C. pag. 5. Sect. 3. We pretende it not but we propounde it and herein we call God to witnesse agaynst our owne soules Io. Whitgifte I can not let you to applie things to your owne selues at your pleasure Volenti non All seeke not the glorie of God that pretend so to doe fit iniuria I sette that of the Anabaptistes down to this end that men may vnderstande not al those to séek the glorie of God c. which pretend the same bicause y e Anabaptistes haue those pretences and yet they séeke nothing lesse That the Anabaptistes and suche lyke disturbers of the Church haue those pretences not only M. Bullinger in those places by me quoted but other godlie and learned men also do testifie Zuinglius in his Ecclesiast sayth that they boast that whatsoeuer they speake they speake it of Zuinglius in Ecclesiast zeale being moued with the spirite Gastius sayth in his booke De exordio erroribus catabap that vnder the pretence of zeale they subuert whatsoeuer other men haue buylded Gastius Bucer in 4. ad Ephes. sayth that Satan couereth and cloketh arrogancie selfeloue enuye Bucer and hatred with a false pretence of godlie zeale for the puritie of faith for the sinceritie of Christes doctrine and for the saluation of the Church It is expedient for men to know this else might they thorough simplicitie easily be deceyued Io. Whitgifte The. 7. Article Pag. 3. Sect. 4. They earnestly cryed out against pride gluttonie c. They spake Bull. fo 11. 17. much of mortification they pretended great grauitie they sighed muche they seldome or neuer laughed they were verie austere in reprehendyng they spake gloriouslye To be shorte Magna varia erat ipsorum bypocrisis they were greate hypocrites thereby to winne authoritie to their heresie among the simple and ignorant people T. C. Pag. 5. Sect. 4. If you doe note these thinges which we say not we wil rather doo them with the Anabaptistes than leaue them vndone with you Of our simple heart and meaning in them we haue before Psalm 37. ver 6. protested In the meane season we will paciently abyde vntill the Lord bring our * rightuousnesse in this behalfe vnto lyght and our iust dealing as the noone day Touching our sighing and seldome or neuer laughyng you giue occasion after to speake of it vnto the whiche place I reserue the answere Io. Whitgifte I doe not write this of them bicause I woulde haue men absteyne from reprouing vice and exhorting to godlinesse but to lette it be vnderstoode that these be no certaine proofes of the veritie of the doctrine being commonly vsed in most vehement sort of the heretikes and sectaries to allure the people vnto them and to winne credite vnto their opinions Io. Whitgifte The. 8. Article Pag. 3. Sect. 5. If they were at any tyme punished for their errors they greatly Bull. fol. 11. complained that nothing was vsed but violence that the truth was oppressed that innocent and godly men which would haue al things reformed according to the word of God could not be heard nor haue libertie to speak That Zuinglius stopped their mouths defended his cause not by the word of God but by y e authoritie of the magistrate T. C. Page 5. Sect. 5. We are no Stoikes that we should not be touched with the feeling of our greefes if our complaints be excessiue shew them and we will abridge them what errours we defend and how you maynteyne your parte by the word of God it will appeare in the discourse of your Booke Io. Whitgifte And yet your complaint in this point as it is without iust cause so is it common to you with the Anabaptists and therefore no true note of the veritie of your doctrine nor any sufficient cause why you should therefore be more gratious vnto the people The chéefest thing that the common sort haue to say in your defense is that you be persecuted put from your liuings c. Which if it were altogither true as it is reported yet your complaint is no other than the Anabaptists is and therefore no more to be alleadged for the iustifying of you than the like is for the iustifying of them Io. Whitgifte The. 9. Article Page 3 Sect. 6. They found great faulte with the baptising of children and ceremonies Bu. Fo. 10. 〈◊〉 vsed in the same But afterward did vtterly condemne it T. C. Page 5. Sect. 6. Their finding fault without cause in the ceremonies of baptisme cannot barre vs from finding fault where there is cause We allow of the baptisme of children and hope through the goodnesse Marke the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ of God that it shall be farre from vs euer to condemne it But to let your slaunderous tong go all the strings whereof ye seeme to haue losed that it may the more freely be throwen on t ano walke against the innocent where where is the modestie you require in other of not entring to iudge of things vnknowen which dare insinuate to the Magistrate that it is like they will condemne childrens baptisme which do baptise them preach they shoulde be baptised and which did neuer by sillable letter or countenance mislike of their baptisme Io. Whitgifte Can you denie any thing to be true that I haue spoken of the Anabaptists in thys article or can you denie but that your selues also mislike the ceremonies vsed in baptisme in this Church yea and the same that they did what followed in them is manifest what wil follow in you God knoweth I iudge not What be my suspicions is declared in my answer to the Admonition which if you haue truly taken away I am satisfyed but I am afraid the contrarie will appeare in your booke Io. Whitgifte The. 10. 11. 12. Page 3. Sect. 7. They taught that the ciuill Magistrate hathe no authoritie in Bul. Fol. 19 ▪ Ecclesiasticall matters and that he ought not to medle in causes of religion and faith Page 4. Sect 1. That no man oughte to be compelled to faith and to religion Bul. Fol. 19. 9 242. That Christians oughte to punish faultes not with imprisonment not with the sword or corporall punishment but only with excommunication Fol. 178. T. C. Page 5. Sect. 7. I answer as vnto the fifth and for further answer I will referre the reader to those places where occasion shall be giuen to speake of those things ag ayne Io. Whitgifte And I referre my selfe also to the Admonitions and to your owne booke and to my seuerall answers which shall be made touching these matters Io. Whitgifte The. 13. Article Page 4. Sect. 3. They complayned much of persecution Fol. 11. 242. T. C. Pa. 5. Sect. 8. This is a braunch of the eyght and added for nothing else but to make vp the tale Io. Whitgifte And yet a worthy note else shoulde it not haue bin so often repeated not only of Bullinger but of other godly
to whom God hath committed the sworde of gouernment such insolent audacitie against states and lawfull regiment is rather to be corrected with due punishment than confuted by argument T. C. Page 74. Sect. 6. 7. 8. As for Prelate of the Garter if it be a needefull office there are inowe to execute it besydes the Ministers which for as much as they be appointed to watche ouer the soules of men purchased with the bloude of Christ all men vnderstand that it is not meete that they shoulde attend vpon the bodie muche lesse vpon the legge and least of al vpon the Garter It is not vnlawfull for Princes to haue Ministers of their honor but also it is not lawfull to take those that God hath appoynted for another ende to vse to such purposes Thou seest here good reader that M. Doctor kepeth his olde wont of (*) Vntruthe manifest peruerting of the wordes and meanyng of the authors of the Admonition For whereas they saye that the name of Erle Countie Palatine Iustice of peace and Quorum Commissioner are Antichristian when they are giuen to the ministers of the Churche whose calling wil not agree with such titles he concludeth simply that they saye they be altogether vnlawfull and simply antichristian as if I should reason that it is not meete that the Queenes Maiestie should preache or minister the Sacramentes therefore it is not meete that there shoulde be any preachyng or Ministring of the Sacramentes Nowe letting passe all your hard wordes and vnbrotherly speaches with your vncharitable prognostications and colde prophesies I will come to examine whether you haue any better hap in prouing the office than you haue had in prouing the name Io. Whitgifte I sée no cause why he that is prelate of the garter maye not also sufficiently discharge his duetie in watching ouer the soule for I thinke the garter dothe not require such continuall or great attendance Those that are appointed to watche ouer y e soule are not exempted from bodily seruice to their Prince excepte you will take from the Prince not onely authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters as you haue done but ouer Ecclesiasticall persons also as by this and such other lyke assertions you séeme to doe ▪ But here of more in place I peruert not the wordes of the Admonition as appeareth by their manifest wordes what their meaning is God knoweth But how little authoritie these offices should haue if your plat forme were framed shall be declared when I come to your seigniorie neyther the names nor offices that come from a Christian Prince that detesteth Antichrist can be called Antichristian vpon whom soeuer they be bestowed Wherevnto this your example tendeth of the Quéenes Maiestie wise men may easily coniecture It smelleth of that Papisticall cauillation Scilicet that we giue to hir Maiestie authoritie to preach and to administer the sacramentes bycause we acknowledge hir lawfull authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes I pray God my prognostications be not to true the more I consider of your booke the more I am driuen to suspect it My hard speaches be within the bondes of modestie but yours may better beséeme the order you talke of then a man of your profession Chap. 2. the. 43. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 68. Sect. 1. 2. Lordes Grace Lordbishop honor c. be names of reuerence teachyng vs to acknowledge our duetie towardes our superiours and their authoritie ouer vs. And it is much more to be reprehended not to giue honor to whom honor is due then to receyue honor when it is due You maye and you please in verye auncient Histories and in Titles of dig nitie in ministers not Antichristian great learned fathers see as honorable and reuerent titles giuen vnto Byshops as these be And surely it is not Antichristian to be called by names and titles not ambitiously soughte for but orderly and lawfully giuen according to the condition and state of the place wherin a man is But it is Antichristian that is proude presumptuous disdainfull arrogant and contemptuous to refuse to giue to euery one that name and title that by law ciuilitie and duetie of vs is required and expresseth our reuerence duetie and obedience You would speake as much of names of honor and reuerence in other persons if you durste be so bolde wyth them as you thinke you may be with some Io. Whitgifte Nothing is sayde to this The offices of Archbishops c are not strange or vnheard of in Christes Church and of superioritie among the Cleargie Chap. 3. the first Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 68. Sect. 3. 4. Pag. 69. Sect. 1. Nowe it followeth to proue that the offices signifyed by these names are not straunge and vnheard of in Christes Churche neyther yet plainly in Gods worde forbidden that they are not to be remoued but as most necessarie to be reteined It is without all doubte that both these names and offices haue Antiquitie of the offices bene in Christes Church long before Nicene Councell and that they haue had in the same continuance euen to this daye as partlye if may be gathered by that which I haue spokē before and most manifestly by all histories and learned writers from before that Councell of Nyce to this instant houre and therefore they little consydered what they writte when they set it downe that these names and offices were straunge and vnheard of in the Church of Christ. These men contemning auncient writers neuer read them that is the cause of such vnlearned assertions T. C. Pag. 75. Sect. 1. And wheras in the former treatise of the name of the Archbyshop he blew the trumpet before the victorie heere in this of the office he bloweth it before he commeth into the fielde or striketh one stroke saying that they little consider what they write that they are contemners of auncient writers and that they neuer read them and that they are vnlearned which denie these things which he affirmeth Well what we reade howe vnlearned we are is not the matter whiche we striue for the iudgemente thereof is first with God ▪ then with the Churches and in their iudgementes we are content to reste But if you be so greatly learned and we so vnlearned and smally read then the truth of oure cause shall more appeare that is maynteined with so small learnyng and reading agaynst men of such profound knowledge great reading And yet I knowe not why if we be not tooidle we should not be hable to reade as much as you which may haue leysure to reade a good long writer or euer you can ryde onely to see and salute your houses and liuings being so many and so farre distant one from an other And if we be so vnlearned and holde suche daungerous opinions of Papistrie and anabaptisme as you beare men in hand we doe why do you not by the example of the Ministers in Germanie procure a publike disputation where you may both winne
authorem vniuersorum Dominum Episcopum autem vt Sacerdotum Principem imagi em Dei ferentem Dei quidem per Principatum Christi verò per Sacerdotium Honor God as the author and Lorde of all thinges and a Bishop as the chiefe of Priestes bearing the Image of God of God bicause of his superioritie of Christ by reason of his Priesthoode And a little after Let laye men be subiecte to Deacons Deacons to Priests and Priestes to Bishops the Bishop to Christ. And agayne Let no man doe any thing vvhiche perteyneth to the Churche vvithout the consente of the Bishop And agayn He that attēpteth to do any thing vvithout the Bishop breaketh peace and confoundeth good order The like saying he hath in his Epistle ad Magnesianos These three Epistles doth Eusebius make mention of Lib. 3. cap. 35. 36. and Hiero. de viris illustribus T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 4. It is no maruell although you take vp the authors of the Admonition for wante of Logike for you vtter great skill your selfe in writing whiche keepe no order but confounde your Reader in that thing which euen the common Logike of the countrey which is reason might haue directed you in for what a confusion of times is this to beginne with Cyprian and then come to Ierome and Chrysostome and after to the Scripture and backe agayne to Ignatius that was before Cyprian which tymes are ill disposed of you and that in a matter wherin it stoode you vpon to haue obserued the order of the tymes Io. Whitgifte Be patient a whyle the matter is not great the Authors be knowne and the The order ob serued in placing the authorities in y e answere antiquitie of them my mynde is of the matter and there is reason why I should thus place them Cyprian telleth the necessitie of suche superioritie and so dothe Chrysostome Hierome the cause and the originall Paule Timothie and Titus be examples hereof Ignatius and the rest are brought in as witnesses of the continuance of such offices and superioritie in the Churche euen from the Apostles Now first to proue the name of these offices not to be Antichristian then to shew the necessitie of the offices thirdly the cause and last of all to declare the vse of the same to haue bene in the Churche euen from S. Paules time to this houre is to kéepe a better order than you shall be able to disorder with all the Logike Rhetorike and hote Eloquence you haue Chap. 3. the. 61. Diuision T. C. Pag. 87. Sect. 4. But as for Ignatius place it is sufficiently answered before in that which was answered to Cyprian his place for when he sayeth the Bishop hath rule ouer all he meaneth no more all in the prouince than in all the world but meaneth that flocke and congregation whereof he is Bishop or minister And when be calleth him Prince of the priests although the title be to excessiue and big condemned by Cyprian and the councel of Carthage yet he meaneth no more the prince of all in the diocesse as we take it or of the prouince than he meaneth the Prince of all the priestes in the world but he meaneth those fellow ministers and elders that had the rule and gouernment of that particular Church and congregation whereof he is a Bishop as the great churches haue for the most part both Elders which gouerne only and ministers also to ayde one an other and the principalitie that he which they called the Byshop had ouer the rest hath bene before at large declared Io. Whitgifte You very lightly shake of Ignatius wordes but they haue more pyth in them if it please you better to consider of them For he maketh degrées of ministers and the Bishop to be the chiefe he placeth Deacons vnder Priests and Priests vnder Bishops so that he giueth to the Bishop superioritie and gouernment ouer both Priests and Deacons which is the grounde of this cause and it being graunted as it muste néedes neyther can this authoritie of Ignatius be auoyded Aerius Heresie falleth and so doth your whole assertion What is ment by Prince of Priests Ignatius himselfe declareth saying Obtinens principatum potestatem supra omnes hauing chieftie and power ouer all How this name may be wel vsed I haue shewed before where I haue also declared the meaning of Cyprians woordes vttered in the hereticall Councell of Carthage and therefore not coumpted in the number of those Councels Chap. 3. the. 62. Diuision T. C. Pag. 88. Sect. 1. 2. But M. Doctor doth not remember that whylest he thus reasoneth for the authoritie of the Bishop he ouerthroweth his Archbyshop quite and cleane For Ignatius will haue none aboue the Bishop but Christ and he will haue an Archbishop I see a man cannot well serue two masters but eyther he must displease the one and please the other or by pleasing of one offend the other For M. Doctor would fayne please and vphold both and yet his proo es are such that euery proppe that he setteth vnder one is an axe to strike at the other Io. Whitgifte I remember it very well and I know that an Archbishop is a Bishop and that therfore there may be superioritie among Bishops and yet nothing detracted from the woordes of Ignatius I know likewise that as well the one as the other is cōdemned by you and I am well assured that the proofe of the one is the proofe of the other and therfore M. Doctor may well serue two masters but they be such as be not onely not contrary one to the other but so néerely linked and ioyned togither that what soeuer pleaseth the one doth also please the other M. Doctors proppes and proofes are such as M. T. C. is compelled to vse railing flouting in steade of answering which is a shift but how honest and Christian let the world iudge Chap. 3. the. 63. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 73. Sect. 1. Iustinus Martyr one of the most auncient writers of the Greekes Iustine Martyr in his second Apologie ad Antoninum Pium alloweth this superioritie calleth him that bare rule ouer the other ministers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 T. C. Pag. 88. Sect. 2. But that M. Doctor deliteth alwayes where he might fetch at the fountayne to be raking in ditches he needed not to haue gone to Iustine Martyr for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when as S. Paule calleth 1. Tim. 5 ▪ the ministers and Elders by this title And if this place of Iustine make for an Archbishop then in steade of an Archbishop in euery prouince we shall haue one in euery congregation For Iustine declareth there the leyturgie or manner of seruing God that was in euery church vsed of the Christians And I pray you let it be considered what is the office of that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 see whether there be any resemblance in the world betweene him and an Archbishop For he placeth his office to be in
offended neyther did the priestes or prophets thrust themselues into that busines but so farre foorth as perteyned to admonitions and reprehensions which they applyed out of the word of God according to the qualitie of the offences Therefore the same must be obserued in the new Testament neyther is it needefull that the ministers of the word should haue a peculiar senate or that they should chalenge vnto themselues by any meanes those things that belong to the ciuil Magistrate M. Gualters meaning is that the ministers of the word cannot chalenge the authoritie of pu shing vice otherwise than by admonitions and reprehensions that is that they cannot chalenge this kinde of gouernment of a Seigniorie by the word of God bycause all such authoritie is committed to the ciuill Magistrate So that if Byshops haue it they must haue it from him as it is in this Churche of England And therfore wel sayth M Gualter in the same place there may be appoynted such as shall haue the correction of manners in such countries where the ordinarie magistrates cannot do all themselues but those must be appoynted by the magistrate and do all at his commaundement and not vsurp any distinct Iurisdiction from the ordinarie magistrate The second poynte to be noted is when he sayth that Christian princes must subiecte The prince made subiect to Seniors by the Replyer themselues to the Churche submitte their scepters throw downe their crownes before the Churche c. the whiche kind of speach the Pope himselfe vseth and vnder the same pretence hath troden kings vnder his féete And although T. C. seeme to mislike this excessiue vsing of authoritie by the Pope yet woulde be haue the same iurisdiction to remaine to his Seniors s il whome be vnderstādeth by the name of the Church as appeareth in that which he spake before of these words of Christ Dic Ecclesiae so Pag. 140. in the latter end that he woulde haue the Prince subiect hir selfe to the Seniors of the Churche and throw downe hir crowne before them that is to be con ent to be ruled and gouerned to be punished and corrected to be excommunicated and absolued by their discretion and at their pleasure This no doubt is his meaning neyther can it otherwise be for if this kind of gouernment be once admitted the Prince must néedes be of some peculiar Church and congregation and therefore subiect to the Seigniorie of that Churche except it please master Pastor who is the chéefe and the rest of hys neighbours the parishioners to elect the Prince into the Seigniorie and make hym one of them and yet must the Pastor be his superior and haue authoritie to cal him to consultations and to direct him in matters of discipline and whether he will or no he must be ordered and ruled by the Pastor and most part of the Seniors And yet now I remember my selfe the Prince cannot be of the Seigniorie for T. C. al ttle Pa. 146. sect 1. after graūteth that his Seniors be no lay men but Ecclesiastic ll so that indeede the Prince must be a seruant no master a subiect no Prince vnder gouernment no gouernoure in matters perteyning to the Church And least any man should thinke that this is but my collection though it be most Gualter true and I will iustify it so to be I haue she wed before that whiche M. Gualter affirmeth vpon the. 1. Cor. 5. as he also doth vpon the. 12. Chapter of the same Epistle saying there be some which according to the example of the old and primitiue Church wold haue Seniors and an Ecclesiasticall senate that should haue authoritie ouer magistrates if they at any time do not their duty And in deede this is one of the chiefe causes why our men would so gladly haue a Seigniorie for they would gladly be in hand with magistrates to make them stoupe and bow downe vnto them The third point is in this that he would haue the gouernment of the common wealth The Replyer seeketh the uerthrow of monarchtes and the common wealth it selfe framed to the Churche and the gouernmente thereof as the hangings are made fit for the house whereby as it may seeme he would haue all monarchies ouerthrowen and reduced eyther to a popular or an Aristocraticall estate for these two kinds of gouernment he only alloweth of in the Church as it appeareth by that which he hath thereof oltener than once or twise spoken before Now the lawes of man will beare this I knowe not but I am well assured the Christ the Gospell o enin les so 〈◊〉 law of God will not suffer it For Christe came not to ouerthrow kinds of gouernment and ciuill policie neyther doth the Gospell dissolue kingdomes for S. Peter sayth 1. Epist. 2. Proinde subditiestote cuiuis ordinationi umanae propter dominum siue Reg 1. 1. Pet. 2. c. Submit yourselues vnto all manner ordinance of man for the Lords sake whether it be vnto the king as to the superior And so Paule 1. Tim. 2. to the exhorte him to pray for 1. Timo. 2. kings which he would not haue done if the state of a kingdome could not agrée with the state of the Church But I will not amplify this matter Let such consider of it to whome it doth specially perteine This is your reason to proue that the gouernmente of the common wealth ought to be framed according to the gouernmente of the Churche bycause there was a Church before there was a common wealth but I denie the argumente and your similitude of house and hangings dothe not proue it All the Examples in the Scripture of common wealthes being also the Churches of God declare the contrary neyther can you she we any state altered in thys manner but only among the Anabaptists Of like weyghtis your other reasō which is this Good men that is the Church are as it were the foundation of the worlde the common wealth is builded vpon that foundation therefore the gouernmente of the common wealth must be framed according to the gouernmente of the Churche This gere is to subtile for euery body to vnderstand but the argumente is without all fashion and it is neyther true in matter nor forme For how pr e y u that good menne are the foundation of the worlde The fyrste menne were gréeuous transgressoures the moste of them The euyll menne in multitude and worldely prosperitie haue from tyme to tyme in the worlde ouergrowen them Moreouer the Churche visible conteyneth bothe good and badde and so doth the common wealth and therefore it can not be sayde to be buylded of good menne more than of euill men To conclude if all this were true yet dothe not the argumente followe For the foundation giueth strength but it giueth not the whole forme or fashion to that whyche is buylded vppon it For a man maye make alterations in his house though he doe not once moue or
which are very negligent in hearing sermons and in the vse of the Lords supper and furthermore whiche do offend the Church with their wicked life For such if they liue in the citie they are throwen out of the felowship of the wardes or companies so that they can buy and sell with no man neyther are they capable of any honoure or publike office But if they dwell in the countrey they are kept from the vse of the commō pastnres and woods And this way is most meete for vs let other cities and countries do that which they thinke to be most profitable for their people for so much as it is euident that the same forme of discipline cannot be appoynted and obserued in all places I wish the other remoued from those Courtes and this in the place of it But that Byshops may lawfully vse the true ecclesiasticall excommunication I haue proued before Denie it you as oft as you will you can shew no sound reason or ground of your deniall Chap. 2. the thirde Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. 3. And other thing is that in these courtes which they call spiritual they take the knowledge of matters which are eere ciuill thereby not only peruerting the order whiche God hath appointed in seuering the ciuil causes from y e ecclesiastical but (*) A manifest vntruth iustling also with the ciuill Magistrate and thrusting him from the iurisdiction which apperteyneth vnto him as the causes of the contracts of marriage of diuorces of willes and testaments with diuerse other such like things For although it apperteme to the Church and the gouernours thereof to shew out of the word of God which is a lawful contract or iust cause of diuorse and so foorth yet the iudiciall determination and definitiue sentences of all these do apperteine vnto the ciuill Magistrate Herevnto may be added that all their punishmentes almost are penalties of money whiche can by no meanes apperteyne to the Church but is a thing meerely ciuill Io. Whitgifte We giue to the ciuill magistrate authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes and we acknowledge Ecclesiasticall courts executed in the prin ces name all iurisdiction that any court in England hath or doth exercise be it ciuill or ecclesiasticall to be executed in hir maiesties name and righte and to come from hir as supreme gouernoure so farre are we off from iustling with hir or thrusting hir from the iurisdiction which perteyneth vnto hir neyther do we make any such distinction betwixt ciuill and ecclesiasticall causes as the Pope and you do And therfore we Who they are that iustle with the ciuill magistrate are not they that detract any thing from the ciuil magistrate but it is the Pope and you who both thrust him from the iurisdiction that by the law of God and all equitie he ought to haue in Ecclesiasticall matters God hath not so seuered ciuil causes from Ecclesiasticall but that one man may be iudge in them both and if it perteine to the Church to declare what is a lawfull contract which be the iust causes of diuorce by what reason can you proue that the iudiciall determination and definitiue sentence of those matters doth perteine to the ciuill magistrate only For is not he most méete to iudge in these causes which best vnderstandeth them but both this and that whiche followeth you speake without reason and therefore the custome of the Church and the lawes appoynted for the same now also receyued and confirmed by the ciuill magistrate with the consent of the whole Realme must be of greater force than your single words Chap. 2. the fourth Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. vlt. Thirdly as they handle matters which do not apperteyne vnto the Ecclesiastical iurisdiction so those which do apperteyne vnto the Church they do turne from their lawfull institution vnto other ends not sufferable which M. Doctor himselfe doth confesse in excommunicating for money c. Io. Whitgifte So I do indéede but it is the fault of the man not of the law Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 151. Sect. 1. Last of all they take vpon them those things which are neyther lawfull for ciuil nor ecclesiasticall iurisdiction nor simply for any man to do of which sort diuerse are reckened vp by the Abmonition and some confessed by M. Doctor I will not here speake of the vnfitnesse of those whiche are chiefe officers in these courtes that the most of thē are eyther Papists or bribers or drunkerds I know what I write or Epicures and suche as liue of benefices and Prebends in Englande and in Irelande doing nothing of those thinges whiche apperteyne vnto them and of other suche naughty persons which are not only not meete to be gouernours in the Churche but which in any reformed Church shoulde not be so much as of the Church I speake not of all I doubt not but there be some do that which they do of conscience and with minde to help forward the Churche whiche I trust will when the Lorde shall giue them more knowledge keepe themselues in theyr vocations and being men for their gifts apt and able eyther to serue the Churche or the common wealth in some other calling will rather occupy their gifts there than where they haue no ground to assure themselues that they do please God Io. Whitgifte For as much as you referre vs to the Admonition to know what these thinges be that Chancellours c. take vpō thē being lawful neyther for ciuil nor ecclesiasticall iurisdictiō I will also referre you to my Answer made to that part of the Admonition Your slaunderous and opprobrious speaches against the men hauing little to say A tast of the Repliers diuinitie against their offices they must take in good part vntill you come foorth namely to accuse them but I am sory that they being as you saye suche persons shall haue little occasion to be perswaded to amendment of life by you whome they sée as factious in religion as they are péeuish in condition as corrupt with affections as they be with bribes as deepe in spite and malice as they be in drunkennesse What diuinitie call you this thus to libell against men in authoritie whome you dare not accuse to their faces I defend them not if ther be any such nay I wish them seuerely punished but you vtter nothing lesse than the frutes of diuinitie and I woulde haue you come foorth to accuse them Touching their benefices and prebendes they will defend themselues by the examples of your adherentes whereof some haue shaken off the ministerie and yet kéepe their Prebends some misliking the state of this Church crying out of the Canon lawe the Court of faculties c. take notwithstanding all the benefyte thereby that they can some of them reteyning two some 4. c. and yet do full little duetie nay rase vp rather than plant But why do I fall into this vayne which I mislike in you I am
opiniō touching Musculus the authoritie of y e ciuill Magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters briefly but plainly in these wordes Those whome they call Ecclesiasticall persones and we call them Papistes will not commit to the magistrate any further authoritie in religion than to be the keeper and reuenger of it and of their Ecclesiasticall lawes that the ecclesiasticall pollicie maye remayne immouable wherefore they deny him to haue authoritie in that he is a magistrate to make or to publyshe any Ecclesiasticall lawes bicause suche things perteine to those that do represent the churche whose decrees and constitutions must bee mainteyned and defended by the authoritie of the magistrate This I thought good to nete before I come to answering of his argumentes that al men may vnderstand that I no otherwise charged them in this point than they haue well deserued neither haue I as yet detected all that they peruersly thinke of the authoritie of the ciuill magistrate one thing I praye you marke that here is one note A note of Anabaptisme practised by y e Rep r. practised that I haue ascribed to the Anabaptistes in my (*) Pag. 2. sect 2. Answere to the Admonition for there I shewe that the Anabaptistes accuse the true ministers of the Gospell for attributing as they saye to much to the ciuill magistrate The same doth T. C. charge me with in this place But I will nowe come to his argumentes The. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 154 Sect 1. This distinction if M. Doctor knoweth not nor hath not heard of let him looke in the seconde booke of the Chronicles in the. 19. chap. and in the. 8. and. 11. verses hee shall see that there were a You alleage the reasons of the Papilies to the same purpose with them number appointed for the matters of the lord which were priests Leuites and there were other also appointed for the kings affaires and for matters of the common wealth amongest which were the Leuites which being more in number than could be applied to the vse of the churche were sette ouer ciuill causes being therfore moste fitte for that they were best learned in the lawes of God which were the polylike lawes of that countrey There he may learne if it please him that the making of orders and giuing of iudgementes in ciuill and Ecclesiasticall in common wealth and churche matters perteyned vnto diuers persons whiche distinction the writer to the Hebrewes doth note when he sayeth (*) that the Priest was ordeyned in thinges perteyning to God Hebr. 5. Io. Whitgifte Yes I bothe knowe this distinction and haue hearde of it for I haue redde it The 〈◊〉 vseth the same distinction reasons with the Papistes in the bookes of the Papistes as I haue shewed before I haue hearde also this same place of the. 2. Chro. 19. alleaged to confirme it For Saunders in his booke before named dothe vse it to the same ende and purpose that you do that is to proue the Ciuill Magistrate to haue no authoritie in making Ecclesiasticall lawes and orders his woordes be these Likewyse Iosaphat kinge of Iuda distinguishing bothe the Saunders li. 2. cap. 1. fol. 57. powers sayde to the Leuites and Priestes Amarias the Prieste and your Bishop shall gouerne in those thinges whiche perteyne to God But Zabadias c. beholde something perteyned to the Bishop other somethinges to the office of a Kinge The same place also dothe Harding vse to the selfe same ende agaynst my Lorde of Sarisburie fol. 118. of the defense of the Apologie of the Churche of Englande from whome I beléeue you haue borrowed it Do I not say truely that you iumpe with the Papistes do you not both conspire agaynst the Ciuill Magistrate and are you not content to vse theyr very woordes and reasons greate ado there is agaynst me bycause I vse a place of Cyprian for the authoritie of an Archbishop ouer his prouince whiche the Papistes abuse for the authoritie of the Pope ouer all Christendome and here you vse the reason not onely of Papistes but of Traytours to the same ende with them that is agaynst that lawfull iurisdiction whiche wée haue giuen to our Prince and whiche hath hetherto bene maynteyned bothe by preaching and by burning But to lette this reste in the consideration of the Reader I will in fewe The place of the Replier agaynst himselfe woordes declare that this place maketh flatte agaynst you for who placed those Leuites and Priestes in Ierusalem for the iudgement and cause of the Lorde or who prescribed vnto them what they shoulde do or who gaue to them that authoritie did not Iehosaphat the texte is playne Iehosaphat had chiefe authoritie and gouernment bothe in thinges perteyning to God and in thinges perteyning to the common wealth but for better execution of them the one he did committee to be executed by Amaria the Prieste the other by Zabadiah a ruler of the house of Iuda euen as the Quéenes Maiestie beyng supreme gouernour in all causes bothe Ecclesiasticall and Temporall committeth the hearing and iudgyng of Ecclesiasticall matters to the Archbyshops and Bishops and of Temporall matters to the Lorde Chauncellour and other iudges neyther can you any more conclude that Iehosaphat had no authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes bycause he made Amarias the Prieste iudge in the same than you can that he had nothing to do in Temporall affayres bycause he appoynted also Zabadiah to heare determine them For if this reason be good the Quéene of Englande hath nothing to do with Ecclesiasticall matters bycause shée hath made the Archbishops and Bishops iudges in them then is this as good hir Maiestie hath no authoritie in Ciuill matters bycause she hath committed the same to the Lorde Chauncellour and other Iudges Thus you see howe both the Papistes and you are deceyued in one and she selfe same reason I will but note by the way that the Leuites beyng Ecclesiasticall persons had Leuites being Ecclesiasticall persons had to d in ciuill matters to do in Ciuill matters as the woordes of the texte verse 11. moste manifestly declare as for your shifte of the number of them beyng more than coulde be applyed to the vse of the Churche it is but your owne and therefore to simple to answere so playne and direct a place of the Scripture That in the fifte to the Hebrewes is farre from the purpose for the Apostle in the same sentence declareth what those things perteyning to God be Euen to offer bothe giftes and sacrifices for him I thinke you do not so malitiously reporte of vs as the Papistes do that we giue to the Prince power to minisier the Sacramentes and to preache the woorde if you do not this place can by no meanes serue your turne The. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. 2. This might M. Doctor haue learned by that whiche the noble Emperour Constantine attributeth Euseb. lib. 2. de vita Const. epi. ad Euseb.
Sozom. lib. 1. cap. 17 tom con to the Fathers of the Nicene Councell and to the Ecclesiasticall persons there gathered whiche he dothe also permitte the Byshops Elders and Deacons of Churches to do (*) A great ouersight eyther by correcting or adding or making newe if neede be And by the continuall practise of the Churche in the tyme of Christian Emperours whiche alwayes permitted vnto the ministers assembled in councels ▪ as well the determination of controuersies whiche rose as the making or the abolishing of needefull or hurtfull ceremonies as the ease requyred Also by the Emperours epistle in the first action of the councell of Constantinople where by the epistle of the Emperour it appeareth that it was the manner of the Emperours to confirme the ordināces which were made by the ministers and to see them kept Io. Whitgifte I learne in Eusebius Lib. 1. de vita Constan. that Constantinus is called as it were Euseb. lib. 1. de vita Const. Constantinus his rule in ecclesiasticall matters a generall Bishop appoynted of God that he also called Synodes and placed the moderator in them I learne in that seconde Booke that he made lawes and constitutions perteyning to holynesse towardes God and to the appoynting of meete thinges for the Churches of God that there shoulde be no Images worshipped none erected and set vp no enchauntmentes vsed or so thsayinges And I learne in that same Epistle Lib. 2. by you quoted that Constantinus prescribed to Eusebius what he shoulde do and what Epist. ad Eusel he should will others to do in buylding and repayring of Church ▪ s or enlarging of them neyther is there mention made of anyother Lawes or constitutions in that Epistle 〈◊〉 grosse ouersight of T. C. and surely I beleeue that those woordes whiche Constantinus speaketh to Eusebius of buylding or repayring or enlarging Churches buylded of stone you vnderstande of making restoring or enlarging of Ecclesiasticall orders and Lawes whiche if you do as your woordes playnely signifie then vnderstande you not the place abuse your Reader and caste away an argument For Constantinus woordes to Eusebius be thesc Howe hitherto by that wicked sentence and tyrannie persecuting Lib. 2. Eus. de vita Con lant Epist. ad Eus. the Ministers of our Sauiour the buyldinges of the Churches are decayed and weakened thorough negligence or soulde and made vyle for feare of imminent daunger I knowe and am fully perswaded but nowe libertie beyng restored and that Dragon thorough the prouidence of God and our ministerie banished from the gouernment of the common wealth I thinke Gods power is made manifest to all and that those whiche haue fallen into certayne sinnes eyther for feare or thorough vnbeleefe and nowe knowe the truthe Eusthius gouernour of me churches than one will returne agayne to the true and right waye of lyfe therefore admonishe all Churches whiche thou doest gouerne or any other Churches vnder the gouernment of other Bishops Priestes or Deacons that they be diligent aboute the buyldyng of theyr Churches and that they eyther repayre suche as stande still or enlarge them or if necessitie requyre buylde them newe and thou thy selfe or other for thee may requyre of the gouernours and Magistrates in the prouinces those thinges that be necessarie It is playne that Constantine in these woordes speaketh onely of materiall Churches and therefore you are greatly deceyued But if it were as you say do you not sée howe it maketh agaynst The place agaynst 〈◊〉 your selfe for what dothe more plainely appeare in that you saye he permitteth this vnto the Bishops c. than that the authoritie was in him and they were but his vicegerentes The continuall practise of Christian Churches in the tyme of Christian Magistrates Christian Princes haue exercised su authoritie in ecclesiastical cases Sozomenus lib. 1. cap. 17. before the vsurpation of the Bishop of Rome hath bene to giue to Christian Princes supreme authoritie in making Ecclesiasticall orders and lawes yea and that whiche is more in deciding of matters of religion euen in the chiefe and principall poyntes And that booke and chapter of Sozomene by you quoted declareth the same For the Bishops that came to the Councell of Nyce committed the hearing determining of theyr controuersies to the Emperour which argueth that it was then a common and vndoubted opinion receyued among them that the Emperour had authoritie to iudge in their causes and although the Emperour of modestie refused so to do saying that it was not meete for them so to vse themselues that they shoulde be iudged of other yet I am sure you will not make this a rule to exempt the Cleargie from the iurisdiction of the Ciuill Magistrate vnlesse you will take holde with the Pope and saie VVe muste iudge all and be iudged of none ▪ This modestie in Constantinus in refusing to heare the matters in controuersis among the Bishops excepted there is nothing in that firste booke and 17 ▪ chapter of Sozomene that can by any meanes serue your turne If you say that he woulde not determine any thing agaynst Arius heresie but A wise prince will take the aduise of the learned in discussing of weighty matters committed the same to the Synode and Councell of Nice I answere that therein be nothing at all abridged his authoritie ▪ but shewed his wisedome and godly care For it is the parte of a wise and godly Prince to haue such weightie matters of doctrine beyng in controuersie decreed and determined by suche as for their authoritie wisedome and learning are moste fitte to entreate of suche matters But alas how doth this argument follow Constantinus called the Councell of Nice to determine certayne matters of religion in controuersie therefore he had no authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall orders and lawes What Councell of Constantinople was that if you meane the. 5. beyng celebrated Iustinian made many Ecclesiasticall lawes Anno. 549. in the tyme of Iustinianus it is a very late testimonie for this cause the Bishops of Rome beyng then in great authoritie and yet manifest it is that no Emperour made mo Ecclesiasticall lawes bothe concerning matters of order and also of doctrine than did the Emperour Iustinianus as may be séene in the Code vnder these Titles De summa trinitate fide Catholica De sacrosanctis Ecclesijs de Episcopis Clericis de Haereticis Manichaeis Samaritanis ne sanctum Baptisma iteretur de statuis imaginibus and a number such like If you meane the sixth Councell of Constantinople as it lyke you do then are you without my compasse for that Councell was Anno. 681. and who will alleage Constantinus ▪ rogon ▪ gouerned the councell of Constantinople on 681. any authoritie of that corrupt tyme for any suche matter in controuersie and yet it is certayne that Constantinus the Emperoure did gouerne that Councell and that the Bishops on bothe sides did pleade before him at
as it was in the beginning of the reygnes of Ezechias and Iosias and as ▪ it hath oftentimes bene must all be committed to them then also No godly Princes hauing godly Bishops and ministers of the Churche will alter or chaunge determine or appoynt any thing in matters of religion without their aduise and counsayle But how if there be dissention among them shall not the Prince determine the controuersies as Constantinus Theodosius and other godly Emperours did wherefore the méetnesse of the Priests and Bishops doth not take away any authoritie from godly Princes in matters of the Church The. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 155. Lin. 5. And this is not M. Doctor (*) It is nothing els as will appeare to shake hands with the Papistes For the Papistes would exempt their Priestes from the subiection and from the punishment of the ciuill magistrate which we do not And y e Papists would that whatsoeuer the cleargy doth determine that that sorthwith shoulde be holden for good and the Prince shoulde be foorthwith compelled to mayntayne and set forth that be it good or euill without further inquitie but we saye (a) Why then more than at eiher timess or hawe proue you this ▪ that if there be no lawfull ministerie to set good orders as in ruinous decayes and ouerthrowes of religion that then the Prince ought to do it and if when there is a lawfull ministerie it shall agree of any vnlawfull or vnmeete order that the Prince ought to stay that order and not to suffer it but to driue them to that whiche is lawfull and meete and if this be to shake handes with the papistes then M. Doctor is to blame whiche hath taught vs once or twise before that the appoynting of ceremonies of the churche belongeth vnto the churche And yet I knowe that there is one or two of the later writers that thinke otherwise but as I take no aduantage of their authoritie which thinke as I do so I ought not to be preiudiced by those that thinke otherwise But for so muche as we haue M. Doctor yet of this iudgement that the churche ceremonies shoulde be ordeyned by the church I will trauayle no further in this matter considering that the practise of this churche commonly is to referre these matters vnto the Ecclesiasticall persons onely this is the difference that where it is done now of one or a fewe wee desire that it may be done by others also who haue interest in that behalfe Io. Whitgifte The papistes confese that the prince may punish priest 5 Harding Yes in good sooth is it for M. Harding agaynst the Apologie confesseth that the Ciuill Magistrate may punishe with corporall punishment any estate or degrée of persons offending eyther agaynst the first or second table And Saunders sayeth lib. 2. That Bishops in that they be men be subiect to ciuill Magistrates and therefore in that Saunders li 2. poynt the Papistes graunt as much as you Concerning the determination of matters in religion I know not wherein you differ from them for though the Prince mislike your determination yet can he not him selfe conclude any thing onely he may compell you to go to it agayne and The Replier giueth to the Prince no more than potestatem facti take better holde but if it shall please you to go forewarde in your determination or if you cannot agrée among your selues I see not what authoritie you haue giuen to the Ciuill Magistrate to determine the matter but for ought that I can espie if you and your Seniors be disposed to be peeuishe eyther muste the Prince haue no Religion or els that which you shall appoynt vnto him for potestatem facti you giue him that is you make him your executioner but potestatem iuris you do as fully remoue from him as the papists do for he hath not as you say any authoritie to make orders or lawes in Ecclesiasticall matters Saunders sayeth and so say all the Papistes that he hath authoritatem promouendi Saunders religionem authoritie to promote religion but not constituendi to appoynte and therefore vndoubtedly I perceyue not wherein you differ in this Article from the Papistes In the chiefe poynt I am sure that you agree fully and flatly with them and vse their argumentes and none other that is in this that you take from the eiuill Magistrate omnem potestatem iuris in matters and causes Ecclesiasticall And what Scripture haue you to proue that the ciuill Magistrates authoritie The Replier vttreth strāge doctrine with out proofe yet woulde haue all proued by scripture is not as ample and as large in matters of religion when there is a lawfull ministerie as when there is an vnlawfull ministerie In deede when he hath the one he may the more safely vse their aduise and followe theyr counsell which he neyther may nor ought to do when he hath the other but his authoritie is all one ouer them bothe and surely I marueyle that you will vtter suche straunge assertions so peremptorily without any kinde of proofe For you that woulde haue all thinges proued by the Scriptures haue not in this wayghtie cause vsed one texte of Scripture but onely one borrowed of the Papistes and making directly agaynst you When I say that the Churche hath authoritie to appoynt Ceremonies I speake generally of all states of the Churche as well vnder persecution as vnder a Christian Magistrate not secluding but including the Christian Magistrate as the chiefe and principall gouernour of the Churche committed to him nexte vnder God for I do not speake of a Christian Magistrate as you and the Papistes woulde haue me to witte as of Iulius Cesar Alexander or Nero but I speake of him as one appoynted by God to gouerne not only in the common wealth but in the Churche also Yea I will go further with you I make no difference betwixte No suche difference betweene a christian common wealth the Church as is pretended a Christian common wealth and the Churche of Christe wonder you as muche at it as you will I haue shewed my reasons before and you haue not as yet vsed any to the contrarie wherefore if you thinke no otherwise of this cause than I haue in these woordes taught you the ciuill Magistrate shall be much more beholden vnto you than he is Certaynely I knowe not of any of the late wryters one or two excepted that are of your iudgement in this cause and were it not that the same is learnedly and fully handled almoste of all the late wryters and namely of suche as haue in our tongue notably and learnedly defended this truth of the Princes authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters agaynst the English Louanistes who haue especially sought to impeach the same I woulde in more ample manner haue prosecuted this cause But for as much as their bookes are in euery mans handes it shall be sufficient to referre the Reader to my Lorde
An other reason you frame on this sorte If the mynister haue both ciuill and Ecclesiasticall power ▪ men should not be able to iudge in their consciences of the mightie operation of the worde of God in them for they might doubt whether the feare of the outward shewe of the minister carried The Repliers argument siniteth as well at the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 magistrate as at the Ecclesiasticall some stroke with them c. This is as vayne an imagination as is the other and they both may as aptly be applied agaynst the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate as agaynst the ciuill iurisdiction of the minister yea in déede they serue to the ouerthrow of all kinde of ciuill punishment For if the Magistrate make sharpe lawes for comming to the Churche hearing the woorde of God contemning religion and such like men that by such meanes are driuen to heare the woorde of God c. so at the length conuerted may doubt whether the woorde hath wrought this in them or the feare of outwarde punishment Do you not marke how he still smiteth at the Magistrate Percey te you not how neare he approcheth to the opinion of the Anabaptistes who would haue no kinde of discipline in the Church but only excommunication God vseth corporall punishment as a meanes to saluation But to Answere you briefly God vseth corporall punishments as a meanes to driue ▪ euen the elect to the hearing of the worde of God to honestie of lyfe He vseth it also to brydle the wicked that by their exāples other men might learne to beware and that they themselues also may be kepte in order And no man that is truly conuerted by the preaching of the woorde can doubt but that God by the working of his spirite thorough the ministerie of his woorde hath wrought that good in him though by externall meanes as feare of punishment and such lyke he was first as it were enforced to heare the woorde and to kéepe himselfe in order In deede if these reasons of yours were of any force the Magistrate might put vp his sworde especially in Ecclesiasticall matters and so might the minister lay aside his authoritie also least any thing be ascribed there vnto Your glaunce that this was also the pollicy of the Idolaters though you haue no where proued it yet haue I answered it before Chap. 3. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. vlt. But M. Doctor sayth that ciuill offices are not to be counted worldly affayres but heauenly and spirituall ▪ it is so and yet when they are compared with the Ecclesiasticall offices they may be called secular offices for so much as they to gether with the care of religion procure and prouide for the things whereby we may quietly and commodiously liue here where the Ecclesiasticall offices are immediatly and onely bente to procure the glory of God and the saluation of men and in that signification of heauenly and spirituall which you take marchandise husbandry and the handycrafte be heauenly and spirituall although not in the same degree All lawfull callinges came from God and returne to him agayne that is he is both author of them and they ought to be referred to his glory so that if the mynister may exercise all things which be heauenly and spirituall you may as well bryng him downe to the plough as promote him to the court Io. Whitgifte I call them Ecclesiasticall bycause they perteyne to the inwarde man to the The cluill iurisdiction now vsed is in some respect ecclesiasticall reformation of manners to the punishment of sinne to the mayntenance of Religion to the quietnesse of the Churche and good order in the same so do not all cyuill offices much lesse husbandry marchandise handycraftes goyng to the plough and suche lyke whiche onely perteyne to the body and to this lyfe not beyng referred to the endes that I haue before named Wherefore here your wittes fayled you and I looke for a better Answere Chap. 3. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Lin. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 M. Doctor sayth that the office of a commissioner is Ecclesiasticall bycause it handleth Ecclesiasticall causes I maruell that he is so ignorant that he can not put a difference betwene giuing iudiciail sentences and appoynting bodely punishments whiche are meere ciuill and betweene the vnderstanding the truth of euery such cause according as the worde of God defineth of it which is a thing common as well vnto the magistrate as vnto the mynister wherein the mynister bycause he ought to be most ready ought if neede be consulted with Io. Whitgifte Surely I thinke you scarse vnderstande your selfe for if the causes be Ecclesiasticall why may not the punishment by the Magistrate appoynted vnto them be executed by Ecclesiasticall persons hauing authoritie from the Prince by commission so to do and if the Ecclesiasticall person may giue sentence and iudgement in these Ecclesiastical causes why may he not consent also to the punishments appointed for the same I do not meane he should be the Iaylor or tormentor himselfe but to iudge the person offending worthy of this or that kinde of punishment and to giue sentence of the crime that he hath committed to determine of the cause that is called into iudgement Chap. 3. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 1. An other of M. Doctors reasons is that as kinges do serue Christe by makyng lawes for him so Bishops do serue Christe by executyng lawes for him as though it perteyned not vnto the Magistrates to execute lawes as well as to make them and as if the magistrate were not therefore called a speaking lawe bycause by executing them he dothe cause the lawes after a fashion to speake This is to deuide the stake of the magistrate betweene him and the Bishop yea to gyue the Byshop the best parte of it For we know that with vs the people be at making of the lawes which may not meddle with the execution of them And if M. Doctor say that he meaneth not hereby to shut the Prince from executing the lawes then as his similitude when it is at the best proueth nothing so by this meanes it halts downe right and is no similitude Io. Whitgifte The Prince executeth his lawes by himselfe he also executeth them by other to whome he hath giuen that authoritie for the fuller and better execution of them in this number are the Bishops for the authoritie they haue in suche matters they haue from the Prince and therefore their executing of it is not to deuide stake with the Cyuill Magistrate but to do good seruice both to God and the Magistrate Chap. 3. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 217. Sect 1. 2. What say you to Elye and Samuell were they not both Priests Samuell priest iudge and iudges what office did the Prophete Elias execute when he killed the false prophets of Baal 1. Reg. 18. or Christ when he whipt the
Collections made in vaine and framed according to your owne pleasure not so my meaning If you haue done it of ignorance you are to be excused if of set purpose you are to be blamed And wheras you say that M. Doctor must vnderstand that this was ecclesiastical powers Peters punishing of Ananias was by ciuill iurisdiction ▪ Beza de Haeret à Magist. puniendis I say on the other side that you must vnderstand that this was not ecclesiasticall but méere ciuill which you might haue learned of M. Beza in diuers places of his booke de Haereticis à Magistratu pun For thus he writeth Cedò igitur Christus quo iure flagellum his corripuit quo iure Petrus Ananiam Sapbiram occidit quo iure Paulus Elymam excaecauit ▪ Num ecclesiastici ministerij minimè profectò nisi iurisdictiones confundas Ergo ciuilis Magistratus iure Nihil enim est tertium Tell me therefore by what lawe did Christ take the whip in hand twise by what law did Peter kill Ananias and Saphira by what right did Paule strike Elymas with blindnesse did they those things by the right of the ecclesiasticall ministerie no truly except you will confound iurisdictions They did it therefore by the right of ciuill magistracie for ther is no meane And to the same purpose doth he speake sundry times in that booke What outcries I haue vsed or declamations which you haue not in ample manner requited adding to the same al opprobrious kind of speaches and iesting taunts that you could deuise let the indifferent Reader iudge wherfore I hartely wish vnto you both better knowledge and better conscience Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 171. Sect. 1. Unto M. Doctor asking where it appeareth that Pope Eugensus brought in prisons into the Church as also vnto the three or fower such like demands ▪ which he maketh in this booke the authours of the Admonition answer at once that this and the other are found in Pantaleon and M. Bales Chronicles Io. Whitgifte What authors doe they alleadge for them for bothe these be but very late writers and this is a matter of historie and therfore requireth some greate antiquitie nerer vnto the tyme of Eugenius who liued Anno. 650. but you knowe verie well that our Bishops claim not this authoritie by any constitution or canon of the Pope neither doe they exercise it in their owne name but they haue it from the Prince and in hir name and by hir authoritie do they vse it Chap. 3. the. 14. Diuision Bishop of Sarum Both these gouernments vvere confounded in Moses Therfore they may be confounded and the Priestes of Israell had the iudgement and gouernment Ecclesiastical and ciuill iurisdiction confounded in Moses of the people and S. Augustine was troubled with hearing and determining of causes as it appeareth by Possidonius And where you say to be a chief or a ruler is a ciuill gouernment nay in ecclesiasticall causes it is ecclesiasticall gouernment and not ciuill And these differences of gouernment Augustine heareth ciuill causes may not so vnaduisedly be confounded This is the key of ecclesiasticall correction and belongerh onely to the ecclesiasticall officer and to none other Hereof Saincte Paule sayth Seniorem ne corripueris nisi sub c. Tradidi illum Satanae This iurisdiction is not ciuill but ecclesiasticall and therfore may be exercised by an ecclesiasticall person T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 1. 2. Here I wyll take in that whiche the Bishop of Sarisburye hath in the last page of his half sheete touching this matter And fyrst of all I well agree that he sayth that to giue vnto Sathan which is to excommunicate and to correct an ecclesiasticall person by reprehension or putting him out of the ministerie if the cause so require is mere ecclesiastical and not ciuill and that those things ought to be done of the officers of the Churche This onely I denye that the ministers ought to medle with ciuill offices For proofe whereof the Bishop alleageth the example of Augustine whiche as Possidonius writeth was troubled with the hearing determining of causes Wherin Possidonius sayth nothing but that I willingly agree vnto For the minister with the elders ought both to heare and determine of causes but of such causes as perteyne vnto their knowledge whereof I haue spoken before And that Possidomus ment such causes as belonged vnto Augustine as he was a minister and not of ciuill affaires it appeareth by that which he writeth immediatly after where he sayth Being also consulted of by certain in their worldly affaires he wrote epistles to diuers but he accounted of this as of compulsien and resiraynte from his better busynesses Wherby it appeareth that S. Augustine medled not with those worldly affaires further than by way of giuing counsell which is not vnlawfull for a minister to doe as one friende vnto another so that his ministerie be not therby hindered Io. Whitgifte What S. Augustine did in such matters and whether he weroccupied in worldly Augustine iudge in worldely matters matters or no and that he was not a counsell giuer only but also a iudge it shall best appeare by his owne wordes spoken of himselfe whiche are so playne and euident that after you haue hearde them you will be ashamed of this answere to Possidonius and of your former assertion also Augustine therefore in his booke de opere Aug. lib. de opere Monac Monachorum of this matter writeth thus VVho feedeth a flock and doth not receiue of the milke of the flocke And yet I call to witnesse vpon my soule the Lorde Iesus in whose name I doe boldely speake these thinges that touchyng myne owne commoditie I hadde rather euerye daye as it is appoynted in well ordered Monasteries to woorke some thyng wyth my handes and to haue the other houres free to reade and to praye or too dooe somme thynge in the Holye Scriptures than too suffer the tumultuous perplexities of other mennes causes touchyng secular businesse eyther in determinyng them by iudging or in cutting them off by intreatyng to the whyche troubles Augustine thinketh that the how ghost hath bounde Bishops to ciuill causes the Apostle hathe bounde vs not by his owne iudgement but by the iudgement of hym whyche didde speake in him and yet hee himselfe did not suffer these troubles for the discourse of his Apostleship was otherwyse Here in playne woordes hée declareth that it was secular busynesse aboute the whyche he was occupyed and although he séeme to complayne of the multitude of suche businesse yet dothe hee acknowledge the same to bee lawfull iuste and conueniente and therefore he addeth and sayeth VVhyche laboure notwythstandyng wee suffer not without the consolation of the Lorde for the hope of eternall lyfe that wee maye bryng foorthe frute wyth pacience for wee are seruauntes of that Churche and especially to the weaker members what members soeuer wee are in the same bodie And
in the Defense for Archbishops and the superiority of Bishops 470. c. ¶ Archdeacons 344. c. ¶ Archiflamines 320. c. 323 ¶ Argumentum à secundùm quid ad simpliciter 23 Argumentum ab authoritate negatiuè 24. 26. 77. 328. 543 Argument of Negatiues by comparison 26 27 Argumentum à petitione principij 26. 62. 95. 249. 302. 304. 314. 322. 440. 451. Argumentum à non causa pro causa 27. 293. 482. Argumentum ab aequivocatione 62 Argumentum à facto ad us 142. 161. 505. Argumentum ab authoritate affirmatiuè 78 Argumentum ex solis particularibus pag. 79 Argumentum ab ignorantia Elenchi 109. 181. 187. 206. 426. A deformed argument 316. c. Arguments borowed of the Papists 466. 696. 697. 698. c. Argumentum à toto ad partes affirmatiuè 265 ¶ Aristotle not rightly alleaged 243 ¶ Arrogancie cloked with zeale 42 Arrogancie disprayseth good things pag. 725 Arrogancie of the libellers 57 ¶ Assertion vnaduised 475 ¶ Athanasius Archbishop 471. 339 Athanasius Creede 496 Athanasius being a child baptized pag. 519. ¶ Atheists in the Church 178 ¶ Auncient Fathers contemned of the vnlearned 811 ¶ Augustine of thinges indifferent pag. 99. c Augustine deliuered from vntrue surmises 100 Augustine heareth ciuill causes 771. 772. Augustine retorted vpon the aduersarie 811 ¶ Aurelius Bishop of Carthage had the ouersight of many Churches pag. 471 ¶ Authoritie the best proofe in Diuine matters 200 B ¶ Babling in prayer what it is 805 ¶ Baptisme the sacrament of fayth pag. 608. 609 Matters touching baptisme 607. c Of the parties to be baptised 619. c Baptisme once ministred remaineth perpetuall 622 The essentiall poynte of Baptisme pag. 519. Baptisme called priuate in respect of the place 93. 504 Baptisme ministred but once a yere pag. 238 Baptisme true though not ordinarily ministred 517. 521 Differring of Baptisme not cōuenient 521 Baptisme by lay men 518. 519. 523. Baptisme by women not collected out of the booke 504. 793. Baptisme by women not defended pag. 509. 516. 29. Baptisme ministred in priuate places 511. c. 513. Necessitie in Baptisme 523. Baptisme ministred withoute preaching 563 The name of Baptisme transferred to the giftes of the spirit 564 ¶ Basilius a Metropolitane 341. 471 ¶ Battus a babling Poet. 805 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 804 ¶ Beggers and ignorant persons are thoughte onely to bee saued of some 10 ¶ To beleue and to be elected not al one 611 ¶ Benedictus 494. c. 496. 497 ¶ Beza calleth the names of Archbishops c. holy names 472 Beza his iudgemēt of baptising the children of excommunicate person c. 623. 624. ¶ Bishops moste mete to haue the examination of ministers 131 Bishope haue authoritie to admitte ministers 196. c Bishops appointe their successours pag. 205 Bishops authoritie 297. c 408. Bishops called heades of the Churches 301 One ministerie of Bishops but diuerse degrees 320 A Byshop aboue a priest in Cyprians time 358 One Byshoppe in one Cittie 366. 444. Difference betwixte Byshoppe and Priest 383 Byshoppes in the Apostles tymes pag. 384. 470 Ieromes Byshoppe aboue an Elder in rule 385 Byshops gouernours simply not of one action onely 3 Byshoppes authoritie consisteth in offences 75 Byshop high priest 411. 470. 471. VVhat kinde of authoritie Byshops exercise 420 Byshoppes succede Apostles in gouernment 32 Comparison betwixte our Byshope and the olde Bishops 472 〈◊〉 Byshops alone excommunicate 6 6 c. Byshops may haue assistance in excommunication 673 Authoritie ascribed to Bishops in x communication not infinite but limited 6 8 Byshops gaue sentence in ciuill causes 773 ¶ A Bloudy assertion 150 ¶ Booke of common prayer Looke Communion Booke Booke of ordering Ministers iustifyed concerning examination pag. 134. 〈◊〉 42 The reasons of T. C. agaynste the Booke of ordering Ministers pag. 134. c ¶ Bodye what it signifieth in Caluine 46 Of these wordes The Body of ou e Lord Iesus Christ. c. 6 ¶ Bragges 58. 297 ¶ Bread in the Communion Looke Communion Bread ¶ Brethren may be punished 809 ¶ Bucer of things indifferēt 113. c. Bucers censure of the first Communion Booke 595 615 Bucer defaced by the Replyer 522 ¶ Burialls 727. c The place of Buriall 737 The dutie of the minister not hindred by burying the dead 730 A prayer at Buryall expounded pag. 729 The dead buryed by the minister with prayer 728 Buriall Sermons Looke funerall sermons C ¶ Caius Fimbria 7 8 ¶ Caluine acknowledgeth the names of Archbishop c. 417. c Caluine of thinges indifferente 109 c. Caluine alloweth Superioritie 390. 398. Diuerse editions of Caluines institutions 391. 50 Caluines opinion of Communion bread 592. c ¶ Canon law not altogether condemned 463 c ¶ Can is not taken for ought 778 ¶ Catechist and pastor differ 425 Catechi mes 152. c ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 69 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 69 ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 280 ¶ Cathedrall Churches 742. c Cathedrall Churches before Antichristian Popes 747 A Colledge of Ministers in euery citie 747. Our Cathedrall Churches not much differing from those of old time pag. 747 The vse of Cathedrall Churches necessary 747 ¶ Cauilles 130. 352. 401. 506. 574. 585 628. ¶ A Caueat 448 A necessary caueat 481 ¶ Ceremonies of 2. sortes 80 How we haue but 2. ceremonies 119 Substantiall ceremonies 80 Accidentall ceremonies 80 Rules of ceremonies 86. 87 The controuersie about ceremonies confessed by T. C. 85. 86. 126 Euery church hath an order of ceremonies 707 How Ceremonies serue to edifying pag. 286. c. VVhy God appointed so many ceremonies to the Iewes 305 Disterence betwixt Popish ceremonies and oures 616 The ground of the Assertion about ceremonies vnanswered by T. C. pag. 94 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 158. c. 163 ¶ Children of Papists and excommu nicate persons may bee baptisedpag 621. c How children are said to beleue 608 ¶ Christ called Archbishop 300 Christ vsed vnleauened biead 593. c. ¶ Christian men sheepe but reasonable 172 The number of Christiās more now than in the Apostles times 175 ¶ Chrisostome an Archbishop 412. c. 472. Chris stome exerciseth Archiepiscopall iurisdiction in Asia 414 Chrisostome of distinctiō of degrees pag. 387 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 682 ¶ Church cannot be shut vp in one prouince now 465 The Church is reformed not transformed 474 To frame all churches after one is daungerous 481. 482 Church for the gouernours of the church 636. 66 No church maye challenge to bee a patterne necessarily to be followed 704 The church full of hypocrites 176 Some in the church and not of the church 179 No church established in the Apostles time how 180. 18 The church in persecution in Constantines time 188. 189 The Authoritie of the church in things indifferent 76. c. VVhat thinges are left to the order of the church 83. 88. c. 713. The
determination of the church ought not lightly to be altered 89 ¶ Churching of women 534. c. The cause of the womans absence from the church after hir dehuerance 535 ¶ Circumstances necessarie are commaunded 512 ¶ Circumcision a sacrament 618 Circumcision in priuate houses 515 ¶ Cypriā chooseth without consent of the people 205 Cyprian of the office of an Archbishop 354. c. 367. c. Cyprian a Metropolitane 356. 438. 470. ¶ Ciuil offices in Ministers 749. c. Ciuill offices in our Ministers tend to the gouernment of the church pag. 75 Ciuill authoritie not claimed but committed to our Bishops 752 Some Ciuill offices rather helpes than hinderances to Bishops 753 Augustine iudgeth ciuill causes pag. 772. Ciuil iurisdiction that the Pope claimeth not like to that in vse in this church 759. 778 A greater ciuill iurisdiction sought for in disprouing the lesse 760 Ciuil iurisdictiō in vse in this church is in some respect ecclesiasticall pag. 766. 771 Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall offices met in one 767. 771. Ciuil offices in ministers not against the word of God 773. The practise of the Church for ciuil offices in ministers 773. Ciuill businesse incident to Byshops by the iudgemente of the holye Ghost 772. 774. ¶ Clement 319. c. Clements Epistle read in the church pag. 719. ¶ Collect vpon Trinitie Sunday 491 Collect of the 12. Sunday after Trinitie Sunday 491. ¶ Coemiteria 250. ¶ Commaundementes of diuerse kindes 103. All the commaundementes of God and of the Apostles are not nedefull for our saluation 103. ¶ Cōmunitie in the Apostles times pag. 162. ¶ Comelinesse externall is alterable 98. The iudgement of comelinesse resteth not in priuate men 87. ¶ Communion Booke 474. c. Communion in priuate places 5 4. 525. Communion ministred to the sicke pag. 527. c Of the number of Communicantes pag. 528. c. Basill would haue 12. at the least to communicate 530. Of compelling men to communicate 531. 532. 605. Men not meete to cōmunicate may be admitted to the hearing of the word and prayer 533. The Apostles began the communion wyth the Lordes prayer 588. 602. Matters touching the Communion pag. 588. c. Examination of Communicantes pag. 591. c. Two things worthie to be noted of Communicantes 592. Examination of communicants not disallowed 593. Communion bread 593. c. Alexander appoynted vnleauened breed 594. Bucers opinion of Communion bread 594. Caluines opinion of Communion bread 594. Christ vsed vnleauened bread 595. The kinde of bread indifferent 595. Communion at mariages 724. Of shutting mē from the Communion 603. Men persisting in wickednesse are not to be compelled to the communion 605. Halfe communion 737. The makers of the Communion booke praised 711. ¶ Companions of Paule chosen by consent and why 163. ¶ Comparisons vnequall 710. ¶ Conferēce a cause of better know ledge 176. Conference offered to the Replyer hath bene by him refused 354. 7. ¶ Confirmation 725. c 785. 786. Abuse of confirmation in the Popishe Church 786. Confirmation of old time like ours pag. 786. Confirmation at the length allowed 794. The ende of confirmation 794. ¶ Confusion follovveth the doctrin of the Admonitors 3. 559. 746. ¶ Conscientia mille testes 503. ¶ Consuls and their authoritie 396. ¶ Constantine made Ecclesiasticall lawes 698 ¶ Contention defended 34. 377. Contentiō a hinderance to the profession of diuinitie 141. VVho be contentious 13. 14. ¶ Contraries may be defined wyth one difference 124 Some delighte to be contrarie to tymes 283. Men of contrarie iudgement ioy ne against the truth 51. Howe contraries muste be cured by contraries 476. ¶ Conuenticles 41. ¶ Corruption 485 Corruption in the Churche in the Apostles time 349. ¶ Councels summoned by princes page 436 Varietie about the time of the coūcell of Nice 330. The meaning of the. 6. Can. of the councell of Nice Controuersie about the number of Canons of the councell of Nyce page 334. The seconde councell of Nyce alleaged by the Replyer 247. A corrupt councell of Vrbane alleaged by the Replyer 23. A corrupt councell of Hispall alleaged by the Replyer 442. ¶ Courtes of Byshops 679. c. Court of faculties 561. Ecclesiasticall courtes executed in the Princes name 680. ¶ Crossing in Baptisme 614. c. Difference betwixt the papists crossing and ours 616. Crossing no Sacrament 617. ¶ Curates allowed 245. ¶ Cursed things consecrated to god page 284. D. ¶ Damasus alleaged to a wrong pur pose 248. Damasus added Gloria patri 489. ¶ Dayes obseruing of dayes 546. 547. 549. 〈◊〉 kindes of obseruing of Dayes 546 ¶ Deacons chosen by consent and vvhy 164 Of ministring preaching by Deacons 582. c Philip a Deacon baptised 582. 515 Deacons helpe in the ministration pag. 585 The Deaconship a step vnto the ministery 587 Deacons baptised 588. c. More pertayneth too the office of a Deacon than prouision for the poore 687. c. Some parte of the Deacons office not necessary vnder a Christian Prince 689. 690 VVhether Deacons were in euerye congregation 689 VVhy the Apostles left the Deaconship 758 ¶ Deanes 347. 746 ¶ Decrees pertayning too order not onely humane 107 ¶ Degrees of honour in the ministerie 458 Degrees in Diuinitie condemned 780. 781. Degrees in the Vniuersitie condemned 782 To take away Degrees is barbarousnesse 420 To be deliuered from euill what it signifieth 498 ¶ Demetrius bishop of Alexandria and Egypt 470 ¶ Defyling the nature of thinges is not in mans power 285 How farre the precepte in Deuteromie is extended 117 ¶ Digressions frō the matter to the persons 24. 235. 351. 370. 512. ¶ Dic Ecclesiae interpreted 636. 663 ¶ Dionisius Areopagita Archbishop of Athens 470. 324 Dionysius Ariopagite vsed of maister Ievvell agaynst Harding 608 Dionysius Alexandr Bishop of Alexandria and Pentapolis 470 Dionysius Corinthius b 719 Dionysius Corinth his epistles read in the Church 719 Dionysius deuided parishes 249. 250. ¶ Dioscorus Archbishop 338. 471. ¶ Discipline necessarie 559 Matters concerning Discipline 660 VVherein Discipline consisteth 661 The execution of Discipline not gyuen equally to all 313 ¶ Distinction quoad ministerium quoad ordinem iustified 390 Disobedience in ciuill matters is disobedience to God 282 Dissention domesticall the fo erunner of Destruction 705 ¶ Doctors of law left out of the Admonition and way 783 ¶ Doctrine framed to mens persons pag. 148 All pointes of Doctrine pure in this Church 129 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 interpreted 461 ¶ Dominion hath diuerse significations 63 Some kind of temporall Dominion denied to ministers 64 A minister maye exercise temporall Dominion 64. 65 ¶ Donatists and their properties 50. 622. ¶ A doubtfull saying 255 ¶ Drun kardes in the visible church pag. 177 E ¶ Easter obserued of the Apostles pag. 〈◊〉 ¶ King Edwardes priestes left 〈◊〉 pag. 〈◊〉 ¶ Elections act 1. act 6. agree 〈◊〉 pag. 〈◊〉 Elections by the people not 〈◊〉 in the Apostles time 〈◊〉 Elections by the people not generall in
authoritie to take héede of them Let men apply them as they sée cause and haue experience there can be no hurte in that it shall make them the more circumspect and arme them agaynst the hypocriste of diuers Howe the authors of both the Admonitions do agree with the Anabaptistes in these forenamed practises I haue declared in my answere to your Reply You falsifie my wordes when you affyrme that I say they agree wyth the Anabaptists in all the forenamed practises and qualities for I haue not this vniuersall signe all if they agrée with them in many they are to be suspected I thinke the Anabaptistes themselues as they haue diuers and seuerall opinions in doctrine so had they also sundrie qualities concerning lyfe and conuersation and yet some there are which be common to them all I know that all the estates and orders of this Realitie hate Anabaptisme I require not your promyse for that matter which you offer vnto me Satis pro imperio I know their detestation of that heresie and therefore I am holde to open these practises qualities vnto them least they may by some mens hypocrisie and close dealing be deceiued My words and writings be publike my speaches plaine and therefore if I sting it is openly inoughe The priuie hissers and stingers he those that secretelye smyte theyr neighbour and hisse at them in their absence at tables and in corners and sting them behinde their backes whē they are not present to answere for themselues Such adders and Scorpions swarme among you Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 5. Sect. 6. Moreouer it may please you to consider the conditions practises of the Donatists who deuided them selues frō the congregation Donatistes and had their peculiar Churches or rather conuenticles in Africa They taughte also that all other Churches were spotted and impure bycause of their Ministers Finally that there ought to be no compulsion vsed in matters of Religion and fayth and that none should be punished for their conscience T. C. Page 7. Sect. 4. Nowe you carie vs from the Anabaptistes in Europe to the Donatistes in Affricke and you will paynte vs wyth their colours but you want the oyle of truth or 〈◊〉 of truth to cause your colours to cleaue and to endure The Lorde be praysed that your breath although it be 〈◊〉 anke yet it is not so strong y t it is able eyther to turne vs or chaunge vs into what formes it pleaseth you I shall desire the reader to loke Theodoret lib. 4. de fabulis Haereticorum Augustin ad quod-uult-Deum and in his firste and second bookes agaynst 〈◊〉 Letters where he shall fynde of these heretikes that by comparing them wyth these to whome M. Doctor lyk eth them the smoke of this accusation mighte the better appeare For these sclaunders are not worthe th answering To this diuision from the Churches and to your supposed conuenticles I haue answered They taught that there were no true Churches but in Affrica we teache nothing lesse than that there is no true Churche but in Englande If the Churches be considered in the partes whether Minister or people there is none pure and vnspotted and this is the faythe of the true Churche and not of the Donatistes if it be considered in the whole and generall gouernment and outwarde pollicie of it it may be pure and vnspotted for any thing I knowe if men would laboure to purge it The Donatists vaunted themselues to be exempted from sinn and what lykelyhoode is there betwene any assertion of the authors of the Admonition and this fansie of the Donatistes To the last poynt of no compulsion to be vsed in matters of Religion denying it to be true I referre the further answere to an other place Io. Whitgifte This that I haue set downe of the Donatistes is all true neyther can you disproue one word of it I write so much of their practises as he correspondent to the doings The admonitors compared with the Donatistes of the Authors of the Admonition The Donatistes deuided th mselues from the co gregation and had peculiar Churches or rather conuenticles in Affrica These also deuide themselues from the Churche And although they tye not the Churche of Christ to any one corner yet haue they their seuerall Churches and secrete meetings The 〈◊〉 made thys their excuse why they departed from other Churches bycause they were not pure and vnspotted and their ministers of euill life These men for the lyke causes separat themselues from the Churche also The Donatistes woulde haue no 〈◊〉 vsed in 〈◊〉 of Religion and fayth These men in effecte be lykewise mynded for they woulde haue no 〈◊〉 punishement vsed which may appeare y that which is written in the second 〈◊〉 fol. 57. where they saye that it 〈◊〉 not to make any lawes 〈◊〉 m ere 〈◊〉 bycause the gouernment of the Second Admoni fol. 57. Churche is 〈◊〉 per 〈◊〉 the worde and fol. 56. and in 〈◊〉 plates else they speake to the lyke purpose whereof occasion will be g uen hereafter better to consider Augustine in his 〈◊〉 de haeresibus ad quod-vult 〈◊〉 heweth that some of the Donatistes Aug. de baeresib ad quod-vult were also Arians but not all 〈◊〉 some of them were Circumcellions of which secte 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the place by you cyted But what is all 〈◊〉 to ▪ Lib. 4 de fab Haeret. the 〈◊〉 speake ot of their opinions nor of all theyr conditions but of such onely wherein these that separate them selues in oure dayes séeme to agrée wyth them Similia as you knowe agrée not in all poyntes it is sufficient if they doe in those things in quibus 〈◊〉 Neyther doe I anye otherwyse reporte of them than M. Caluine him selfe doth in his booke against the Anabaptistes and Augustine with others that write of them Surely neyther in the whole nor in parte can the Churche be vnspotted in this world no not in the outwarde pollicie and gouernment of it neyther doe I thinke that you are able to shewe any examples of suche Puritie we haue to the contrarie euen in the Apostolicall Churches in the Apostles tyme as the Churche of Corinth and of the Galatians Maister Caluine in hys booke aduersus Anabaptistas is directly against you and in déede I thinke that you are not able to shewe one learned writer of your opinion in this poynt Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 5. Sect. 7. To conclude these men flatly ioyne with the Papistes and by the selfe same assertions bende their force against this Churche of Englande T C. Pag. 7. Sect. vlt. Salomon sayth that the beginnyng of the ordes of an vnwise man is folyshnesse b t the Ecclef 10. ver 13. latter ende of them is mere madnesse euen so it 〈◊〉 oute by you for whilest you suffer your selfe to be caryed headlong of your affections you hurle you knowe not what nor at whome whatsoeuer commeth firste to
Gentils seeke where he dothe not forbidde them to séeke for meate drynke and clothing but to séeke for it too carefully and with mistrust of Gods prouidence as the Gentiles did In lyke maner here he forbiddeth not gouernment either in the ciuil or Ecclesiasticall state but he forbiddeth suche gouernment as the Gentils vsed and such corrupt affections as they had in desiring the same Touchying your argument I saye it hath two faultes Fyrst it is a fallacion Two faultes in the argument of T. C. à petitione principij for you take it as graunted that the Ciuill Magistrate is seuered from the Ecclesiasticall officer by bearyng dominion whyche I will not simplye graunte vnto you for that is partely oure question Secondly your minor is ambiguous The ciuill Magistrate doth not simply biffer from the Ecclesiastical by bearing dominion and therfore in that respect your argumente may be also placed in the fallacion of aequiuocation for the worde Dominion may haue diuers significations It may signifye suche dominion as Christe speaketh of in this place that is rule with oppression It maye also signifie the absolute authoritie of a Prince suche as is mentioned 1. Samuell 8. Thyrdely it maye signifie any peculiar office of superioritie and gouernment vnder the Prince at the appoyntment of the Prince as the Diuers significations of the word Dominion authoritie of a Iudge Iustice. Maior c. Laste of all it may signifye any iurisdiction or kynde of gouernment If you take it in eyther of the two fyrst significations your minor is true if in either of the two latter significations it is false For wée graunte that there is greate difference betwixte the dominion of Kings and Princes and betwixte the Jurisdiction and authoritie of Bishoppes Kings haue power ouer lyfe and goodes c. so haue not Bishops Kings haue authoritiie in al causes and ouer all persons withintheir dominions without any limitation if Bishops haue any suche dominion especially in Ciuill causes it is not in the respects they be Bishops but it is from the Prince and limited vnto them Touching theyr names and titles you saye he putteth a difference in these woordes and they are called gracious Lordes but it shall not be so with you c. The woordes of the twentith of Mathewe bée these And they that are greate exercise authoritie ouer them In the. 10. of Marke the same woordes be vsed In the. 22. of Luke the Gréeke woorde is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 benefici vocantur they are called bountifull or beneficiall whyche I sée not howe you can by anye meanes applye to your purpose For Mathewe and Marke referre thys clause It shall not bee so among you not to anye name but to the ambition and tyrannicall kynde of dominion whyche our Sauioure Christe there reproueth as it is moste manyfeste And therefore thys place of Luke muste also bée expounded by them Neither is this woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of any suche imperiousnesse that Chryste shoulde forbyd Caluinus hys Disciples the name M. Caluine in his Commentaries interpretyng these woordes of Saincte Luke sayeth thus As touchyng the woordes where Mathewe hath that kings exercise authoritie ouer them in Luke wee reade that they are called bountyfull in the same sense as though he shoulde saye Kings haue plenty of all thyngs and are very ryche so that they maye bee bountyfull and liberall And a little after he sayeth that they doe appetere laudem munificentiae desire the commendation of bountyfulnesse I knowe that certayne of the Kynges of Egypte were called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 munifici benefactores bountifull and benefactours and that they were delyghted to bée so called I know also that among the Hebrues theyr Princes were called Munifici liberales per antonomasian But what then if eyther they vaynegloriously desyred that name or were so called when they deserued rather the names of Tyrantes and oppressoures dothe it therefore followe that they be vnlawfull names for suche as maye deserue them The moste that can bée gathered of this place for any thyng that I perceyue is that the Kings of the Gentiles had vayne and flattering titles giuen them béeing nothing lesse in déede than that whiche their names did signifie and so maye it bée a good admonition for menne Howe the wordes Vos autem non sic may be reserred to names to learne to answere to theyr names and titles and to doo in déed that whiche by snche names and titles is signified Nowe then if you will haue Vos autem non sic but it shall not bee so wyth you to bée a prohibition to all Christians and especially to Bishops that they shall not ambitiously seeke dominion as the Gentiles dyd vniustly and tyrannously vse their authoritie as they also dyd nor haue names and titles to the whiche they doe not accordingly answere no more than the Gentiles did then I agrée with you But if you will haue Vos autem non sic to restrayne them from being called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is liberal benefactors c. as your interpretatiō agréeth not with the wordes of the other two Euangelistes so doth it not wyth any learned interpreter that I haue read To your argument concerning names and titles I answere as I did to the former Diuers kyndes of names Some names titles are proper to the ciuil Magistrate only as the names of Emperor King Prince Duke Erle c. These names are not giuē to any of the Clergie in this Church to my knowledge some names are cōmon to the Ciuill Magistrate Names common to ciuill and Ecclesiastical persons with Ecclesiasticall persons as certaine names of reuerence of superioritie of office The name of Gratious Lorde is a name of superioritie and of reuerence according to the manner of the countrey where it is vsed and therefore may well agrée eyther to the ciuill or Ecclesiasticall persons and in many places dyuers are called by this name Lord which is in Latin Dominus for reuerence and ciuilitie whiche haue verie small dominion As for the name of Archebishoppe or Metropolitane that is not proper to any ciuill Magistrate and therfore without the compasse of your argument Thus then you sée that some titles are proper to the ciuill Magistrate some to the Ecclesiasticall and some common to both wherby your maior is vtterly ouerthrowne As for this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vpon the whiche you séeme to grouude your argument I see not why it may not be common to all men that shewe themselues liberall and beneficiall There is no man denyeth but that there is and must be great difference betwixt the pompe and outwarde shewe of a Prince and the state of an Ecclesiasticall person bothe in titles and other maiestie and I thinke that he is verie blynde that séeth it not so to be in this Churche of England yet may the Ecclesiasticall person shewe foorth the countenance of his degrée
same to appoint as they shal thinke most conuenient and agréeable to the generall rules giuen in the scripture for that purpose Neither is this contrarie to any thing that I haue written But bothe in this and that also whiche immediatly foloweth you are contrarie to your self and directly ad oppositum to the Admonition T. C. is contrarie to himselfe and to the Admonition and agreeth with the answere As by conference may appeare for these be your owne wordes Whereby it lykewyse appeareth that we denye not but certayne things are lefte to the order of the Churche bycause they are of that nature which are varyed by tymes places persons other circumstances and so coulde not at once be set downe and established for euer And yet so left to the order of the Church as that it doe nothyng against the rules aforesayde What dothe this differ from these wordes of myne It is also true that nothing in Ceremonies order discipline or gouernmente of the Churche is to be suffered against the word of God and to this end doe all those authorities and places tende that I haue alledged for this matter So that eyther you vnderstand not me or not your selfe or else your quarell is againste the person not the cause The admonition in this poynt you defende not for it sayeth directly that those things only are to be placed in Fol. 19. Gods Church whiche the Lorde himselfe in his worde commaundeth And although peraduenture you will shifte this off by saying that they meane suche things only as bée commaunded eyther generally or specially yet the whole discourse of their booke declareth that their meaning is that nothing ought to be placed in the Church which is not specially commaunded in the worde of God But séeing you and I agrée in this that the Church hath authoritie to ordeyn ceremonies and make Orders whiche are not expressed in the woorde of God it remayneth to bée considered wherein we differ whiche is as I thinke in this that I say the Churche of England hath lawfully vsed her authoritie in suche ceremonies orders as she hath appointed nowe retaineth and you denie the same so that your controuersie is against the Church of England and the Ceremonies and orders vsed therein And therefore you adde and saye but howe doth this follow that certaine things are left to the order of the Churche therfore to make a newe ministerie c. Whereby you giue vs to vnderstande that the things you misselike in this Church are the office and name of an Archbishop whiche you vntruly call a newe ministerie as it is by me declared in my answere to the Admonition oure ministerie the gouernment of our Church and as you say other more that is all thinges at your pleasure But how iustly and truly this is spoken shall appeare in their proper places In the meane tyme it is sufficient to tell you that you are an vnwoorthy member of this Churche whiche so vniustly report of it so vnchristianly slaunder it and so without groundes and sounde proofes condemne it There is nothyng by it or in it altered which God hath ordeined and established not to be altered Chap. 1. the syxt Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 21 Sect. 5. 6. Pag. 22. Sect. 1. 2. The Scripture hath not prescribed any place or time wherein or when the Lordes Supper should be celebrated neither yet in what manner The Scripture hath not appoynted what tyme or where the congregation shall meete for common Prayer and for the hearing of the word of God neither yet any discipline for the correcting of such as shall contemne the same The Scripture hath not appointed what day in the weeke should be most meete for the Saboth day whither Saterday which is the Iewes Saboth or the day now obserued which was appointed by the Churche The Scripture hath not determined what forme is to be vs d in matrimonie what words what prayers what exhortations The Scripture speaketh not one worde of standing sitting or kneling at the Communion of meeting in Churches fieldes or houses to heare the word of God of preaching in pulpets chaires or otherwise of Baptising in fontes in basons or riuers openly or priuately at home or in the Church euery day in the weeke or on the Sabaoth day only And yet no man as I suppose is so simple to thinke that the Church hath no authoritie to take order in these matters T. C. Pag. 15. Sect. vlt. Pag. 16. Sect. 1. But whyle you goe about to seeme to say muche and rake vp a great number of things you haue made very euill meslyn and you haue put in one things which are not paires nor matches Bycause I will not drawe the Reader willingly into more questions than are alreadie put vp I will not stande to dispute whether the Lordes day which we call Sonday being the day of the Resurrection of our Sauior Christ and so the day wherin the world was renued as the Iewes Sabboth was the day wherin the world was finished and being in all the Churches in the Apostles tymes as it seemeth vsed for the day of the rest and seruing of God ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say that there was no (a) It is lesse true dealing for you to charg men wi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ey haue not affir ed. great indgement to make it as arbitrarie and chaungeable as the houre and the place of prayer But where was pour iudgement when you wrote that the scripture hath appointed no discipline nor correction for such as shal contemne the common prayers and hearing the word of God what Church discipline would you haue other than admonitions reprehensions and if these will not profit excommunication and are they not appointed of our Sauiour Christ (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged Math. 18 There are also ciuill punishments and punishments of the body likewise appointed by the worde of God in diuers places (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged in the. 22. of Exodus He that sacrificeth to other gods not to the Lord alone shal die the death And in y e (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged 19. of Deutronomie Thou shalte turne out the euill out of the middest of thee that the rest may eare and feare and not dare do the lyke The execution of this lawe appeareth in the (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged 15. 2. Chro. by king Aza who made alawe that al those that did not seeke the Lord should be killed And thus you see the ciuill punishment of contemners of the worde and prayers There are other for suche as neglect the worde whiche are according to the quantitie of the faulte so that whether you meane ciuill or Ecciesiasticall correction the scripture (c) Or else you are deceyued hath defined of them bothe Io. Whitgifte Out of all these things whiche I saye the Scripture hath not prescribed or appointed T. C. seeketh quarels
Sacraments administred in priuate families so that they be done according to the order of the Churche and not in the contempt of common and publike assemblies And I thinke that suche noble men and gentlemen as vpon oceasion either of infirmitie of body or of distance of place or some other vrgēt cause haue the word of God preached in their priuate families and the Sacraments ministred according to the order of the Churche are greatly to be commended Neyther doth this open any window to secrete and schismaticall conuenticles suche I meane as seeke corners bycause they wil not kéep the orders lawes of the Church but contemne the same and conspire in some new and erroneous opinions In the which number those be whome I haue truly charged with conuenticles for they despising the order of the Churche haue wickedly separated themselues from the same whose opinions notwithstanding you mainteine although you would séeme to condemne their conuenticles But it may be that you coumpt this time to be a time of persecution and so excuse their doings To be short when I speake either of priuate preaching or of priuate ministring the sacraments I meane it especially in respecte of the place and not in the respect of any schismaticall separation so that hitherto you haue said nothing that impugneth any thing that I haue written Neyther haue I spoken any otherwise in all these things than other learned and godly men haue done as it is to be séene by all theyr seuerall authorities which I haue in their places set downe Chapter 1. the. 9. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Page 22. Sect. 2. I pray you what ment Saint Paule in 1. Co. 14. after he had prescribed certaine orders vnto them to be obserued in the Church thus generally to conclude Omnia decenter ordine fiant Let all things be done decently and in order Doth he not there giue vnto them authoritie to make orders in the Church so that al things be done in order and decently The best interpreters doe vnderstande this as a generall rule giuen vnto the Churche to examine hir traditions and constitutions by And therefore without all doubt their iudgement is that the Church hath authoritie in externall things to make orders and appoint lawes not expressed in the worde of God so that this rule of the Apostle be obserued Io. Whitgifte Here haue you not answered one word to that which I haue alleadged out of the The ground of the assertion vnanswered by T. C. 1. Cor. 14. for the i stifying of my generall assertion in this point nor to the interpretation of it that therefore being graunted the rest must néedes stande in full force that is that the scripture hathe lefte many thinges to the discretion of the Church The opinion of auncient fathers and Councelles of things indifferent Chap. 2. the first Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 22 Sect. 3. 4. NOw if either godly councels or auncient fathers were any thing Auncient fathers of thīgs indifferent at all regarded of these men as they be not suche is their arrogancie this controuersie might soone be decided For the most auncient fathers and best learned as Iustinus Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian Cyprian and other do expressely declare that euen from the Apostles time the Church hath always had authoritie in such matters and hathe obserued diuers orders and ceremonies not once mentioned in the word of God T. C. Page 16. Sect. 3. Page 17. Sect. 1. 2. Here are broughte in Iustin Martyr Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian and Councells as (a) Wilfull ignorance for you know very well that euery one of them greatly fauoureth this cause dumbe persons in the stage only to make a shew and so they go out of the stage without saying any thing And if they had had any thing to say in this cause for these matters in controuersie there is no doubt but M. Doctor would haue made them speake For when he placeth the greatest strēgth of his cause in antiquitie he would not haue passed by Iustin Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian being so auncient and taken Augustine which was a great time after them And if the godly councels could haue helped here it is small wisedome to take Augustine and leaue them For I thinke he might haue learned that amongst the authorities of men the credite of many be better than of one and that this is a generall rule that as the iudgement of some notable personage is looked vnto in a matter that is debated more than theirs of the common sort so the iudgement of a counsell where many learned men be gathered togither carieth more likelihoode of truth with it than the iudgement of one man although it be but a prouinciall counsell much more than if it be generall therfore you do your cause greate iniurie if you could alleadge them and do not This is once to bee obserued of the reader throughout your whole booke that you haue well prouided that you should not be taken in the trip for misaledging the scriptures for that vnlesse it be in (b) Moe scriptures than you and something better applyed one or two points we heare continually in stead of Esay and Ierenty S. Paule and S. Peter and the rest of the And as we say in our tonge ettles amōg roses Prophets and Apostles S. Augustine and S. Ambrose 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Dionisius Areopagita Clement c. And therefore I cannot tell with what face we can call the Papistes from their antiquitie councels and fathers to the triall of the scriptures which in the controuersies which rise amongst ourselues flie so far from them that it wanteth not much that they are not banished of your part from the deciding of all these controuersies And if this be a sufficient proofe of things to say (c) A better proofe than to say I say so as you commonly vse to do such a doctor said so suche a councell decreede so there is almost nothing so true but I can impugne nothing so false but I can make true And well assured I am that by their meanes the principall groundes of our faythe maye be shaken And therefore bycause you haue (d) Petitio principij no proofein the word of God we comfort ourselues assured that for so much as the foundations of the Archbyshop and Lordship of Byshops and of other things whiche are in question be not in heauen that they will fall and come to the grounde from whence they were taken Now it is knowne they are from beneath and of the earth and that they are of men and not of God Io. Whitgifte Here are many words which might well haue bin spared but that you are desirous Sect. 1. to haue your modest speaches knowne to the world In the. 25. page I haue told you where some of these dumbe persons speake their partes but you are blinde when you should sée and deafe when you should heare that which you
And it is absurde to say that the Ministers nowe with the helpe of the Magistate can laye surer foundations of the churche or builde more cunningly or substancially than the Apostles could which were the maister builders of the church of God and as for the consūmation of the body of the church and the beautie of it seyng it consisteth in Iesus Christ which is the head that is alwayes ioyned vnseparably in all times of the crosse and not the crosse wyth his body which is the church I can not see why the churches vnder persecution should not be established hauing both the foundation and the nethermost partes as also the toppe hyghest parte of the churche as well as those which haue a christian Magistrate If in deede the Magistrate whom God haue sanctified to be a ourse vnto his churche were also the head of the same then the churche coulde not be established without the Magistrate but we learne that althoughe the godly (a) The Magistrat is head of the common wealth and but a mēber of the Church by T. C. his iudgement Magistrate be the head of the common wealthe and a great ornament vnto the churche yet he is but a member of the same The churche may be established without the Magistrate and so that all the worlde and all the deuils of hell can not shake it but it can not be in quiet in peace and in outwarde suretie without a godly Magistrate And therefore the churche in that respect and suche lyke prayseth God and prayeth for the Magistrate by the which it enioyeth so singular benefites Therevpon you conclude that the churche was then popular whiche is as vntrue as the former parte For the churche is gouerned wyth that kynde of gouernment which the Philosophers that wryte of the beste common wealthes affirme to be the best For in respecte of Christe the head it is a Monarchie and in respecte of the auncientes and pastoures that gouerne in common and wyth like authoritie amongst them selues it is an Aristocratie or the rule of the beste menne ▪ and in respecte that the people are not secluded but haue theyr interest in Churche matters it is a Democratie or a popular estate An image whereof appeareth also is the pollicie of this realme for as in respecte of the Queene hir Maiestie it is a Monarchie so in respect of the most honourable Councell it is an Aristocratie and hauyng regarde to the Parliament whiche is assembled of all estates it is a Democratie But you shoulde haue shewed howe thys difference of hauing a Christian Magistrate and hauing none oughte to bryng in a diuersitie in the choyse of the Pastor by theyr churche it were not harde if one woulde spende his tyme so vnprofitably to fynde out an hundred differences betweene a persecuted Churche and that whiche is in peace but seeyng you can shewe me no reason why the Churche maye not choose her ministers as well vnder a godlie magistrate as vnder a tyrant I wyll be bold to shewe you howe that if it were lawefull to breake the order of God it were meeter in the tyme of persecution that the election shoulde be in some others discreate and learned persons handes to bee made without the consente of the churche than in that tyme when there is a godlie magistrate and that it is then most conuenient to be chosen by the churche Io. Whitgifte There was then no Churche established in any Ciuill gouernment bycause How the Church was not established in the Apostles time the Magistrates did then persecute and not defende the Churche The Churche in the Apostles tyme was established in doctrine moste perfectly in discipline gouernment and ceremonies as was conuenient for that tyme and as the Church maye be in tyme of persecution but the tyme was not yet come wherof the Prophete Esay 49. sayde Kings shall be thy nursing fathers and Princes shall be thy nursing mothers therfore it was not established in any ciuill gouernment neyther did it so publikcly and openly shewe it selfe The Gospell and the Church was in Queene Maries tyme here in Englande but it was persecuted not established not maynteyned not allowed of nor professed by the publike magistrate and the lawes of the lande and therefore of necessitie a greate difference betwixte the gouernmente of it then and the gouernmente of it nowe the outwarde shewe of it then and the outward shewe of it nowe the placing of Ministers then and the T. C. often offendeth in ignorance of the Eiench ▪ placyng of them nowe My meanyng and my woordes be playne you needed not to haue offended agayne as almoste contynually you doe in the ignorance of the Elench whylest you doo not reason nor answere ad idem If you speake of the Churche as it is a communion and societie of the faithfull and elect onely and of the gouernment thereof as it is onely spirituall then is it moste certaine that the Churche is as thoroughly established as perfectely gouerned as gloriously decked and beautified in the tyme of persecution as it is or can be vnder the ciuill Magistrate But if you speake of the externall societie of the Churche which comprehendeth bothe good and euill and of the outwarde gouernment of it then neyther it is nor can be in suche perfecte state nor so thoroughly established or outwardly adorned in the tyme of the Crosse as it is and may be vnder a Christian Prince The ignorance of thys distinction of the Church and of the gouernment thereof of the whiche I haue spoken more at large in an Tract 2. other place causeth you to fall into so many and so grosse erroures concernyng the same You saye that if the Ciuile Magistrate were the head of the Churche c. Christe The Prince head of the Church onely and properly is the head of the Churche for it is hys body but yet in the respecte of the externall societie of the same and the Supreme authoritie that is gyuen of GOD to the Prince ouer his people in all causes he maye bée also in that respecte called the head of the Churche c. Chrysostom in Epistol ad Philip. Homel 13. gyueth thys name to certaine women Chrysost. of whome he sayeth thus Videntur mibi istae mulieres caput fuisse Ecclesiae quae illic erat These women seeme to mee to haue bin the head of the Churche which was there And therfore a learned mā answering Hosius who reproued Vergerius for mouing y t king Iaco. Andraea ▪ of Polonia to take vopen hym to be the head of that Churche sayeth on thys sorte As the Churche of Christ in earth is but one bodie so hathe it but one head as the Apostle teacheth which is Iesus Christe who is always present with his Churche and gouerneth it with his holie spirite c. but bicause this Church being visible is not onely ruled by the worde but by the sworde of the magistrate also appointed
Minister to be chosen without the consent of the Churche than in a Church béeing in prosperitie And surely it is euen lyke to your reasons in other matters for first that whiche you saye of the Churches rounde aboute for admonishing correcting or excommunicating that Churche that shall choose an vnméete minister is not to bée founde in all the Scripture either in commaundement or example and it is a méere deuise of your owne head Secondly it is moste vnlyke that the Church in the time of persecution should choose an vnméete or a wicked minister bycause those that be persecuted themselues be godly and well disposed and carefull to haue suche a one as they may safely committe themselues vnto For thoughe in the tyme of persecution there maye bée some hypocrites that will for a tyme ioyne themselues with the Godlie yet the moste parte doe of a conscience that whyche they doe else woulde they not endure persecution wherefore if euer the election of theyr minister may safely be committed vnto them it may then so be especially Lastely in the tyme of persecution they haue no Magistrate they be all equall neyther is one bounde to obey another by any ciuill lawe none hathe chiefe and speciall care ouer the rest as Magistrate to compell wherfore it can not be otherwyse then but that suche offices and functions should be chosen by a common consente neyther can there be therein in that tyme the halfe parte of inconuentences that are in the same in tyme of prosperitie as any man of any consideration may euidently perceyue Chap. 6. the seuenth Diuision T. C. Pag. 36. Sect. 2. 3. Nowe I will shewe you * Where find you that I thinke so whiche thinke that the consent of the Churche in their minister can not stande with the time of a christian magistrate that it hath not onely stoode but hath bene confirmed in their tymes and by them In codice Iustiniani it is thus written following the doctrine of the holie Apostles (i) The words of this constitution are craftily suppressed c. we ordeyne that as often as it shall fall out that the ministers place shall be boyd in any citie that voyces be gyuen of the inhabiters of that citie that he of thrce which for their right faith holynesse of life and other good things are most approued should be chosen to the Bishoprike which is the most meete of them Also Carolus Magnus which was the first Germaine a He was Fran corum non Germanorum primus Imperator for Conradus his nephwe Otho did fyrst trāslate the empire from Fraunce to Germanie ▪ as some thynke Emperoure in 63. distinct sacrorum canonum saith being not ignorant of the holy Canons that the holy Church in y e name of God should vse hir honoure the freelyer we assent vnto y e ecclesiasticall order that the Byshops be chosen by election of the Cleargie and people according to the statutes of the canons of that diocesse In the. 63. distinction it appeareth that Ludouicus Carolus his sonne decreed that he shoulde be Byshop of Rome whome all the people of Rome should consent to choose Io. Whitgifte Where do I say that the consent of the Church in the choise of their minister cannot stande with the time of a Christian magistrate I haue said that howsoeuer in the Apostles time that kind of electing ministers was conueniente now in thys state of the Churche it were pernitious and hurtfull whiche to be moste true the differences of the times before by me alleadged do proue The ciuill magistrate may committe this election to such as he liketh best and may vse that maner and kind of choise which he thinketh to be most conuenient for that Church whereof The proofes of T. C. improue his purpose he hath the chiefe care next vnto God And these proofes that you here bring in to iustify your cause in my opinion do quite ouerthrow the same For it appeareth to haue bin in the power of Emperours and ciuill magistrates to appoynte the maner and forme of suche elections why else shoulde they haue néeded to make any lawes or constitutions for that matter It is true that Musculus Lo. com tit de magistra speaking of the ciuill Magistrate sayth Prudenter autem magna c. But he muste wisely and verie Muscul. warilye order the election of ministers seeking nothyng else but that the flock of the Lorde might be prouided for He shall choose not only suche men as are holie but such as are also able to teach He shal flee simonie more than a dog or snake But he shal vse that maner of election which may be most profitable for the Churches And for somuche as hee is not able of himselfe to doe all things which perteine herevnto he shall vse the helpe and aide of faithfull men and of those that feare God vppon whose shoulders he may laye the care or burthen whether they bee within the order of the ministerie of the woorde or of an other profession but notwithstanding in suche sorte that he him selfe doe know them whiche are chosen and if they seeme meete do by his authoritie and power confirme them But to come to your authorities The words that you do alleadge in codice Iustiniani T. C. subtilly concealeth the words of his author that make agaynst hym must somewhere else be sought for I thinke your authoure Illiricus is deceyued in quoting that place for surely I cannot vnderstand that they are to be founde in that booke But from what authoure soeuer they come you haue subtillie left out the words that expound his meaning and make directly against you Wherefore I will recite them worde for word as they are reported in Illiricus the authoure out of whome you haue borowed them Sequentes igitur doctrinam c. Folowing the doctrine of the holy Apostles in that that most pure and vncorrupt Priests ought to be chosen which are appoynted for that cause chiefly that by their prayers they might obtayne the fauoure of the most mercifull God towardes common wealthes we do decree by this present constitution that as often as it shall happen the roome of any priest to be voyde the inhabitants of the same citie shall giue their voyces of three which in true faith holynesse of life and in all other good things are approued and allowed of that of these he whiche shall be moste meete might be chosen Byshop The Emperoure saith that he followeth the doctrine of the Apostles in this that they prescribe what maner of men are to be chosen sci integerrimi incorruptissimi most pure and most vncorrupt not in the maner or kinde of electing as you would séeme to make the Reader beléeue in noting these words only folowing y e doctrine of the holy Apostles and leauing out that which foloweth declareth wherein he meant to folow their doctrine namely de eo quòd debeant eligi integerrimi in
Maxentius and Licinius did then persecute persecution in Constantines time And therefore you see you are greatly deceyued in your accompt Now if it be as lawfull for vs to vse M. Caluins authoritie which both by example and writinges hath always defended our cause as it is for you to wring him and his words to things which he neuer inent and the contrary whereof he continually practised then this authoritie of yours is dashed For M. Caluine saith whereas it is saide in that councell that the election shoulde not be permitted to the people it meaneth nothing else but that they should make no election without hauing Vpon the Acts. 16. some ministers or men of iudgement to direct them in their election and to gather their voyces and prouide that nothing be done tumultuously euen as Paule and Barnabas were chefe in the election of the Churches And euen the same order would we haue kept in elections continually for auoyding of confusion for as we woulde haue the libertie of the Churche preserued whiche Christ hath bought so deerely from all tyrannie So do we agayne condemne and vtterly abhorre the barbarous confusion and disorder Io. Whitgifte Where do those that write the Centuries suspecte that Canon why note you not the place there is not one worde tending to that end in that place where they speake of this Councell Neyther as I thinke are you able to shew any suche thing affirmed by them and it is the first time that euer I either red or heard it doubted whether thys were a Canon of that councell or no. In the. 4. Cent. col 435. I find these words variant ab ac consuetudine mirum qua veritate constitutiones Concilij Laodiceni quae ordinationes iudicio multitudinis fieri probibuerunt The constitutions of the Councel of Laodicea which forbad Cent. 4. the ordeyning of ministers to be done by the iudgement of the multitude do varie from this custome of electing by the people it is maruel by what truth But no mā can hereof gather that they doubt whether this Canon be a bastard or no. Only they doubt whether this decrée was made according to the truth The general Councel at Cōstantinople which is called Synodus 6. did both allow this councell and ratifye it It is not greatly materiall at what time this Councell was holden Neyther dothe it follow that bycause this decrée was now made against such elections of the people therefore the people had before this time in al places interest in electing of ministers for it may be that some claimed this interest and moued the people to contende for it then as you do now and therefore the Synode might vpon that occasiō make this determination as the like might be made at this time in this Churche of Englande against such parishes as take vpon them the election of their Pastors as you before affirmed Page 3. some to do and yet we could not therevpon truly conclude that before the time of this prohibition the election of ministers was either generally or orderly cōmitted to the people in this Church of England I haue not in any place said that this order of choosing the minister by the voyces of the Church was but in the Apostles time and during the time of persecution neither yet that they could clayme it of dutie in either of these times or that it was then generall and in all places for I haue before shewed the contrary And where you thinke that I will not say the Churche was vnder persecution in Constantines The Church in persecution in Constantines time time though it be not materiall yet must I tell you that I thinke it was for euē then Maxentius and Licinius did persecute and continued in persecuting by the space of 13. yeares after Constan. began his reygne and it is saide of Licinius that he killed many thousandes of Christians I haue not at any time wrung M. Caluines words to any other sense than he hymselfe hath written them if it be otherwise make it knewne for I haue delt playnely and set downe his words so haue not you In his Institutions cap. 8. Sect. 63. thus he writeth of this Councell Est quidem illud fateor c. And surely I confesse that it was Caluine of the Councell of Laodicea vpon great reason decreed in the Councell of Laodicea that the election shoulde not be permitted to the multitude for it scarcely at any time happeneth that so many heads shuld with one consente determine any thing And that saying is almost true that the vnstable multitude is deuided into contrary factions c. Then doth he tell what order was obserued in elections firste the Cleargy only did choose then did they offer him whome they had chosen to the magistrate or to the Senate and chiefe rulers who after deliberation did confirme the election if they liked of it if not then did they choose another whome they thought to be more méete In the ende the matter was propounded to the multitude rather to know their desire and require their testimonie than to gyue them any interest either of choosing or refusing this is the summe of Caluines meaning and this he saith was the meaning of that Councell which I say is in ffect to take away the election from the people Your note in the margent must be corrected for Caluine hath no suche thing vpon the. 16. of the Acts but the like he hath vpō the. 14. howbeit the words of the Councel be playne quòd non sit permittendum turbis electiones eorum facere qui sunt ad sacer dotium prouebendi Concil Laodicen Can. 13. That it ought not to be permitted vnto the multitude to make elections of them which should be preferred to the ministerie And there can be no doubt of the meaning of the Councell bycause it appeareth in the. 12. Canon that they would haue Byshops preferred to ecclesiasticall dignitie by the iudgement of the Metropolitane and other Can. 12. Byshops Libertie and tyrannie be too common in your mouth It is no tyranny to restraine the people from that libertie that is hurtfull to themselues and must of necessitie ingender contentions tumults and confusion Chap. 6. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Page 37. Sect. 3. But if Councels be of so great authoritie to decide this controuersie thē the most famous Councell of Nice wil strike a great stroke with you which in an Epistl that it writeth vnto the Church of Egipt as Theodoret maketh mention speaketh thus It is meete that (a) This is 〈◊〉 of the Clearg not of the people you should haue power both to choose any man and to giue their names which are worthy to be amongst the Cleargy and to do all things absolutely according to the law and decrees of the Church and if it happen any to dye in the Church then that those which were last taken to be promoted to the honoure of him that is
seuenth bookes of Eusebius where (b) An vntruth for there no such thing to be found in these bookes of ▪ usebius both the formes of the elections in those times are described and where besides that the customes of the peoples choyse is set foorth there are examples of the election of the people and Cleargie which were confirmed by the (c) This is vntrue for Eusebi ▪ us maketh not mention of confirmation of Elections by any Christian magistrate nor of any Byshop of Constantinople ▪ Christian magistrate namely in the Byshop of Constantinople And these may suffice for the other that haue not that commoditie of bookes nor habilitie nor skill to reade them being in a straunge tongue to know that besides the institution of God in his worde this manner of electing did continue so long as there was any sight of the knowledge of God in the Churche of God Io. Whitgifte Illiricus his treatise that you speake of doth nothing preiudice the cause that I haue in hand touching the authorities there alleadged for the question is not whether it hath bin so or no but whether it be conuenient and profitable for the Church to haue it so now The reasons that Illiricus vseth beside his authorities are of no great force to proue either necessitie or conueniencie of such elections in this Church as the state is now You do well to confesse the help that you had by Illiricus for it could not haue bin The reply of T. C. consisteth of other mens collections vnespyed séeing you haue almost verbatìm drawen all the authorities and reasons that you vse in this cause out of him And truly I maruell with what face you can so opprobriously obiect vnto me other mens collections and lacke of reading the ancient writers when as it is euident that your whole booke consisteth of other mens notes and collections and that you your selfe haue scarce read any one of the Authours that you haue alledged 18. authorities at the least you haue borrowed of Illiricus in this cause besides certayne other reasons You referre the reader to the. 6. 7. booke of Eusebius where you say both the formes of elections in those tunes are described and the customes of the peoples choise set foorth and diuers examples of the elections of the people and Cleargie c. But the reader shoulde haue bene something beholding to you if you had named the Chapters as well as you haue done the bookes Howebeit you do very politikely to referre youre readers to the whole bookes which you are sure the most of them cannot and of those that can many will T. C. sendeth his reader to Eusebius for that which he shall not find in him Euse. lib. 6. cap. 10. not peruse but you haue not dealt faithfully for it is not to be founde in any parte of these two bookes where the customes of the peoples choyse is set foorthe or any example of the people and Cleargies election confirmed by the Christian Magistrate Nor yet any example of any Byshop of Constantinople The contrary rather may be collected in sundrye places In the sixte Booke Eusebius declareth that in the absence of Narcissus bycause it was not knowne where he was The gouernoures of the Churches adioyning ordeyne another Byshop And after Narcissus retourne bycause he was aged the story saith dictum Alexandrum alterius paroeciae c. That the ordinance of God called the said Alexander being Byshop of another parish to vndertake that charge with Narcissus according to a vision which was in the night reuealed vnto him And in y e next chapter he sheweth how that those of Hierusalem receyued the said Byshop courteously and would not suffer him to retourne to the place where he was Byshop before they being admonished by a vision in the night which signifyed vnto them that they should go out of the citie gates and receiue their Bishop appoynted vnto them by God which thing they also did by the consent vicinorum Episcoporum of the Byshops adioyning What for me or manner of electing can you gather of this place except you will admitte visions and call them from one Byshopricke to another to helpe some that is growen in age Neyther is here any mention made of the electiō of the people for this that he saith Hierosolomitani went out c. it may rather be vnderstanded of the ministers and deacons of Hierusalem than of the people In the. 7. booke cap. 30. it appeareth that the ministers and Pastors had then authorite to choose Byshops Only in the. 6. booke ther is one example that may séeme something to make for your purpose vntill it be well considered It is of one Fabianus who was chosen Byshop of Rome as it is there reported in this manner cum fratres omnes Lib. 6. cap. 29. ad ordinandum futurum Episcopum in ecclesia congregati essent c. The reporte goeth when as all the brethren were assembled togyther in the Church to choose him which should be Byshop and many of them determined of diuers worthy and notable men Fabianus hymselfe being present with the rest and no man minding to choose him that a doue falling from aboue like as the holy ghost discended vpon our sauioure in likenesse of a doue did lighte vpon his head and so the whole people being with one spirite much moued did togyther with great ioy and with one consent proclayme him woorthy to be Byshop and immediatly tooke him and placed him in the Byshops seate Héere we may learne that Fabianus was miraculously chosen to his Bishopricke and that the people moued with this miracle did burst out into commendation of him and thought him worthy to be Bishop dothe it therefore follow that they elected him for it may be doubted whether those brethren that came togyther to ordeyne the Byshop were of the Cleargy or of the people It is not denied but at this time the people did sometimes and in some places gyue their consents in the electing of their Byshop yet doth not this example proue it béeing as it may appeare extraordinarie neither is there in these two bookes any forme of such elections described nor any customes of the peoples choice set foorth much lesse any examples of the elections of the people and cleargie which were confirmed by the Christian Magistrate as you affirme And surely I maruell what you meane to speake of any suche confirmation by the Christian magistrate séeing it is manifest that as yet there was no Christian Magistrate mentioned by Eusebius except only one Philip Emperoure of Rome of whome he speaketh very little and maketh no mention of any elections made in his time so farre off is he from expressing examples of any confirmation of such electiōs by any christiā magistrate Namely you say in the Byshop of Cōstātinople A grosse oueright of T. C. yet ther is no such example in either of those bookes no not so
flocke than at other places I answere that the Euangelists and Apostles did carrie longer in one place than in another and taught some congregations yeares whē they did not othersome moneths And therfore they say nothing which alleadge for the nonresidence of Pastors that S. Paule called Timothie and Titus from Ephesus and Crete for first they were Euangelists and no Pastors then they went not of their owne heads but called of the Apostle which was a chiefe gouernoure of the Church And thirdly they went not but hauing other sufficient put in their place as it appeareth in their seuerell epistles so that if that place make any thing it maketh not to proue the non residencie but rather whether a minister may be translated from one Church to another Io. Whitgifte Your reader if he iudge indifferently cannot but acknowledge this that you so cōfidently speake of proores to be but a vaine bragge and nothing so There is no man that denieth but that a Pastor ought so to attend vpō his slocke How a Pastor ought to be rendent as he may be well able to do his duetie towards the same and with a good conscience answer his doings before the chiefe Pastor to whome he shall giue his accompte In the meane time if he be godly if he preach among them as often as he is perswaded to be conuenient if he haue a care ouer them that they be not destitute of that whiche is necessarie if he haue such as are honest learned and diligent to supply his absence he may be bolde to say to his vnlawfull iudges tu quis es qui iudicas alienum seruum proprio Rom. 14. domino stat aut cadit VVho art thou which condemnest another mans seruant he standeth or falleth to his owne Master ▪ Whether a Pastor hauing a flocke may also preach out of his owne charge is another question And although it be by you denyed yet bycause your words without proofe weigh not much I will for the auoiding of confusion speake nothing thereof in this place but this only that as the opinion is strange so is it most vntrue and not to be iustifyed eyther by Scripture aunciente fathers or reasons But oh T C. who séeth not the mark you shoote at who perceyueth not how you Why T. C. slideth from the matter to the person slide from the matter to the person To what ende do you here recite a mastership of a colledge a Deanrie ▪ a Prebend but that your meaning is to note some one particular man whome bycause he hath withstoode your erroneous and contentious doctrine hath not exalted you as it is wel knowne you haue desired hath executed those lawes vpon you whiche for the auoyding of manifest and wilfull periurie you oughte to The oth of the fellowes of Tri. Col. in Cam. haue executed of your selfe you séeke by all meanes possible to deface Is this conscience ▪ Is this praebe e te beneuolum magistro non solùm dum in eo vixeris sed etiam postea pro virill c. The Lord forgiue you and giue you grace to know your selfe If he that hath this mastership Deanry Prebend benefice neglect his duetie in any one of them if he do not that that both Gods lawes and mans lawes require of him if be be a loyterer if he séeke his ease if he be not able to giue an accompt of his doings when he shall therevnto be called then let him susteyne both the shame and the blame also The Pastor is not so tyed to any place that he may not from the same be bodily The Pastor may be absent vpon occasion absent vpon occastō as I am ready to proue by sufficient both reason and authoritie when I shall be vrged there vnto The examples of the Euangelists and of the Apostles do verifie the same for they fully instructed the churches wherein they preached in all things necessary to saluation though they did not cōtinually remayne with them but now and then visit them And therefore the Pastors may so do in like manner Touching Timothie and Titus whome you so oft without any kind of proofe denie Timothie being a Pastor was absent frō Ephesus to be Pastors I haue spoken else where at large notwithstanding bycause your too too bolde asseuerations may appeare what they are I will in a few words euen in this place declare bothe that Timothie and Titus were Pastors and that their examples do euidently proue that a Pastor may be vpon occasions absent from hys flocke And for this time I will be content with that only that M. Caluine writeth touching In y e treatise of Archbyshops c. the same matter referring the reader for further proofe to that that I haue in more ample manner written of the same M. Caluine 1. Ti. 1. doth call Timothie Pastor of the Church of Ephesus And in the. 1. Ti. 4. expounding these words ne donum quod Tract 8. Caluine in te est c. he saith that the holy ghost had by oracle appointed Timothie to be receyued into the order of Pastors And. 2. Ti. 4. that he did excell vulgare and common Pastors meaning that he was an excellent Pastor endued with more singular and notable gifts and of greater authoritie than the common sort of Pastors be And in the same Chapter speaking of Paules sending for Timothie from Ephesus to Rome he sayth that there was no small cause why Paule sent for Timothie from that Churche whiche he ruled and gouerned and that so farre off heereby we may gather saith he how profitable conference is with such men for it might be profitable to all Churches whiche Timothie might learne in a small time so that the absence of halfe a yeare or of one whole yeare is nothing in comparison of the commoditie that commeth thereby Whereby it is manifest that Caluine both tooke him to be a Pastor and also excuseth his absence So that the example of Timothie maketh much for the pnrpose The like may be said of Titus and of sundry other in the scriptures Now if the Apostle being a chiefe gouernoure of the Church might call Timothie and Titus so farre from their cures and that for no great nor yet common matters of the Churche but for his owne priuate businesse as it appeareth 2. Tim. 4. then I trust you will also thinke it lawfull that suche as be rulers and gouernours of the Church may do the like There is no man that writeth so exactly of Non residence but Lawfull causes of the pastors absence he confesseth certaine necessary causes of absence as if it be for the commoditie of the Church whereof he is Pastor or for the commoditie of the whole church of that kingdome or for the commoditie of other particular churches in the same or for necessitie or vpon commaundement of higher authoritie in all these and such like cases the absence of a Pastor is lawfull and
they signified but now they are tokens of the Ministers of the Gospell which are good and therfore they are good the signes of good The reason is M. Bucers I am not ashamed of my author and it is stronger than you can ouerthrowe For let me heare howe you will answere this argument whatsoeuer signifieth and noteth that which is good is a signe of good but this apparell signifieth that which is good Ergo it is a signe of good The Maior is euident The Minor is thus proued The ministerie of the Gospell is good but this apparel is a signe of the ministerie of the Gospell Ergo it is a signe of good All the Logike you haue can not answere this argument except you will denie the apparell to be the signe of the ministerie of the Gospel which were to denie y t which is subiect to the senses the other examples that I haue vsed doth make this matter more manifest I referre it to the Reader to iudge how fitly you haue answered them Whether they be good signes or no is not nowe the question but whether they be signes of good for that the Admonition denieth If you can conclude that they be euill bicause they be signes of euill why may not I likewise say that they be good bicause they be signes of good We commonly call that a good signe which is a signe of good neyther can you place this reason in any fallacian it is a signe of good Ergo it is a good signe for it is called a good signe in this respect onely that it signifieth that which is good Those names in respect of those whom they signified were good in the respect of the Externall things may be both good and euill in diuers respects The diuers 〈◊〉 vsed b T. C. in answering Idols to whome they properly belonged they were euill for such externall things in diuers respects may be both good euill The golden calfe was an Idoll made to be worshipped no signe of the true God and therfore vndiscretly here brought in Wheresoeuer I haue before alleaged these things you speake of yet be they answered neither here nor there this the Reader may note if he list that whersoeuer you cannot answere there either you frumpe girde after your maner or you cauill and confute your owne imagination or closely passe the matter ouer in silence or poste it ouer to some other place where you speake nothing of it Chap. 7. the tenth Diuision Admonition They worke discorde they hinder the preaching of the Gospell Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 241. Sect. 2. This is an argumente à non causa ad causam it is not the apparell that Non causa procausa worketh discorde or hindereth the preaching of the Gospell no no more than it is the worde of God that engendreth heresies or wyne that maketh drunke or the sworde that murthereth or the law that worketh iniurie c. But it is the sinister affection the rebellious nature the contentious minde of man For who began this contention or when was it begon Truely if the lawe for apparell were vtterly abrogated yet would not your contentiō cease nay it would burst out muche more vehemently and in farre greater matters as this your Admonition declareth And therefore I thinke rather that the lawe for apparell will stay further contentions especially if it be duely executed T. C. Pag. 60. Sect. 1. You say the cause of disorder is not in the apparell but in the mindes of men You meane I am sure those that refuse the apparell but if you make them authors of discorde bycause they consente not wyth you in wearing do you not see it is (*) It is as sone sayd but not so truely bycause the one ret yneth order and the other breaketh it assone sayd that you are the causers of discord bycause you doe not consent with those which weare not For as there should be vnitie in that point if all did weare that apparell so shoulde there be if all did weare none of it It is a very vnequall comparison that you compare the vse of this apparell with the vse of wyne and of a sworde which are profitable and necessarie but it is more intollerable that you match it with the worde of God I coulde throwe it as farre downe as you li te it vp but I will not doe so This onely I wyll say if there were no harme in it and that it were also profitable yet forasmuch as it is not commaūded of God expressely but a thing as you say indifferent and notwithstanding is cause of so manie incommodities and so abused as I haue before declared it ought to be sufficient reason to abolishe them seing that the brasen serpent which was instituted of the Lorde himselfe and conteyned a profitable remembrance of the wonderfull benefite of God towardes his people was beaten to pouder when as it beganne to be an occasion of falling vnto the children of Israell and seeing that S. Paule after the loue feastes which were kepte at the administration of the Lordes 1. Cor. 11. Supper and were meanes to nourish loue amongst the Churches were abused and drawne to another vse than they were first ordeyned did vtterly take them away and commaunde that they should not be vsed any more Io. Whitgifte I may answere you almost in the selfe same wordes and maner that M. Zuinglius answered one Balthazar an Anabaptist who charged him then as you charge vs now Zuinglius ad Balt. in this place consider saith he who be the authors and causes of dissention whether we that attempt nothing of our owne priuate authoritie but haue submitted our selues to the iudgement of the Church and of those that be gouernours of the same or rather you who so arrogantly without any such authoritie doe what you list speake what you list allow and condemne at your pleasure ▪ But for further tryall hereof I referre you to such notes as I haue collected out of Zuinglius and others and placed in the second edition of my Pag. 19. c. Answere to the Admonition Our consenting is according to our duetie required of vs by the worde of God towards such as be in authoritie your dissenting is contrarie to your dutie of obedience in such cases inioyned vnto you by the word of God If all refused the apparell wyth you yet would you not be quiet for you make this the least cause of your schisme I do not compare this apparell with the word of God but by these examples I shew the vnaptnesse of such arguments as be à non causa ad causam You haue throwne it downe as low as you can and if you could cast it lower your will is good therfore to say you coulde do it and wil not is as great an offence as was the midwiues lying to Pharao I haue shewed in my answere that as the case now standeth it is rather commodious
that all other be vnder him haue their authoritie from him But this name may also aptly be giuen vnto 〈◊〉 that haue the ouersight of other bishops in the externall gouernment of the Churche in the which as I haue sayd Magistrates be called Gods Christ is the only head of the Church if by the head you vnderstande that which giueth How Christ is the onely head of the churche the bodie lyfe sense and motion For Christ only by his spirite doth giue life and nutriment to his bodie He only doth poure spirituall blessings into it and doth inwardly direct and gouerne it Likewise he is only the head of the whole Church for that title can not agree to any other But if by the head you vnderstande an xternall ruler or gouernour of any particular nation or Church in which signification head is vsually taken then I doe not perceiue why the Magistrate maye not How the ma gistrat 〈◊〉 be called 〈◊〉 of the church as well be called the head of the Churche that is the chiefe gouernour of it in the externall policie as he is called the head of the people and of the common weal h. And as it is no absurditie to say that the ciuill magistrate is heade of the common wealth next and immediatly vnder God for it is moste true so is it none to say that vnder God also he is head of the Churche that is chiefe gouernour as I haue before sayde Constantine in an Epistle that he writeth to the people of Alexandria Bishops called heades of churches and yet y e Popes supremacie i vsurped as it is reported by Athanasius Apol. 2. calleth Bishoppes Ecclesiarum capita the heades of their Churches And yet is the Popes Supremacie vsurp d bothe bicause it taketh from Magistrates that whiche is due vnto them and also vsurpeth the authoritie of Chryste in remittyng and retaynyng synnes in making Lawes contrarye to Gods Lawes whyche he sayeth be necessarie to Saluation in makyng hys Supremacie a matter of Saluation and in chalengyng authoritie ouer the whole Churche of Christ and an hundreth suche lyke presumptions The Archbishop being both vnder God and his Prince hath his name onely in respecte of his authoritie in certaine causes aboue other Bishops and that but in one prouince or kingdome only neyther can eyther the name or vse of it as it is in this Church offende any but such as be offended with all superiors and think that none ought to be better than themselues Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 1. 2. In the primitiue church the * name of a Pope was honest was al one with the name of a good Tertull. lib. de 〈◊〉 Cyp. li. 27. Hierome in his epistles to Augustine pastor but nowe by the ambition of the man of Rome it is so defyled that euery good man shaketh at the very mention of it The name of a tyrant was fyrst honorable and the same with a king and yet through crueltie and vniust rule of certaine it is become nowe so hatefull that no vpright and iust dealing Prince none that gouerneth with equitie and to the commoditie of his subiectes woulde beare to be called tyranne wherby it may appeare that it is not for nought that we doe stande of these names Io. Whitgifte Papa signifieth a father and was in tymes paste common to all Bishops but nowe it is proper to the bishop of Rome and therefore hated for his sake whome it nowe signifieth So tyrannus sometyme signified a king generally no e it signinifyeth A lawfull name maye remaine though it hath bene abused a cruell king and a bloudie gouernoure and therefore also abhorred But an Archbishop though the persons at sometime haue degenerated yet the name hath continued in the same signification and therfore the reasen is nothing lyke except you wil also for the lyke cause cōdemne the name of a Bishop or of a king for there haue bene many euill men called by the name of bishops and many tyrants by the name of kings and yet the names neuer the worsse If names shoulde be chaunged so ofte as they be abused some had nede to haue an office only to inuent new names There was a certaine kinde of heretikes that called themselues Apostolike and yet the name of an Apostle is neuer the worse A lawfull name of a lawfull office may remaine together with the office howesoeuer before tyme it hath bin abused Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 2. Nowe if the names ought to be odious being both horribly abused and also * Petitio principii for you haue not yet proued this forbidden by our Sauior Christ the things themselues must be in greater hatred the vnlawfulnesse whereof may thus appeare Io. Whitgifte This is a manifest petition of the principle and in no pointe as yet proued But let vs heare the reasons why the office should be condemned Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 62. Sect. 3. First of all the ministerie is by the word of God and heauenly and not left to the wil of men to Scriptures willingly falsified ▪ to make them serue his turne deuise at their pleasure as appereth by that whych is noted of S. Iohn where the * The Phariseys made false arguments and so do you in fo owing them Phariseys cō ming to S. Iohn Baptist after he had denyed to be eyther Chryst or Elias or an other prophet * The Phariseys made false arguments and so do you in fo owing them conclude if thou be neither Christ nor Elias nor of y e Prophets why baptizest thou whych had ben no good argument if S. Iohn might haue ben of some other function thā of those which were ordinarie in the churche and instituted of God And therfore S. Iohn to establish his singular and extraordinarie function alledgeth the worde of God whereby appeareth that as it was not lawfull to bring in any strange doctrine so it was not lawfull to teach the true doctrine vnder the name of any other function than was instituted by God Io. Whitgifte This is your fyrst argument the Phariseys comming to S. Iohn Baptist after he had denyed to be eyther Christ or Elias or an other Prophet conclude if thou be neyther Chryste nor Elias nor of the Prophets why baptizest thou Ergo there may be no Archbishops which is your meaning But least you shoulde thinke that I cauill I will vse your owne conclusion which is this Ergo there was no other ordinarie function in the Churche This argument hath neyther head nor foote forme nor matter is this your exquisitenesse The disordered argument of y e Replier in Logike First your antecedent is vntrue and builded vpon the false allegation of the Scripture For the Phariseys doe not say vnto him If thou bee neyther Christ nor Elias nor of the Prophets but these be the wordes of the text If thou bee not
the first in the defense of the marriage of Priests sayth that Dionisius Areopagi a S. Paules scholler was by S. Paule made Archbishop of Athens T. C. Pag. 68. Sect. vlt. The times wherein Uolusianus liued declare sufficiently how littell credite is to be giuen to his testimonie which were when the masse had place if not so wicked as it was after yet notwithstanding farre differing from the simplicitie of the supper which was left by our Sauiour Christ. And Eusebius is of more credite in this than Uolusianus which in the thirde booke and fourth chapter in the fourth booke and thre twentie chapter sayth of the report of Dionysius bishop of orinth That S. Paule ade Dionysius Arcopagita (*) A notable 〈◊〉 byshop of Athens he sayth not Archbis op but Bishop although he spake twi e of it in the preface before his workes it is sayd that after his conuersion he went to Rome to Clement and was sent with others of Clement into the weste partes and that he came to Paris and was there executed whether soeuer of these opinions is true that falleth which Uolusianus affirmeth And if eyther Uolus anus or you will haue vs beleeue that Dionysius Areopagita was Archbyshop of Athens you must shewe some better authoritie than Eusebius or Dionysius byshop of orinth and then your cause shall haue at the least some more colour of truth Io. Whitgifte Thus indéede may you easily wype away all authoritie of Histories and Fathers But this shifte will not serue your turne with wyse and learned men Uolusianus was very well learned and a very godly Bishop in his tyme neyther is it to be thoughte that he woulde wryte any thing in suche a matter whiche he had not certaynely learned of worthy wryters Your reason broughte out of Eusebius to proue the contrarie fayleth in two respectes First bicause it is negatiue from authoritie and that of man For thus you conclude Eusebius did not call him Archbishop Ergo he was no Archebishop whiche kinde of argument is neuer good in any respecte when it is taken from the authoritie of man Secondly your argument fayleth bicause Histories be not so curious in cal ing men by their seuerall titles They thinke it sufficient if they vse the common and moste vsuall name eu n as it is the common vse amongest vs to call the Archbishops of Canterbury and Yorke oftener by the names of Bishops of Canterbury and Yorke than by the names of Archbishops So that in déede your argument béeing denied you are not able by any sounde reason to confirme it If Eusebius or Dionisius had denied him to be an Archbishop your argument had bin good Chap. 2. the. 10. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 65. Sect. 3. Erasmus in his argument of the Epistle to Titus saythe that Paule made Titus Archebishop of Creta but Antichrist was not in Paules time Ergo the name of an Archbishop was not inuented by Antichrist T. C. Pag. 69. Sect. 1. Erasmus followeth which sayth Titus was Archbishop of Crete whom I could answere with his owne words For I am sure he will graunt me that Titus and Timothie had one office the one in Ephesus y e other in Crete but it appeareth by Erasmus his own words that Timothie was but a Bishop of Ephesus therfore Titus was but Bishop of Crete (a) A slender proofe For Eras us in his argument vpon the first Epistle of Timothie sayth that S. Paule did informe Timothie of the office of a Bishop and of the discipline of the Churche If eyther he had bin an archebishop or an Archbishop had bin so necessarie as it is made he woulde haue instructed him in that also Io. Whitgifte This maketh wholly agaynst your selfe for héereby it appeareth that the wryters vse not any greate curiositie in obseruing proper titles but they thinke it sufficient if that name of office be vsed that comprehendeth all Where dothe Erasmus saye that Timothie was but a Bishop Will you not learne to deale playnely But let vs heare your argument Erasmus sayth that S. Paule dyd informe Timothie of the office of a Bishop and of the discipline of the Churche Ergo Erasmus sayth that Timothie was no Archbishop Undoubtedly you had néede beare with other mens vnskilfulnesse in Logike if you vse suche reasons in good earnest This argument also is negatiue ab bumana authoritate Whatsoeuer is necessarie for a Bishop is necessarie for The differēce betwixte an Archbishop a Bishop an Archebishop and the office of a Bishop is the office of an Archebishop There is no difference of Bishop and Archebishop but onely this that the Archebishop hathe authoritie ouer other Bishops to call them togither when occasion serueth to sée that they walke according to the lawes and rules prescribed to kéepe vnitie and concorde in the Churche and suche lyke There is no difference quantum ad ministerium in respecte of their ministerie and function but onely quoad politiam ordinem in respect of pollicie and order as I haue sayde before Chap. 2. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 69. Sect. 2. And I pray you tell me whether Erasmus or the greeke Scoliaste be more to be beleeued in this poynt out of whome is taken that which is in the latter ende of the Epistles to Timothie and Titus where they bothe are called the first elected Bishops that euer were eyther of Ephesus or Creta for my parte I thinke they were neyther Bishops nor Archbishops but (*) This is often promised but neuer per ormed Euangelists as shall appeare afterwards But it may be sufficient to haue set agaynst Erasmus authoritie the authoritie of the Scholiast And heere if you will cauill and say that the Scholiast which sayth he was Bishop denieth not but that he also was an Archbishop bicause an Archbishop is a Bishop it may be answered easily that the Scholiast did not speake nor write so vnproperly as to cal them by the generall name of Bishop whome he might as easily haue called if the truthe woulde haue let him by a more proper and particular name of Archbishop And further in (a) This diuision is not so strange as you make it this diuision of the ministers the Archbishop and the Bishop are members of one diuision and therefore one of them can not be affirmed and sayde of an other for that were contrarie to the nature of a true diuision Io. Whitgifte I tell you that Erasmus and the grecke Scholiaste doe very well agrée and the one dothe expounde the other I tell you also that your negatiue argumentes are not worthe a rushe vse them as ofte as you liste What you thinke of Thimothie or Titus béeing Archebishops or Bishops is not materiall but of what force your reasons are shall be considered when you vtter them If Erasmus and the Gréeke Scholiaste were of diuers iudgements in this poynte as they be not yet were it an vnlearned answere to set the
not saye that he ordeyned Bishops in euery Churche for his wordes be as I haue reported them But if he had so sayde it had not made any thing to your purpose but agaynst you For he appoynted them not all the Apostles nor the people and he gouerned and directed them as their Archbishop Chap. 2. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 1. 2. These two Anacletus and Anicetus you say are (*) I say not only suspected but that they are not without iuste cause suspected suspected why do you say suspected when as they haue bin conuinced and condemned and stande vpon the pillorie with the cause of forgerie written in great letters that he whiche runneth maye reade Some of the Papistes them selues haue suspected them but those whiche maynteyne the truthe haue condemned them as full of poperie full of blasphemie and as those in whome was the very spirite of contradiction to the Apostles and their doctrine And doe you marke what you saye when you saye that these are but suspected Thus muche you say that it is suspected or in doubte whether the whole body of Poperie and Antichristianitie were in the Apostles time or soone after or no. For Clement was in the Apostles time and their scholer ▪ and so you leaue it in doubte whether the Apostles appoynted and were the authors of poperie or no. I thinke if euer you had read the Epistles you would neuer haue cited their authorities nor haue spoken so fauourably of them as you doe Io. Whitgifte I say that they are not without iust cause suspected whiche you haue left out and therefore it appeareth that you haue layde aside sinceritie I haue alleadged them with as little credite vnto them as eyther master Caluine or any other dothe You your selfe haue sundrie times in this Replie vsed as I haue sayde as forged authors as these be with lesse defacing of them Turpe est doctori c. I can shew good proofe that I haue read their Epistles but I am not disposed eyther to boast of my own reading or to deface other mens I leaue that to you Chap. 2. the. 17. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 66. Lin. 5. Sect. 1. 2. 3. But that notable and famous Councell of Nice muste be and is of all wyse and learned men nexte vnto the scriptures themselues reuerenced esteemed and imbraced That Councell celebrated Anno Domini 330. when as the Bishops of Rome were as yet learned Concil Nice and godly men doth not onely allow of the name but also of the office of Metropolitane Archbishop Archdeacon c. In the sixte Canon of that Councell it is thus written This Metropolitane Councell dothe determine him to be no Bishop vvhich is made vvithout the consent Metropolitani Episcopi of the Metropolitane In the. 13. Canon mention is made of a Patriarche and of an Archdeacon Archedeacon diuers times and his office there in diuers poyntes declared as it is also in the seuenth Canon of the same Councel In the. 25. Canon is named bothe Patriarche and Archebishop and Patriarke declared what authoritie they had in their Prouinces and in admitting of Bishops So is it likewise in the. 26. and. 27. Canons of the same Councell T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 3. You come after to the Councel of Nice wherin I wil not sticke with you that you say it was holden the. 330. yere of the Lord when it may appeare by Eusebius his computation that it was holden Anno Domini 320. Io. Whitgifte I know that there is some varietie among the writers for the time of this Councell Uar tie concerning the time of y e Nicen Councell Musculus in his common places sayth that it was celebrated Anno Domini 313 the writers of the Magd. Historie centu 4. cap. 9. affirme as they say out of Eusebius that it was Anno Dom. 320. Master Foxe Tom. 1. fol. 12 thinketh that it was Anno Dom. 340. and so dothe Illyricus him selfe in his defense of the Magd. Historie thoughe he séeme to be of a contrarie iudgement in the Historie it selfe Pantaleon in his Cronographie placeth it Anno Do. 330. Some there be that say it was 324. c. So that to differ in the yere is no suche matter as deserueth any suche nippe But if all circumstances be well considered It will fall oute that Eusebius himselfe confirmeth that which I haue set downe touching the time of that Councell For Constantine began his raigne according to Eusebius his Cronicle Anno. 311. and this is noted also Cent. 4. fol. 62. But the Nicene Councell according to the sayde Centurie fol. 617. was holden Anno. 17. Constantini So that it must néedes be by their owne collection Anno. 328. or very neare But if we admitte Eusebius Cronicle for the beginning of Constantines raigne videlicet Anno. 311. it will fall out by Eusebius himselfe vpon the time which I haue appointed for Lib. 4. de vita Constantini he sayth that the Nicene Councell was holden Anno vicesimo imperij Const. So that it must néedes be Anno. 330. or in the beginning 331. at the vttermost but vnder it cannot be Chap. 2. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 3. And here you take so great a leape that it is enough to breake the Archbyshops necke to skippe at once 300. yeares without anye testimonye of anye eyther father or storie of faythe and credite which maketh once mention of an Archbyshop Io. Whitgifte This leape shall not hurt him one whit For if there were no other testimonie but Archbyshops Metropolitanes long before the Nicene Councel Concil Niceni Can. 6. that Councell it were of sufficient credite and habilitie both to saue his necke and his body from all kinde of harme For séeing it is thus written in the sixth Canon of that Councell Antiqua consuetudo seruetur per Aegyptū Libyam Pentapolim vt Alexandrinus Episcopus horum omnium habeat potestatem quia vrbis Romae Episcopo parilis mos. est c. Let the auncient custome be kepte throughout Aegipt Libia and Pentapolis that the Byshop of Alexādria haue the gouernmēt of all these for the Byshop of the citie of Rome hath the same order Lykewise in Antioche and other Prouinces let euery Churche reteine hir priuileges But this is generally plaine that if any be made Byshop without the consent of his Metropolitane the great Synod hath decreed that he ought to be no Byshop And in the seuenth Canon Quia consuetudo obtinuit antiqua traditio vt Aeliae Can. 7. Episcopus honoretur habeat honoris consequentiam salua metropolis dignitate For as muche as custome auncient tradition hath bene such that the Byshop of Ierusalem be honoured let him haue honour accordingly not impairing the dignitie of the Metropolitane citie It is plaine that Archbyshops and their office were long before the Councell of Nice for else why should the Canon say Let the olde custome
the vnitie of the Church is conserued not by hauing one Bishop ouer all but by the agreement of the Bishops one with another For so he writeth that the church is knit and coupled togither as it were with the giue of the Bishops consenting one with an other And as for the compounding of controuersies it is manyfest that it was not done by one Byshop in a prouince but those byshops whych were neere the place where the schisme or heresie sprang For speaking of the appeasing of controuersies schismes and shewing how dyuers Bishops Li. 1. epi. 4 were drawen into the heresy of Nouatus he sayth that the vertue and strength of the Christians was not so decayed or anguished but that there was a portion of Priests which did not giue place vnto those rumes and shipwrackes of fayth And in another place he sayth therfore most deare brother the plentyfull body or company Li. 3. epi. 1 of the pr ests are as it were with the g ue of mutuall concorde and bande of vnitie ioyned togither that if any of our company be author of an heresy and goe about to destroy and rent the flocke of Christ the rest should helpe and as profitable and mercyfull shepheards gather togither the sheepe of the Lorde Whereby it is many fest that the appeasing and composing of controuersies and heresies was not then thought to be most fitte to be in one bishops hande but in as many as coulde conuemently assemble togither according to the daunger of the heresie which sprang or depe roote which it had taken or was like to take Io. Whitgifte The Bishops agrée not one whit the worse when they haue a superior by whom they may be called togither and put in minde of their office and duetie Neyther doth Cyprian deny this when he affirmeth the other For thoughe the chiefe cause of vnitie is the consente and agreement of the Bishops one with another yet to haue one that shall haue the chiefe care thereof must néedes be a great helpe thervnto euen as it is in other societies For if the Bishops were deuided among themselues at variance and had no superiour who should compounde the controuersies Our Archbishops doe not take vpon them neyther can they to decide any controuersie Howe farre our Archbishops deale in controuersies in doctrine and religion of their owne authoritie but therein doe they deale eyther according to the lawes of the Churche prouided for that purpose or else expecte a newe Parliament or Synode Neyther doth any Bishop in his Dioces otherwise meddle in suche matters than by the common consent of the Churche is appoynted vnto him and yet it was neuer otherwise taught by any but that a Bishop in hys owne Diocesse or an Archebishop in his Prouince mighte vse persuasions to ende controuersies and execute the lawes prouided for the same other kinde of deciding controuersies by any priuate authoritie I knowe none in this Church of Englande Wherfore al these allegations be but in vayne for surely not in Cyprians time was the determining of suche controuersies committed to the Pastor and Seigniorie of euery Parishe neyther doth Cyprian make mention of any suche matter if he did yet for gouernment the diuersitie of the time and state of the Church is to be considered Tract 2. 3. as I haue before noted Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 77. Sect. 4. And that there was in his time no such authoritie giuen as that any one might remoue the causes or controuersies which rose as now we see there is when the Bishop of the Di es taketh the matters in controuersie which rise in any Church within his Dioces from the minister Elders to whom the decision perteyneth and as when the archebishop taketh it away from the Bishop it may appeare in the same thirde Epistle of the first booke where he sayth after this sort It is ordeyned and it is equall and right that euery mans cause should be there heard where the fault was committed And a little after he sayth It is meete to handle the matter there where they maye haue both accusers and witnesses of the faulte whiche although it be spoken of them whiche fled out of Affrike vnto Rome yet the reason is generall and dothe aswell serue agaynst these ecclesiasticall persons whych wyll take vnto them the deciding of those controuersies that were done a hundred myle of them Io. Whitgifte Cyprian as I sayd speaketh not one worde of your Seigniorie in that place by you alleages he speaketh of the seueral Prouince ▪ 〈◊〉 Dioces of euery bishop would haue euery matter ended in that Prouince 〈◊〉 Diocesse where it is cōmitted therfore he speaketh there of suche as fled out of Affrica into Italie to haue their matters heard so that this place is soluted by your owne selfe It is méete that the matter should be there handled where there may be had bothe accusers witnesses And that was one of the reasons that the Councel of Affrica sed agaynst the Bishop of Rome clayming interest in hearing appeales from thence But there is no Prouince in Englande so large but that both the accusers and witnesses may be brought into any parte of it from any other parte This reason of yours maye serue better agaynst Westminster hall which is but one place to serue the whole Realme for deciding of controuersies and yet I thinke it very necessarie ▪ You may not wrest that to your purpose or proof of Seigniorie or authoritie therof whiche Cyprian speaketh of diuers Prouinces yea diuers Countreys and Nations This is no good reason Cyprian mislyked the translating of causes from Affrica to Rome Ergo there maye be no causes remoued from Northampton to London Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 77. Sect. 5. And whereas M. Doctor in bothe places of Cyprian seemeth to stande much vpon the words one Bishop and priest the reason thereof dothe appeare in another place of Cyprian moste manyfestly L 3. epi. 13 and that it maketh no more to proue that there ought to be one archebishop ouer a whole prouince than to say that there ought to be but one husbande proueth that therefore there should be but one husbande in euery countrey or prouince whiche shoulde see that all the rest of the husbands do their duties to their wiues For this was the case a Nouatian heretike beeing condemned cast out of the Churches of Affrica by the consent of the Bishops not able by embassage sent to them to obteyne to be receyued to their cōmunion fellowship agayne oeth afterwards to Rome and beeing likewise there repelled in time getteth himselfe by certayne which fauoured his heresie to be chosen Bishop there at Rome Cornelius beeing the Bishop or pastor of those which were there godly minded whervpon it commeth that Cyprian vrgeth one Bishop one priest in the church bicause at Rome there was two wherof one was a wolfe
into errour c. Here you do eyther ignorantly Difference betwixt a king and a tyrant or wilfully confounde Monarchiam with tyrannie For betwixt a king and a tyrant this is one difference that a king ruleth according to the lawes that are prescribed for him to rule by and according to equitie and reason a tyrant doth what him list followeth his owne affections contemneth lawes and sayth Sic volo sic iubeo stat pro ratione voluntas So I will so I commaund my pleasure standeth for reason Now therefore to vse those reasons to ouerthrow a lawful Monarchie which are onely proper to wicked tyrannie is eyther closely to accuse the gouernment of this Church of England of tyrannie or maliciously by subtile dealing and confounding of states to procure the The ecclesiasticall gouernment in this Church not tyrannicall but lawfull misliking of the same in the hearts of the subiects There is neyther Prince nor Prelate in this land that ruleth after their pleasure and lust but according to those lawes and orders that are appointed by the common consent of the whole realme in Parliament and by such lawes of this Monarchie as neuer hitherto any good subiect hath mislyked and therefore your grounde being false how can the rest of your building stand It hath bene sayd before that the Archbishop hath not this absolute authoritie giuen vnto him to doe all things alone or as him lust He is by lawe prescribed both what to doe and howe to procéede in his dooings Moreouer this Churche of Englande Gods name bée praysed therefore hath all poyntes of necessarie doctrine certainly determined Ceremonies and orders e presly prescribed from the whiche neyther Archbyshoppe nor Byshoppe maye swarue and according to the whiche they must bée directed to the obseruing of the whiche also their dutie is to constreyne all those that ée vnder them So that whosoeuer shall wilfully and s ubburnely seuer himselfe from obedience eyther to Archbyshoppe or Bishoppe in suche matters may iustly be called a Schismatike or a disturber of the Church And in this respect is that saying of Cyprian nowe most true For neyther doo Heresyes Li Epist. 3. aryse nor Schismes spring of any other thing but hereof that the Priest of God is not obeyed And so is this of Ieromes in like maner Ecclesiae salus in summi Sacerdotis pendet Contra Luciscrianos dignitate cui si non exors ab omnibus eminens detur potestas tot in Ecclesia efficiuntur schismata quot sacerdotes The safetie of the Churche dependeth vppon the dignitie of the highe Priest to whom vnlesse a singuler and peerelesse power be giuen there will be as manie schismes in the Church as there be Priests You say that it is harder to draw many into an error than one c. whiche is not true The gouernment of one by lawe more safe than of many without lawe when that one ruleth and gouerneth by lawe For the minde of man euen of the best may be ouerruled by affection but so cannot the lawe Wherefore a wicked man directed by lawe gouerneth more indifferently than multitudes withoute lawe bée they neuer so godly Moreouer one Godly wise and learned man is muche more hardly moued to any errour than is the multitude whiche naturally is prone and bent to the same in whome not onely Philosophers but singular Diuines also haue noted great inconstancie and a disposition moste vnméet to gouerne The s ilitude of water returned agaynst the Replier Your similitude of water holdeth not for a little water in a grauelly or stonie Well or Ryuer is not so soone troubled and corrupted as are multitudes of waters in Fennishe and Marrishe groundes Againe a little water in a running Ryuer or Fourde is at all tymes more pure and cleare than is a great quantitie in standing Puddelles to bée short is not the water of those little springs and Cundite heades which béeing safely locked vp and inclosed in stone and Leade do minister greate reléefe to whole Cities muche more pleasaunt hardlyer corrupted lesse troubled than the great waters in the Thames Therefore is a little water procéeding from a good Fountaine by stones and Leade kept from things that may hurt it hardlier putrifyed and corrupted than all the Fennishe waters in a whole Countrey than mightie Pooles yea than the Thames it selfe So is one wise and prudent man gouerned and directed by order and by lawe further from corruption and errour in gouernement than whole multitudes of people of what sorte soeuer they bée You further say that this Ecclesiasticall monarchie hath beene the cause of discorde c. I aunswere that it hath béene the cause of the contrarie vntill suche tyme as it was turned into tyrannie as by all Ecclesiasticall storyes and wryters it may appeare and namely by these two Cyprian and Ierome In all that decretall part 2. c. 9. quaest 3. noted in your Margent there is nothing The places c ed by T. C maketh for the Archbishop agaynste any forme of gouernment vsed by the Archbyshoppe in this Churche of Englande but in plaine and manifest wordes bothe the name and office of the Archebishoppe is there mainteyned and approoued And I wishe that the learned Reader woulde peruse ouer all that parte of Gratian then shoulde he easily perceyue your faythfulnesse in alledging Authorities And thoughe it be somewhat tedious yet that the vnlearned also may haue some taste of your dealing I will sette downe some Canons conteyned in that parte of Gratian. Out of the Councell of Pope Martine hée cyteth this Canon Per singulas prouincias oportet Episcopos cognoscere c. In euerie Prouince the Bishoppes must knowe theyr Metropolitane to haue the cheefe authoritie and that they ought to doe nothing withoute him according to the olde and auncient Canons of oure forefathers for the whiche cause also the Metropolitane muste take vppon him nothing presumptuously without the councell of other Bishoppes And out of the councell of Antioch he hath this Per singulas prouincias Episcopos singulos scire oportet c. In euery prouince the Bishops must know their Metropolitane which gouerneth to haue the chiefe care of the whole prouince and therefore those that haue any causes must resort to the Metropolitane citie c. In all the rest of the Canons he manifestly attributeth superioritie and gouernment to the Archbishop and Metropolitane euen the same that we do in this Church only he denieth that the Metropolitane or Archbyshop hath such absolute authoritie that he can deale any thing in criminall causes agaynst a Byshop or in other common matters without the consent of other Bishops which is not agaynst any thing by me affirmed or contrary to any authoritie claymed by the Archbishop for it hath bene from the beginning denied that the Archbishop of his own absolute authoritie can determine any thing in matters doubtfull and not determined by the lawes and orders of this
such proportion of antiquitie for your Pope to be cheefe head of the whole Churche as is to be shewed for Archbishops to be the chiefe Bishops in their owne prouinces c. Hitherto M. Nowell I marueyle that you will ioyne with the Papistes in so grosse a reason Chap. 3. the. 32. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82 Sect. 1. If you say that the Archbishop of England hath his authoritie graunted of the Prince the Pope of Rome will say that Constantine or Phocas which was Emperour of al Christendome did graunt him his authoritie ouer all Churches But you will say that is a lie but the Pope will set as good a face and make as great a shew therein as you do in diuerse poyntes here But admit it to be yet I say further that it may come to passe and it hath bene that there may be one Christian Cesar ouer all the realmes which haue Churches What if he then will giue that authoritie to one ouer all that one king graunteth in his lande may any man accept and take at his handes such authoritie and if it be not lawfull for him to take that authoritie tell me what fault you can finde in him which may not be founde in them Io. Whitgifte The Pope doth chalenge muche of his temporalties from Constantinus and Phocas but his supremacie and iurisdiction ouer all Churches he claymeth from Peter and from Christe wherein his clayme is more intollerable being most false and his iurisdiction more vsurped beyng wrongfully chalenged you erre therefore in that oynt greatly The Archbishop doth exercise his iurisdiction vnder the Prince and by the Princes authoritie For the Prince hauing the supreme gouernment of the realme in all causes and ouer all persons as she doth exercise the one by the Lorde Chancellor so doth she the other by the Archbishops Your supposition of one Cesar ouer all realmes that haue Churches is but supposed and therfore of no weight but admit it were true yet is there not the like reason for one Archbishop to be ouer all those Churches and ouer one prouince the reasons I haue alleaged before out of M. Caluine other neither is there any man not wilfully blinded or papistically affected that seeth not what great diuersitie there is betwixt one prouince and many kingdomes the gouernment of the one and the gouernment of the other Si vnus duodecim bominibus praefuit an propterea sequetur vnum debere Inst. cap. 8. centum millibus hominum praefici If one was ouer twelue men shall it therefore follow that one may be appoynted ouer an hundred thousand men Sayth M. Caluine Chap. 3. the. 33. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. 2. It will be sayd that no one is able to do the office of a Bishop vnto all the whole Church neyther is there any one able to do the office of a byshop to the whole Churche of England for when those which haue bene most excellent in knowledge and wisdome and most ready and quicke in doing and dispatching matters being alwayes present haue founde ynough to do to rule and gouerne one seuerall congregation what is he which absent is able to discharge his duetie toward so many thousand churches And if you take exception that although they be absent yet they may do by vnder ministers as Archdeacons Ehauncellors Officials Commissaries and such other kinde of people what do you else say than the Pope which sayeth that by his Cardinalles Archbishops and Legates and other such lyke he doth all things For with their handes he ruleth all and by their feete he is present euery where and with their eyes he seeth what is done in all places Let them take heede therefore least if they haue a common defense with the Pope that they be not also ioyned nearer with him in the cause than peraduenture they be aware of (a) Who can beleue you mean good fayth ▪ Truly it is agaynst my will that I am constrayned to make such comparisons not that I thinke there is so great diuersitie betweene the Popedome and the Archbyshopricke but bycause there being great resemblance betwene them I meane hauing regard to the bare functiōs without respecting the doctrine good or bad which they vphold that I say there being great resemblance betwene them there is yet as I am persuaded great difference betwene the persons that execute them The which good opinion conceyued of them I do most humbly beseech them by the glorie of God by the libertie of the Churche purchased by the precious bloud of our sauiour Christe and by their owne saluation that they would not deceyue by reteyning so harde such excessiue and vniust dominion ouer the Church of the liuing God Io. Whitgifte But one man may do the office of an Archbishop in one prouince euery seuerall diocesse whereof hath a Bishop And one man may do the office of a Bishop in one diocesse euery seuerall parishe whereof hath a seuerall Pastor The Archbishop hath a generall charge ouer the prouince to sée that vnitie be kept among the Bishops and that the Bishops do their duties according to the lawes and order of the Churche or else to sée them reformed according to the sayd lawes orders if they shall be cōplayned of to haue neglected the same The lyke care haue the Bishops ouer the seuerall Pastors of their diocesse and other persons Neyther doth their office consiste in preaching onely but in gouerning also in the respect whereof they are ouer aboue the rest This office of gouernment may be well executed in one prouince so much and so far as by the lawes is required and as is cōuenient for the state of the Church but it could not be so ouer all Christendome It may be that some Pastors hauing small charges and busie heades may finde and procure moe matters and controuersies than eyther they be able or willing to compound such busie Pastors there be in England but their vnquietnesse or lacke of abilitie to dispatch those controuersies which they themselues are the authors and causes of doth not proue but that eyther the Archbishop or Bishop may do those things sufficiently and well that do apperteyne to their office and calling So much may they do by vnder ministers as Archdeacons Chauncellors c. as by the rules of the Churche are permitted vnto them and may be conuenient for the time and persons But the office of preaching of ordeyning ministers of suppressing heresies and schismes with such lyke they do not commit vnto them but execute them themselues the which bycause they cannot do throughout all Churches as they may in one Prouince therefore your reason is no reason Moreouer a Bishop of one diocesse or prouince may haue conference with his Archdeacons and Chauncellor and be priuie to all and singular their doings So cannot the Pope with his Cardinalles Archbyshops and Legates c. dispersed thorough out whole Christendome And therefore an Archbishop or Bishop may
to a place byshops or at the leas to consent therevnto to suppresse schismes and such like was affixed to the place and byshop of the same as to Rome Cō tantinople Alexandria c. this do all the olde canons declare as the. 6. and. 7. Canon of the councell of Nice the. 9. of the councell of Antioch and the. 5. of the generall councell of Constantinople the. 12 of the second councell of Carthage the. 21. Concilij Mileuitani the. 11. of the generall councell of Chalcedon to be short all these testimonies and examples alleadged of me before out of Cyprian c. and the continuall practise of the Church And therefore such new cautions here by you set downe be only méete for such a strange and mishapen platforme and kynd of gouernment as is by you and your faction deuised Chap. 3. the. 47. Diuision T. C. Pag. 85. Sect. 2. 3. 4. Of this order and pollicie of the Church if we will see a liuely image a d perfect patterne let vs set before ou eyes the most auncient and gospellike Church that euer was or shal be In the first of the Actes the Church being gathered togither for the election of an Apostle into the place of Iudas the traytor when as the interest of election belonged vnto all and to the Apostles especially aboue the rest out of the whole company Peter riseth vp telleth the cause of their comming togyther with what cautions and qualities they ought to choose another conceyueth the prayer whereby the help of God in that election and his direction is begged and no doubt ex cuted the resi ue of the things which perteyned vnto the whole action In the. of the Actes all the Apostles are accused of dronke nesse Peter answer d for them all wypeth away the infamie they were charged with But you will saye where are the voyces of the rest which did choose Peter vnto this (*) What is this but a meere con 〈◊〉 or ather an imagine answer o yo r ow e ▪ First you must kn w that the scripture setteth not downe euery circumstance and then surely you do Peter great iniurie that aske whether he were chosen vnto it for is it to be thought that Peter would thrust in himselfe to this office or dignitie without the consent and allowance of his fellowes and preuent his fellowes of this preheininence vndoutedly if it had not bin done arrogantly yet it must needes hau a great shew of arrogancie if he had done this without the consent of his fellowes And here you shall heare what the scholiast saith which gathereth the iudgement of greeke diumes (a) This is not poken o cho ing eter to be speaker but of lecting Matthias which pe eyned not to Peter alone 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 speaking of Peter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Behold how he doth all with their common consent And if any man hervpon will say that Peter exercised domination ouer the rest or gat any ar hapostleship beside that the whole storie of the Actes of the Apostles and his whole course of life doth refute that the same scholiast which I made mention of in the same place sayth he did nothing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 imp riously nothing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with dominion or power further I will admonish him to take heede least if he s riue so farre for the Archbishop he slide or euer he be aware into the entes of the Papists which vse these places to proue that Peter had authoritie and rule ouer the rest of the Apostles Io. Whitgifte This is a rodd to beate your selfe with for it is euident euen by these wordes of yours that your deuise is most farthest from the Apostolicall forme for Peter in all Peter chee e in Apostolicall assemblies such assemblies is the chiefe speaketh the first and moderateth the rest in whiche respect most of the olde ecclesiastical writers count him the chiefe of the Apos les neyther do the la e writers diss nt from them in that poynt and yet is there no daunger of sliding into the Papists tents who by this woulde proue the Popes supremacie whose arguments you haue vsed and I haue confuted before To preuent subtily that question which neyther yo do nor can answer that is where it is in scripture mentioned that at euery action or at any time Peter was chosen to speake before the rest or to gouerne the action ou say that first I must know that the scripture setteth not downe euery circumstance and then that I do Peter great iniurie that aske whether he were chosen to it c. To the first I answer that you ought to know how wicked and vngodly a thing it is to ground the alteration of any lawfull kinde of g uernment so long continued and in the best times of the Church practised vpon your owne fonde deuise and coniectures without any ground of scripture yea to make that Peter not cho sen in euery action to be chee e. your foundation which you cannot fynde in the whole scripture but the cleane contrary For shew me one péece of a text that doth but insinuate Peter to haue bin at any time in any action chosen to direct the action I can shew you the contrary especially in the second of the Actes where Peter sodainly answered with a notable apologie in the presence of the Apostles the accusation of dronkennesse layde agaynst him and them neyther can it be that he should expect the voyces of the rest to choose him to be the chéefe for that time in that action Whosoeuer shall well consider the first of the Actes and the. 15. and other places where mention is made of Peters speaking as he shall perceiue that this was Peters peculiar office and always apperteyning vnto him from the ascensiō of Christ to his dying day so shall he also easily vnderstand that he was not at any time chosen to that office by voyces much lesse at euery particular méeting or singular action And dare you presume vpon vaine coniectures without warrant of scripture to bild the foundation of your kinde of gouernment whyche you before sayde is a matter of faythe and saluation is not thys to open a way to vnwritten veri ies and phantasticall interpretatious if your wordes be of suche weighte wyth the Reader that bycause you speake them therefore hée will be aeue them per me ▪ licebit but thys I will assure hym of that he shall beléeue that that is neyther grounded vppon Scripture nor anye learned or aunciente authoritie To the seconde that is that I doe Peter great iniurie c. I saye that I doe him no iniurie at all when I affirme that of hym that the scripture dothe and presume not of mine owne brayne for the mainteyning of an euill cause to imagin that of him whych I haue my selfe deuised besides the word of God as you do most manifestly Peter did not thrust himselfe into any
his argument of the same Epistle giueth this reason why Paule of all his Disciples writte onely to Timothie and Titus bicause he had committed to them the gouernment and care of the Church and the other he carried about with him The same Chrysostome vpon the fourth to the Ephe. speaking of Pastors and Doctors vseth Timothie and Titus for an example Occumenius like wise vpon the fourth to the Ephe. calleth Timothie and Titus Bishops And vpon 1. Timoth. 1. he sayth that Paule ordeyned Timothie Bishop of Ephesus And in the fifth Chapter vpon these words Manus citò nemini imponas he sayth Mandat de ordinationibus Episcopo enim scribebat he giueth preceptes of ordeyning for he wrote to a Bishop Theodoret vpon the first to Timothie affirmeth in playne words that Timothie had cure of soules committed vnto him But to be shorte there is not one olde writer whiche speaking of this matter doth not testifie that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus Last of all I proue him to be Bishop there by the consent of the late wryters 5 Consente of late writers Erasmus in his annotations sayth that Paul made him Bishop so sayth he likewise in his Paraphr 1. Timoth. 4. Pellicane sayth the same 1. Tim. 1. Zuinglius in his booke called Ecclesiastes sayth directly that Timothie was a Bishop ▪ Bucer sayth the same writing vpon the. 4. chapter of the Epistle to the Ephe. Caluine vpon 1. Tim. 1. calleth him Pastor of the Churche of Ephesus And in the 1. Timoth. 4. expounding these words Ne donum quod in te est c. he sayth Spiritus sanctus oraculo Timotheum destinauerat vt in ordinem pastorum cooptaretur The holy Ghost by oracle did appoynt Timothie that he should be chosen into the order of Pastors And in the. 2. Timoth. 4. sayth that he did excell Vulgares pastores common Pastors meaning that he was an excellent Pastor indued with more singular and notable giftes and of greater authoritie than the common sorte of Pastors be And in the same chapter speaking of Paules sending for Timothie from Ephesus to Rome he saythe That there was no small cause why Paule sent for Timothie from that Churche which he ruled and gouerned and that so farre off Heereby we may gather sayth he howe profitable conference is with suche men for it might be profitable to all Churches whiche Timothie might learne in a small time so that the absence of halfe a yere or a whole yere is nothing in comparison of the commoditie that commeth thereby And agayne in the same place he sayth That Paule sent Tichicus to Ephesus when he sent for Timothie to Rome in the meane tyme to supply Tymothies absence By all these places it is manyfest that Caluine taketh Timothie to be Pastor Bishop of Ephesus as I haue beforesayde Bullinger vpon these words also ne neglexeris quod in te est donum c noteth three things to be obserued in the ordering of a Bishop and proueth therby that Timothie was lawfully called to his Bishopricke And vpon these words 2. Tim. 1. Quamobrem cōmonefacio te vt suscites donum c. he sayth that per donū Dei Paule vnderstandeth the gifte of Prophecying functionem Episcopalem the offyce of a Bishop to the whiche the Lord called Timothie but by the ministerie of Paule What can be spokē more playner Illyricus in his epistle dedicatorie to the newe Testament sayth that Paule praysed Timothie his Bishop and in his Preface to the epistle written to Timothie he calleth Timothie and Titus praestantes doctores multarumque ecclesiarum Episcopos Notable Doctors and Bishops of many Churches Of the same iudgement is Musculus and all the rest of the late wryters that I haue read one onely excepted who notwithstanding in effecte confesseth also that he was Bishop at Ephesus for in his annotations 1. Tim. 4. vpon these words vsquedum venero c. he saythe that when Paule sente for the ministers of Ephesus to Miletum Acts. 20. he sent for Timothie especially Cuius ministros meaning of Ephesus ac proinde Timotheum inprimis Miletum accersiuit But it is manyfest Act. 20. that they were all Pastours and Bishops therefore Timothie was a Bishop The same author vpon these wordes 1. Timoth. 5. aduersus presbyterum c. sayth Timotheum in Ephesino presbyterio tum fuisse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Antistitē vt vocat Iustinus And addeth that it is manifest by Cyprian that the Bishop dyd rule in the Colledge of Seniors Then if he that was chiefe in the Colledge of Seniors was a Bishop and Timothie was chiefe in the College of Seniors it must néedes followe that Timothie was a Bishop But it maye appeare howe little learning and learned men be estéemed of those whiche to maynteyne contention are not ashamed to denie that whiche all learned men agrée vpon The chiefe reasons to the contrarie answered Their reasons as in number they be not many so in substance they be nothing I will recite the chiefe and leaue the rest to children to be discussed The first is taken out of the. 2. Ti. 4. where Paule sayth to Timothie Opus perage 1 The place 2. Tim. 4. answered The work of an Euāgelist Euangelistae do the worke of an Euangelist Their reason is this Paule biddeth Timothie do the worke of an Euangelist Ergo Timothie was not Bishop First therfore we must searche out what Opus Euangelistae is and then trie whether it be incident to the office of a Bishop or no. Bullinger vpon that place sayth that he doth the worke of an Euangelist which preacheth the Gospell purely and is not by any persecutions or aduersitie driuen from his calling Hemingius sayth that opus Euangelistae generally taken is to preache the Gospell Musculus in locis commun ticulo de verbi ministris sayth that he is Euangelista eyther that preacheth or that writeth the Gospel and that Paul in the first sense speaketh to Timothie saying opus fac euangelistae And in the same place among other things that Paule requireth of a Bishop he affirmeth this to be one vt opus peragat Euangelistae So sayth Illyricus likewise Zuinglius also is of the same iudgement in his booke called Ecclesiastes and proueth by that text of Paule that the worke of an Euangelist and of a Bishop is all one Nowe howe this reason dothe followe Paule did bid Timothie preache the Gospell purely and constantly Ergo Timothie was not a Bishop let euery man iudge The seconde reason is taken out of the. 4. to the Ephe. Et ipse dedit alios quidem Apostolos 2 The place Ephe. 4. answered alios verò Prophetas alios autem Euangelistas alios autem pastores ac doctores He therfore gaue some to be Apostles and some Prophetes and some Euangelistes and some Pastors and Teachers The reason is framed on this sorte An Euangelist and a Bishop were distincte offices and coulde not be bothe ioyned in one But
〈◊〉 and of other Byshoppes sayeth that they were assembled oute at Aquileia by the commaundemente of the Emperoure The same dothe Hierome testifye concernyng a Councell holden at Rome In Epita Pauli Pope Iulio Epist. 9. ad Theodos. desyreth the Emperoure that by his authoritie there myghte be a Councell in Italye Zozomen libr. 6. cap. 7. sheweth howe certayne Catholyke Bishoppes intreated the Emperoure that they myght haue leaue to gather together for the redressing of certaine erroures But hat shall I neede to labour in a matter moste manifest No man can be ignorant that readeth Ecclesiasticall stories but that the Emperoures authoritie was r quired in summoning Councels and Synodes not only generall but prouinciall also Secondly it is vntrue that the Metropolitane in this Churche dothe not call Synodes or propoundeth not the matters in them c. For he dothe bothe althoughe he calleth no Prouinciall Synode withoute the commaund ment of the Prince no more than other Metropolitanes haue oone in the beste tyme of the Churche vnder christ an Princes Laste of all thoughe all thys were true that is éere vntruely affirmed yet were the office of an Archebishoppe necessarie for it dothe not onely consiste in calling Synodes but in sundrye thinges besyde as I haue shewed before and this councell of Antioche manyfestly declareth And surely yf you would proue any thyng hereof directely it s ould bée thys that eyth r the Archebishoppe dothe not exercyse that iurisdiction whyche he oughte to doe or else can not doe that whiche perteyneth to his office and so shoulde you speake for the amendement of the Archbishops iurisdiction Agayne you saye an other cause appeareth there whyche was to see that the Bishops kepte themselues within theyr owne diocesse c. but fyrst thys may be doone without an Archbishoppe c. I tell you there is no suche thyng in that nynthe Canon I say further that it maye beste an mos e orderly bée doone by an Archebis oppe Thirdely I answere as before that it is but one parte of his office Fourthely I saye vnto you that this is a symple Argumente the Archebishoppe dothe not kéepe suche olde Canons as bée not in vse in thys Churche therefore there is no neede of his office Laste of all you oughte to knowe that th se whom y u call wandering ministers be fai hefull Preachers a number of them And suche as laboure diligentely in preachyng the woorde and haue not a little profyted the flocke of Chryste so that youre conclusion is not woor h a strawe Chap. 5. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 1. Agayne the cause why the Metropolitane differed from the reste and why the callyng of the Synode was gyuen to him as it appeareth in the same Councell was for that the Chap. 9. greatest concour e was to that place and moste assemblie of menne wherevnto also may be added for that there was the best commoditie of lodgyng and of vittayling and for that as it appeareth in other Councells it was the place and feare of the Empire But with vs neyther the greatest conc urse nor assemblie of men nor the greatest commoditie of lodgyng and vittayi g neyther yet the seate of the kingdome is in the Metropolitane citie therefore with vs there is no suche cause of a Metropolitane or Archebishop Io. Whitgifte This is not alleadged as a cause why there shoulde be a Metropolitane or why he differed from y e rest or why the calling of the Synode was giuen vnto hym but rather why he was placed in the chiefe citie so that these wordes touche not the Metropolitane or his office but the aptnesse of the place where he shoulde continue And yet if credite be to be giuen yther to interpreters or to the glosse in Gratian caus 9. quae 3. per singulas the wordes be not as you interprete them for thus they be set downe in the booke of Councels Tom. 1. Pr pter quod ad Metropolim omnes vndique qui negoti videntur habere concurrant For the which let all that haue any businesse haue recourse from all places into the Metropolitane citie An other ranslation is thus Propter quod ad Metropolitanam ciuitatem ab his qui causas habent con urratur And this last interpretation the authors of the Centuries do vse Cent. 4. Of whiche wordes there can be no suche thing gathered as you doe imagine but farre otherwise And the meaning of the Councell is that suche as haue causes to be heard may resort to the Metropolitane citie where the Metropolitane is And you must vnderstand that it was in the power of the Emperour and other Princes to appoint the seat of the Metropolitan where it pleased them as it appereth in the. 12. cap. of the Councel of Chalcedon and in the. 17. Hom. of Chrysostome Ad populum Antiochenum Chap. 5. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 2. In the Councel of Carthage holden in Cyprians tyme it appeareth that no Bishoppe had authoritie ouer an other to compell an other or to condemne an other but euery Bishop was left at his owne libertie to answere vnto God and to make his accounte vnto Christe and if anye thing were doone against any Bishoppe it was done by the consent of all the bishoppes in the prouince or as many as coulde conuemently assemble Therefore Cyprian whiche was the Metropolitane bishop had then no authoritie ouer the rest and yet then there being no christian magistrate T C con esseth Cyprian to be a Metropolitane whych would punishe the disorders whiche were committed of the christian bishops there was greatest neede that there shoulde haue bene some one which myght haue had the correction of the reste If therefore when there was most nede of this absolute authoritie there neither was nor might be any suche it foloweth that nowe we haue a Christian magistrate which may and ought to punyshe the disorders of the Ecclesiasticall persons and may and ought to call them to account for their faultes that there shoulde be no suche nede of an Archbishop Io. Whitgifte You here fall into the same faulte that a little before you ascribed to me for you come backe from the Councell of Antioche whiche was Anno. 360. to the Councell of Carthage being Anno. 260. I omitte to tell you that that Councell concluded an heresie for the whiche only it was assembled And therefore though it be in the booke of the Councells yet is it not reckened among the Councels Only I demaund the woordes of that Councell that doe signifie one Bishoppe not to haue had authoritie ouer an other I tolde you before out of Cyprian himselfe and out of Gregorie Nazianzene that he had ample and large iurisdiction The wordes of Cyprian in that Councell whiche séeme to touche the matter you talke of I haue expounded and answered before they make not for your purpose It is no reason to proue that a Bishop muste not be subiecte to
anye bycause he is lefte at his owne libertie to answere to God and to make his accompte vnto Christe For by the same reason he myghte be exempled from the authoritie of the Ciuill Magistrate and from all Lawes and orders touching Churche matters and so myghte euery priuate man in lyke manner But you muste remember that a Bishoppe is so lefte to his owne libertie to answere vnto God and make accompte vnto Chryste that hée muste also acknowledge his duetie towardes man and be subiecte to orders and lawes What do you saye for the fréedome of a Bishop from obedience vnto the Archebishop but it may be sayde lykewyse of his fréedome from subiection to his Prince in lyke matters and of euery Anabaptist for his deliuerance from subiection to all superiours ▪ Wherfore you wring Cyprians wordes to an euill sense You haue bin oft tolde that no Archbyshop hath such power ouer either Byshop or inferioure minister that of his owne authoritie he can do any thing againste them The lawes of the realme will not suffer it no the Canon law dothe by no meanes permit it And therefore you do but dreame of an authoritie that is not Cyprian being a Metropolitane had authoritie ouer the rest The ciuill Magistrate doth gouerne the ecclesiasticall state punisheth disorders among them calleth them to accompt for their faults by Archbyshops Byshops and other officers as he doth the same in the ciuil state by ciuill magistrates Your meaning is not I dare say to haue the Prince heare al matters hir selfe You wil giue hir leaue to appoint vnder officers as Moses Dauid Solomon Iehosaphat other good kings haue done If you will not allow the Magistrate so to do let vs vnderstand your reasons for surely I beléeue there is some such toy in your head Chap. 5. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 3. The moderation of their authoritie in the aunciēt times may appeare first by a canon which is falsely giuen to the Apostles being as it is like a canon of the councell of Antioch (*) This canon is 〈◊〉 both by adding and 〈◊〉 whe in although 34. Canon it ordeyneth one Primate in euery nation ouer the rest and will not suffer any great matter to be done without him as also will not suffer him to do any thing without the rest yet euery Byshop might do that which apperteyned vnto his owne parrish without him (a) This you add vnto the canon and he nothing to do with him in it But as it seemeth the meaning of the canon was that if there were any waightie matter to be cōcluded for all the Churches in the nation then the byshops of euery parish should not enterprise any thing without calling him to councell Now we see that the Archbyshop medleth with that which euery Byshop doth in his owne dioces and hath his visitations for that purpose and will take any matter out of their hands concludeth also of diuers matters neuer making the Byshops once priuie to his doings Io. Whitgifte If it be a false canon or falsely gyuen to the Apostles why do you vse it as a proofe I might ay vnto you as you said before vnto me haue you such penurie of proofes that you are constrayned to alleadge false canons if it be a canon of the Councell of Antioch shew what canon it is if it be within that Councel vndoutedly it is the. 9. canon before by you alledged and how muche that proues your cause the very ignorant reader may iudge But let vs heare this canon be it true or false and consider your collections of it The canon alledged against himselfe the wordes I haue recited before but I will set them downe againe that your pythy reasons reasoning altogyther against your selfe may appeare The Byshops of euery nation or countrie must know who amongst them is chiefe whome they ought to esteeme Can. Apost 34. as their head and do nothing without his councell besides those things only which belong vnto their owne parish and the places which are vnder it neyther ought he to do any thing without the aduise of them all for so shal there be concord and God shall be glorifyed by Christ Iesus in the holy Ghost c. Here first ther must be a Primate or chiefe Byshop that is Archbyshop of euery nation or countrie whome the rest of the byshops must acknowledge as it were for their head Secondly the Byshops must do nothing vnaccustomed without him Thirdly that the other Byshops may do those things only quae ad parochiam eius regiones ei subditas pertinent VVhich perteine vnto his parish and places subiect vnto it which last words you leaue out Last of all that thys Primate must do nothing without their consents what hath the Archbishop lost by this canon surely not one iote I think verily he doth not require so much ▪ Euery byshop may do as much in his owne dioces now the authoritie of the Prince and hir lawes reserued as he might do by that canon for the Archbyshop dothe not rule by will but by law not of himselfe but vnder the Prince to whome both he and all other byshops be subiect You hit nothing lesse than the meaning of the canon nay vndoutedly you imagine a sense contrary to the expresse words of the canon When the Archbyshop dothe visite it is not to make newe lawes or appointe newe orders excepte he be commaunded so to doe by greater authoritie but to see those orders and lawes kepte that all Bishoppes and other are bounde vnto and therefore he doth nothing in their diocesse contrary to that which they are bound to do neyther doth he cōclude any thing without them which by their consent and authoritie of the law and Prince is not giuen vnto him Chap. 5. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 4. Higinus or as some thinke Pelagius I speake here as Platina reporteth not thinking that Platina cap Higin in Higinus time ther was any Metropolitane ordeyned that no Metropolitane should cōdemne any Byshop vnlesse the matter wer first both heard and discussed by the byshops of that prouince at what time and after a greate while a byshop was the (*) A grosse petitio of the principle or rather an vntruth same we call a minister Nowe the Archbyshop will without any further assistance or discussion by others suspend him and in the end also throw him out of his charge and if he haue the same authoritie ouer a byshop as a byshop ouer the minister as it is said he may do the like vnto him also Io. Whitgifte This is another forged witnesse such sound proofes the man hath that reprooues other men for the like and yet God knoweth his witnesse maketh nothing for him For who giueth authoritie to the Archbyshop to depriue eyther Byshop or inferiour minister without due proofe and examination of the cause touching consente of other if he deale with him according to
Riches no impediment to godly men Wherein our Bishops may be compared with the olde Bishops his duetie And in suche externall thinges the condition of the time and state of the Countrie is to be obserued Lette our Bishoppes be compared with them in truthe of doctrine in honestie of life in diligent walking in theyr vocation and in knowledge I speake of the moste in bothe ages and I thinke the difference will not be so greate but that they maye bothe knowe one another and very well agrée among themselues this onely excepted that the doctrine of the Gospell is now much more purely professed by our Bishops than it was at that tyme by them for both the Councels are in sundrie poynts very corrupt Chap. 5. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 2. In the same councell of Carthage it was decreed that no Bishop sitting in any place shoulde suffer any Minister or Elder to stande Nowe I will report me to themselues howe this is kept Can. 34. and to the poore ministers which haue to do with them and come before them Io. Whitgifte A poore quarell though this humilitie is to be required in all Bishops yet is it to be vsed with discretion for thus to deale with a proude and hawtie stomacke were but to giue nourishment to arrogancie and contempt It is méete that euerie man haue that honour and reuerence giuen vnto him which his place his office and his person requireth And as it is humilitie in him to remitte any part of it euen so it is an intollerable contempt and pryde for those that be inferiours so to looke for suche equalitie that in the meane tyme they refuse to doe that whiche ciuilitie good maners and duetie requyreth But let all men consider those notes and tokens of your hawtie stomackes and perswade themselues that it woulde not bée long before you woulde chalenge the same equalitie wyth other states and degrées in like maner Chap. 5. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 3. The Bishoppes in tymes past had no tayle nor trayne of men after them and thought it a slaunder to the Gospell to haue a number of men before and behinde them And therefore is (*) He was reproued for vsing himselfe like a capitaine being accompanied with a garde of souldiours Paulus Samosatenus noted as one that brought Religion into hatred and as one that feemed to Euseb. 7. cap. 30. take delight rather to be a Capitaine of two hundred than a Bishop bycaus he had gotten hym a sorte of seruing men to waight on him An other example not vnlyke and lykewyse reprehended is in Ruffine of one (a) Gregorie for George Gregorie a Bishop Nowe in our dayes it is thought a commendation to Ruf. lib. 1. cap. 23. the Bishop a credite to the Gospell if a Bishop haue 30. 40. 60. or mo wayting of him some before some behinde whereof three partes of them set a part the carying of a dishe vnto the table haue no honest or profitable calling to occupie themselues in two houres of the day to the filling of the Churche and common wealth also with all kinde of disorders and greater incommodities than I minde to speake of bicause it is not my purpose Io. Whitgifte In Eusebius it is sayde that Paulus Samosatenus vsed to walke publikely in the market places reading letters and boasting himselfe being accompanied with a number 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is accompanied with spearemen and halbardes The example of P. Samo ▪ vniustly applied to our Bishops of Souldiours some before him and some behinde him more like to a Capitaine than a Bishop If any of our Bishops walke in the stréetes to be séene or stande in the market places or other open and publike assemblies reading of letters accompanied with Souldiours and men of warre then may it be truly sayde of them that is here truly spoken of Paulus Samosatenus But if they being farre from such vanitie kéepe that countenance and retinue of men which their place the maner of their Countrey the honour of the Prince the state of the Church requireth then doe you vncharitably and vniustly applie this example agaynst them But vnlesse Paulus Samosatenus had béene riche and wealthie howe coulde this pompe of his haue béene mainteyned Wherefore this example is rather agaynst you than for you neyther doth it condemne wealth and ryches in Bishops but pride vainglorie and lightnesse For they accuse him of spoyling the Church and thereby enriching himselfe In the example of George whom you all Gregorie mentioned in uffine there is no worde spoken of any seruing men or souldiours onely he is there reproued because he got his Bishoprike by violence and thought that the office of iudgement in Rufsin lib. 1. cap. 23. ciuill causes was rather committed vnto him than the Priesthoode c. If any Bishop offende in the like with vs it is the fault of the man not of the office By this example also it may appeare that Bishoppes in those dayes had ryches and authoritie For this abusing of their wealth and authoritie doth argue that they had both which they might haue vsed rightly and well Chap. 5. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 4. And here I will note another cause which brought in this pompe and princely estate of Byshops wherein although I will say more in a worde for the pompous estate than M. doctour hath done in all his treatise yet I will shewe that although it were more tollerable at the fyrst nowe it is by no meanes to be borne wyth * Theo. li. cap. 8. In the Ecclesiasticall Storie we reade that the inscriptions of diuers Epistles sent vnto Byshops were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * Li. eodem cap. 18. We reade also of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 house of salutations which Ambrose Bishop of Millayn had As for the tytle of moste honourable Lordes it was not so great nor so stately as the name of a Lorde or knight in oure Countrey for all those that knowe the maner of the speach of the Grecians doe well vnderstande howe they vsed to call euerie one of any meane countenance in the common wealth where he lyued 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is Lorde so we see also the Euangelists turne Rabbi which signifyeth master by the Gre ke worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lorde as lykewyse in Fraunce they call euery one that is a Gentleman or hath any honest place Monseur and so they wyll say also sauing your honour Nowe we know this worde Lorde in our Countrey is vsed otherwise to note some great personage eyther by reason of birth or by reason of some high dignitie in the common wealth which he occupieth and therefore those tytles although they were somewhat excessiue yet were they nothing so swelling and stately as ours are Io. Whitgifte The wise man sayth Let not thine owne mouth prayse thee but you for lacke of Pro. 27.
our holydayes be some what short in number of theirs so far are we from hauing more than double as many as they had But your spirite is acquaynted with suche vntrue assertions But you saye we mighte haue all these commodities without all those daungers c. and why not as well this waye whiche the whole Churche hathe from tyme to tyme allowed as that way whiche certayne particular persons of their owne heades haue deuysed There is nothing that you haue to saye agaynst these dayes but onely their names and that those memories of Martyrs strayghten our consideration of them vnto those dayes c. and that men be inhibited from bodily labour to serue God al which I haue answered before and the latter in parte you confesse for you woulde haue certayne dayes appoynted for publike prayer the celebration of the sacraments hearing the worde and you seeme not to deny but that the remembrance of Saincts and Martyrs may be kepte onely you mislike that in the rest of the day men should be debarred from their bodily labours exercising their dayly vocations Wel I perceeue that something you woulde finde faulte with if you knewe what They are not so bounde from labour as it appeareth in the lawes of this Churche but that they may doe their necessarie businesse and in déede they are so farre from scrupulositie in thys poynte that all the punishmentes appoynted can not kéepe a number of them from their worldly affayres not in the very time of publike prayers and preaching of the worde and yet I sée no cause why they maye not iustly be wholly debarred excepte some vrgent occasion require sometime the contrarie from their bodily labours in suche dayes for are not the housholders bounde of duetie as well to instruct their families as the Pastor is bounde to instructe them and when is there a more conuenient tyme than in suche dayes If you haue suche a regarde to their worldly affayres is it not more commodious for them to abstayne wholly from worke vpon these Holydayes when they fall than twice or thrice euery wéeke halfe the daye Therefore this reason of yours as it is worldly so is it weake bothe in the respect of God and of the worlde also Your imagination that the kéeping of Easter dothe fetter the meditation of Easter to a A bayne reason fewe dayes c. and so likewyse the reste of the Holydayes I haue answered before it is a moste vayne reason and you mighte as well saye that there oughte to be no certayne tymes appoynted for the receyuing of the holy Communion bycause the meditation of the death and passion of Christe and the application of the same is fettered to these certayne dayes whiche shoulde continually be thoughte of and dayly as long as we lyue The same mighte you saye likewyse of the Sabboth daye But you oughte to knowe that the especiall celebrating of the memorie of Christes resurrection once in the yeare is no more a fettering of our meditation thereof to that daye onely than the receyuing of the Communion once in the moneth is a strayghting of our consideration of the deathe and passion of Christe to that time onely wherein we receyue the holy Sacrament By this reason of yours we muste eyther haue suche memories celebrated at all times or at no time But wyse men can consider howe farre you wander for want of reason Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 176. Sect. 3. 4. 5. Ierome writing vpon the. 4. chap. to the Galatians sayth on this Ierome sorte If it be not lavvfull to obserue dayes moneths times and yeres vve also fall into the like fault vvhich obserue the passion of Christ the Sabboth day and the time of Lent the feasts of Easter and of Pentecoste and other times appoynted to Martyrs according to the maner and custome of euery nation to the vvhich he that vvill ansvvere simply vvill say that our obseruing of dayes is not the same vvith the Ievvish obseruing for vve doe not celebrate the feast of vnleuened bread but of the resurrection death of Christe c. And least the confused gathering togither of the people should diminishe the fayth in Christ therfore certayne dayes are appoynted that vve might all meete togither in one place not bicause those dayes be more holy but to the intent that in vvhat day soeuer vve meete vve may reioyce to see one another c. Augustine in lyke manner Lib. 18. de ciuitate Dei cap. 27. sayth That vve honor Augustine the memories of Martyrs as of holy men and suche as haue striuen for the truthe euen to death c. The same Augustine in his boke Contra Adamantum Manachaei Discip. ca. 16. expounding the woordes of the Apostle Ye obserue dayes yeares and tymes wryteth thus But one may thinke that he speaketh of the Sabboth do not vvee say that those tymes ought not to be obserued but the thinges rather that are signified by them for they did obserue them seruilely not vnderstanding vvhat they did signifie and prefigurate this is that that the Apostle reproueth in thē in all those that serue the creature rather than the Creator for vve also solemnly celebrate the Sabboth day and Easter and all other festiuall dayes of Christians but bycause vve vnderstand vvhervnto they do appertayne we obserue not the times but those thinges vvhich are signified by the tymes c. T. C Pag. 122. Sect. 1. Nowe whereas M. Doctor citeth Augustine and Ierome to proue that in the Churches in theyr times there were holy dayes kepte besides the Lordes day he might haue also cyted Ignatius and Tertullian and Cyprian which are of greater aunctencie and would haue made more for the credite of his cause seing he measureth all his truthe almoste through the whole booke by the crooked measure and yarde of tyme. For it is not to be denied but this keeping of Holydayes especially of the Easter and Pentecoste are very auncient and that these holydayes for the remembraunce of Martyrs were vsed of long tyme but these abuses were no auncienter than other were grosser also than this was as I haue before declared and were easie further to be shewed if neede required and therefore (*) An vnlearned shifte I appeale from these examples to the Scriptures and to the examples of the perfectest Churche that euer was which was that in the Apostles tymes Io. Whitgifte I knowe that I might haue alleaged many other authorities for the proofe of The Repliee appealeth itō auncient authoritie this matter but I thought these two sufficient as they be in déede in such a matter as this is and your lightly reiecting of them will winne no credite to your cause among wise and learned menne You may easilie perceyue by the woordes of bothe these Authours that these dayes in their tyme were rightly and without all superstition vsed But you do well to appeale from these examples
and from all other auncient authoritie of learned menne for you knowe full well your lacke of abilitie to maynteyne this and other your opinions by the testimonies of auncient wryters nay you can not but confesse that the olde learned Fathers are vtterly agaynst you which is the cause why you appeale from them but it is an vnlearned shirt Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag â–ª 122. Sect. 1. And yet also I haue to say that the obseruation of those feastes firste of all was much better than of later tymes For Socrates confesting that neyther our Sauiour Christe nor the Apostles li. 5. ca. 22. did decree or institute any holydayes or laye any yoke of bondage vpon the neckes of those which came to the preaching addeth further that they did vse firste to obserue the holydayes by custome and (*) Socrates wordes vntruly reported that as euery man was disposed at home which thing if it had remayned in that freedome that it was done by custome and not by commaundement at the will of euery one and not by constraynt it had bene much better than it is now and had not drawne such daungers vpon the posteritie as did after ensue and we haue the experience of Io. Whitgifte Surely they were neuer better nor more pure from al supersticion and other errours than they be nowe in this Churche and therefore in that respecte there is no cause to complaine You do not truely reporte Socrates words nor yet his meaning for he doth not say Socrat. Lib. Cap â–ª 22. that euery man at home kepte those dayes as he was disposed but thus he sayth VVherefore neyther the Apostle nor the Gospell do at any tyme laye a yoke of bondage vpon them whiche come vnto the preachyng of the Gospell but menne themselues euery one in theyr countrie according as they thought good celebrated the feast of Easter and other holydayes of custome for the intermission of theyr laboures and remembrance of the healthfull passion his meaning is not that euery priuate man in his owne house kepte Easter and the other feastes as him lysted but that euery Churche appoynted such an order and tyme for the same as it thought conuenient and that this is his meaning that whiche followeth in that Chapter and expresseth his owne opinion of this mater dothe euidently declare His woordes be these Surely I am of this opinion that as many other thinges in diuerse places haue bene brought in of custome so the feaste of Easter had a priuate or peculiar obseruation with euery particular people of custome bycause none of the Apostles as I haue sayde did make any lawe hereof c. For his whole drifte is to proue that the feast of Easter concerning the daye and tyme was diuersly obserued in diuers Churches and Countries but he neyther can proue nor goeth aboute to proue that there was any Churche wherein it was not obserued And I haue before declared that the feast of Easter was obserued by the Apostles and sithence that tyme continued Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 177. Sect. 1. Pag. 178. Sect. 1. c. Other reformed Churches also haue dayes ascribed to Sainets Bullinger aswell as we as it may appeare by these wordes of Bullinger writing Obseruing of holydayes in other reformed churches vpon the. 14. to the Rom. In the auncient vvriters as Eusebius and Augustine thou mayste finde certayne memorials appoynted to certayne holy menne but after an other manner not muche differing from oures vvhich vve as yet reteyne in our Churche of Tigurie for vvee celebrate the natiuitie of Christe his Circumcision Resurrection and Ascention the comming of the holy Ghost the feastes also of the virgin Mary Iohn Baptiste Magdalene Stephen and the other Apostles yet not condemning those vvhich obserue none but onely the Sabboth daye For perusing olde Monumentes vve finde that this hath alvvayes bene left free to the Churches that euery one should follow that in these things that should be most best and conuenient M. Bucer in his Epistle to master Alasco speaking of holydayes Bucer sayeth That in the Scriptures there is no expresse commaundement of them it is gathered notvvithstanding sayeth he from the example of the olde people that they are profitable for vs to the encrease of godlinesse vvhich thing also experience proueth To be shorte Illyricus writing vpon the fourth to the Galat. maketh Obseruing of dayes considered foure wayes this diuision of obseruing dayes and times The first is naturall as of somer spryng time winter c. tyme of planting tyme of sovvyng time of reaping c. 1 The second is ciuill 2 The third Ecclesiasticall as the Sabboth daye and other dayes vvherein 3 is celebrated the memorie of the chiefe histories or actes of Christe vvhiche be profitable for the instruction of the simple that they may the better remember vvhen the Lorde vvas borne vvhen he suffred vvhen he ascended vp into heauen and be further taught in the same The fourth superstitious vvhen we put a necessitie vvorshipping merite 4 or rightuousnesse in the obseruing of tyme and this kinde of obseruing dayes and tymes is onely forbidden in this place Thus you see by the iudgementes of all these learned menne that dayes ascrybed vnto Sainctes is no suche matter as ought to make menne separate themselues from the Churche and absteyne from allowing by subscription so worthie and godly a booke as the booke of common prayer is much lesse to make a Schisme in the Churche for the same T. C. Pag. 122. Sect. 2. 3. As touching M. Bucers M. Bullingers and Illyricus allowance of them if they meane such a celebration of them as that in those dayes the people may be assembled and those partes of the Scriptures which concerne them whose remembraunce is solemnised redde expounded and yet men not debarred after from their dayly workes it is so much the lesse matter if otherwise that good leaue they giue the Churches to dissent from them in that poynte I do take it graunted vnto me being by the grace of God one of the Churche Although as touching M. Bullinger it is to be obserued since the time that he wrote that vpon the Romanes there are aboute 35. yeares sithence which time although he holde still that the feastes kept vnto the Lorde as of the Natiuitie Easter and Pentecoste dedicated vnto the Lord may be kept yet he demeth flatly that it is lawfull to keepe holy the dayes of the Apostles as Confessio Ecclesiae Tigur alianim Eccles cap. 24. it appeareth in the confession of the Tiguryne Church ioyned with others Io. Whitgifte How perfect an Answere this is to these learned mennes authorities lette the learned Reader iudge You are not a Churche but a member of the Churche and therefore seing the matter is such as the Churche may take an order in you ought to submitte your selfe to the determination of that Churche
For proofe of all that I haue here sayde I referre my selfe to common experience and the like pract ses in other Churches by persons of much like disposition as the notes in the beginning of the second edition of my Answer to the Admonition doth more 〈◊〉 large declare What that lawfull eccles asticall gouernment of those which you say God hath appoynted in his word is ▪ and whether it verifyeth my saying or no shall be séene whē we come to that part of your Replie Certain it is that you would transferre both the authoritie of the Prince Archbyshop and Bishop to your selues and your seniors ▪ for that is the lawfull ecclesiasticall gouernment you meane And those be the persons whome you thinke God to haue appoynted in his word as it will fall out more euidētly hereafter Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 87. Sect. 2. Wherefore you that be in authoritie if you loue the peace and prosperitie An exhortation to those that be in authoritie of the Church of Christ if you desire the good successe of the Gospell if you will preserue the state of this Realme if you thinke it necessary to haue good magistrates to haue good lawes and orders in a common wealth if you esteeme learning and seeke to preferre it if you hate anarchian confusion Anabaptisme if you allowe of your owne condition ▪ and like of a kingdome better than of a popular state Then prouide betime some speedy remedy for these and suche like kind of men and if the religion you haue established be good if the orders and lawes you haue made be conuenient let them not be written against spoken against nay openly contemned and broken withoute sharpe and seuere punishment suffer not suche as execute them to be contemned hated discouraged and oftentimes frumped Lawekeepers contemned by some superiours Either let your lawes be mainteined as lawes or else deliuer vs from our dutie in executing and obeying of them T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 2. He turneth him self to those that be in authoritie whom he would make beleue that it standeth vpon the ouerthrow of the church of religion of order of the Realme of the state of Princes of Magistrates which are by this meanes established and whose estates are made this way most sure when as the true causes of these clamors and outcries that M. Doctor maketh is nothing else but the feare of the ouerthrow of that honoure which is to the dishonor of God and ignomune of his Church and which maketh to the good dispensing of these goodes for the ayd and helpe of the Church which now serue to oppresse it Io. Whitgifte It shall be sufficient to referre the consideration of this your answer to such as be in authoritie who can best consider of both our meanings Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 88. Sect. 1. Touching the Court of faculties I cannot say muche for I haue no great experience of it and lesse knowledge in the lawe notwithstanding The Court of faculties bycause by lawful authoritie it is allowed in this Realme I cannot but reuerently iudge of it for in such matters I thinke it a poynt of modesty to suppose the best and to absteine from cōdemning of that gouernment whiche is allowed as conuenient If there be faultes in the officers they may be corrected T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 2. As for the Court of faculties the corruptions thereof being so cleare that all men see them and so grosse that they which cannot see may grope them M. Doctor answereth that he knoweth not what it meaneth and therefore is moued of modesty to thinke the best of it whiche is but a simple shift For besides that that the Admonition speaketh nothing of it but that the streates and high wayes talke of if there had bin any defense for it it is not to be thought that M. Doctor woulde haue bin so negligent an aduocate as to haue omitted it seeing if he were ignorant he mighte haue had so easily and with so little cost the knowledge of it As for his modesty his bolde asseueration of things which are doubtfull which are false which are altogyther vnlikely which are impossible for him to know doth sufficiently bewray and make so well knowne that no such visard or paynting can serue to make men beleeue that meere modesty shut vp his mouth from speaking for the Court of faculties which hath opened his mouth so wide for the defense of those things wherein as it falleth out he hathe declared himselfe to haue lesse skill and vnderstanding than he hathe of that Court. Io. Whitgifte I haue spoken my cōscience of that Court neither did I cōferre with any to giue me any instructions concerning it And surely as I thought then so do I think now I haue affirmed nothing which I will not stand to except you can conuince me by better reasons than I haue heard any as yet That Court hath the original and authoritie from the Prince it is established and confirmed by Parliament it medleth nothing with that that perteyneth to the office eyther of Byshop or Pastor The principall officers be the Lord Chauncellour and the Archbyshop It maynteyneth the Quéenes prerogatiue in causes ecclesiasticall and was erected the. 25. reare of King Henry the eyght by authoritie of Parliāment to the suppressing and vtter abolishing of the Byshop of Romes iurisdiction It medleth not for any thing that I know with matters that by learning can be proued to be against the word of God and in some poynts it cannot without inconuenience be missed But this is a matter of pollicie and therefore I leaue the further consideration of it to suche as God hathe committed the gouernmente of thys realme vnto to whome it dothe especially apperteyne Of preaching before the administration of the Sacramentes Tract 12. The first Diuision Admonition Now to the second point which concerneth ministration of sacraments In the olde time the word was (t) Math. 3. 12. preach d before they were ministred now it is supposed to be sufficient if it be read Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 89. Sect. 1. 2. 3. The second external note of the true Church of Christ is ministring The second externall note of the church of the Sacraments sincerely you would proue that this Church of England hath not the Sacraments sincerely ministred first by three generall reasons perteyning to both the sacramēts then by certaine abuses which you find seuerally in either of them The first generall reason is this In olde time the worde was preached before the Sacraments were ministred now it is supposed to be sufficient if it be red To proue that the word was preached before the Sacramentes were ministred you alleadge the third of Matthew vers 12. VVhich hath his fanne in his hand and vvill make cleane his flovver and gather his vvheate into his garner but vvill burne vp the chaffe vvith vnquenchable fire I vnderstand not how you can of this place conclude that there
vntill I heare some proofe or authoritie to the contrarie Howbeit the waight of the cause lieth not vpon this text this is but one reason among diuerse Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. Sect. vlt. But M. Doctor heareth with his left eare and readeth with his lefte eye as though his right eye were pulled out or his right are cut of For otherwise the other wordes which they haue touching this matter might easily haue bene expounded by the argument and matter whiche they handle Io. Whitgifte How doth it then happen that you haue not salued the matter by setting downe theyr wordes and declaring how I haue mistaken them seyng you haue omitted that men may well thinke that this is not vttered of you in good earnest Now that you haue sayde all in this matter you must giue me leaue to let the Reader vnderstande what you haue lefte vntouched in my booke concerning the same whither it be bycause you consent vnto it or that you cannot answere it I referre to his discretion ¶ The profite of Reading Scriptures in the Churche Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 90. Sect. 5. 6. Pag. 91. Sect. 2. 3. Isidorus sayth that reading bringeth great profit to the hearers Isidorus Tertul. in Apologet Tertullian sayth when we come togither to the reading of the holy Scriptures we feede our fayth with those heauenly voyces we rayse vp our affiance we fasten our hope And agayne he calleth the reading of the Scriptures the feeding of our fayth But what neede I speake any more of a matter so manifest you atly ioyne Hardinges opinion of reading scripture with the Papiste in this for in the confutation of the Apologie of the Church of England M. Harding calleth reading of the Scriptures to the people in the Churche a spirituall dumbnesse and a thing Parte 5. and in the. 15. Arti. of the Replie vnprofitable c. That to reade the Scriptures in the Churche is no new thing but most auncient and grounded vpon Gods worde it is manifest by that which is written in the. 4. of Luke where the Euangelist sayeth that Christe on the Sabboth daye going into the Synagogue Luc. 4. according to his accustomed manner rose vp to read and there vvas deliuered vnto him the booke of the Prophete Esay and as soone as he opened the booke he founde the place vvhere it vvas vvritten Spiritus Domini super me c. The spirite of the Lorde vpon me c. Likewise in the thirtenth of the Actes we reade that Paule and other of his company beyng in the Synagogue on the Sabboth day was sent vnto by the rulers of the Sinagogue Post lectionem legis Prophetarum After the reading Ad. 13. of the lavve and the Prophetes To knowe if they would make any exhortation to the people Iustinus Martyr Apolog. 2. pro Christianis sayth that in his time the manner Iustinus Mar yr was on the Sabboth day vvhen the people vvere gathered togither to haue the scriptur s read in the publike congregation and in the time of publike prayer for the space of one vvhole hovver Origen writing vpon Iosua Homil. 15. sayeth that the bookes of the Orig n. olde Testament vvere deliuered by the Apostles to be read in the Churches Cyprian lib. 2. Epist. 5. sayeth The Reader soundeth out the high and Cyprian heauenly vvordes he readeth out the Gospell of Christe c. Chrysostome vpon the Actes Homil. 19. The minister and common minister standeth vp and crieth vvith a lovvde voyce saying Keepe silence Chrysostome Augustine after that the Reader beginneth the prophesie of Esay Augustine speaking to the people sayeth Yee heard vvhen the Gospell vvas read Ye heard erevvhyle vvhen it vvas read if ye gaue eare to the reading dearely beloued vve haue heard in the lesson that hath bene read Admonition And that this is not the feeding that Christe spake of the Scriptures are playne d For reading ministers vievv these places Mala. 2. 7. Esay 56. 10 Zach. 11. 15 at 15. 14. Tim. 3. 3 Reading is not feeding but it is as euill as playing vpon a stage and worse too for players yet learne theyr partes without booke and these a mayny of them can scarcely read within booke These are emptie feeders e Math. 6. 22 darke eyes f Math. 9. 38 〈◊〉 3. ill workemen to hasten in the Lordes haruest g Luc. 14. 17 messangers that can not cal h Mat. 23. 34 Prophers that can not declare the will of the Lord i Math. 5. 13 vnsauerie salt k Mat. 15. 14 blind guides l Isay. 36. 10 sleepie watchmen m Cor. 4. 1. Luc 16. 1. vntrustie dispensers of Gods secretes n 2. Tim. 2. 15 euill deuiders of the worde o 〈◊〉 1. 9. weake to withstande the aduersarie p 2. T 3. 15. 16. not able to confute And to conclude so farre from making the man of God perfect to all good workes that rather the quite contrarie may be confirmed Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 161. Sect. 2. 3. For reading ministers you bid vs viewe these places Mala. 2. vers 7. Esay 56. 10. Zachar. 11. 15. Matth. 15. 14. 1. Timoth. 3. 3. The Prophete Malachie in the seconde chapter and seuenth verse sayeth on this sorte For the Priestes lippes shoulde preserue knovvledge and they shoulde seeke the lavve at his mouthe For he is the messenger of the Lord of hostes In whiche wordes the Prophete doth signifie that the Priestes ought to be learned in the lawe and able to instruct which no man denieth and if there be any crepte into the ministerie whiche a not able so to do it is to be ascribed eyther to the negligence of t Bishop and such as haue to do therein or to the necessitie of the Reading is profitable t me But here is nothing spoken agaynst reading for any thing that I can gather and if any man shoulde come vnto me and demaunde of me any question touching the lawe of God I thinke I shoulde better satisfie him if I did reade the wordes of the lawe vnto him than if I should make a long tedious discourse of myne owne to litle or no purpose It is the worde it selfe that pearceth and mou th the conscience I speake not this agaynst interpreting of the Scriptures or preaching Pag. 162. Sect. 1. 2. for I know they be both necessary but agaynst such as be enimies to the reading of them The places in the. 56. of Esay and in the eleuenth of zacharie tende to the same purpose they all speake agaynst ignorant foolish slouthfull gouernours and pastours there is nothing in them that condemneth or disaloweth readyng of the Scriptures or reading of Prayers No more is there in the fiftenth of Matthew nor 1. Timo 3. reade the places and you shal soone see with how litle iudgement they be quoted agaynst such ministers
not come to suche perfection in this lyfe as they doe desyre But howe doe these places proue that Godfathers are not able to perfourme that which they promise for the infant Truely these proofes are to farre fetched for my vnderstanding In the ninth to the Romaines the Apostle sayth That it is not in him that vvilleth nor in him that runneth but in God that shevveth mercie In the which wordes he sheweth that the cause of our election is not in our selues but in the mercie of God But what is this to the promise of Godfathers made at the baptising of Infantes If you woulde haue a man to promise nothing but that which is in his power to perfourme then must you simplie condemne all promises made by man for there is nothing in his power to perfourme no not mouing of his foote not comming to dinner or supper c. Therefore as all other promises bee made Conditionall promises with these secrete conditions if God will so muche as lyeth in mee to the vttermoste of my power if I lyue c. So is the promise in baptisme made by the Godfathers likewise Io. Whitgifte There is nothing answered to this Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 107. Sect. 2. and Pag. 193. Sect. 1. It is also manifest by these authorities that Godfathers or suretyes were required at the baptising of Infantes which Tertullian also signifyeth in his booke de Baptismo But you your selfe Of Godfathers confesse Godfathers to be of great antiqnitie in the Churche of Christ for you say that Higinus brought them in and Higinus was the ninth Bishop of Rome and liued Anno. 141 Touching the last which you Rhetorically say you will speake nothing of that is the euill choyse of witnesses I thinke in part it is true but you speake that without the booke and therefore without my compasse of defense For I meane not to take vpon me the defense of any abuse within the booke if there be any muche lesse without the booke T. C. Pag. 135. Sect. 1. For Godfathers there is no controuersie betweene the Admonition and master Doctors booke which appeareth not onely in their corrections but plainly in the. 188. page where they declare that they rather condemne the abuse whilest it is vrged more than greater matters and which are in deede necessarie this being a thing arbitrarie and left to the discretion of the Church Godfathers allowed by T. C. and whylest there is so euill choyse for the most part of Godfathers which is expressedly mentioned of the Admonition and whilest it is vsed almost for nothing else but as a meane for one friende to gratifie an other without hauing any regarde to the solemne promise made before God and the congregation of seeing the childe brought vp in the nurture and feare of the Lorde For the thing it selfe considering that it is so generally receyued of all the Churches they doe not mislike of it Io. Whitgifte Peraduenture they are better aduised nowe than they were when they wrote the Admonition But it is good for the Reader to note that you make Godfathers a thing arbitrarie and left to the discretion of the Churche and yet was it inuented Godfathers allowed thogh brought in by Pope Higinus as the Authours of the Admonition say by Pope Higinus So that some thing belike of the Popes inuentions may remayne in the Churche thoughe the same bée not expressed in the worde of God Indéede this is the libertie that you chalenge to allowe what you list and disallowe at your pleasure all is perfect that you confirme of whome soeuer it was borrowed And why may not I say the same for interrogatories ministred to the Infant You adde this reason in the ende Considering it is so generally receyued of all Churches and yet page 18. you disallow Sainct Augustines The Replyer vnconstant Pag. 18. Sect. 7 rule tending to the same effect so that you may say and vnsay at your pleasure and no man say vnto you blacke is your eye or Domine cur ita facis Of Fontes and crossing in Baptisme Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 107. Sect. vlt. You may as well finde fault with Pulpit and Church as with Of fontes The Apostles baptised not in Basons the fontes and the reason is all one In the tyme of the Apostles they did not baptise in Basons as you doe nowe but in Riuers and other common waters neyther was there in the Apostles time any Churches for Christians or Pulpits to preache in and therefore you had best to plucke downe Churches and Pulpits and to baptise in common riuers and waters T. C. Pag. 135. Sect. 2. As for Fontes I haue spoken of before both particularly and in generall But whereas M. Doctor sayth in the Ipostles tymes they baptised in no Basons but in ryuers and common waters I would know whether there was a riuer or common water in Cornelius and in the Iaylers houses where Paule and Peter baptised Io. Whitgifte And I woulde also gladly learne howe you can proue that they did baptise in Basons there I doe not say that they alwayes baptised in Riuers and common waters but that they did so and that most commonly which no man can denie But I require one sillable in Scripture to proue that they did baptise in Basons not that I The replyer put to the proofe of his ceremonies disallowe it if tyme and place doe require but bycause I woulde haue you to performe that in your Ceremonies which you require in ours that is to proue them directly by the worde of God Chap. 3. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 108. Sect. 1. Touching crossing in baptisme I will onely recite vnto you the Of crossing in baptisme ucer opinion of M. Bucer which is this Signam hoc non tam quod est vsus in Ecclesijs antiquissimi quam quòd est admodùm simplex presentis admonitionis crucis Christi adbiberi nec indecens nec inutile existimo si adhibeatur modò purè intellectum religiose excipiatur nulla nec superstitione adiuncta nec elements seruitute nec lenitate aut vulgari consuetudine I thinke it neyther vncomely nor vnprofitable to vse the signe of the Crosse not onely bicause the vse therof is very auncient but also because it hath an expresse signification of the passion of Christ so that it be purely vnderstoode and religiously receyued vvithout any superstition or seruitude of the element or leuitie or common custome T. C. Pag. 135. Sect. 3. To proue crossing in Baptisme M. Bucers authoritie is brought I haue sayde before what iniurie it is to leaue the publike workes of Bucer and to flie vnto the Apochryphas wherein also they might driue vs to vse the like and to set downe likewise his wordes whiche we finde in his priuate letters But it is first of all to be obserued of the reader howe and
if I do not who hath taught you to speake vntruly my woordes I haue expressed lette the Reader consider of them and here also take a note of your truth and honestie Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. Afterwardes he sayeth that for so much as this place hath bene vsed to proue a Pastor or Bi hop in euery churche therefore it cannot be vsed to proue these Elders so that sayeth he there must needes be eyther a contradiction or else a falsification The place is rightly alleaged for both he one and the other and yet neyther contradiction to themselues nor falsification of the place but onely a miste before M. Doctors eyes which will not let him see a playne and euident truth which is the worde Elder is generall and comprehendeth both those Elders which teach and gouerne and those which gouerne onely as hath bene shewed out of S. Paule Io. Whitgifte If it had these two significations as I haue proued that it hath not yet that it is so taken in the. 14. of the Actes I cannot reade in any writer and I haue shewed M. Caluines and M. Brentius iudgements to the contrary whiche in any wise mans opinion are able to counteruayle your credite and bare deniall And surely in that place it cannot be taken but in one and the selfe same signification except you will say that the spirit of God speaketh ambiguously and vseth aequiuocations Which were to derogate much from the simplicitie and plainenesse of the Scriptures Wherefore the Authors of the Admonition in alleaging that text in some place to proue the election of Pastors and in some other place to proue the office of Seniors speake they know not what and dally with the Scriptures euen as you do in like manner when you take vpon you the defense of so manifest a contradiction Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 114. Sect. 1. In the. 1. Corin. 12. S. Paule sayeth that God hath ordeyned in the Go rnours in the church Church first Apostles then Prophetes thirdly teachers then them that do miracles after that the giftes of healing helpers gouernours diuersities of tongues here is not one worde of the office of Seniors neyther yet of their names for this worde gouernours teacheth vs that Christ hath ordeyned in his church some to beare rule gouerne but whether one in euery congregation or moe whether ministers of the worde or other whether Magistrates or Seniors it is not here expressed howsoeuer it is it maketh nothing for your purpose T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. And whereas M. Doctor sayth that the place of the Corinths may be vnderstanded of ciuill 1. Co. 12. Magistrates of preaching ministers of gouernours of the (*) A manif st vntruthe for there is no such thing affir ed. whole Churche and not of euery particular Churche and finally any thing rather than that whereof it is in dee e vnderstanded I say first that he still stumbleth at one stone whiche is that he can not put a difference betweene the Churche and common wealth and so betweene the Churche offycers whiche he there speaketh of and the offycers of the common wealth those whiche are cclesiasticall and those whiche are ciuill Then that he meaneth not the minister whiche preacheth it may appeare for that he had noted them before in the worde teachers and last of all he can not meane gouernour of the whole Church onlesse he shoulde meane Pope if he will say he meaneth an Archbishop which gouerneth a whole Prouince besides that it is a bolde speeche without all warrant I haue shewed before that the worde of God alloweth of no suche office and therefore it remayneth that it muste be vnderstanded of this office of Elders Io. Whitgifte Héere haue you manyfestly fals yed my booke and greatly abused me For I haue not these wordes of gouernours of the whole Church and not of euery particular Churche neyther any thing sounding that way the Reader hath my wordes before his eyes let him consider whether you haue reported them truely or no. Surely if there were nothing else your ofte leasings might sufficiently conuince your doctrine of méere vanitie and forgerie But to returne to your Replie First I can not put any suche difference betwixte the Churche and a Christian common wealth the Church officers and christian Magistrates that they may not be comprehended vnder this worde vsed in this place by the Apostle For I vtterly renounce that distinction inuented by Papistes and maynteyned by you whiche is that Christian The Papists opinion of christian Magistrates Magistrates doe gouerne not in the respect they be Christians but in the respecte they be men and that they gouerne Christians not in that they be Christians but in that they be men Whiche is to giue no more authoritie to a Christian Magistrate in the Church of Christ than to the great Turke I am fully persuaded therefore that there is no suche distinction betwixte the Churche of Christ and a Christian common wealthe as you and the Papistes dreame of And therefore there is no cause why th Apostl maye not in this place vnder this worde Gouernours comprehende as well ciuill Magistrates as ecclesiasticall The whiche notwithstanding I doe not determinately affirme as likewise I haue not done in myne Answere for I would be glad to learne and to heare some reason to the contrarie Master Gualter seemeth to auour this opinion for expounding this place he sayth He comprehendeth seuenthly Gualter in Cor. 12. in this order gouernours vnder whome are conteyned ciuill persons whiche in worldly matters dyd ayde all men and had the hearing of causes if any fell out amongst the Christians And a little after There is no neede of suche publikely nowe a dayes seeing there are christian Magistrats by whose authoritie all these thinges may be better prouided for Moreouer the Apostle may meane in that place Bishops or Pastors of whome he made no mention before For you will not haue the office of a Pastor of a Doctor confounded wherefore you forget your selfe in saying that in this worde teachers he meaneth the minister that teacheth that is the Pastor for of him I am sure you meane Last of all I haue no where sayde that he meaneth one gouernour of the whole Church neyther haue I written one worde tending to that ende but this I say agayne whether the Apostle meaneth one ruler in euery congregation or mo is not héere determined and I sée no cause as I haue sayde whye in this place of th Apostle thys word Gouernours may not eyther signifie the Christian Magistrates o Ecclesiasticall as Archbishops Bishops or whatsoeuer other by lawfull authoritie are appoynted in the Churche neyther is there any reason to be shewed why he shoulde rather meane your Seniors than any other Magistrates Sure I am that there be learned men whiche thinke that the Apostle in this worde dothe comprehende Ecclesiae
the cōmon wealth the ci ill Magistrate the ecclesiasticall as you do throughout your whole booke it is no mar ell though you thinke No more authoriti 〈◊〉 ed to a ch istian Magistrate tha t the Turke the office of Seniors to be perpetuall For you giue no more authoritie to a Christian Magistrate in ecclesiasticall gouernment thā you would do to the Turke if you were vnder him And therfore according to your platforme the gouernment of the Church is all one vnder a christian Magistrate and vnder the great Turke But to l aue the Admonition what haue you spoken of the office of Seniors which is not eyther proper to the Pastor or cōmon to all Christians or such as may be much better brought to passe by the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate than by the ignorance simplicitie and rudenesse of the most of your Seniors But first let vs heare more of your 〈◊〉 before we come to vtter the absurditie of your cause Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 140. in the midst But I will yet come nearer That without the which the principall offices of charitie cannot be exercised is necessarie and alwayes to be kept in the Churche but the office of Auncients Elders are such as without which the principall offices of charitie can not be exercised therfore it followeth that this office is necessarie That the principal offices of charitie cannot be exercised without this order of Auncients it may appeare for that he which hath faulted and amēdeth not after he be admonished once pri ately and then before one witnesse or two cānot further be proceeded against Math. 18. according to the commaundement of our sauiour Christ onlesse there be in the Church Auncients d Elders therfore this principal office of charitie which tendeth to the amendment of him which hath not pr̄ofited by those two former admonitions can not be exercised without them For it is commaunded of our sauiour Christ that in such a case when a brother doth not proffite by these two warnings it should be tolde the Church Now I would aske who be ment by the Church heere if he say by the Church are ment al y e people then I will aske how a man can conueniently complayn to all the whole congregation or how can the whole congregation conueniently meete to decide of this matter I do not denie but the people haue an interest in the excommunication as shal be noted hereafter bu the matter is not so farre come for he must first refuse to obey the admonition of the Church or euer they can proceede so farre Wel if it be not the people that be ment by the Church who is it I heare M. Doctor say it is the Pastor but if he will say so speake so straungely he must warrant it with some other places of scripture where the Church is takē for one which is as much to say as one man is many one member is a body one alone is a companie And besides this strangenesse of speech it is cleane contrary to the meaning of our sauiour Christ and destroyeth the soueraintie of the medicine which our sauiour Christ prepared for such a festred sore as would neyther be healed with priu te admonition neyther w t admonition before one or two witnesses For as y e fault groweth so our sauior Christ would haue the nūber of those before whō he shuld be checked rebuked likewise grow Therfore from a priuate admonition he riseth vnto the admonitian before two or three from thē to the church which if we should say it is but one then to a dangerouser wound should be layd an easier plaster therfore our sauiour doth not rise from two to one for that were not to rise but to fall nor to proceede but to go backwarde but to many Seeing then that the church here is neyther the whole congregation nor the pastor alone it followeth that by the churche here he meaneth the pastor with the Auncients or Elders Or else whom can he meane And as for this maner of speech wherin by the church is vnderstanded the chiefe gouernours and Elders of the church it is oftentimes vsed in the olde Testament from the which our sauiour borrowed this maner of speaking as in Exodus it is sayd that Moses wrought his miracles before y e 4. chap. people when mention is made before onely of the Elders of the people whome Moses had called togither And most manifestly in Iosue where it is sayd that he that killed a man at vnwates shall 0. chap. returne vnto the citie vntill he stand before the congregation to be iudged Where by the congregation he meaneth the gouernours of the congregation for it did not appertayne to all to iudge of this case Likewise in the Cronicles and diuers other places nd therefore I conclude that for so 1. li. 13. cha muche as those be necessarie and perpetuall which are spoken of in those words tell the Churche and that vnder those words are comprehended the Elders or Auncients that the Elders auncients be necessarie and perpetuall officers in the churche Io. Whitgifte Héere are many words without matter a great thing pretended to no purpose for the principal offices of charitie both hath bin may be wel exercised without your Seniors Dic ecclesiae interpreted the place Mat. 18. doth in no respect proue the contrarie For it only teacheth an order howe to procéede charitably in priuate offences not in publike as I haue shewed before Moreouer to tel the Church is eyther publikly to reproue those that haue bin priuately in that maner admonished wil not repent or else to complayne vnto such as haue authoritie in the Churche according to that which I sayde before of this place in my Answere to y e Admonition And héerein you ioyne with me in that you take the Church there for the chief gouernours of the Church though we differ in y e persōs Church for the gouernors of the church For you will haue it onely ment of the Pastor Seniors and I thinke it signifieth more generally any which are lawfully appoynted to gouerne the church But whether it be one or more that hath this authoritie committed vnto him it is more to tell him than it is to tell twentie besides because he béeing in authoritie doth beare the office of a publike Magistrate who hath power publikely to correct that whiche was priuately cōmitted and therfore he that telleth one suche may wel be sayd to tell the Church bicause he telleth such a one as hath authoritie in the Church and is a publike person So that he riseth from priuate admonition to open complaint from priuate witnesses to a publike Magistrate and therfore this is to rise not to fal to procede not to goe backwarde But admit that mo than one is vnderstanded by the name of the Church whiche I also confesse yet doth it
especially séeing that Ambrose Hieronis auncient denieth the same to haue bin in his tyme. But if hauing one onely testimonie and that making nothing for your purpose but agaynst you rather bicause it establisheth Collegiate Churches which you would gladly throwe downe then M. Doctors knowledge in thys matter is more than you can with all your loftie spéeches immodest words obscure I haue alleaged so muche of Ambrose faythfully aud truely as proueth that which I alleage him for Neyther haue I left out one worde that maketh agaynst that my purpose for if you remember your selfe you can not but sée and vnderstande that I only alleage Ambrose to proue that there was sometime a Seigniorie but yet dissolued and abrogated before his time If that whiche followeth in Ambrose disproue this then in déede you may say that eyther I am abused or desire to abuse other But if it nothing derogate from my intent and purpose then why do you falsly charge me or why picke you a quarel agaynst me for omitting that which neyther doth me harme nor good Disproue any thing by any words of Ambrose that I haue alleaged Ambrose for if you can if you can not then temper your immoderate spéeches frame them according to the truthe If Ambrose so misliked y e abrogating of this Seigniorie why did he not labour to restore it agayne surely if it had bin a matter so necessarie he béeing so godly and zelous a Bishop would neuer haue suffered his Church to be spoyled of it but it is euident by his words that it had not bin in practise long time before Chap. 2. the. 27. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. Now that I haue shewed the place I will say no more I will leaue it to M. Doctor to think of it in his chamber by himselfe and so will conclude this question that for so much as this order is such as without which the principall offices of charitie can not be exercised and that whyche is commaunded by the scriptures approued and receyued by all the Churches in the Apostles tymes and many hundred yeres after in the most florishing churches both in time of peace and in time of persecution and that there are greater causes why it shoulde be in the time of peace than in tyme of persecution why rather vnder a christian prince than vnder a tyrant why rather nowe than in the Apostles tymes that in consideration of these things the Eldership is necessarie and suche an order as the Churche ought not be without Io. Whitgifte It forceth not greatly whether you say any more of it or no for as it nothing hindreth my purpose so winneth it no credite vnto yours And for asmuch as the Church may muche better be gouerned and the principall offices of charitie much better exercised by the ciuil Magistrate than by these Seniors and séeing that this kinde of gouernment is neyther commaunded in the scriptures nor practised in the Church as a kinde of gouernment not to be altered séeing also that it bringeth in confusion derogateth from that authoritie that God hath giuen to the ciuil Magistrate howsoeuer it hath héeretofore bin vsed yet is there no cause why it should nowe or at any tyme vnder Christian Princes be of necessitie reteyned Chap. 2. the. 28. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. And so also is answered the thirde question that for so muche as they were Churche officers a The place Heb. 13. is quoted only for the phrase for it pro ueth nothing in question and ouer the people in matters perteyning to God and such as watched ouer the soules of men a Heb. 13. that therfore although they were not Pastors to preache the word yet were they no lay men as they terme them but ecclesiasticall persons Io. Whitgifte M. Beza in an Epistle that is prefixed before the confession of the Churches in Beza Hel tia speaking of the Seigniorie sayth that there must be a great consideration had that Princes and noble men and suche as haue authoritie and preheminence in the Churche be chosen to be of the Seigniorie and will you make noble men and Princes ecclesiasticall persons and suche as must watche ouer the soules of men in déede those that be called Presbyteri in the Scriptures be Ecclesiasticall persons for they be ministers of the worde and Sacraments And M. Caluine Institut cap. 8. sect 52. Caluine sayth that all the Seniors were ministers of the worde His words be these Habebant ergo singulae Ciuitates Presbyterorū collegium qui pastores erant Doctores nam apud populū munus docendi exhortandi corrigendi quod Paulus Episcopis iniungit OMNES obibant for euery Citie had a Colledge of Seniors which were Pastors and teachers for they dyd all exercise among the people the offyce of teaching exhorting and correcting which Paule dothe inioyne to Bishops But howe can you make your Seniors ecclesiasticall séeing your Seigniorie must consist of noble men gentlemen marchauntmen husbandmen handycraftesmen as Taylors Shomakers Carpenters c. euen suche as the most part of the Parish will choose Chap. 2. the. 29. Diuision Admonition Then the sentence was tempred according (h) 1. Ti. 1. 20. to the notoriousnesse of the fact Nowe on the one 〈◊〉 eyther hatred agaynst some persons carrieth men headlong into rash and cruell iudgement or else fauour affection or money mitigateth the rigour of the same and all this commeth to passe bicause the regiment lefte of Christ (i) Mat. 18. 7. 1. Co. 12. 28 Rom. 12. 8. 1. Ti. 5. 17. Act. 15. 2. 4 6. 22. 23. to his Churche is committed into one mans hands whome alone it shall be more easie for the wicked by bribing to peruert than to ouerthrow the fayth pietie of a zelous and godly companie for suche maner of men in deede (k) Exod. 18. 21 Deut. 1. 13. should the Seniors be Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 130. Sect. vlt. Pag. 131. 132. Pag. 133. Lin. vlt. Pag. 134. Sect. 1. You say all this commeth to passe bicause the regiment left of Christ to his Church is committed vnto one mans hands and for the proofe of this you note in the margent the. 18. of Mat. the. 12. of the first to the Corin. the. 12. to the Rom. the. 5. of the first to Timoth. the. 15. of the Acts whiche places beeing examined let the discrete Reader iudge howe aptly they serue for your purpose In the. 18. of Math. Christ sayeth on this sort If thy brother trespasse agaynst thee go and tell him his fault betvveene him and thee alone c. In the which place it is by the consent of all interpreters manifest that Christe prescribeth a rule of correcting priuate and secrete sinnes and not of suche as be open and knowne to others For he would not haue pryuate and secrete sinnes blased abroad publikely reprehended before the partie offending be in this order
had your warning The placing of one name for another is not so great an ouersight but that it may somtime happen to those which are verie circumspect and euen vnto your selfe as Iosias for Ezechias in the beginning * and Gregorie for George afterwarde so that herein you are not inferiour to me and the Pag. 97. Sect. 3 Ambrose one may well be set agaynst the other But let these tryfles go it is Ambrose in his booke de Officijs cap. 27. whose wordes be these Let the Bishop vse the Clearkes and especially the Ministers which are indeede his sonnes as his owne members let him assigne euerie one to that office whereunto he shall see him to be meete The part also of the bodie which putrifyeth is with griefe cut off and it is long looked vnto if it can be cured with medicines ▪ but if it cannot thē is it cut away by a good Phisition So it is the propertie of a good Bishop that he be desirous to heale the weake to take away sores that creepe on to burne some and not to cut them away last to cut away with griefe that which cannot be cured Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Page 148. in the ende of the. 1 Sect. To the rest I will answere with this pratestation that if all men shoulde doe contrarie to the order of God yet their authoritie or 〈◊〉 ght not to haue the weight of a feather which I haue sayd before and do vnderstand it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where I do not expresse it and with this I come to master Doctors authorities Io. Whitgifte This I acknowledge to be true ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you make this protestation before there be cause Whē any authoritie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to the order of God reiect it and spare not but yet you must shew vs that 〈◊〉 of God to the which it is trarie ▪ Chap. 1. the. 13. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 113. Lin. 5. Theodorus alone excommunicated Theodorete Bishop of Laodicea did by himselfe alone excommunicate both Appolinaries for keeping companie with that wicked Sophister Epiphanius as Sozomenus writeth Lib. 6. cap. 25. T. C. Pag. 148. Sect. 2. As for Theodoretus Bishop of Laodicea which Sozomene maketh mention of in his sixth booke I finde none such but there is mentioned of one Theodotus who is sayde to haue separated or excommunicated Apollinaris but it doth not appeare there that he alone of his owne authoritie did excommunicate him And there be great reasons in that Chapter to proue that he did it not of his owne authoritie for immediately after his heresie was knowne Damasus bishop of Rome and Peter Bishop of Alexandria caused a Synode to be gathered at Rome where his heresie was condemned Now for so much as the custome of Synodes and Councelles is when they condemne the heresies to excommunicate the heretikes (*) You vnderstand not the storie for at this time Apollinaris was not fallen into his heresie it is to be thought that that Councell did excommunicate him and that Theodotus Bishop of Laodicea did execute that decree and excommunication And in deed Sozomene doth so expound himselfe when immediately after he had sayd that he did excōmunicate him (a) Vntruth for these wordes are not spoken of Theodorus but of Georgius his 〈◊〉 who excomunicated Apollinaris the seconde 〈◊〉 he addeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is that he declared him excommunicate whiche indeede properly belongeth to the Minister when the excommunication is decreed by those to whome it apperteyneth which thing may yet better appeare by the maner of speach which is vsed in another place where speaking of Uictor excōmunicating Theodotus he vttereth it by this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is to promulgate or pronounce the sentence whiche was decreed by others Io. Whitgifte Sozomene in that Chapter doth plainly declare that both the Apollinaries were Both the Apollinaries excommunicated by Theodotus excommunicated by Theodotus not for any heresie but bicause they kept companie with Epiphanius that wicked Sophister Neyther was Apollinaris as yet fallen to his heresie as it is manifest in the storie for being vpon repentance absolued by Theodotus he was afterwarde againe excommunicated by one George the successor of Theodotus in his Bishoprike bicause he kept companie with Athanasius whome George being an Arrian coulde not abide In this time of his excommunication bycause he could not by any intreatie perswade George to receyue him into the Church againe of purpose he published an heresie for the which he was afterwarde condemned Sozom. lib. 6. Cap. 25. in a Synode at Rome And therefore sayth the storie If George had receyued Apollinaris being repentant like as Theodotus had done before I suppose that this heresie had not bene raysed of him So that you are farre wyde and giue great suspition that eyther you haue not read the storie or else of purpose meane to delude the Reader The wordes that the storie vseth to signifie Theodotus excommunicating them be these 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did separate them from the Church The wordes which you haue recyted be not spoken of Theodotus but of George his successor who also did excommunicate Apollinaris not both the father and the sonne as Theodotus did but onely the sonne as I haue sayde before he fell into his heresie and therefore before he was condemned at Rome So that he did not as you say execute the decrée of that Councell but did himselfe excommunicate Neyther doe the wordes helpe you one whitte by any meanes for what other thing can you gather thereof but that he pronounced the sentence of excommunication agaynst him euen as it is the maner in our Church though he be excommunicated by the same person onely which pronounceth the sentence And if that the right of excommunication had not béene in George onely why is there mention that hée woulde by no meanes be intreated to absolue him For I am sure that you will Pag. 147. lin 29. graunt and indéede you haue before so affirmed that absolution is of the same qualitie in this respect with excommunication and it is there witnessed that Apollinaris did oftentymes desire him to receyue him againe into the felowship of the Churche So that it is manifest that in those dayes the Bishop alone did excommunicate Chap. 1. the. 14. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 113. Lin. 9. Ambrose excōmunicated So did Ambrose excommunicate Theodosius the Emperour and is therefore in all stories greatly commended T. C. Pag. 148. in the ende As for Ambrose although he be greatly commended for excommunicating the Emperour yet he was neuer commended for that he did excommunicate him himselfe alone and if he did excommunicate him himselfe alone yet his fault was the lesse for somuch as he beeing desirous of an Eldership could not as it seemeth by his complaint which I haue spoken of before obteyne one And although the stories do not make mention that there were others whose
disciplinae seuera misericordia necessaria est nam consilia separationis inania sunt perniti sa atque sacrilega quia impia superba fiunt plus perturbant infirmos bonos quà m corrigunt animosos malos Verily if the contagion of synne hath infected the multitude the seuere mercie of godlie discipline is necessarie for the purpose of separation is both vaine pernicious and sacrilegious bicause they are bothe wicked and presumptuous and doe more trouble the good that be weake than correcte or amend the euill that be stubborne Sainct Augustine doth not here alleadge this for a cause that sufficiente voyces can not be obteyned for excommunication as you pretende but he thinketh Excommunication to be altogether in vayne where the infection is generall But that it maye further appeare the doctrine that I affirme touchyng the authoritie Ex mmunication by bishops proued by the practise of the primi churche of Bishops in excommunicating to be true and to haue bene the vsuall practise of the Churche in the beste tyme and state of it I thoughte good in thys place to adde to my former testimonyes and answeres the authoritie of certaine Councels wherin the practyse of the Churche doth euidentely shew it selfe And fyrst to begynne with the Canons attributed to the Apostles and so ofte alleadged by T. C. In the. 32. or as it is in some bookes the. 33. of those Canons it is thus decréed Can. Apost 32. If any Priest or Deacon bee excommunicated of his Bishop it maye not bee lawfull for any other to receiue him but only the partie that hath separated him except that Bishop dye whiche hath excommunicated him in this Canon power to excommunicate and also to absolue is in plaine wordes committed to the Bishop alone The fifte Canon of the Councell of Nice speaketh of this matter in these wordes Con. Nicae can 5. Concernyng those that are separated from the Communion be they Clearkes or lay menne by the Bishops whiche are in euerie prouince Lette the sentence stande according to the canon whych doth pronounce those that are eiected of some not to be admitted of other But lette it bee examined whether the parties be excommunicated through the indignation or contention or frowardnesse of the Bishop and for this cause that the examination may be duly had let there be in euerie Prouince a Synode celebrated twice in the yeare The wordes be manyfeste and what néede suche pr sion for to examine the dooings of the Bishoppe if hée hadde not authoritie to Excommunicate alone The sixte Canon of the Councell of Antic he is this If any man hath bene excommunicated Con. Anti ch Can. 6. of his owne Bishop lette him not bee receyued of any other before he bee absolued of his owne Bishop or shall defende himselfe in a Synode and the Synode beeing persuaded receyue an other sentence The same decree is to bee obserued agaynst laye men and Priests and Deacons and those that be in the number of the Cleargie Why shoulde the Councell saye ee that is excommunicated of his owne Bishop c. if the authoritie and power of excommunicatyng did not belong to the Bishop alone In the seconde Councell of Carthage Canon 8. it is lykewyse determined That Con. Carthag 2. can 8. if a Priest beyng excommunicated or punished by his owne Bishop shall presume to celebrate he shall be accurssed In the sixte Councell of Carthage Can. 10. the same is affirmed Con. Carthag 6. can 10. In the Councell holden at Sardica Can. 13. or as it is in s me ookes 16. it is in lyke manner decréed That if a De con or a Priest or any of the leargie be excommunicated Con. Sardic Can. 13. of his owne Bishop and shall flee to an other Bishop vnderstanding that he is excommunicated of his owne Bishop he may not giue vnto hym the communion dooyng therby iniurie to his brother and fellowe Bishop By all these Canons and auncient Councels it is euident that from time to time euen in the best and purest state of the church Bishops alone haue had authoritie to excommunicate And least T. C. shoulde here flée to his olde shifte and newly deuised distinction The Bishop did excommunicate alone not as rator of the action that this is attributed to the Bishop bycause he was the chiefe of the action and did moderate it and not bycause the authoritie and power of excommunicatyng remayned in him alone althoughe the manyfest woordes of the Councells ouer ▪ throwe it and it is not to be iustifyed by any learning or good authoritie yet that the Con. Sard. Reader may the better vnderstande the vanitie of it I will recite the. 14. Canon or can 14. as it is in some bookes the. 17. canon of this Councell of Sardica wherein it dothe plainly appeare that the Bishop alone did excommunicate The canon is this If there shall be founde a Bishop prone to anger which ought not to be in such a man and being soone moued against a Priest or a Deacon shall caste him out of the churche or excommunicate him it must be foreseene that he be nor rashly condemned and excommunicated therfore lette him that is cast out haue libertie to complain to the Metropolitane of the same Prouince if he be absent then to the next Bishop c. and that Bishop which hath iustly or vniustly secluded him must be contente to haue his doings examined and his sentence either confirmed or corrected c. What néed these affections be seared in the Bishop if he could not excōmunicate without the consent of a Seigniorie or of the people For the Seigniorie might wel inough withstand this his hastynesse Wherfore it is playne that the Bishop alone may excommunicate But yet to cutte off all further cauilling I woulde haue you to vnderstande that I doo not so giue the authoritie of Excommunicating to the Bishop alone The authoritie of excommunication ascrided to the Byshop not in nite but l ces or to any one manne that I thynke hée maye excommunicate when he lyste withoute iuste cause and due proofe of the same my meanyng is not to make hym bothe accuser aud Iudge I doe not thinke that he oughte to excommunicate any before the partie be orderly and lawfully conuicted of suche crime or crimes as are to be punished by that Censure And that you maye knowe that I affirme nothing herein but the verie same that Saincte Augustine hath affirmed before me The practise in Augustins time and to the intente the worlde maye sée that my opinion in this poynte is not straunge or voyde of sufficiente authoritie I will sette downe his woordes as I fynde them in his booke De vtilitate necessitate poenitentiae and reported of Beda in Augustinus To. 10. ho. 50. his Commentaries vpon the fyrste Corinth 5. Althoughe some thinges be true yet the iudge muste not beleeue them vnlesse they bee sufficiently
sufficient to ground any certaine doctrine vpon being of faith and of saluation as you haue saide before the kinde of gouernment to be Wherefore it is you that disturbe and seeke to ouerthrow the order of gouernment appointed by God and therefore in the end you must looke to be ouerthrowen your selfe To your imagination of transforming simple vnap and vnlearned men to an aptnesse and 〈◊〉 of gouernment if your platforme were placed I will only answere that which Master Bullinger did to a fantasse of the Anabaptists not much vnlike You imagine and conceyue in your minde those things which neuer haue beene nor are extant and shall neuer hereafter be Chap. 2. the. 10. Diuision Admonition The nintéenth What should we speake of the Archbishops Court sith all men know it and your wisdome cannot but see what it is As all other Courtes are subiect to this by the Popes To proue that the regiment of the Church should be spirituall ade ph 1. 23. 1. Thes. 5. 13 1. Tim. 1. 2. Heb. 10. 30 〈◊〉 yea and by statute of this Realme yet vnxepealed so is it the filthie quaue ire poysoned plash of all the abhominations that do infect the whole Realme We speake not of licences graunted out of this Court to marrie in forbidden tymes as in Lent in Aduent in the gang week when ban ers and belles with the Priest in his surplesse singing Gospels and making crosses raungeth about in many places vpon the ember dayes and to forbidden persons in exempt places We make no mention of licences to eate white meate and flesh in Lent and that with a safe conscience for rich men that can buy them with mony nor we say nothing how dearly men pay for them s for dispensations with beneficed voyes tollerations for non reudents bulles to haue two benefices to haue three to haue more and as many as they list or can get these are so common that all godly and good men are compelled with griefe of heart to crie out vpon such abhominations We omit excommunication for money absolution for the same and that by absoluing one for another which how contrarie it is to the Scriptures the complaints of many learned men by propositions in open scholes proposed by wrytings in printed bookes set out and by preaching in open 〈◊〉 haue bene sufficiently witnessed To conclude this ilthie Court hath full power togither with the authoritie of this pettie Pope Metropolitane and primate of all England to dispence in all causes wherein the Pope was wont to dispence vnder which are conteyned more cases and causes than we are able to recken As for my Lordes grace of Yorke we deale not with him We referre him to that learned Epistle which Beza wrote vnto him about these matters Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 228. Sect. 1. 2. pag. 229. I thinke this Court to be necessarie for the state of this Church and Realme and if there be abuses in it either in the law it selfe or in the persons I wish it were reformed But the whole order of the Court is not therefore to be condemned no more than it is of other Courts which cannot be missed and yet haue abuses in them I confesse my selfe to haue little experience in such matters and therefore I will speake the lesse thereof As I do mislike that there should be any time forbidden to marry in for that can haue no good meaning or any dispensations for boyes to keepe benefices or excommunications and absolutions for money for one man to be absolued for another and if there be any other such like abuse so do I vtterly condemne your vnseemely and vnchristian termes as filthie quauemire poysoned plash of al abhominatiōs filthie Court especially cōsidering wherof they be spoken to whom and by whom they argue a scolding nature a stomack boyling with contempt of lawes The Church aundered by the Admonitors superiors Neither can I suffer you to slaunder not that Court but this Church with manifest vntruthes as you do when you say that banners belles and making of crosses be allowed to be vsed in the gangweeke and that the Archbishops court hath full power to dispence in all causes wherin the Pope was wont to dispence which both be most vntrue I thinke in dispensations this Court goeth no further than the lawes of the Realme do permit Agreeable to this spirit is your cōtemtuous speach vsed to both the Archbishops mē to be reuerēced not only in the respect of their yeres and authoritie but of their singular wisdome grauitie learning and sound religion also Howbeit you reuerence them as you do all other that be in authority except some whome you do but seeke to vse to bring your intentes to passe I will say no more I thinke you haue abused maister Beza with your false reportes Beza and others used by salse information which hath caused him to write otherwise than he woulde do if he knewe the whole state of the controuersie So you haue also abused other notable learned men and caused them to wryte according to yourfansie which since that time beeing truely informed haue by their letters which are to be seene both condemned your cōtentiousnesse and their owne to much credulitie But our faith and Church dependes neither vpon M. Beza nor any other man neither do they looke for any such prerogatiue But still you are without the booke T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. 1. In the. 228. page he thinketh the Archbishops Court necessarie but bringeth no reason and further confesseth himselfe ignorant of the estate of it and therefore I know not from whence that good opinion of his should come vnlesse it be from thence that he liketh of al things be they neuer so euill which the Admonition misliketh The rest which M. Doctor hath of this matter is nothing else but great and high wordes And as for the Canon law it is knowne what a stroke it beareth with vs and that a few cases excep ed it remayneth in his former effect Io. Whitgifte I haue shewed better reasons for it than you haue done agaynst it as yet For it 〈◊〉 made 〈◊〉 e ouerthrowne but by very strōg reasons is a reason for me sufficient that the Court is established by the authoritie of the Prince and the whole Realme and fit it is that very strong reasons should be vsed before this reason be reiected For in matters of gouernment place must be giuen to the gouernors law makers and to the state except there can be shewed inuincible reasons to the contrarie whereof you haue not in this place vttered one Of Deacons and Wydowes Tract 19. Of the office of Deacons Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. 2. It was before shewed that of the gouernors of the Church there were some whose charge perteyned vnto the whole Church of the which we haue spoken some other whose charges extend but to a part of the Church that is
his appoyntment himselfe sitting as moderator and this was in a matter of fayth But be it as you say though I can finde no suche thing in the firste Action of that Councell dothe it followe that bycause Emperours cōfirmed ordinaunces that were made in Synodes and Councelles therefore they haue no authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall lawes surely I vnderstande not howe you can make any suche conclusion for as I sayde before it is a poynt of greate wisedome and singular care to prouide that weightie matters in controuersie be determined with great deliberation and aduise of suche as be most skilfull in them But this can be no argument to proue that Ciuill Magistrates may make no orders in the Churche or Ecclesiasticall Lawes for euen those orders and lawes whiche were made in suche Councels were made by the authoritie of the Emperour as dothe very well appeare in the same Councels for when the matters were concluded in the Councell of Chalcedon the Bishops brust out into these voyces It is a true and a right iudgement long lyfe to the Senate many Conc. Chalced ▪ Euagr lib. 2. cap. 4. yeares to the Emperour Whereby it appeareth that the chiefe authoritie in suche Councels was giuen to the Emperour and that he was esteemed as the chiefe iudge which appeareth also at large in the seconde booke of Euagrius The. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. 2. The practise of this he mighte haue also moste playnely seene in Ambrose who woulde by 5. Lib. epist. 2. no meanes suffer that the causes of the Churches should be debated in the Princes consistorie or Another reason of the Papists agaynst the authoritie of the ciuil magistrate courte but would haue them handled in the Churche by those that had the gouernment of the Churche and therefore excuseth himselfe to the Emperour Ualentiman for that beyng conuented to answere of the church matters vnto the ciuill courte he came not Io. Whitgifte This is an other of M. Hardinges reasons agaynst the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall matters and he vsed it against the Apologie but the answere made to the same in the defense of the Apologie by that reuerende Father 6. Parte 14. Chap. 5. Diuision the Bishop of Sarisburie is learned and true the summe whereof is this The Emperour Ualentinian at that tyme when Ambrose wrote this Epistle vnto him was very yong he was not yet baptized he knewe not the principles of Christes Why Ambrose refused to come at the Emperours commaundement Religion he was an Arian Heretike he woulde haue thruste out the Christians and placed Heretikes in their Churches he thought it was lawfull for him to do what him listed c. For this cause Ambrose refused him to be his iudge so that he did not mislike his authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall but onely his wilfull ignorance and his tyrannie for that he knewe his iudgement was corrupted and not indifferent And if you had marked the beginning of his Epistle you might haue perceyued that he alleageth for his chiefe defense and excuse for not appearing the decrée of Theodosius the Father of Ualentinian so that in not comming or appearing at the Emperours summon he did but challenge the priuiledge graunted before of godly Emperours vnto the Cleargie And it is euident that the learned and auncient Fathers haue committed the The auncient Fathers haue committed the deciding of controuersies to Emperours deciding of matters of controuersie to Emperours as it appeareth in Athanasius his seconde Apologie where he committing himselfe and his cause to the Emperour sayeth thus VVe require that the Emperours moste godly and most religious Maiestie may haue the hearyng of the same matter before whome we may open both our churches right and also our owne for we hope that his godlinesse vnderstanding our reasons will Athanasius Apol. 2. neuer condemne vs. Likewise S. Augustine Contra Epist Parme. Lib. 1. speakyng to the Donatistes August contra epist. Parmen lib. 1. sayeth Is it not lawfull for the Emperour or his deputie to giue sentence in a matter of religion wherefore then went your Ambassadoures to the Emperour why made they him iudge of their cause Sozomene Lib. 4. Cap. 16. sayeth that the Emperour commaunded that tenne Bishops Sozom. lib. 4. 16. of the East and ten of the VVeste chosen by the Councell shoulde repayre to his courte and open to him the decrees of the Councell that he might not only consider whether they were agreed according to the Scriptures but that he might further determine and conclude what were best to be done Socrates Lib. 5. Cap. 10. sayeth that Theodosius the Emperour for the appeasing Socrat. lib. 5. cap. 10. of contention cōmaunded an assemblie of Bishops best learned to appeare before him and eche parte to write a confession of their faith and religion the which being done at a day appointed they came to the Courte and deliuered vp their writinges to the Emperour who after earnest praiers made perusing the writings that were deliuered rent in pieces the confessions made by the Arians and Eunomians and allowed onely and receyued the confession of the Catholikes The practise therefore of the authoritie of Princes in Ecclesiasticall matters euen in determining and iudging controuersies in Religion you might haue learned by these examples in Ambrose tyme. The. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. vlt. And by whome can the matters and orders of the Churche be better ordeyned than by the ministers of the Churche And if that be a good reason of M. Doctor in the fortie and seuenth Page that the Bishops ought therefore to ordeyne ministers bycause they are best able to iudge An other argu ment of the Papistes to the same purpose of the learning and abilitie of those which are the fittest it is also as good reason that therefore the ministers and gouernours of the Churche should appoynt and decree of suche ceremonies and orders as perteyne to the churche for bycause it is to be supposed that they can beste iudge of those matters bestowing their studies that wayes and further best vnderstanding the state of the church aboute the which they are wholly occupied Io. Whitgifte This also is a reason of M. Hardinges in the same cause but it onely preueth that it is moste conuenient and necessarie that Bishops and ministers of the Church The debating and deciding of matters in religion by bishops doth not derogate from the princes authoritie whyle they he learned and godly may haue the debating and deciding of matters in religion neyther dothe this derogate any thing from the authoritie of the Prince in the same causes we sée that matters in lawe are determined by iudges lawyers so be other ciuill matters by wise and prudent officers in like manner and yet is not the authoritie of the Prince thereby abridged but what if all the ministers of the Churche or moste of them be corrupt and vngodly
149. Sect. 1. And what reason can you giue why you should not aswell all owe Scilicet the Communion booke of it by subscription as you say that you haue hitherto done by vsing of it in your ministerie Will you speake one thing and doe an other Will you not subscribe to that whiche you publikely vse and giue your consent vnto T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1. The Admonition hath no such thing as M. Doctor chargeth the authors therof with that they dyd euer allow of the booke of seruice It sayth they bare with it and vsed it so farre as they might and therfore nowe when it came to the approuing of it by subscription they refused and there is no man which can not vnderstande that it is one thing to beate with a thing and an other to approue it and therfore to beare and to vse it so farre as might be may well agree with their refusall of subscription so that M. Doctors note is not worth the noting The Apostles did beare with the infirmitie of the Iewes addicted to the obseruation of the ceremoniall lawe yet they neuer allowed that infirmitie and they were so farre from approuing it by subscribing that they wrote agaynst it Io. Whitgifte They say they haue not only borne with it but vsed it also in their ministerie c. he that vseth a thing doth as much allowe of it by vsing as he could doe by subscribing But I will not contende with you about a matter of so small weight for neyther is their learning discretion or iudgement suche that the booke is better or worse for their allowing or disallowing of it They shew their natures bent to contention and vnreuerent estimation of the scriptures by abusing of them and that is all that can be gathered out of their booke The Apostles refused not to subscribe vnto such things as they permitted vnto the Iewes for a time neyther did they beare with any thing for their infirmitie agaynst the which they wrote If they haue done any such thing note the place Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 149. Sect. 1. If those persons by whome this booke was first authorised were studious of peace and of buylding vp of Christes Church as you say they were then you that seeke to deface it are disturbers of peace and destroyers of the Churche of Christ. They were singular learned men zelous in Gods religion blamelesse in life and Martyrs at their end for eyther al or the most part of them haue sealed this booke with their bloud But by the A note by the waye way this is to be noted that you confesse your selues to haue allowed that by vsing of it which you say is agaynst the worde of God T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1. Those sayth M. Doctor which authorised this booke were studious of peace and of buylding of Christes Church therfore they that speake agaynst it which he calleth defacing are disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the Church So I will reason (*) Vnequal com parisons For in these poyntes they were not buylders vp of Christes church Gedeon was studious of peace and of building of the Church therefore they whyche spake agaynst the Ephod whyche he made were disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the church We speake agaynst Images in churches and consubstantiation in the sacraments such lyke which Luther beeing studious of peace and of the building of the church did holde and yet we are not therfore disturbers of peace or destroyers of the church Although they were excellent personages yet their knowledge was in part and although they brought many things to our light yet they beeing sent out in y e morning or euer the sunne of the Gospell was risen so hygh might ouersee many things which those that are not so sharpe of sight as they were may see for bicause that which they want in the sharpnesse of sight they haue by the benefite and clearnesse of the sunne and of the light They sealed not the booke of seruice with their bloud as M. Doctor sayth for some that suffered for the truth declared openly their misliking of certayne things in it and as for the other they could neuer dye for that booke more than for the Lyturgie vsed in the French church or at Geneua For they receyued not the sentence of condemnation bicause they approued that booke but bicause they improued the articles drawne out of the Masse booke And if they had dyed for that booke as in deede they dyed for the booke of God yet the authoritie of their martyrdome coulde not take away from vs this libertie that we haue to enquire of the cause of their death Iustine and Cyprian were godly Martyrs and yet a man may not say that they sealed their errours whiche they wrote wyth their bloud or wyth this glory of their martyrdome preiudice those which speake or write agaynst their errours for this is to oppose the bloud of men to the bloud of the sonne of God Io. Whitgifte These be the words of the Admonition they saye that the Authors of that booke were studious of peace and of the building vp of Christes Churche and therefore vpon their owne words and confession I grounde mine argument This peace that they were studious of and sought to maynteyne by collecting and authorising this booke was a godly peace sought to be maynteyned by godly meanes and therefore suche as shall deface that godly meanes wherby they procured peace can not de iudged otherwyse than disturbers of the same peace Gedeon by making the Ephod did not séeke peace but rather glory for he erected Gedeons Ephod it to be a monument of his victorie Gedeon erected the Ephod for an other ende and purpose than God did appoynt it the Ephod that Gedeon made was the cause of idolatrie Likewise Images are expresly forbidden in the word of God there is a direct cōmaundement agaynst them so is consubstātiation also But the booke of common prayer is framed according to the scriptures appoynted to the true worshipping of God most repugnant to all Idolatrie Idolatrous worshipping and therfore these similitudes exāples that you vse be nothing like it is neither like to Gedeons Ephod ▪ nor maynteineth Luthers Images or consubstantiation but ouerthroweth them all Their knowledge was in parte in that sense that the Apostle speaketh Ex parte The prayse of the makers of the booke enim cognoscimus ex parte prophetamus VVe knowe in part and we prophecie in part c. But if they be compared vnto men I thinke for learning zeale godlynesse sounde 1. Cor. 1 iudgemēt most of thē haue not bin ouermatched by any that hath folowed And surely their learning iudgement was singular But no maruell it is though you make so small account of me poore wretch when you so basely speake of them Undoubtedly in cōparison of your selues I thinke you contēne
it be written redde or preached by man for the spirite of God is the Author of it man is but the instrument The rest of your proofes taken frō the vse of the Church as you say be all ab authoritate negatiuè and most of them ab authoritate hominum whiche kinde of argument your self haue before vtterly condēned I haue oftentimes could you that an argument à non facto ad non ius it is M. Zuinglius and other mens iudgement as well as mine is good neyther in diuine nor yet in humane thinges So far as I can learne Ionathan the Calday Paraphrast florished not in Christes Ionathan the Cald y paraphrast before christes time time as you say but. 42. yeares before Christ was borne and I thinke there is none of these Paraphrastes so faithfull in interpreting but that they misse in some places you can not but acknowledge that one good Sermon or Homilie of some learned mans well plainely redde to the people may edifie them more than the reading of these Paraphrastes And yet I suppose you knowe that the Iewes haue those Paraphrastes as yet redde in their Churches wherefore hitherto if you haue spoken any thing it is against your selfe But you say that this practise continued still in the Churches of god c. and you proue it by Iustine Martyr bycause he mentioneth nothing read in the churche but Monuments of the Prophetes and Ipostles Concerning your proofe I haue declared already of what force it is being drawne ab authoritate humana negatiuè Now that this practise continued not still in the Church you shall easily perceyue if you peruse that which Eusebius writeth The epistle of Ciement reade in the churche out of an Epistle of Dionysius Corinthius to Soter Byshop of Rome where he writeth after this sorte And in this epistle there is mention of an Epistle of Clemēt written to the Corinthians declaring that according to the olde custome it was read in the Euseb. lib. 4 ▪ Cap. 2 Church For thus he sayth we haue this day celebrated the holy day of the Lorde wherein we read your Epistle whiche we will alwayes read for admonition sake in like sorte as Dionysius liued about the yeare 147. the former epistle written to vs from Clement The Authors of the Centuries writing of this Dionysius thinke it not vnlike that his Epistles were also read in the Churche bicause Eusebius calleth them Catholicas Catholike Their woordes be these Non videtur prae ereundum quòd Eusebius basce epistolas Catholicas vocet fortè quia in Ecc esijs Cent. 2. cap. 10. piorum solitae sunt legi sicut Clementis This thing woulde not be omitted that Eusebius calleth these epistles Catholike peraduenture bicause they were wonte to be read in the Churches of the faythfull as the Epistle of Clement was And this may testifie of the practise of the Churche in Iustinus Martyrs time better than your negatiue Concil vas La. 4. argument And of the practise since the. 4. Can. Concil Vasens will giue sufficient testimonie where it is decreed that if the ministers be let by infirmitie or sickenesse the Homilies Homilies of fathers read in the church of the fathers should be read of the Deacons Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 172. Sect. 3. But of readyng Homilyes in the Churche I haue some thing Bucers opinion of ho lies in the churche spoken before nowe it shall be sufficient onely to set downe Master Bucers iudgement of this matter in his notes vpon the Communion booke whiche is this It is better that vvhere there lackes to expounde the Scriptures vnto the people there shoulde be Godly and learned Homilyes redde vnto them rather than they shoulde haue no exhortation at all in the administration of the Supper And a litle after There be too fevve Homilies and to fevve poyntes of Religion taught in them vvhen therefore the Lorde shall blesse this kingdome vvith some excellent Preachers lette them be commaunded to make mo Homilyes of the principall poynts of Religion vvhich may be redde to the people by those Pastors that can not make better themselues T. C. Pag. 158. Tovvardes the ende And as for Master Bucers authoritie I haue shewed before how it ought to be weyghed and here also it is suspitious for that it is sayde that his aduise was that when the Lord should blesse the realme with mo learned preachers that then order should be taken to make more homilies which should be redde in y e church vnto the people As if M. Bucer did not know that there were then learned preachers enough in the realme which were able to make Homilies so many as the volume of thē might easily haue exceeded the volume of the Bible if the multitude of Homilies would haue done so much good And if the authoritie of Master Bucer beare so great a swaye with Master Doctor that vpon his credite onely without eyther Scripture or reason or examples of the Churches primitiue or those which are nowe he dare thrust into the churche Homilies then the authorities of the most auncient and best councels ought to haue bene considered which haue giuen charge that nothing should be redde in the church but onely the Canonicall Scriptures Io. Whitgifte They are M. Bucers woordes in déede neyther is there any cause why you should suspect them so to be And it is not his iudgemēt only but other learned mens Ridleys iudgement of homilies in the churche also and namely that famous man D. Ridlies Bishop of London in the treatise before rehearsed Wherein thus he speaketh of the Churche of Englande that was in King Edwards time It had also holy and wholesome Homilies in commendation of the M. Foxe to 2. Pag. 1940. principall vertues which are commended in Scripture and likewise other Homilies agaynst the most pernicious and capitall vices that vseth alas to reygne in this Church of England And truly these authorities if I had no other reason preuaile more with me than all that you or any of your parte had sayd or is able to say to the contrarie Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 159. Lin. 4. For it was decreed in the councell of Laodicea that nothing should be redde in the churche but the Canonicall bookes of the olde and newe Testament and reckeneth vp what they be Afterwarde 59. Can. conc Laodi rom 1. concil as corruptions grewe in the church ▪ it was permitted that homilies might be redde by the Deacon when the minister was sicke and could not preach and it was also in an other Councell of Carthage permitted that the martyres lyues might be redde in the church but besides the euill successe that those decrecs had vnder preteuce whereof the Popish Legende and Gregories Concil vasense 1. to 4. tom cōcil 6. c concil Colon. parte 2. homilies c. creptin that vse and custome was controlled
many things out of order and that not by the iudgement of the Admonition and fauourers thereof onely but euen of all whiche are not willingly blinde I say if he do not amende these speaches the crime of false prophecie will sitte closer vnto him than he shall be euer able to shake of in the terrible day of the Lorde Io. Whitgifte There muste be as well rewardes for those that haue spent much time in getting There muste be rewardes for learning already atteyned learning and be learned as there muste be meanes to maynteyne men whiles they be in learning Grammer schooles and the Uniuersities serue for the one and Cathedrall churches with such other preferments serue for the other spoyle the one and the other can not possibly stande Your immodest and vncharitable speaches worke most discredite to your selfe That which I speake of other Churches by way of comparison I speake for the truth of the doctrine sincere administration of the Sacramentes and all other poynts of Religion by publike authoritie established in this Realme wherein I say agayne that there is no cause why it should giue place to any Churche that n we is And yet I do not defende the faultes of men or other corruptions from the which no Church is frée But for the cryme of false prophecie wherewith you charge me I truste it be farre from me I woulde pronenesse to contention and vncharitable iudging ▪ were as farre from you Howbeit we both must stand or fall to our owne Lord and therefore it is no good iudging before the time ¶ Of ciuill Officies in Ecclesiasticall persons Tract 23. A triall of the places alleaged by the Admonition agaynst such ciuill offices as are exercised by Ecclesiasticall persons in this realme Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 3. The places alleaged by the Admonition to prone that ministers of the church may not intermeddle with ciuill functions one onely excepted are well and fitly alleaged and most of them vsed to that ende of writers which if I should name (*) Lorde howe lowe would you throwe him downe all would confesse that they are such as with whom M. Doctor is not worthy to be so much as spoken of the same day Io. Whitgifte ▪ This is more than modestie would suffer and tootoo outrageous for whatsoeuer the worthinesse of these men is otherwise yet am Ia minister of the woorde as well as they I am a member of the Church of Christ as well as they I am bought with his bloud as well as they therfore to say that I am not worthie to be so much as spokē of the same day wherein they are named is but extréeme immodestie passing contempt There is not so much attributed to Iesus Christ nor the Popes flatterers did neuer so excessiuely extoll him Are they so woorthie that a man may not be spoken of the same day that they are named who be they trowe we or what is their names But belike you are afrayde to name them least by speaking of me the same day you shoulde do vnto them some great dishonour in your iudgement they are better than God himselfe for the simplest that is may be named the same day that God is In déede a pretie cloake to couer your vayne bragging for I thinke you woulde haue named them if you had knowne them But to the matter Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Admonition Moreouer in that they haue s Luc. 9. 60. 61. Luc. 12. 14. Rom. 12. 7. 1. Tim. 6. 11 2. Tim. 2. 3. 4. Bishops pri sōs popishe Eugenius the firste bringer of them in ciuill offices ioyned to the Ecclesiasticall it is agaynst the worde of God As for an Archbishop to be a Lorde president a Lord Bishop to be a Countie Palatine a prelate of the Garter who hath much to do at S ▪ Georges feast when the Bible is caried before the Procession in the crosses place a Iustice of peace or Iustice of Quorum an high Commissioner c. And therfore they haue their prysons as Clinkes G t houses Colehouses towres and astles which is also agaynst the Scriptures This is not to haue keyes but swordes and playne tokens they are that they exercise that which they would so fayne seeme to wante I meane dominion ouer theyr brethren Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 214. Sect. 2. To proue that ciuill offices ioyned to the Ecclesiasticall is against the worde of God first you note Luke 9. verse 60. 61. where it is thus writtē And Iesus sayd vnto him let the dead burie the dead but go thou and preach the kingdome of God Then an other sayd I wil follow thee Lord but let me first go bid them farevvell vvhich are at my house How conclude you any thing of these places against ciuill offices in Ecclesiastical persons Christs meaning in this place is to teache vs I meane all Christians that when he calleth vs we ought not to be hindred from following and that forthwith by any excuse of doing dutie towards our friends or respect of worldly commoditie or for feare of any payne or trouble and this is spoken generally to all Christians and not alone to any one kinde of men T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 4. For the first place if so be that the minister ought rather to leaue necessarie duties of burying 9. Lu his father and saluting his friendes vndone than that he shoulde not accomplishe his ministerie to the full much more he ought not to take vpon him those things which are not onely not necessarie dueties but as it shall appeare do in no case belong vnto him And although it may be applied to all Christians yet it doth most properly belong vnto the ministers Io. Whitgifte This is no answere to that which I haue sayde for I say that the meaning of Christ in this place is that when we are called to eternall life by him we ought not to protracte the time nor to séeke any delayes but leaue all and follow him this is the meaning of Christ this is the summe of my Answere and to this you say nothing but make a new collection that the minister ought rather to leaue necessarie duties of burying his father c. which though it be not the direct sense of this place yet I graunt it to be true for such ciuill offices as I allow in Ecclesiasticall persons are helpes for them to do their duties Wherefore as this place is vnaptly applied by the Admonition so is it vnanswered by you it may as well be vsed to debarre anyother Christians from ciuill functions as ministers of the woorde Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 215. Sect. 1. Secondly for the same purpose you vse Luke 12. verse 14. where Christ speaking to him that sayde vnto him Master bid my brother deuide the inheritance vvith me answereth on this sorte Man vvho made me a iudge or a deuider ouer you Christ came in
deede to be iudged not to iudge he came to worke the worke of our redemption not to decide controuersies touching landes and possessions But will you therfore take from Christian men authoritie to iudge for this exāple of Christ can no more be applied to Bishops than it may be to kings bicause the doings of Christ is a patterne for all Christians and yet Christians may iudge matters and decide controuersies amongst their brethren Looke 1. Cor. 6. The Anabaptists vse this text for one Argument of the Anabaptistes confuted of their reasons to condemne magistratie among Christians therfore a very learned and late writer in his exposition of this place writeth thus Hinc colligitur quantopere insaniant qui ex hoc loco magistratum inter Christianos damnant nam Christus non argumentatur à re ipsa tanquà m profana sit sed à vocatione sua quòd missus sit in alium finem tametsi res erat per se satis sancta pia Hereof may it be gathered hovv greatly they dote vvhich condemne magistrates amongst Christians by this place for Christe doth not reason of the thing it selfe as though it vvere profane but of his ovvne vocation bicause he vvas sent to an other ende although the thing of it selfe is holy and good T. C. Pag. 155. Sect. 4. vlt. And as for the other place of Luke touching our sauiour Christes refusall to deuide the inheritaunce 12. Luke betwene the brethren it is moste aptly alleaged to this purpose For although our sauiour Christ doth not there take away from men authoritie to iudge yet he sheweth thereby sufficiently that it belongeth not vnto the ministers of the worde to entermeddle in y e iudgement of ciuil causes For our sauiour Christ framed that answere hauing respect to the boundes of his calling For as he beyng minister of the Gospell did all those things which were perteyning to his ministerie so by refusing this office of iudgement in ciuill causes he gaue to vnderstand that it did not appertayne vnto the compasse of that office which he exercised which was y e ministerie And therefore it is altogether out of season that M. Doctor here alleageth that y e Anabaptistes vse this reason to proue that Christians may not haue magistrates For howe doth this follow that bycause this place of S. Luke proueth not that we ought to haue no Christian magistrates that therfore it proueth not that the minister should be no magistrate as if there could be no ciuill magistrates onlesse ministers of the worde were And the place which he alleageth out of the learned man doth not only not make any thing for him but doth quite ouerthrow his cause For he sayth that our sauiour Christ did not refuse this as a thing in it selfe vnlawfull but bycause it did not agree with his vocation Now the vocation of our sauiour Christ was to be a minister of the Gospell therefore it doth not agree with the vocation of a minister of the gospell to iudge or to intermedle in ciuill gouernment And if M. Doctor had bene so studious of M. Caluins workes as by his often 4. Lib. Inscit 11. cap. allegation of him he would make the world beleue he might haue redde in him this sentence cited for this purpose to proue that the ministers haue not to do in ciuill thinges Io. Whitgifte Neyther do you héere replie to my Answere for I tolde you that Christ came to be iudged not to iudge in matters of lands and possessions I tolde you likewise that this example of Christ perteyneth no more to Bishops than it dothe to Kings and therefore can no fitlyer be by you applied agaynst Bishops than by the Anabaptistes agaynst Christian Magistrates To all this in effect you haue sayde nothing Your owne collection is soone answered Fyrst no man giueth to Bishops authoritie to iudge in matters of inheritance for suche controuersies are to be decided by lawe whiche hath other Iudges appoynted for it Secondly Christ spake this to declare that his kingdome was not of this worlde but of the worlde to come not earthly but heauenly not temporall but eternall and therefore he spake it touching his owne person onely and not as a rule perteyning to other Christians as the Anabaptists feyne Thirdly the authoritie in ciuill matters that is committed to ministers in Ciuill offices in our ministers tende to y e gouernment of the church this Churche is committed vnto them by the Prince for the better gouernment of the Churche and the fuller satisfying of their duetie consisting for the moste parte onely in punishing and correcting sinne And lastly it is not made a thing incident to the ministerie or as parte of that office but it is added as profitable conuenient and necessarie for the present state of the Churche and fuller accomplishing of the ministers duetie I haue tolde you in my Answere to the Admonition that this example of Christ dothe no more perteyne vnto Bishops than to other Christians whiche béeing true and vnconfuted by you then dothe it followe that the Anabaptistes maye aswell alleage it agaynst other Christians as you maye doe agaynst Bishops or Ministers The learned mans interpretation dothe well agrée with my cause for Christ refused it bicause he came to be iudged and to suffer death for the redemption of the world which is the vocation that this learned man speaketh of and is onely proper to Christ. I denie not but that M. Caluine may apply this texte to that purpose but M. Caluine dothe expounde him selfe writing vpon this same place when he saythe that euery man must respect his owne vocation quid illi sit aptum and what is meete for it Nowe the ciuill authoritie that Ecclesiasticall persons haue in this Churche is meete for theer vocation And therefore M. Caluine speaketh nothing agaynst it In the same booke chapter he alleageth these words of Bernarde ▪ whiche he writeth to Pope Eugenius of this matter Ergo in criminibus non in possessionibus potestas vestra c. VVherefore your power is in offences not in possessions And this conclusion he bringeth in vpon the wordes of S. Luke chapter 12. I would not as I sayde before haue Bishops Iudges in controuersies of enheritance Wherein the Bishops authoritie consisteth I doe not affirme that they may in the right of their ministerie chalenge any ciuill authoritie as the Bishop of Rome dothe But forasmuche as the authoritie is in Criminibus in offences as Bernarde sayth therfore if it please the Prince to giue it them they may lawfully execute so muche authoritie ciuill as shall further and helpe them in suppressing sinne And this is agaynst nothing that M. Caluine hathe sayde For M. Caluine and other learned wryters of this age doe vse this place of S. Luke and suche like agaynst the vsurpation of Romishe Bishops chalenging suche authoritie in ciuill matters as due vnto them Iure diuino and so
their ministerie and those thyngs whych the worde of God doth necessarily put vpon them least the strength of theyr mynde and of theyr body beeyng distracted vnto many things they shoulde be the lesse able to accomplishe their ministerie vnto the full Which may also partly appeare by that whych I haue alleaged out of Cyprian whyche wyll not permit them so much as to be executors of a Testament And in the. 80. Canon of those which are ascribed vnto the Apostles it is enioyned that they should not entangle themselues with worldly offices but attende vpon their ecclesiasticall affayres Io. Whitgifte If you compare the state of the Churche before the time of Christian Kings with the state of it vnder Christian Kings you make an vnequall comparison For howe coulde ecclesiasticall persons enioy any ciuill function when there was no ciuil Magistrate christian to commit the same vnto them How could by this meanes the gouernment of the Church be thought to be helped by the Ciuill Magistrate when as it had no greater enimies than ciuill Magistrates who sought by all meanes to suppresse and destroy it but nowe to your reasons To yprians authoritie I haue answered before The Canons of the Apostles haue nowe béene alleaged by you at the least 4. or 5. times and yet is not their credite and authoritie so firme But that Canon meaneth onely suche worldely causes as be impedimentes to their vocation and I haue tolde you often that ciuill functions be necessarie helpes to the dooing and ful accomplishing of their ecclesiasticall office I haue expressed in my Answere to the Admonition what worldly affayres a minister of the word may not intangle him selfe with Chap. seconde the. 8. diuision T. C. Pag. 168. Sect. vlt. Further in the * councell of Calcedon it was decreed that none of the clearkes cleargie Tom. 1. can 3. as it termeth them should receyue any charge of those which are vnder age vnlesse they were such as the lawes dyd necessarily cast vpon him which it calleth inexcusable charges meaning by all likelihoode the wardship of his brothers children or some such thing Where is also declared the cause of that decree to haue bin for that there were certayne ministers which were Stewards to noble men And 〈◊〉 the. 7. canon of the same councell it is decreed that none of the cleargy shoulde eyther goe to warfare as souldiours or captaynes or should receyue any secular honors and if they dyd they should be excommunicated or accursed Io. Whitgifte The words of the thirde Canon be these Relation is made vnto this holy Synode Con. Calced can 3. that certayn amongst the cleargie for filthie lucers sake hyer other mens possessions take vpon them the causes of secular businesse and through slouthfulnesse separate themselues frō diuine functions and runne to the houses of secular persons for couetousnesse take vpon thē the gouernment of their substance therfore this holy vniuersall great Synode hath decreed that none of these hereafter that is Bishop or Clearke or Monke shall hyer possessions or intermeddle with secular possessions except those that by lawe are dryuen to take the tuition and care of suche as be vnder age or those to whome the Bishop of the Citie hathe committed the gouernment of ecclesiasticall things and of Orphanes and widowes which are without succour or of such persons which neede the helpe of the Church for the feare of God c. This Canon conteyneth nothing contrarie to my assertion the words of the Canon be playne I shall not néede to vse any exposition of it Onely I would haue the Reader marke the weight of your argument which is this The Councell of Chalcedon sayeth that Clerkes may not for filthy lucres sake hyre other mennes possessions or take vpon them for couetousnesse sake the gouernment of other mennes possessions c. therefore there may be no ciuill office committed vnto them I will aske no better cōmentaries to the Canon of the Apostles before alledged or any other suche like than this very Canon of the Councell of Chalcedon To what purpose do you alledge the. 7. Canon of that Councell did you euer heare me say that I would haue a minister to be a Souldier or a captaine in warre or enioy any such secular honor or offices wherefore you lacke probation when you are constrayned to vse this ¶ The reasons vsed in the Answere iustified Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Lin. 4. Sect. 1. 2. Now I come to M. Doctors arguments which he bringeth to establish this disorder And first he sayth ministers of the worde may not occupie themselues in worldly businesse as to be marchants husbandmen craftes men and such like but they may exercise ciuil offices Wher first of all I perceyue M. Doctor is of this mynde that the order of God is not to be broken for small gayne or when a man must take great toyle of the bodie to breake it but if it may be broken with getting of honor and doing of those things which may be done without toyle and with great commendation then it is lawfull to breake it In deede so the Poet but in the person of an vniust and ambitious man sayde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is If a man muste do vniustiy he must do it to beare rule Secondarily I do see that M. Doctor will not be shackled and hindred from his ministerie by a payre of yron fetters but if he can get a payre of golden fetters he is contented to be hampered and entangled from doing the office of ministerie committed vnto him For vnlesse these should be the causes which should moue him to take the one and refuse the other verily I see none Io. Whitgifte This is to deride not to answere M Bucer writing vpon the. 4. to the Ephes. Bucer rehearsing such worldly businesse as withdrawe the minister from his function and therefore be not meete for him to exercise sayth thus Such businesse as warfare market affayres marchandise hucksters craft the ouersight of Innes Tauerns and bathes to exercise vnliberall craftes as to digge mettals and stones to burne lyme to carie sande to be schauengers and such like You haue not yet proued that Gods order is broken if the ciuill offices which I speake of be committed to Ecclesiasticall persons Your iesting tauntes I leaue to those that professe that cunning Chap. 3. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. 2. For whereas he sayth it is a helpe and maynteyneth religion in deede that is the reason of the Lib. 4. cap. 11. Papistes which M. Caluin confuteth in his institution And although it be good and necessary to punish vice and iniquitie by corporall punishmentes and by ciuill corrections yet it doth no more followe that that should be done by the ministers than it followeth that for that preachyng and ministring the Sacramentes and excommunication are good and necessarie therfore the same is fitte to be executed
a little after hee sayeth That hee coulde not omitte those businesse withoute the omittyng of his dutye To the same effecte dothe he speake in that Treatise that is among his Episiles in number an hundreth and ten where he desyreth the people that they woulde not moleste hym for the space of fyue dayes wyth theyr worldely matters by reason of certayne busynesse commytted vnto hym as it appeareth in these woordes It pleaseth mee and you for the care of the scriptures whych the brethren and fathers my fellowe Byshops dydde vouchesafe to laye vppon mee in Ang. epi. 110. the Councells of Numidia and Carthage for the space of fyue dayes no man shoulde trouble mee These thynges were propounded you were contente youre decree and consente was rehersed it was kepte but a small tyme and afterwardes you did violently brust in vnto mee neyther coulde I bee suffered to doe that whyche I woulde In the forenoone and in the after noone I am troubled with mennes busynesse I desyre you for Chrystes sake to suffer me to committe the care of my troubles to Eradius this yong man and prieste whome thys daye in the name of Christ I appoynt to be your bishop and my successour Possidonius nameth no elders but speaketh onely of Augustine and whosoeuer shall with diligence pervse the nintéenth chapter of Possidonius shall be enforced to confesse that he meaneth Augustine was occupyed as well in ciuill as ecclesiasticall matters and in determinyng of them as in writyng of letters for them or in giuyng of counsell Wherefore this example of Augustine is moste fitly alleaged of the Bishop of Sarum and manyfestly declareth what was the vse in his dayes touching suche matters Chap. 3. the. 15. Diuision The Bishop of Sarū in the defense of the Apol. in the. 5. parte 4. chap. 2. sect T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 2. And for the truth of thys matter that ministers oughte not to meddle wyth ciuill affayres (*) But you shall not fynde him contrary to him selfe as you surmyse I will appeale to no other than to the Bishop himselfe who doth assume playnly the same that the admonition here affirmeth Io. Whitgifte In that place the Bishop of Sarisburie speaketh onely of the Pope who vsurpeth M. Iewell speaketh not againste ciuill o ces in ministers simply but allowed them by his owne practise the whole and full authoritie of a secular Prince and doth chalenge the same iure diuino by the authoritie of Gods worde He speaketh not of suche Bishops to whome so muche ciuill authoritie is committed by the Prince as maye serue to the correction of vice and good and quyet gouernmente of the Churche forsomuch as he did himselfe exercyse the same And surely it is not well done of you thus to charge that worthie man with contrarieties vniustly For doth he that confuteth the Popes vniust claime and vngodly vsurpation of both the swords in that maner y t he claymeth vseth them condemne al maner kind of ciuil iurisdctiō by christian Princes committed to Bishops being helpes vnto them in dooing their duetie and tendyng to the good and quiet gouernmente of the Churche Surely you are good in confounding but too bad in distinguishing wherefore you haue vntruly reported of that worthie Bishop Chap. 3. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 3. And therfore I conclude that forsomuche as (*) Wherefare you not asha med of vutruthi bothe the holie scriptures do teache that ministers ought not to meddle with ciuil offices and reason and the practise of the Church do confirme it that they ought to kepe themselues within the limites of the ministerie and ecclesiastical functions least whylest they breake forth into the callyng of a Magistrate in stead of shewing them selues 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is ouerseers they be founde to declare themselues 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is busy bodies medlyng in things which belong not vnto them And thus putting them in remembrance of that whiche they knowe well mough that they ought 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say studie to adorne that charge whiche they take in hand and do professe I leaue to speake any further of this matter Io. Whitgifte Melchisedech being a Priest did exercise ciuill iurisdiction for he was king of Salem The scriptures teach that ecclesiasticall persons maye haue ciuill iurisdiction Gen 14. Aaron being a Priest did iudge the whole people in temporall matters euen in causes of inheritance Num. 27. In the. 17. of Deuteronomie there is a commaundement that ciuill matters of difficultie shal be referred to the Priests and to the iudge Elye and Samuel Priests did iudge the people in matters temporall Gen. 14. Nume 27. Deut. 17. 1. Sam. The people of Israell after theyr captiuitie were gouerned by Priestes and Prophetes as by Esdras Nehemias Mattathias c. The Scripture in no place commaundeth the contrarie nor moueth vnto it yet you are not ashamed to say that the holye scriptures doe teache that ministers oughte not to meddle with ciuill offices Lykewyse in Augustines tyme it is euidente by the woordes before recited The practise of the churche concerning ciuill offices in ministers that it was not straunge but vsuall and counted a péece of duetie for Bishops to deale in Ciuil causes and that as Iudges The authours of the Centuries in the fourth Centur. chap. 7. say that Bishops in that age did giue sentence in ciuil causes if anye didde appeale from the Ciuill courtes to their authoritie Sozomene Lib. 1. cap. 9. Bishops gaue sentence in ciuil causes Cent. 4. cap. 7. Sozom. li. 1. cap. 9. wryteth thus of Constantine the Emperour This was a greate argumente of his good affection towardes Christian religion that he made a lawe for the freedome of clearkes in all places and also hee gaue libertie for those that were called into iudgemente to appeale to the Bishops if they were disposed to refuse the ciuill magistrates and he commaunded that their sentence should stand and be of more force than the sentence of the Appeale graū ted from ciuill magistrates to Bishops other iudges euen as though it had proceeded from the Emperour hymselfe And that the Magistrates and their ministers should see that acomplished that was determined and iudged in suche causes by the Bishops Nicephorns lib. 7. cap. 9. maketh mention of one Philaeas a Bishop that was greatly Niceph. lib. 7. cap. 9. commended for his wisedome and dexteritic in determining ciuill matters committed vnto him Sozomene lib. 6. cap. 32. testifieth of Epiphanius Bishop of Salamine Soz. li. 6. c. 32. Epiphanius busied with ciuill canses that together with his pastorall office he was occupyed and that with greate commendation in ciuill and politike affaires Eusebius lib. 7. cap. 32. testifieth that Dorotheus being a Priest of the Churche of Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 32. Antioche and wel learned did scrue the
with the fault of the print or by carping at the translation when the wordes being changed the sense remayneth or by alleadging that such a one or such another was of this or that iudgement as you for the most part hauing nothing but his bare name haue done All whiche thinges you haue committed in this booke ▪ but that you confute it by the authoritie of the worde of God by good and sound reasons wholy and not by peecemeale And if you bring the practise of the churches we desire that it may be out of authorities which are extant which are not counterfeyte and which were in the best and purest times And if you thinke that the credite of your Doctor ship or Deanry will beare out that which you cannot answer your selfe besides that * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is neuer shut ▪ remember M. Doctor that lighte is come into tht worlde and The reuenging eye men will not be deluded with nothing nor abused with visards neyther let it embolden you which peraduenture hathe made poli presume the more in ▪ this booke to write any thing vppon hope that no man dare answer it For neyther the Queenes Maiestie nor hir honorable counsell as we are perswaded will deale so sharply with those whome they know to be faithfull and lawfull subiects which pray that all the treasures of Gods wisedome may be poured vpon them neither haue we cause to thinke but that as the euill opinion which is in part conceiued of vs hath growen vppon false and vntrue informations whiche you and such other haue giuen in crying in their eares that we be Anabaptists conspired with Papists Puritanes Donatists bringers in of confusion and anarchy enimies to ciuill gouernment and I know not what euen so when hir Maiestie and their honours shall vnderstand how farre we are from those wicked opinions they will leaue that opinion of vs ▪ and rather esteeme of vs by that we haue preached taught and now write than that whiche other men report of vs being thinges which we neuer taught ▪ spake or so much as dreamed of Io. Whitgifte It is so farre from satisfying me in any point that it greatly confirmeth me in some thing where vnto before I did but incline Such is the weakenesse of your grounds Your request made vnto me is against all reason for how can you require that of The Replye requireth that of others which he him selfe woulde not performe me towarde you which you haue in no respect perfourmed towards me for firste you haue not set downe my booke that the Reader mighte perceiue how vprightly you deale with me secondly you haue passed ouer many thinges and left them vnanswered Thirdly you haue vnreasonably wrested my words and in most places you do nothing but wrangle you haue mangled my booke and so skipt from place to place that the Reader shall hardly perceine what you take or what you leaue to be short you haue vsed few scriptures and those vntollerably wrested How then can you require the contrary of me But I haue satisfied your request to the full I trust saue only I do not intend to learne of you how to answer what authoritie to vse but if the authorities and reasons that I bring shall be sound to be light they shall the more easily by you be remoued I depend not vppon the credit of my Doctorship or Deanry neither would I wish you too much to trust to the opinion of your owne learning and witte I say with Sainte Augustine Let scripture be compared with scripture reason with reason authoritie with authoritie cause with cause and let vs both according to the same be iudged I doubte not of the answering of my booke neyther do I feare it you knowe that Conference by writing hath bin often offered to the Replier I haue offered you diuerse tymes this kind of conference though not in thys publike manner I haue spoken nothing agaynste you before hir maiestie whyche your bookes and doings haue not proued to be true Hir Maiestie and their honours know what they haue to do the Lord blisse them with his holy spirit and in all their doings guide them Of the additions detractions and alterations made by the admonitors in both the partes of the Admonition T. C. Pag. 173. Sect. 1. Beside that often thne M. Doctor doth account the expositions and explanations corrections he ueth vs somewhat the lesse hope that he will correct his errours for that he purfueth the authours of the Admonition so harde correcting their very small and few slips whiche they haue made calling this singular destie and commendable hum tie amongst other reproches dalying and inconstancie when it is our profession euery day to learne better things For vnto what end should we liue if time if experiēce if reading iusing if conference should teach vs nothing And therefore when thinges are printed againe it is good and prayse worthy to polishe those thynges which are some what rud to mitigate these things which are too sharpe to make playne to giue light to those things which seeme darker and to correct that which is amisse I thinke M. Doctor should not be ignorante that wise men haue their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there second councells and those also wiser and better than their first as that sentence doth declare I will therefore say no more hereof but admonish M. Doctor that he receiue more louingly those whiche correcte themselues seing that the best defense to his booke must be not a correction here and there but a cleane blotting or striking out not an amending but a new making almost of his whole booke Other matter in his censures he hath almost none at all woorth the answering sauing that he hathe a place or two which toucheth the matters before entreated of Io. Whitgifte It behoueth such as will take vpon them to plucke downe that which is wel builded They whiche wil pul down the olde and place a newe platforme oughte to be v rie circumspecte and to make a new platforme to be well aduised what they do and assured of their cunning if this ought to be in humane matters and in externall affaires of the life of man how much more ought it to be in diuine matters and things perteyning to the kingdome of heauē I do not mislike that modestie and humilitie that is contente to be corrected and to acknowledge that whiche is ami e. But I can by no meanes allowe that pryde and arrogancie that presuming to condemne the whole state of a Churche and to prescribe vnto the same a newe platforme is by and by after through vnskilfulnesse and lack of discretion at the first constreyned to misselyke that newe platforme also and to p ce it and patch it like a beggers cloke with putting too and taking fro with altering and chaunging sometyme this and sometyme that like vnto foolishe and vnskilful buylders It behoueth suche as will take vpon them
and sixth sections he speaketh of the maner and forme of confirmation and laying on of handes vsed by the Papists and disproueth that as his owne wordes which I haue for that purpose more at large set downe do plainly declare for in the fourth Section of the. 19. Chapter thus hee wryteth This was the maner in tymes past that the children of Christians shoulde bee Caluin inst cap. 9 sect 4. set before the Bishop after they were come to yeares of discretion that they might performe that which was required of them that being of age did offer themselues to baptisme For these sat among the Catechumeni vntill being rightly instructed in the mysteries of fayth they were able to vtter a confession of their fayth before the Bishop and the people The insants therefore that were baptised bicause then they made no confession of A kind of con described by Caluin not disagreeing from ours fayth in the Church at the ende of their childehoode or in the beginning of their youth they were againe presented of their parents and were examined of the Bishop according to a certaine and common forme of a Catechisme And to the intent that this action which otherwise ought of right to be graue and holy might haue the greater reuerence and estimation there was added also the ceremonie of laying on of handes so the childe was dismissed his fayth being approued with a solemne blessing The auncient fathers make often mention of this order Pope Leo If any man returne from heretikes let him not againe be baptised but let the vertue of the spirite which was wanting be giuen vnto him by the laying on of the Bishops handes Here our aduersaries will crie that it is rightly called a Sacrament wherein the holy Ghost is giuen But Leo himselfe doth in another place expounde what he meaneth by those wordes He that is baptised sayth he of heretikes let him not be rebaptised but let him be cōfirmed with the inuocation of the holy Ghost by the imposition of handes bicause he receyued only the forme of baptisme without sanctification Hierome also maketh mention hereof contra Luciferianos Although I doe not denie that Herome is somwhat herein deceyued that he sayth that it is an Apostolicall obseruation yet is he most farre from these mens follies And he mittigateth it when he sayth that this blessing was graunted only to the Bishop rather for the honour of priesthood than by the necessitie of the law VVherefore such an imposition of handes which is simply in stead of a blessing I commend and would wish it were at these dayes restored to the pure vse These words be euident declare a maner of confirmation correspondent to ours In the fifth Section he wryteth thus But the latter age haue brought in a counterfey e The abuse of confirmation in the popish Church confirmation in stead of a Sacrament of God the thing it selfe beeing almost quite blotted out They feyne this to be the vertue of confirmation to giue the holy Ghost vnto the encrease of grace whiche was giuen in baptisme to innocencie of lyfe to confirme them vnto battail which in baptisme were regenerated vnto life This confirmation is wrought with annointing and this forme of wordes I signe the with the signe of the holy Ghost and I confirme thee with the oyntment of saluation in the name of the father and of the sonne and of the holy ghost c. And in confuting this maner of confirmation and imposition of handes he procéedeth on in this fifth Section in the sixth Section Wherefore Master Caluine is not contrarie to himselfe neyther disalloweth that kinde of confirmation and imposition of handes in the sixth Section which he alloweth in the fourth But in the one he approueth the maner of the auncient and purer Church touching confirmation in the other he disproueth the vse doctrine of the papistical church cōcerning the same This might you haue sene if you had bin disposed but you care not whom you discredit so that you may winne credit to your selfe The confession of the Churches of Heluetia Berne c. speake only of the Popishe The Repl viech that against our confirmation which is 〈◊〉 of the Papistes Confess Heluet cap. 19. confirmation which the Papists make one of their seuen Sacraments as it is manifest by the wordes of the confession which be these Confirmation and extreame vnction or anealing are the inuentiōs of man which the church may wante without any dammage Neither vse we them in our churches for they haue some things which we can not allowe Nowe to vse that against Confirmation reformed purged from these things which they mislike which is spoken of the Popishe confirmation with all the abuses can it be thinke you the parte of an honest and playne dealing man Ansvvere to the Additions c. Fol. 6. In the ende of that fiftenth article or reason this is added And whiche of them haue not preached against the Popes twoo swordes now whether they vse thē not them selues Touching the Popes twoo swordes we are of the same minde still for the Pope contrary to the word of God taketh from Princes vnto him selfe that authoritie which is due vnto them by the worde of God and would haue them to receiue that authoritie from him whiche he hath no power to giue the Pope also requireth the full authoritie of a ciuill magistrate and exempteth him self from all subiection which is lat cōtrary to the word of God our Bishops Bishops doo not vse the ciuiil sworde as the pope doth in this church do not chalenge as of their owne right any such ciuil authoritie but only according to their dutie execute that that by the Prince and lawes of this realme for iust considerations is laide vpō them Neither do they meddle in all ciuill causes or exercise all ciuill iurisdiction but suche only as helpeth to discipline and to the good gouernment of this church and state wherfore we may safely preach against the Popes twoo swordes and yet lawefully defend that iurisdictiō and authoritie that any Bishop hath in this church for any thing that I knowe T. C. Page 174. Sect. 3. Upon the sixt leafe M. Doctor saith that the Pope taketh the sworde from Princes but our Bishops take it at their handes and giuen of them as though challenge were not made against the Pope for vsing the materiall sworde and not only for vsing it against the wil of the Princes For by that reason if Princes would put their swordes in his hande as sometimes they haue done he might lawefully vse them And wheras he saieth that our churchmen meddle not with all ciuill causes or exercise all ciuill iurisdiction but such as helpeth to discipline and the good gouernment of the church the estate What sayth he that is not truly sayd of any ciuill magistrate in the realme For no one doth meddle in all causes And further I would gladly knowe
handle matters which perteyne not to the spirituall iurisdiction this I say he speaketh but he doth not proue it In the rest of that Section he intreateth of the abuses of such officers wherein I doe not dissent from him T. C. M. Beza in hs booke of Diuorces prouing that the iudiciall deciding of matrimoniall causes apperteyneth vnto the ciuill magistrate sayth that Officials Proctors end Promoters and in a worde all the swinish filth now of long time hath wasted the Church Io. Whitgifte I vnderstande not by what reasons M. Beza in that place proueth that the iudiciall deciding of matrimoniall causes apperteyneth to the ciuill Magistrate Howbeeit Officials c. in such cases deale not in this Church of Englande without the consent and authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate It is not good dealing to applie those things which M. Beza and other speake of such offices abused vnder the Pope to the same offices nowe reformed vnder a Christian Prince that professeth the Gospell But thus you dazell the peoples eyes T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. Chap. to the Romaines speaking against the ciuill iurisdiction of Bishops doth by the same reason condemne it in their Deputies the Officials Io. Whitgifte Peter Martyr speaketh not agaynst the office but agaynst certaine abuses in the officers this is not simple dealing to transferre that to the office that is spoken of the abuse of the office T. C. 7 That the Ministers of the worde ought not to exercise any ill offices and iurisdiction M. Caluin in his institutions 4. booke 11. chap. 9. Sect. bringeth diuers reasons to proue that Bishops may neyther vs rpe nor take 〈◊〉 giuen them eyther the right of the sworde or the knowledge of ciuill causes Io. Whitgifte The reasons that M. Caluine vseth there be neyther many nor greatly strong I haue answered them fullie Tract 23. and yet M. Caluine speaketh onely of that princely power which the Romishe Bishops clayme not as committed vnto them by the Prince and and ciuill Magistrate but due vnto them by the worde of God from the which chalenge I haue shewed in the foresayde treatise howe farre our Bishops are T. C. M. Beza in his Confessions Chap. 5. Sect. 32. sayth that the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction is to be distinguished from the ciuill and that although the Bishoppes in the tymes of christian Emperours were troubled with the hearing of ciuill causes yet they did not that by any iudiciall power which they exercised but by a friendly intreatie of the parties whiche were at discorde and sayth notwithstanding that herein the Emperours did giue to much to the ambition of certaine Bishops wherevpon by little and by little afterwarde all things were confounded And in the. 42. Section sayth that those corporall punishments whiche the Apostles exercised were peculiar and extraordinarie Io. Whitgifte M. Beza his bare worde is no sufficient proofe agaynst so many other testimonies and reasons as are to the contrarie and I haue sufficiently shewed Tract 23. cap. 3. Diuis vlt. that Bishops in tymes past did not onely heare ciuill causes but also iudicially determine the same Touching the corporall punishments which the Apostles exercised M. Beza in his booke de Haereticis a magistratu puniendis doth make them so ordinarie that he vseth them as sufficient arguments to proue his purpose and sayth plainly that the Apostles did exercise these punishments not by the right of the Ecclesiasticall ministerie but by the right of the ciuill Magistracie as I haue declared Tract 23. Cap. 3. Diuis 12. T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. to the Romanes speaking of this meetings of both Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in one man sayth that when both the ciuill and Ecclesiasticall functions do so meete that one hynder the other so that he which exerciseth the one cannot minister the other Io. Whitegifte M. Martyr speaketh of an absolute iurisdiction ciuill such as the Pope claymeth and not of this which is practised by the Bishops in the Church of England whereof he had experience in the dayes of King Edwarde euen in this realme and the which he also then allowed T. C. M. Bucer vpon the. 5. of Matthew sayth that there is no man so wise and holy which is able to exercise both the ciuill and the Ecclesiasticall power and that therefore he whiche will exercise the one must leaue the other Io. Whitgifte I answere as I did to M. Martyr for he also allowed that ciuill iurisdiction that the Bishops in England did exercise in the time of King Edwarde T. C. 8 That the Sacraments ought not to be priuately administred nor by women The foresayd confession C. 20. holdeth that baptisme ought not to be ministred by women or midwyues to the which also may be ioyned the Liturgie of the English Church at Geneua which condemneth the ministring of eyther of the Sacraments in priuate houses or by women I Whitgifte These be néedlesse proofes yet are there learned mē of the cōtrary iudgemēt ow beit no man sayth that women may baptise ordinarily or that the Sacramonts may be administred in priuate places otherwise than vpon vrgent occasion and in that respecte no learned man dothe condemne the ministring of the Sacramentes in priuate places T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 11. chapter of the. 1. Epistle to the Corinthes in describing the corruptions of the Lordes Supper noteth this to be one that the Churche did not communicate altogither which corruption as it was in diuers places in tymes past so he complayneth that it is nowe Io. Whitgifte M. Martyr in that place speaketh agaynste priuate Masses and the complainte that he maketh is concerning them wherein we fully agrée with him neyther doe we like or allowe of suche as withdrawe themselues from the Lordes table when the Supper is celebrated You neuer loue to rehearse the authors wordes bycause they make not for you but gather collections of your owne contrarie to the meaning of the author as you do in this place which the Reader shall easily perceiue if it wil please him to reade M. Martyr himself in that place by you quoted And surely it is too great iniurie to wreste that to the order of celebrating the Communion allowed off in this Church of Englande which he or any man else speaketh agaynst pryuate Masses but such are your deepe and profounde collections T. C. M. Bucer in his first booke of the kingdome of Christ and. 7. chapter proueth out of the 10. to the Corinthes that the whole Churche shoulde receiue the Supper of the Lorde togyther and that the vse of the Church of God in this behalfe ought with great and diligent endeuour to be restored vnto the Churches and that it is a contempt of the mysteries not to be partakers when they are called Io. Whitgifte M. Bucer speaketh nothing in that place touching this question where vnto I agrée not he woulde haue the Communion ministred in the publike congregation who denyeth that except
it be vpon occasion of sicknesse c as I haue before declared he woulde haue all or the moste parte that be present to communicate and who defendeth the contrarie and yet if they will not the rest may not be secluded his whole drift is to reproue such as will not communicate and not to prohibite the distribution of the Supper to those that be willing be they moe or be they fewer so that there be a competent number that it may be a Communion T. C. M. Beza against VVestphalus sheweth that it is not decent that baptisme be ministred but in the Church and that at standing houres and by the ministers and further that vpō no necessitie as it is called it ought to be ministred in priuate houses And that if it might be ministred in priuate houses yet not otherwise than by Ministers Io. Whitgifte You vntruely report M. Beza his wordes he onely sheweth in that place what the order of the Church is where he remaineth he doth not prescribe any certaine rule for all Churches neyther is it méete that he shoulde in such cases He so speaketh of baptizing in priuate houses that he doth not simplie condemne it But what soeuer his iudgement is in that poynt his mynd is not I am sure to bynde all other Churches to the same which thinke and teach as soundly of this Sacrament as he doth or can do though they agrée not with him in all circumstances T. C. M. Caluin in his Institutions 4. booke chapter 15. sect 20. 21. proueth that baptisme ought not to be ministred by priuate men or by any women Io. Whitgifte Only ministers of the Church are y e ordinarie ministers of baptisme neither may any other chalenge that function vnto thēselues ordinarily but yet if vpon occasion a priuate person do baptise the baptisme is good and lawfull euen as the circumcision was true circumcision that was ministred by Sephora As I haue proued Tract 9. cap. 5. T. C. ◠The iudgement of those late writers touching ceremonies and apparell whose secrete Epistles M. Doctor alledgeth appeareth by these places following cited out of their works printed and published by themselues Wherof also some are alledged by the answerer to the examiner where are diuers other places to this purpose wherevnto I referre the Reader M. Bucer vpon the. 18. of Mathewe saith that they say nothing which do alwayes obiect that greater things must be vrged than the reformation of ceremonies thereby defending the reliques of Antichrist for as much as ceremonies are testimonies of Religion And that as there is no agreement betweene Christe and Belial so those whiche are sincere Christians can abide nothing of Antichrist Io. Whitgifte M. Bucer sayth truely for the reformation of ceremonies is to be sought and not to be neglected neyther can sincere Christians abyde any thing of Antichriste as it is Antichristes but what is all this to the purpose is there no reformation of ceremonies in this Church of Englande from the whiche all Antichristian ceremonies are abandoned and those that remaine purged from al opinion of Antichristianitie And that M. Bucer ment nothing lesse than the ceremonies nowe reteined in this Church of Englande as we vse them it maye euidently appeare by that whiche I haue alledged out of him Tract 7. cap. 5. the. 5. diuision and chap. 7. diuision 4. T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 10. chap. of the second boke of the Kings saith that the Lutherans must take heede least whilest they cutte off many Popishe errors they followe Iehu by reteining also many Popish things For they defende still the reall presence in the bread of the Supper and Images and Vestiments c. and saith that religion must be wholly reformed to the quick Io. Whitgifte M. Martyr nameth the Popishe things which the Lutherans obserue to be the reall presence images all the Popish apparell which they vsed in their Masse for so doth he meane which this Church hath refused What his opinion is of this apparell that we reteine I haue declared tract 7. chap. 5. the. 4. diuision where he of purpose speaketh concerning the same God be thanked Religion is wholly reformed euen to the quicke in this Churche T. C. Bullinger in his Decades 5. Booke and ninth Sermon saythe that our Sauiour Christe and the Apostles vsed their accustomed apparell in the Supper and that although in tymes paste the Ministers put on a kynde of cloake vpon their common apparell yet that was done neyther by the example of Chryste nor of his Apostles but by the tradition of man and that in the ende after the example of the Priestes apparell in the olde lawe it was caste vpon the Ministers at the ministration of the Supper But sayth hee we haue learned long agoe not onely that all Leuiticall ceremonies are abrogated but also that they ought to be brought agayne into the Churche of no man And therfore seeing we are in the light of the Gospell and not vnder the shadowe of the lawe we do worthily reiecte that Massing Leuiticall apparell Io. Whitgifte Neyther do we reteine the massing Leuiticall apparell but that apparell onely which Bullinger himselfe alloweth of in diuers Epistles written of purpose touching these matters as I haue expressed Tract 7. Chapter 5. the. 6. Diuision c. T. C. Gualter vpon the. 21. of the Actes among others bringeth this for one reason to improue Paules shauing of his head for that the Gospel had beene preached twentie yeares and that therefore the infirmitie of the Iewes ought not to haue bene borne with And after he saith that that teacheth howe muche the superstitious Maisters of ceremonies hurte the Gospell which nourishe the weaknesse of fayth by the long keping of ceremonies and by their long bearing hinder the doings of those ministers which are more feruent Io. Whitgifte M. Gualter in these wordes sayth nothing against any poynt of this Churche he speaketh truely and nothing to your purpose M. Gualter hath sufficiently shewed his opinion in these matters not onely in written Epistles but in printed bookes as in his Epistle before his commentaries vpō the first to the Corinthians Surely there is no suche weight in these authorities for your purpose that you can take any great aduauntage of them indéede your cause in my opinion hath won small credite by alledging of them ¶ Imprinted at London by Henry Bynneman for Humfrey Toy dvvelling in Paules Churchyard at the signe of the Helmet ANNO. 1574.
it is praesentia rather than absentia if you will beléeue learned writers Now if you will demaund of me who shal allow these causes I answer no one priuate mā of what calling soeuer he be but the magistrates to whome the gouernment of the Churche is committed if they allow the absence and the Pastor satisfye his owne conscience there is no man of God no good conscience no modest spirite that dare presume to iudge him much lesse to condemne him That he ought in his absence to prouide a sufficient deputie I confesse and that example of Tichichus doth proue that for he was Timothies deputie and not his successor as you séeme to insinuate M. Caluine saith that S. Paule sent Tichichus to Ephesus Ca. ▪ in 2. Ti. 4. whē he sent for Timothie to Rome in the meane time to supplie his absence So that he was but Timothies deputie Moreouer it is manifest that Timothie was oft absent Timothie oft absent from Ephesus from Ephesus twice with Paule at Rome and that he retourned thither againe this last time as well as he did at other times as both M. Caluines words before mentioned do declare and I also haue euidently proued in that place where I proue Timothie Tract 8. to be Byshop of Ephesus Chap. 1. the second Diuision T. C. Pag. 47. Sect. 1. But I will neuer weary my penne to confute those whome their owne * This is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mens consciences as God consciences are too strong for and confuteth euery night when they go to bed for that were nothing else but to reason with the bellie that hath no eares to heare or with the backe that hath no eyes to see Those that thinke that they hauing charges of their owne yet may go from place to place where they thinke it necessary and that it skilleth not where they preach so they preache must consider that if they thinke that God is the authoure of their placing in their flockes then that eyther their abode there is needefull and expedient or else that God did not see well and cleerely what was meete to be done in placing them ouer that congregation and appoynting that that congregation shoulde hang and depend vpon them for their nurrishment and good gouernment Io. Whitgifte A sore iudgement and presumptuous still I say tu quis es c. who art thou whyche The Pastor may preach 〈◊〉 mo places condemnest c. The rest of that section is builded vpon the petition of the principle for there is no man I think that so regardeth preaching in other places that he neglecteth it in his owne But I am fully perswaded y e God hath so called no man to one place that he hath restreyned him from doing good in other places also and I cōstantly beléeue that in the mo places he laboureth and doth good the more his seruice to be accepted vnto God And it is a token that he is truly called when he hathe an hartie desire to profite many All congregations of Christians are deare vnto God wherefore he doth not so much incline to any one that he woulde haue the other altogither neglected And therfore if there be but one good man placed in a whole shire I thinke that he is there placed to do good in the countrie round about him and that he ought so to do bycause they be all shéepe perteining to one folde but yet so must he labour generally that he haue an especiall care of his owne particular flocke Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 47. Sect. 2. And you see that if I woulde follow those noble metaphores of watchman and Shepheard which the scripture vseth to expresse the office of a minister with what a large field is opened vnto me For then I could shew you how that cities besteged and flocks in daunger of the wolues are Luke 2. * watched continuallie night and day And that there is no citie so sore and so continually besieged nor no flocks subiect to so manyfold diseases at home or hurtfull and deuouring beasts abroade and that without any truce or intermission as are the Churches the Shephards and watchmen whereof are Pastors or Byshops Io. Whitgifte I haue shewed before what your metaphors of watchmen and the pheards cā proue Tract 4. cap. 1. diuis 6. what dissimilitudes there is betwixt them and spirituall watchmen and Pastors I thinke your meaning is not that the Pastor should preach both night and day or that The metaphores of watchmē and shephards there is no continual watching but continuall preaching If I were disposed to dallie with you in your metaphores I could say vnto you that watchmen must of necessitie oftentimes haue their deputies or else that there must be many of them and so watch by turnes I could also say that assoone as the watchman hathe told the citie of the enimies approching and hath discrieb them vnto it he may depart from his station and take his rest Likewise that the watchman hath least to do when his enimies are nighest especially when they haue inuaded the citie for then are the souldiers to driue them away by force Wherefore by these metaphors this onely can you proue that the Pastors ought to admonish their flocks of their enimies discrie them in time and will them to be vigilant The enimies are knowen the armoure is certaine the citizens reasonable wherefore if they neglect the Admonitions giuen in due time and order if they be not vigilant their bloud be vpon their owne pates the watchman hath done hys duetie The like in all respects may be said of shephards and shéepe To what purpose you haue quoted in your margent the. 2. of Luke I knowe not Luke 2. except it be bycause it is there said that the shepheards were watching their shepe in the night The which how you can apply to your purpose I would gladly learne for these shepheards went from their shéepe and left them in great daunger Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Page 47. Sect. 3. But I will leaue that to their considerations and will shew that the partes and duties of the minister be suche and so many in his owne flocke that if he were as wise as Salomon was as great in councell as Ioseph as well learned as S. Paule as actiue as Iosue which fought so many battayles in small space yet al were little inough or too little to perfourme to the ul that which his charge requir th of him Of the Pastors therefore is required not only the preaching of the word and ministring of the sacraments whereof the preaching of the word ministring of the sacrament of baptisme ought to be continually and as oft as the Church may conueniently assemble the other sacrament of the Lord his supper although not so continually sor that the Church shall hardly haue so much leysure from their necessary affairs of this life as that they may celebrate it as ften
or Minister shoulde be learned in the mysteries of the Gospell and such a one as is able to set downe in wryting in his studie the sense of the Scripture but one whiche is apt and fitte to teache And the Prophete Malachie sheweth that he must haue the lawe not in his papers Mal. 2. but in his lippes noting thereby that it is necessarie to haue the gifte of vtterance And Esay the Prophete saying that God had giuen him the tongue of the learned doth thereby declare Esay 50. that it is not sufficient that he be well instructed in the mysterie of saluation but that he haue also the gift of vtterance Io. Whitgifte And why doth not he which readeth an other mans Sermon preache as well as hée doth when he readeth his owne What if he pronounce another mans Sermon in the Pulpit without booke doth he not preache bicause it is not his owne I do not speake this to defende any such ignorant Pastor that should néede so to depende vpon other mens labours I doe but put a case It may be that a learned Pastor hauing both memorie and vtterance sometime vpon occasion may reade a Sermon And I nothing doubt but in so doing he preacheth And surely he shall the more redily haue the lawe in his lippes if he haue it first in his Papers And yet if he reade he must vse his lippes Ieremie the Prophete as it appeareth in the. 36. Chapter was commaunded to write that which the Lord had commaunded him to say to the people of Iere. 36. Iuda and of Ierusalem and to cause it to be read vnto them and so it was in the open congregation and in the house of the Lorde in the hearing of all the people And so did Baruch in like maner write that which he had to say to Iechonia and to Bar. 1. all the people and read the same in the open congregation Bar. 1. and surely both these bookes were Sermons Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 127. about the middest Afterward M. Doctor asketh whether S. Paule did not preach to the Romaines when he wrote vnto them No forsooth his writing to the Romaines was no more preaching than S. Rom. 1. Paules hande or his pen. which were his instruments to write with were his tongue or his lightes or any other partes which were his instruments to speake with And S. Paule himselfe writing to the Romaines putteth a difference betwene his writing his preaching when although he wrote vnto them yet he excuseth himselfe that he coulde not come to preach vnto them saying that he was readie as much as lay in him to preach vnto them Io. Whitgifte Forsooth and I thinke verely that the same Epistle did them more good and wrought more with them than if the selfe same matter had béene preached vnto them and not written And if you will but peruse the. 15. and. 16. vers of the. 15. Chapter of that Epistle I thinke that you shall heare the Apostle call this written Epistle in effect preaching I do not perceyue that in the first Chapter of this Epistle he maketh any such difference betweene his wryting vnto them and hys preaching If you meane the. 15. verse he therein onely signifieth that so much as lyeth in him he is readie personally to preach the Gospell among them as well as he doth it nowe by his letters and therefore to say that this his wryting is no more preaching than his hande or his pen was his tongue or his lightes is a proper iest but not so apt for the purpose nor so fitte for your person A mans minde is commonly much better expressed by wryting than by worde and that which is written continueth Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. somevvhat past the middest But sayeth he was not the reading of Deuteronomie preaching No more than the reading of Exod. Here be good proofes It is generally denied that readyng is preaching and M. Doctor without any proofe taketh it for graunted that the readyng of 〈◊〉 is preaching al men see how pitifull reasons these be Io. Whitgifte And why then did God by Moses Deut. 31. commaunde the Priestes and Leuites that they should reade The wordes of this lawe before all Israell that they might Deut. 31. heare it and learne and feare the Lorde God and keepe and obserue all the wordes of the lawe Why did Iosiah after he had founde this booke cause it to be read before all the people if readyng had not bene effectuall and of as great force to persuade as preaching that is if readyng in effect had not bene preaching If the eight chapter of Nehemias Nehem. 8. be well considered and the true meaning of the. 4. and. 7. verses according to learned and godly interpreters weyghed and pondered this controuersie will soone be at an ende it will there appeare in expresse wordes that readyng is preaching These pitifull reasons so disquiet your patience that it woulde pitie a man to see how of a diuine you are become a scornefull iester Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 162. Sect. 2. Act. 15. it is thus written For Moses of old tyme hath in euery citie them that preach him seyng he is read in the Synagogues euery Sabboth day Where he also seemeth to call reading preaching T. C. Pag. 127. Tovvardes the ende And in the. 162. page he alleageth that in the. 15. of the Actes S. Luke seemeth to meane by readyng preaching But what dealing is this vpon a (*) If your seemings and coniectures were taken away there would be few reasons left seeming and coniecture to set downe so certainely and vndoubtedly that reading is preaching and then there is no one letter nor syllable that vpholdeth any suche comecture For S. Iames sayeth that Moses meaning the lawe read euery Sabboth thorough out euery towne in the Sinagogue was also preached or had those that preached it setting forth the order which was vsed in all the hurches amongst the people of God that alwayes when they mette vpon the Sabboth dayes they had the scriptures first read and then preached of and expounded which is that the Authours of the Admonition do desire and therefore complayne for that after readyng followeth no preaching which any indifferent man may easily vnderstande by that that they saye In the olde tyme the worde was preached nowe it is supposed to be sufficient if it be read Io. Whitgifte Surely the place of it selfe is euident neyther can I reade any interpreter that doth otherwise vnderstand it than of reading the occasion of vttering these wordes importeth the same For S. Iames doth vse this for a reason why the ceremonies of the lawe could not by and by be abolished among the Iewes bycause Moses was of so great authoritie with them beyng read euery Sabboth day in their Churches Therefore hauing the wordes of the Scripture with me I must rest in my opinion