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cause_n	authority_n	ecclesiastical_a	power_n	2,792	5	5.0447	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88107	The nevv quere, and determination upon it, by Mr. Saltmarsh lately published, to retard the establishment of the Presbyteriall government, examined, and shewed to be unseasonable, unsound, and opposite to the principles of true religion, and state. Whereunto is annexed a censure of what he hath produced to the same purpose, in his other, and later booke, which he calleth The opening of Master Prinnes Vindication. And an apologeticall narrative of the late petition of the Common Councell and ministers of London to the Honourable Houses of Parliament, with a justification of them from the calumny of the weekly pamphleters. / By John Ley, one of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster.	Ley, John, 1583-1662.	1645 (1645)	Wing L1885; Thomason E311_24; ESTC R200462	96,520	124

both ingenuous and religious correspondence doth dispose them for no where in the Protestant Churches so farre as I have read or received by report are good Ministers better accepted of or more respectively used then in this City nor by any Citizens more then by those who are most worthy of honour and is cannot but be the desire as well as the duty of godly Ministers to advance them as much as may be in the estimation of the people and to presse upon them obedience according to their duty and dependence for conscience sake And though it be obvious to common observation how much the Magistrates favour maketh for the Ministers honour and succour it is not unknowne nor unobserved by the wise that the Ministers have been very serviceable to the Civill State and to the Military too not onely by their supplications to God for good successe to all their publique undertakings and their happy proceedings in all their warlike marches and motions as at the removall of the Arke Numb 10.35 Rise up Lord and let thine enemies be scattered let them that hate thee flee before thee but by their informations and soli●itations of the people to engage both their estates and persons in the Cause of God and their Countrey and I could name such at have b●●● looked on by the blood sh●tten ●yes of professed enemies and fained by them by way of most hatefull repr●ach at the Authours of the Rebellion of whole Counties that is in the true sense of their charge the perswaders of them not to betake themselves to a divided party but to unite in the union of the King and Parliament And I am sure that some of them who have been envied and reviled in Print by libellous Schismaticks as growing rich upon the revenues of fat sequestrations when by a just accompt they have come short of a competent subsistence have been offered both riches and honour in the Kings name by persons of eminent degree to imploy their parts in his Majesties service the termes were no worse the intention likely not so good and have modestly and yet resolutely refused them then when it seemed both most profitable and honourable to a●cept them and not a little dangerous to withstand rewards when there was power to call for observance by minatory commands And it was then an advantage visible enough which the King had above the Parliament as the Pope hath above a Councell that the dispo●all of Church dignities was held in right and exercised in fact as a branch of the Royall Prerogative whence arose the Proverbe which made so many Ecclesiasticall Courtiers No fishing to the Sea No service to the King and by the power and Court Countenance that such had over the inferior Ministers both they by the Prelaticall Clergie and the people by them were made more obsequious and serviceable to whatsoever constitutions and impositions which came upon them whether from the Civill or Ecclesiasticall Authority And though wee have cause to multiply our benedictions as David did 1 Sam. 25. ●2 33. Blessed be God and blessed be the Parliament and blessed be their advice not only to themselves but to all the Kingdom that the heavie yoke of the domineering Hi●rarchy is taken off our neckes yet betwixt the Magistrates and the people the godly Ministers of the Kingdome and ordinarily the Ministers of this Citie especially for the Synod of Divines is an extraordinary Assembly will be alwayes as least instrumentally profitable for the promoting and upholding of a conformity and commodious correspondence on both sides according to the Relations wherein for the glory of God and the publique welfare they are mutually obliged to each other In pr●posall of these particulars to your Lordship I shall not be thought to present you with an impertinent discourse by any thus will consider bow much the union of three Kingdoms depends upon the union of this Metropolis or mother Citie with the Parliament above it the Ministry within it and all the sister Cities and daughter Townes and Villages round about it and how much the union of this City now depends upon your Honour and I doubt not but that by Gods speciall providence your Honour was reserved for such a time as this when by a prudent and zealous and authoritative endevour for the cure of the manifold distractions among us you may be a blessed meanes to keepe off the destruction from us which is threatned by our Saviour to a Kingdome and there is the like danger to any either City or family given over to division Matth. 12.25 wherein your Lordship and your Venerable Colleagues may have the deepest share in suffering according to the measure of your eminent prelations in honour and estate above ordinary Citizens if which God forbid violent and unruly spirits should not be circumscribed with the virge of your awfull authoritie To this end though the Presbyterian Government may be very subservient and the Ministers of the City will be alwaies ready as their faculties furnish them with abilitie and their duties oblige them with diligence to serve your Honour yet since that is set up but in part and for a good part subiect to dispute as your power is not for it is wholly compleat and no way questionable the through reformation of this spatious and populous Citie next under God and the Parliament will more depend upon your head for counsell your heart for affection and your hand for execution then on any humane helpe or meanes whatsoever it be And if in regard of newly emergent mischiefs for Satan infus●th into his Agents new fancies and devices and stirreth them up to dangerous Innovations every day you find not ready remedies for all present or imminent evils within the bounds of your municipall Charters you are so neere the well-head and spring of Civill Government the Legislative Senate at Westminster that you may easily and speedily procure a supplement of power for any service that may conduce to the safety of the Parliament and Citie and with both by consequentiall operation and virtuall influence of many millions of subiects within the three Kingdomes united in the most Sacred bond of our solemne Covenant which may with more i●genuiti● be desired and with more facility be obtained because thereby the Parliament it selfe may be the better secured both from contemp● and tumult which may justly be feared from such an insolent and violent generation of fanaticke and some franticke Enthusiasts and other fiery spirited Separatists who account it the height of their Evangelicall zeale to bring downe the highest and most eminent Worthies of the State for true piety prudence dignitie and power under the feet of confused Anarchy and popularity Wherein that they meane to make no reserves of reverence for the supreme Senate of the Kingdome nor to allow any protection by priviledges of Parliament is clearly discovered in that most seditious Pamphlet besides many others called Englands Birthright For notwithstanding the present

of power to let into the Church by the Sacrament of Baptisme as indeed it is and whom to admit to and whom to keep back from participation of the Sacrament of the Lords Supper it is a degree of power farre above both whom to ordaine to or whom to debarre from the order of Presbyters for 1. Whatsoever power or authoritie a Presbyter may claime by the word of God is virtually included in his Ordination 2. They that have power to ordaine a Presbyter have power upon just cause to silence and suspend the execution of that power and to stop his mouth Tit. 1.11 if it be opened to broach heresie or blasphemie or if his conversation be vitious and scandalous 3. The Covenant for the generall heads of it comprehendeth a perfect enumeration of the maine parts of the desired reformation under the titles of Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government but Ordination is not to be referred to Doctrine or Worship but to Discipline or Government for the ordaining of Governours and the exercise of Government properly appertaine to the same Topick or Classis 4. Though Government and Worship be distinguished betwixt themselves yet both agree in this that their generall grounds and rules are found in the word of God and in that respect the one may be set forth in the Civill Sanction with a relish of and reference to a religious constitution as well as the other But in case they will not be pleased to expresse any Divine right in any part of the Government in their Civill Sanction and will in a Parliamentary and Legislative way establish that thing which really and in it selfe is agreeable to the Word of God though they doe not declare it to be the will of Iesus Christ as is noted before out of the learned Commissioner of Scotland his * Sect. 8. p. 25. Brotherly examination and he hath the like in his * p. 32. Nihil Respondes we must be satisfied * p. 22. SECT XX. An Appendix to the precedent examination being an Apologeticall Narrative of the Petitions of the Common Councell of the Citie and Ministers of London presented to both the Honourable Houses of Parliament the 19th and 20th dayes of Novem. 1645. with a Vindication of them and the proceedings in them from the scandalous aspersions of the weekely Pamphleters especially of him who miscals himself by the name of the Moderate Intelligencer BVt howsoever the hope of union hath gon on hitherto since the Petitions of the Common Councell and of the Ministers of the Citie were presented to the Parliament there is great likelyhood of a dangerous breach betwixt the Parliament and them which will not easily be cemented up to perfect accord So haply may some conceive who know no more of the matter then they are told by the Moderate Intelligencer or by his Plagiatie the writer of the continuation of especiall and remarkable Passages who repeats his lying and scandalous Relation word for word in these termes This day the Common Councell did present a Petition to the Commons House of Parliament by divers Aldermen and others of that Councell which seemed to complaine or take ill the proceedings of the Parliament with the Assembly in the late businesse past concerning the election of Elders c. The Commons sate long about the businesse and laid it much to heart that any such thing should come from the Citie and that they should lend an eare to any that should in so evill a way represent things unto them and of what dangerous consequence it was and gave them an answer to this effect That they did perceive that they had beene informed and that they could not but lay it much to heart that they who had ever beene so ready to doe all good offices for the Kingdome and goe with the Parliament should from any but the Parliament take a representation of their proceedings and intreated them that herealter they would take satisfaction from themselves It s true they did beleeve they meant well and had a good meaning and intention in it but they were abused They had no sooner given answer to this but there came another from the Clergy to the same effect which was more sad then the former for they conceived this latter was an appeale from the Houses to the people and of as dangerous a consequence as could be imagined and that it deserved a high censure and withall they resolved if that was the way intended they would goe on with their Declaration and quickly undeceive the people and in the interim they referred it to the Committee of examinations that the first contrivers and after fomenters of this businesse may be dealt with according to merit This is a parcell of their weekly report but principally his who miscals himselfe the Moderate Intelligencer for he is neither Intelligent writing what he understands not nor Moderate being passionately addicted to a partie to flatter either out of an erroneous sancie fondly set upon irregular novelties in opinion and practice or out of a covetous affection to the wages of iniquitie the reward of flatterie or slander as the bad cause whereto he hath engaged his Pen hath need to be served with the one or the other and in the latter he hath shewed himselfe this last weeke a very 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that 's the word in the Originall for a false accuser 2 Tim. 3.3 a false accuser of the brethren Revel 12.10 not of brethren in evill as Simeon and Levi Gen. 49.5 but in good in most sincere and zealous desires and endeavours to be serviceable to the Parliament in prosecution of the great Cause that is in hand the through reformation of Church and State Among whom there are many who taken single by themselves might in good manners have been entertained with termes which savour more of reverence then of contempt but this three-farthing News-monger takes upon him as if he had beene authorised by the Parliament to involve all the venerable Magistrates and prime men of power and trust in this Honourable Citie and a very great number of the most learned laborious and consciencious Ministers of the Province of London in an unfaithfull and undutifull association against the Parliament for their joynt petitioning to the Parliament And where lyeth the crime that may make them lyable to so loud a clamour was it for petitioning in generall or for their petitioning in particular If we consult with his scandalous paper we shall find that he layeth an heavie charge upon both First for the generall in the precedent page he ushereth it in with an egregious calumny in these words * p. 203 Now let us come home and looke about us and see if while our Army is labouring to subdue the enemy and end strife there is not new beginning by those that Fame saith have beene the causes of all the strife we did intreat them the last weeke they would let the Parliament alone and waite

while I seek after a controverted truth I may not turne aside from a certaine duty which is in meeknesse to deale with a brother that is contrary minded so farre as may not prove to the prejudice of what in conscience I am bound to undertake and to manage also to the best advantage This for the Author and for the Title page besides for the Authors Name is a part of it it is as followeth SECT II. Of the Title Page A New Quere at this time seasonably to be considered as we tender the advancement of Truth and Peace He knew very well how the Athenian humour of listening after news prevaileth with our people of all sorts and therefore being to fish in troubled waters he puts upon his hook that bait at which it was like many would be nibling Next he saith It is at this time seasonably to be considered as we tender the advancement of Truth and Peace He commends his New Query to acceptance in two respects 1. As seasonable 2. As much importing the advancement of Truth and Peace For the first he saith it is at this time seasonably to be considered So it is now it is published but it was very unseasonably offered and I marvell that he who hath written a whole booke of policy should be so unpoliticke as to thinke it seasonable to set forth such a Quere and so to resolve it such it tends to retard the establishment of Government whereto the Parliament is so much engaged not onely for the thing it selfe but for a timely proposition and imposition of it by their civill sanction For the first that they intend to set up a Church government we have it 1. From their expresse profession December 15. 1641. We doe here declare that it is farre from our purpose or desire to let loose the golden reines of Discipline and Government in the Church to leave private persons or particular Congregations to take up what forme of service they please for we hold it requisite that there should be throughout the whole Realme a conformitie in that order which the Lawes enioyne according to the word of God So in the first Remonstrance of the Honourable House of Commons pag. 25. 2. from the first Article of the solemne League and Covenant published by Authoritie of Parliament September 21. 1643. Wherein they and all others that take it doe covenant to endeavour the reformation of Religion in the Kingdomes of England and Ireland in Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government according to the word of God and the example of the best reformed Churches 3. this Covenant was ordered againe by the Honorable House of Commons Januarie 29. 1644. to be publiquely read every Fast day and to be set up in every Congregation in a faire Table where every one may read it and to this are set the names of Master Speaker and 243. more of the Honourable House of Commons And for the second that they meane to expedite the settling of Government with all convenient speed we have good cause to conceive 1. Because they have bestowed already very many dayes in consultation about it 2. They insist in the same consultations still 3. They according to the eminence of their wisdome apprehend many and great evils that grow both in number and power by Doctrines of Libertinisme which necessarily require the restraint of a reformed Church Government 4. They have already set it up 1. In their Ordinance of Ordination set forth the last yeare 2. In an Ordinance for making London a Province this last yeare dividing it into severall Classes and for choosing a Committee for tryall of Elders to be chosen and Rules to be observed for orderly proceeding in the same and this before this Quere came forth 3. Since that they have advanced further by a Vote and Order for choosing Elders forthwith in particular Congregations 4. And last of all they have published an Ordinance with rules and directions for suspension from the Sacrament in cases of Ignorance and Scandall Yet they cannot make that speed with the Government which by most is desired and very much desired by themselves as we of the Assembly can witnesse who have often beene sent to by that Honourable Senate to quicken our worke and to ripen our debates to a full resolution because as with us the libertie of speaking wherein every one is free to propose and prosecute any doubt prolonged the Government in our hands so the like libertie in the Honourable Houses or rather our libertie is like theirs it being the Prototypon lengthens the debates and delayes the Votes of that most Honourable Senate and so much the more because they are more in number then we in our Synod and because their determinations are finall as ours are not And though that which is published doe not yet reach home to our full satisfaction we hope it is in the way towards further perfection which cannot reasonably be expected in the first Essayes of frames and formes of Government for we may say of Jerusalem as well as of Rome that it was not built in a day though in time it became the perfection of beautie the ioy of the whole earth Lam. 2.15 Such we pray God that fabrick may prove which is under the hands of our Honourable and holy Nehemiahs and Lord polish finish and establish the worke in their hands yea the worke of their hands establish thou it Psal 90.17 The other particular he propounds to make his Quere more plausible is the reference it hath to two precious things viz. Truth and Peace both which are upheld by Government Church-Government and without it for truth we have abundance of errours and heresies broached among us which divide men into manifold Sects and Factions and where they are multiplied there can be no peace without a treacherous toleration which will resolve at last into an Anarchy and confusion Having premised this he putteth his Quere thus Whether it be fit according to the Principles of true Religion and State to settle any Church-government over the Kingdome hastily or not and with the power commonly desired in the hands of the Ministers First he putteth the case according to the Principles of Religion and State which if he had well considered he might have thought the Parliament for the one and the Assembly of Divines for the other competently qualified each in their profession for resolution of such a doubt especially since it is a chiefe part of the publique worke of them both to drive it to its issue might have prevented such a Quere as this from a private Divine Secondly he suggests a suspition as if the Parliament were driving on the Discipline and Government of the Church in Jehu's Chariot with furious haste whereas both Parliament and Assembly have much adoe to ward off imputations of procrastination and delay for debating so long and determining so little whereof we have rendred the reasons before Thirdly he presents it as a gravamen or

our Saviour in regard of the rigorous yoke of the Law of Moses which neither we said Peter nor our fore-fathers were able to beare Act. 15.10 be easie and yet more easie by the assistance Christ giveth his servants to beare it whence it was that the Apostle professed that he tooke pleasure in infirmities in necessities persecutions in distresses for Christs sake for when I am weake said he then am I strong 2 Cor. 12.10 When he was weake in himself then was he strong by the support of Christ Yet is his yoke in it selfe to those that are not by him enabled to beare it very burdensome as where Christ requireth the plucking out the right eye or cutting off of the right hand that is of any concupiscence or contentment which becommeth a scandall or an offence to the soule if it were as deare unto us as a right eye or right hand Matth. 5.29 30. and the deniall of a mans owne selfe and taking up his crosse to follow him Matth. 16.24 the hating his nearest kindred not onely in a collaterall but in a directline whether above or below him yea and his owne life also Luke 14. The last place is neither doe men put new wine into old bottles Matth. 9.17 Whereof it is hard to make any sober sense which may serve to stay the Government at Discipline for a moment and how it belongs to the resolution of this New Quere is hard to find out though by a sober and serious consideration of the Case If his meaning be which he should not have put his Reader to study for that a new Government should not be put upon those who have long beene accustomed to the old lest it make a breach upon their conscience or patience as new wine wil by its working be like to break crazie bottles if they be stopt while it is in working then it makes rather for the continuance of the Prelacie then against the setting up of the Presbyterie and not against the Government or Discipline at this time onely but at any time for whensoever it comes it will be new Wine at the first and the longer it is delayed the older will the bottles be into which it must be put but the truth is the Government is neither so new as he would make it nor will there be any violent working by it to the breaking of any bottle or vessell unlesse it be a vessell of wrath fitted to destruction Rom. 9.22 His last words in this Paragraph and the next to those but now rehearsed are all which cannot be fulfilled in the Parochiall congregations All which all what why what is fore-mentioned what is that the Discipline of Christ the sutablenesse he presseth for his meekenesse and silence his easie yoke and light burden his Commandements not grievous and the putting of new wine into new bottles all which saith he cannot be fulfilled in Parochiall Congregations what language is here what sense what Logicall connexion that may joyn the premises and conclusion together to beget a thought of compliance with the resolution of the Quere Conceiving the Penner to be a sober man I must thinke in this passage the Printers braine might be troubled with the fume of new wine to conclude with non-sense for a rationall consequence and I beleeve no new wine and old bottles how new or old soever can worse agree together then the fore-going evidence and finall sentence of this Paragraph SECT VII Master Colemans experimentall exceptions against the severitie and rigour of the Presbyteriall Government answered BVt doth not Mr. Coleman complaine of the Presbyteriall Government as too severe and domineering and that upon his owne experience and thereupon forecast some strange feares and strong prejudices against it Yes and he doth it in these words I will tell you saith he both what and whence my feares are I feare lest the Presbyteriall Government should incroach upon the Civill and I also feare lest it should Prelatically tyrannize and these my feares arise from Scotland and from London 1. From Scotland I my selfe did heare the Presbyterie of Edenborough censure a woman to be banished out of the gates of the Citie was not this an incroachment Answer It may be not for there might be Civill Magistrates in the Presbyterie and they as Civill Magistrates not as Presbyterians might inflict such a Censure upon her or upon proofe of notorious lewdnesse they might say she was not worthy to be suffered to live in the Towne and therefore that she deserved to be banished out of it but that the Presbyterie did as a Presbyterie authoritatively take upon them to banish her he doth not affirme much lesse confirme by any good evidence and I am credibly informed * On monday November 3. that some of the Reverend Commissioners of Scotland have confidently gainsaid that report to his face And what if that were one exorbitant act and usurpation upon the Civill power will that one act make voyd the right of a power which is Presbyteriall And what if a Civill Magistrate should take upon him to preach and administer the Sacraments as Vzziah would have burned incense 2 Chron. 26.16 would that make a forfeiture of all Civill authoritie Mr. Coleman will not say it nor can he prove what he pretends by such an incroachment against the Presbyterie But for this I leave him to his Antagonist the religious learned prudent and modest Commissioner of Scotland who I doubt not will doe the Cause and himselfe right against Mr. Coleman his exceptions in time convenient 2. From London Presbyterie saith he with us here is scarce yet in its infancie we have had but one or two preparative meetings and yet in them we had as Prelaticall a trick endevoured to be put upon us as the nature of the businesse could possibly beare and when I stood up to plead for an equall interest and to prevent such usurpations the grave Prelaticall checks of knave and foole were at least whispered for mine entertainement Hence these feares Answer He doth not shew what Prelaticall trick that was but as since he hath explained his speech to a reverend Brother of the Assembly it appeareth upon examination that he was much mistaken both in the person he suspected and in the motive and intention of the speaker so that it was so farre from being a Prelaticall trick that it was neither a trick nor Prelaticall no nor Presbyteriall neither for what if the spirit of Diotrephes be in a single Presbyter without a Presbytery I am sure that meeting which he meaneth was no formed Presbyterie none such as was endowed with or assumed any power of Ecclesiasticall censure if it had neither he nor his opposite would have beene suffered in such incivilitie of language as he hath expressed Nor is it reasonable to intitle the extraordinary excesses of particular persons to any sort or society of men for there be some and but some in all Professions who are very masterfull in

2. If he have well prepared his heart for that holy Communion he hath so much charitie as not to take offence at the scrupled conscience of his Minister at least not to desire that he should act any thing against it because of the counsell and determination of the Apostle Whatsoever is not of faith is sinne Rom. 14.23 so much humilitie as to take the repulse in a doubtfull case with meeknesse and patience so much faith as to beleeve that though his innocence for the present be under a cloud the Lord will bring forth his righteousnesse as light and his indgement as the noone day Psal 37.6 Object If it be said the Minister may pretend conscience when it is perhaps some secret grudge which tempts him to put upon his Parishioner an open disgrace Answ 1. I hope we shall have such Ministers so well knowne by their faithfulnesse in preaching and conscionablenesse in walking that there will be no ground for such a suspition at such a time 2. Though the consciousnesse of mine owne innocent intentions might dispose me for mine owne particular to accept of any penaltie that a civill Sanction can impose or that the arbitrary revenge of the repulsed partie would inflict if I were convinced to have kept any from the Sacrament out of spight or a perverse spirit or inconsiderate rashnesse without a cause which may be allowed to be just before a competent Iudge yet I hope that all who have authoritie to determine any thing upon such miscarriage of the Minister will thinke it sufficient and answerable to exact justice that he who shall abuse his power or transgresse his dutie in such a case be dealt withall lege talionis that is that the Classis for his undue suspension suspend him from the Sacrament which will bring so much more reproach and shame upon him then he brought upon the party refused as the more prudence pietie and charitie was required in him and the more notice is taken of him when he prevaricates in his office and function and is punished for it in such an open and eminent manner Object But to leave it in the power of the Minister without an expresse and particular rule to receive or reject whom he pleaseth is to put into his hands an unlimited arbitrary power which on all hands in all sorts of men is disliked and disclaimed Answ 1. It is not to be left to the Minister alone but to the Presbyterie 2. Though he act alone in the administration it selfe he is not to be thought to act by an arbitrary power when according to his duty following the rule and his present light he endevoureth to put difference betwixt the holy and profane betwixt the uncleane and the cleane ●zek 22.26 and to preserve the holy Sacrament from contempt that by a confusion of holy and unholy communicants the Brownists others who act according to their principles may not be hardened in their separation from our sacred Assemblies And in such a case for any private man to obtrude himselfe upon the Minister is to act an arbitrary power upon him yea an arbitrary tyranny if he should be authorised so to doe and should it be so out we have so much experience of the piety prudence and indulgence of the most Honourable Houses that we can never suspect any such pressure to proceed from them we can readily resolve to act or to forbeare what according to the Dictate of our consciences we conceive to be enjoyned or prohibited by our great Master and to beare and suffer what shall be imposed on us by our Superiours under him to whom we professe our obedience is due being but private persons either actively or passively in whatsover they shall determine concerning our persons liberties and estates 2. For that he saith of severe lawes and punishments to be constituted and good Magistrates chosen to see them actually executed we confesse if that could be generally and perpetually expected or but for the most part there were great hope of much helpe by such meanes against both the scandalous sinnes contained in the Catalogue and others of like kind but so long as Magistrates are men of no purer mould or metall then Ministers are and they passe not through so severe an examination before they be admitted to their offices as Ministers doe nor have so many obligations laid upon them for sinceritie and integritie as are laid upon Ministers nor so many eyes upon them to observe their aberrations from a right rule as Ministers have nor are like to have so many mouthes open to reprove or reproach them for or so many hands to restraine them from misdoing or to punish them for it as most Ministers in regard of their poverty and impotencie for the most part may expect which the Magistrates their superiours in estate and authoritie need not so much to feare there is no reason I conceive to take all power of censure from the Presbyterie for the Ministers sake for the Elders are not denied to be capable of jurisdiction as they are members of the Civil State and to put all upon the power and vigilant and conscionable execution of the Magistrate And I doubt not but we may confidently averre and the experience of precedent and subsequent times will make it good that it is so farre from being superfluous that there be a concurrence of the Civill and Presbyteriall power for suppression of sinne that when both are imployed and improved with all prudence diligence and conscience to suppresse the corruption of nature and to prevent the spreading and prevailing of scandalous sins and when the severe and strict discipline of private Families and of common Schooles is added unto them there will be no cause for all that to suspect any pleonasme either of piety or civilitie among the people of the Kingdome SECT XV. Of Mr. Colemans Interimisticall Magistracie NOr would that way which Mr. Coleman in his late and yet perhaps too soon put forth Re-examination of the Examination of his Sermon remembreth be so sufficient of it selfe A Brotherly examination reexamined p. 1● as that if it had prevailed there would have been no need of a Presbytery to supply the defect thereof as he delivereth it it is this At the extirpation of the Prelacie the Honourable Parliament would have established Commissioners in all Counties as an Interimisticall Magistracie c. And this he seemeth to conceive a better way of Church Government then that of the Presbyterie so much better that if that had beene set up this would have beene superfluous But in this historicall passage of his there be many particulars which may come under correction for first he saith the Parliament would have established Commissioners in all Counties as an Interimisticall Magistracie And would the Parliament have done it why did they not doe it was any power greater then the Parliaments any prudence more prevalent then theirs Secondly Some saith he and who they were is

both and so in stead of clearing your owne conscience you corrupt i● againe with a new guilt If the House of Commons did so conceive of the Petitioners as you have published before you have indiscre●tly deserted the true information you had from them by a good hand as you call it twice but how good soever you take it to be there be some false fingers in it i● it wrote that to you which you have written to others and have m●●● your self an offender above the degree of your 〈◊〉 for though the tale you were told were mat●rially an untruth it was not fo●mally a slander in you while you did but publish it not as any thing made or 〈◊〉 by you ●ot as received by report from an 〈◊〉 with yourselfe of much 〈◊〉 for his trusty Intelligence And yet I conceive it had been a part of good manners to have forborne the divulging of such newes of so great moment wherein not only the integ●●y of the Common Councell and Ministers of London but the prudence of the Honourable House of Commons was highly concerned unlesse they had given you warrant to proclaim to the world that which in such cases is or should be kept within the compasse of their owne walls You conclude as you began with commendation of your selfe for the innocency of your intentions and charitablenesse of your affection saying in your first lines There past us the last weeke something that was displeasing both to the Common Councell and likewise to the Clergie to neither of which we intended the least displeasure and you end with the same selfe conceit wherein you began for you tell us in the close of your speech that you hold it 〈◊〉 high offence to wrong the poorest particular man yea if an enemy nor durst we say you ever publish that against the Parliaments and Kingdomes present enemie much more much lesse you should say against their friends which we did not receive from very good hands as truth If you say this in sinceritie we shall see some clearer evidence of your conscientious acknowledgement then that contradictory confession can be accompted which is like an Iliaca passie in the belly and bowels of your retractation though the head and loot of it be sutably qualified of your wronging not of a single or a private enemy but of a numerous society of the most publique Honourable and venerable Friends and Votaries of the Parliament in the Kingdome which if you seriously consider you cannot satisfie your selfe much lesse can you expect that they should rest satisfied with such a recanting recantation as you have now made if other wise this Paper will assure the Intelligent Reader that as Belshazzars government so your repentance is weighted in the ballan●e and found wanting Dan. 5.27 But untill I know the worst my charitie disposeth me to hope the best and my hope is that you are on the mending hand and so fare you well Now for the bold Britain● who brags of his daring spirit and would have every man to turne coward in a good Cause for 〈◊〉 of his courage in a 〈◊〉 yet it seemeth some body 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 to tell him of his miscarriage towards the Magistrates and Ministers of the Citie in such sort that as Salust said to Cicero * Si quam voluptatem male dicendo cepisti eam male audiend● amittas Orat. Salust in Ciceron Cicer. Orat. p. 671. If he tooke any delight in speaking what he ought not he may lose it againe by hearing what he would not and I must now doe it the second time by giving him another check for his vanitie in magnifying himselfe and his injurie in vilifying such as he cannot sufficiently honour For himselfe he makes as if he were a man of such high elevation that it is a stooping below his genius to have any thing to doe though by way of reproofe with such a despicable company as the Court of Common Councell and the Ministers of the City whom he would not meddle with were it not to serve the Parliament and serve them I dare saith he in as high a nature as any man and shall in all things comply with their proceedings and endeavour to make this compliance universall Were it not to serve the Parliament For your service to the Parliament Mr. Brit. I would not have you to be confident either in your owne performances or of their acceptance or of the good effects it hath brought forth among the people of the Kingdome there are some who though they doe not bragge of wit as you doe have a great deale more wisdome then you have and they say you have begotten much malignitie in many against the Parliament and confirmed it in others and have much weakened the hands of their most conscionable friends by the licentious extravangancie of your Pen beyond all bounds of grace or modesty and they further adde which honest men will lay hold on as a promise but you perhaps will take as a threatning that they will trace your irregular steps from the first page of your first Pamphlet to this present of the number 945. and represent you so in one entire delineation and discovery as if you be not a man of impenetrable impudence will make you ashamed of your owne resemblance And for your particular service you pretend to doe unto the Parliament in abusing the Petitioners I beleeve they will have little cause to give you thanks much lesse any reall reward for your painer since it will scarce lye in your power to doe them a greater dishonour then to make good men beleeve and Malignants insult that their most potent and beneficent I may say munificent Assistants the Citizens and their most faithfull and not altogether impotent or unusefull servants the Ministers of the Citie of London either give or take such offence at each other as may tend to a rupture but the hope is there will be present helpe and an effectuall Antidote against this scandall in the Apologeticall Narrative of the Petitions as now it is presented to publique view which will be the more expedite and prevalent in its operation by the little credit you have with all such as read your papers as the dictates of a Poet not of an Historian and you are like Sir to have lesse credit hereafter and to doe the Parliament lesse service then you have done if ever you did any worthy acceptance because you professe you will in all things comply with their proceedings For 1. No body will beleeve you will be so regular in you writing as they are in their Parliamentary passages 2. When you say you will in all things comply with their proceedings you must either suppose that they cannot erre which is farre from their thoughts for they know it is a pitifull and perillous ignorance or perversenesse not to acknowledge their humanitie Psal 9.20 and that it is the presumption of the Papall Conclave not a Priviledge of Parliament to assume