away for the cryeth after vs. And Luke 16. 15. Then he sayd vnto them ye are they which iustifie your selues before men but God knoweth your hearts To prooue that eâ—â—ry congregation haâ— their Deâ—cons a Admon pag. 114. sect 2. they quote Iohn 13. 27. And after the soppe Sathan entred into him Then said Iesus vnto him That thou doest doe quickely To prooue that ciuill offices joyned to the Ecclesiasticall are against the word of God b Admon pag. 216. sect 1. they quote Luke 9. 60. 61. And Iesus said vnto him let the dead bury the dead c. And 1. Timoth. 6. 11. But thou ô man of God flee these thinges and followe after righteousnesse Godlinesse faith loue patience and meekenesse To prooue that no ceremonie order discipline or kinde of gouernement may bee in the Church of God which the Scripture hath not in particular set downe T. C. c T. C. page 41. sect 1. quoteth 1 Cor 10. 31. Whether ye eate or drink or whatsoeuer ye doe doe all to the glory of God with these a thousaÌ„d such like places are their Margents pestred Now râ—duce euery one of these into a Syllogisticall forme and you shall see many a rediculous sequele The Germaine I see alreadie how ridiculous they are The Englishman Well then proceed to an other matter The Germaine The 40. seÌ„blance OVr Aâ—â—â—â—â—tists vsed an other fallaâ—ie which d Arist de Sophist Elench lib. 1. cap. 5. Aristotle calleth agnâ—â—antou elegchou which is committed when eyther the stâ—te of the question is changed or when the aduersarie iâ— opposing doth violate the lawe of oposition and disputâ—th not ad idem To make this plaine Zuinglius tooke vpon him to defend that some externall things may be brought into the Church which are not expressed in the Scriptures and they replyed as if he had said that some thinges necessary to saluation might haue been brought into the Church which are not in the Scriptures For they alleagâ—d Math. 1â— 19. To which reply of theirs Zuingliâ—s thus answereth a Zuingliuâ— dâ— Baptismâ— I speake not as you say me to speake I speake onely of externall and indifferent thinges wherof there be many which are neyther commaunded nor forbiddeÌ„ by any expresse word of God c. and againe for this that wâ— speake of is not necessarie vnto saluation but it is externall c. The Englishman b T. C. pag. 79. sect vlt. T. C. objected vnto the late Arch-bishope the selfe same text for the selfe same purpose to which objection of his the fore-named reuerend man answereth with Zuinglius The c Admon pag. 30. sect 2. admonitors also to prooue that those thinges onely are to be placed in Gods Church which God himselfe in his word commaundeth do quote Deâ—t 4. 2. Ye shall put nothing to the word which I commaâ—â—d you â— And Deut. 12. 32. Whatsoeuer I commaund you take heed ye doe it thou shalt put nothing thereto Thus you see that wheras we defend that matters of order gouernement and Discipline c. may bee vsed in the Church though they be not laide downe in the Scriptures they aleadge places against vs which onely prooue that we must not in matters of saluation adde any thing which may not bee gathered from the sacred Scriptures But what other false arguments vsed they The Germaine The 41. seÌ„blance THey drewe arguments from the authoriâ—â—e of the Scripture negatiuely for which cause d Zuinglius in Elencho Zuinglius thus reprooueth them You can finde no hole to escape at for you foolishly reason negatiâ—ely c. And againe you make the negatiue onely your foundation The Englishman e A testimoniâ— diuino valet argumentum affirmatâ—é negatiuè Keckâ—em lib. 3. System Logic cap. 16. A testimonie drawne from the authoritie of the Scriptures holdeth saith a late learned Lâ—â—itian both affirmatiuely and negatiuely but this maxime of his must be thus limited tenet in rebus subst antialibus non in accidentalibus that is an argument drawne from the authoritie of the Scriptures in reasoning about things substantiall or matters of saluation and damnation holdeth both affirmatiuely and negatiuely as for example God hath not layd downe this or that thing in scripture as a matter of saluation therfore it is not a matter of saluation But an argument drawne from the authority of the Scriptures negatiuely in reasoning about thinges accidentall or ceremoniall is of noe force And yet our Sectaries haue commonly vsed this kind of reasoning for which cause our late a In his defence of the answere to the Admon page 590. 591. reuerend Arch-bishop compared them to your Anabaptists But to leaue this particular what other sophistrie vsed your Anabaptists The Germaine What other Truely they immitated the Deuill that graund Sophister The Englishman The Deuill Wherin I pray you The Germaine When the Deuill had taken vp Christ into the holy Cittie and had set him on a pinacle of the Temple he began to dispute with him saying b Math. 4 5. If thou be the sonne of God cast thy selfe downe for it is written that he will giue his Angels charge ouer thee and with their hands they shal lift thee vp least at any time thou shouldest dash thy foote against a stone Loe heere the Deuill tooke vpon him to prooue that Christ could not possibly breake his neck though hee should throw himselfe head-long from the pinacle of the Temple The place which he aleaged for
and so giue them that reuerence which is due to the Messengers of God But to let this passe I pray you what busiâ—es haue you at the Parliament The Puritane I am the mouth of my Brethren to the Honorable Senate of Parliament that some of our Ecclesiasticall lawes may be repealed and changed The Protestant Were I worthy to bee the mouth of my Brethren to that Honorable Senate I would make humble sute that you might be seuerely punished for seeking to repeale change those lawes which were enacted by graue and learned men You would not be so busie with your Billes at the Parliament if that law were of force amongst vs which as b Demost coÌ„tr◠〈◊〉 Demosteâ—es testifieth was of force amongst the Locrians viz That he that should offer â—o repeale and change aâ—â—cient lawes and put vp new should come with a Halter about his Neck to the Parliament that if there were better reason against his Lawes he should be hanged vp for his â—olde attempt The Puritane I would be 〈◊〉 a 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The Protestant Well follow your owne 〈◊〉 yet let me tel you with a Seneca in 〈◊〉 Seneca that it is not good to be busie in a will ordered state But I pray you make Auricular confession vnto me tell me in myne eare haue you no other businesse at the Parliament The Puritane Yes if we cannot procure an alteration of the Iewes we will make sute for a dispensation The Protestant I cannot see how it may stand with equitie that some should be bound to shewe their conformitie and obedience to Lawes and others be dispensed with It is Seneca his saying b Seneca in Epist Acqualitas prima pars aequitatis est Equalitie is the first and chiefe part of Equitie Againe such a dispensation would breed diuision For a diuision in Lawes maketh a diuision in Kingdomes and causeth partaking among the people and chusing of sides and therwithall strife enuy emulations contentions and a thousand other such mischiefes And as diuision in Lawes causeth diuision in Kingdomes so diuision in King-domes causeth the ouerthrow and subuersion of King-domes For it is a sure principle and maxime which our Sauiour giueth in the Gospell A kingdome diuided against it selfe cannot stand Now if the Kingdome of Sathan diuided against it selfe cannot stand how can a Kingdome of flesh and blood and of motrall men But though no such danger were likely to ensue vpon such a tolleration and conniuencie yet it standeth not with any conueniencie that one people within the same land and vnder the same gouernment should bee vnder diuers lawes It is 〈◊〉 his saying and it is an Oracle for truth that they ought to be vnder one Law that are vnder the gouernement of one King a Curtius lib. 10. Eiusdem iuris saith hee esse debent quisub eodem rege victuri sunt It is also the iudgement of auncient fathers that all those that liue in the same Church together should bee vnder Law indifferently and should bee enforced by the Lawe to accommodate themselues to the customes of the place wherin they liue In his rebus saith Saint b August Epist 86. Augusten de quibus nihil certi statuit scriptura diuina mos populi Dei vel instituta maioruÌ„ pro lege tenenda sunt And in another place c Aug. Epist 218. Quod neque contra fidem neque contra bones mores iniungitur indifferenter est habendum et pro corum inter quos viuitur societate seruandum est And Saint Ierome holdeth it very meete that Ecclesiasticall traditions namely such as doe not hinder faith should bee obserued as they are deliuered of our Elders that the custome of one should not be ouerthrowne with the contrarie customes of others His words are these d Hieron ad Luciuium Traditiones ecclesiasticas praesertim quae fidei non officiunt ita obseruandas vt a maioribus traditae sunt nec aliorum consuetudinem aliorum contrario modo subuerti With these auncient Fathers of the Church our latter writers goe hand in hand Gwalther writing vpoÌ„ the first to the Corinthians saith thus e Gualther in 1. Cor. 5. Let euery Church followe the manner of Disciplyne which dooth moste agree with the people place and time And in the Preface to the same Epistle he saith that in rites and ceremonies there can bee no better rule for a graue and wise Christian then that he doe after that manner the which he seeth vsed of the Church vnto the which he shall paraduenture come And Hemmingius holdeth it an haynous sinne to break the ordinances of the Church f HeÌ„mingius in syntag cap. de adiaphoris Qui violat saith hee ecclesiasticam politiam pec at multis modis Zanchius also propoundeth vs this rule to obserue that in externall thinges wee would applye our selues to the customes of the Countries where wee conuerse I will acquaint you with his wordes a Zanchius de operibus Dei part 3. l. 4. c 2 Tenenda stregula Apostoli de his externis rebus quae etiaÌ„ apud Gentiles visitate sunt vt quae non pugnant cum verbo Dei nullam redolent vel superstitionem vel faeditatem eaâ— pro more consuetudine regionis vbi degimus vna cum alijs obseruemus Further if you please to heare Doctor Whitakers hee is no colde aduocate Proctor in this point He doubteth not to say that the Church hath authoritie to make Lawes in causes ecclesiasticall and to inioyne men to obserue them and to punish the refusers I will giue you his expresse words b Whitak controuers 3. de concil quaest 1. Habuit Ecclesia semper authoritatem lâ—ges Ecclesiasticas condendi sanciendi easque alijs imperandi eos puniendi qui non obseruarent As for Maister Perkins he is so far froÌ„ exempting any froÌ„ shewing their coÌ„formity obedieÌ„ce to yâ— good lawes of the Church as that hee holdeth them guilty of sinne before God that doe wittingly and willingly with a disloyall minde eyther breake or omit them His wordes are these c perkins in his treatise of conscience Wholesome Lawes of men made of thinges indifferent so far foorth bind conscience by vertue of the generall commaundement of God which ordaineth the Magistrates authoritie that whosoeuer shall wittingly and willingly with a disloyall minde eyther breake or omit such Lawes is guiltie of sinne before GOD And in an other place of the same treatise The Lawes which the Church in proper speech is said to make are dicrees concerning outward order and comelinesse in the administration of the word and Sacraments in the meetinges of the Congregation c. And such Lawes made according to the generall rules of Gods word which requires that all thinges be done to edification in comelinesse for the auoyding of offence are necessarie to be obserued and the word of God bindes d It dispenses with none all men to them so farre foorth aâ— the keeping of them maintaines decent order and preuents open offence But what neede I drawe mine arguments from the Cisternes of humane authoritie It is the Apostles direction that we should a Phil. â— 16 all proceede by one rule and minde one thing that wee should b 1. Cor. 1. 10. all bee knit together in one minde and in one iudgement and that we should c Phil. 1. 27. all continue in one spirit and in one minde God Almightie whose work alone it is that those who dwell together in one house shall bee of one minde so magnifie his work amoÌ„gst vs yâ— we who dwell together in one Kingdome may now at length be of one minde and liue in peace And thus I leaue you wishing first of all your conformitie if that cannot be had my next wish is that you were dealt withall as Phillip of Macedon dealt with two of his subjects in whom there was little hope of grace d Alterum â— Macedonia fugere alterum persequi iussâ—t hee made one of them to runne out of the countrie and the other to driue him So his people were rid of both FINIS