Suytzerland and other nations which haue displaced your impieties and receiued the Gospell made they this change by the Popes permission and assent of his Bishoppes or else by the Magistrates ayde and assistance The first of these twayne you dare not auouch for God knoweth it went much against your willes then must you confesse the seconde and so those learned Preachers and writers which either at first perswaded and incouraged or at this daie commend and allowe the Princes and Magistrates of those kingdomes and Countries for remouing Antichrist with all his trinckettes out of their dominions and embracing the truth of Christ by publicke authoritie yea for reforming their Churches and setting an order in causes Ecclesiasticall as farre foorth in euerie point as her Highnesse hath done in this Lande all these learned and worthie Diuines I saie consent with vs in this that the Magistrate may lawfullie settle matters of Religion maugre your Romish Idoll and punishe errour and iniquitie by the temporall sworde as well in Bishoppes and Priestes as in others which is the verie summe and effect of this oth that you by no meanes can awaie with Phi. The chiefe makers of it them-selues haue iudged it either damnable or verie daungerous Theo. This no doubt is a vehement accusation if it can bee proued if it bee rashlie surmised then is it as pestilent a slaunder Goe to what reason leadeth you to charge the Nobles of this Land in this sorte Phi. The Barons exempted them-selues from taking this oth by a speciall prouiso Theo. What if they did not exempt them-selues but her Maiestie for the confidence shee reposed in her Nobles and for a difference betweene them and the Commons woulde not haue their othes but accepted their honours as sufficient pledges of their fidelitie will you wrest her Graces good opinion of them to their vtter and open diffamation Or what if some Barons of this Realme skant fullie resolued in that point which then was no wonder made meanes to bee respited for a season till they might be farther instructed which coulde not bee graunted to particular persons by name without infamie to them-selues and iniurie to the rest and for that cause least anie shoulde bee pointed at or distrusted more than others this generall exemption were deuised as most indifferent who but a wrangling Iesuite would inferre that the chiefe doers in heart condemned their own law You demaund how my supposals can be proued That needeth not your â—ile and infamous report is sufficiently confuted if I bring other better occasions that were but possible For where many good reasons of this exemption may bee produced why do you spitefully presume the worst and that vpon a blinde suspition without anie proofe Why doe you rashly coniecture their secret thoughtes which you by no meanes could know why boldly pronounce you that of Christian and godlie States which no sober man will suspect in Turkes and Infidels to wit that they met in Parliament to make wicked and bloodie lawes against their owne consciences And what if I coulde not resolue you whence this exemption first sprang such matters of counsell pertayning little to your vocation and myne yet due respect to their places which we shoulde not despise good triall of their wisedomes which we can not deny common charitie to their persons which wee may not purposelie diffame withhold me Philander and should haue restrained you from this lewd and insolent reproching the consciences of so many noble men worthie Counsellors except you could shew some iust and ineuitable proofe which you can not hauing for your vnhonest surmise no surer ground than this that the Statute doth not compel Barons or any temporal person aboue that degree to take this oth but exempteth them from the penalties of this Act prouided for others of meaner calling and lesse credit with hir Maiestie Phi. To exact this oth of most Officers in the Commonwealth and of euerie one that is preferred in the Vniuersities is nothing else but wittingly to driue men to pitiful torment of minde remorse and vtter desperation Theo. Why so good Sir Is this consequent that he which keepeth your men from degrees and offices driueth them to desperation Gape your friendes so mightilie for honor and lucre that rather than they will lacke earthly preferments they can not choose but veÌ„ter their soules No law forceth them to seeke for offices and dignities but only debarreth them froÌ„ such vntill they renounce that vsurped authoritie which your holie Father claimeth to commaund correct and depose Princes at his beck If any be tormented in minde for abiuring that vniust title which the Pope pretendeth blame not the Lawes of this Realme which you can not disproue blame the couetous and ambitious humor of those that for worldlie respectes would rush headlong against the perswasion of their heartes blame your odious and erronious whispering in their eares which hath troubled and altered their conceits that were caulmed and setled in quietnesse Such temporising hipocrites if any such be so vexed in minde as you tell vs which I scantly beleeue for ambition and gaine breed in them rather delight than remorse yet were they not thereto driuen by the Magistrate who proposed this law with condition and left them to the choise but their greedinesse first baited them next your secret buzzing in corners disordered their vnconstant affections and now perhaps foolish fantasie doth afflict them without reason of their partes or occasion of ours Phi. But to compell namely all such as you suspect to thinke it vntrue that is wilfullie to force men to desperation Theo. The time was when you and your fellowes cared little for driuing others to desperation The strange tormentes you deuised and practised on thowsandes to compell them from the confession of their faith without any regard of their consciences can witnesse the same mary now the sword is out of your handes you growe so tender and delicate that neither religion nor obedience may be forced on you for feare least you fall to desperation You can shift for your selues I perceiue what euer betide your neighbours but in sadnesse Philander where learned you this diuinitie that subiectes may not be compelled against their wils if they list to pretende conscience least they despayre Shall the peeuish opinion of such as bee frowarde and ignorant or to speake with fauour the priuate perswasion of such as be weake sâ—â—ppe Magistrates from yeelding that seruice which God requireth of them May Princes displease God to please men or breake the least of his preceptes to content neuer so great a multitude No doubt they may not For rulers in making their lawes must depend on the wil of God reuealed in his word not on other mens consciences Idolaters heretickes and schismatikes lacke not an inward and strong perswasion of their sects yet dare you not denie but Christian Princes ought to force their subiectes from idolatrie dissention and heresie
and other places at this day do wee not indure all the tormentes you can deuise because wee will not beleeue what temporall Lordes and Masters list Your owne conscience knoweth it is true that wee saie Why then doe you charge vs with this wicked assertion from the which wee bee farther off than you For you holde opinion of Popes that they cannot erre we do not of Princes Why do you father your owne fansies vppon vs Why d ee you purposely peruert the question heaping absurdities and alleaging authorities against that which we do not defend Phi. The oth which you take your selues and exact of others induceth vs thus to thinke of you For there you make Princes the onely supreme Gouernours of all persons in all causes as well spirituall as temporall vtterly renouncing all forraine iurisdictions superiorities and authorities Uppon which wordes marke what an horrible confusion of all faith and Religion insueth If Princes bee the onely Gouernours in Ecclesiasticall matters then in vaine did the holy Ghost appoint Pastours and Bishops to gouern the Church If they bee supreme then are they superiour to Christ himselfe and in effect Christes Masters If in all thinges and causes spirituall then they may prescribe to the priestes and Bishops what to preach which way to worship and serue God how in what forme to minister the Sacramentes and generally howe men shall be gouerned in soule If all forraine iurisdiction must bee renounced then Christ his Apostles because they were are forreners haue no iurisdiction nor authoritie ouer England A thowsand other absurdities are consequent to this oth which anon you shall heare Theo. Wake you or dreame you Philander that in matters of no lesse weight than your duetie to God and the Prince you fall to these childish and pelting sophismes What kinde of concluding call you this Princes onely beare the sword to commaund and punish ergo Bishops may not teach and exhort Princes be not subiect to the Pope ergo superiours to Christ. They may by their lawes establish those thinges that Christ hath commaunded ergo they may change both Scriptures and Sacramentes No forrainer at this day hath any iurisdiction ouer this Land ergo Christ and his Apostles fifteene hundred yeeres ago might not preach the Gospel Phi. We make no such fond reasons Theo. The former propositions are the true contens of the oth which wee take the later are those very absurdities which you infer vpon vs for taking that oth Phi. You would slip from your words which wee knowe to your meaning which we know not but that you shal not We grouÌ„ded our absurdities vpoÌ„ the words of your oth For if princes be supreme gouernors in al spiritual things causes ergo they be supreme iudges of faith deciders of controuersies interpreters of scriptures deuisers of ceremonies appointers of sacrameÌ„ts what not The. You might euen as well haue coÌ„cluded princes be supreme gouernors in al teÌ„poral things causes ergo they be supreme guiders of graÌ„mer moderators of Logik directors of Rhetorik appointers of Musike prescribers of Medicines resoluers of al doubtes iudges of al matters incident any way to reason art or actioÌ„ If this be leud irreuereÌ„t iesting yours is no better Ph. I promise you we iest not The. The more shame for you if you be in earnest to conclude so loosely Phi. Do you make princes supreme gouernors of al spiritual things Theo. You reason as if we did but our words since you wil needes rest vpon wordes are not so Phi. What are they then The. We coÌ„fesse them to be supreme gouernors of their Realms DominioÌ„s Phi. And that in al spriritual things causes The. Not of al spiritual things causes Ph. What differeÌ„ce between those two speeches Theo. Iust as much as excludeth your wrangling Wee make them not gouernors of the things themselues but of all their subiectes which I trust you dare not withstand Phi. I grant they be gouernors of their subiects but not in Ecclesiasticall things or causes They must leaue those matters for Bishops whoÌ„ Christ hath appointed to be yâ— rulers of his church And therfore your oth yeelding that power to princes which is proper to Bishops is repugnant to the lawes of God the church nature Yea it is an euideÌ„t error reproueable by al humane diuine learning that the souerainty or supremacy in causes Ecclesiasticall is by nature or by christian lawes implied in the right title of a temporal king or that it euer was due or can be due to any temporall gouernor heathen or christiaÌ„ in the world And if you will but giue eare you shal heare what a number of absurdities we wil fasten vpon you The. This oth is a great eye sore with you and I remember I promised to discusse the same in this chapter I will therefore first examine the chiefe parts of it and after you shall obiect against it what you can Where we professe that her Highnes is the onely gouernor of this Realme the word gouernor doth seuer the magistrate from the minister sheweth a manifest differeÌ„ce between their office For Bishops be no gouernors of countries princes be that is Bishops bear not the sword to reward reuenge princes do Bishops haue no power to command punish princes haue This appeareth by the words of our Sauiour expressely forbidding his Apostles to be rulers of nations leauing it to princes The kings of nations rule ouer their people and they that be great ones exercise authority With you it shal not be so that is you shall neither beare rule nor exercise authority ouer your brethren Phi. The word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they ouerrule their subiects with iniustice violence you shal not do so Theo. So your new translatioÌ„ ouer ruleth the word howbeit Christ in that place doth not traduce the power of princes as vniust or outragious but distinguisheth yâ— calling of his Apostles froÌ„ the maner of regimeÌ„t which God hath allowed the magistrate Christ â—aith not princes bee tyrantes you shal deale more curteously than they do but he saith Princes bee Lords and rulers ouer their people by Gods ordinaÌ„ce you shal not be so Again the word which S. Luke hath is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without any composition They be Lords and masters S. Paul confesseth of himselfe other Apostles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Not that we be Lords or Masters of your faith yea the compound 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is with power force to rule meÌ„ whether they will or no not with wrong iniury to oppresse them therefore the conclusion is ineuitable that princes may lawfully compell punish their subiects which Bishops may not This distinction between them is euident by their seueral coÌ„missions which God hath signed The prince not the priest beareth the sword ergo the prince not
betweene two Metropolitanes and that the confirming of Bishops be not long differed neither any Bishop remoue from his diocesse without the decree of other Bishops That no lay man presume to place or displace Clerks but by the Bishops Consent That excommunications be not ouer rife and for trifeling causes That euery Church haue a Priest as soone as the Bishop can prouide Item the Bishop shal looke that the Church of God haue due honor no secular busines nor vaine iangling shal be suffered in the Church because the howse of God is the howse of praier but that al men haue their mindes attentiuely bent to God when they come to masse and not depart before the Priest haue ended his blessing Because Canonicall profession partly for ignorance partly for sloth was very much defaced we tooke paines at our sacred session to gather as it were certaine sweet flowers out of the monuments of blessed writers and proportion a rule both for women and men of Canonicall conuersation which the whole assemblie so well liked of that they thought it worthie to bee kept without alteration and therefore wee decree that all of that sort hold it without failing and in any case hereafter obserue the same How we haue disposed touching Monckes and giuen them leaue to chose an Abbat of themselues and ordered their purpose of life wee haue caused to be drawen in an other schedule and confirmed it that it might stand good and inuiolable with the Princes our successors Prouided always that laymen be neither ouerseers of Moncks nor Archdeacons We heare say that certaine Abbesses against the manner of the Church of God giue blessing with laieng their hands and making the signe of the Crosse on the heads of men Know you sacred fathers that this must be vtterly forbidden in your diocesse Wee haue a precept in Deuteronomie No man shall consult a southsaier obserue dreames or respect diuinations there shal bee no sorcerer no inchaunter no coniurer Therefore wee commaund that none calculate practise charmes or take vppon them to Prophesie what weather shall come but wheresoeuer such bee founde either to bee refourmed or condemned Likewise for trees rockes springs where some fooles make their obseruations wee giue straite charge that this wicked vse detected of GOD be banished euerie where and destroyed Of mariage your demaund whether a man may take to wife a mayde that is espoused to an other In any case we forbid it because that blessing which the Priest giueth her that is betrothed is to the faithful in manner of a sacrilege if it any way be violated THAT our visitours looke diligently in euery Citie Monasterie and Nunrie howe the buildinges and ornaments of the Church bee kept and make diligent inquirie for the conuersation of all persons there and howe that which wee commaunded is refourmed in their reading singing and other disciplines pertayning to the rules of eccelsiasticall order Certaine Chapters as of incestuous mariages Churches that lacke their right honour or haue beene lately spoyled and if there bee any other ecclesiasticall or common wealth matters worthie to bee redressed which for shortnes of tyme wee coulde not nowe finish wee thinke good to differre them vntill by Gods helpe and the aduise of our faythfull Counsellers oportunitie serue vs to determine the same There bee sixe score chapters besides these recorded by the same writer of the lawes that Charles made touching ecclesiasticall Persons and causes which I for breuitie sake omitte leauing you to consider of them when you see your time Charles by these publike lawes appointed what doctrine should be preached what abuses in the Lords supper amended what parts of diuine seruice pronounced by the Priest and people together with one voyce what bookes should bee read in the Church what holy dayes obserued what memories of Saints abolished what woorkes on Sonday prohibited hee prescribed the Bishops their dueties the Priestes their charge the Monkes their rules hee directed thee keeping of Synodes electing and translating of Bishoppes ordering and placing of Clerkes paying and employing of Tythes decided what shoulde become of their mariages that were taken away by force or affianced before to others forbad the burying of dead corses in the Church banished Sorcerie Simonie Usurie Periurie last of all vndertooke that if any thing were wanting which needed reformation in causes ecclesiasticall it shoulde bee supplyed of him at his leasure If Charles had the regiment of monasticall profession episcopall iurisdiction canonicall conuersation if hee did I say medle with redressing errors in fayth abuses in sacramentes disorders in diuine seruice superstition in funerals othes charmes and such other matters as by the purport of these chapters it is euident he did what causes can you deuise more spirituall than these Will you permitte these thinges of most importance to the Princes power and except other of lesse moment That were notorious follie You must either inuest them with all or exclude them first from the weightiest For if they be gouernours of the greatest ecclesiasticall affayres much more doth their authoritie stretch to the smalest Againe these Lawes of Charles which amount to the number of eight skore and three what do they lacke of a full direction for all matters needing reformation in the Church of God Any thing or nothing If nothing then this prince gouerned ordered al ecclesiasticall causes If any thing that Charles him selfe assureth vs he would determine when occasion serued Choose whether you wil Charles either way shewed the lawful power of Princes to direct establish all thinges requisite to the faith and Church of Christ. For what hee promised aduisedly to doe no doubt hee ment it shoulde and thought it might bee iustly perfourmed So did Ludouike his sonne and Lotharius his nephew the next Emperours after him whose proceedings declare what account they made of these chapters and with what diligence they put them in executiō The monuments of so good Princes I may not ouerslip with silence their deeds did then profit the Church of God their wordes will nowe profite vs. Thus did Ludouike and Lotharius his sonne write to the Bishoppes and magistrates of their Empire You haue all I doubt not either seene or heard that our father and our progenitors after they were chosen by God to this place MADE THIS THEIR PRINCIPAL STVDIE howe the honour of Gods holy Church and the state of their kingdome might bee decently kept and wee for our part following their example since it hath pleased God to appoint vs that we should haue the care of his holy church and this Realme are very desirous so long as wee liue to labour earnestly for three speciall points I meane to defende exalt and honour Gods holy Church and his ministers in such sort as is fit to preserue peace and do iustice among the people AND THOVGH THE CHIEFE OF THIS MINISTERIE CONSIST IN OVR PERSON
yet by Gods and mans ordinance it is so diuided that euery one of you in his order and calling hath a part of our charge in so much that I should bee your admonisher and you all my coadiutors For which respect our intent is by other good meanes and by commissioners appointed for this purpose to learne and trie howe well our lieutenants fauour and execute iustice and howe religiously our Bishops liue and preach WILLING TOV ALL VVITHOVT EXCEPTION TO OBSERVE OVR COMMANDEMENT IN ALL THINGS AND HONOVR SVCH AS WE SEND FOR ANY OCCASION OR BVSINES EITHER ECCLESIASTICALL OR TEMPORAL AND IN RESPECT OF OVR AVTHORITIE NOT TO FAILE BVT PERFORME THOSE THINGS WHICH WE HAVE ENIOYNED YOV BY THEM Nowe the charge that wee giue our visitours is this First they shall indict assemblies in two or three places whither all within the limittes of their commission shall resort and there make it knowne to all men what is the summe and effect of their message to witte that wee haue appointed them for this cause that IF ANY BISHOP or Lieutenant can not do his duetie by reason of any impediment hee should haue recourse to them and by their helpe discharge his dutie and if the matter bee such as by their industrie can not bee redressed then shall it bee brought by them to our knowledge and againe IF ANY BISHOP or Lieutenant BE FOVND NEGLIGENT IN HIS OFFICE by their monition he shal be refourmed Wee charge them likewise to make knowen to all men the Chapters or Lawes QVAE GENERALITER DE QVIBVSCVNQVE CAVSIS STATVIMVS WHICH WE HAVE DECREED GENERALLY CONCERNING ALL MANER OF CAVSES and do their best to see them throughly kept of all men And if any of the things which we haue ordained and commaunded be found imperfect by some defect happily which they can not amend then shall they with speede make relation thereof to vs that we may correct that which they cannot And because the last yere our expectation was not satisfied in such sort as we looked for we will that this present yere our visitours whom wee haue allotted to this seruice haue better respect and care how euery man that we haue preferred to the gouernance of our people in his calling dischargeth his dewtie to Gods pleasure our honor the benefite of our subiects and this shall be the very course of their inquirie whether the things contained in our Capitular which we deliuered them this yere past be kept and obserued according to Gods will our commaundement Therefore about the midst of May next shall they assemble I meane our visitours euerie man in his diuision with all the Bishops Abbats Lieuetenants our fee men and aduocats the Abbesses and such as cannot come to send their proxies the liuetenant to bring with him his vnder officers and hundreders and in that conuent shall they first conferre touching Christian religion and ecclesiastical order next they shall inquire of our officers how they doe their duties last of our people in what concord and peace they liue And this inquisition shall they make so diligently and exactly that we may be trewly certified by thē of al these points And if any such cause be brought before thē which needeth their help according to the condition of the causes specified in the short rehearsal of our lawes then our wil is they shall go to the place and redresse it by the warrant of our authoritie You can neither bee so simple but you may see nor so partial but you must graunt that Ludouike and Lotharius behaued themselues as rightful superuisours of the Bishops in their Empire how they liued and preached ayding those that were hindered correcting those that were negligent in their ministeries and sent visitours to inquire and redresse by their Princely power any cause that needed reformation in Christian religion or ecclesiastical order commaunding all men generally to reuerence and obay them as wel in ecclesiastical as common wealth matters in respect of their royal authoritie What more than this doth that oth impart which you so much declaime against Or what lesse than this did Ludouike and Lotharius execute Can their proceedings please you and our words expressing the selfesame right offend you You must either reiect both or admit both they bee so neare linked you can not disseuer them I now make your selfe iudge whether these Christian and Catholike Princes were not commaunders and punishers those we call gouernours of Bishops Priests and Moncks in maters and causes ecclesiasticall Phi. I see they were but yet not supreme which is the cheefest thing that we mislike in your oth Theo. I beleeue you well for by that worde we denie Princes to bee subiect to the Popes consistorie which is the chiefest thing you respect Phi. That worde maketh them superiours to God himselfe for supreme is superiour to all neither Christes owne person nor his Church excepted Theo. Can you make such merriments when you be disposed Phi. Doth not the word inferre superiour to all or at least subiect to none Theo. Was it in question when this othe was made whether God should be superior to man or whether Princes should bee subiect to the Pope Phi. It skilleth not what was then in question these bee nowe your woordes Theo. By this cunning you may conclude all that euer wrate with pen or spake with tongue to be wicked blasphemers Phi. Why so Theo. Where the superlatiue is vsed by your rule God himselfe is not excepted And so these phrases a most wise teacher a most holy Bishoppe a most mightie prince and ten thousand such like which we find in all mens bookes and speeches bee meere impieties For they import that many bee wiser holyer and mightier than Christ himselfe or at lest as wise holy and mightie as he which is open inexcusable blasphemie Name me what father or writer you will and see by this art of yours whether I proue him not a blasphemer Phi. That is no right vnderstanding but a foolish carping at mens wordes For when we giue these titles to men sanctissimus potentissimus beatissimus the most holy father the most puissant king the most blessed Martyr we meane amongst men wee compare them not with God Theo. And since all men euen your selues speake so why doe you take that foolish aduantage at the word supreme which we vse as if we ment not amongst men but exalted Princes aboue God Phi. But the Church of Christ is not excepted and that consisteth of men Theo. If by the Church of Christ you meane the faithfull liuing on earth certainely Princes be not subiect but superiours to all Christian men Peter spake to the chosen and elect of God when hee sayde Bee subiect to the king as to the chiefe Paul willed Titus to warne not the miscreants but the beleeuers in Creta to bee subiect to principalities and powers and wrate himselfe to all the Saintes at Rome
was loth to sit iudge in his owne person for that he was not acquainted with the Church Canons which were then brought in question but at length when he saw no remedie himself sate in iudgement both after the Pope and after the Councell and heard the whole matter and ended it for euer This inferreth that at the first when he refused he wanted not power to commaund but skill to discerne more requisite in a iudge than the former Yea at the first when he durst not sit iudge himselfe for lacke of experience hee shewed his soueraintie by making delegates to heare and order the cause So sayth S. Austen the very next wordes For that Constantine durst not be iudge himselfe of a Bishops cause eam discutiendam at que finiendam Episcopis delegauit he made delegates of the Bishops to discusse and determine the same And againe causam Ceciliani iniunxit eis audiendam he gaue foorth a precept to the Bishoppe of Rome and others for hearing of Cecilianus his matter Now to delegate the Bishoppe of Rome with others and to giue fresh iudges after them is an argument of greater authoritie than if the Prince in Person had beene iudge in the cause Did not Constantine receiue that appeale which the Donatists made from Meltiades and assigne them other iudges His Epistle to Chrestus Bishoppe of Siracusas in Sicile whom he willed to be present at the Councell of Arle for the ending of the same matter is an euident proofe that hee did At the first sayth Constantine when this schisme beganne I wrate my letters and tooke this order that certaine Bishops comming from Fraunce the parties in strife called for out of Africke the Bishop of Rome being also there in their presence this quarrell should be throughly considered and pacified Mary for so much as they will not agree to the sentence there giuen but goe forward in their outragious dissention I must take care that the strife which should haue caulmed of it selfe at the first decision at least may now bee composed by the meeting of many Hauing therefore charged a great number of Bishops out of diuers coastes to assemble by the kalends of August at Arle I thought it not amisse by letters to require you that you fayle not to be with them at the time place appointed that by your vprightnes with the good aduise and full consent of the rest which shall then there meete you vpon diligent hearing what either side can say whom we haue commanded to be likewise present they may be reduced from the schisme yet during to religion fayth and brotherly concord as in duetie they be bound When Meltiades and his collegues sayth Austen to the Donatists had pronounced Cecilianus innocent and condemned Donatus as authour of the schisme raised at Carthage your side came backe to the Emperour complained of the iudgement of the Bishops against them The most patient mild Emperour the second time gaue them other iudges namely the Bishops that met at Arle in Fraunce Certes the taking of an appeale made from the Bishoppe of Rome and appointing other iudges after him and besides him strongly concludeth the Princes authoritie to bee farre aboue the Popes euen in causes ecclesiasticall or as you terme them spirituall Will you lastly say that Constantine sate not iudge himselfe in this matter as well after Meltiades as after the Councell of Arle S. Austen is flat against you Your men sayth he speaking to the Donatists appealed from the Bishoppes at Arle to the Princes owne person and neuer left till the Emperour himselfe tooke the hearing of the cause betweene them both and pronounced Cicilianus innocent and those his accusers to be malitious wranglers And againe the Donatists appealed from ecclesiasticall iudgement that Constantine might heare the cause Whither when they came both partes standing before him Cecilianus was adiudged to bee innocent the Donatists ouerthrowen To proue this I will bring you sayth Austen the very wordes of Constantine taken out of his letters where hee witnesseth that vpon iudiciall hearing of both sides hee found Cecilianus to be cleare For first declaring how the parties were brought to his iudgement after two iudgements of Bishoppes alreadie past there saith Constantine I fully perceiued that Cecilianus was a man most innocent obseruing the dueties of his religion and folowing the same neither coulde any crime bee fastened on him as his aduersaries had in his absence suggested And shewing what followed vppon this iudgement Then did Constantine sayth hee first make a most sharpe lawe to punish the Donatists His sonnes continued the same read what Valentinian read when you will what Gratian and Theodosius decreed against you Why wonder you then at the children of Theodosius as if they shoulde haue followed any other president in this cause than the iudgement of Constantine which so many Christian Emperours haue kept inuiolable Though Constantine bee dead yet the iudgement of Constantine giuen against you liueth For when Emperours commaunde that which is good it is Christ and no man els that commaundeth by them Lay these thinges together and marke the consequent First the Bishoppe of Rome and his assessours were appointed by the Prince to meddle with this matter as his delegates Next vppon complaint of their partiall dealing the Prince commaunded others leauing out the Bishoppe of Rome to sit in Fraunce to conclude the same cause Thirdly the Donatistes still appealing the Prince called for both sides hearde them in his owne person gaue small iudgement with Cecilianus and discharged him as innocent therewith made a penall edict against the Donatists Fourthly these princely proceedinges of Constantine the Church of God receiued with honor and vsed with gladnesse the Christian Emperours imbraced as vertuous and confirmed as religious S. Austen alleadgeth them as substantiall proofes for the Catholikes and effectuall iudgements against the Donatistes Now speake vprightly whether in this case the Prince were not superiour to the Pope yea supreme gouernour of Ecclesiasticall persons and causes To Theodosius the elder Damasus Siricius Anastasius as I shewed before made grieuous complaints one after an other against Flauianus for entring and possessing the See of Antioch contrarie to the Canons of the church The prince sending for Flauianus heard his answere and admiring the courage and wisedome of the man willed him to returne to his countrie and feede the flocke committed to his charge notwithstanding the Bishops of Rome for the space of seuenteene yeares before would neither acknowledge him for a Bishop nor communicate with him Of Arcadius his son Innocentius the Bishop of Rome requested a Councel for the trial of Chrysostoms cause but his petition was denied his messengers sent awaie with reproach as troublers of the West Empire Chrysostom banished farther off and this edict giuen forth by Arcadius the East Emperour against those that taking part with Innocentius and fauouring
euident that the christian Emperours did and might dispose both of Bishops and Churches therfore Ambrose could not be of that mind that princes by their lawes might not put Bishops from their Churches without their consents but hee brought this as a reason why the Prince at his pleasure without lawe might not commaund and himselfe though the Prince commanded might not consent Phi. You shift off S. Ambrose but Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius wil not be so shifted Of Constantius the Arrian Emperour S. Athanasius saith What hath he left for Antichrist for yet againe in place of Ecclesiasticall cognition hee hath appointed his palace the iudiciall seate of such causes made him selfe the chiefe iudge arbiter of our controuersies And who seeing him to make him selfe the ruler of Bishops and president of spiritual iudgements would not iustly deeme him to bee that very abomination of desolation foretold by Daniel And in an other place of the same work When was it euer heard since the beginning that the Churches iudgement did depend of the Emperours authoritie Or who euer accepted that for lawfull iudgement The renoumed Osius writeth to the same Emperour Medle not O Emperour in causes ecclesiasticall nor do thou coÌ„mand vs in this kinde but leaue such thinges to vs rather God hath giuen thee the Empire but to vs the church At the same time to the same Emperour thus saith Leontius the Martyr I maruel that thy vocation being for other things thou medlest with these matters Thy charge is of ciuil Martiall affaires only and yet thou wilt needes be president of ccclesiastical causes S. Hilarie also to the same Emperour writeth thus We beseech thy clemencie to prouide that charge to be giuen to all iudges of Prouinces that hereafter they presume not nor vsurpe the hearing of Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. You do well to put them together they all spake of one man ment one matter reprouing Constantius the Arian Emperour and that worthily for his tyrannous and violent oppressing the Church of Christ against al trueth and reason Phi. You would faine giue these fathers the slip as though Constantius were reproued by them not for intermedling with causes ecclesiasticall but for his iniurious and outragious ouerruling those matters what a mockerie that were Theo. Mocke not your selues and of our answere let the world iudge Phi. What is it Theo. We say these fathers did not reproue that in Constantius which the whole Church of Christ before them and after them for eight hundered yeres and vpward obeyed embraced and honoured in her Christian Catholike princes namely Constantine Gratian Theodosius Honorius Martian Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and others Phi. Who saith they did Theo. Doe you graunt they did not Phi. What if we doe Theo. Speake expresly whether you graunt it or no. Phi. We graunt they did not Theo. Ergo these places of Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius doe not impugne that which we defend but only traduce Constantius for his wilful and headie subuerting the faith and infringing the Canons without all regard of trueth or equitie They refute not his authority to commaund for trueth and punish error which other Princes had and vsed with the contentation and commendation of all good men but they dissuade him from the tyranny which hee shewed in confounding both the doctrine and discipline of the church to serue his humor and wrecke his anger on those that would not yeeld to his heresie Phi. You may not scape so we must haue a direct answer to the words which we bring Theo. I neede not answere them till you vrge them Phi. As for vrging that shall not want Theo. If I faile in answering take you the aduantage Phi. Be sure I will First then Constantius was reproued by S. Athanasius for appointing his Palace to bee the tribunal seat of ecclesiastical causes and making himselfe the chiefe iudge and arbiter of those controuersies Theo. We do not make Princes chiefe iudges and arbiters of ecclesiasticall controuersies Ergo these wordes of Athanasius disproue not our assertion Phi. Do you not make them Rulers of Bishops and presidents of spiritual iudgements which is that very abhomination of desolation foretold by Daniel Theo. Doe not you purposely clippe the text to drawe the words from their right meaning to your malicious intent which is a ready way to deface the trueth and vphould the kingdome of Antichrist For where the words are Quis videns eum in decerneÌ„do PrincipeÌ„ se facere EpiscoporuÌ„ praesidere iudicijs ecclesiasticis non merito dicat c. who seeing him to make himselfe the ruler of Bishops and the ringleader of ecclesiastical iudgements in decernendo what they shall determine may not iustly pronounce him to be that abomination of desolation which Daniel foretold you strike out cleane in decernendo In iudgeing or determining and would haue it a note of Antichrist to be a ruler of Bishops Againe where The vnderstanding of that which spoken must bee fet from the causes that moued meÌ„ to speake as Hilarie wel admonisheth you let passe al that Athanasius hath said in that long epistle for the confirmation of this sentence and explication of himselfe and â—â—ll out a word or two that may bee diuersly taken and thinke with a phrase of speach both doubtfull and generall to surprise a settled and certaine trueth Princes should not be rulers of Bishops if by this you meane that Princes shoulde not bee superiour magistrates to commaunde Bishops that which is good and forbid them that which is euill yea to punish them as well for ecclesiasticall as cyuill disorders Athanasius was neuer of that mynde his owne wordes expounding S. Pauls Epistle to the Romanes if those be his woorkes that carie his name are cleare to the contrarie Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers He teacheth al men sayth Athanasius whether it bee Priest Monke or Apostle to submit themselues to princes or rulers And speaking of himselfe when hee was commaunded to conferre with Arius not the first and famous heretike but an other of that name and tyme concerning matters of fayth Who sayth he is so besides his wittes that hee dare refuse the Princes precept His deedes are as manifest for when the Councel of Tyrus would haue proceeded against him for his crimes and causes ecclesiastical the Cotholike Bishoppes of Egypt that tooke part with him made their appeale to the Prince as I shewed you before and Athanasius in person fled to Constantine and desired the Synode to bee sent for and his cause to bee hearde before the Emperour What Athanasius liked in himselfe he might not mislike in others what hee thought to bee lawfull in the father hee could not thinke vnlawfull in the sonne hee doeth not now refell that in woordes which hee before approued in deedes you must so conster his sayings as they may stand with his doings or
Ecclesiastical causes Theo. Proofes go very low with you when you fal from Princes to inferiour iudges yet mistake your text For Hilarie beseecheth nothing of CoÌ„stantius in that place but that the iudges of euerie Prouince should forbear medling in matters of religioÌ„ with tortures violeÌ„ce The whole book the words before the next part of the same sentence ioyned to this which you bring with a coniunction copulatiue confirme that to bee the true meaning of Hilarie This is the right order of the place We beseech not only with words but also with teares that the catholike churches be no longer oppressed with greeuous iniuries sustain intolerable persecutions coÌ„tumelies that which is shameful eueÌ„ of our brethren Let your clemency prouide appoint that all iudges euery where to whom prouinces are committed which ought to take care charge of commonwealth matters onely refrain from medling with religion Neither let them presume vsurp think they may enter into clergymens causes force vexe innocent men with diuerse afflictions threats violence terrours Your singular admirable wisedome perceiueth it is not seemely it ought not to be that men should be forced coÌ„pelled against their wils harts to yeeld addict themselues through violent oppressioÌ„ to such as cease not to sow the corrupt seeds of false doctrine This was the medling with clergie mens causes that Hilarie ment and which he would haue temporall iudges restrained from and yet were his meaning neuer so generall he required nothing but that which Constantine the father of Constantius had by his publike lawes ordained al christian Princes haue since obserued to wit that Ecclesiasticall persons should be conuented before ecclesiasticall iudges For so Constantine decreed CoÌ„mitting iudgemeÌ„t iurisdiction ouer clearks to Bishops Valentinian the elder would haue priests to iudge of priests Yea Iustinian excludeth all secular iudges from hearing the causes of clergie men except it were for ciuill offences If the crime be ecclesiasticall needing ecclesiasticall reformation punishment let the Bishop determine the same the iudges of the Prouince no way intermedling for we wil not haue temporall iudges enter into such matters where as such faults must be examined ecclesiastically by the sacred and diuine rules and Canons which our lawes take no scorne to follow And though he bar ciuill iudges from the hearing of such causes yet doth not exempt clergie men Bishops nor others from the obedience of his ecclesiastical lawes as the wordes import that bee next to these Omnibus quae iam a nobis sancita sunt siue super sanctiss ecclesus siue super Deo amabilibus Episcopis siue super clericis siue super monachis propriam virtutem habentibus All thinges which we haue already decreed concerning the most holie churches and blessed Bishops and touching clerkes and monks standing in their ful force Hee quiteth clergie men from temporall barres but he bindeth both them and their iudges to the tenor of his ecclesiasticall lawes as well in their Synods as in their Consistories as appeareth at large by his 123. constitution so that this place of Hilarie might well haue been spared saue onely to make vp your tale Phi. Is this your opinion that Princes themselues may lawfully medle with Ecclesiasticall causes and persons though their inferiour iudges may not Theo. We say princes exempted clergie men from secular iudges but not from themselues And that Princes from the beginning haue medled with persons causes Ecclesiasticall wee bring you not onely fiue authorities that shall bee neither maimed nor wrested as yours bee but fiue hundred actes examples lawes and edictes that shall bee strong and effectuall proofes for this purpose Phi. You talke of cost when you saie fiue hundered Theo. Wee coulde far passe that number if the number would moue you to leaue follie but I will go an other waie to worke with you What good king can you name before or after Christ for 1000. yeares but such as medled with Ecclesiasticall matters Phi. Nay what good king can you name that did Theo. They be sooner named than answered Nabuchodonosor in making a law that euery people nation language which spake any blasphemie against the God of Sidrac Misac and Abâ—dnago should bee drawen in peeces their houses made priuies did hee not medle with matters of Religion Phi. Nabuchodonosor was a tyrant The. But being corrected by the diuine miracle he made saith Augustine a religious and commendable law for the truth that who so blasphemed the God of Sidrac Misac and Abednago should with his house perish vtterly Darius vpon the sight of an other miracle wrote to all people nations and languages that dwelt in the world with these words I make a decree that in all the dominion of my kingdome men tremble and feare before the God of Daniell The king of Niniueth hearing of that which Ionas threatned from God proclaimed a fast and charged all men to put on sack-cloath and crie mightily to God and to turne from their euill wayes and the wickednesse that was in their handes I trust you dare not condemne the king of Niniueth for an intruder vpon ecclesiasticall causes whose seruice so well pleased God that he spared the king and his subiectes from destruction hanging ouer their heads and yet fasting praier and repentance be causes meere spirituall in which the king interposed his royall authoritie by the councell of his Nobles and not of Ionas who departed the citie grieued and angrie with God for pardoning the Niniuites vpon their conuersion The factes of these three kinges I alleadge the rather because S. Augustine grounded himselfe vpon them as proofes that christian kinges may medle with matters of Religion and as patternes for them to follow Ye kinges vnderstand be wise ye that iudge the earth serue the Lord with feare and reioyce before him with trembling How do kings serue the Lord in feare but by forbidding and punishing with a religious seueritie those thinges which are done against the precepts of God As the king of Niniueth serued by compelling the whole citie to appease the Lord. As Darius serued by giuing the Idole into Daniels power to bee broken and casting his enemies to the Lions As Nabuchodonosor serued by restraining all that were in his kingdom from blaspheming God with a terrible law And againe WheÌ„ Emperours professe the truth they commaunde for truth against error As Nabuchodonosor proposed an edict for truth against error that whosoeuer blasphemed the God of Sidrach Misaach and Abednago should be destroied and his house dispersed And you Donatistes will not that christian Emperours command any such thing against you If the commaundements of kinges haue nothing to do with the publishing of religion and prohibiting of sacrileges why then do you signe your selues at king Nabuchodosors edict commaunding such thinges For when you heare it doe
cities of Italie doubled tripled to their vtter ouerthrow and by inciting the kinges of Fraunce England Spaine and Scicily to ioine against Frederike which thing Alexander the third a Cardinall of the same conspiracie with Adrian laboured for life to compasse Phi. Could you blame him Did not Frederik set vp Victor an Antipape against him chase Alexander froÌ„ his See Theo. Frederike did not set him vp but when two were chosen in a tumult the councel of Papia discussing the cause pronounced for Victor against Alexander their iudgement did the Emperor follow Phi. He might wel folow it for himself did procure it Theo. It is not true The Bishops of Italie Germany and other Countries were assembled by him and the matter committed as in the sight of God to their integrities and consciences The Princes words in the councell were Though I see the power to cal councels is ours by the office dignitie of our empire especially in so great dangers of the Church for so Constantine Theodosius Iustinian and of later memory Charles the great and Otho are knowen to haue done yet authority to define this weightie and chiefe matter I leaue to your wisedoms and iudgements For God hath made you Priestes and giuen you power to iudge of vs. And because in thinges which pertaine to God it is not for vs to iudge of you we exhort you to behaue your selues in this cause as those that looke for none other iudge ouer you but God This when he had saide he withdrew himselfe from the councell committing the whole examination of the matter to the church and to the persons Ecclesiasticall there assembled which were infinite There were fiftie Archbishops Bishops Abbats and Priors innumerable There were also the Embassadors of diuers nations promising whatsoeuer the Synod decreed should vndoubtedly bee receiued of their Realmes See their proofes and proceedinges of this councell in the chapters that follow and shew vs howe you can infringe them Phi. Alexander had the greater part of the Cardinals Theo. The greater part of the Cardinals had conspired to choose none but one that was and would be an enimie to the Prince to that intent had they taken an othe Adrian yet liuing After his death when they came to choose a successour the people the Clergie were as earnest to haue none but one that shoulde keepe the citie at peace with the Prince Whereupon the conspirators not daring to vtter themselues for feare of some vproare nine of the Cardinals the rest seeing and not contradicting at the importunate clamour of the people and clergie put the Popes mantle or cope vpon Octauian the Cardinall and placed him in S. Peters chaire and perfourmed all other solemnities of his inthronization with the great ioy of the whole citie the conspiratours which were 14 in number beholding al this and not gainsaying it or any part of it though they were present Twelue daies after Victor was immantled and possessed of the Popedom had receiued the obediences of the clergie throughout Rome the conspirators secretly departing the citie not so much as calling the rest of the Cardinals to their election by them-selues without the presence or allowance of the people or clergie set vp Rowland the chief man of their faction to be Pope named him Alexander This garboyle being brought to the Prince by the complaint of both partes he by letters messengers warned both sides to come to the councell that should be kept at Papia and there to heare the iudgement of the Bishoppes for the determining of this strife which Alexander and his adherentes vtterly refused These thinges were iustly proued before the Bishoppes assembled at Papia and sentence pronounced with Victor against Alexander What did Frederike in this case that a Christian Prince might not lawfully do in the like How could he do lesse than cal both parts to the Synod and commit the matter to the iudgement of the Bishops Or how could he but fauour and defend that â—ide which was now cleared and confirmed by the councell Phi. Victors election was faultie from the beginning Theo. If there were any fault in Victors election it was theirs that should haue presently protested against his ordering but in Alexanders there was neither right nor forme of any election They were ioyned in a wicked compact had thereto bound them selues by oth which by law was sufficient to forfeit their voices Againe their own silence drowned their interest when they would not or durst not speake their minds at the time place appointed for the choice Thirdly to their electioÌ„ they called not those who had right to be present to choose as wel as theÌ„selues therefore all that they did was vtterly voide Fourthly they had neither the consent of the clergy nor laity which by order duty they ought to aske Lastly they disdained the summoÌ„s both of the Emperor yâ— councel which by the canoÌ„s they should haue obeied and therefore might be depriued of the right which they had much more discharged from that which they neuer had Phi. The councell was not indifferent The. No more is any iudge to him that offendeth Phi. The Prince had no power to call the councel much lesse to summon the Pope Theo. You speake like your selfe Who called the ancient councels summoned the Popes to be present at them but Princes And why might not this councell cite depriue Alexander for his contempt as wel as the couÌ„cels of Pisa ConstaÌ„ce Basil did other Popes that came after for the like contumacie specially wheÌ„ as Alexander was yet no Pope but in strife with an other for the Popedome Phi. Platina saith Alexander had 22. Cardinals Victor but 3. Theo. So Alexander himselfe craketh whom Platina followeth but the contrary part testified that there were nine on the one side fourteene on the other Howbeit I stande not on these minutes of elections I note first the causes that prouoked the Pope his Cardinals to conspire against Frederike next the meanes they vsed to persue him and wearie him The causes were the setting of the Princes name in his letters before the Popes the requiring of homage of the Bishops stopping the Cardinals from spoiling his churches vnder a colour of visiting them Of these pretences and Frederiks answeres let the worlde iudge The meanes were the Pope did excommunicate the Prince his fautors gate Crema Placentia Verona Millan Brixia to rebel linked fifteene cities of Italie in a league with the king of Scicilie not long before his mortall enimie of purpose to withstand Frederike procured Henrie Duke of Saxonie to forsake his master in the fielde stirred the Princes of Fraunce England Spainei and the Venetians what they coulde to annoy him With these policies he began and with these he continueth euen at this present Thus your holy father with warres rebellions and
Theo. That doth rather fasten than shake my conclusioÌ„ For if Cyprian the Bishops of Africa when their cause was not good resisting the Bishops of Rome both in words deeds were taken accounted in the Church of God for Christian Catholike Bishops yea Cyprian the chiefe leader of them and most earnest against him for a worthie Father glorious Martyr how much more then in a right and iust cause might the Bishops of Rome be lawfully resisted in those dayes The which I may likewise conclude by the next example where the Bishops of Rome were not onely resisted but at length forced to yeelde to Flauianus although their strife with him at the first seemed to carry some reason Phi. Did they not wel to reiect him that was made Bishop against his oth Flauianus was one of those that were sworne neither to seeke nor to accept the Bishopricke of Antioch if they were chosen till Miletius Paulinus were both dead that thereby the Church of Antioch which before was diuided in two partes vnder two Bishops might be ioyned togither and vnited in one and hee vpon the death of Miletius whiles Paulinus yet liued not respecting his oth was content to take the place Theo. I sayde there was some cause for the Bishoppes of Rome to refuse him and yet notwithstanding the goodnesse of their quarrell and sharpenesse of contention which Damasus Syriâ—ius Athanasius and Innocentius maintayned against him all the Churches of the East of Asia Pontus Thracia and Illyricum tooke part with Flauianus defended his election and receiued his communion though the Bishops of Rome would do neither And Theodosius the elder a very religious Emperour hauing the courage and wisedom of Flauianus in admiration and seeing the number of Churches that did communicate with him willed him to returne feede the Church or flock committed to his charge Against whom when the Bishoppe of Rome made a long accusation the godly Prince vndertooke his defence pleaded his cause and exhorted them to knit their Churches togither and to leaue striuing and extinguish those foolish brables And so was the Bishop of Rome glad to giue ouer the quarell which hee and three of his predecessors had for the space of seuenteene yeares egerly followed against Flauianus How little Cyrillus esteemed the communion of the Bishop of Rome doeth well appeare by his answere to Atticus where hee vehemently diswadeth that Chrysostoms name after his death should be put in the Catalogue of Bishops notwithstanding Innocentius and the West Bishops would not communicate with Egypt or the East partes till that were obtayned Phi. It was a fault in Cyrill to be so vehement against Chrysostom in fauor of his vnkle Theophilus the chiefe doer of all this and that ouersight he after corrected by yeelding to that which before he rufused Theo. What moued Cyrill at the first to withstand and after to yeeld I neede not care you may not iudge were the cause good or bad to my purpose all is one this is it that I vrge neither Cyrill nor Atticus nor the Churches with them were reputed schismaticall for lacking or neglecting so long time the communioÌ„ of the Bishop of Rome though the matter they stood on were skant sound Phi. You should bring vs an example where the Bishop of Rome was withstood by a Councell the factes of priuate men carie not so great credit as when they bee done in a publike Synode Theo. The men that I haue named vnto you were no such obscure persons that you neede doubt of theyr credit They were for their calling and function Bishops and Patriarkes for their learning and holinesse lightes in the Church of Christ and are so taken to this daie Neither as you suppose were they alone in these actions but had the Bishoppes and Churches adioyning to take their partes and did these thinges which I spake of in open Councell Polycrates had with him a Councell in Asia when he resisted Victor and Ireneus had likewise an other in Fraunce when he reproued him Cyprian and 84. Africane Bishops ioyned together in the CouÌ„cel of Carthage against Stephanus With Flauianus as Sozomene writeth were the Bishops of Syria Phenica Armenia Cappadocia Galatia as Theodorete sayth all the Churches of Asia Pontus Thracia Illyricum besides all the East Churches That which Cyrill defended was done by two Councels allowed by the three Patriarkes of Alexandria Constantinople Antioche and their Prouinces And therefore these are no priuate men nor matters as you pretend but thinges done in open Synodes by no meane Bishoppes And yet to content your mind you shall see where the Bishop of Rome clayming farre lesse authoritie than hee doeth at this day was openly resisted in a Councell of 217. Bishops to his immortall shame and your vtter ouerthrow in this cause Sozimus Bishop of Rome sending his Legats Faustinus Philippus and Asellus to the sixt Councell of Carthage in fauour of Apiarius a Priest that fled to Rome for ayde against Vrbanus his Dioecesane which had taken both his function the communion from him for his lewdnes amongst other things gaue them in charge to clayme this prerogatiue for him and his See that if any Bishoppes were accused or deposed and appealed to Rome the Byshoppe of Rome might either write to the next Prouince to determine the matter or send some from his side to represent his person and to sit in iudgement with the Bishoppes And to proue this lawfull he cited in writing vnder his hande a Canon of the Councell of Nice tending to that effect The Godly fathers assembling themselues out of all Africa to the number of 217. and finding no such Canon in their bookes either Greeke or Latine wrate to the Patriarkes of Alexandria Constantinople and Antioche for true and authentike copies of the Nicene Councell and seeing their owne copies agree worde for worde with those that were brought and no such thing to bee found in any Canon there first by their decree cut off appeales to Rome and secondly by their letters traduced the Bishop of Rome as well for his ambition as forgerie Phi. An old broken matter often alleaged and offen answered Theo. You could doe litle if you could not crake but that will not serue your turnes you must spare vs a better answere In deede Bonifacius the second doeth answere the matter in this sort Aurelius praefatae Carthagiensis ecclesiae olim Episcopus cum collegis suis instigante Diabolo superbire temporibus praedecessorum nostrorum Bonifacij Caelestini contra Romanam ecclesiam cepit Aurelius once Bishoppe of Carthage with his collegues amongst whom was S. Austen with many other learned and Godly fathers in the time of Bonifacius and Caelestinus our predecessours began through the instigation of the Deuill to be malepart with the church of Rome If you take this for an answere so is it other I know
blood and bowels against them And therefore no maruaile if king Henrie relented somewhat of his former stoutnesse when the king of Fraunce the Earle of Flaunders the king of Scots the yong king his sonne and two other of his children the Duke of Aquitane and Earle of Britaine cōspired against him but it is euident that frō the conquest till the time these lawes and liberties stood in their full force and were publikely receiued and vsed in this Realme Phi. Did the Pope procure him these enemies Theo. What packing there was betweene the French king and the Pope though the stories in this place do not confesse yet we may soone coniecture by the generall drift of your holy Father his blessed adherents in those daies specially by the exāple of king Iohn the sonne of the said king Henrie whom for refusing the disordered election of Stephen Langton to the church of Canterbury Innocentius the 3. so terrified with open inuasion of enemies secret defection of subiects that for safegard of himselfe he was driuen to resigne his kingdome take it againe at the Popes hands in fee farme vnder the yearly rent of a thowsand marks binding himself his heires for euer to do the like homage fealtie to the Bishops of Rome for the crowne of England Which shamefull seruitude of the Prince vtter ruine of the Realme so much displeased the barōs bishops that before toke the Popes part against the king that in plaine contempt of the Popes keies curses they chose them an other king chased king Iohn the Popes farmour from place to place in despite of al y his new Landlord could do or deuise But this I omit because the quarel touched the right title to the crown I medle only with those resistances which the kings of England made for men and matters ecclesiastical Phi. I trust they were not many Theo. For the first hundred yeares next the cōquest it is clear the kings of this Realm would neuer allow their subiects to run to Rome nor suffer appeals to be made to the Pope without their expresse consent now shall you see what they which came after did When king Edw. the 3. reuiued the statute of Premunire made by king Edw. the 1. in the 35. year of his raign against such as sought to Rome to prouide thē of benefices other ecclesiastical promotions wtin this realm enacting the same penalty for those that by processe frō thence impugned any iudgement giuen in the kings courts or brought from Rome any Bul writing or instrumēt to those other like effects Gregory the 11. then Bishop of Rome vnderstanding therof was very earnest against it protesting this was nothing else but to make a schism in the church of Christ to abolish religion to subuert right reason infringe al coūcels speedily dealt with king Edw. to abrogate this law A schisme rising not long after in the church of Rome there was not a Pope that had any care of this til at lēgth Martin the 5. wrote more vehemēt letters to K. H. the 6. But these two bishops of Rome receiued one the same answer which was that an act of Parliament could not be repealed without the autority of a Parliamēt that shortly one should be called to that end which neuer after was performed Yea the king that came after did not only cause that law to be kept put in vre but increased the terror of it with a rigorous punishmēt which is that the party so offending shal forfeit his goods himself be condemned to perpetual imprisonmēt This writer an Italian born a man wedded to the See of Rome confesseth the Popes authority was abated restrained by the lawes of this Realm in the time of king Edward the 3. and so continued euer after that not only the Popes letters were twise refused but the sharpnesse of the punishment increased to strengthen the Statute that pared their power and limited his iurisdiction within this Realme Phi. Perhaps they wtstood him for tēporal matters Theo. The matters were such as your own church accoūteth spiritual to wit electiōs of Bishops gifts of benefices procedings in other causes tending as the cōmplaint of Gregory teacheth you to the diuision of the church extirpation of religion subuersion of al councels which you may not thinke to be temporall matters And this resistance which the Bishop of Rome so much repined at in the daies of king Edward the 3. neuer ceased till king Henry the 8. of famous memory banished the Popes vsurped power cleane out of this Land Phi. So did none of his progenitors before him Theo. It may be they wēt not so far as he did but as Polydor writeth R. Rich. the 2. wēt fairly towards it In a Parliament held the 14. yeare of his raigne the king his princes were of opinion that it would be very good for the realme of England if some part of the Popes dominion were determined with the Sea that is excluded out of this lād for that many wer daily vexed for causes which they thought could not so easily be ended at Rome Wherefore they made a law that no mā euer after should deal with the Bishops of Rome that any person in Englād should by his autority for any cause be excōmunicated that none should execute any such precept if it were sent him If any mā brake this law the pain apointed was he should lose al he had ly in prison during his life And where the pope trauailed by al means to ouerthrow the statute of prouisiō premunire the parliamēt held in the 13. year of Rich. the 2. for the better establishing surer executing of the law made it death for any mā to bring or send Bul or other proces frō Rome to impugn the same These be the words Itē it is ordained established that if any mā bring or send within this realm or the kings power any sūmōs sentēce or excōmunicatiō against any persō of what cōditiō that he be for the cause of making motiō assent or executiō of the said statute of Prouisors or premunire he shal be takē arested put in prison forfeit al his lands tenements goods catle for euer moreouer incur the pain of life mēber So the kingdoms cōmonwelths as wel as councels of al others Frāce England haue from time to time resisted your holy father in the midst of his terror tyrany P. You shew they did it but you do not shew they did wel in it Th. I need not you must shew they did il The prince by gods ordināce beareth the sword not the pope therfore the presumption lieth for the prince against the pope til you proue the cōtrary besids if bishops in a synod may lawfully resist him why may not princes in their parliamēts
Phi. It may Theo. Should corrupt false Religion be displaced banished and the spredders of it dispersed skattered Phi. In any case Theo. Ought malefactors against God as heretikes blasphemers sorcerers idolaters such other transgressours of the first table to be reuenged and punished as well as offenders against men and the breakers of the second table Phi. What else Theo. Can any man freely permit safely defend generally restrayne and externally punish within a realme but onely the Prince Phi. None Theo. Then if these things needfully must and lawfully may bee done for Christ and his Church none can doe them but Magistrates it is euident that the Princes power charge doth stretch vnto thinges causes that bee spirituall as well as temporall Or if S. Austens wordes do better please you that Princes may command that which is good and prohibite that which is euill within their kingdomes not in ciuile affaires onely but in matters also that concerne diuine Religion Phi. Did the Christian Princes in the primatiue Church since the cōming of Christ commaund punish in matters Ecclesiasticall Theo. If their examples do not concur with my former proofes good leaue haue you to beleeue neither if they do take heede you withstand not a manifest truth And here you shal choose whether you will haue a short report or a large rehearsal of their doings Socrates touching them all saith We therefore make mention of Emperors throughout this historie for that since they became Christians Ecclesiastical matters depend on them the greatest Synods haue been and are yet called by their appointment And Alciat a man of your own side Nemim dubiū est quin in primatiua ecclesia de rebus personis ecclesiast c. THERE CAN BE NO DOVBT saith he but in the primatiue Church Emperors had the iurisdiction that is the ruling and gouerning of persons and causes Ecclesiasticall Ius dicere referred to Princes is not to decide matters in question by law for so did Iudges not Princes but to make lawes and betweene lawmakers gouernors you can find litle difference for by publike lawes commāding good punishing euil princes do chiefly gouerne Then if christian Monarks in the primatiue church guided ecclesiastical matters persons by their imperiall lawes as this learned famous lawier putteth vs out of doubt they did you must shew when how they forfeited this power If it were thē lawful vsual how can it be now strange vsurped If there be no doubt of this with what cōscience do you not doubt but deny this Perhaps you disdaine the witnesse Alciat in euery respect was well learned in his faculty which was law deserueth more credit than the best of you yet least I should seeme to presse you with names not with proofes let vs view the proceedings of some Christiā Emperors and iudge you whether they be not both ancient and euident What power Constantine claimed vsed in causes ecclesiasticall the foure books of Eusebius other church stories describing the lawes letters acts of Cōstantine beare witnes sufficient First he gaue the christiās free liberty to professe their religion built them places of praier at his own charges entreated their bishops with all possible fauor honor Next he prohibited the gentiles their ancient vsual idolatries diuinatiōs oracles images sacrifices Heretiks he debarred not only churches secret conuents but excluded them also from the priuileges which him-selfe had prouided for Catholike persons If Constantines example deserue to be praised followed which no man except he be void of common sense wil gainsay then may christian Princes in the right of their scepter sword I meane their publike vocation charge without seeking any farther warrāt from Rome forbid wicked and idolatrous superstition admit and assist to the best of their power the preaching of the trueth sequester heretikes from the dignities and liberties graunted to good and religious subiectes for so did Constantine whose godly vertues and happie paines all nations then imbraced all ages since confessed all Princes now should imitate Besides this he did many thinges both for spredding the faith guiding the church of Christ worthy great cōmendation By my ministery saith this good Emperor mākind is brought to the keeping obseruing of the most sacred law by the seruice which I perform to God al things euery where directly speaking of things ecclesiasticall are setled in order yea the barbarous nations which til this time knew not the truth now praise the name of God sincerely whom they reuerēce for dread of vs. Towards the church of Christ he shewed an excellēt special care calling coūcels of bishops when any dissention sprang as a common bishop ouerseer appointed by God not disdaining to be present confer with them the rather to keep thē al in christian peace For his maner was in their synods not to sit idle but to marke aduisedly what euery man said to help their either side disputing to tēper such as kindled too fast to reason mildly with ech part vndertake iointly with thē to search out the truth confirming their decrees with his seal least other tēporal iudges rulers should infringe them When occasiō serued him not to gather a coūcel he did by writing aduertise the parties dissenting of his opiniō iudgemēt interposing himself as an arbiter in their cōtrouersies somtimes Prescribing the bishops what was profitable for the church of God somtimes the people to which end he wrot many letters emitting neither rebukes nor threats whē need so required Whē the coūcel of Tyrus was gathered by his edict he cōmāded thē first to discusse the truth of such crimes as were pretēded against Athan. who was loth to come before thē saue that he feared the thretning letters of Const. writtē to this effect If any which I think not in contēpt of our mādate fail to come before you we wil send a warrāt frō our roial autority that he shal be banished to teach him what it is for bishops clerks to withstād the precept of the chief ruler defending the truth Athan. the bishops of his part appeared but finding the coūcel very partial protested against thē appealed frō thē in these words Because we see many things spitefully cōtriued against vs much wrōg offred the catholik church vnder our names we be forced to request that the debating of our maters may be kept for the princes most excellēt person we can not bear the drifts iniuries of our enimies therfore require the cause to be referred to the most religious deuout emperor before whō we shal be sufferd to stād in our own defēces plead the right of the church Yet to preuēt the worst Athan. himself fled to Constant. beseeching him to send for the bishops examine their acts
endure for Simonie non residence wrongfull excommunication playing at tables resorting to spectacles ordering any Clerke without diligent examination or contrarie to the Princes ecclesiastical lawes in which cases Iustinian commandeth them to bee SVSPENDED EXCOMMVNICATED DEPOSED as the fault meriteth and his edict appointeth It was then no newes for a Prince to say Diuers complaints haue beene brought vs against Clerks Monks and many Bishops that some leade not their liues according to the sacred Canons others can not the publike praiers which should be sayd at the sacred oblation and baptisme we therefore recounting the iudgement of God with our selues HAVE COMMAVNDED THAT IN EVERY MATTER THVS DETECTED LAWFVLL INQVISITION AND CORRECTION PROCEEDE comprising in this edict those things that were before skattered in sundry constitutions touching the most religious Bishops Clerkes and Monkes with such punishments added as wee rhought expedient And againe OVR CHIEFEST CARE IS FOR THE TRVETH OF GODS DOCTRINE AND SEEMELY CONVERSATION OF THE CLERGIE THE THINGS THEN WHICH WE HAVE DECREED AND MAKE FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE SACRED ORDER AND STATE CONSONANT TO THE TENOR OF HOLY RVLES LET THE MOST GODLY PATRIARKES OF EVERY DIOCESSE THE METROPOLITANES AND RIGHT REVEREND BISHOPS AND CLERKES KEEPE FOR EVER HEREAFTER INVYOLABLE THE BREAKER OF THEM SHALBE SVRE TO BE SEQVESTRED VTTERLY FROM GOD AND EXCLVDED FROM HIS PRIESTLY FVNCTION Licencing all men of what sort or calling soeuer they bee that perceiue the least point of these our Lawes transgressed to denounce and infourme the same to our highnes that wee which following the sacred rules and Apostolike tradition haue commaunded these thinges may reuenge such offendours as they well deserue Farther hee sayth Our purpose in this present Lawe is next after those matters which wee haue disposed of the most holy Bishoppes and reuerend Clerkes to set a good order in monasticall discipline for so much as there is no kinde of thing exempted from the Princes inquisition which hath receiued from God a common regiment and soueraintie ouer all men and these things which concerne God must bee preserued from corruption by the sacred Prelates and ciuill Magistrates but most of all by our Maiestie which vse not to neglect any diuine causes but labour by all meanes that our common wealth by the fauour of the great God and our Sauiour Christ towardes men may reape the fruite of that purenes and integritie which Clerkes Monkes and Bishoppes from the highest to the lowest shall shewe foorth in keeping the sacred Canons our lawes prouided in that behalfe which constitutions by this our decree wee strengthen a fresh and ratifie Put on your spectakles and see whether Iustinian do not take vppon him to gouerne the doctrine and discipline of the Church the conuersation of Clerkes Monkes and Priestes and to commaunde Prelates and Patriarkes in the celebration of sacraments conuocation of Synodes election and confirmation of Bishoppes ordering of Clerkes and such like functions except our eyesight fayle vs wholy spirituall and in the iudgement of your neerest friends acknowledged for causes ecclesiasticall I will omitte what Iustinian enacted touching mariages diuorces legacies funerals incests adulteries and such like then pertinent to the Princes power and sworde nowe claymed by your holy father for a surplussage to causes ecclesiasticall and with that seely shift conueyed out of Princes handes who first vppon fauour and opinion of holynes and wisedome in Bishoppes gaue them leaue to meddle with such matters I will omitte I say that and descende to the Lawes of Charles the great Emperour of the West partes eight hundreth yeeres after Christ which Ansegisus gathered together within thirteene yeeres of the death of the sayde Charles In his preface of those Lawes thus speaketh that wise Prince Considering the passing goodnes of Christ our Lord towardes vs and our people and howe needefull it is not onely to giue thankes to God incessantly with heart and mouth but also with good endeuours continually to set foorth his honour and praise c. Therefore O you Pastours of Christes Church and teachers of his flocke Haue wee directed Commissioners vnto you that shall ioyne with you to redresse those thinges which neede reformation in our name and by vertue of our authoritie and to this ende wee haue here annexed certaine briefe chapters of Canonicall or ecclesiasticall institutions such as we thought meetest Let no man iudge this our admonition to godlines to bee presumptuous Whereby wee seeke to correct thinges amisse to cutte off superfluities and leade men to that which is right but rather receiue it with a charitable mynde For in the booke of kinges wee reade what paynes godly Iosias tooke to bring the kingdome giuen him of GOD to the true worship of the same God by visiting correcting and instructing them not that wee compare our selues with his sanctitie but that we should alwayes imitate such examples of the godly We see the reason why these Lawes were published and commissioners sent from the Prince to put them in execution now let vs examine the Lawes themselues and marke what causes they chiefely concerne Peruse the booke you will on my woord expect no farther proofe that Princes had then to doe with persons and causes ecclesiasticall If your leasure serue you not by these fewe which I will report you may coniecture the rest The first seuen and fiftie Canons are borowed out of such generall and prouinciall Councels as Charles best liked for example That no man excommunicated in one place shall bee taken to the communion in an other place That when any Clerk is ordered his faith and life bee first exactly tried That no strange Clerke bee receaued or ordered without letters of commendation and licence from his owne Bishop That no seruant bee made Clerk or Moncke without his masters consent That no man bee made Priest vnder thirtie yeares of age neither then at randon but appointed and fastned to a certaine cure That no Bishop meddle with giuing orders in an other mans diocesse That no Bishop veele any widoes at all nor maydens vnder the age of twentie and fiue That the Bishop of each Prouince and the Metropolitane meete yerely twise in Councel for causes of the Church That Priests when they say their masses shall also communicate That only the bookes canonical shall bee read in the Church That the false names of Martyres and vncertaine memories of Sainctes bee not obserued That Sunday bee kept from euening on Saturday till euening the next day with other such constitutions prescribing a direct order to Bishoppes Priestes and Monkes for ecclesiasticall causes Phi. These bee Canons of former Councels Theo. True but selected and deliuered by Charles to those visitours which he sent with his authoritie to refourme the Church and the rest that followe to the number of an hundred and fiue chapters did Charles frame by conference with learned and godly men at
submitteth himselfe to the Princes commissioners and offereth to amend all that is amisse by the princes iudgement This lowly submission importeth an euident subiection Phi. It was a dispensation of the Popes humilitie not any part of his bounden duetie thus to doe Theo. So Gratian the compiler of your decrees falueth the matter which is as much as if you sayde the Pope by right might haue commaunded the Prince but in a merie moode for once to make sport he would needes bee iudged and ordered by the Prince Is not this a proper kind of diuinitie when the Pope protesteth his obedience to the Princes power and lawes to say the Pope speaketh in iest his wordes are but a tricke of voluntarie which he may recall or refuse when hee will If such vnlearned irreligious and vnsavory shiftes may serue for good answeres you may soone defend what religion you lift It is a very short and easie methode to be rid of all examples and histories to say they did so but it was more than needed or should haue beene done Phi. In temporall matters it might be the Pope was subiect to the Princes power but not in spirituall Theo. No man can bee both a subiect and a superiour to the Princes power A subiect is alwayes a subiect that is at al times to bee commaunded and punished by the magistrate neuer to command or punish the Magistrate Againe Leo referreth him selfe in all thinges both great and small to the Princes pleasure and censure now a subiect in all thinges is superiour in nothing yet left you shoulde cauill that ecclesiasticall causes are not expresty mentioned in this place you shall see that the Bishoppes of Rome for eight hundred yeeres and aboue were suppliants and seruants not of curtesie but of duetie to Christian Emperours and obeyed their ecclesiasticall Lawes and edicts and were commaunded and ouerruled by them in the regiment of the Church as the stories that follow shall plainely declare Donatus and his fellowes pretending that Cecilianus could not be Bishop of Carthage for many crimes falsely surmised and specially for that Felix which layed handes on him had as they sayde betrayed or burnt the scriptures not onely refused his communion and procured his condemnation in a Prouinciall Synode by lxx Africane Bishoppes but in a tumult erected an other Bishoppe besides him diuided the people from him and offering a bill of complaint against him to the Proconsull of Africke made a request to Constantine that hee woulde giue them iudges to decide the matter The Prince carefull to keepe the Church in peace did authorize Meltiades Bishoppe of Rome Marcus a Clergieman of the same Citie but as then no Bishop Rheticius Maternus and Maximus three Bishoppes of Fraunce to consider their allegations and determine the strife Where sentence passing with Cecilianus the contrarie part appealed from the commissioners to the Prince This appeale Constantine might haue iustly reiected as made from his owne delegates but seeking all meanes to pacifie the schisme commanded a greater number of their Bishoppes to meete together at Arle in France there to sit in Councell a fresh about the hearing and ending of this quarell from whome for that they likewise concluded Cecilianus to be right Bishop of Carthage the Donatists appealed as they had done from the first adding nowe that if Cecilianus himselfe were cleare yet so long as Felix was guiltie which ordered and confirmed him his election must needes bee voyde The patient and mild Emperour seeing them twise conuicted and not contented but still murmuring against the Bishoppes as partiall and dayly molesting his eares with importunate suite neuer troubled Bishoppe or Councell with the clearing of Felix but appointed Aelianus a ciuill Magistrate to search out the trueth of these later accusations in a temporall Court where Felix after diligent examination was iudicially discharged and acquitted from all suspition of that sacrilegious abusing the woorde of God Then were both sides called before Constantine to receiue iudgement at his handes without appeale who taking paynes in his owne Person to sit iudge betweene them and exactly weighing what either part could say gaue sentence with Cecilianus against Donatus making therewithall a most sharpe Lawe to punish the Donatists if they persisted in their wilfulnes as dissentious schismatikes from the Church of Christ which rigour the Christian Emperours that followed did rather increase than diminish This I thought good to report out of Eusebius Optatus and Austen somewhat the larger that the circumstaunces being fully knowen the conclusion might the better bee perceiued I trust you will not denie but the strife betweene Cecilianus and Donatus consisted both of persons and causes ecclesiasticall The parties accused and accusing were Bishoppes the faultes obiected were iust impediments of episcopall dignitie the matters in doubt were the committing and partaking of sacrilege the right election of Bishoppes the lawfull deposing of them by Synodes the needefull communion with them or schismaticall dissention from them No causes can possiblely touch the regiment of Christes Church neerer than these wel then in these causes who was supreme Meltiades or Constantine The bishop of Rome or the Emperour The prince sent commission to the Pope ioyned other collegues with him receiued an appeale from him gaue second iudges after him and in his owne person pronounced finall sentence without him the least of these facts proueth the prince superiour to the Pope and all these did that famous Emperour and his doings in this case were very well lyked and accepted in the Church of Christ. Which of these things wil you now encounter Did not Cōstantine authorize Meltiades His commission is yet extant to Meltiades Bishoppe of Rome and Marcus with these words My pleasure is that Cecilianus with ten Bishops of his accusers and other tenne of his fauourers come to Rome there to be heard before you both ioyning with you Rheticius Maternus and Marinus your collegues whom purposely for this matter I haue willed with speede to repaire vnto you S. Austen debating with the Donatists what iust exceptions they could take to so many sentences giuen against them moueth this doubt maketh this answere Should not thinke you Meltiades Bishop of Rome with his collegues haue vsurped that iudgement which lxx Africane Bishops had ended What that he did not vsurpe For the Emperour vpon motion made by you sent Bishops to sit with him as iudges and to rule that matter in euery point as iustice should leade them This we proue by the Donatists supplication and the Princes owne wordes If S. Austen defend the Bishoppe of Rome from vsurping in this case by producing vrging a commission from the prince then apparētly both the pope was authorized by y◠princes power to giue iudgemēt in a matter ecclesiastical had bin but for that warrant an vsurper Phi. S. Austen sayth that Constantine durst not be iudge of a Bishops cause Theo. At the first hee
Chrysostom refused to communicate with Theophilus his deposer and Atticus his successor If any Bishop will not communicate with Theophilus Atticus let him be depriued of his church and his goods if they be laymen they shall forfeite the magistrates their dignities the souldiers their girdle the common sort let them be fined and exiled By Honorius an other of his sonnes ruling the West partes Bonifacius and Eulalius chosen Bishops of Rome in a tumult were both commaunded to depart the Citie and Bonifacius after he was restored put vp a supplication to the prince for a decree that no man by suite or other vnlawfull meanes might be made Bishop of Rome to whom Honorius sent back this rescript By the mouth of your holines we hill haue this knowen to al Clergy men that when you shall forgo this life which we wish not they may learne to surcease from ambitiō For if two striuing be chosen neither of them shall continue Bishop but he onely shall remaine in the See Apostolike whom the diuine iudgement and general consent shall elect a fresh out of the clergie This must therefore be kept that all may put on quiet and contented mindes by our gentle admonition and not attempt any thing by seditious packing since we be resolued that neither faction shall preuaile It was no strange thing in those daies for the Bishop of Rome to be suppliāt and subiect in church matters to christian Princes When Eutiches first broched his error that the fleshe of Christ in substance was not like this of ours Leo thē Bishop of Rome made this sute to Theodosius the yonger If it please your Highnesse to graunt my supplication to command a Councell of Bishops to be kept in Italie speedily by Gods helpe might all things be redressed which nowe trouble the whole Church but hee did not obtayne so much For Theodosius appointed their meeting at Ephesus and for hast prefixed so short a time that the Bishoppes of Italie could not bee prouided for the iourneie Yet Leo sending his Deputies excuseth his absence by writing in these wordes Although to bee present at the day which your godlinesse prescribed for the Councell no possible meanes doe permit neither by former examples is my presence required and vrgent occasions at this time suffer me not to forsake this Citie specially considering the point of faith which Eutiches infringeth is so cleare that a Councell might well haue beene spared yet haue I doone my best to obeie your graces precept in this by dispatching thither such of my brethren as may suffice for this matter and shall supplie mine absence When this Councell by the violent threatning and mischieuous packing of Diosco us Bishop of Alexandria there president had allowed the cursed opinion of r Eutiches and deposed Flauianus Bishop of Constantinople for proceeding against him Leo becommeth a fresh suter to Theodosius in most earnest and humble manner For so much as the Councell of Bishops which you commanded to be kept at Ephesus concerning the matter of Flauianus hath in sight hurt the faith and wounded all churches all the churches of these parts about vs al the Priests make supplication to your Maiestie with sighes and teares that it might please you to commaund a generall councell to bee held within Italie behold most christian and reuerent Emperour I with the rest of my fellow Bishops beseech you to command that all things may stād in the same state in which they were before any of these iudgements vntill a greater number of Bishops may be gathered out of the whole world This request of his he besought the Princesse Pulcheria to commend vnto Theodosius hir brother I haue written to the most glorious and christian Prince that for the calling of a councell within Italie time might be set and place appointed all quarrels and iudgementes past on either side for the meane while suspended which thing that wee may the rather obtaine I beseech you let your accustomed deuotion which neuer failed the church in her troubles further our supplication with his Maiestie The same Leo desireth the clergie Nobles citizēs of Constantinop where Theodosius lay to ioyne with him for the better preuailing in his suite Put vp an humble supplication I pray you with good aduise that the most gratious Emperour wil vouchsafe to grant our petition which we make for a general councel to be summoned yet all the prayers meanes that Leo coulde vse notwithstanding Theodosius perswaded to the contrarie by Chrysaphius master of his pallace who was present at the said councel of Ephesus greatly fauoured the faction of Dioscorus would neuer incline to graunt him any thing but alwaies refused his request If the Bishop of Rome might haue commanded thus much against the Princes will and with-out the Princes power what needed such lowly supplications Why did he make so great friendes fet so deepe sighes shed so many teares and all in vaine What follie was it to wast so much labour and time to no purpose when the least word of his mouth as you pretende might haue commaunded both Emperour and Councell But if for restitution of the parties grieued on either side to their first estates for suspension of all actes and proceedings past in three Synodes for indiction of a generall Councell to debate their cause the Pope were to sue the Prince to graunt as appeareth by the plaine confession and humble submission of Leo then you see that in the Primatiue Church of Christ the Pope was wont to come to the Prince with a supplicamus for matters Ecclesiastical and not onely besought him as his superiour with all humilitie but obeyed him in such cases as his Lord and Soueraigne with all dutie After Theodosius succeeded Martian who by the perswasion of the vertuous Ladie Pulcheria ioynt Empresse with him was content to call a generall Councell but as touching the time which Leo requested and the place which he desired the prince refused the Popes petitiō in them both I besought your Grace saith Leo that the councell which wee made sute for and you iudged needful to pacifie the East church might by your commandement bee differred till some better opportunitie but because you led with a deuoute respect prefer Gods matters before mans I labour not against that which your Highnes hath disposed yea rather I did with so great gladnes imbrace your Maiesties trauell to call a Synode for reducing the church to concord that although my selfe were a suter to haue it kept within Italie and a fitter time to be chosen that more store of Bishops might be sent for from the farthest partes yet so soone as your Graces writ was deliuered me foorthwith I directed some to supplie my roome When this Councell was assembled Leo began to make farther sute to Martian in this wise The second councell of Ephesus can not rightly be called a councell which apparantly subuerted the
not admit which they said against others Hee euer doth that which the Arrians woulde haue and they againe saie that which hee liketh And whereas the Bishops in those dayes were wont to be lawfully chosen by the people of the place and sufficiently examined and allowed by other Bishops adioyning and openly created in the church Constantius in steede of the church would haue his palace succeed and for the multitude of people and right of assemblies to elect hee commaunded three Eunuches to bee present and three of his spies or prolers for you can not call them Bishops that they sixe in his palace might create one Felix a Bishop And noting what manner of Bishops the Emperour and his Eunuches made hee saith In illorum locum iuuenes libidinosos Ethnicos ne catechismo quidem imbutos necnon digamos de maximis criminibus malè audientes modò aurum darent veluti emptores è foro ad Episcopatus summisere They sent in their places that were banished yong men leacherous persons Ethnickes not so much as taught the first principles of faith hauing two wifes and spotted with enormous crimes so they would giue mony as cheepe-men out of a market The furious violence that was vsed in the time of Constantius to driue men to participate with Arrians not onely by imprisonmentes and banishmentes but by chaining whipping scalding with fire trampling vnder feete stoning choking and secret murdering such as refused without all respect of vocation age or sexe was so lamentable that no christian hart can read it without teares and it is so largely described and pithily disproued by Hilarie and Athanasius that no man except he be blinder than a bitle can doubt whether Constantius were a wilfull tyrant in the church of God or no. Peruse the places and you shall find proofes enough of that which I say I proclaime saith Hilarie that to thee Constantius which I woulde to Nero Decius and Maximinian thou fightest against God thou ragest against the Church thou doest persecute the Sainctes thou hatest the Preachers of Christ and ouerthrowest Religion a tyrant not in humane but in diuine thinges a newe kinde of enemie to Christ the forerunner of Antichrist I repeate nothing rather than thy doings in the Church because I would open no other tyrannie but that which thou vsest against God And Athanasius shewing the reasons why hee calleth Constantius Antichrist Who seeing or hearing saith he these thinges who considering the rage of these wicked ones and so great iniustice would not deepelie sigh at it Who hereafter will dare to call Constantius a Christian and not rather the image of Antichrist For which of Antichristes markes doth hee lacke Or what cause is there why Constantius should not in euerie respect bee counted Antichrist Haue not the Arrians and Ethnickes as it were by his precept vsed their sacrifices and blasphemies against Christ in the great church at Caesarium in Aegypt As a Giant he exalteth himselfe against the most high and hath inuented waies to change the◠Lawe of God breaking the ordinances of Christ and his Apostles and inuerting the customes of the church And since he is cloathed with Christianitie and entereth into holy places there standing and wasting the churches Abrogating the Canons and by force compelling that his pleasure may preuaile who at any time will affirme that these dayes are peaceable to christians and not rather that this is a persecution and such a persecution as was neuer before and no man after shall make the like except that sonne of perdition which is the true Antichrist Howe thinke you did not these Fathers reproue Constantius for changeing the faith oppressing Synods corrupting iudgementes infringing the Canons barbarons enforcing the christians and shortly for subiecting all to his will and violence Phi. I knowe they make mention of these things but yet they reproue him generally for intermedling with Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. I hope they reproued him for that he did Phi. The case is cleare they coulde not reproue him for that hee did not Theo. These things which I last rehearsed Constantius did as I proue by their witnesse that chiefly rebuked him ergo Constantius was reproued of Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius for these thinges that is for playing the tyrant in diuine matters or as you call them in causes Ecclesiasticall Phi. But Osius saith Medle not O Emperour in causes Ecclesiastical nor do thou commaund vs in that kind but leaue such things to vs rather Theo. You were answered before but that you wil neuer be satisfied Osius dissuadeth Constantius from vsing his absolute power obstinate wil in those things that were then in question betwixt the Christians Arians He saw the manifolde and excessiue disorders of Constantius in forcing Synodes of Bishops by terror and violence to bow at his becke in making his palace a consistorie for their causes and there iudging what his Eunuches would in dissoluing the ordinances of Christ and his Apostles and doing all thinges against the Rules of the church and therefore had good cause to saie Ne te misceas ecclesiasticis neque nobis in hoc genere praecipe sed potius ea a nobis disce Enterpose not thy selfe as thou doest O Emperour in Ecclesiasticall matters neither commaund vs in this kinde but learne such things rather of vs and not as you say leaue such things rather to vs. God hath cōmitted the Empire to thee to vs the things of the church as he that enuieth thine Empire contradicteth the ordinance of God so take thou heede least drawing vnto thy selfe the things of the church thou be guilty of great sinne It is written Giue vnto Caesar that which is Caesars vnto God that which is Gods It is therefore neither lawfull for vs to holde a kingdome on earth neither hast thou power O Prince ouer sacrifices sacred things These words put a difference between the function of Priestes Princes shew that neither may intrude with ech others charge which we confesse with a good wil. But as Priestes must teach truth and conuict error that is their office so princes must commaund for truth and punish error because publike authoritie to commaund and punish is not the Priestes but the Princes right where-with Priestes must not meddle Phi. Yet the Prince must learne at the Priestes hande which is truth and which error Theo. If the Priest teach truth and the Prince reiect it the Prince shal answere to God for the cōtempt of truth but if the priest teach error in steed of truth a godly prince hath lawful power to banish the doctrine punish the teacher Phi. And if the Prince saie that truth is error error is truth shall truth be banished and the Priest punished vpon the Princes saying Theo. And what if the Priest saie that light is darkenesse and darkenesse light shall Princes be excused before God for
you not answere Amen and saying so with a loud voice do you not signe your selues in the holie solemnitie at the kinges edict What Moses Iosua Dauid Salomon Asa Iehosaphat Ezechias Manasses Iosias Nehemias did for the planting preseruing and purging of true religion and how they commaunded reproued and punished as well Priestes as others for spirituall crimes and causes the places are infinite and witnessed in no worse recordes than the Scriptures themselues I will not touch them all but onely shew that euery one of these in their times raignes medled with Ecclesiasticall men and matters which is the point that you would impugne by your allegations Moses the ciuill Magistrate reproued Aaron the high Priest for making the golden calfe and stamping it to powder cast it into the water that Israell might drinke it and in one daie put three thowsand of them for that idolatrie to the sworde And after the rebellion of Corah when the residue were plagued for murmuring against Moses and Aaron Moses commaunded Aarō to take the censer and stand betweene the liuing and the dead to make attonement for the people And as during life Moses guided ruled them in al things both spiritual and temporal so readie to depart he carefully warned and finally blessed the twelue tribes of Israell Iosua that succeeded him a Prince not a Priest was charged by God to meditate in the booke of the law day night that thou maiest obserue saith God and do according to all that is written therein and the people receiued him with this submission As we obeied Moses in all things so will we obey thee Whosoeuer shall rebell against thy commaundement and will not obey thy wordes in all that thou commandest him let him be put to death And least you should thinke that he commaunded in nothing but temporall matters he circumcised the sonnes of Israell erected an Altar of stone for their offerings read the whole law to them there was not a word of all that Moses commaunded which Iosua read not before all the congregation searched and punished the concealer of thinges dedicated to idols not long before he died in his owne person renewed the couenant betweene God and the people caused them to put away the strange Gods that were among them insomuch that by his diligent care and good regiment Israell serued the Lord all the dayes of Iosua How far king Dauid medled with matters of religion if the Psalmes which he made for Asaph and his brethren to sing in assemblies and order which hee set for the whole seruice of the Temple appointing the Priestes Leuites Singers and other Seruitours of the church their dignities courses and offices did not declare the charge which he gaue to king Salomon his sonne and the praise which he gate at Gods handes for the faithfull execution and religious obseruation of his law giuen by Moses in all thinges and causes both spirituall and temporall are sufficient euidence Take heede to the charge of the Lord thy God saith Dauid to Salomon to walke in his waies and keepe his statutes his commaundementes and his iudgementes and his testimonies as it is written in the law of Moses This God himselfe repeated to Salomō proposing Dauid his father for a paterne vnto him If thou wilt walke before me as Dauid thy father walked in purenesse of heart and vprightnes to doe according to all that I haue commaunded thee and keepe my statutes and my iudgementes I will establish the throne of thy kingdom vpon Israell for euer Phi. Do these wordes proue that Dauid did or Salomon might medle with Ecclesiasticall matters Theo. These places and such like doe fully proue that the Kinges and Gouernours of Israell and Iudah were appointed by God himselfe to haue the custodie charge and ouersight of all thinges mentioned and expressed in Moses law Here you see the wordes are to do according to all that I haue commaunded thee and keepe my statutes and iudgementes To Iosua God saide that thou maiest obserue and doe according to all that is written in the booke of the Law and likewise of the king in generall The booke of the Law shall be with him and he shal read therein all the daies of his life that he may learne to keepe all the wordes of this Law and these ordinances to fulfill them The king was charged with all the wordes and ordinances of Moses Law the law of Moses contained al thinges which God required of Priestes or people both spirituall and temporall ergo the king was charged by God himselfe as well with all Ecclesiasticall thinges and causes as with Temporall And consequently Dauid and all other kinges that discharged their duties to God in such sort as hee inioyned them medled with all thinges and causes Ecclesiasticall and Temporall Phi. Frame your argument shorter Theo. They were charged with all ergo they should medle with all and some discharged their dueties to God for example such as were commended and fauored by God whom I before named ergo some did medle with al the preceptes of God both Ecclesiastical and Temporall Phi. They were charged to obserue the whole Law as all other men were Theo. They were charged for their owne persons as all priuate men were but as kinges they were charged for others in such manner as no subiect coulde be charged namely to see the lawe of God to be publikely receiued fully obserued within their Realmes and all other sortes of Religion and policie to bee cleane forbidden and banished Phi. This is your surmise Theo. It is S. Augustines maine collection in sundrie places fet from the verie Principles of reason and nature and confirmed by the warrant of the sacred Scriptures The king serueth God saith Saint Augustine As a man one waie as a king an other way As a man by liuing faithfully as a king by makeing Lawes with conuenient vigor to commaund that which is right forbid the contrarie And againe Kinges euen in that they be kinges haue to serue the Lord in such sort as none can do which are not kinges For kings in respect as they be kinges serue the Lord if in their kingdomes they cōmaund that which is good and forbid that which is euill How then saith he do kinges serue the Lord but by forbidding and punishing with a religious seueritie those thinges that are done against the commaundementes of the Lord And thus much the verie deriuation of the name doth inferre Rex à regendo dicitur a king is he that ruleth others and the relation of the worde doth teach vs there can be no king but in respect of his subiectes and his duetie towardes them is to direct and correct that is to commaund and punish in all thinges needefull Phi. What conclude you of all this Theo. That where God chargeth the king to keepe and obserue
the time long the Princes wise the factes knowen the Church of Christ honoured and obeyed those decrees It is no doubtfull question but a manifest trueth that the best Princes before Christ and after Christ for many yeares medled with the reformation of the Church and prescribed lawes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall S. Augustine accompteth them not vsurpers as you doe but happie Princes that imployed their authoritie to delate and spreade the true worshippe of God as much as they coulde and auoucheth plainely that God him-selfe speaketh and commaundeth by the mouthes and heartes of Princes when they commaunde in matters of Religion that which is good and whosoeuer resisteth their Ecclesiasticall Lawes made for trueth shall bee grieuouslie plagued at Gods handes Imperatores felices dicimus si suam potestatem ad DEI cultum maximè dilatandum maiestatis eius famulam faciunt Wee count Princes blessed if they bende their power to doe God seruice for the spreading of his true worshippe as much as they can Hoc iubent imperatores quod iubet Christus quia cum bonum iubent per illos non iubet nisi Christus Emperours commaunde the selfe-same that Christ doeth because when they commaunde that which is good it is Christ him-selfe that commaundeth by them And â— little after Attendite qua manifestissima veritate per cor regis quod in manu Dei est ipse Deus dixerat inista ipsa lege quam contra vos prolatam dicitis Marke yee with howe manifest trueth by the Kinges heart which is in Gods hande GOD himselfe spake in that verie Lawe which you saie was made against you And therefore hee concludeth Quicunque legibus Impâ—ratorum quae pro Dei veritate feruntur obtemporare non vult grande acquirit supplicium Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Princes which are made for the truth of God is sure to beare an heauie iudgement The Princes themselues will teach you that by their power they may by their charge they should medle with matters Ecclesiasticall The authority of our lawes saith Iustinian disposeth diuine and humane thinges Thence is it that we take greatest care for the true religion of God and honest conuersation of Priestes So likewise Theodosius and Valentinian Ea quae circa Catholicam fidem vel ordinauit antiquit as vel parentum nostrorum authoritas religiosa constituit vel nostra Serenitas roborauit nouella superstitione remota integra inuiolata custodire praecipimus Those thinges which ancient Princes haue ordained or the religious authoritie of our Progenitours decreed or our highnesse established concerning the catholike faith wee commaund you to keepe them firme and inuiolable all latter superstition remoued And this they recken to be the first part of their Princely charge Inter caeteras sollicitudines quas amor publicus peruigili nobis cogitatione indixit praecipuam Imperatoriae maiestatis curam esse praecipimus verae religionis indaginem Among the rest of those dueties which the common-wealth exacteth at our handes we perceiue the inquirie of true religion should be the chiefest care of our Princely calling Valentinian the elder though at first hee refused to deale with profound questions of religion yet after hee was content to enterpose his authoritie with others and to commaund that the faith of the Trinitie should be rightly preached the Sacrament of Baptisme by no meanes doubled The blessed Bishops saith he with Valens Gratian haue made demonstration that the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost be a Trinitie coessentiall nostra potentia eandem praedicari mandauit and our power hath commaunded the same truth to be preached And againe The bishop which shall reiterate holy Baptisme we count vnworthy of his place For wee condemne their error which treading the Apostolike preceptes vnder their feete doe not clense but rather defile those with a second washing that are once alreadie baptized Zeno seeking to reconcile the Bishops Clerkes Monkes and people of Egypt and Alexandria to the Nicene faith beginneth with these wordes For so much as wee know that onely faith which is right and syncere to bee the grounde staie strength and inuincible defence of our Empire wee haue alwaies emploied our desires endeuours and lawes that thereby wee might multiplie the holie Catholike and Apostolike church the perpetuall and vndefiled mother of our Scepter And Iustinus nephewe to Iustinian writing a publike Edict to all Christians concerning manie pointes of true Religion maketh his conclusion with these wordes Omnes eos qui contraria hijsce vel sentiunt vel sensuri sunt Anathemate damnamus alienos à sancta Dei Catholica Apostolica Ecclesia iudicamus Wee condemne them all as accursed that presentlie doe or hereafter shall thinke contrarie to these things we adiudge to haue no part in the holy Catholike and Apostolike Church of God This care to prouide and power to commaund for matters of religioÌ„ Princes as well in this realme as els where continued a thousand yeres after Christ. The Bishop of Rome himselfe 850 yeres after Christ promiseth all kind of obedience to the chapters and lawes ecclesiasticall of Lotharius his ancestours In Greece the Emperours lost not their authoritie to call Councels and establish trueth till they lost Empire and all More than thirtine hundred yeres after Christ Nicephorus highly commendeth a Greeke Emperour for his labors and endeuours in the Church affaires You haue saith he to the Prince restored the Catholike and vniuersal Church to her auncient state that was troubled with nouelties impure and vnsound doctrine you haue banished from her you haue purged the temple from heretikes that were corrupters and deprauers of heauenly doctrine not so much with a three corded whippe as with the worde of trueth You haue established the faith and made constitutions for it you haue walled about true godlines with mightie defences you haue repaired that which was ruinous Priestly vnction decaied you haue made purer than gold and by lawes and letters taught them sobriety of life and contempt of mony Wherefore their order is now sacred in the common wealth which in former times was degenerated infected with corruption of discipline and manners Yea when you sawe our true religion brought in danger by false and absurd doctrines you did most zealously and most wisely vndertake the defence of it And knowing very well that piety of it selfe the diligent care of Gods causes are the surest proppes of an Empire you tooke a diuine and passing wise course For by medling with these matters of religion you wanne great thankes of God and gaue him iust cause to bee fauorable to your praiers to direct al your doings and confirme and setle the Empire in your hands Canutus a King of this land not full 32 yeres before the conquest apparently proueth that Princes kept their authoritie to commaund for matters of religion more than a
thousand yeeres after Christ. His lawes made by a Councel of his sages at Winchester are yet extant Heare some of them and then tell vs whether he did meddle with ecclesiastical causes or no. First he commaundeth all men to loue one God for euer aboue all things and one rule of Christian religion wel and aduisedly to hold Item he willeth al men to discharge their functions specially the seruants of god Bishops Abbots Moncks Canons Nonnes to do their duties to liue according to their rules to make their praiers night and day for all Christian folke Item hee biddeth and on Gods behalf forbiddeth that any Christian man take to wife a kinsewoman within six degrees or his wiues kinswoman or his Godmother at the font or a professed Nonne or a diuorced woman or keepe harlots or haue mo wiues than one and that in lawfull mariage Item that holy dayes and fasting dayes be kept Sunday be kept holy from saturday noone till munday morning Fayres Courts huntings and worldly woorkes on that day to bee forborne Item that all fasts which bee bidden ember dayes and Lent bee kept and the feasts of our Lady and the Apostles to bee fasted saue Philip and Iacob euery friday to bee fasted except it bee holy day and no man to fast from Easter to Whitsuntide or from Christmas to the Octaues of the Epiphanie vnlesse hee will or it bee enioyned him Item that euery Christian prepare himselfe for the communion thrise a yere And truely keepe his othe and promise and loue God with an inward reuerence and heare diligently heauenly teachers and oft and many times search and looke on Gods Law his dictrine Item that euery Christian man learne so much that hee can the true fayth and the true vnderstanding thereof namely the Lordes prayer and the Creede Or else not to haue Christian buriall neither to bee admitted whiles he lyueth to the Lordes table nor to vndertake for others at the font or before the Bishoppe Item that Bishops be preachers and teachers of Gods Lawe and carefull followers of goodwoorkes Item that Witches sorcerers Idolaters periures strumpets breakers of order and wedlocke be banished the realme with other Lawes for tythes temples Church rightes trial of Clergie men accused and such like dueties and offences ecclesiasticall Phi. You presse me with a number of places that proue nothing against vs directly Theo. Take the weakest of them and see whether it will not inferre that Princes medled with causes ecclesiasticall Phi. We knowe they medled with them but not as supreme Gouernours of them Theo. I brought these places to refell that generall obiection which you framed out of Osius Leontius and others that Princes shoulde not medle with causes ecclesiasticall If you graunt they did and might lawfully meddle with such matters as the places which I bring do proue then by your owne confession Constantius was not reproued for medling with religion for so did other godly Princes that were not reproued but highly commended and honoured in the Church of Christ but rather he was reproued as I answered you at the first for his insolent and tyrannous kind of medling with these matters which was as I shewed you for that in his owne person hauing no skil nor experience in such cases he would needes end and determine all thinges according to his owne fansie without respect of right or trueth and execute the same with terrible force and rigor exceeding the boundes of all Christian humanitie Againe these later examples as well as the former import that Princes had all this while full power to plant and establish the Christian fayth in their realmes and to punish ecclesiasticall transgressions and disorders in all sorts of subiects Lay men and Clerkes which is all that wee seeke for and all that wee meane when wee make them Gouernours of their dominions in all causes both ecclesiasticall and temporall and since you can neither deny the lawes Edicts nor acts of Princes which wee produce to this purpose nor possibly shift them why doe you wickedly slaunder and malitiously peruert that doctrine which you shall neuer soberly confute Phi. You will haue Princes to bee supreme Gouernours in these cases this is it that wee most impugne Theo. Well then let vs goe by degrees Doe you graunt them to bee Gouernours in those cases Phi. What meane you by Gouernours Theo. Such as haue lawfull authoritie from God to commaunde for trueth and punish error Phi. Doe you make them Iudges and Deciders of trueth Theo. No but receiuers and establishers of it Phi. Yea but who shall tell them which is trueth Theo. That is not this question When wee reason whether Princes may commaund for trueth and punish error you must not cauill about the meanes to knowe trueth from error but suppose that trueth were confessed and agreed on and in that case what may Princes doe for trueth Phi. Mary Sir if trueth were not in strife the doubt were not so great Theo. If I shoulde aske you whether Princes may reuenge murders and punish theftes were this an answere to say but howe shall they knowe what murder is and who bee theeues No more when wee demaunde what duetie Princes owe to God and his trueth shoulde you stand quarelling what trueth is or howe trueth may bee knowen The Princes duetie to God is one question which wee nowe handle the way to discerne trueth from error is an other which anon shall ensue when once this is ended but first let vs haue your direct answere whether Princes may commaunde for trueth or no Phi. For trueth they may but if they take quid pro quo they both hazard them selues and their whole Realmes and for that cause we say they must bee directed by Bishoppes Theo. You slide to the second question againe before the first bee finished Stay for that till this bee tried You graunt that Princes may command for trueth Do you not Phi. Wee doe Theo. When you say they may commaunde for trueth you doe not meane this or that poynt of trueth but indefinitely for trueth that is for all parts of trueth alike without the which God can not rightly bee serued Phi. They may commaunde for all as well as for part if the Bishoppes neede their helpe in all Theo. And commaunding is not onely the free permitting of those that wil but the moderate punishing of those that will not For punishment is the due desert of him that neglecteth the commaundement which he should obey So that he which may iustly commaund may iustly punish and hee that may lawfully punish may certainely commaund Howe say you then may Princes punish for matters of religion Phi. No doubt they may but when and where the Priest must guyde Theo. Who beareth the sworde The Priest or the Prince Phi. The Prince not the Priest Theo. And that sworde which the Prince beareth must doe the deede
must it not Phi. It must Theo. And the fact is as lawfull in Princes when they punish schismatikes heretikes and Idolaters as when they punish adulterers theeues and murderers Phi. What else Theo. And if they leaue such impieties against God vnpunished they do not that duetie which God requireth of them Phi. All this wee grant Theo. Will you not recall it when we come to the push Phi. Recall it As though this could hurt vs Theo. Since you promise not to recall it I will trust you for this once and will come to the true difference betwixt your opinion ours You flatly confesse and the generall practise of your Church is that Princes of duetie should and lawfully may punish all spiritual ecclesiasticall offences namely Apostasie Idolatrie sorcerie sacrilege schisme heresie and such like impieties against God and his Church as well as ciuill disorders and iniuries against our neighbours Can you denie this Phi. I can not Theo. Wee confesse the same Let it stand irreuocable for both sides Phi. Agreed But remember they bee punishers not determiners of those thinges Theo. I said punishers if you looke to my words Phi. I grant that doctrine to bee good and sound Theo. Then foorth What you say Princes may punish we say Princes may prohibite Prohibiting is lesse than punishing a meane to make subiectes do their dueties without punishing which euery Christian Magistrate shoulde rather embrace Princes by common iustice must open their mouthes to speak before they lift vp their handes to strike their lawes must bee knowen before their sword must be drawen to reuenge disobedience Nothing can be iustly punished except it bee first prohibited So that princes may punish those things ergo they may prohibite them Phi. Great reason Princes should warne their subiects as well as punish them Prohibiting is but forewarning what thinges they must auoyde lest they fall into the paynes prescribed Theo. If they may punish and prohibite that which is euill ergo they may commaund and establish that which is good in matters of religion Howe like you the sequele Phi. You thinke it holdeth by reason of the contrarietie that is betweene both parts Theo. All learning will tell you that contraries bee consequent to contraries If they may forbid and abolish that which is euil ergo they may bid and establish that which is good And so S. Augustine coupleth them You hearde the places before As a king hee serueth God by making Lawes commaunding iust thinges and prohibiting the contrarie And againe Kings as they bee kings serue God as they bee willed by God if in their kingdomes they commaunde that which is good and prohibite that which is euill not in ciuill affayres only but in matters also touching diuine religion They serue not God by prohibiting euill except they likewise commaund that which is good in diuine religion By duetie they must by consequent they do both How thinke you say we not trueth Phi. I see your meaning You would haue Princes commaund in matters of religion Theo. Wee would haue them in those thinges to commaund that which is good as well as prohibites that which is euill You graunt the later why should you sticke at the former Phi. Commaunding is a woord of too great authoritie Theo. Whether thinke you the greater with woordes to commaund or with deedes to compell Phi. Compelling is more than commaunding Theo. And hee that punisheth apparently compelleth Since then by your owne confession Princes may compell men by punishments from that which is euill to that which is good in matters of religion ergo they may much more command them that which is good Phi. You snare mee with wordes Theo. Doe I snare you with wordes when I say that Princes may commaund that which is good in matters of religion as well as punish that which is euill or do you rather harden your faces and whet your tongues against the Scriptures against the fathers against the lawes and Edicts of all godly Princes in all ages and Countries Looke no farther than to the places which I haue brought you as well out of the holy scriptures as ancient stories and lawes you shal find where princes commanded in causes ecclesiasticall I meane the very woord aboue three skore times If that bee not sufficient you shall haue three hundred when you will So that you make a bad march if you stand on this point with vs that Princes may not commaund that which is good in matters of religion Phi. You shall haue no such aduantage at vs. Wee knowe S. Augustine sayth When Emperours take part with trueth they commaund for trueth against error which whosoeuer contemneth hee purchaseth to himselfe iudgement And againe Emperours commaund the selfe same that Christ doth for when they commaund that which is good no man commaundeth by them but Christ. Theo. You did well to pull your fingers out of the fier you sawe it was too hoat for you S. Austen in that epistle which you quote vseth that very word twelue times to shew that Kings and Princes did and might COMMAVND in matters of religion Reade the twentie constitutions wherein Iustinian disposeth of crimes and causes ecclesiastical and see whether euery sentence be not a commaundement Or if that be too much ouerrun the 123 intitled of diuers ecclesiasticall Chapters and tell vs whether in that one constitution you do not finde aboue fourteene score imperatiue and prohibitiue verbs whereby the Prynce WILLETH PRESCRIBETH APPOINTETH COMMAVNDETH DISPOSETH of persons and causes ecclesiasticall And this you can not choose but perceaue except you bee voide of common sense that Princes vse not to perswade and intreate but require and command their subiects And therfore they must either not medle with matters of religion at all or els of necessitie they must commaund and afterward punish if their commaundement be despised Phi. Let it be so since you will needs haue it so but yet this doth not proue that Princes be supreme Rulers and masters of the faith and Church of Christ. Theo. You leape before you come to the stile Anon you shall heare what this doth proue but first Doe you graunt that Princes may commaund that which is good prohibite that which is euil in matters of religion Phi. What gaine you by that if I graunt it Theo. Take you no care for our gaines Do you graunt it or no Phi. What if I doe Theo. What if doth not answer my question speake off or on to that which I demaund Why be you so dainty to graunt that which you dare not deny Phi. Take your pleasure in that point and yet you shall misse your purpose Theo. My purpose is trueth which neither your high wordes nor indirect shifts shall disappoint You spend time with delaies we might otherwise sooner end Phi. Will you answer as briefly when I aske you the like Theo. If I doe not charge me with myne owne wordes Phi.
your Maiesties that you will cōmand the reuerend Bishop Dioscorus to answere to those things that we lay to his charge for confirming a wicked heresie deposing vs vniustly directing your sacred precept to oecumenical councel of Bishops to heare the matter between vs and the said Dioscorus and certifie your Maiesties of the whole cause that you may do therein what shal please your Graces Iustinian in his sixt Constitution prescribing what persons he will haue made Bishops and how they shal be qualified and examined before they be admitted threatneth in sharp manner He that doth any thing besides this which we haue appointed both he that is ordered shal be depriued of his function and he that did order him shall loose his Bishopricke for offending this law The like punishment he setteth downe for Simonie Though sayth Iustinian he haue all other things that we before required yet if hee procure a Bishopricke by mony or mony worth Let him knowe that hee shall be turned out of his Bishoprike and doe his orderer this pleasure that he also shall be remoued from his office and from the Clergie So for ordering and not examining that was obiected against the Person If one come to bee made a Bishop and any man contradict and offer to lay somewhat to his charge Let him not be ordered before such complaints be discussed And if he that should make him hasten to consecration after such contradiction without examining the matter Let him know that which he doth shall be vtterly void and also he that goeth against our law shall be depriued of his Priestly function and he that ordered him without trial shall likewise be remooued from his Episcopall dignitie So for absence from his church after he is Bishop This also we define that no Bishop bee so hardie as to absent himselfe from his Church aboue one whole yere If he be away longer than a yere let the Patriarke of that region cite him orderly to returne If he continue disobedient let him be clean expelled from the sacred number of Bishops And generally for all matters comprised in that constitution The things which we haue decreed for the preseruation of ecclesiastical order and state agreeable to the tenor and prescript of the sacred rules let the most holy Patriarkes of euery Prouince the Metropolitanes and the rest of the most reuerend Bishops and Clerks see that they keepe for euer hereafter sure and inuiolable the punishment to him that transgresseth these things shal be to be seuered quite from God and excluded from his Priestly degree In his sixteene constitution commaunding Clerks to be remoued from one Church to an other till the iust number which he decreed were supplied in euery Church he writeth to the Patriarke of Constantinople in this wise Your blessednes shall endeuour to put in execution the things which we haue thought decent for the profite of the sacred and holy Churches And if any thing be attempted to the contrarie let him assure himselfe that durst enter orders against this our law that it doe him no good In his 57 Constitutiō prohibiting the sacred mysteries to be celebrated in priuat Chappels these things saith he we commaund to the most holy Archbishop and vniuersall Patriarke of this Citie In his 123 Constitution you shal find examples enough of his Princely prohibitions and commaundements to Bishops for matters concerning the regiment of the Church For first appointing how Bishoppes shall bee chosen and that the Person elected shall before his admission deliuer a confession of the true faith subscribed with his owne hand and recite the praiers vsed in the sacred communion holy Baptisme and sweare that hee neither hath giuen nor promised nor will giue any thing to those that elected him nor to him that ordereth him nor to any other the rather to attaine his ordering he addeth If any be made Bishope against this obseruation as well he shall be cast out of his Bishoprike as the other that presumed to create him against this forme shall bee seuered one yere from the sacred ministerie and shall forfeit all his goods to the Church where he is Bishop But if any man consecrate one that is accused before hee examine the matter both he that is made and he that did make him shal bee depriued of their episcopall functions Aboue al things This we decree to bee kept that no man be made a Bishop by rewards And therefore as well hee that giueth as he that taketh and he that would bee the meanes to worke it shal be degraded And so going on with Diuers ecclesiastical Chapters he saith We forbid the Bishops to leaue their Churches and to trauell into other coasts And we commaund that in euery Prouince there be yerely kept a Synode where causes of faith and doubts concerning the Canons and administration of ecclesiasticall things as also touching Bishops Priests Deacons and other Clerks and Rulers of Monasteries and Moncks either for their liues or other things needing reformation shall be handled and in conuenient manner examined and corrected according to the sacred Canons and OVR imperial LAVVES Besides we command that all Bishoppes and Priests doe celebrate the sacred oblation and praiers in the holy Baptisme not secretly but with a loud voice so as the faithfull people may heare the religious Priests and Bishops knowing that if they neglect any of these things they shall answer for it in the dreadfull iudgement of the great GOD and our Sauiour Christ neither will wee vnderstanding thereof passe it ouer or leaue it vnpunished We also forbid the most religious Bishops Priests and all other Clerks to play at tables or to companie with such gamsters or to be present at spectacles If any of them offend in this point we command that he bee suspended from his function for three yeres Likewise we forbid all Bishops and Priests to separate any man from the communion til a cause be shewed for which the Canons wil it to be doone If any man separate an other from the communion against this law the partie that is greeued vniustly shal be absolued and receaued to the communion by an higher Priest And he that durst excommunicate vniustly shall be put from the communion by the Bishop that is next aboue him as long as it seemeth good to that superiour Moreouer if the Bishops of the same Synode haue any controuersie betweene them touching ether ecclesiastical right or causes first their Metropolitane with two other Bishops of the same Synod shall determine the matter And if either part find fault with that iudgment then shal the Patriarke of that Prouince heare the cause and define that which is consonant to the canons ecclesiastical and our lawes neither part hauing leaue to cōtradict his sentence If a Clerke or any other of what cause soeuer appeale from a Bishop first the Metropolitane shall iudge the matter according to the sacred canons
and our lawes If either side mislike the cause shal deuolue to the Patriarke of the Prouince and he shall end it by the direction of the Canons and our lawes Clerks we permit none to bee made except they be lettered of a right faith honest conuersation haue neither Concubine nor bastardes but such as either be single men or had or haue one lawful wife and her the first no widowe nor diuorced woman nor otherwise interdicted by the lawes or Canons A Priest wee will not haue made vnder the age of fiue and thirtie neither a Deacon or Subdeacon vnder the age of fiue and twentie neither a Reader vnder eighteene A woman shall not bee admitted to serue the Church that is vnder fourtie or hath beene twise maried Many skore precepts besides these that I recken shall you finde in that constitution touching persons and causes ecclesiasticall with these words Volumus sancimus iubemus Wee wil decree commaund and other verbes equiualent prescribing directly to Bishops what order and course they shall keepe for the seemely regiment of Christes Church By the commandement of Iustinus vncle to Iustinian the Councell of Chalcedon was preached and established through the most holy Churches And by the commandement of an other Iustinus his nephew was Gregorie called from Mount Sina to be chiefe Bishoppe of Antioch next after Anastasius whom the Prince remoued from his seate for wasting the Church treasures Leo the successor and Anthemius that maried the daughter of Martian gaue forth this commandement Let no man be made a Bishop for intreatie or for mony If any man be detected to haue gotteÌ„ the seate of a bishop by rewards or to haue taken any thing for the electing or ordering of others let him be accused as for a publike crime and an offence committed against the state repelled from his priestly degree And we adiudge him not only to be depriued for euer of that honor but also to be condeÌ„ned to perpetual infamie And the same princes by their Edict more general We decree say they that those thinges which were in sort done against the Lord himselfe of true religion being abrogated and vtterly abolished al things be restoared againe to their former condition and order in which they were established before our times as well touching the points of christian faith as touching the state of the most sacred churches Martyrs chappels Al innouations in the time of this tyrannie against the holy churches their reuerend bishops concerning the right of their Episcopall creations the deposing of any Bishop during those times their prerogatiue to sit before others within Councell or without the priuileges of Metropolitanes and Patriarks al such innouations we say repealed Let the grants CONSTITVTIONS of the godly Princes before vs and likewise ours touching churches chappels of Martyrs Bishops Clerkes and Monkes be kept inuiolable Much more might be sayd but this shal suffice You bring vs one seely mistaken authoritie where Constantius commaunding against right and trueth in a Bishoppes cause was reproued wee bring you if you viewe the precedents well an hundred expresse places and aboue that auncient and religious princes commaunded Bishoppes and Councels in matters of doctrine and discipline and were not reproued but honoured and obeyed in the Church of God Now choose whether you will shew your selues so voyd of al religion reason that you will preferre a single and solitarie text and the same so many wayes answered by vs before the publike and perpetuall practise of the primatiue Church or else acknowledge with vs that Princes for trueth did might commaund Bishoppes and preuent and punish in them as well errors in fayth as other ecclesiasticall crimes and disorders Phi. All this I may graunt and yet your supremacie will not followe Theo. Neuer tell vs what you may doe but what you will doe Deny the premisses if you dare or the consequent if you can Phi. I graunt Princes may commaunde Bishoppes but not what they list which is your opinion Theo. If you may bee the reporter of our doctrines wee shall defende many mad positions leaue your malitious and odious slaunders wee maintaine no such opinion Phi. What doe you then Theo. If you did not range thus besides all order and trueth you should perceiue what wee doe but when wee come to conclude you slide from the matter and fall to your wonted outfacing and wrangling Phi. Doe I not answere directly to that which you aske Theo. For a while you doe but when we come to touch the quicke you start aside and busie the reader with other quarrels Forbeare that till wee come to the sifting of your absurdities and then take your fill In the meane time suffer vs to say what we defend and to know what you assent vnto that the difference betwixt our opinions may be rightly conceiued and the proofes of either part duely considered Phi. With a good will Theo. Doe you then 〈◊〉 for a matter fully proued that auncient kings and Christian Emperours 〈◊〉 â—â—â—maund for trueth as well Priest as people and that they chiefly did and iuâ—â—ly might enterpose their royall power and care for the reformation and correction of errours in fayth abuses in discipline disorders in life and all other ecclesiasticall enormities as appeareth plainely by the publike lawes and acts of Constantine Theodosius Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and other no lesse Godly than worthie Gouernours If the places which I haue brought import not so much refell the particulars I will be of your mind if they doe why stande you so doubtfull as lothe to confesse and yet not able to gainesay the proofes Phi. For trueth I knowe Princes haue commaunded as well Bishops as others and vy their Princely power established and preserued the faith and Canons of Christes Church Theo. And this the sacred Scriptures the learned fathers the stories ecclesiasticall the lawes and monuments of Catholike Princes in the primatiue church of Christ for eight hundred and fiftie yeres doe fairely warrant Phi. They do Theo. And the places that proue this are both innumerable and inexpugnable Phi. The proofes for this point bee pregnant euough Theo. And this is no way repugnant to probabilitie possibilitie reason or nature Phi. It is not Theo. You will not eate these words when you come to the purpose Phi. I will not Theo. And if you were to bee sworne on a booke doe you beleeue in your conscience this which you say to bee true Phi. I doe Theo. Then here I will stay Phi. Haue I not answered directly to your questions Theo. You haue and wee vrge you no farther Phi. What are you the nearer Theo. That shall you now see You make shamefull outcries at the power which we giue to Princes to be supreme Gouernours of their Realmes in al thinges and causes as wel ecclesiastical as temporal as A thing improbable vnreasonable vnnaturall
How els should we cal her Phi. Not Gouernour but Prince or ruler For Bishops be Gouernours in their kind as well as Princes Theo. As though these words were not subiect to the same cauils with the former Bishops be Princes and Rulers in their kind as well as gouernours Your selues proue them to be rulers by S. Paul Obey your Rulers and againe The holy Ghost hath set you to rule the Church And where you say Rulers in S. Paul S. Hierom saith Parete Principibus vestris Obey you Princes And elswhere A Bishop must be irreproueable or he shall be no Prince of the Church Yea Gregorie doubteth not to call them Kings The holy preachers of the Church saith he be Kings And S. Hierom ventereth to call them Queenes The Kings and Queenes that nource the Church be plainly the Apostles and Apostolike men So that if we were disposed to play with wordes as you be we coulde driue you to seeke newe names not only for Kings Princes but also for Priests and Bishops S. Iohn saith of himselfe and of al the faithfull Christ hath made vs Kings and Priests vnto god his father and S. Peter confirmeth the same You are a Roiall Priesthood Eusebius writeth of Constantine that He called the seruants of God to Synods as a coÌ„mon Bishop appointed by God and sate among them and made himselfe partaker of their consultations and that in his hearing the Prince Named himselfe a Bishop with these wordes You are Bishops of things within the Church I am appointed by God a Bishop of those things that are without the Church And this he might well doe For 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Bishoppe is in Greeke nothing else but an ouerseer or a superintendent which woord Hierom vseth and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whence our English woorde Priest seemeth to be deriued he sayth is nomen aetatis a name of age and signifieth an Elder and nothing in the Scriptures more common than to call Princes and rulers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Elders as the seuentie Elders all the tribes of Israel and their Elders Princes and iudges the Princes and Elders of Sucoth the Elders of Bethulia and infinite other places where the woord 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is vsed of the Septuagint Phi. We know you may confound all things if you list to dally with equiuocatioÌ„s but S. Paul hath expresly prohibited al good teachers strife of words Theo. You say well and since al your absurdities haue none other ground but the carping at our words or rather the manifest abusing and perâ—erting of the same what are your labours to requite you with Saint Paul but vaine brables of men corrupted in mind and depriued of trueth If the word gouernour were common to Bishops with Princes as you would haue it yet are their offices and regiments many wayes distinguished The gouernment of Princes is publike of Bishops is priuate of Princes is compulsiue of Bishops is persuasiue of Princes is Lordly with Rule of Bishops is brotherly with seruice of Princes is externall and ordereth the actions of the bodie of Bishops is internall and guideth the motions of the mind to bee short Princes haue the sworde with lawfull authoritie from GOD in his name to commaunde and prohibite rewarde and reuenge that which hee prescribeth and appointeth Bishoppes haue the woorde and Sacramentes committed to their charge with fidelitie and sinceritie to diuide and dispence the same in his Church according to his will And therefore though Bishoppes may bee called Gouernours in respect of the soule yet onely Princes bee Gouernours of Realmes Pastours haue flockes and Bishoppes haue Diocesses Realmes Dominions and Countries none haue but Princes and Magistrates and so the stile Gouernour of this Realme belongeth onely to the Prince and not to the Priest and importeth a publike and Princely regiment with the sworde which no Bishoppe by Gods Lawe may claime or vse Phi. Wee coulde graunt you with a good will that the Prince is the only Gouernour of this Realm but you adde as well in all spirituall or ecclesiasticall things or causes as temporall which is most absurde and direct against your owne distinction For if the Prince be the only Gouernour of all spirituall things and causes Ergo Bishops bee no Gouernours of the word nor Sacramentes rites nor ceremonies praiers nor preachings of the Church but all must bee as please the Prince and so you fall into that shameful error againe from the which you seeke to cleare your selues Theo. Is it for weakenes of witte that you cannot or for rustines of hart that you will not see the defect of your argument Phi. The reason to my thinking is very sure For if only Princes be Gouernours in those cases Ergo not Priests Theo. A childish sophisme Your antecedent hath a special acception of the word Gouernour and your conclusion a generall Princes only bee Gouernours in things and causes ecclesiastical that is with the sword For so their vocation inferreth and your assertion witnesseth and so must you limite your antecedent before it will be good or agreeable to the Doctrine which wee teach oth which we take Then if you conclude Ergo Bishops be no gouernors in those things with the sword your illation is sound and sufficient for in all things and causes ecclesiasticall and spirituall Princes beare the sworde and not Bishops But if you inferre Ergo Bishops bee no Gouernours in those things meaning thereby no dispencers guiders nor directors of those things your conclusion is larger than your antecedent which neuer maketh good consequent Phi. I see your meaning you will haue Princes only to be Gouernours of their Realmes dominions that is to beare the sworde within their Realmes and dominions in all thinges as well spirituall as temporall Theo. You see what wee say peruert it no more but confute it if you can Phi. That Princes and none els shoulde beare the sworde within their Dominions I meane not to confute I confesse it as well as you But what hath the temporall sword to do with ecclesiasticall thinges and causes Princes should meddle with common wealth matters and not busie themselues with Church causes Theo. Runne you backe againe to this issue that Princes may not meddle with causes ecclesiasticall Haue you forgotten how largely that is prooued before and sealed with your owne consent as irreuocable Phi. Meddle they may with some spirituall thinges and causes but when and as they shall bee required by the Priest Theo. Wee are not at this present to heare what you can imagine but to see what you can impugne in our othe as absurd And thus farre you agree with vs that Princes bee the onely Gouernours of their Realmes and dominions taking Gouernours for Magistrates which beare the sworde in Gods behalfe with publike power to compell or punish Phi. And what of this Theo. Thus much that if onely Princes beare the sworde and no man else by
Gods appointment ergo they beare it in all thinges where the sworde must or may be vsed as well spirituall as temporall Phi. No doubt where the sword must or may bee borne they beare it but howe proue you that in spirituall thinges and causes the temporal sword must or may bee vsed Theo. Pitch that for the question and trie how wel you shall speede with it Phi. Wee neuer denyed but in some sort the temporall sword might bee vsed for spirituall thinges and causes as namely to defend the fayth and Canons of the Church and to put them in execution This Princes may do and must doe with their royall power but they may not commaund what they list in ecclesiasticall causes as you would haue them Theo. You snarle stil when you see your selfe brought to the wall What we woulde haue Princes to doe shall soone appeare if you cease from slaundering and keepe to the matter Our tongues ake with telling you that we hold no such opinion and yet you neuer leaue grating at vs as if we did The point that nowe wee stande at is this whether in a Christian common wealth the temporall sworde as you call it that is the publike authoritie of the Magistrate must bee vsed to receiue establish and defende the true faith of Christ and wholesome discipline of his Church and to prohibite displace and punish the contrarie say nay if you dare Phi. Wee neuer ment it Theo. Then in all spirituall thinges and causes Princes onely beare the sword that is haue publike authoritie to receiue establish and defende all poyntes and partes of Christian Doctrine and Discipline within their Realmes and without their helpe though the fayth and Canons of Christes Church may bee pryuately professed and obserued of such as bee willing yet can they not bee generally planted and setled in any kingdome nor vrged by publike Lawes externall punishments on such as refuse but by their consents that beare the sword This is it that wee say refell it if you can Phi. This is not your opinion but ours Wee confesse Princes to bee defenders of the faith and assisters of the Church with their secular might and power you auouche them to bee supreme moderatours and directours of all spirituall thinges and causes without restraint Theo. Wee auouche you to bee Supreme lyars and that which is worse you thinke with facing in time to get some credite to your fabling You finde no such thing in our words nor deedes as you report of vs. We confesse Princes to bee supreme gouernours that is as wee haue often told you supreme bearers of the sworde which was first ordained from aboue to defend and preserue as well goodlines and honestie as peace and tranquillitie amongest men We giue Princes no power to deuise or inuent new religions to alter or change Sacraments to decide or debate doubtes of faith to disturbe or infringe the canons of the church The publike power and outward meanes which God hath vnited and annexed to their swords as namely to commaund by their Edicts and dispose the goods and bodies of such as resist them this power and meanes wee say must be conuerted and vsed first to the seruice and glorie of God next to the profit and welfare of their Realmes that is as much or rather more for thinges spirituall than temporall Phi. If you giue Princes no iudicial nor spiritual power in matters of religiō but an externall and temporall power to permit and establish that which God commaundeth howe can they bee supreme Theo. Supreme they be for that by Gods Lawe they bee not vnder the Popes checke and correction though to leade on the simple sort with a better shewe you conceale that superiority which the Pope chalengeth ouer Princes and enter your whole action for the Church which woord you knew was more gratious and will in no case bee brought to take our meaning right lest you shoulde bee driuen either to proue your assertion which you can not or to confesse ours which you will not And therefore you wrest the word supreme against the very grounds of our common fayth and rules of your priuate speach to make it seeme false and absurde and then as valiant Captaines you wrestle with the fansies which your selues haue deuised fighting thus with your own shadowes you thinke your Seminaries the only lights and lanternes of Christendome but you must go more syncerely to worke before you can winne the cause Phi. Supreme is superiour to all and subiect to none Theo. And so bee Princes superiour to all men within their Realmes and subiect to no man without their Realmes Phi. What superiour to Christ the Church and all Theo. Haue you neuer done with that idle and eluish obiection Wee compare not man with God nor bodies on earth with spirites in heauen but wee conferre mortall men with their like bearing flesh about them which the sworde may touch and in comparison of them wee say Princes are superiour to all men within their dominions Bishoppes and others and subiect to no man without their dominions Prelate nor Pope to bee commaunded corrected and deposed by their tribunals This is the supremacie which wee attribute to Princes that all men within their Territories shoulde obey their Lawes or abide their pleasures and that no man on earth hath authoritie to take their swordes from them by iudiciall sentence or martiall violence Leaue wrangling and rouing and speake directly to this question Phi. I will if you first graunt that your meaning is not so large as your woordes bee Theo. You would fayne seeme with your eloquent nifles to woorke some masteries but it will not bee Our woordes are no larger than our meaning and both be true Phi. Why supreme is superiour to al none excepted no not Christ himselfe The. And what are these phrases the most holy the most mightie the most blessed which you applie to the Pope do they except Christ or no Phi. If nothing else be added they doe not by rigor of comparison but common vse of speach vnderstandeth them of earthly men and alwayes excepteth first God with whom there can bee none compared and next his Saints which be farre from vs in an other and better life Theo. I crie you mercie You may salute your Romish Pharaoh when you will with the most mightie Priest the most blessed father the chiefe Pastor and many such loftie stiles and wee must come after with salt and spoones and conceaue that Christ is excepted though he bee not because your flatteries bee common and if wee to signifie that Princes by Gods lawe bee not vnder the Popes yoke defende them to bee superiour to all men at home and subiect to no mans Courts or Consistories abroade and therfore call them supreme Gouernours of their owne people and Countries you sounde alarme against vs as if wee went about to defeate Christ of his kingdome and disseism
Theo. S. Paul expressely writeth of the Prince that He beareth the sword not without cause and is Gods minister to reuenge him that doth euil And our Sauiour seuerely forbiddeth Peter the rest of his Apostles to medle with the sword All that take the sword shall perish by the sworde and to them all You know that kinges of Nations raigne ouer theÌ„ and they that be great exercise authoritie with you it shall not be so The sword is but the signe of publike and Princely power and where the thing is not lawfull the signe is vnlawfull Since then the Lord interdicteth his Apostles and messengers all princely power it is euident the sword which is but a signe thereof is likewise interdicted them Thus much Bernard sticketh not to tell Pope Eugenius to his face It is the Lordes voice in the Gospell Kinges of Nations are Lordes ouer them and they that haue power on them are called gracious and the Lord inferreth you shall not be so It is a cleare case the Apostles are forbidden dominion Go thou then saith Bernard to the Pope and vsurpe if thou dare either an Apostleship if thou be a Prince or dominion if thou be Apostolik Thou art expressely forbidden one of them If thou wilt haue both thou shalt loose both The paterne of an Apostle is this dominion is interdicted seruice is inioyned Gird thy selfe with thy sworde the sworde of the spirit which is the word of God And this Pope Nicholas fairely confesseth The church of God hath no sword but the spirituall wherewith she quickeneth she killeth not Your owne law saith It is easily proued of Bishops and other clergimen whatsoeuer that they may not either by their owne authoritie or by the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome take weapon in hand exercise the materiall sworde addeth this reason For euery man besides him and his authoritie which hath lawfull power and which as the Apostle saith beareth the sworde not without cause to whom euerie soule ought to bee subiect euery man I say that without this authoritie taketh the sword shall perish with the sword He that beareth the sword may lawfully put malefactors to death and wage warre with his enimies when neede so requireth which Bishops may not doe The weapons of our warfare are not carnall saith S. Paul Quid Episcopis cum bello What haue Bishops to do with batle saith Athanasius Ambrose Pugnare non debeo I ought not to fight If they may not fight much lesse kil if they may do neither they can not beare the sword which is appointed by God receiued of men to doe both The words of our Sauior are cleare with vs for the negatiue My kingdom saith he is not of this world If then your Priests Prelats Popes wil be the seruants of Christ they must chaleÌ„ge no worldly kingdom as froÌ„ him or in his name The seruant is not aboue his master If the master with his own mouth haue denied it the seruaÌ„ts may not affirm it or vsurp it The souldiers of Christ must not intangle them-selues with secular affaires much lesse make themselues Lords and iudges of earthly matters which office properly belongeth to the sworde and must be sustained of all those that beare the sword The Popes themselues before their power and pride grew so great were of this opinion with vs. When the truth which is Christ was once come after that saith Pope Nicolas neither did the Emperour take vppon him the Bishops right nor the Bishop vsurpe the Emperours name because the same mediatour of God and man the man Christ Iesus distinguisheth the offices of ech power with proper actions and different dignities to this end that the Bishop which is a souldier vnto God shoulde not intangle and snare himselfe with wordly affaires and againe the Prince which is occupied in earthly matters should not be Ruler of diuine things The very same text word for word your Decrees make Cyprian write to Iulian the Emperour if those be Cyprians wordes and not rather an impudent forgerie in his name For how could Cyprian that died vnder Valerian 260. after Christ write to Iulian that began his raigne 360. after Christ But such proppes are fittest to bolster vp your kingdom of darkenesse and error Sure it is which the wordes of our Sauiour apparantly proue that all the Disciples and Apostles of Christ are straitly charged not to medle with princely Scepters and swordes and therefore out of all question only Princes beare the sworde within their owne Realmes and dominions for so much as that honour and power is expressely prohibited and interdicted by the Lord himselfe to all Preachers and Bishops Phi. This wee woulde haue graunted you with halfe these wordes Theo. And this wee woulde haue depende not on your grant which is fickle but on such proofes as we might make iust accouÌ„t of Phi. How then Theo. As the first is apparant that onely Princes haue the sword committed to their charge by Gods appointmeÌ„t so the next is as euident that the sword I meane the publike authoritie of Magistrats in Christian common-wealthes hath been may be and should be vsed for the receiuing establishing and deâ—ending of that which is good and prohibiting abolishing and punishing of that which is euill in all spirituall and ecclesiasticall thinges and causes as well as in temporall which the sacred Scriptures the auncient Fathers the Church Stories the lawes and examples of al ages and countries do sufficiently proue as you saw before Phi. This is not it that we stand on Theo. This is that we affirme stand you on what you lift Phi. If this be granted what will you conclude Theo. If this be proued you shall see what we conclude If it bee not shew where the defect is Phi. That onely Princes beare the sword within their own realms which may be and should bee vsed for the receiuing establishing and defending of the faith Cannons of the church all thinges incident or pertinent to the same and for prohibiting and punishing whatsoeuer is repugnant to either in this we finde no defect Let vs therefore see what you will infer The. First then the words of our oth that Her Highnes is the only gouernor of this realm bearing the sword as wel in al spiritual or ecclesiastical things causes as teÌ„poral be not only tolerable resonable but such by your own coÌ„fessioÌ„ as we may truly defend you can not iustly confute Next the absurdities which you bring against vs as if we deriued the spirituall power of preaching baptizing binding loosing imposing handes and offering prayers to God from the Princes Soueraigne right and title which we doe not all these absurdities I say bee mere follies grounded vpon the carelesse mistaking if not spitefull peruerting of our wordes Thirdly your defacing and imâ—â—ouing the Princes sworde and aduauncing and defending against
We may do better to learne obedience than sawcely to check the magistrate for allotting such penalties as we do not like yet this I wil say there is no conspiracie so pernicious and dangerous to the State as that which is secretly crept into the hart vpon a sense of deuotion and outwardly couered with a shew of religion If therfore the Prince seuerely reuenge both your pretences in opinion practises in execution absurdly grounded on Peters keyes and wickedly deriued thence for the remouing of her crowne defacing of her person and diminishing of her right that rigor may wel be defended as comming from iust and lawfull authoritie not without sufficient and euideâ—t necessitie neither can you bring ought against it but onely that you professe it as a point of your Catholique religion not of any sinister or direct intention to hurt her maiestie or any other Christian Prince which is most friuolous false For the Popes authoritie iurisdiction and power lately claymed by him and vsurped within this Realme and since maintained extolled and defended by you and such your adherents as haue suffered death to prescribe Lawes as hee list to commaund Princes and interdict their Realmes yea to depriue them of their crownes absolue their subiects licence rebellions and dispence with the murdering of heretikes as you call them euen of Princes themselues This authoritie iurisdiction and power we deny to bee any doctrine or doubt of Christian religion or to bee so much as once spoken or thought of I say not by the Scriptures which put no difference betweene the Pope and an other Bishoppe but by any father or Councell for a thousande yeeres in the Church of God It was the meere deuise and drift of Antichrist to make himselfe mightie when it was first attempted by Hildebrand and it is nowe coloured by you with the name of religion because you would poyson the people the sooner with that perswasion haue somewhat to say for your selues when you be charged with rebellion and disobedience to the temporall magistrate Phi. Your owne masters and leaders whom I trust you will not condemne for Traytours haue detested the title of Supreme head of the Church in princes as well as wee the Lutherans flatly controling it in generall and Caluin himselfe with all the Puritants much misliking and reprehending the first grant therof to king Henry Why then put you poore men to death for that which your owne side abhorreth Theo. Your brethren were not put to death for denying her maiestie to bee supreme head of Christes Church in Englande in causes ecclesiasticall though one of them for want of trueth or wit did so report at his end and you for lacke of better proofe haue brought his owne woordes spoken in fauour and excuse of himselfe as some worthie witnes No man is compelled by the lawes of this Realme to confesse any such title in the Prince much lesse punishable by death for denying it and therefore your martyr was a Lyer at the houre of his death and either of malice inuerted or of ignorance misdeemed the cause for which he dyed Phi. It is all one to bee head of the Church and to bee chiefe Gouernour in causes ecclesiasticall Theo. They suffered neither for the one nor for the other but for maintaining and defending the iurisdiction and power of the Bishop of Rome heretofore claymed and vsurped in this Realme which generall includeth all your erroneous and trayterous assertions of the Popes power tending no way to religion but only sauouring of the Popes pride to be ruler and displacer of Princes And therfore either proue that claime to pertaine to faith or leaue your vayne presuming and fond discoursing that a number of your brethren haue beene condemned and executed for meere matter of religion Though you list to take that for spirituall which is temporall and cal it religion which in deede is sedition yet your idle multiplying of words and changing of names doeth not conuince your quarrel to bee righteous or the Lawes of this Land to bee tyrannous Shewe that power iurisdiction and authoritâ—e which your holy father hath heretofore claymed and vsed in this realme to bee consonant to the lawes of God or church of Christ for a thousand yeres and wee will yeeld your friends and familiars haue dyed for religion otherwise you do but face out the matter with fierie words to keepe deceiued and simple sâ—ules from suspecting the secrets of your profession As for supreme head of the church it is certaine that title was first transferred from the Pope to king Henry the eight by the Bishops of yoâ—r side not of ours though the pastors in King Edwards time might not wel dislike much lesse disswade the stile of the crowne by reason the king was vnder yeres and so remained vntil he died yet as soone as it pleased God to place her maiestie in her fathers throne the Nobles preachers perceiuing the words head of the church which is Christs proper and peculiar honour to be offensiue to many that had vehemently refelled the same in the Pope besought her highnesse the meaning of that word which her father had vsed might be expressed in some apter plainer termes and so was the Prince called Supreme gouernour of her Realme that is ruler and bearer of the sworde with lawfull authoritie to command and punish answerably to the word of God in all spirituall or ecclesiasticall thinges and causes as well as in temporall And no forraine Prince or prelate to haue any iurisdiction superiority preeminence or authority to establish prohibite correct and chastice with publike lawes or temporall paynes any crimes or causes ecclesiasticall or spirituall within her Realme This Caluin and they of Magdeburge neuer misliked howsoeuer you would seeme to take aduantage of their words Phi. Caluin sayth it is sacrilege and blasphemie Looke you therefore with what consciences you take that othe which your owne master so mightily detesteth Theo. Nay looke you with what faces you alleage Caluin who maketh that stile to be sacrilegious and blasphemous as well in the Pope as in the Prince Reason therefore you receiue or refuse his iudgement in both If it derogate from Christ in the Prince so doeth it in the Pope if it doe not in the Pope as you defend no more doeth it in the Prince Yet we graunt the sense of the word supreme as Caluin conceiued it by Steuen Gardiners answere and behauiour is very blasphemous and iniurious to Christ and his word whether it bee Prince or Pope that so shall vse it For by supreme Caluin vnderstoode a power to do what the Prince woulde in all matters of religion without respect to the will or precepts of God which is a thing most impious Phi. His woordes are They were blasphemers in calling him supreme head of the Church vnder Christ. Theo. They are so but that which goeth before
Rom. 15. How kinges must serue the Lord and Christ his sonne Psalm 2. Aug. contra literas Petilia lib. 2. cap. 92. Idem contra Cresconium lib. ◠cap. 51. The church shall suck the brestes of kinges The milke of princes is not temporall wealth August epi. 50. Idem contra 2. Gaudenij epist. lib. 2. cap. 11. Idem contrae Epist. Parmen lib. 1. cap. 7. The Prince charged to punish false and corrupt religion * Read on the place contra epist. Parmen lib. 1. cap. 7. Compell them to come in spoken to the magistrates Luke 14. Aug. contra 2. Gaudent Epist. lib. 2. cap. 17. Mat. 21. 1. Corinth 10. 2. Tim. 2. Mat. 24. Tit. 1. Mat. 20. 2. Pet. 5. Luke 14. August Ep. 50. Idem contra 2. Gaundentij epist. lib. 2. cap. 17. Idem Epist. 48. Idem Epist. 50. Idem Epist. 48. The Princes charge as the scriptures do expresse it Al these things must bee done in euery christiā cōmō wealth and who shall do them but the Prince August contra Cresconium lib. 3. cap. 51. Christian Princes from the beginning haue delt in causes ecclesiasticall Socrat. in prooemio lib. 5. Alciatus incodicem rubric de sacrosanct ecclesijs tomo 3. pag. 198. Constantines example Euseb. hist. lib. 10. cap. 5. Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 2. cap. 28. Socrat. lib. 10. cap. 34. Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 1. cap. 37. Ibidem lib. 3. cap. 13. Ibidem lib. 3. cap. 22. Ibidem lib. 3. cap. 23. Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 28. Euseb. de vita Constan. lib. 4. cap. 42. Athanas. Apol. 2. cap. Quum multas Athanasius and his side appeale from the councel to the prince Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 34. The Councell of Tyrus commanded to come before the Prince giue account of their doings What Constantine did in Athanasius his cause Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 27. The restoring of Arius Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 25. Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 27. Constantine threatneth Athanasius for not receiuing Arius Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 37. 31. Ibidem lib. 1. cap. 38. The Prince cōmaundeth the Patriarke to receiue Arius to the cōmunion Codi lib. 1. tit 1.6.2.3 Tit. 5.7.9.11 Nouel constitut 57.37 42.123 Nouel constit 123.131 Nouel constit 5. 131.3.67.79 Nouel constit 123.133 Nouel const 6. 123. Nouel constitutione 123. Nouel constit 123. The prince receaueth information cōmaundeth correction Nouell constitutione 6. The doctrine discipline of the church must be the Princes cheefest care The Bishops Patriarks of euerie diocesse cōmaūded and threatned Nouel Constitut 5. Nouel Constitut 133. The Prince soueraigne ouer all men and that in things cōcerning God which must be preserued from corruption by the prelates but most of all by the Prince The things were then in the Princes charge which the Pope now tieth to spiritual courtes Careli praefa in leges Franciae The preface of Charles to his lawes directing commissioners to reforme the Church in his name and by vertue of his authoritie Legū Franciae li. 1. Cap. 1.2.3 Cap. 23. Chap. 49.25 Cap. 11. Cap. 57.45 Cap. 13. Cap. 6. Cap. 20. Cap. 41. Cap. 15. Cap. 160. Chap. 76. Cap. 76. Ibidem Ibidem Ibidem Cap. 66. Cap. 132. Cap. 147. Cap. 73. Cap. 155. Cap. 75. Cap. 139. Cap. 158. Cap. 74. Cap. 78. Cap. 103. Cap. 129. Cap. 128. Cap. 130. Cap. 131. Cap. 141. Cap. 136. Cap. 86. Cap. 67. Cap. 79. Cap. 81. Cap. 110. Cap. 71. Cap. 62. Cap. 163. Cap. 116. The Prince visiteth and cōmaundeth for ecclesiastical rules and discipline Cap. 104. The Prince promiseth by the aduise of his faithful determinatiō for such ecclesiasticall matters as were not expressed in his chapters Charles by his lawes rectified al ecclesiasticall things and causes If any wanted he promised at his leisure to supply that defect His sonne his nephew followed his steps and executed his lawes Legion franciae lib. 2. Cap. 1. Cap. 2. Cap. 3. The cheefe of this ministerie consisteth in the princes person to whom the Bishops are coadiutors Cap. 12. Cap. 11. The Prince willeth all without exception to obserue his commaundements in all things as well ecclesiastical as temporal Cap. 26. Bishops to be reformed by the Kings visitours Cap. 27. The kings decrees touching all things and causes to be obserued of all men Chap. 28. The first part of the Princes commission concerned religion and ecclesiastical order Legū Franciae Cap. 12. Cap. 26. Cap. 28. Cap. 11. What lacketh this of gouerning al men in al matters both ecclesiasticall and ciuil Supreme is not superiour to Christ but not subiect to the Pope The superlatiue includeth not God because God with man is not cōpared 1. Pet. 2. Tit. 3. Rom. 1. Cap. 13. Cap. The saints on earth are subiect to the Princes sword the graces of God are not The Church cōfessed princes to be subiect to none but to God Tertul. ad Scapulam Idem in Apologetico Contra Parmenian lib. 3. Ad Populū antioch homil 2. Superiour to al is subiect to none Ad popu Ant. homil 2. Nouel const 133. De obitu Theodosij Greg. epist. li. 3. ca. 100. cap. 103. The word supreme was added to set Princes at libertie from the Pope and that is it that so much offēdeth the Iesuites They must proue Princes to be subiect to the Pope we need not proue them to be free The Bishops of Rome for 300. yeres endured heathē Princes Martin Polon in Iulio Liberio Platina in Bonifacio I. Martin Polon in Syluer Vigil Martino I. Caus. 2. quaest 7. Cap. Nossi The popes submission to the Emperour Ibidem Cap. Perrus A lewd elusiō of Gratian. The Prince superior to the Pope euē in causes ecclesiastical The quarel between Donatus Cecilian Lib. 10. Cap. 5. Lib. 1. contra Parmenianum epist. 162.166 alibi This quarell was forthings causes spiritual Constantine superior to Meltiades Euseb. lib. 10. Cap. 5. The Pope with others were authorized by the Prince to heare this cause August epist. 162. Epist. 166. Constantine himself would not at first fit iudge in the cause for want of skill August epist. 166. Cellatio 3. dici cum Donatistis The Prince receiued an appeale from the Pope Euseb. li. 10. Cap. 5. August epist. 166. And gaue thē other Iudges after the Pope August epist. 166. The Prince sate himselfe in iudgement both after the Pope and after the Councel Idem epist. 162. Idem contra Crescon lib. 3 Cap. 17. August epist. 166. The Prince made a penal law to confirme his finall decision Ibidem The Prince in these foure facts superior to the Pope The Prince willeth Flauianus to keepe his Church after foure Popes had repelled him for no Bishop Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 23. Sozom. lib. 8. cap. 28. Arcadius denied the Pope a Councel punished the Bishops that kept his communion Niceph. lib. 13. cap. 30. Ex libro pontif in vita Bonifacij Epist. Bonifacij ad Honorium Augustum Rescript Honor. ad Bonifac. tom
attemptes against God and the Magistrate But as it seemed they trusted rather to their practises which haue beene of late verie rife with the Church of Rome than to their proofes of which theie bee vtterlie destitute and therefore they dispatched into your Highnesse Realme vnder the conduction of one more presumptuous than learned as his writing and disputing whiles hee liued declared a whole swarme of Boie-priestes disguised and prouided at all assaies with secrete instructions how to deale with all sortes of men and matters and with commission from Rome to confesse and absolue such as they should winne with anie pretence or policie to mislike the state and affect noueltie and to take assuraunce of them by vowe othe or other meanes that they shoulde bee euer after adherent and obedient to the Church of Rome and to the faith thereof which there made the ruder and vnwiser sort beleeue was christian and Catholike Religion onelie founded in their mouthes and the faith of their Fathers and yet that poison they caried couertlie in their hearts and cunninglie in their bookes that your Maiesties deceiued and beguiled Subiectes by the verie sequence of their Romish faith and absolution were tied to obeie the Pope depriuing your highnesse of the sword and scepter bound to assist him or whom he should send to take the same by force of armes out of your Highnesse handes I knowe most noble Soueraigne they stoutly denied this and earnestly protested in open audience that they had no such meaning but for their partes did account your Maiestie their lawfull and true Princesse and taught all others so to doe hauing first obtained like wilie Friers a dispensation at Rome that to auoide the present daunger they and all other their obsequents might serue and honour your Highnesse for a time vntill the bull of Pius the fifth might safely bee executed and it may bee the common sort of such as they peruerted were not acquainted with these hainous mysteries but yet this was the full resolution of them all which I last reported as well appeared by their examinations and this verie conclusion stood in their written bookes as a ruled case that they must rather loose their liues than shrinke from this ground-woorke that the Pope maie depriue your Highnesse of your Scepter and Throne and the reason is added because saie they it is a pointe of fayeth and requireth confession of the mouth though death insue This daungerous if not diuelish Doctrine was not printed nor publyshed to the sight of all your Subiectes vntill the time that some of the chiefe procurers and kindlers of this flame for these and other interprises of lyke condition and qualitie were by the iust course of your Highnesse Lawes adiudged to death After whose execution the almes-men of Antichrist sawe no remedie but they must either leaue their brethren as rightlie condemned for hatching rebellion vnder a shewe of Religion and bee in daunger to dissolue the plotte which they had laide to bring this Lande to the Popes subiection the true ende and intent of their Seminaries and full repaiment of all his charges or else with all their cunning vndertake the quarrell of their vn-holie father and pleade the cause of their vnluckie brethren Hauing no better choice they resolued as venturers must that haue a desperate case in hand to trie what successe they might gette by facing and shifting in such sort as the simple shoulde hardlie discerne them To that end haue they put foorth A Defence of English Catholikes Wherein according to their wonted vaine manie thinges are statelie and stoutelie auouched but nothing attempted or intended to bee prooued saue onelie the Popes power to depriue Princes which with all furniture of witte and woordes they labour to inferre not shaming to saie that Subiectes bearing armes against their naturall Princes vpon the Popes warraunt do an holy iust and honorable seruice and that this hath beene the faith of this Land euer since it was conuerted vnto Christ. Against this canker consuming the verie soule and conscience where it taketh holde I thought it not amisse to oppose the Soueraigne salue of Gods eternall will and commaundement and to let it appeare to your Graces people that Princes are placed by God and so not to bee displaced by men and subiectes threatned damnation by Gods own mouth if they resist from which no Popes dispensation shall saue them and therefore the Iesuits Doctrine in that point to be as wicked as their proofes bee weake hauing neither Scripture Councell nor Father for a thousande yeares that euer allowed mentioned or imagined anie power in Popes to depose Princes I haue thereto added a confirmation of the right which the Lawes of this Lande do attribute vnto your Highnesse and an explication of that othe which the Iesuits so much stumble at laieng my foundation in the sacred testimonies of the holie Ghost and persuing the same in the continual practise of Christs church for eight hundreth yeares vpward so long as there was either godlines in Bishops to regard their duties or corage in Princes to call for their owne and iustifieng euerie part thereof seuerallie and sufficientlie by diuine and humane both authorities and examples The Iesuites absurdities and allegations pretended against your Maiesties interest to beare the sword ouer all persons and in all causes without dependence or reference to anie earthlie tribunal or superior I haue likewise particularlie refelled and proued them both impertinent to their purpose and nothing obstant to that Supreme power of the sword which is claimed and vsed by your Maiestie but their obiections to be meere cauils mistakings of a matter which they do not or will not vnderstand as also their flieng this Realme and running to Rome I haue examined and not onelie found them repugnant to the ancient lawes of the Conqueror other your noble progenitors but also shewed great difference betweene the Catholike Fathers writing and sometimes going to the Bishop of Rome as to their fellow seruaunt and a dutifull subiect to the same state that they were our English Italians giuing him an Antichristian power to turne wind the whole church at his will and dispose kingdomes and displace Princes if they be not obedient and suppliant to his Censures Lastlie because the temper and colour of all their wicked sayings doings is the catholik faith the catholik seruice I haue entered a speciall discourse that the reformation of the church in this Realme made by your Maiesties power lawes is wholie truelie catholike such as the Scriptures do preciselie command the ancient fathers expresly witnes was the faith and vse of Christes church for manie hundrethes These things most religious worthie Princesse I haue done sincerely that the doctrine precepts of our Sauior might take place before the deuises pleasures of mē familiarly that the meaner sort of your subiects which are most obnoxious
wils you be deceiued not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God which maketh those willing at last which were vnwilling at first Did the Niniuites repent against their willes because they did it at the compulsion of their king What needed the kings expresse commandement that all men should humbly submit themselues to God but that there were some amongst them which neither would haue regarded nor beleeued Gods message had they not bene terrified by the kings edict This Princely power and authoritie giueth many mē occasion to be saued which though they were violently brought to the feast of the great housholder yet being once cōpelled to come in they find there good cause to reioyce that they did enter against their willes When Petilian obiected that no man must be forced by lawes to doe well or to beleeue S. Austen replieth To faith in deed may no man vnwilling bee forced but yet by Gods iustice or rather mercy The breath of faith is chastened with the rod of affliction Because the best thinges are freely chosen with good lyking must not therefore ill deedes be punished by syncere Lawes You be not forced to doe well by these lawes that are made against you but forbidden to doe euill Preposterous were discipline to reuenge your ill liuing but when you first contemne the doctrine that teacheth you to liue well And euen they which make lawes to bridle your headynes are they not those which beare the sworde as Paul speaketh not without cause being Gods ministers and executors of wrath on him that doth ill Who list to be farther satisfied that Christian Princes may compel their subiects to the true worship of God prescribed in his word and punish the refusers let him read at large the places aboue cited or shortly consider that the spirit of God cōmendeth king Iosiah for making all Ierusalem and Beniamin to stand to the couenant which he renewed with God and COMPELLING ALL THAT WERE FOVND IN ISRAEL TO SERVE THE LORD THEIR GOD. So that you might haue well spared your wanton complaint to God and kept in your Crocodiles teares Your Soueraigne doeth nothing against you but what is agreeable to Gods and mans lawe consonant to the doctrine of our Churhes much easier than that which your selues practised on others neither is this our question what rites you consented vnto but what fayth Christ deliuered his Church in the writings of his Apostles and Euangelists for to that euery man which is baptised may bee lawfully forced by the Princes authoritie let him and his forefathers assent to what they list except you can proue that baptisme serueth no longer for a sacrament of Christian religion but goeth now for a Romish recognisance Phi. Our griefe of heart is much encreased either when we looke into other States and Countries as Germania Suitzerland Suecia Boemia and the like where though there haue bene great alterations in religion these late yeeres yet lightly none bee forced so but if they can not haue the exercise of their profession in one torritorie Canton towne Church or Parish yet they may haue it neere them in an other as also in all the Prouinces and Kingdomes subiect either to the Persians or the Turke at this day The old Christians be permitted to vse freely their deuotions or when we looke backe to the like distresses of Catholikes in old time when certaine Emperours were chiefe fautors of Arianisme and other Sectes who yet were often enduced of their naturall benignitie to yeeld certaine Churches or at lest Oratories in Churchyards and other places adioyning for the Catholique seruice in their dominions So did Constantius the Arian Emperour Valens graunt to S. Athanasius and his followers in Alexandria which Valens God plagued afterward because he would not suffer the same at Antioche Valentinian also the yonger profered the like to S. Ambrose in Millan Theo. Are you well in your wits to lament the lacke of that in this Realme which God in plaine words detesteth and with sore plagues reuengeth Haue you forgotten how sharply king Achab and the commons of Israel were reproued of Elias for that error He did not say why permit you not those that will to the Lord those that list to Baal but how long halt you betweene two sides or opiniōs If the Lord be God follow him forsaking al other if Baal be God get you after him Since then it is confessed on both partes yours and ours that there can bee no God saue the Lord and hee neuer ment to surrender any piece of his glorie but is so ielous of it that hee wil be serued and onely serued with all our heart mind and strength these things I say being out of question I recken it can not stande with a Princes duetie to reuerse this heauenly decree THOV SHALT VVORSHIP THE LORD THY GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOV SERVE with establishing two religions in one Realme the first authorized by Christ bequeathed in his testament to the Church the next inuented of Antichrist and flatly repugnant to the propheticall and Apostolicall scriptures For if God be trueth they which presume to worship him with lies as in contrarie faith must needes come to passe serue nowe not God but the deuill a lyer himselfe and the father of lyes whose seruice no Christian Prince may so much as tolerate What are saith Vincentius strange Gods but strange errors which the scriptures so cal figuratiuely for that heretiques reuerence their opinions no lesse than the Gentiles their Gods By the which wee learne that the first precept forbidding moe Gods than one barreth all other seruices of the same God saue that which himselfe hath appointed for himselfe It is the vilest basest kinde of idolatrie when men worship their owne fansies obseruing that for a religion which their deceiued and swelling minds imagine Then may not Princes winke at corrupt vitious religion which is an inward ghostly worship of Idoles seeing no man therefore no Prince can serue two masters the seruice that Princes yeelde Christ in respect of their royall vocation consisteth in making lawes for Christ which if they doe likewise for Antichrist it can not be salued but that they serue God and Mammon or rather cease to bee the seruaunts of Christ in that they renounce their master by seruing his aduersarie Nowe what accompt God will exact for his name blasphemed his sonne refused his sacraments prophaned his word exiled and what answere must be made for the ruine of faith haruest of sinne murder of soules consequent alwaies to the publique freedome of heresies I leaue to bee fully considered and wisely preuented by Christian Magistrates who must thinke that silence prouoketh sufferance boldeneth their subiectes to forsake God and his Church euen as in ciuill affaires the slacking of iustice doth maintaine disorder So that in this point your defender betrayeth his vnsetled humor which
The Scriptures commend Iosiah for compelling the people to serue God the seruant is charged to compell the guestes that were loth to come God hath ordained the sword which neuer entreateth or perswadeth but onlie commaundeth and compelleth to punish falshood and assist truth Now men that bee willing neede no forcing ergo Princes may compell their subiectes that is constraine them against their wils to keepe the faith and communion of Christs Church notwithstanding they pretend or in deede haue neuer so resolute and strong an opinion to the contrarie The Donatistes rather than they would bee forced from their fansies slew themselues yet this did nothing fraie the Church of God froÌ„ compelling them by the rigour of Princes lawes without any respect to their wilful desperation We graunt he that woundeth a weake conscience sinneth against Christ mary to be grieued with that which is good is no weakenesse but wickednesse and he that tendereth or regardeth a wicked conscience by your leaue is a fauorer and confirmer of his euill works To such saith Paul I gaue no place no not an hour for if I should so please meÌ„ I were not the seruant of Christ. We may not for thinges indifferent trouble the weake mindes of our brethren yet this rule bindeth no Magistrate to remit the punishment of error and infidelitie because God hath charged them to suffer no kinde of euill vnreuenged and this is the greatest whose voice they must heare whose will they must obeie though they were sure thereby to scandalize neuer so many both aliens subiectes Phi. Wo to that man by whom offences come Theo. True Sir but an offence fondly taken not iustly giuen entangleth no man besides the taker Blessed is he saith Christ that is not offended at me Where cursed is he that taketh an offence the giuer is blessed for euer We preach Christ crucified a stumbling blocke to the Iewes and wo to me saith Paul if I preach not the Gospell yet doth it bring the wicked to their destruction and is the sauour of death vnto death in them that perish Then as the minister must dispense the worde of truth be therewith offended and greiued who list so the Magistrate may drawe the sworde of iustice to compell and punish such as bee blindly led or maliciouslie bent to resist sound doctrine without any respect what afterward befalleth such ouerthwart creatures If vpon compulsion desperation ensue wo not to the compeller vsing those meanes which God hath appointed and discharging that duetie which God hath commaunded but wo rather and double wo to the despayrer who first framed his conscience to forsake truth and beleeue lies and nowe receiuing the iust reward of his error hath his heart hardened that when good discipline which healeth others is applied as a wholesome medicine to recouer him it causeth or sheweth him to be past cure without any sinister action or ill intention of the Magistrate Thus much for the making and exacting of that oth The contents whereof shall be fully discussed when we come to the place which I named We stand too long I feare about these foolish and impertinent quarels I will passe to your second Chapter as finding nothing left in your first but an action of vnkindnesse against such as call you Fugitiues which name you well deserue though you be loth to beare Phi. That is but your saying which wee little regard Theo. Much lesse neede wee regard your slaunderous and false reports published of purpose to deface this Realme they bee but your sayinges which no good man esteemeth Phi. You fall now to wordes Theo. What else haue you done since we began We be now come to the shutting vp of your first Chapter reuiew the same what one line what one letter haue you proued that hurteth vs or helpeth you Phi. You were not here to looke for many Scriptures or Fathers we giue you the reasons of our departure which bee matters of fact and admit no proofes Theo. If you can not proue them wee neede not disproue them and so let vs end with this and proceede to the next Phi. You answere not halfe that which we haue obiected Theo. You obiect much proue litle which forceth me to neglect the most part of that you haue obiected For when you heape vp idle words that are but winde and raigne ouer your aduersaries with Lordlike vauntes which are better despised than answered why should I follow your vaine humor or bring the cause of Christ to a meere brable or wordes as your Apologie doth Phi. Say your pleasure Theo. Your first Chapter we haue seene what doth your seconde containe Phi. The causes of our repairing sometime to the Citie and Court of Rome Theo. If this be all I will neuer open my mouth for the matter Your priuate actions and secret purposes we can not see wee neede not search Therein you may pretende what you please without any truth and wee beleeue what we list without any wrong Phi. In faith and truth they were none other but to make humble sâ—te for the establishment and perpetuall foundation of the College or Seminarie which his Holinesse had long before instituted in place of the hospitall of our nation there this was one thing Another was that the Gouernours of that College in Rome aboue and of this other now resident in Rhemes beneath might giue and take mutuall direction for correspondence in regiment discipline and education most agreeable to our Countrie mens natures and for preuention of all disorders that youth and companies of Scholers namely in banishment are subiect vnto Theo. It may be this you did but did you nothing else Phi. It was strongly surmised we know that our going to Rome was to procure some matter against the Prince but God is our witnesse it was no part of our meaning Theo. That intelligence was giuen by such as were daily conuersant with you and those articles of confederacie betweene the Pope and others to inuade this Realme were rife in your Seminaries there and closely sent to your friendes here but whether interprised followed by coÌ„mon consent amongst you or only deuised scattered by some of you to strike a feare in the peoples harts to make them the readier for your perswasions we can not exactly say this wee be sure such practises in subiects be lewd seditious Phi. If that informatioÌ„ were true Theo. What reasons haue you to proue it false Phi. Enow The second chapter of our Apologie doth refell it at large Theo. You refell it in deed as your maner is that is you say that you wil without any further proofe or paines Certain yong fellowes say you Fugitiues from their Masters depreheÌ„ded in diuerse cosinages counterfaiting of letters plaine thefts haue of malice hope of impunity and lucre traiterously slaundered you Thus as if you sate supreme Iudges ouer al the world you bring nothing to quite
dignitie but not ouer the rest in power and authoritie His place was first when the Patriarkes met but his voyce not negatiue he might assemble his prouince and consult with them but not conclude without them himselfe was subiect both to the decrees of Councels and to the lawes of the Christian Emperours euen in causes ecclesiasticall and was oftentimes not only resisted by famous men but ouer-ruled as well by prouinciall as ecumenicall Councels when he attempted any thing against the Canons Which differeth much from the supremacie that he now chalengeth and vsurpeth And therefore you did wel to walke in a mist of ambiguous wordes to couer the lamenesse of your conclusion Phi. Why did Athanasius flee to the Bishoppe of Rome for helpe if Iulius had nought to do with his matter Theo. Athanasius being wrongfully thrust from his Bishopricke and an other forciblie set in his roome by certaine Arians assembled at Antioche vpon this pretence that he was deposed in the Councell of Tirus before he was banished and after his returne presumed of his own head without a Councell to reenter and keepe his place and finding the East Church not able to succour him for that Constantius the Emperour supported his enemies with a strong hand fled to the Bishop of the West where Constans a religious and curteous Prince brother to Constantius raigned and made his complaint as reason was he should first to the Bishop of Rome the cheefest man amongst them and the ringleader of the rest with whom he was ioined in consort and communion as the right and true Patriarke of Alexandria desiring no more but that his case might be heard and the desperate and furious proceedings of his aduersaries against him examined in a iust and lawfull Councell Which petition of Athanasius doth not proue the West Bishops to be controllers and ouerseers of such things as were done in the East much lesse the Bishop of Rome to be supreme Iudge ouer all but rather sheweth that the Church of Christ was guided by the common consent and mutuall agreement of both parts as well East as West indifferently balanced and that the West Bishops might call for a reason of the sentence giuen against Athanasius before they allowed the same or receiued his successour to the felowship of their communion Phi. The ecclesiasticall historie saith otherwise that Athanasius opened his cause to Iulius Bishop of Rome and that hee vpon the prerogatiue of the Romane See wrote threatning letters in his behalfe and restored him to his place reprouing them that rashly deposed him Theo. Socrates as an Historiographer noteth in fewe wordes the chiefe points and chiefe persons but if you will take the paines to reade the particular discourse of these thinges which Athanasius writeth in defence of himselfe you shal find that true which I say Phi. What shall we finde Theo. That the West Bishops were ioyned with Iulius in all this action and nothing done without their Sinodal decree Phi. How proue you that Theo. First the letters of credit which Athanasius brought with him to Rome from the Bishops of his communion in Egypt Thebais Lybia Pentapolis witnessing the manifold wrongs which he suffered and earnestly crauing a dew reformation of the same were written not to Iulius alone but Omnibus vbique ecclesiae catholicae Episcopis to all the Bishops of the Catholique Church wheresoeuer hauing these words in the cōclusion For this cause in a publike assemblie by the consent of vs all wrate wee these letters vnto you praying your wisedomes in Christ to receiue this testimonie touching Athanasius to admit him to your fellowship and communion and to bee moued with a zealous indignation against the Eusebians his enemies the authors of these disorders and that such lewdnes and mischiefe preuaile no longer against the Church vos certe vindices huius iniustitiae imploramus we call for your help to be the reuengers of their vnrighteous dealing Haec quidem Aegyptij ad omnes ad Episcopum Romanum Iulium scripsere this they of Egypt wrate to all and to Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that in sight the complaint was made generally to them all Phi. But Iulius alone cited the contrarie part to appeare before him by a day limited and that argueth his authoritie ouer them that were not of his Prouince Theo. Iulius by the consent of both parts and aduise of all the Bishops of Italie and other places neere him appointed the matter to be heard in a Councell and exhorted the aduersaries of Athanasius to bee present at the time and place prefixed Phi. What a mincing you make of this matter Iulius cited that is Iulius exhorted them to come Iulius heard the cause that is Iulius called a Councell to heare it Theo. What a mountaine you make of a mole hill I repeate the very wordes of Iulius and good reason in his owne fact to beleeue him best Phi. If he say so but I doubt you mistake the words Theo. Then may you take them righter but I am perfect I misse them not Heare first what Athanasius and then after what Iulius writeth Quin Eusebiani ad Iulium literas misere vt nos terrerent Synodum conuocari iusserunt ipsi Iulio si vellet arbitrium causae detulerunt The Eusebians also sent letters to Iulius and the rather to fray vs willed a Synode to be called and Iulius himselfe to be Iudge in the cause if he would Which Socrates doeth not omit Eusebius verò cum quod volebat perfecisset legationem ad Iulium Romanum Episcopum misit obsecrans vt ipse Iudex esset in causa Athanasij ad se litem hanc vocaret Eusebius when he had done all that he woulde sent messengers to Iulius Bishop of Rome praying him to be Iudge in the cause of Athanasius and to call for the hearing of this contention Phi. Athanasius aduersaries seeme to consent that Iulius alone shoulde sit Iudge in this cause Theo. That Iulius as chiefe but not that Iulius alone should examine this quarel For they required to be heard in a common Councell both of East and West Bishops Phi. As yet I see no such thing Theo. Say not so for Athanasius euen now told you that his enemies to fray him in their letter to Iulius willed a Councell to be held for this matter and Iulius in his epistle replying to those that were gathered at Antioch the second tyme writeth thus What is there done worthie of offence or what cause haue I giuen you to whom I wrate to be angrie An quia adhortati vos sumus vt ad Synodum occurreretis Is it for that we exhorted you to meet vs at a Synode The Bishops assēbled in the great Coūcel of Nice not without the wisedom of God gaue leaue that the acts of one Synode myght be discussed in an other to this end that both they which were Iudges knowing a secōd examination of the
a societie with the East Bishops for himself and the rest of his prouince as hauing no lesse interest in the Church than they had Phi. What say you then to the prerogatiue of the Romane See and to that ecclesiastical Canon which forbiddeth to meddle in the Church without the consent of the Romane Bishop Theo. The Bishop of Rome had this prerogatiue that first he should be written vnto by reason of his place which was first but not that he alone should be written vnto So saith Iulius Cur igitur in primis de Alexandria ciuitate nihil nobis scribere voluistis an ignari estis hanc esse consuetudinem vt primùm nobis scribatur vt hinc quod iustum est definiri posset Why then would you write nothing to vs especially touching the citie of Alexandria Are you ignorant of this custome that you shoulde write to vs first that hence that which is iust might bee determined Phi. No better text from Rome must bee determined what is right in the regiment of the Church Theo. A wise catch I promise you Did you not heare Iulius euen now speake the same wordes of euery Bishoppe Vt ab omnibus quod iustum esset decerneretur that euery one might determine what was iust So that Iulius by this had no greater authoritie than the rest for right was to bee determined by them all Phi. The Canon of the Church made euery thing voyde that was done without the Bishop of Rome Theo. That which you call a Canon in deed was an order taken by the Bishops among thēselues for the better guiding of the Church by common consent when as yet there were no Christian Magistrates and the same was afterward liked and allowed of Godly Princes as the best way to keepe the Church in peace from quarrels and factions And this it was In waightie matters no prouinciall Councell might deale without consulting the rest of the Patriarkes who straightway conferring with the Bishoppes of their Prouinces wrate backe the generall opinion of themselues and their brethren This if any Councell did omit the Prouinces rounde about were at libertie to reiect their proceedings if they saw cause This Canon or kind of regiment obserued in the Church Iulius obiecteth against the councel of Antioch Oportuit secundum Canonem iudicium fieri Iudgement should haue proceeded according to the Canon that is Oportuit omnibus nobis scribere vt ab omnibus quod esset iustū decerneretur You should haue written to vs al that that which was iust might haue beene concluded by all And as by the Canon they should haue written to al so first to the Bishop of Rome by reason that his place was the first in order among the Patriarkes which is all the prerogatiue that Iulius in his Epistle claymeth for himselfe and his See This is that ecclesiasticall Canon and priuilege which Socrates and Sozomenus doe mention when they say the Councell of Antioch did against the Canons in that they called not the Bishop of Rome to their assemblie Phi. The deposition of a Bishoppe was no matter of such importance that a Prouinciall Synode might not attempt it without the rest Theo. Yes the deposing of a Patriarke was in it selfe a matter of great weight and required the consent of the rest as appeareth by that which the Councell of Antioch long before this did against Paulus Samosatenus where you shall finde the causes of his condemnation layde downe at large in their letters written to all Prouinces and namely to Dionysius and Maximus Bishops of Rome and Alexandria but yet the wrong offered Athanasius at this time touched the fayth Church of Christ nearer than one mans iniurie Phi. Why Theo. The Arians by their shifts and practises had almost gotten the most part of the East Churches and finding the two principall Archbishops of Constantinople and Alexandria greatly to hinder their enterprise for that their prouinces were very wide and many that stoutly defended the trueth were shielded by them they thought best to inuade them both at one time thrusting Paulus from his Bishopricke by plaine force and pretending a Canon of their owne making against Athanasius Which if the West Bishops had quietly suffered without enterposing them selues and assisting their brethren two parts of the worlde by their silence had beene drowned in Arianisme and themselues in great danger not long to remaine without the same infection This respect made them earnest for Athanasius as Sozomene noteth The Bishops throughout the East that fauoured the Nicene faith were deposed and the cheefest Seates inuaded by the Arrians as Alexandria in Egypt Antioche in Syria the Royal Citie of Constantinople in Hellespont This the Bishop of Rome the Priests of the west tooke to be their reproch and therefore very friendly entertayned Athanasius at his comming to them and tooke vpon them the defence of his cause Phi. This is not all that Iulius did for Athanasius Theo. What els can you shew that hee did Phi. Hee called a generall Councell to determine this matter and made Constantius the Emperour glad to receiue Athanasius to his former seate Theo. By mine aduise you should haue left out this it will come very short of your reckoning Phi. Not a whit Theo. Be not so peremptorie Phi. What was not this that I say done for Athanasius Theo. It was Phi. Who then besides Iulius could bring this to passe Theo. An other if you could light on him Phi. What was he Theo. Constans the West Emperour Phi. Who sayth so besides you Theo. The three writers of the Church storie which with one consent agree that the West Emperour called the Councel and threatened his brother if Athanasius and Paulus were not suffered to enioy their former places Iulius when the letters which he sent touching Paulus and Athanasius did nothing preuaile with the East Bishoppes opened their cause to Constans the Emperour Constans wrote to his brother that he should send some of the Bishops of the East to shewe him the reason why these men were deposed Three were chosen who comming to Italie went about to perswade the Emperour that the Synode of the East Bishops had done well and Constans perceiuing they had done vniustly sent thē backe whence they came And because Constans requiring this fauour at his brothers hands that Athanasius the rest with him might be restored could not obtaine so much and those that were with Paulus and Athanasius getting to his presence besought him that a Synode might be called it pleased the Emperour that the bishops of either side should meet at Sardica by a certaine day prefixed Phi. It might please him they should do so but how proue you the thither they came by his authoritie Theo. Athanasius going to Constans bewayled vnto him the violence that was offered the Apostolicke faith Putting the Prince in mind of his fathers acts that the
and Paul in the fifteenth yeare of his conuersion or as himselfe speaketh After fourteene yeares came not to Rome but to Ierusalem to conferre with Peter which at least must be the 48. yeare of Christ and foure yeares after Peters installation at Rome And after that when Peter came to Antioch and began to dissemble for feare of the Iewes which were sent from Iames Paul resisted him to his face and sharpely rebuked him not respecting that hee was then in his pontificalibus and newly made Bishop of Rome as you your selues beleeue Now choose whether you will disclaime Peter for no Bishop of Rome and so loose your succession from him or graunt that the Bishop of Rome may be lawfully resisted as Peter was which is the very thing you required vs to proue One of these twaine you shall neuer auoide do what you can Phi. I may not deny that Paul did it the Scripture is plaine I resisted him to his face but whether he did no more than he might or how to his face is a Schole-point and a pretie question Theo. No question at all vnlesse you will charge Paul with rashnesse in doing it vnshamefastnesse in writing it and wilfulnesse in directlie defending it For by this dissention doth he proue the â—oundnesse of his doctrine and by Peters yeelding hee confirmeth the Galathians that were wauering And therefore you must either allowe this resistaunce for good and lawfull or else conclude this Epistle to bee no Scripture and Paul to be voide of the holy Ghost in proposing an vnhonest and vngodly fact of his owne for a president which to say were no small blasphemie Phi. I did not auouch it but only moue the question Theo. You must moue no such questions if you be a Christian they be reprochfull to the spirit of God and iniurious to his word You were driuen to a narrow straite when you came to this shift You be loth I see to confesse either but there is no remedy Philander you must yeelde vs one of these whether you will or no. Phi. Let me heare the rest and then you shall know my minde Theo. Resist not truth to maintaine your credit God will surely reuenge it This example is ineuitable studie till your braines ake for an answere But the rest you shall heare Polycarpus being at Rome when Anicetus was Bishop there they dissenting in some other small matters were by and by reconciled but touching the obseruation of Easter-day which in diuerse places was diuersely kept Anicetus could not perswade Polycarpus to leaue those thinges which he had alwayes obserued with Iohn the Disciple of our Lord and the rest of the Apostles with whom he had beene conuersant Phi. The contention was but in words betweene them Theo. Yes they differed in deedes and Polycarpus could not be induced by any wordes to follow that manner of celebrating Easter-day which Anicetus receiued from those Apostles that founded the Romane Church This coÌ„trouersie waxed hoatter in Victors time who for the very same cause went about to cut off al the Churches of Asia from the vnitie of communion as intangled with some strange opinion and by letters inueighed against them and vtterly denounced al the brethren there excommunicated but for all his hast he was quickly staied Phi. By whom Theo. Polycrates in the behalfe of the Churches of Asia amongest other thinges replyeth thus to Victor I that haue seene threescore fiue yeares in the Lord and haue coÌ„ferred with the brethren throughout the world and haue turned and searched the holy Scripture will neuer be afraid of those thinges that are done to terrifie me I could make mention of the Bishops that are with me whoÌ„ you required me to send for and so I did whose names if I would recken they would make a great multitude which taking the paines to visit me a man of small account consent to this Epistle Victors deede did not please all the Bishops that otherwise were of his side Yea many of their letters saith Eusebius are extant that did sharply reproue Victor Amongest whom Ireneus was one that wrote in the name of his brethren of Fraunce where he was chiefe and allowed Victors opinion that the mysterie of the Lordes resurrection should bee kept onely vpon Sundaie But yet he wisely and largelie warneth Victor that he should not excommunicate all the churches of God obseruing their auncient tradition Phi. They withstood him in a small and trifling cause Theo. You take holde of that which doth hurt you To resist whom they should not in a matter that they neede not is a double offence and then shoulde Ireneus and others haue rather reproued Polycrates and his adherentes for neglecting their dueties than the Bishop of Rome for passing his boundes but in that hee was stoutly resisted by the one and sharpelie reproued by the other it is euident that neither of them tooke him for his sole and supreme directer of Christes Church on earth Of Cyprian I said before that he counselled the Church of Spain to reiect Basilides notwithstanding his restitution by Stephanus Bishop of Rome and howe vehemently the saide Stephanus was resisted by Cyprian for the rebaptizing of such as forsooke their heresies his Epistle to Pompeius doth aboundantlie witnesse Because you desired to knowe what aunswere our brother Stephanus Bishoppe of Rome returned to our letters I haue sent you a copie of that he wrote By the reading whereof you shall more and more perceiue his error that hee laboureth to maintaine the cause of heretickes against the Church of God For amongest other thinges either superfluous or impertinent or contrarie to themselues which he writeth vnskilfully and vnwisely hee added this c. And hauing repeated and refuted the wordes of Stephanus What blindnesse of heart saith Cyprian is this and what peruersenesse that hee will not acknowledge the vnitie of faith comming from God the Father by the deliuery of our Lorde Iesus Christ And where no heresie no nor schisme can haue the sanctification of healthfull baptisme out of the Church why doth the inflexible obstinacie of our brother Stephanus breake out so farre that of Martions baptisme and such like blasphemers against God the Father he auoucheth children may be borne vnto God It commeth of too much presumption and frowardnes that a man had rather defende his owne though it bee false and naught than yeelde to an others deedes and words How like you this resisistance doth it go to the quicke or no Phi. This was an error in Cyprian for Stephanus held the truth Theo. The question is not whether Cypryan were deceiued but whether Stephanus were resisted I grant in this case Stephanus had the better part but yet Cyprian the Bishops of Africa thought theÌ„selues to be right vpon that opinion of truth how far they resisted the Bishop of Rome their acts Epistles declare Phi. Their matter I tel you was naught
do the like Thirdly since the Romane Emperors were wōt to cōmand him what reason cā you bring why christiā princes shold not now restrain him And last of al if you forget not your self my promise was to shew that not in the primatiue Church only when there was no question of his obedience to religious princes but in latter times when the Bishop of Rome presumed to be Lorde ouer all he was controled resisted by those Councels Common-wealthes which your owne Church neuer durst reiect as schismaticall and hereticall Phi. In some thinges they withstood him but not in all thinges as you doe Theo. That shift is litle worth If resistāce be lawful in part why not in al whē iust cause requireth Phi. In matters of faith they neuer resisted Theo. That maketh our resistāce the more lawful They withstood him for an earthly policy we for Christes glorie they for externall discipline we for Apostolicall doctrine Therefore if they might lawfully resist much more may we But my demand is onely whether you see that as the Bishop of Rome withstood others in the regiment of the Church so many Councels Countries Princes Prelats withstood him as the places which I bring conuince Phi. What if they did Theo. First did they that which I speake or no Phi. Grant they did Theo. Then your examples conclude nothing against vs. For as hee resisted others in causes Ecclesiasticall so did others resist him and our examples inferre against you that your owne Church neuer obeied that supreme power and infallible iudgement which he now claimeth you now yeeld to flatter him with Phi. They tooke him for Christes Uicar and Peters successour Theo. How they tooke him in latter ages it greatly skilleth not the learned and ancient Fathers call him Peters successor Christes Uicar they neuer call him And graunt he be Peters successor that importeth no supremacie Phi. Doth it not Theo. No mary doth it not You must first proue that Peter was supreme gouernour of all the Church which you shall neuer do Next you must proue that this dignitie was not proper to Peters person but common to Peters successour which we denie For Peters primacie was giuen him in respect of the confession which he made not in respect of the place which he should inioy Lastly you must shew which of Peters chayres must haue Peters priuiledge that is why Rome rather than Antioch These three points when you iustly proue we will say more to your vaine pretences and glorious titles in the meane time till occasion serue to make farther triall you may go forwarde with the rest of your Apologie which if it be like this it will do your friendes litle good and your foes lesse hurt Phi. You disgrace that which you can not disproue Theo. Wee neede no better disproofe than the sober reading of your insolent and impertinent discourses purposely made to commend and aduaunce your selues and your adherentes aboue the skies Phi. Where do we so Theo. Almost in euerie leafe For example this whole chapter is spent in flattering your holy Father praising his deuout citie The next hath nothing else but the commendation of your selues your Seminaries as if the proclaiming of his your vertues were the chiefest point of his and your faith Phi. You say not well we do not so Theo. Reade the places you shall finde them full of these and such like flowers To Rome Whatsoeuer is learned wise vertuous of all the most famous Vniuersities Monasteries Societies and Celleges through the world is recuiled as to a continuall mar◠of all kinde of doctrine prudence And againe These and such other high experiments with innumerable examples of vertue and deuotion shall this Romane institution giue to our Countrimen vnder the famousest teachers gouernours of youth in our age or som worlds before Who otherwise would admire their pety masters at home the cause of al error ignorāce Ar you not liberal in praising your selues Belike you thinke with your only looks to daūt all the Diuines preachers of Englād as if not a fewe wandring friers craking Iesuites but some new Cyprians or famous Augustins were lately arriued at your Romish Seminarie But let passe your follies come to your autorities To what end aleage you S. Hierō Phi. S. Hierom calleth Rome the place of greatest faith and deuotion Theo. What then Ierusalem was first a faithfull Citie yet in time became a shamelesse strumpet Niniueth was spared for her true repentance afterward plagued for her robberies and lies What Rome was then doeth no way proue what Rome is now You must send vs better reasons from Rome for Rome before you shall perswade vs that there is at Rome such store of learning and vertue as you vaunt of If Rome be changed since Hierom wrate your conclusiō halteth though his wordes goe right Phi. That change you must proue Theo. Alas good Sirs begin you now to doubt whether Rome be changed Reade your owne Friers Monkes and Abbots and you shall soone be resolued in that doubt Frier Mantuan sayth shortly but truely Viuere qui sanctè cupitis discedite Roma Omnia cum liceant non licet esse bonum You that wish to liue godly depart from Rome al things are there suffred saue godlines Mathew Paris a Monke of S. Albons euery where toucheth the vertues of the church of Rome saith they were known to the verie miscreants For when y◠Souldan of Iconium desired to be baptised from Rome his nobles by reason of so many vices abounding at Rome sayd Howe can there come sweet and salt water from the same fountaine whence Christians should fet the water of righteousnes there they find a poysoned pudle And in the yere of our Lord 1241 he sayth The vnsatiable greedines of the Church of Rome so increased confounding right and wrong that without shame as a common impudent harlot she lay open for money to euery man counting vsurie for a small fault and Symonie for none But no man more liuely describeth the maners and dispositions of the latter Romanes than Bernard Abbot of Clareuallis and that not priuily behind their backs but openly to their faces forewarning Eugenius the pope what to looke for at their hands Quid tam notum seculis quà m proteruia fastus Romanorum Gens insueta paci tumultui assueta Gens immitis intractabilis vsque ad huc subdi nescia nisi cum non valet resistere Experire paucis nouerim ne ego gentis mores Ante omnia sapientes sunt vt faciant mala bonum autem facere nesciunt Impij in deum temerarij in sancta seditiosi in inuicem emuli in vicinos inhumani in extraneos Hij sunt qui subesse non sustinēt praeesse non norunt superioribus infideles inferioribus importabiles inuericundi ad petendum ad negandum frontosi
the priest is Gods minister to reuēge male factors Peter himself was sharply rebuked by Christ for vsing the sword in Peter all Pastors Bishops are straitly charged not to meddle with it Al that take the sword shall perish with the sword And of al men a Bishop must be no striker For if he that should feede his masters houshold fal to striking he shall haue his portion with hypocrites The seruants of God must be gentle towards all instructing those that resist with mildnes not cōpelling any with sharpnes Their function is limited to the preaching of the word dispensing the sacraments which haue no kinde of cōpulsion in thē but inuite men only by sober perswasions to beleeue imbrace the promises of God To conclude pastors may teach exhort reproue not force cōmand or reuenge only princes be gouernors that is publik magistrates to prescribe by their lawes and punish with the sword such as resist them within their dominions which Bishops may not do speake we truth or no Phi. We grant Bishops be no magistrates neither haue they to do with the bodies or goods of mē which god hath permitted to the princes power but yet they be gouernors of soules which princes be not Theo. No better reason to warrāt our opinion The Bishops charge concerneth the souls of mē but the soule of mā can neither be forced nor punished by man ergo Bishops be no commanders nor punishers but only directors instructors of the flocke of Christ. Phi. That we know The. Thē since by gouernors we mean rulers such as God hath authorized to bear the sword why do you fondly cauil that the princes power to cōmand punish excludeth the Bishops vocation to teach exhort which is nothing so Phi. You say princes may command and punish as well Bishops as others Theo. If they bee subiectes no lesse than others why should they not obey the prince or abide the sword as wel as others Phi. Do you make them meere subiects Theo. Not I but he that said You must be subiect not only for feare of wrath but also for conscience sake Phi. Doth he speake that of clergymē Theo. He y◠speaketh of al exempteth none Let euery soule bee subiect to the higher powers c. In these words clergymen be not excepted ergo cōprised Out of this place Bernard reasoneth thus with an archbishop of Frāce Let euery soul be subiect If euery thē yours Who doth except you y◠be bishops frō this general speech He that bringeth an exceptiō vseth but a delusion For these things saith Chrysostom are commanded to all as well Priestes and Monks as secular men which appeareth by the first sentence Let euery soule bee subiect to the superiour powers yea though thou be an Apostle an Euangelist a Prophet or what soeuer thou be So Theodorete Whether he be Priest Bishop or Monk let them be subiect to Magistrates This doctrine dured in the Church a thousand yeares before your exemption of Clerkes from secular powers as you call them was knowen Paul teacheth euerie soule saith Theophilact whether he be Priest Monk or Apostle to be subiect and obey Princes He teacheth euery soule saith Oecumenius whether he be Priest Monk or Apostle to submit themselues to Magistrates Gregorie the first perceiued and yeelded this exposition to be true Power saith he ouer all men is giuen to my Lord the Emperour from heauen And least you should thinke priests exempted in the person of Christ he speaketh thus to Mauritius the Emperour Sacerdotes meos tuae manui commisi I haue put my Priestes into thy handes and dost thou withhold thy souldiers from my seruice And elsewhere writing of the same prince Christ hath granted him to be ruler not ouer souldiers only but ouer Priestes also This is euident by the whole course of the Scripture Whom did our Sauiour charge to giue to Caesar that which was Caesars Not Scribes and high Priests as well as others Christ himselfe was a priest and a prophet and yet he not onely submitted himselfe to the Romane Magistrate but confessed the presidēts power ouer him to be from heauen S. Paul appealed vnto Caesar appeared before Caesar as his lawful gouernor S. Iude detested thē for false prophetes that despised gouernment or spake euil of rulers It is no Religion it is rebellion against God his word for clergie men to exempt themselues from the princes power The commandement is general Let euery soule be subiect◠the punishment is eternall Whosoeuer resisteth power resisteth the ordināce of God and they that resist shall receiue to themselues damnation Phi. Yet reason the clergie be fauoured aboue the Laitie Theo. Tush we talke not what fauour princes may do well to shew but whether Clergie men by Gods law may chalenge an exemption from earthly powers or no Phi. Not except princes commaund against God And if they do so whom must lay men obey God or man Phi. No doubt God Theo. Then the prince cōmaunding against God all men are bound be they lay men or clerkes to prefer the will of God before the princes lawes but when the prince ioyneth with God and commaundeth for truth may the clergie resist the prince more than the people may Phi. They may not Theo. You say well Of the twaine they must rather obey that they may be teachers of obedience not in wordes onely but in deedes also For if they must admonish others to be subiect to principalities and obedient to Magistrates then must they not hinder their doctrine by their doings nor leade the rest by their example to contemn or resist powers which they should reuerence and obey Phi. By no meanes Theo. And in case the prince be repugnant to God may priestes or people be violent withstanders or must they rather be patient indurers of the sword Phi. They must not resist but in patience possesse their soules They that resist shal receiue iudgemēt Theo. Ergo whether princes be with God or against God Priests Bishops must with gladnes obey or with meekenes abide the sword Phi. They must Theo. And he that suffereth is a subiect as wel as he that obeyeth For if they be rulers that commaund punish certainely they be subiects that must obey the commandement or abide the punishment Phi. I think so Theo. Then monks Prists Bishops by Gods law be subiects as well as others and consequently Princes be Gouernours of all persons within their dominions bee they Prelates Prophetes Apostles or whatsoeuer they be Phi. In temporal things we graunt but not in spiritual Theo. Where Princes may lawfully commaund all subiects of dewtie must obey Phi. True but in Ecclesiastical causes Princes may not meddle Theo. So say you but if I proue that the Princes power and charge by Gods law reacheth as well vnto matters of religion as other things will you bethink your selues
You must bee subiect for conscience sake If the Saintes must bee subiect to Princes ergo the Church for the Church on earth is nothing els but the collection of Saintes And if euery soule that is euery man must bee subiect howe can the Church consisting of men bee exempted But if by the Church you meane the preceptes and promises giftes and graces of God preached in the Church and poured on the Church Princes must humbly obey them and reuerently receiue them as well as other priuate men So that Prophets Apostles Euangelists and all other buylders of Christes Church as touching their Persons bee subiect to the Princes power mary the word of trueth in their mouthes and the Seales of grace in their handes because they are of God not of themselues they be farre aboue the Princes calling and regiment and in those cases kinges and Queenes if they will bee saued must submit themselues to Gods euerlasting trueth and testament as well as the meanest of their people but this neither abateth the power which God hath giuen them ouer all men nor maketh them thrall to the Popes iudiciall processe to bee forced and punished at his pleasure and therefore this notwithstanding Princes bee supreme that is superiour to all and subiect to none but onely to God Phi. Who euer taught before you that Princes were subiect only to God Theo. The Church of Christ from the beginning Colimus Imperatorem vt hominem a Deo secundum solo Deo minorem Wee reuerence the Emperour sayth Tertullian as a man next vnto God and inferiour only to God Againe Deum esse solum in cuius solius potestate sunt a quo sunt secundi post quem primi ante omnes super omnes Deos hommes It is onely God in whose power alone Princes are in comparison with him they bee second and after him first afore all and ouer all both Gods and men So likewise Optatus Super Imperatorem non est nisi solus Deus qui fecit Imperatorem Aboue the Empe-rour is none but onely GOD who made the Emperour And Chrysostome Parem vllum super terram non habet The Emperour hath no peere on earth much lesse any superiour And that Princes are aboue all Saint Paul is cleare Let euery soule bee subiect to the Superiour powers All must bee subiect to them ergo they bee superiour to all and superiour to all is supreme Chrysostome calleth the Emperour The highest and head of all men vpon earth Iustinian sayth the Emperour hath receiued a common gouernement and Principalitie ouer all men Ambrose sayth of Theodosius that hee had power ouer all men And Gregorie as you hearde affirmeth that Power is giuen to Princes from heauen ouer all men not onely Souldiers but also Priestes And since I before concluded and you confessed all men were they Monkes Priestes Bishoppes or whatsoeuer to bee subiect to the Princes power and authoritie both in causes ecclesiasticall and temporall why shoulde that nowe bee reuoked or doubted Phi. I neuer did nor will confesse Princes to bee supreme For he that iudgeth on earth in Christes steade is aboue them all Theo. You come nowe to the quicke This very clayme was the cause why the woorde supreme was added to the othe for that the Bishoppe of Rome taketh vppon him to commaund and depose Princes as their lawfull and superiour iudge To exclude this wicked presumption wee teach that Princes be supreme rulers wee meane subiect to no superiour iudge to giue a reason of their doings but onely to God Phi. This you teach but this you can not prooue Theo. It forceth not what wee can doe The burden in this case to prooue is yours and not ours You say Princes bee subiect to the Popes Consistorie wee say they bee not Must wee prooue the negatiue or must you rather make good your affirmatiue Againe Saint Paul auoucheth with vs that euery soule is subiect to their power You contradict those woordes and say the Pope is not subiect but Superiour to Princes The generall in precise tearmes concludeth for vs you except the Pope must you not prooue your exception Phi. You be loth to proue you knowe the weakenes of your side Theo. You crosse the plaine wordes of the holy Ghost and woulde put vs to refute your fansies Phi. Wee say Christs Uicar is not included in those woordes Theo. Wee say the generall includeth euery particular Phi. How could Paul make Peter a subiect to Princes when Peter was none Theo. Why shoulde not Peter bee subiect to Princes when God himselfe pronounced by the mouth of Paul that euery soule was subiect to them Phi. Who euer constred S. Pauls words so besides you Theo. The Church of Christ neuer constred them otherwise Peter and the Bishoppes of Rome for the first three hundred yeeres did they not patiently submit themselues as subiects to those punishments and torments which heathen Princes inflicted on other Christians Phi. In deede they were martyred for the most part by the rage of Infidels that knewe them not Theo. And the Christians that knewe them neuer tooke armes to defend thē against the rage of Infidels but thought them subiect to higher powers by force of S. Pauls words as well as all other Bishoppes were Phi. They might not resist though they were wrongfully vexed Theo. And why might they not but because they were subiect by Gods ordinance to the Princes power Unlawfull violence might well bee resisted Phi. Christian Princes were neuer superiours to the Bishoppes of Rome Theo. Syr your courage is more than your cunning The Bishops of Rome for eight hundred and fiftie yeres after Christ that we can directly proue were duetifull and obedient subiects to Christian Emperours Phi. Are you not ashamed to tell such a tale Theo. Will you be ashamed of your error if I proue it a trueth Phi. Shewe mee that and I will yeeld the rest Theo. The rest is alreadie proued and this shall be presently shewed I might alleage that after the Romane Emperours began to professe the name of Christ Iulius and Liberius were banished by Constantius Bonifacius the first by Honorius Syluerius and Vigilius by Iustinian Martyne the first by Constantine the thirde and diuers other Popes by sundrie Princes but that I will skippe come to the submission of Leo the fourth made to Ludouike the West Emperour with these wordes If we haue done any thing otherwise than well and not dealt vprightly with those that are vnder vs wee will amend all that is amisse by the iudgement of your highnes beseeching your excellencie to sende for the better triall of these surmises such as in the feare of God may narrowly sift not onely the matters infourmed but all our doings great and smal as well as if your Maiestie were present so that by lawfull examination all may bee finished and nothing left vndiscussed or vndetermined In all things great and small the Pope
it well beseemeth a religious Prince to commaund Bishops in such things mary this was heauie to me that my Soueraigne Lord did not rebuke him for his pride but indeuor to bow me from my purpose which in this cause stand with humilitie and sinceritie to defend the Gospel and Canons Hee rather is worthie to bee threatned with your Maiesties commandement which refuseth to be subiect to the Canons he to be repressed which offereth a wrong to the vniuersall Church Let my Lord I beseech him somewhat respect me being his own whom he hath alwayes fauored aboue others which am also very desirous to yeeld him obedience and yet am I loth to be conuicted in that last fearfull iudgement of ouer much negligence Let my Soueraign Lord voutsafe to sit iudge in this matter himself or els to make him to surcease his inteÌ„t I as obedieÌ„t to my Lords precepts haue gentlely written to my said fellow Bishop humbly warned him to forgo that vaine title As much as in me lieth I am readie to obey the commandement of your Maiestie yet for that the cause is not mine but Gods not I alone but the whole church is troubled let my gracious Lord launce the right place where the wound is and subdue the patieÌ„t that resisteth him with the strength of his imperiall power Againe when Maximus was ordered Bishop of Salona within Gregories Prouince yet without Gregories knowledge thus he coÌ„planeth of him to Constantia then Empresse The Bishop of Salona was ordered neither I nor my respoÌ„sarie witting therof which thing was neuer atteÌ„pted vnder any of the Princes your predecessors Assoone as I vnderstood therof I sent him word that he should not presume to celebrate diuine seruice that he meaneth by the name of Masse vntill I heard from my Soueraigne Lords that it was their pleasure it should be so but he setting naught thereby despising me goeth on stil will not resort vnto me according as my Lords coÌ„manded him Yet I obeying their graces precept did from my hart remit vnto the said Maximus this his presumption as freely as if he had been ordered Bishop by my consent Onely other offences of his as fleshly wantonnes entrance by Simony ministring the Lords supper after he was put from the coÌ„munioÌ„ these things I can not skip vnexamined for my duties sake to God before these things could be tried my soueraign Lord preuenting me with his precept commanded that I should receiue the said Maximus at his comming with all honour This is a pitifull case that a man accused of so great crimes should be honored before hee bee cleared if the faultes of those Bishops which be committed to my charge be born out with my gracious Lords in this sort by secret fauorers vnhappy man that I am what make I here in this church Wel that mine own Bishops contemne me haue a refuge against me to secular iudges I can not but thanke God impute it to my sinnes If the Bishop of Rome despised and ouerruled in his Episcopall iurisdictioÌ„ neither plead his own supremacy nor once kick at the Princes autority but rather submit himselfe as a seruant subiect of duty to the princes pleasure so far as he might with a safe conscience to Godward besides the man so religious the matter so serious that in this case iesting were not excusable lying intollerable then may you be fully resolued that the primatiue church neuer heard of this leud arrogant presumption which the Pope now claimeth vsurpeth I meane to be master deposer of Princes but that contrariewise the Bishops of Rome themselues euen in causes Ecclesiasticall kept the lawes and obeied the precepts of Christian Emperours as of their liege Lords soueraigne rulers The wordes of Gregorie be so vehement euident to this effect that no face caÌ„ deny them no cunning auoid them You must needs seeke farther for a new distinction Your first is foolish your second is false neither of them coherent with the sacred Scriptures or auncient histories Neither was Gregory the last Bishop of Rome that yeelded obedience to the princes power in causes ecclesiastical Agatho Bishop of that See 680. yeares after Christ when Constantine the 1. sent for certaine learned skilful men of the West parts to treat confer with the Grecians in the sixt general councell about the truth of religion returned this dutiful effectual answere Most gracious Lord saith he to CoÌ„stantine ioyning with him Heraclius Tiberius his brethren your sacred letters incouraging vs to shew foorth effectually our prompt diligent seruice for perfourming that which your edict coÌ„maunded for discharge of our duty to choose the fittest that could be found in this decaied age wretched prouince we haue directed these our fellow seruants according to the most godly precept of your Maiesty in regard of obedieÌ„ce which we did ow not for presumption of their knowledge for we waxed not bold vpon their cunning but your princely fauor mildly coÌ„manding so much did incite vs our basenesse hath obediently fulfilled that which was by you commaunded And in his second epistle to the same Princesse he saith Al the Bishops of the North West partes seruants of your christian Empire giue thanks to God for this your religious intent The calling of generall Councels to debate matters of faith is a point that precisely concerneth the regiment of Christs church in that case we see the Bishop of Rome confesseth himselfe a seruant sheweth himselfe obedient to the princes precept assuring vs by plaine words and agâ—eeable deeds that this humility proceeded not froÌ„ any iesting humor or fained submission but from the singlenes of his hart in respect of his bounden duty which auerreth our assertion clearly conuinceth that the Princes authoritie was then superiour to the Popes euen in causes Ecclesiasticall which you defend to be no way pertinent to the ciuill magistrate I wil end with Leo the 4. the selfsame that first submitted himself to Lodouik the father after coÌ„firmed his obedience to Lotharius the son in these words As touching the chapters imperiall preceps of your Highnes the Princes your predecessors irrefragablely to be kept obeied as much as in vs did or dothly we by al meanes professe that we wil by Christes helpe now and for euer obserue the same if any man hath or shall informe otherwise your Maiestie may right well assure your selfe it is an vntrue tale The chapters of Charles Lodouike and Lotharius for persons and causes Ecclesiastical I repeated before to those the Bishop of Rome eight hundred and fiftie yeares after Christ promiseth and sweareth not onely present but also perpetuall obedience to the vtmost of his power without all contradiction It is easie to see which of these twaine was superiour hee that had power to make Lawes not he that was bound
as by the seede of her husbande Thou wast conceiued in that thou receiuedst the name of Christ and the Lorde to make his wisedome milke for vs came clothed with flesh vnto vs. Shee is a most true mother which openeth her bosome to all nations when they shall bee newe borne and offereth her teates when they are newe borne The teeth cheekes and lippes of this spouse wee vnderstande sayth Ambrose to bee the vertues of the soule Yea the Church is life and as Paul sayth the Pillour of trueth These speeches and others that might bee alleaged shewe the Church to bee resembled to a woman and trueth sayth life grace and such like giftes of Godâ— bee counted not onely the garments but euen the bowels and partes of the Church And therefore the name of the Church sometimes imployeth as well the thinges that bee in the Church as the persons that bee of the Church which was the third point that I noted Phi. These speeches bee figuratiue Theo. I did not seeke for the proprietie but the vse of the woord and yet in proper speach persons without these thinges are not the Church and in the very definition of the Church as well thinges as persons bee comprised Phi. In deede persons enduen with those giftes and graces of God that bee needefull for eternall life are properly the Church but thinges without Persons are not the Church Theo. I do not exclude Persons but include those thinges which cause the Persons to bee members of the Church Phi. I will not much impugne that Theo. Returne then to the woordes of Ambrose which occasioned me to make this distinction A good Emperour is not aboue the church Not aboue the Church vniuersal for that consisteth of men Angels aboue whom princes be not Neither aboue the Church militant in earth for that containeth all the faithfull of all ages and Countries ouer whom there can bee no Prince but onely Christ. Phi. And what For the Church dispersed through the Romane Empire in the time of S. Ambrose was the Prince aboue it or no Theo. You must here distinguish the thinges proposed in the Church from the Persons that were members of the Church The Persons both Laymen and Clerks by Gods lawe were the Princes subiects the thinges comprised in the Church and by God himselfe committed to the Church because they were Gods coulde bee subiect to the power and will of no mortall creature Pope nor Prince Phi. Say that againe Theo. In shorter termes the Prince was aboue the Persons in the Church but not aboue the thinges in the Church Phi. Aboue the Persons but not aboue the thinges in the Church What thinges meane you Theo. Those thinges which God commaundeth in his Church and requireth of his Church Phi. I vnderstande you not Theo. Understande you our sauiour when hee sayth Giue vnto God the things which bee Gods Phi. Hee meaneth as I take it faith deuotion holynes repentance patience obedience and such like christian dueties and vertues Theo. You say well these bee thinges which Princes haue no right to clayme nor power to rule They belong onely to God To these I adde the meanes whereby God worketh these thinges in his church to witte the woord and Sacraments ouer these thinges wee graunt Princes haue no power Phi. S. Ambrose sayth not ouer the Church Theo. That is not ouer the thinges which God hath setled in his church but ouer the Persons Princes haue power Phi. What a shift of descant that is Theo. Call you that a shift which I before confirmed and you confessed to bee true Phi. What did you confirme Theo. That Princes haue power by Gods appointment ouer al men I brought you Tertullian Chrysostome Iustinian Gregorie and Ambrose himself witnessing that Princes had power ouer al men S. Paul auoucheth the same Let euery soule be subiect to their power It is no shift it is trueth that our sauiour saith kings of nations beare rule ouer them that is ouer their subiects You must either take the names of Princes and Gouernours from them or els yeeld them Countries and people to be subiect vnder them Phi. I doe so Theo. Then Princes haue power ouer all men that is ouer all Persons Phi. Ouer all persons but not ouer the Church Theo. What doe you nowe but make the same distinction your selfe which before you refused at my handes Ouer all persons they haue power ouer the Church they haue not ergo the Church is not here taken for persons And it must needes be taken either for the persons or things for the persons it is not ergo for the thinges and so by your confession mine answere standeth good that Princes haue power ouer the persons but not ouer the things in the Church And so saith S. Ambrose Ea quae diuina imperatoriae potestati non esse subiecta The thinges that be Gods be not subiect to the Emperours power though the Emperour had power ouer all Persons as Ambrose himselfe affirmeth Phi. Shall S. Ambrose strike the stroke in this case Theo. The stroke is alreadie giuen by the sacred scriptures by the publike Lawes and auncient stories of the primatiue Church and yet in this point wee reiect not the iudgement of S. Ambrose Phi. S. Ambrose is cleane against your opinion that Princes should bee gouernours in causes ecclesiastical To the yonger Valentinian the Emperour thus he answereth Vexe not thy selfe so farre O Emperour to thinke that thy Emperiall right perteyneth to diuine thinges exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure For it is written Giue to Cesar that which is Cesars and to God that which belongeth vnto God The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest Againe the same holy Doctor When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishoppes Shall wee bend by flatterie so farre that forgetting the right of our Priesthood we shoulde yeelde vp to others that which God hath commended vnto vs And recounting the whole course of holy scriptures and all times past who can deny but that in the cause of faith in the cause of faith I say Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishoppes Theo. Omit the circumstances and causes that moued Ambrose thus to write which bee the wordes you take most hold of Phi. These Thy Emperiall right pertayneth not to diuine thinges The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest In a cause of faith Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishops Theo. You helpe the matter forward with false translating and nypping the wordes and yet they proue nothing against vs. In steede of vt putes te in ea quae diuina sunt imperiale aliquod ius habere Do not think thy selfe to haue an Emperiall right ouer those things which bee Gods or ouer diuine thinges you say cunningly Do not thinke thy Emperiall right pertayneth to diuine thinges
thou make of the Church Onely dogges returne to their vomit and thou compellest the Priestes of Christ to sup vp those thinges which they had spitte foorth and doest thou commaund them in their confessions to allow that which before they condemned What Bishops hand hast thou left innocent whose tongue hast thou not forced to falsehood whose heart hast thou not brought to the condemning of his former opinion Substrauisti voluntati tuae sed violentiae Thou hast subiected all to thy will nay to thy violence His violent oppressing of Bishops in their Synodes wresting from them what he would is witnessed by theÌ„ both Synodos contrahis conclusos vrbe vna minis terres fame debilitas hyeme conâ—icis dissimulatione deprauas Thou gatherest Synods saith Hilarie to him when they be closed in one citie thou terrifiest them with threates thou pynest them with hunger thou lamest them with cold thou deprauest them with dissembling He pretendeth saith Athanasius a iudgement or Synode of Bishops for a shewe but in the meane tyme hee doeth whatsoeuer hee list himselfe What libertie of perswasion what place for aduise is there when hee that contradicteth shall for his labour loose his life or his Countrie By that meanes hath the Emperour gathered so great a number of Bishoppes partly terrified with threates partly enticed with promises to graunt they woulde no longer communicate with Athanasius The order of such tyrannicall Synodes the Bishoppes of Aegypt Libia Pentapolis and Thebais doe liuely report in defence of Athanasius whereby wee shall see howe farre they bee from the moderation and regiment of Godly Princes With what face dare they call this conuent a Synode where the Lieutenant was president where the tormentour stoode ready where the Iaylour in steede of the Deacons of the Church brought in those that were called for where the Lieutenant spake the rest that were present kept silence or rather yeelded their seruice to him where that which the Bishoppes by common consent liked was reiected by the Lieutenant Hee sate and commaunded wee were led by souldiers yea the Lieutenant him selfe did whatsoeuer the Eusebians our aduersaries bid him To bee short what shewe of a Synode was there where death or banishment if Cesar sayd the word was decreed This violence Liberius toucheth in his answere to Constantius messenger If the Emperour seeke in deede to interpose his care for the peace of the Church or if he commaund those thinges which wee haue decreed for Athanasius to be reuersed let those things also that are decreed against him be reuersed and after let an ecclesiasticall Synod be called farre from the Palace where the Emperour is not preseÌ„t nor the Lieutenant intermedleth nor the iudge threatneth as Constantius doth in his Synodes but only the feare of God and institution of the Apostles suffice for all things And this dissimulation the Bishops were brought to by the Emperours meanes as your own author confesseth that Constantines sitting presideÌ„t among the Bishops and prescribing rules for their churches the most part of theÌ„ receiued with applause admiratioÌ„ whatsoeuer he said affirming it to be diuinely spokeÌ„ What maruaile then if Athanasius reproued Constantius for sitting among the bishops in their Synods as president of their iudgements ringleader or ruler of the bishops in their determinations when as hee oppressed the freedome of their voyces with terror corrupted the secrets of their harts with promises hindered the vprightnes of their proceedings with his presence Or if Leontius brake out into these words I woonder that hauing charge of other things thou enterest into these matters and that being gouernour of the campe and common welth thou prescribest those things to Bishops which pertaine only to Bishops Touching accusations of Bishops his tyrannie was greater He made his Palace the Consistorie for such causes and himselfe iudge of them where if any Arrian accused an other Bishop were the complaint neuer so false the proofe neuer so slender the man neuer so giltlesse the partie accused should not cleare himselfe no not so much as speake for himself but was sure though he were absent and innocent to die the death or suffer banishment Phi. You imagine this of your own head to make Constantius seeme a very tyrant Theo. The words which you brought do fully proue so much but that you cut them off from the rest to make them sound for your purpose Put the wordes that follow to theÌ„ and see whether they do not import that which I saide Now againe in steed of Ecclesiasticall cognition that is the triall of Bishops by their Synodes when they are accused he hath appointed his palace the iudgement seate of those causes and himselfe the chiefe iudge and arbitrer of those contentions or accusations and that which you would wonder at if at anie time hee perceiue the accusers to stagger or faile in their proofes hee himselfe plaieth the accuser so as the partie conuented is suffered to replie nothing by reason of his violence Which he plainly shewed in Athanasius cause For in that matter hearing the free speach of Paulinus Lucifer Eusebius and Dionysius all foure Bishops prouing by the recantation of Vrsacius and Valens that the crimes obiected to Athanasius were false and the sayings of Vrsacius and Valens which they themselues had reuoked ought not to be credited Constantius straightway rising vp said I am Athanasius accuser on my word beleeue those thinges that are obiected to him Here the Bishops answering againe howe can you accuse Athanasius in his absence Graunt you would accuse him the absence of the partie accused is a let that you can not proceed to iudgement The iudgement is not of any common-wealth matter that you should bee beleeued as Emperour but a Bishop is accused and in this case he that wil accuse and hee that is accused must be delt withall in like condition How can you accuse him that could not be present for the distance of place If you haue those thinges which you obiect by hearesay reason is you also beleeue that which Athanasius shall bring in defence of himselfe For if you beleeue these his accusers and beleeue not him it may be thought they say these thinges and accuse Athanasius to content and please you This when the Emperour heard expounding their honest allegations for his reproches he banished them and waxing the sharper against Athanasius gaue foorth a terrible edict that he should be punished and his churches deliuered to the Arrians and his aduersaries haue leaue to do what they would Hereby the Arians waxed so confident that they spared no man Whom haue they not touched saith Athanasius with their false accusations Whom haue they not intrapped Whom hath not Constantius banished that was accused by them When did he not giue them both audience and allowance Whom euer did he admit to saie any thing against them Or what did he
all the wordes of the lawe keeping and obseruing are not there referred to his priuate actions as a man but to his publike function as a king and therefore the king in these wordes receiued the charge and ouersight of the whole lawe that is an expresse commaundement from God to see the lawe kept and euerie part thereof obserued of all men within his Dominions and the breakers of it Prophetes Priestes and People to bee duely punished Nowe the Lawe contained all thinges that any way touched the true seruice and worshippe of God ergo the king had one and the selfe-same power and charge to commaund and punish as well for the preceptes of pietie as other pointes of policie neither did God fauour or prosper any of the kinges of Israell or Iudah but such as chiefly respected and carefully maintained the ordinances of Religion prescribed vnto them in Moses lawe In the times of the Prophetes saith S. Augustine all the kinges which in the people of God did not forbid and ouerthrow those thinges which were brought in against the commandementes of God are blamed and they that did prohibite and subuert such thinges are praysed aboue the rest God blessed Salomon with wisedome honour riches and peace so long as hee walked in the steppes of Dauid his father during the which time Salomon did dedicate the Temple in his owne person and cast out Abiathar from being Priest vnto the Lord and set Zadocke in his roome but when his heart once turned from God to builde places also for Idols and to suffer his outlandish wiues to burne incense and offeringes to their Gods then the Lorde was angrie with Salomon and stirred vppe aduersaries against him and threatned to rent his kingdom from him and to giue it to his seruant Asa tooke awaie the Altars of the strange Gods and the high places and brake downe the images and cut downe the groues and commaunded Iudah to seeke the Lord God of their fathers and tooke awaie out of all the cities of Iudah the high places and images therefore the kingdome was quiet before him And hee tooke an oth of all Iudah and Beniamin that Whosoeuer woulde not seeke the Lorde God of Israell shoulde be slaine whether hee were small or great man or woman and hee deposed Maachah his mother from her regencie because she had made an idoll Asa brake downe her idol and stamped it and burnt it and the Lord gaue him rest round about Iehosaphat his sonne walked in the first waies of Dauid and sought the Lord God of his father and walked in his commaundementes and therefore the Lord established the kingdome in his handes so that hee had riches and honour in aboundance In the thirde yeare of his raigne he sent his Princes that they should teach in the cities of Iudah and with them Leuites and Pristes and him selfe went through the people from Beer-sheba to Mount-Ephraim and brought them againe to the Lord God of their fathers In Ierusalem he sent of the Leuites and of the Priests and of the chiefe of the families of Israell for the iudgement and cause of the Lord. And he charged them saying Thus shal ye do in the feare of the Lord faithfully and with a perfect heart Thus shall ye do and trespasse not And behold Amariah the Priest shall be the chiefe among you for al the matters of the Lord and Zebadiah for all the kinges affaires and the Leuites shall be helpers vnto you Be strong and doe it And when the Moabites and Ammonites came against him he proclaimed a fast throughout all Iudah and stood in the congregation of Iudah and Ierusalem in the house of the Lord prayed in his owne person for all the people Ezechiah did vprightly in the sight of the Lord according to all that Dauid his father had done Hee opened the doores of the house of the Lorde and brought in the Priestes and the Leuites and saide vnto them heare mee yee Leuites sanctifie your selues and sanctifie the house of the Lord God of your fathers I purpose to make a couenant with the Lord God of Israell And they sanctified themselues according to the commaundement of the king And the king rose early and gathered the Princes of the citie and went vppe to the house of the Lord. And they brought sinne-offeringes and Ezechiah commaunded to offer the burnt offering vppon the Altar yea hee commaunded the Priestes the sonnes of Aaron to offer them And when they had made an end of offering Ezechiah the king the Princes commaunded the Leuites to praise the Lord with the wordes of Dauid and Asaph the Seer And Ezechiah sent to all Israell and Iudah also wrote letters to Ephraim and Manasses that they should come to the house of the Lord at Ierusalem to keepe the Passouer So the Postes went with letters by the commission of the king and his Princes throughout all Israel and Iudah and with the commandement of the king saying Yee children of Israell turne againe vnto the Lord God of Abraham Isaac and Israell And the hand of God was in Iudah so that he gaue them one heart to doe the commaundement of the King And Ezechiah appointed the courses of the Priestes and Leuites by their turnes euerie man according to his office for the burnt offeringes and peace offeringes to minister and giue thankes to praise in the gates of the tentes of the Lord. And in all the workes that hee beganne for the seruice of the house of God hee did it with all his heart and prospered Hee tooke away the high places and brake the Images and cutte downe the groues and brake in peeces the brasen Serpent which Moses had made for in those dayes the children of Israell did burne incense to it Manasses at the first wēt back built the high places which Ezechiah his father had broken down and set vp altars for Baalim made groues worshipped all the host of heauen serued them but after hee was taken by the king of Babylon put in fetters bound in chaines he hūbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers God was intreated of him and heard his prayer and brought him againe to Ierusalem into his kingdom Then hee tooke awaie the strange Gods and the image out of the house of the Lord and all the Altars that hee had built in the mount of the Lordes house and in Ierusalem and cast them out of the citie Also he repaired the Altar of the Lord and sacrificed thereon peace-offeringes and of thankes and commaunded Iudah to serue the Lord God of Israell Iosiah in the eight yeare of his raigne when he was yet a childe of sixeteene yeares began to seeke after the God of Dauid his father and in the twelfth yeare he began to purge Iudah Ierusalem from the high places the groues and the carued and
of his truth and clensers of his Church that is with lawfull force to remoue such as impugne the faith and with publik authorit◠to punish those that defile the Church of God with their shamelesse manners be they Priestes or People and this doth not place earthly kingdomes aboue the Church but prepare them as aydes and defences for the Church which is the right end of all earthly States was the first cause why God erected them Though the sheepe may not rule their sheepeheards yet giue them leaue to discerne strangers and flie from theeues and murderers and giue the great and Archpastor that is in heauen leaue to gard his flock not only with watchmen but also with armed men that if the greedinesse and hardinesse of the wolues bee such that they feare not the clamours of Preachers at least they may shrinke for the terrours of Princes And this is no such absurditie as you make it that Princes should serue the true sheepeheard Christ Iesus by turning their swords against those raueners and spoylers which vnder the colour shew of feeding would kill the fattest and gorge themselues with the fairest of Christes flocke Yea Princes in their sort be sheepeheardes as well as Bishops in that they beare the sword vnder God to compell and punish such as the gentle perswasion of the Preacher can not moue and for that cause God said to Dauid Thou shalt feede my people Israell and Dauid maketh this report of himselfe So he fed them according to the simplicitie of his hart and guided them by the discretion of his handes As Princes are bound to heare preachers directing them vnto truth because the wordes of God are in their mouthes and hee that despiseth those thinges despiseth not mā but God so likewise are Preachers bound to obey Princes commanding for truth who so neglecteth that commandement of theirs shall haue no part with God for not doing that which trueth by the kinges hart commanded him And the Princes obedience to be due not to Preachers persons or pleasures but their message deliuered them by God the Lord Ruler of all Princes appeareth by this that Princes may lawfully punish the preachers if they falsifie the word of truth or shame their calling with their disordered liuing That Princes be iudges of Religion we neuer said it nor thought it much lesse that they be iudges of God himselfe this argueth rather your impudencie in reporting than our ignorance in not affirming it Gods name be blessed we know what difference there is and ought to be betweene God and man as well as you but such is the badnesse of your cause and blindnesse of your harts that you must and will rather childishly quarrell and wittingly belie the truth than come to a faire and euen triall S. Cyprian hath some such wordes but no such meaning as you alleage He saith when a Bishop is orderly chosen in any Church he that After the diuine allowance or iudgement after the suffrages of the people after the consent and liking of other Bishops erecteth a second in the same Church against him maketh himselfe now the Controler and Iudge not of the Bishop but of God which wee beleeue to be verie true but how doth this proue that Christiā magistrates may not displace wicked and vnworthy Bishops for their iustes desertes which is our question And as Cyprian in his sense is not againste vs so Cyprian in our case is cleare against you For when as yet there were no Princes Christened that with publike authoritie might remoue vngodly Bishoppes Cyprian assureth vs that the people might lawfully seuer them-selues from a wicked Bishoppe and elect an other His words bee these Therefore the flocke or people obeying the Lordes preceptes and fearing God ought to separate themselues from a sinfull Bishop and not to participate with the sacrifices of a sacrilegious Priest whereas they chiefly haue power to chose worthy Bishops and to reiect vnworthie perswading and incouraging the people to goe forwarde in that their attempt notwithstanding the Bishop of Rome tooke stitch with the partie deposed and wrote letters for his restitution of the which Cyprian maketh no great account as you may see by his words that follow Neither is the Bishop of Rome so much to be blamed that was deceiued through negligence as this man to be detested that fraudulently deceiued him And though Basilides coulde circumuent men yet can he not beguile God Phi. It maketh her free from Ecclesiasticall discipline from which no true childe of Gods familie is exempted Theo. It maketh her free from the Popes Buls and decretals but not from the Lawes and Precepts of Christ which is the true discipline of Gods children Touching the regiment of their owne persons and liues Princes owe the verie same reuerence and obedience to the word and Sacraments that euerie priuate man doth and if any Prince would be baptised or approach to the Lords table with manifest shew of vnbeliefe or irrepentance the minister is bound freely to speake and rather to lay downe his life at the Princes feete than to let the king of Kings be prouoked the mysteries defiled his owne soule and the Princes indangered for lacke of often and earnest admonition Phi. I am glad you graunt that Princes may be excommunicated for that proueth Priestes to be their superiours and ouerthroweth quite their supremacie Theo. You reason very profoundly The seruants of God may not receiue any mortall man to the diuine mysteries except he bring with him a right faith in God an inwarde sorrowe for his former sinnes ergo the Pope may depose Princes set their subiectes in open fielde against them to thrust them from their thrones Phi. We reason not so but we say Priestes may excommunicate Princes ergo they be superiours to Princes Theo. I speake of not admitting Princes to the Sacramentes but with those conditions that God requireth of all Christian men without respect of States or persons and you by and by leape to excommunication which word you egerly sease on not for any meaning you haue to guide Princes right lest they prouoke the wrath of God to their euerlasting destruction by the contempt of his graces but for a cunning to defeate them of their crownes by your indirect and vngodly deuises For first you wil excōmunicate them that is you wil haue no cōmunion with them in anie thing spiritual or tēporal next you descend from not cōmunicating with thē to not obeying them lastly from not obeying to open rebelling against them placing others in their steedes And thus when Princes displease you you neuer leaue them till with this wreath of excommunication you wring their Scepters out of their handes But if you looke better about you you shall finde great difference between not deliuering them the sacred mysteries of God except they repent and beleeue the Gospell and your diuelish conspiracie to deny
his brethren vnprofitable slacke in his office silent in that which is good hurtfull to himselfe all others yea though hee leade with him innumerable soules by heapes to the diuell of hell yet let no mortal man presume to find fault with him or reproue him for his doings This is the subiection which your holy father wold haue which you count vs absurd for not acknowledging But may we not iustly say to you as S. August saide to the Donatistes This which you affirme that al the worlde must bee subiect to one man as to Christs Uicar Did God or man tell it you If God read it vnto vs out of the law the Prophets the Psalms the Apostolical or Euangelicall writings Read it if you can which hitherto you ueuer coulde But if men haue saide it or rather no men but your selues beholde the deuise of men beholde what you worship behold what you serue behold wherefore you rebel you rage you waxe madde Phi. If you will not bee subiect to the Pope as Christes Uicar and head of the Church which no doubt he is yet haue you no colour to withstande his authoritie as hee is and euer was Patriarke of the West Theo. His vicarshippe to Christ and headshippe ouer the Church bee thinges that you speake much of but shewe small proofe for It were good you woulde either prooue them or not presume them as you doe they bee matters of greater weight than that you may carie them away with your faire lookes Patriarke of the West wee graunt he was which is a foule fall from head of the Church and Uicar generall to Christ himselfe and yet this way you come too short of your reckoning For first the tytle and authoritie of Archbishoppes and Patriarkes was not ordayned by the commaundement of Christ or his Apostles but the Bishops long after when the Church began to bee troubled with dissentions were content to lincke themselues together and in euery Prouince to suffer one whome they preferred for the worthines of his Citie and called their Metropolitane that is Bishoppe of the chiefe or mother Citie to haue this prerogatiue in all doubts of Doctrine and discipline to assemble the rest of his brethren or consult them absent by letters and see that obserued which the most part of them determined Before there beganne schismes in religion the Churches sayth S. Hierom were gouerned by the common Councell of the Seniors And therfore Episcopi nouerint se magis consuetudine quam dominicae dispositionis veritate Presbyteris esse maiores Let the Bishoppes vnderstand that they bee greater than ministers or elders rather by Custome than by any trueth of the Lordes appointment and that they ought to gouerne the Church in common And in his Epistle to Euagrius hauing fully prooued by the Scriptures that the Apostles called themselues but Presbyteros Elders or Seniors he addeth Quod autē postea vnus electus est qui ceteris praeponereter in schismatis remedium factum est ne vnusquisque ad se trahens Christiecclesiā rumperet That after their times one was chosen in euery Church and preferred before the rest to haue the dignitie of a Bishoppe this was prouided for a remedie against schismes lest euery man drawing some vnto him shoulde rent the Church of Christ in pieces For what doth a Bishop except ordering of others which an Elder may not doe And lest you should thinke he speaketh not as well of the chiefe as of the meaner Bishoppes hee compareth three of the greatest Patriarkes with three of the poorest Bishops he could name Vbicunque fuerit Episcopus siue Romae siue Eugubij siue Constantinopoli siue Rhegij siue Alexandriae siue Tains eiusdem meriti eiusdem est Sacerdotij Potentia diuitiarum paupertatis humilitas vel sublimiorem vel inferiorem Episcopum non facit ceterum omnes Apostolorum successores sunt A Bishop of what place soeuer hee be either of Rome or of Eugubium or of Constantinople or of Rhegium or of Alexandria or of Tains hath the same merite and the same function or Priesthood Abundance of riches or basenes of pouertie doeth not make a Bishoppe higher or lower for they all be successours to the Apostles So that the Bishoppe of Rome by commission from Christ and succession from the Apostles is no higher than the meanest Bishop in the worlde The superioritie which he and others had as Metropolitanes in their owne Prouinces came by custome as the great Councell of Nice witnesseth not by Christes institution Let the olde vse continue in Aegypt Lybia and Pentapolis that the Bishoppe of Alexandria bee chiefe ouer all those places for so much as the Bishoppe of Rome hath the like custome Likewise at Antioch and in other Prouinces let the Churches keepe their prerogatiues The generall Councell of Ephesus confesseth the same It seemeth good to this sacred and oecumenicall Synode to conserue to euery prouince their right priuileges whole and vntouched which they haue had of olde according to the custome that now long hath preuayled Next their authoritie was subiect not only to the discretion and moderation of their brethren assembled in Councell but also to the lawes Edicts of Christian Princes to be graunted extended limited and ordered as they saw cause For example the first Councell of Constantinople aduaunced the Bishoppe of that Citie to bee the next Patriarke to the Bishoppe of Rome which before he was not And the Councel of Chalcedon made him equall in ecclesiasticall honours with the Bishoppe of Rome and assigned him a larger Prouince than before he had So Iustinian gaue to the Citie in Africa that he called after his owne name the See of an Archbishoppe Archiepiscopale munus quod Episcopo Iustinianeae Carthaginis Africanae Dioeceseos dedimus conseruari iubemus Sed aliae ciuitates atque horum Episcopi quibus passim in diuersis locis ius Metropoliticum concessum est in perpetuum hoc priuilegio perfruuntor The Archiepiscopal dignitie which wee gaue to the Bishoppe of Iustinianea within the Prouince of Africa we commaund to continue still And likewise let other Cities and their Bishops to whom in diuers places and Countries the right of Metropolitanes hath beene graunted enioy that priuilege for euer The same Prince as you heard before commanded the Archbishops and Patriarkes of Rome Constantinople Alexandria Theopolis and Ierusalem and generally subiecteth them in ecclesiasticall causes and iudgements to the sacred Canons and his Imperiall Lawes as appeareth expressely in his publike Edicts made to that end Thirdly by the right and auncient diuision of prouinces this Realme was not vnder the Bishoppe of Rome For when the Bishoppes of Africa praied Innocentius either to send for Pelagius the Britan or to deale with him by letters to shewe the meaning of his lewde speaches tending to the derogation of Gods grace the Bishoppe of Rome made
and therefore the power which Princes haue is not spirituall Theo. Wee neuer sayde that Princes had any spirituall power it is a false collection of yours it is no part of our confession and the sworde which they beare wee neuer called but externall and temporall For the true spiritual and eternall sworde is the woorde of God The sworde of the spirite sayth S. Paul which is the word of God and S. Iohn describing the sonne of God sayth Out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword The word of GOD as S. Paul writeth is more percing than any two edged sword and entereth through euen to the parting in sunder of the soul and spirit And as for both these causes it is spirituall so it indureth for euer and is eternall The magistrats sword compared with this is but corporall and temporall Corporall in respect it toucheth the body but not the soule Our sauiour for warning his Disciples that they should be brought before Gouernours and Kings for his sake addeth to encourage theÌ„ Feare not those which kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Temporal it is in respect either of Gods ordinance which lasteth no longer than the time of this worlde or of mans vengeance which ceaseth by death and rageth no farther or if you will for that it ordereth the things of this life and praiseth or punisheth the senssible and external actions of the body which be temporall The things which bee seene are temporal saith S. Paul but the things which are not seene are eternal Phi. You take temporal for that which dureth for a season and is not eternall and we take temporal as it is opposite to spirituall And in that sense because the sword hath to doe with temporal men and matters only we call it the temporall sworde and haue good reason to defend that temporall Princes should not meddle with spirituall Persons or causes Theo. The distinction of spirituall and temporal Persons things and causes as you limite them sprang first from your selues without all authoritie or rather in deed against the authoritie of the holy scriptures and was nothing els but a mere deuise of yours to encrease your Courts and to wind the sword by litle and litle out of other mens fingers hang it at your owne girdles For when you saw that the things which be truly spiritual as faith hope charitie with other vertues and fruites of the spirit belonged only to GOD and not to man and therefore by the resolution of our Sauiour must bee giuen to God and not to Cesar first you would needs be termed spirituall men taking the name which is common to all the sonnes of GOD as proper to your selues and your seruants and by that colour exempt not onely Priests but also doore keepers torche bearers bell ringers Church sweepers and all your retinue from subiection to temporall magistrates But S. Paul calleth them spirituall men which haue the spirit of GOD as all his children haue and the rest carnal or natural men I could not speak to you brethren as vnto spiritual men but as vnto carnal euen as vnto babes in Christ. For where as there is yet among you enuieng strife dissention are you not carnal And againe The naturall man sauoureth not the thinges of the spirit of God but the spiritual man discerneth al things And so BrethreÌ„ if a maÌ„ be fallen into any fault you that be spiritual restore such a one with the spirit of meeknesse As also S. Iude These be fleshly men hauing no spirit And likewise Saint Peter Bee you made as liuely stones a spirituall house What wrong then you doe the faythfull when you name them temporall as if the hope of their calling reached no farther than this life let the wise and Godly iudge That reproche of temporall and pride of spirituall men no learned nor auncient father euer vsed Secular S. Hierom calleth them Laymen Clerkes that were not Monkes Temporall no man euer called the people of God besides your selues Next that your landes and liuings might speede no worse than your selues for gaine was the mother of your earely and dayly deuotion you tooke order to haue them goe for spirituall thinges also notwithstanding Saint Paul expressely called them carnal If wee haue sowen vnto you spirituall things is it a great matter if wee reape your carnall thinges And speaking of the poore Saintes at Ierusalem If the Gentiles bee made partakers of their spirituall thinges their duetie is also to minister vnto them in carnal things And where the Lorde himselfe willed the Scribes and high Priestes to giue vnto Caesar the thinges that were Caesars and vnto God the things that were Gods you as if that graunt had beene too liberall thought it expedient vppon some wiser consideration belike to set the image and superscription of God and his Church vpon your corruptible and earthly Mammon and by that cunning to keepe it from Caesar. Farre better S. Ambrose If the Emperour aske for tribute we deny it not The lands of the Church pay tribute If he affect the lands themselues he hath power to take them no man amoÌ„gst vs is any let vnto him The almes of the people is enough for the poore Let them neuer procure vs enuie for our Landes let them take them if they please I doe not giue them to the Emperour but I doe not denie them Thirdly to enlarge your kingdome and stretch your winges ouer all men and matters as farre as you needed or listed you tooke the punishment of incest adulterie fornication drunkennes vsurie periurie simonie sorcerie blasphemie witchcraft Apostacie and such like grosse and fleshly vices out of the Magistrates handes vnder the colour of spirituall thinges and fastened them to your consistories And not therewith content you caught holde of tithes testaments legacies intestates patronages mariages diuorces dowries espousals funerals affinitie consanguinitie bastardie bondage as of spirituall causes and questions and if the matter concerned the goods and Landes of Churches or Church men you made no bones to venter on giftes sales exchaunges possession alienation restitution conuentions conditions exactions sureties pledges payments dammages iniuries forgeries hyring lending farming and a thousand such as if all actions causes and contracts that any way touched your gayne or ease must by and by goe for spirituall and the magistrate by that poore shift bee secluded from ordering and entermedling with those things which were wont to bee wholy guided by the Princes Lawes Phi. Mislike you that Priestes shoulde punish sinne or that Bishoppes should deale in those cases which bee incident to the Lawes of GOD and Canons of the Church Theo. I doe not mislike that malefactours of all kindes not onely drunkards raylers periurers adulterers vsurers and such like but also theeues robbers rauishers murderers plagiaries incendiaries trâ—ytours and all other haynous offendours when their liues bee
all Princes one that shall commaund them and depose them at his pleasure what else is this but a resisting of the powers which God hath ordained â—recting and 〈◊〉 in the Church of Christ without authoritie that vnder the couert of binding and feeding shall make him-selfe Lorde of all kingdomes and countries Phi. Supreme is the worde that wee most impugne Theo. And Supreme is the worde which you shall neuer ouerthrow being a plaine and manifest deduction out of the wordes of S. Paul Let euerie soule saith hee bee subiect to the superiour Powers If all men must be subiect to them ergo they be superiour to all and superiour to all is supreme Consult both your Seminaries and refell this one sequele if you can marie cauill not as your Apologie doeth that Supreme bringeth Christ and his Sainctes in subiection to Princes The Apostle speaketh of mortall men and so doe wee And in comparison with them if Sainct Pauls words be true that euery soule must be subiect to Princes as vnto Superiours our consequent is irrefutable that Princes be supreme Phi. S. Paul maketh them superiours ouer all persons but not ouer all thinges Theo. That distinction is ours not yours we did euer interprete supreme for superiour to all men within their dominions Phi. And so wee graunt them to bee but not in all thinges For in temporall thinges they be superiours to all men in spirituall they bee not Theo. That restraint commeth too late The holy Ghost charging you to be subiect to them simply without addition it passeth your reach to limit in what thinges you will and in what thinges you will not be subiect Againe wee haue inuinciblie proued and you haue clearely confessed that Princes may commaunde for trueth and that they beare the sworde for the perfect obseruation and execution of Gods lawe and publike defence of the faith and Cannons of the Church which bee thinges not temporall but spirituall and out of all question where they may by Gods law command all men must obey them not onely for feare of wrath but also for conscience sake Lastly what better proofe can you wish that in all thinges they bee superiours to all men than that their sworde may not bee resisted for any temporall or spirituall cause but must bee rather indured with meekenes reuerence though they persecute truth shew themselues enemies to God and his church For so the Lord in his owne person taught vs his Apostles after him in their writings sufferings followed the same course Phi. Had Heathen tyrantes lawfull power ouer Christ and his Apostles in spirituall thinges Theo. Lawfull power of the sworde to rewarde and punish they had ouer Christ and his Apostles in thinges and causes spiritual The Lord of grace and life being deliuered by the Priests to the Magistrate for blasphemie which is a spirituall crime refused not the iudge but submitting him-selfe to the Princes Deputie confessed Pilates power ouer him to bee from heauen notwithstanding Pilates sentence against him was wrongfull and wicked S. Paul imprisoned for preaching the Gospel required to be sent to Caesar and to make answere before Caesar concerning his doctrine and doings S. Peter patiently endured Neroes sword euen vnto death for teaching the trueth and warned all Christians to doe the like Let none of you suffer publike punishment as a murderer or as a theefe or a malefactour or as a medler with other mens matters but if any man suffer as a Christian that is for religion let him not be ashamed but glorifie God in this respect They that resist especially wheÌ„ they be punished for religioÌ„ shal receiue to themselues iudgement and damnation for God is then most dishonoured when wee make religion a buckler for rebellion If none must resist that suffer as christians ergo by Gods ordinance al men be subiect to the Princes sword euen in spirituall causes as well as in temporall Phi. To suffer but not to obey Theo. Suffering is as sure a signe of subiection as obeying And yet whom you must indure commaunding that which is euill in matters of religion those you must obey when they commaunde that which is good in the selfe same causes which you heard concluded out of S. Augustine before Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Emperors which are made for the truth of God incurreth a grieuous iudgement And againe When Emperours hold truth they commaund for truth which whosoeuer despiseth purchaseth to himselfe iudgement So that all men are bound to be subiect to the sword in all thinges be they temporall or spirituall not only by suffering but also by obeying mary with this caution that in thinges which bee good and agreeable to the law of God the sword must be obeyed in things that be otherwise it must be indured This then is the supreme power of Princes which we soberly teach and you so bitterly detest that they be Gods ministers in their owne dominions bearing the sword freely to permit and publikely to defend that which God commaundeth in faith and good manners and in ecclesiasticall discipline to receiue and establish such rules and orders as the Scriptures and Canons shal decide to be needfull and healthfull for the Church of God in their kingdomes And as they may lawfully commaund that which is good in all thinges and causes bee they temporall spirituall or ecclesiasticall so may they with iust force remoue whatsoeuer is erronious vitious or superstitious within their Landes and with externall losses and corporall paines represse the brochers and abetters of heresies and all impieties from which subiection vnto Princes no man within their Realmes Monke Priest Preacher nor Prelate is exempted and without their Realmes no mortall man hath any power from Christ iudicially to depose them much lesse to inuade them in open field least of al to warraÌ„t their subiectes to rebell against them These be the things which we contend for not whether Princes be Christs masters or the functions to preach baptise impose hands forgiue sinnes must be deriued from the Princes power and lawes or the Apostles might enter to conuert countries without Caesars delagations those bee iestes and shiftes of yours no braunches nor sequeles of our opinion You see the partes proofes of our doctrine neither draw back nor dally but go to the matter and say what fault you finde with our assertion Phi. The former branches of your assertion might be receiued if it were agreed by whom the sword should be directed We our selues confesse that the Princes sworde should permit defend and execute that which is good in all spirituall and ecclesiasticall thinges causes and iudgementes and repell and punish the contrarie But least Princes shoulde wade too farre or tread awry we would haue their swords guided and if need be restrained by such as haue greater experience and better intelligence in those affaires For ecclesiasticall rules and
hereticall Emperour assaied to ouerthrowe multis paucorum fraude deceptis the multitude there being deceiued by the subtiltie of a fewe And therefore hee concludeth Sed nunc ne◠ego Nicenum nec tu debes Ariminense tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre Concilium nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris But nowe since there be contrarie Councels neither ought I to produce the Councell of Nice nor you the Councel of Ariminum for a preiudice to either part for neither am I bound to the authoritie of this later Councell of Ariminum nor you to the authoritie of that former Nicene Councell Confessing not only that councels might erre but that his aduersarie was not tied to the authoritie of the great Nicene councell comparable to the which no Councell euer was or shall bee in the Church of Christ. Phi. There was great difference betweene the Councell of Ariminum and the Councell of Nice Theo. In the syncere profession of the true fayth there was difference betwixt them but in the manner of calling those Councels and number of the persons present Saint Augustine founde no great aduantage for his side The Arrians had a councell as great and as general for that which they refused as the Catholiques had for that which they professed and therefore this learned father sawe no remedie but hee must yeelde vppe the Nicene Councell as no sufficient conuiction of their heresie Phi. The councell of Ariminum was not generall Theo. The councell was farre greater as it should seeme than the councell of Nice though the Storie of the church doe not lay downe the certaine number of the Bishoppes that mette Phi. What reason leadeth you to thinke it was greater Theo. It is euident by the Storie that the Emperour assembled all the Bishoppes both of the East and of the West church of purpose if it were possible to bring them to some concord and the Bishoppes of either church no doubt farre exceeded the number of three hundred Phi. They were not all at Ariminum Theo. The number was so great and the iourney so long that the Emperour made them sit in two seuerall places the East Bishoppes at Nicomedia the West at Ariminum but that all the Bishoppes of both Churches were gathered in these two places Socrates doeth witnesse Imperator vniuersale Concilium congregare voluit vt cunctos Orientis Episcopos in Occidentem accersitos concordes si posset redderet The Emperour intended to gather an vniuersall Councell that all the Bishoppes of the East comming into the West parts he might get thē to agree if it might be And when the length of the iourney appeared ouer tedious he cōmanded the councel to be diuided willed the west to assemble at Ariminum the East to resort at Nicomedia What a companie there were of the west bishops their own words to Constantius will declare Ariminū ex cunctis Occidentis Ciuitatibus omnes Episcopi conuenimus We assembled at Ariminum euen all the Bishops out of all the west Cities S. Hierom writing of this very Councell saith Illo tempore nihil tam pium nihil tam conueniens seruo Dei videbatur quam vnitatem sequi a totius mundi communione non scindi At that time nothing seemed so religious nothing so conuenient for the seruant of God as to follow vnitie and not to cut himselfe from the Communion of the whole world The communion of the whole world was in the Councell of Ariminum no Councell therefore could be more generall than that was And this no doubt Saint Augustine sawe when hee gaue ouer the Councell of Nice as no greater preiudice to his aduersaries than the Councel of Ariminum was to himselfe and the fayth which he defended Phi. The Councell of Ariminum condemned the error of Arius as their Epistle to Constantius declareth Theo. The Bishoppes assembled at Ariminum were religious and Catholike but not sounding the drift of some craftie heretikes amongest them and ledde with a coulour of concord and peace which the Emperour vrged they relented from the Nicene creede vppon pretence made that the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was new and offensiue and consented the worde should bee abolished and subscribed to an other Creede that professed the sonne of GOD to bee like to his father according to the Scriptures Phi. Wherein then did that Councell erre Theo. Not in decreeing any falsehood but in exacting lesse to bee beleeued than the Christian faith required and reiecting that worde which the Nicene Councell had established for the righter expressing of the christian faith In this Councell saith Saint Hierom Nomine vnitatis fidei infidelitas scripta est In the name of vnitie and faith infidelity was decreed and written and vppon the conclusion of the Councell Ingemuit totus orbis Arrianum se esse miratus est The whole worlde groned and wondered to see it selfe in Arrianisme Phi. The fathers made more accompt of Councels than you doe Theo. No father euer saide that Councels could not erre Phi. S. Augustine saith their authoritie is most wholesome in the Church Theo. But hee neuer said they were free from all error That is the perfection and reuerence which S. Augustine reserueth to the Scriptures only to be without all suspition of error Solis eis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur didici hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum authorem scribendo aliquid errasse firmissime credam I haue learned to yeeld this feare and honor to the Canonical Scriptures only that I firmely beleeue none of the Authors of them to haue any thing erred in penning them If this honor to be free from error be due to the Canonical Scriptures only then may you not impart it either to succession Councels or Sees Apostolike It must stand for a perpetuall difference betweene the preceptes of God and decrees of men that God is true and all men lyars If ought sayth Austen bee prooued by the manifest authoritie of the diuine Scriptures which in the Church are called Canonicall it must bee beleeued without any doubting Other witnesses or testimonies thou mayst beleeue or not beleeue according as thou shalt see cause to trust thē And distinguishing the Canon of the Scriptures from the writings and resolutions of all that followed were they fathers Councels or whatsoeuer hee sayth In that Canonicall preeminence of the sacred Scriptures if it appeare that but one Prophet Apostle or Euangelist set downe any thing in his writings it is not lawfull to doubt of the trueth of it In the works of those that came after them comprised in bookes that bee infinite in which soeuer of them the same truth is sound yet the authoritie is farre inferior Therfore in thē if happily some things be thought to dissent from truth because they be not vnderstood as they were spoken tamen liberum ibi habet lector
which is good and religious to your priuate conceit which sauoreth altogither of mere vanitie and open flattery Phi. What S. Hierom meant God doth know you do not Theo. No more do you but yâ— hee meant not this which you would father on him we haue his owne witnes which you must beleeue vnlesse you can shewe better Thus hee complaineth of the Romanes both Pristes people in the epitaph of Marcella Haeretica in hijs Prouincijs exorta tempestas nauemplenam blasphemiarum Romano intulit portuâ— c. Romanae fidei purissimum fontem caeno lutosa permiscuere vestigia Tunc sancta Marcella postquam sensit fidem Apostolico ore laudatam in plerisque violari ita vt sacerdotes quoque ac nonnullos Monachorum maximeque seculi homines in assensum sui traheret ac simplicitati illuderet episcopi publice restitit An hereticall tempest rising in these Countries of the East caried full saile into the hauen of Rome c. vncleane feete did trouble with mud the most pure fountaine of the Romane faith Then holy Marcella when shee sawe the faith praised by the Apostles mouth violated in most thinges so that this heresie drew the Priestes and some Monkes and specially laimen into the consent of it selfe and deluded the simplicitie of the Bishop of Rome shee began to resist openly Note Sir that come to passe in Hieroms age and knowledge which you would proue by Hieroms words to be in all ages impossible The fountaine of the Romane faith defiled with mud the faith praised by the Apostles violated in most things the Priests the people drawen into the same consent the seely Bishop of Rome abused by them and the first that openly resisted a poore widow Go then and blaze to the world as you haue done in your magistrall annotations or rather deprauations of the new Testament which as you haue dressed it with your deuises and glozes is now nothing lesse than the Testament of Christ proclaime I say that infidelity can not come to the Romanes nor their faith be possibly changed that vpon the credits of Cyprian Hierom when they themselues did see and say the contrary Phi. We take no such care for the people of Rome whether they may straie from the faith or no Peters successour is he that our eyes are and ought to bee rather bent on and touching his holines we be resolued that he can not erre in faith Theo. His holinesse hath very good lucke then and better than all his neighbours besides but how shall wee knowe that hee can not erre Your worde is too weake to be taken for a matter of such weight fathers you bring none Scriptures you haue none which way will you make it appeare that his holinesse can not be stained with error Phi. No maruell that our Master would haue his vicars Consistorie and seate infallible seeing euen in the olde law the high Priesthood and chaire of Moses wanted not great priuilege in this case though nothing like the churches and Peters prerogatiue Theo. But we maruell where you finde that Christ would haue any vicar or that his vicars Seat is infallible or that the Bishop is that vicar which you speake of and we most maruell that you auouch al this vpon your single report without script or scrole to confirme the same The chaire of Moses had no such priuilege as you chalenge The people were to learne the law of God at the Priestes handes and hee that presumptuouslie despised the Priest or Magistrate giuing iudgement according to the tenour of Gods law died the death But this doth not proue that either the Priest or the Magistrate coulde not erre or that the Prophetes did not iustly reproue the Priestes when they sate to iudge according to the lawe for their manifest contempts breaches of the Law God by the mouth oâ— Malachy both describeth what the Priestes should do declareth what the Priests had done The Priestes lippes should preserue knowledge and they shoulde seeke the law at his mouth for he is the messenger of the Lord of hostes But yee are gone out of the way O ye Priests ye haue caused many to fall by the lawe ye haue broken the couenant of Leui saith the Lord of hostes This proude priuilege which you mention was claimed by the wicked Priestes in Ieremies time Come say they let vs imagine some deuise against Ieremie for the law shall not perish from the Priest nor counsell from the wise nor the word from the Prophet But God assureth them by his Prophet for this their arrogant presumption that the law should perish from the Priest and counsell from the auncient What grosse idolatrie Vriah the Priest committed to please king Ahaz the Scripture will tell you And were there no speciall examples the serious inuectiues of the Prophets against them and the whole land as well for false religion as corrupt manners are euident testimonies that Priestes from the lowest to the highest might erre Esaie saith The Priest and the Prophet haue erred they haue gone awaie they faile in vision they stumble in iudgement Our Sauiour charged his Disciples to beware of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadduces which needed not vnlesse it were erronious And think you these were no errours which the Sonne of God reproued in the Pharisees You haue made the coÌ„maundement of God of no authoritie by your tradition many such like things you do teaching for doctrines the commandements of men The Sadduces errour denying both the resurrection of the bodie and immortality of the soule is often mentioned in the Scriptures and openly refuted by our Sauior And yet the high Priestes were often Sadduces and in the chiefe councels consistories of Ierusalem where the greatest causes of religion and matters of weight were determined sate halfe Sadduces halfe Pharisees sometimes only Sadduces which were plaine Atheisâ—s and wicked heretikes Phi. That ouerthroweth not Peters priuilege Theo. Much lesse doth it establish Peters priuilege for the which cause you allege it but if Moses successour might erre why not Peters Phi. Our assertion is they can not erre you say they can Reason is that you proue your affirmatiue Theo. The Scripture proueth the generall that God is true and all men lyars you except the Bishoppe of Rome as not subiect to errour and ignoraunce reason is you proue your exception and that strongly least you bee conuicted of insolent presumption to fasten the spirite of truth to the Popes chaire without great and good assurance from him that is the fountaine of truth and the giuer of the holy Ghost Phi. We hold by Christes promise Theo. Shew that and you be discharged Phi. Thy faith shall not faile Theo. Proue that to bee spoken to the Bishoppe of Rome Phi. It was spoken to Peter Theo. But not to the Pope Phi. That which Peter had his successour
the Recordes that lay at Rome in your own keeping and the thing not spied Phi. A name is soone thrust in Theo. But whole sentences and whole leaues can not bee thrust in without stealing away the original laying a counterfeit in place thereof which was easie to be discerned Honorius cause is mentioned discussed in 26 seueral places of the councell two of his epistles repeated at large one of 9. skore 12. lines the other of threeskore and sixteene lynes which argue the whole councel to be forged or these branches concerning Honorius to be as sincere as the rest Phi. One Councell is soone corrupted Theo. But may you reiect your owne Recordes as forged and bring neither reason suspition nor probabilitie when by whom or how this was or could bee done Giue vs leaue to doe the like to the rest of your Romish Records where good cause leadeth vs and see what wil become of your Religion Phi. In deede this one we thinke to be forged Theo. A generall Councell repeating the matter which you sticke at more than twentie times and lying safe in your owne custodie you suspect to bee forged and vpon no ground but onely because it condemneth a Bishoppe of Rome for an heretike and yet you can not denie that but you must denie more Leo the second accursed Honorius his predecessour for the same heresie The seconde Councell of Nice which you greatly reuerence and call the seuenth generall Councell confesseth Honorius was condemned in the sixt generall Councell and themselues reiect him by name for an heretike whereto the Legates of Adrian then Bishoppe of Rome there present consented and subscribed Adrian the seconde in a Councell at Rome confessed that Honorius once Bishoppe of Rome was accused of heresie and condemned after his death by the consent of the Romane See and this his confession was read and allowed in the eight generall Councell of Constantinople If al these be forged that at Rome where your selues were the keepers how good cause haue we to suspect the rest of your euideÌ„ce which tend chiefly to vphold the Popes pride to encrease his gaine agree neither with theÌ„selues nor with the state of those times wherein they should be written nor with the best and approued stories of the Church Phi. Synce three generall Councels recken Honorius as condemned of heresie and specially the Decretall of Leo the second which the Bishoppes of Rome woulde soone haue disclaimed if it had beene suspected I dare not say that all these are forged for feare lest I ouerthrowe the credite of all Romane Recordes and therefore I thinke rather the Councell that first condemned him mistooke his meaning or that the letters which they sawe were written in his name by some euill willers of his both which cases are possible Theo. You mend this gappe and make a bigger You saue the Romane Libraries from corrupt Recordes and vpbrayde a generall councel with rash iudgement and lacke of vnderstanding for if they condemned Honorius not onely their brother but also their better as you take him and the head of the Church for an heretike and that after his death and either conceiued not the sense of his woordes or tooke not heede to the seale and subscription of his letters that those were Authentike they deseruâ—d not to bee counted Christians much lesse to goe for a lawfull and generall Councell And the Bishoppes of Rome that came after and confirmed the same when they might and should haue reprooued the Councell of indiscretion or malice and defended the innocencie of Honorius were not successours to him but conspiratours against him and so none of your shiftes are either sound or likely Howsoeuer you wrangle with the fact yet this is euident and without contradiction that three generall Councels eche after other were of opinion the Pope might liue and die an heritike and Agatho Leo Adrian the first and second all Bishoppes of Rome confessed thus much by their Decretals and yeelded thereto by their subscriptions Which if you graunt condemne or acquite Honorius of heresie at your pleasures Wee haue the full consent of the East and West Churches that the Bishoppe of Rome may erre which you at this present so stifly deny Phi. If one did erre the number is not so great Theo. If one did others may yet I haue named three that were condemned for heresie and Apostasie Marcellinus Liberius Honorius and moe I might that erred in like manner as Vigilius Anastatius Celestinus and others but I see you are determined to beleeue none that make against you in this point and therefore I were as good saue my labour as spend longer time with one that is past all sense Phi. If you prooue they erred I will not defende them Theo. But in reporting their sayings and doings you giue credite to none bee they neuer so indifferent and auncient Phi. Wee credite them if a greater number of writers doe not contradict them Theo. If certaine late fauourers of the Pope without trueth or shame doe gainesay the Stories that went before them thinke you the partiall and corrupt writinges of such men woorthie to bee taken against others that bee both elder and syncerer Phi. I euer goe with antiquitie and vniuersalitie Theo. But when you come to the push you care neither for fathers nor Councels Prouinciall nor generall if they crosse your affections or touch the Popes ambition There ancient writers liuing in the same time with Liberius affirme that he subscribed to the Arrians and Sozomene that wrate within 40. yeres of the deed doing saith no lesse you beleeue neither them nor your owne stories which with one consent followed that report till some in our age to make the Popes Tribunal infallible began not only to doubt but also to deny Liberius fact Two general Councels condemne Honorius for an heretike and the third auouâ—heth him to haue been condemned not without the knowledge of his successours the bishops of Rome that came after him You regard neither Popes nor Synods where they say that Honorius erred in other things where you thinke they make with you they shall be sacred and auncient fathers Councels as though you were not bound to yeeld vnto trueth but that onely were trueth which liked you Phi. Liberius was forced and Honorius deceiued with a likelyhood of trueth this is all you can get of these sacred and ancient fathers and Councels Theo. We need no more No man falleth from the faith but he is either forced or deceiued and yet this wee get besides which we most esteeme that these fathers and Councels were of opinion and saw by experience the Bishop of Rome did and might erre Yeeld to this and wee remit you the rest Phi. Not till I see what else you will bring You talke of Vigilius and Anastasius but I thinke more than you can proue Theo. Of Vigillius
that from thence foorth he may declare all his subiectes to be discharged of their fealtie towardes him and giue vp his Land to be possessed by Catholiks which catholiks without all contradiction when they haue driuen out the heretiks shall haue and hold the same and so preserue it in puritie of faith the interest and right of the chiefe Lord euer remaining safe whole so that himselfe giue no impediment to the execution of this Decree And the same law to take place in such also as be Soueraigne Lords and haue no superiours Theo. Our question is not what numbers the Pope hath gathered nor what Decrees hee hath made to settle and assure his kingdom the iudgementes of God are righteous and meruelous as well against Princes as priuate men But we demaund what commission the Pope and his Prelates whom God appointed to be subiect to Princes had to determine thus against Princes to take both their crownes and Realmes from them when they listed to excommunicate them The number of Persons was aboue twelue hundred as you crake Bishops and other Prelates but will it please you to remember that eight hundred of them were no Bishops but Priors conuentuall their substitutes euen dreaming Monkes and begging Friers that then began to pester the world and had no right to sit in Councels By such creatures of his owne making and at his sole disposing it was easie for your Father to ouerrule all the Bishops of the worlde if they would haue saide nay such cunning deuises the Bishop of Rome hath to call and frame councels to his purpose And what if no such thing were there decreed but onely proposed and consulted on and your skill nowe serueth you to alleage it as a most renowmed decree and your adherentes deceiue the people with these thinges as fully concluded in that Councell Looke to the verie same place whence you tooke the number of them that were present and the very next wordes and see whether it be not so Venere saith Platina multa tum quidem in consultationem nec decerni tamen quicquam apertè potuit Many thinges were debated in that councell but nothing coulde plainely bee decided by reason the Pope suddainly departing to compose some tumults then suddainly risen died by the way And so your famous generall councell of Laterane is come to a swarme of hungrie Friers consulting how to defeate Princes of their temporall Dominions and lay them open to the spoile but not concluding as being preuented by the Popes hastned and inopined death Phi. We can declare and plainely deduce all that hath beene saide in the premises from holy Scriptures warrant of antiquitie The. So had you need For if no No man may sunder that which God hath ioyned togither much lesse may you displace that which God hath ordained or so much as resist the sword which he hath commaunded to be honoured and obeyed To discharge your selues from the ordinance of God from the preceptes of Christ and doctrine of his holie spirit you must not bring vs Popes Schoolemen and Fiers the eldest of theÌ„ a 1000. yeares after Christ children will not be deceiued with such â—ables you must proue your selues assoiled froÌ„ obedience to Princes when the Pope list to giue you leaue by the selfe same heauenly records by which we proue Popes and all others to be subiect to them The worde of God bindeth you to obey them the wordes of men can not loose you Goe therefore directly and soundly to worke or else you do but increase your sinne Phi. I will and you shall see it apparantly proued by the olde and new Testament and by the examples of the primatiue church that Princes for heresie and such like crimes may be lawfully deposed by Priests Theo. This is it which we require you to proue but first you confesse that Princes haue their power from God and that they may chalenge honour subiection and tribute of all that be within their Realmes not onely by the consent of men but by Gods institution and ordinance Phi. They be but humane creatures Theo. How shoulde men be more then humane creatures but their power is of God S. Paul speaking of them saith There is no power but of God and the powers that be are ordained of God So before him saide the wisedom of God By me kinges raigne Rule therefore is giuen them of the Lord and power by the most high They be Gods ministers for the wealth of him that doeth well and to take vengeance on him that doeth euil As their power is from God so the commaundemâ—nt of God is verie plaine that we should honour them Feare God honour the king saith S. Peter and Solomon expressing the same with a more effectual worde Feare saith hee the Lord and the king Yea such is the honour that God hath allowed them that we may neither open our lips bende our heats nor lift vp our handes against them Thou shalt not speake euil of the Ruler of thy people curse not the king no not in thy thought much lesse then may we resist them Let euerie soule be subiect saith the Apostle to the higher powers Whosoeuer resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God and they that resist shal receiue to themselues iudgement You must be subiect not onely because of wrath but also for conscience sake And so S. Peter Submit your selues vnto euery humane creature or ordinance vnto the king as surpassing the rest For so is the will of God And threatning an heauie iudgement hee sayth chiefly to them that despise gouermeÌ„t and feare not to speake euil of such as are in authoritie S. Iude noteth wicked and fleshly teachers for the same fault with the very same wordes They despise gouernment and speake euill of them that are in authority Of this subiection due vnto Princes the tribute which we paie them is by S. Pauls iudgement the very signe and earnest You must be subiect For for this cause pay ye also tribute And therefore the Lord himselfe when he charged all men to giue vnto Caesar that which was Cesars ment that honour subiection and tribute which by Gods law is due vnto Caesar. For that is Caesars which God by his word hath allotted vnto Caesar that no mortall man may withhold from Caesar since the Sonne of God hath allowed it vnto Caesar. Phi. All this we knowe Theo. All this if you keepe as well as know you shall offend the lesse Phi. Honour subiection and tribute must be giuen to Caesar so long as Caesar is Caesar but if Caesar bee no longer Caesar then these thinges are not due to him Theo. What meane you by this so long as Caesar is Caesar Phi. That is vntil he be lawfully depriued of his Empire Theo. Then Caesar shall haue these thinges so long as you list to suffer him to be Caesar but if you once denounce him
with armes not to vse targets not to handle speares not to bend bowes not to cast dartes but only to reproue and freely to warne This therefore is no cleare example that Priests may vse armes represse impietie by forcible wayes as you infer but a wicked abusing drawing of the scriptures to serue your warlike dispositions For Gods mans law wil assure you that priests bishops may be no warriers in their owne persons if you regard not that your own law will teach you that no clergie man may put himselfe in armes no not at the commaundement of the Bishop of Rome Pope Iohn saith Tractare de armis terrenae potescatis est To meddle with armes pertayneth to the ciuill power Pope Innocentius saith Christ who was the paterne of al priests forbad carnal weapons to be taken in hand for him A councel at Toledo in Spain Clergie men that in any factiō whatsoeuer wittingly take armes shal loose their degree be thrust in some Abbay for euer An other at Meaux in Fraunce Whatsoeuer they be that be of the clergy let thē take no warlike weapons in hand nor go with armes If they doe let them loose their degree as contemners of the sacred canōs prophaners of ecclesiasticall dignity The full resolution of all these canons by the confession of your law is this Hijs ita respondetur Sacerdotes propria manu arma arripere non debent The meaning of these places is that priests themselues in their own persons should not take weapon You heard before how often S. Paul charged that a Bishop should be no fighter nor striker and that the weapons of their warfare were not carnall and by the Lordes owne voice that he which striketh his fellowe seruauntes shall haue his portion with hypocrites What a desperate conclusion then haue you wrested out of this example against your own canons against the sacred Scriptures that priestes may not onely vse armes and represse impietie by forcible waies but assayle the person of their Soueraigne with open violence which if it were lawfull for them to vse armes as it is for others they might not so much as touch The precept of God is plaine Touch not mine annointed which reacheth to others but chiefly to Princes You may not speake euill of them can it be lawful for you to doe euill To resist them is damnation what is it then with armed violence to oppresse them Dauid was touched in his hart for cutting off the lap of Sauls garmēt you boldly conclude that priests with their own hands may violate the Princes person And where a cursing thought against them is a sinne before God a murdering hand vpon them is a merit by your doctrine Phi. We take our light from this example For here the Priests as the text saith not only resisted but when they saw the king become a leper they expelled him out of the Sāctuarie Theo. The word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth they caused or gat him to hasten thence but not with violence for the next words shew that he was forced of himself to go foorth because the Lord had strokē him And so the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie the common translation which you call S. Hieroms hath for it Ipse accelerauit egredi he made hast of himselfe to go forth as terrified with the plague which he felt Phi. The Priests seuered him from al companie of men a special figure of the priests power to excommunicate for heresie as wel Princes as others in the new law the regiment of his kingdom was cōmitted to his son The. You promised ful proofes out of the word of God that priests might depose Princes now you come with empty figures of your own applying without truth or coherence Vzziah dwelt apart in an house from others because of his leprosie for so the law of God cōmanded the danger of that disease required but that the Priests seuered him frō al company this is your own making without the booke the text hath no such wordes much lesse do you find in the scriptures that he was depriued of his kingdom Iothan his son gouerned his house iudged the people of the Land because the king himselfe might not be conuersant among men by reason of his sicknes but the crowne still continued in the father though a leper Iothan began not his raign til his father was dead whom the scripture calleth the king of Iudah in the twentie fifth yeare of his raigne and last yere of his life Ph. Whose dutie was it to separate Lepers from sound Persons but only the Priests Theo. The Priests were to discerne who were lepers but the Magistrate was to see thē put apart to keepe them from infecting others The putting lepers asunder from others was first cōmanded to the childrē of Israel by them first executed though the pronoūcing them to be lepers was alwaies reserued to the Priest Phi. And the leprosie of the body resembleth the leprosie of the soule Ergo Priests may separate Princes from the church for heresie apostasie which be the sores of the inward mā as the leprosie is of the outward The. You must proue first before your cōclusion wil follow that lepers by the law of God lost their inheritance which is not true Next that euery Prince sinning must be deposed which is as false For leprosy resembleth not only heresie or apostasie but al kind of iniquitie Ambrose saith Contemptus verbi est lepra mentis the cōtempt of the word is the leprosie of the mind And so Chrysostom The leprosie of the soule which is sinne is onely to be feared And likewise the rest Intelligimus omnes auaros cupidos intus in anima peccati lepra esse perfusos We vnderstād al couetous greedy persōs to be inwardly infected with the leprosie of sinne If the leprosie of the soule be a cause sufficient to remoue princes from their Seates what Prince shal keepe his kingdome or what Bishop his chaire Bee they not all sinners as well Bishops as Princes If you take vpon you the moderation of the matter that all sinnes shall not depriue them of their Crownes but onely heresie then you decide the case like a lord as you list and checke your owne conclusion as pernitious to Popes no lesse than to Princes and wee may iustly reiect it as a figure of your owne framing without probabilitie in the antecedent or necessitie in the consequent Phi. Note the cause why king Vzziah was smitten with the leprosie for presuming to execute the spiritual and Priestly function whereof now you make thē supreme Gouernours Theo. I note it well and when we defend that Princes may preach baptize forgiue sinnes or minister the Lords supper then threaten vs with Vzziahs pride and plague on Gods name In the
the right members of Antichrist when you make such reasons to flatter the Bishop of Rome Phi. The Scripture saith of Elias He cast downe Kings destroied them and plucked the honorable from their Seates and of Eliseus in the same place he neuer feared Prince nor could be ouercome by any Theo. If the Scripture will not serue your turnes you wil make it I perceaue by one meanes or other The wordes as they lie in the Greeke are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hee brought Kinges to destruction and the mightie from their beddes you to help the matter put in termes of your owne and say he cast downe Kings destroied them and plucked them from their Seats as if Elias had beene some Iustie swash-buckler to plucke them out by the eares and not a zealous and sincere Prophet to denounce the will of God vnto them with the perill of his owne life for the which he is commended And so of Elizeus the wise man saith He was shaken that is driuen from the doing of his dutie or afearde to doe that which God willed him for any ruler These and such like praises if you take them as in Prophets and Preachers they may and ought to be taken which is not to shrinke from declaring the will of God for any Prince to aduertise them as well as others of the danger and destruction that hangeth ouer their heads they be great vertues and shined in Elias and Eliseus very brightly But if you aggrauate words to persuade men that Elias or Eliseus did depose princes as superiour iudges or layd violent hands on them to pul them from their thrones you make them Rebellious disturbers of states which was farre from them and not religious seruants to God as in deede they were Phi. By these examples of holy Scriptures we see first that annointed and lawfully created Kings may be deposed secondly for what causes they were depriued thirdly that as in the creation and consecration of Kings so also in their depriuation God vsed the ministerie of Priests and Prophets as either ordinarie or extraordinarie Iudges or executors of his wil towards them Theo. Your examples haue beene throughly considered and howsoeuer you correct and qualifie your conclusion the precedents no way fitte your purpose That annointed and lawfully created Kings may be chased from the gouernment the example of Iehu will iustifie if you adde these two prouisoes that the warrant be special from Gods own mouth the fact be done by the Magistrate whom God hath authorized to take the sword for so doth Iehues example require the rest intend no such thing The Princes which you name were either not deposed or not lawfully created Saul was presently reiected from Gods fauour and spirit from the possession of the Kingdome hee was not but only cutte off from the succession Ieroboam was sorely threatned and Vzziah sharply punished but yet neither of them deposed Achab was twise rebuked by Elias but not depriued And Athalia whom the hie-Priest in the young Kings name commaunded to bee slaine vsurped and was neuer lawfully created The causes for which they were depriued wee neede not dispute of vnlesse you first shew that they were depriued Athalia was slaine neither for Apostasie nor heresie but for vsurping the Crowne against the right heire Vzziahs actes were commended but his pride detested by God Ioram was of no worse religion than Achab his Father and others before him and after him which yet were not deposed But God reuenged on him the whordomes and witchcraftes of his mother Iesabel which hee suffered and the bloud of all his seruantes the Prophets which hee spilt in the raigne both of Achab and Ioram That cause the Prophet vttered to Iehu and Iehu to Ioram when hee slew by Israel And this plague vppon Achabs wife and house Elias threatned after the killing of Naboth Phi. Was not Ioram an Idolater Theo. Yeas that encreased his sinne but it was not the cause that he lost his kingdome Your third obseruation halteth downe right and doubleth so many times either and or that in effect you resolue nothing You say God vsed the ministerie of Priests and Prophets in the depriuation of Kings He vsed their mouthes to foretell and declare the plagues that he would send on Princes and sometimes their hands to annoint such as he would haue succeede But he vsed them neither as ordinarie nor extraordinarie Iudges nor executors to depose Princes Messengers they were to deliuer by worde of mouth that which God had determined to such as did or shoulde inherite the kingdome other execution or authoritie to depriue Princes they had none And this is farre from that which you claime for the Pope whome you make the superuisour of Princes and an ordinarie Iudge to compell them and displace them if hee see cause Phi. For so much as these Princes helde their dignities and Soueraigne authorities of God and were bound to occupie and vse the same with what forces soeuer they had to the aduauncement of his Religion and to the true worshippe and honour of their supreme Lord and Master as also to the beneâ—ite and preseruation of his people in fayth and feare of him the Priestes and Prophetes that then had the principall and direct charge of mens soules and Religion and were in spirituall matters superiours to their owne Princes rightly opposed themselues in all such actions as tended to the dishonour of GOD destruction of Religion and to the notorious domage of the soules of them ouer whome they did raigne and in the behalfe of GOD executed iustice vpon such as contrarie to their obligation and first institution abused their soueraigne power to the destruction of true religion and aduauncement of Idolatrie Heresie or such like abhomination Theo. Neuer giue vs a reason why Princes may bee deposed by Priests and Prophets so long as the fact it selfe is in doubt not yet proued to be lawful That kings holde their soueraigne authorities of God and are bound to vse the same to the aduauncement of his true worship and honour as also to the preseruation of his people in the faith and feare of him this is a point alwayes vrged by vs and lately confessed by you before you were ware for you were wont to tell vs that Princes might not meddle with spirituall things or causes and now you professe that Princes are bound to vse their authorities and forces whatsoeuer to the aduauncement of Gods religion and to the true worship and honour of God and preseruation of his people in the fayth and feare of him This then is a sound and an euident trueth alleaged by vs and allowed by you But when you grow from this to conclude that if Princes vse not their swordes and forces as they shoulde and are bounde Priestes may take their dignities and authorities from them you put Iron feete to a golden head and thinke the metals wil agree But
as in Heli who was both Iudge and high-Priest but commonly both the Persons were distinct and the offices And hence grew the custome from inferiour ecclesiastical Iudges to appeale to the High-Priest and from inferiour Princes secular Iudges to appeale to the King or Emperour You haue turned into ex and not only debarred the Prince of all his right but subiected him to the Priest In al doubts and differences betwixt Prince and people euen to the losse of his Crowne if the Priest say the word Phi. We follow the latine text as wee found it Theo. You might easily follow that which your selues had framed to your liking but the order of the Iewes common wealth and the circumstances of the text it selfe admitte no such meaning as you make of it For it is more than euident and testified not in a few places of the scriptures that al causes neither were nor might bee referred to the Priest Moses at the counsell of Iethro chose men of courage out of all Israel made them heads ouer the people Rulers ouer thousands Rulers ouer hundreds Rulers ouer fifties Rulers ouer tens And they iudged the people at all seasons but brought the hard causes vnto Moses for they iudged al small or easie matters themselues And though Moses by them was eased of all sauing hard and importing causes yet finding that burden too heauie for one man alone he complained vnto God and saide I am not able to beare all this people alone for it is too heauie for me To whom God made answere Gather me seuentie men of the Elders of Israel and bring them vnto the Tabernacle of the Congregation and I will come downe and talke with them there and take off the spirit that is vpon thee and put it vpon them and they shal beare the burden of the people with thee so thou shalt not beare it alone This distinction of inferiour and superiour iudges God after by his law established in that common wealth for euer In the next chapter before this which you alledge order is taken for inferiour iudge in euery Citie throughout the Land Iudges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates that is in al thy Cities which the Lord thy God giueth thee throughout thy Tribes and they shall iudge the people with righteous Iudgement In this Chapter and these very wordes which here you cite Superiour iudges are prescribed to whom harder causes and matters of greater difficultie were to be referred And so the wordes precisely sound If there fall out an hard matter for thee to iudge betwene blood and blood strife and strife sore and sore that be matters of iudgement in thy gates thou shalt rise and go vp to the place which the Lord thy God shall chose there in the land of promise And goe to the Priests of Leui and to the Iudge which shall be in those dayes and aske them and they shall shew thee the matter of iudgement The iudge of which he speaketh was the tēporal Magistrate for so the copulatiue leadeth vs and by that name were the chiefe Rulers of Gods People called before Kings were ordayned as the Booke of Iudges witnesseth neither was the iudge subiect to the Priest but had his charge besides and aboue the Priest which was to see the law of God exactly kept and obserued in all points of all men and to take vengeance on the breaker of any part thereof when as yet there were no kinges and after the creation of kinges both Priest and Iudge were subiect to the king This fourme of regiment by lower and higher Iudges and those both ecclesiasticall and cyuill king Iehosaphat renewed after he returned safe from the battell wherein Achab was slaine For hee set Iudges in the Lande in all the fensed Cities of Iudah Citie by Citie Also in Ierusalem hee appointed of the Leuites and of the Priestes and of the heades of the houses of Israel for the iudgement of the Lorde and for matters of doubt and they dwelt at Hierusalem And hee commaunded them saying thus shall yee doe in the feare of the Lorde in trueth and in a perfect heart euery cause that shall come before you from your brethren remayning in their Cities betweene blood and blood betweene Lawe and precept statutes and iudgements you shall instruct them therein and they shall not trespasse against the Lorde And beholde Amariah the Priest shall bee chiefe ouer you in euery matter of the Lordes and Zebadiah the captaine of the house of Iudah shall bee chiefe ouer you in euery matter of the kinges and the Leuites shal bee Rulers or ouerseers in your presence or vnder you Iehosaphat put that in execution which GOD prescribed by Moses for the debating and determining of greater and weightier causes among the children of Israel placing a Councell of Priestes and secular Magistrates at Hierusalem to consider of those doubtes of the Lawe and offences against GOD and the king which passed the reache of inferiour Iudges in euery Citie Marke then howe many errors you haue committed in alleaging this one place The gouernement which God setled in their common wealth to supply the want of kinges the defence might both ouer-rule kinges and depose kinges and yet when this was ordained there was no king created nor intended in Israel much lesse included or subiected to this consistorie Againe where obedience in these wordes is commaunded as well towardes the ciuil magistrate as towards the Priest you strike out the magistrate cleane and bring both Prince and people in subiection to the Priest in things and causes that be not spiritual but temporal For the deposing of Princes is a meere temporal act and you haue lesse to doe with Princes Crownes than with priuate mens inheritances which yet the priest may not dispose Thirdly the matters which belonged to them and the iudgements which they should giue were precisely limited to the lawe of God in other thinges they might not presume Nowe resisting and deposing of Princes bee things cleane besides the Lawe which Moses deliuered and therefore not determinable by those that sate to iudge according to that Law Fourthly what question can this bee betweene the Prince and the people whether the Magistrate shal bee deposed since GOD hath expressely commaunded the people to bee subiect to the sworde and not to resist against the which precept no earthly Court may deliberate much lesse determine to breake his lawe or licence the people to frustrate his heauenly wil. It is one thing to disburden the cōscience from obeying the euill that a Prince commaundeth which a Priest may doe and an other thing to take the Princes sworde out of his hand for abusing his authoritie which the Priest may not doe Lastly you force the whole text against the manifest experience of those times For it is euident that kinges commaunded and displaced high Priestes but that euer high Priest iudicially displaced
you Marke howe Paul deliuered the man of Corinth to Satan Eijciebatur nempe a communi fidelium caetu hee was cast out of the congregation of the faythfull hee was cutte off from the flocke of Christ and left naked and being so destitute of Gods helpe hee lay open to the Wolfe and subiect to euerie assault So sayth Theodorete By this place where Paul deliuered the incestuous Corinthian to Satan we are taught that the diuell inuadeth them which are seuered cut off from the bodie of the church finding them destitute of Gods grace Keepe your selues therefore within your limites Pastors haue their charge which is as S. Paul noteth to watch ouer soules they haue not to doe with the goods or bodies of the faithfull Their goods are Caesars by the plaine resolution of our Sauiour Giue vnto Caesar the thinges which are Caesars Which God willed Samuel to aduertise the people of when they first demaunded a king Shew them the right or law of the king that shall raigne ouer them And so Samuel did saying This shall be the law of your king He shall take your sonnes and appoint them for his charets and to be his horsemen shal make theÌ„ captaines ouer thowsandes captaines ouer fiftyes set them to eare his grounds to reape his haruest to make his instruments of war things to serue for his charets And he wil take your fields vines best olyues giue them to his seruants And he wil take the tenth of your corn wine giue it to his Princes seruitors And he wil take your men seruaÌ„ts maideseruants the choice of your yong meÌ„ your asses vse theÌ„ to his work The tenth of your sheep wil he take ye shal be his seruaÌ„ts Phi. Make you the king Lord of al without exception Theo. Though God neuer ment that Princes inordinate priuate pleasures should wast consume the wealth of their Realmes yet may they iustly commaunde the goods and bodies of all their Subiects in time both of warre and peace for any publike necessitie or vtilitie Whereby God declareth Princes and not Pastours to bee the right ouerseers of temporall and earthlie matters and consequentlie that the power of the keyes extendeth not to those thinges which are committed to the Princes charge I meane neither to the goods nor to the bodies of christian men To a king sayth Chrysostom are the bodies of men committed to the Priest their soules The king pardoneth corporall offences the Priest remitteth the guiltinesse of sinne The king compelleth the Priest exhorteth the one with force the other with aduise the kings weapons are sensible the Priâ—stes are Ghostly The like distinction betweene them doth S. Hierom make Rex nolentibus praest Episcopus volentibus ille timore subijcit hic seruituti donatur ille corpora custodit ad mortem hic animas seruat ad vitam The king ruleth men vnwilling the Priest none saue the willing the king hath his in subiection with terrour the Priest is appointed for the seruice of his the king mastereth their bodies with death but the Priest preserueth their soules to life This power of the sword our Sauiour precisely prohibited his Apostles as I haue shewed and therefore you may not indirectly nor by accident chalenge it Phi. Why then did Paul saie Knowe you not that wee shall iudge the Angels howe much more secular matters Theo. If this bee the best hold you haue in the new Testament for secular matters you must take the paynes to light from your horse and goe on your feete as well as your neighbours For the Apostle speaketh that of all Christians which you restraine to Priests and moueth the parties striuing rather to make their brethren arbiters of their quarrelles than to persue one an other before Infidels What grant is this to you in your owne right to bee iudges ouer your brethren in all secular affaires and not onely without their consents to determine their griefes but also to bereaue them of their goods and lands and afflict their bodies yea to pull the sword out of Princes handes take their Crownes from their heades when the rulers are beleeuers as well as the Preachers Do you not know saith S. Paul that the Saincts not onely Priests shal iudge the world If the world then shal be iudged by you speaking to all that were of the church at Corinth are ye vnworthy to iudge the smalest matters He saith not it was their right to iudge secular matters but they were worthy to bee trusted with them whom God would trust with greater and shewing that hee spake this of the people not of the Priests he saith If then you haue any iudgementes concerning the thinges of this life make euen the contemptible in the church your iudges Hee saith not God hath made them your iudges but rather thaÌ„ your contending brabling about earthly things which you professe to contemn should be knowen to Ethniks such as hate deride both Christ you your selues make the meanest of your brethren whom you will your iudges Nowe ioyne your conclusion ergo the Pope hath authority to dispose the goods lands and liues of all the faithâ—ul euen of Princes theÌ„selues be they neuer so iust or religious Magistrates and see what a non sequitur you conclude out of S. Pauls wordes Phi. The Primatiue church vnderstood this place of Priests and Bishops as appeareth by Sainct Augustine complaining of the tumultuous perplexities of other mens causes in secular matters to the which troubles sayth he the Apostle hath fastened vs. 1. Corinth 5. The like hee witnesseth of S. Ambrose at Millan And S. Gregory reporteth the same of himselfe at Rome Theo. Trueth it is the Bishoppes of the Primatiue church were greatly troubled with those matters not as ordinarie iudges of those causes but as arbiters elected by the consent of both parties And I coulde requite you with Gregories owne wordes of the same matter in the same place Quod certum est nos non debere which it is certaine we ought not to do but yet I thinke so long as it did not hinder their vocation function though it were troublesome vnto them they might neither in charitie nor in dutie refuse it because it tended to the preseruing of peace loue amongest meÌ„ And the Apostle had licenced all men to choose whom they woulde in the church for their iudges no doubt meaning that they which were chosen shoulde take the paynes to heare the cause and make an ende of the strife But it is one thing to make peace between brethren as they did by heaping their griefes with consent of both sides and an other thing to claime a iudiciall interest in those causes in spite of mens heartes Which wrong you shoulde not offer the least of your brethren much lesse may you
a Marginall note Phi. There is no warre in the world so iust or honorable be it ciuill or forraigne as that which is waged for religion we say for the true auncient Catholike Romane religion which by the lawes of holy church and all christian Nations is adiudged to bee the only true worship of God and vnto the obedience of which all Princes people haue yeelded themselues either by oth vow or sacramentes or euerie of these waies For this it is goodly and honorable to fight in such order and times as wee bee warranted in conscience and law by our supreme Pastours and Priestes and not for wild condemned heresies against most lawfull christian catholikes kinges Priests as the rebellious Protestantes and Caluinistes of this time doe without all order law or warrant of God or man As the armes taken for defence of godlie honour and inheritāce in such sort difference from heretical tumults as is said are so much more commendable and glorious for that no crime in the world deserueth more sharpe and zealous pursuite of extreme reuenge whether it be in superiours or subiects than reuolting from the faith to strange religions Theo. Bee you not maruelous sharpe and sounde disputers which alwaies proue that you neede not and euer inferre that you should not Phi. Wee proue directly that which wee vndertooke Theo. What vndertooke you Phi. That Princes might be depriued Theo. By sentence meane you or by violence Phi. By sentence if that will serue but if they yeelde not thereto then by violence Theo. Your iudiciall power to giue sentence of depriuation against them you would faine haue established by the Scriptures and examples of the Primatiue church howe short you came of that reckoning I leaue the wise to consider You proceede nowe to the violent expelling them from their Princely seates wherein it is a world to see how idlely you hunt about or rather purposely pursue the wrong foote because in the right you finde no reliefe Warre for the Catholike Religion is both lawfull and honorable you saie you must adde of the subiectes against their Prince or else you range cleane besides our question Wee striue not what causes may leade christian Princes to make warre on their neighbors but whether it be lawfull or tolerable for the subiect to beare armes against his naturall and absolute Prince You proue which is nothing to your purpose that princes haue waged warres for religion when you come to make your conclusion you secretly conuey this vnder hand which is most in doubtt betwixt vs and in generall termes you proclaime that warres for religion are iust and honorable But Sir in this interprise the person must be respected as well as the cause Be the cause neuer so iust if the person be not authorized by God to draw the sworde they bee no iust nor lawfull warres but barbarous and theenish vprores For say your selfe when malefactours deserue to die may priuate men put them to death without the Magistrate Phi. No. Theo. And if they do be they not murderers though the crime which they reuenge be worthy of death Phi. They bee Theo. Then if in priuate punishmentes men may not presume without his authoritie that beareth the sworde much lesse may they venter on open warres which are wilfull and furious executions by plaine force without all order of iustice vnlesse they be directly warranted by him that hath the sword from God to take vengeance of the wicked Phi. We be warranted in conscience and law Theo. Wee talke nowe of your conclusion not of your commission If Princes who beare the sword may lawfully wage warre for religion is it consequent I aske you that priuate men which haue not the sword may doe the same Phi. Priuate men may not beare armes without authoritie Theo. And if they doe bee they not plaine theeues and murtherers Phi. If they be not warranted to fight Theo. To rifle and slea one is theft and murther by the lawes of God and man what then are they that spoile Realmes and kill thowsandes with armed violence but grand theeues and murtherers Phi. If they be not lawfully authorized thereto they be no better than robbers and slaughterers Theo. Then Princes may mage warre if the cause bee good because God hath giuen them the sworde to maintaine iustice and if that bee refused to offer force both at home and abroade priuate persons may not doe the like bee the cause neuer so iust for so much as they bee not licenced by God to beare or vse the sword Phi. I tolde you before that we bee warranted Theo. So had you neede Your warres else for religion bee no lawfull iust armes but desperate and wicked tumults But by whom are you warranted Phi. By our supreme Pastors and Priestes Theo. Doe Pastours and Priestes beare the sworde Phi. I say not so but they warrant vs to take the sworde Theo. Can they warrant you to take the sword that haue no autoritie to beare the sword Phi. They be superiour iudges to these that beare the sworde Theo. What In temporall causes Phi. No but in spirituall Theo. Fighting and killing are martiall not spirituall affaires Phi. Yet to be directed by spiritual Pastors Theo. We striue not for directing but for authorizing of armes Preachers may be consulted whether the quarrell be iust but onely the Magistrate that hath from heauen supreme power of goods lands life and death can warrant the subiect to vse the sword Phi. The cause maketh the warre lawfull or otherwise It is godly and honorable to fight for religion we say for the true ancient catholike Romane religion in such order and time as we be warranted in conscience and lawe by our supreme Pastours Priestes and not for vile condemned heresies against most lawfull christian catholike kinges and Priestes as the rebellious Protestants and Caluinistes of this time do without all order law warrant of God or man Theo. If Nabals sheepe be not all shorne I dare warrant you better intertainement there than euer Dauid had Spoiles massacres conspiracies and treasons euen to the destruction and murther of Princes by their own seruāts if a Priest say the word you count in your selues to be iust honorable and godlie warres If others doe but stand on their gard to keepe their liues and families from the bloodie rage of their enimies seeking to put whole townes and Prouinces of them to the sworde against all lawe and reason and to disturbe the kingdomes in the minoritie of the right Gouernours or if they defend their ancient and christian liberties couenanted and agreed on by those Princes to whō they first submitted themselues and euer since confirmed and allowed by the kinges that haue succeeded If in either of these two cases the godly require their right and offer no wrong impugne not their Princes but onely saue their owne liues you crie rebellious heretikes rebellious
reportes wee may hardly trust since your speciall instaunces be so corrupted and wrested And could you shewe that which you speake of as you can not you must also proue it well done or at leâ—t to haue beene liked and allowed of the Church of Christ before we can receiue it The Apostles rule is strong against it You must bee subiect not onely for wrath but for conscience sake Many thousand Martyrs Bishoppes others submitted themselues and endured the vilest torments that coulde bee deuised against them as the ten persecutions of Christes Church vnder heathen Princes most clearly witnesse that euer any of their subiects rebelled against those bloody persecutors in respect of religion must be your care to shewe Wee reading all the monumentes of those tymes verily find none and by your silence it should appeare your selues know none otherwise we do not thinke you woulde disfurnish your cause and trouble the reader with impertinent matters That the Citizens of Antioch defended their Church with armes against the Emperour Galerius his officers I find it writteÌ„ in no good Author neither do you quote the place that Storie you may put in your Legende as taken thence by most likelyhood The temples of their bodies which were farre more precious they did not defend from the furious and insatiable rage of Diocletian Maximinus but as well at Antioche as in all other places subiect to the Romane Empire the christian men women mildly gladly suffered those torments deaths and shames which in our eyes neither flesh could beare nor nature brooke so that wee haue cause rather to maruaile at their patience than to mistrust their disobedience Phi. S. Basil and S. Ambrose people defended them against the inuasions of Heretikes Theo. After Valens the Emperour had twise decreed to banish S. Basil and was the first tyme stopped of his course by the suddaine sicknes of his sonne and terror of his wife and the second time by a straunge trembling of hande and heart as he was subscribing the sentence of deportation against him hee neuer after offered to meddle with Saint Basill but suffered him quietly to enioy his Bishopricke Yet fell there out after this a contention betweene the Lieutenaunt of Pontus and Saint Basill about the liberties of the sanctuarie for a Noble woman that had taken the Church for her refuge to saue her selfe from one that woulde haue forced her to mariage against her will The Deputie required the woman to bee deliuered the Bishoppe replied that hee might not violate the Lawes of GOD and man The Deputie stomacking Saint Basill and the more for his stout defence otherwise of the Christian faith sent for the Bishoppe to his Tribunall and commaunding him to bee stript threatned to whippe him and to teare his flesh with Iron hookes This indignitie the people could no longer abide but seeing their Pastor thus shamefully handled without the Emperours commandemeÌ„t or knowledge vpon the priuate displeasure of a Deputie for the liberties of the Church established by the Romane Lawes the whole citie men and women fell to an vprore and were like enough to haue done the Deputie some mischiefe but that Saint Basil with much adoe repressing the people deliuered his persecutor from that perill This is the true report of Saint Basils case euen out of the same author which you auouche Gregorie Nazianzene Their griefe you see was not against the Emperours power or fact but against the malice of a Lieutenant presuming vpon a priuate grudge without any warrant from the Prince not onely to doe that which the Emperour in his owne person had refrained but in most spitefull and seruile manner to abuse their Bishop against all order of Lawe And this tumult S. Basil neither procured nor praised but asswaged with his presence and offered himselfe to the Deputies pleasure Of S. Ambrose wee spake before by occasion and thither we send you It is most vntrue that the people of Millan either did or might take armes against the Emperour though hee were then but a child and therefore might make no Lawes for Religion or otherwise without Theodosius ioynt Emperour with him in possession of the scepter before him Which exception neither S. Ambrose nor other godly bishops vsed against him but submitted themselues with al meekenes when in reason they might haue taken this aduantage Of the people S. Ambrose himselfe giueth this testimonie In singulis vobis Iob reuixit in singulis sancti illius patientia virtus refulsit Quid enim praesentis dici potuit a viris Christianis quà m quod â—odie in vobis locutus est Spiritus sanctus Rogamus Auguste non pugnamus non timemus sed rogamus Hoc Christianos decet In euery one of you Iob is aliue againe in eche of you his patience and vertue shined What coulde bee sayde fitter by Christian men than that which the holy Ghost this day spake in you We beseech O Emperour we offer not armes Wee feare not to die but we intreate thy clemencie This beseemeth Christians to desire tranquillitie of peace faith but to bee constant in the truth euen vnto death And for his part when hee heard that his Church was taken vp by the Emperours souldiers he fet only somewhat the deeper sighes sayd to such as exhorted him to goe thither deliuer vp my Church I may not but sight I ought not Phi. But the people were in a commotion which appeareth by that S. Ambrose answered when they willed him to asswage their furie It lay in him not to incite them but hee had no meanes to represse them Theo. Truth it is that the people flocked to their Churches and chose rather to bee slaine in the place than to leaue them vnto Arians But that they offered armes or attempted any force either for S. Ambrose or against Valentinian is a manifest vntrueth The merchaunts were amerced and emprisoned the Nobles were hardly threatned and S. Ambrose himselfe charged as with a sedition and yet all the violence that was offered was this The people passing from one Church to an other met a Chapleine of the Arrians and some vnruly persons as in such heates it can not otherwise be chosen beganne to illude and abuse the man but the Bishop presently sent his Priestes and Deacons and rescued him from that iniurie which yet the Emperour tooke so grieuously that hee layd a number of them in Irons and imposed a great mulet vpon the whole Citie to bee paide within three dayes Farther force was none offered by the people of Millan and yet of that small disorder Saint Ambrose saith If they thought him to bee the inciter or stirrer of the people they should straightway reuenge it on him or banish him into what wildernesse they would And to that end he departed home to bed to his owne house that if any man woulde haue him into exile
the Emperour Whome wee must needes reuerence as one that our Lorde and master hath chosen And to speake the trueth Caesar is rather ours than yours as being ordained by our God And giuing a better reason for their obeying than you can for your warring We are saith hee the same men to our Princes that wee are to our neighbours To wish euill to doe euill to speake euill to thinke euill is indifferently forbidden vs towardes all men Wee may do that to no man which we say we may not to our Prince and if to no man so much the lesse to him that is so highly aduanced by our God This is sounder and seemelier doctrine for Christians than that which you bring vs out of Thomas Aquinas And where you will vs by the note in your margin to See S. Thomas a Saint of your making wee will you to See S. Paul and S. Peter Saints past all doubting You see the continuall obedience of Christes Church so long as Pagan and heathen Princes had the sworde Shee taught that all men and most of all Christians shoulde loue reuerence and honour heathen Princes as ordayned by God to beare the swoorde euen by the God of Christians and that they might neither wish euill doe euill speake euill or thinke euill of any such Powers much lesse resist them with armes and depriue them of their superioritie ouer Christians as your new saint seemeth to say And lest you thinke the Christians of those times serued and honoured heathen Princes rather for feare than for conscience which is an open slaunder to them and a lewde shift of yours directly thwarting the woordes of Saint Paul You must be subiect not because of wrath only but also for conscience sake You shall heare Tertullians report in the same place what forces the christians had if they had thought it lawfull or godly to resist when they were cruelly vexed and oppressed One night saith he with a few fierbrands would yeeld vs reuenge sufficient if it were lawfull with vs to requite euill with euill But God forbid that either they which take part with GOD shoulde reuenge themselues with humane fier or be greeued to suffer wherein they be tried If we would not practise secrete reuenge but professe open enmitie could we lacke nūber of men or force of armes Are the Moores think you or the Parthians or any one nation whatsoeuer mo in nūber than wee that are spred ouer the whole world We are not of you yet we haue filled al the places roomes which you haue your Cities Ilands Castles townes assēblies your tents tribes and wardes yea the very Palace Senate iudgement seates For what warre were wee not able and readie though wee were fewer in number than you that goe to our deathes so gladly if it were not more lawfull in our religion to be slaine than to slea We could without armes neuer rebelling but only diuiding our selues from you haue doone you spite enough with that separation For if so great a multitude as we are should haue broken from you into some corner of the world the losse of so many Citizens woulde haue both shamed you punished you Beleeue me you would haue bin afraid to see your selues left alone and amazed as amongst the dead to see silence desolation euery where You woulde haue had moe enemies than inhabitauntes where nowe you haue fewer enemies by reason of the multitude of your Citizens that are almost all Christians Within two hundreth yeeres after Christ the beeleeuers as you heare by Tertullian wanted neither number strength nor courage to resist or reuenge their persecutours What numbers and forces then had they foure fiue sixe hundreth yeeres after Christ when they were backed by Princes defended by Lawes and prouoked with fauours and honours to professe Religion and yet all that while neither vnder Pagans nor Arrians did they or woulde they resist with armes but yeelded their liues with all submission though they wanted neither meanes nor multitude conuenient for any warres Phi. Howsoeuer that bee plaine it is that kinges that haue professed the fayth of Christ and the defence of his Church and Gospell may bee and haue beene iustly both excommunicated and deposed for iniuries done to Gods Church and reuolt from the same as sometimes also for other great crimes tending to the pernition of the whole people subiect vnto them Theo. You presume more in seuen lynes than you are able to prooue in seuen yeres That Popes haue attempted to depose Princes and for the perfourming of their enterprise haue shaken the Church with horrible schismes and wearied the worlde with slaughter and bloodshed wee knowe full wel you neede not vrge it But that they iustly did or might depose Princes which is the point we striue for though you affirme it to bee plaine wee denie it to bee true and therein the paune of your bare credit if you knew not so much before we take for no good euidence in this cause Phi. To speake specially of matter of religion and the crimes therevnto belonging Leo the third was excommunicated and depriued of all his temporalities in Italie by Gregorie the second For defect also in Religion and of the Churches defence were the Greeke Emperours discharged and the Empire translated to the Germanes by Pope Leo the third As afterward diuers German Emperors for notable iniuries doone to Gods Church for sacrilege and for heresie by godly discipline of the Church and by the diligence of sundrie Popes haue beene brought to order or in fine deposed or els where they would not obay Christs Vicar either in themselues or in their posteritie haue beene notoriously by God confounded As Frederick the first Fredericke the second Otho the first Lewes the third Lewes the fourth and whom we name last because we must say some thing more of him Henry the third or as some call him the fourth by Gregorie the seuenth which example the Libeller and other heretiques most mention for that the saide Henry so obstinatly resisted though otherwise by the inuincible courage and constancie of the Pope often brought to penance and extremitie that in fine by armes he draue the saide Pope out of his Sea and placed an Antipape that is to say one so opposite to Christs Vicar as Antichrist shall be against Christ which by armes and Patronage of this wicked Emperour vsurped and occupied the Apostolical throne against the true Pope Gregorie the seuenth whom the Libeller after the vulgar vaine of rebellious heretiques voutsafeth not the name of Gregorie the seuenth but calleth him commonly Hildebrand as the heretiques when they were in armes in Germanie against their Emperour would not name him Charles the fifth nor Emperour but Charles of Gaunt Theo. Finding no president for the Depriuation of Princes within the first sixe hundred yeeres after Christ you goe lower to get somewhat for your purpose and within the
next foure hundreth yeeres you name vs one that was not depriued of his Empire but denyed his reuenues in Italie by the rebellion of the souldiers and Citizens of Rome Rauenna Venice other places against him Phi. The Greeke and Latine writers doe consent that this was Gregories act Zonaras sayth Gregorie which then ruled the church of olde Rome refusing the fellowship of the Bishoppe of newe Rome of all that were of his opinion wrapped them together with the Emperour in a Synodical excōmunication and stayed the tribute which til that time was paied to the Empire and made a league with the Germanes Vrspergensis sayth Gregorie the Pope of Rome prohibited any tribute to bee giuen to the Emperour out of the Citie of Rome or out of Italie Frisingensis hath the like Gregorie the Pope warning the Emperour often tymes by letters and finding him incorrigible perswaded Italie to reuolt from his Empire And so Sigebert Gregorie reprooued Leo the Emperour for his error and turned both the people of Rome and the tribute of the West partes from him Moe I coulde bring you but these are enough Theo. You speake truer than you are ware of The rebellion of the Italiās against Leo the thirde was like enough to be Pope Gregories act For the Bishops of Rome were then Malcontentes to see the Bishops of Constantinople liue in such wealth ease and honor and themselues neglected by the Greeke Emperours and afflicted dayly by the Lumbardes And therefore I thinke they were forwarde enough to kindle the people against their Prince vppon the least occasion that might fall out And that may be the meaning of those Greeke and Germane writers which you bring that the Bishop of Rome occasioned or secretly incouraged the rebellion of Italie against Leo But that he tooke vpon him in those dayes to be the deposer of Princes as now he doeth or that he openly shewed or pleaded his vniuersall and supreme power to dispose kingdomes which is the thing that you shoulde proue that I denie and therein your owne stories as well the elder as the later sort of them that otherwise be very partial will iustifie my speech Diaconus aliue in those dayes saieth Leo the Emperour tooke the images of Sainctes at Constantinople and burnt them and commaunded the Bishop of Rome if euer he looked to haue his fauour to do the like But the Bishop refused to doe it and all the souldiers of Rauenna and Venice resisted this precept with one consent and but that the Bishop of Rome prohibited them so to doe they had attempted to make an other Emperour ouer them Regino that liued 200. yeres before Sigebert Frisingēsis Vrspergensis or Zonaras saith the same Blondus a diligent searcher and reporter of antiquities where partiall affection doth not blinde him saith The Emperour dealt by faire meanes at first with the Bishop of Rome if hee woulde haue his fauour to pull downe and burne the images in all places of Italy as he had done in the East Upon this precept of the Emperour first the citizens of Reuenna then the people and souldiers of Venice brake into an open rebellion against the Emperour and his deputie the exarch and laboured to the Bishop of Rome and to other cities of Italie to abrogate the Empire of Constantinople and to chose one of Italy or Rome for their Emperour and the rebellion went so farre that reiecting Magistrates which the exarch had appointed euerie citie and euery towne beganne then first since the inclination of the Romane Empire to create and elect Magistrates of their owne which they called Dukes But Stephen the Bishop of Rome repressed that attempt of the Italians to choose a new Emperour because he hoped Leo would vppon better aduise hereafter forbeare such enormities Yet the rebellion of the people of Rome and of other persons in Italie went forwarde and euerie day increased against the Emperour Nauclerus agreeth with Blondus saue that hee maketh Gregorie the seconde then Bishoppe of Rome when Blondus nameth Stephen Platina telleth his tale this way Leo the Emperour the thirde of that name when hee coulde not haue his will at the Bishop of Rome proposed an edict that all men vnder the Romane Empire shoulde take out of their Temples the images of all the holie Martyres and Angels for auoiding of idolatrie as hee sayde and who so did not hee woulde accompt him for an open enimie Gregorie the seconde not onely obeyed not but also warned all the Catholikes so your adherentes call themselues though they be nothing lesse than Catholikes that they shoulde not fall into that errour for any feare or precept of Prince By the which exhortation the people of Italie were so animated that they lacked verie little of chosing themselues an other Emperour but Gregorie interposed himselfe to staie them by his authoritie from doing it Sabellicus adding a thirde cause why the people of Rome and Italie were sore greeued with the Emperour and with-helde their tribute and not long after diuided the Empire which was the continuall impugning of them and preuailing against them by the Lombardes without any helpe from the Graecians Leo sayth he prayed the Bishop of Rome friendly that following his example he would raze the images of Saints out of al the temples in Italie Wherin the Bishop not only would not gratifie the Prince but wrote vnto al the churches that they should continue their most ancient custome That procured Leo passing hatred amongst other Nations but chiefly among the Italiās insomuch that the people of Rome began to consult of the choise of a new Emperour within Italie and the heartes of all Italie were ioyned with them in that attempt and that consent of theirs had broken foorth into an open defection had not the Bishop of Rome enterposed his authoritie and restrained the fiercenesse of his citizens by mollifieng them and admonishing them to persist in their former duetie to the Emperour when as that cōspiracie had alreadie so preuailed that Marinus the ruler of the citie his son the president of Campania being slain by the people the Exarch likewise murdered at Rauenna the cities commons had chosen for themselues new Magistrates Aeneas Syluius euen when hee was Pope Pius the seconde speaking oft his vprore made against Leo the thirde saieth To this rebellion the Bishoppe of Rome did not consent hoping that Leo would be better aduised If the report of other Writers be not sufficient the letters of Gregory the 2. Gregory the 3. wil witnesse no lesse the one writing in the 7. yeare of Leo the other in the 23. which was the last yeare of the raigne and life of Leo the 3. where they call him not onely Emperour but most religious Lord which could not bee if for his impietie they long before had forsaken his obedience as Zonaras the Monke imagineth Gregorie the 2. endeth his letters
were despised when they trauelled for peace Phi. But say no more than you wil proue Theo. Your owne friends shal heare me recorde that I doe not faine The griefe that Adrian the fourth conceiued againâ—â— Frederike the first the occasious therof though I might report out of Radeuicus that thâ—â— liued yet had I rather take them out of Adrians owne words in his epistle to Frederik which are these By the word of truth we are taught that euery one which exalteth himself shal be brought low Wherfore we maruel not a litle at your discretion that you giue not S. Peter the holy Church of Rome that reuerence which you ought For in your letters directed vnto vs you set your name before ours which is a note of presumption I will not say arrogancie What shal I speak of the fidelitie which you promised confirmed with an oth to S. Peter to vs in what sort you perform it when as you require homage exact fealty of them which be gods the sons of the most high euery one of them I meane the Bishops closing their haÌ„ds within yours wheÌ„ you receiue it setting your self against vs you shut not only the churches but the cities of your kingdom against the Cardinals that came froÌ„ our side Repent therefore repent we aduise you lest whiles you couet the thinges which you should not you loose that which you haue For the better discerning of the Popes ambitious enuious spirit you shall hear with what mildnes lenitie the prince made his answere Whatsoeuer regality your PopedoÌ„ hath you gat it by the gift of princes WhereupoÌ„ when we write to the Bishop of Rome by right by ancient vse we set our name first Looke your records if before you did not marke this which we say there you shall find it Of them whom you call gods I winne by adoption since they hold part of our regalities why should we not exact both homage and an oth of fealtie whereas our master yours holding nothing of any earthly king but bestowing all good things on all men paied tribute to Caesar for himselfe for Peter gaue you an example so to do saying Learne of me for I am meeke and humble in hart Let therefore your Bishops either restore vs our temporalities or if they finde them so profitable that they will not let them giue to God that which is Gods and to Cesar that which is Cesars due To your Cardinals our churches are shut our cities not open because we see them to be no Preachers but spoilers no makers of peace but snatchers of mony no reformers of meÌ„ but insatiable scrapers of gold WheÌ„ we shal see them to be such as the church needeth that is bringing peace lightning countries assisting the humble in equity we our selues wil not fail to appoint for them necessary prouisioÌ„ maintenaÌ„ce And to tel you truth you giue vs cause to suspect your humility meekenes which is the nource of al vertues when you quarel with temporall persons about these matters which make nothing to religioÌ„ We caÌ„ not choose but send you this answere when we see the detestable beast of pride to haue crept vnto Peters seate This reply though grouÌ„ded on nothing but manifest reason trueth did so sting the Pope his Cardinals that they ioyned in a generall conspiracy with WilliaÌ„ king of Scicily verie neere all the cities of Italy to crosse the Emperour to the vtmost of their powers and when the Pope died to choose none but one of the same faction that should continually pursue the Prince both with sedition and excommunication till they gate the vpper hande of him Iohannis Cremonensis a writer of that time saieth In this conspiracie the greater part of the Cardinals William king of Scicilie and almost all the cities of Italie bounde them-selues with many Barons and other greater men and a mighty masse of monie was giuen to Pope Adrian that hee shoulde excommunicate the Emperour And farther hee saieth hee learned of credible men of Millan and Brixia that were parties in this action that the conspiracie with Pope Adrian was so fastned with othes that none of them might leaue the rest or seeke the Emperours fauour without the consent of all and if the Pope departed this life they should choose a Cardinall of the same confederacie The reward which Adrian receiued at Gods hand as that writer sayth was this that A few daies after he had denounced his excommunication against the Emperor at Anagnia as he walked abroad to refresh himself came to a spring to tast of the water a flie by report entred his mouth and stucke so fast to his throate that by no helpe of Physitions it could be remoued til hee gaue vp the ghost Phi. Nauclerus you knowe doubteth of this storie because the Italian writers make no mention of it Theo. That is no reason to disproue the writer You know what Cuspinian a man of your owne side saith of your Italian stories in the liues of both the Frederikes Merula an Italian not knowing the thinges which Emperour Frederike did but as following Blondus or Platina doth fouly erre many times And againe The Italians as Blondus Platina both of one age complaine of the want of stories They disdayned to reade the chronicles of the Germanes the which because they sauored not of the Romane eloquence they reiected and missing in many pointes they affirm very often lies for truth Some of them offended with the whole Nation of Germanie call all the Germane Princes that were Emperors barbarians And to flatter their Popes they charge the Germane Princes with many moe vices than they had Want of other writers before them hatred of the Germans whose Princes often wasted Italie with fire and sword and a naturall desire to magnifie the Pope made the Italians disdaine to seeke the truth or to dissemble it when they saw it Phi. Did not the Germanes thinke you beare affection towardes their Princes and spite the Pope for accursing and impugning their Emperours Theo. I alleadge none but Priests Monks Abbats that were in the Popes danger and not in the Princes and such as otherwise did honour the Pope depend vppon his See saue when he offered so open wrong and violence that no Prince coulde indure it But we wade further than we neede Nauclerus doubteth whether AdriaÌ„ were choked with a flie but of the conspiracie which is the thing that I purposed neither hee nor you can doubt It was complained of by the Cardinals that refused their societie it was confessed by the citizens of Millan it was proued in the Councell of Pauia it was reported by letters both from the Prince from the * Bishop of Babenberge to Eberhard the Archbishop of Saltzburge it was verified by the sequele I mean by the wilful resistaÌ„ces which the coÌ„federat
to be subiect or free from the kinges power The people likewise tooke Ieremy when hee had prophesied against them and said thou shalt die the death These places haue perswaded some and might leade Zuinglius to think that the people of Israell notwithstanding they called for a king yet reserued to themselues sufficient authority to ouerrule their king in those thinges which seemed expedient needfull for the publike welfare else God would not punish the people for the kings impietie which they must suffer might not redresse But yet in the 15. of Ieremie there is no such cause pretended their consent rather and zeale to please Manasses in his wickednesse their generall shrinking back from truth so lately professed vnder Ezechias for feare of his cruelty that did next succeede were the causes why God would punish both the king and the Realme For God neuer required of the people to displace their Prince that we can reade but onely that they should rather yeeld their liues than forsake his truth when any tyrant offered to deface his glory Phi. By Zuinglius decision the people may depose the Prince Theo. Zuinglius doth shew the causes for which magistrats may be iustly deplaced by those that haue authoritie to doe it but hee giueth no priuate man leaue to take the sword or offer violence to any Prince though he be a tyrant againe he speaketh of Rulers elected and limited not succeeding and absolute In which ease by the Lawes of sundrie Realmes much is permitted which otherwise may not bee presumed Phi. Nay hee speaketh of all sortes of Princes whether they bee made by succession election or vsurpation Theo. In that Article hee mentioneth them but hee neither resolueth any certainetie of them or alloweth any force to bee vsed against them Of hereditarie succession these be his wordes Mihi ergo compertum non est vnde hoc sit vt regna per successiones quasi per manus posteris tradantur I confesse I haue no skill in this how kingdomes should be deriued to posterity by succession as it were by haÌ„d If then a tyrant chosen by no man get a kingdom by inheritance which hath his foundation I know not how ferre hunc oportet sed quomodo imperitabit he must be indured but how shall he gouern His answere is Regnum aliquo sapiente administranduÌ„ erit the kingdom must be gouerned by some wise maÌ„ that shal assist him If a tyrant succeeding may not be repelled from his inheritance but suffered and assâ—sted then by this confession may he not be deposed And that no violence may be vsed to any Prince promoted by succession or election his words are plaine Disputing quo pacto mouendus sit officio by what means a magistrat may be displaced he saith Non est vt eum trucides nec vt belluÌ„ tumultis quis exitet quia in pace vocauit nos Deus Thou maist not kil him nor leauie warre or any tumult against him because God hath called vs in peace Phi. How then shal he be displaced since no Prince will yeeld his crown without force Theo. He answereth hic iam labor est this is the difficulty but his coÌ„ceit is that they which chose him should denouÌ„ce him vnfit to weare the crown if he yeeld it is wel if not they must offer their liues in so good a cause as to dy for iustice truth Phi. In faith that were folly first to prouoke a tyraÌ„t with depriuatioÌ„ after to lay down their necks to his furie The. Yet that is his resolution for he addeth Qui hoc ferre noÌ„ possunt ferant insolenteÌ„ tyrannuÌ„ They that caÌ„ not abide to die for the defence of iustice let theÌ„ tolerate the pride of the tyraÌ„t Phi. Are you of that minde Theo. You are not to seeke after al our reasoning what I thinke I haue meetely well repeated it And as for Zuinglius though he measure all Nations by the Germanes proportion other kingdomes to the Empire in that respect speake somwhat strangely yet he iustifieth no tumult against a tyrant much lesse rebellion against lawfull and absolute Princes which is the case at this instant in question betwixt vs. That touching rebellion now for succession as I muse at his wordes so I like not his iudgement when he saith he can not tell whence it is that kingdoms should go by successioÌ„ The Romane Empire it self from Constantine the great and before till the time of Otho the third that is 700. yeares and vpward went by successioÌ„ saue where the right lines failed or seditioÌ„ disturbed the heire The greatest kingdomes of the West partes as Fraunce England Spaine Scotland and others haue alwayes gone by succession since they were diuided from the Empire and neuer by election The like I might say almost of all prophane kingdoms and Monarchies where not election but successioÌ„ hath preuailed But omit them God him selfe gaue this to Dauid as a great blessing of the fruit of thy body will I set vpon thy throne this was it which was denied to Saull for reuenge of his disobedience Thou hast done foolishly for the Lord had now established thy kingdom vpon Israel for euer All the recompence which Iehu had for his zealous seruice was this Because thou hast deligently executed that which was right in mine eies therefore shall thy sonnes vnto the fourth generation sit on the throne of Israell So that succession in kingdoms hath not only the consent of al ages Nations but the manifest subscription of God himself that it is his speciall fauor blessing to continue the successions of godly Princes Phi. And what our english Protestantes write or thinke of this matter you shal well perceiue by their opinion and high approbation of Wiats rebellion in Queene Maries dayes wherof one of your chiefe Ministers called GoodmaÌ„ thus speaketh in his treatise intituled How superiour Magistrates ought to be obeyed Wiat did but his duty and it was the duty of all others that professe the Gospell to haue risen with him maintenance of the same His cause was iust and they all were traytours that tooke not part with him O noble Wyat thou art nowe with God and those worthy men that died for that happie interprise Theo. It is much that you measure the whole Realme by one mans mouth and more that you drawe the wordes which he spake from the meaning which he had to warrant your rebellions The partie which you name at the time wheÌ„ he wrote tooke Queene Mary for no lawful Prince which particular and false supposal beguiled him made him thinke the better of Wyats war but our question is of lawful Princes not of violent intruders And therefore Goodmans opinion which himselfe hath long since disliked is no way seruice-able for your seditions Ph. Hold you Queene Mary for an intruder Theo. Not I but he
he giueth vs cause enough to resist him with good conscience The matter standing as it doth we may resist as may be shewed both by sacred and profane stories Vniust violence is not Gods ordināce neither are we bound to him by any other reason than if he keep the conditions on which he was created Emperour The same defence was alleaged not by the ministers but by the magistrats of Magdeburg So our religiō liberty left vs by our forefathers may be permitted we refuse no kind of duty that ought to be yelded to Caesar or the empire Now by the lawes thēselues it is prouided that the inferior Magistrate shall not infringe the right of the superior so likewise if the magistrate exceed the limittes of his power cōmmaund that which is wicked not onely wee neede not obey him but if he offer force wee may resist him I aske not what fault you can find with their answere but what propinquity or neernes hath your fact to theirs They were magistrates and bare the sword in their own dominions you are priuat men wāt lawful autority to vse the sword Their states be free may resist any wrōg by the lawes of the Empire you be subiects simply bound by the lawes of your coūtry to obey the prince or abide the pain which the publike state of this realm hath prefixed The germane Emperor is elected his power abated by the liberties prerogatiues of his princes that ow not many seruices those cōdicional The Queene of England inheriteth hath one the same right ouer all her subiects be they Nobles or others And that which is most to be detested in you they hauing so good warrāt for their interprise did but ioin togither to saue thēselues their coūtries from seruitude subuersion you hauing nor one of those reasōs to iustify your doings take arms to pul the prince frō her throne to shorten her dayes with violence Phi. We haue better reason for our doings than the Germans had for theirs We haue the lawes of holy church the iudgemēt of Christs vicar to bear vs out Theo. The church of christ hath not to do with deliuering or drawing the tēporal sword She cānot make lawes for princes crowns neither cā she licence priuate men to stād in armes against a Magistrat much lesse cā the Pope whose presumptuus proud medling with the swords scepters of earthly princes no law gods nor mans but of his own making did euer alow If this be al the warrant you haue for bearing arms against your prince the Germans for ought y◠I see may be commēded for retaining their liberty you not excused for impugning autority Phi. The Protestantes of al sects do both hold practise it England it selfe specially alowing of the same And therfore there is no treason in this case if we folow the present diuinity of Englād nor new exāple if we respect the furious attēpts rebelliōs of Scotland Flāders Frāce Germany against their superiors for maintenāce of their heresie al wel alowed by the ministery of euery prouince And vpō these exāples you shold look my masters of Englād whē you make so much adoe for one poore cōmotion made in defence of the catholiks in 26. yeares space of the greatest persecution tribulatiō that euer was since Gothes Vādals times Where if the Q. had holden her ancestors faith had ruled ouer so many protestāts but a quarter of the time afflicting thē as she hath done catholiks though perhaps not her selfe so much as her vnmerciful Ministers her Maiestie should haue seene other maner of attempts against her state and quietnesse than haue fallen by Catholikes either in England or Ireland in this her raigne Theo. A boulde face a bitter tongue bee your best obiections throughout your booke The Protestants you say of al sects do both hold practise it England it selfe specially allowing of the same How loud a ly the first is we haue already seen now to the rest The tumults of any subiects against their soueraignes as we do not alow so may we not cōdemn the poore afflicted christians our neighbors before we heare them what they can say for their defence Admit thē to their answere then if their attempts be like yours or themselues of the same minde that you are we reiect their doings as hateful before God man no lesse than yours Your Spanish inquisitions French massacres where you murdered men women children by 1000. 10000. against the very grounds of al equity piety charity humanity without cōuicting accusing or so much as calling them before any iudge to heare what was misliked in them are able to set graue men good men at their wits ends to make them iustly dout since you refuse the course of all diuine humane lawes with them whether by the law of nature they may not defend themselues against such barbarous bloodsuckers yet we stand not on that if the lawes of the land where they conuerse do not permit thē to gard their liues when they are assaulted with vniust force against law or if they take arms as you do to depose princes we wil neuer excuse thē frō rebelliō Phi. Then they may resist but we may not Theo. Your liues are not hunted after for religiō as theirs be nothing is attēpted against you wtout due course and triall of law towardes them no law is obserued no punishment is laide on you but by the full consent of the Nobles and Commons of this realme that openly decreed in Parliament The Friers presume to put them to death vpon his sole authority that hath naught to doe with other mens subiectes you meane to depriue Princes they seeke no farther but to defende themselues not denying to their princes any tribute subiectiō or honor which the lawes of their Countrie require onely they will not haue the Pope ouerrule Princes as his maner is and tease them on to all kinde of tyrannyes These bee differences enough betweene your warres and theirs and yet for my part I must confesse that except the lawes of those Realmes doe permit the people to stand on their right if the Prince would offer that wrong I dare not allow their armes Phi. What their Lawes permit I know not I am sure in the meane time they resist Theo. And wee because wee doe not exactly know what their Lawes permit see no reason to condemne their doinges without hearing their answere Phi. Thinke you their Lawes permit them to rebell Theo. I busie not my selfe in other mens common-wealthes as you doe neither will I rashly pronounce all that resist to bee rebels cases may fall out euen in christian kingdoms where the people may plead their right against the Prince and not bee charged with rebellion Phi. As when for example Theo. If a Prince shoulde goe about
a matter of more dependence than may bee ouer-ruled with a fewe piked and well couched tearmes You must therefore exactly and directly prooue the Popes authoritie to depose Princes which you shall neuer bee able to doe or else hee for attempting it is the man of sinne exalting him-selfe in the Church of GOD and you for defending and executing the same lacke not many degrees of high and haynous treason The carying of this in your owne heartes and reconciling of others within the realme that they might bee readie to receiue this impression at your mouthes when tyme should serue were the very causes why some of your fellowes tasted of her maiesties iust and prouoked indignation and if it be tyrannie for the Prince to put them to death that lay plottes to haue her crowne and her life and write bookes to auouch it lawful for themselues and all others so to doe when the Pope sayth the word then her highnes hath done you some wrong but if by diuine and humane recordes it bee damnable in the subiect to attempt or abet any such thing and most laudable in the Prince to reuenge the consenter and encourager as well as the doer then for religion hath none of your side beene martyred in England as your shamelesse eloquence would enforce onely some were executed for affirming publishing and furdering the Popes Antichristian power to rule realmes and depriue Princes which you call religion because you would plant it in the peoples hearts with lesse labour and more liking though in deede it be pestilent pride in him and a plaine contempt of God and the Prince in you that should obey Phi. M. Iohn Slade and M. Iohn Body two famous confessours were they not condemned to death in publike iudgement for confessing their fayth of the Popes spiritual soueraigntie and for denying the Queene to bee head of the Church of England or to haue any spirituall regiment and that twise at two diuers sessions a rare case in our countrie the later sentence being to refourme the former as we may gesse in such strange proceedings which they perceiued to bee erroneous and vnsufficient in their owne Lawes Theo. Promotions are rife at Rome you would not else so soone aduance two frowarde and rude companions for masters martyrs Their iudgement was twise giuen not as you peruersly yet after your manner interprete the later to reforme the former as erroneous and vnsufficient but for that they complayned they were drawen afore they were ware and against their wils to vtter speaches against the Princes sworde for which they were condemned the grace mercie of the Prince was such that her highnesse was content they should bee tried the seconde tyme to see whether those words were vnaduisedly and vnwillingly spoken as they pretended or of set mischiefe malice and warned by the Iudge to take good heede and looke wel about thē before they rashly offered themselues to the danger of the Lawes Where if they fell againe openly and lustily to auouch that the Pope was supreme head of the Church of England and consequently the Queene had no right to make lawes as shee had doone but was subiect to the Popes Decrees and censures which is the maine ground of all your rebellion and his presumption who besides you that are yoked in the same cause with them will say they died for religion and not rather for their wilful charging the Prince with vsurpation yeelding the Pope that dominion which hee claimeth ouer kingdomes and you would faine establish with your vntrue surmises Phi. The question of Peters keyes is it not a matter of meere religion Theo. If you draw Princes crownes and swordes within the limits of Peters keyes you leaue religion and hatch rebellion Phi. Yet is it a question whereof diuines do doubt Theo. You may doubt what you list to flatter the Pope but your doubting may not stoppe Princes from defending that which is their owne against the Popes vniust claime and vnlawfull force The Prince striueth not with the Pope neither for the dignitie which hee taketh aboue all Bishoppes nor for the power which hee seeketh to bind and loose sinnes in heauen though therein hee doeth the Church of Christ great wrong and oppresseth his brethren but onely for her right to commaund and punish within her own Realme in ecclesiasticall causes and crimes as well as in temporall which I haue largely prooued euery Prince may within his owne Dominion and for the wrong that her maiestie receiued when shee was depriued of her crowne by him that had no warrant from Christ to disquiet her state or dispose her crown These bee the pointes comprised in her highnes Lawes Against these if your rash and ill aduised brethren woulde runne headlong to their owne perdition when they were admonished by the magistrate to haue better regarde to their wordes they haue the iust rewarde of their vnfaythfull and disloyall heartes and my assertion is true that these two ignorant yet obstinate persons with some others which came not to any particular mention of the Popes bull against the Prince but generally stoode in defence of that power to be good and lawfull from whence the bull proceeded died in the same quarell with the rest that purposely promoted defended and assisted the bull and so can bee no witnesses of Christes trueth and glory which woulde needes cast away their liues for the Popes pride and tyrannie Phi. It is hard dealing to make such trifles treasons Theo. Call you those trifles when Princes shall lose their kingdomes and their people freely rebell and you defende the warres of their owne subiects against them to be iust and honourable by vertue of that power which you attribute to the Pope when you make him head of the Church Had you liued in Saint Augustines dayes you would haue sayde it had beene harder dealing that one word against the Christian Emperours although they were dead shoulde be counted treason Thou doest promise sayth Augustine to Petilian that thou wilt reckon many of our Emperours and iudges WHICH BY PERSECVTING YOV PERISHED and concealing the Emperours thou meanest two Iudges or Deputies Why didst thou not name the Emperours of our cōmunion were thou afraid to bee accused as guiltie OF TREASON where is your courage which feare not to kill your selues To say that Emperours PERISHED FOR PERSECVTING was Treason in his tyme In our age you thinke it much that reproching of Princes as tyrants and heretikes ayding the Pope with your perswasions absolutions rebellions to take their crownes from them should be punished or adiudged Treason Phi. There is no law so rigorous but your diuinitie wil serue you to defend it Theo. What is against your duetie to God and your Prince in that I am a diuine I may iustly debate what punishment the Prince will appoint for such offences as be committed against her neither you nor I haue to doe with it
as you affirme you may but with reuerence and humilitie serue God before the Prince and that is nothing against our oth Phi. Then is not the Prince supreme Theo. Why so Phi. Your selues are superiour when you will serue whom you list Theo. As though to serue God according to his will were to serue whom we list and not whom Princes and all others ought to serue Phi. But you will be iudges when God is well serued and when not Theo. If you can excuse vs before God when you mislead vs we wil serue him as you shall appoint vs otherwise if euerie man shal answere for himselfe good reason he be master of his owne conscience in that which toucheth him so neere and no man shall excuse him for Phi. This is to make euery priuate man supreme iudge of religion Theo. The poorest wretch that is may be supreme Gouernour of his owne hart Princes rule the publike and external actions of their Countries but not the consciences of men and therefure this thwartling is to no purpose Phi. By what authoritie then in the first Parliament of the Queenes highnesse raigne was the determination decision and definition of truethes or of heresies and errors of the true worship of God and the false attributed to that Court of the states no lesse or rather more than to the foure first or any other general Councel to which the deciding of such things is there granted with this limitation so far as they can warrant their doings by the expresse wordes of Canonical Scriptures and no farther but to the Parliament absolutely decreeing at the same time that nothing there determined should be counted heresie errour or schisme what order decree sentence constitution or law so euer were to the contrarie the holy Scriptures themselues not excepted Theo. It is no wonder to see you quarel with the court of the Sates that are so busie with the Princes Crowne And therein as in the former your behauiour doth not change For entring with a manifest vntrueth and keeping on a course of emptie and haughtie wordes which is your glorie you tell vs at length with pride enough that our Lawes be strange and vnnatural dealings proceedings dishonourable to her MAIESTIE and the Realme against Gods expresse commaundement lymiting his constant and permanent trueth to mortall mens willes and fancies violent disorders which to all our posteritie must needes breede shame and rebuke vniust and therefore bind not in conscience repugnant to the dignitie and priuiledges of the Church against the oth of the makers and in deed no Lawes at all the makers lacking competent power authoritie and iurisdiction to proceed iudicially and authentically to heare determine and define 〈◊〉 giue sentence in any such things as be meere ecclesiasticall with a number of those bold and stately bragges hauing neither proofe of your part nor reproofe of ours but only pretending certain legalities quiddities solemnities of humane iudgements which in Gods cause be very ridiculous and in matters of faith more than superfluous For God will not haue his trueth depend either on the numbers or qualities of persons and when his word is offered we may not stand staggering till the Pope and his Cardinals please to assemble and there iudicially and authentically heare and determine what they thinke good which I winne they wil neuer against themselues Christ sent not iudges with iudicial processe but a few disciples with the sound of their voices to conuert the world the Prophetes that taught the people of God and reproued both Priests and Princes vsed no legall nor authenticall proceedings but a bare proposing the will of God to such as woulde beleeue The Kings and Princes before Christ that subuerted Idols and refourmed religion in their realmes relyed on their Princely Power and zeale for the doing of that seruice and not on the ceremoniall and sententiall acts and decrees of Priests or Prophets The Christian Princes take which you will that first receiued and after restored the faith in their Empires and kingdomes tied not them selues to the voices and suffrages of the Clergie that were in present possession of their Churches but often times remoued them without Councel or common consultation You may do well to correct S. Paul where he saith faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God and to adde faith commeth by iudiciall cognition and competent iurisdiction of such as haue legall meanes to deliberate and pronounce of God and his trueth Phi. Would you haue such disorder and confusion suffered in the Church that euery man should follow what he list Theo. I would not haue such presumption or wickednesse brought into the Church that Christ or his worde should be subiected to the wils or voices of mortall men for though the whole world pronounce against him or it God wil be true and all men shall be liars Phi. No more would wee Theo. Why then restraine you trueth to the assemblees and sentences of Popes and Prelats as though they must bee gently entreated and fayrely offered by Christ before he might attempt or shoulde expect to recouer his owne Phi. Wee would haue things done orderly Theo. Call you that order where Christ shall stand without doores till your Clergie consent t◠bring him in Phi. God is not the author of confusion but of peace Theo. It is no confusion for one familie yea for one man to serue God though all the families and men of the same realme besides will not Ioshua sayd to the whole people If it seeme euill vnto you to serue the Lorde choose you this day whome you will serue but I and myne house will serue the Lorde Elias was left alone for any that he sawe willing to serue God in Israel and yet that abated not his zeale Micheas alone opposed him-selfe against foure hundreth Prophetes with what iudiciall authoritie can you tell Ieremie assured the Priests and Prophetes of Ierusalem that God would forsake them and that hee did without any legall meanes that wee can read Amos spared neither Ieroboam the King nor Amaziah the Priest and yet he was but a simple heardman and not so much as the sonne of a Prophet Iohn Baptist had no competent iurisdiction ouer the Scribes and Pharisees that sate in Moses chayre and yet hee condemned them for a generation of vipers The Councels where Peter Steuen Paul and other of the Disciples were conuented accused and punished lacked none of your iudiciall formalities and solemnities and yet the Apostles stoutly resisted and vtterly contemned both their deliberatiue and their definitiue sentences In deede your forefathers assaulted our Sauiour him-selfe with that very question as also they did Iohn before him and the Apostles after him When the Lord was teaching in the temple the chiefe Priestes and the elders of the people came vnto him and sayde by what authoritie doest
Athanasius writing Theo. By this let the world iudge both of your cause and cunning A thing bone by the confession of your owne stories aboue 760. yeares after Christ vnder Constantine the 5. not long before the seconde Nicene councell is coloured with Athanasius name as written by him that was deade 400. yeares before the matter happened and not onely published with his writinges but inserted into the second Nicene councell as his worke whereas the Bishops then assembled were all aliue when this outrage was attempted by the Iewes not 24. yeares before the calling of that Synode Such fables and forgeries doe well become the quarell you haue in hand but they wil neuer proue your hauing of images to be catholike or Apostolike Phi. In deede our stories doe mention such an accident at the time which you name but if it be true though it be not so old as Athanasius we care not Theo. He that wil forge must not stick to ly lying is the very ground of forging and of a lyar we looke for no truth And yet this tale of Nicodemus Gamaliel Iames Simeon and Zacheus deliuering an image from hand to hand is not the assâ—rtioÌ„ of the author but the rude report of a poore ignorant man fathering his image on them that neuer were christians as Gamaliel was not and that 700. yeares after their deathes without any proofe saue onely by hearesay By such legends you may soone proue what you will but he that hath any spark of christian courage or wisedom will vtterly abhor these lies as feeling the grosnesse of them with his fingers Phi. Since you so much dislike our proofes that the Apostles and the Primatiue church had images can you proue they had none Theo. Doth your discretion serue you to put vs to proue the negatiue Ph. You affirm they had none our demaund is how you know that Theo. You can not proue they had and that is cause sufficient for vs to auouch they had not Phi. Is that all you can say Theo. If it were you can not voide it but we haue euident proofes that the church of Christ succeeding the Apostles had none and thence we conclude the Apostles deliuered none otherwise the church would not so soone haue reiected the tradition of the Apostles Phi. You may be sure they would not Theo. And since they did reiect Images ergo it was no Apostolike tradition Phil. Howe proue you they did reiect them Theo. The christians were charged by the Pagans for hauing no images and they not onely confessed so much but also defended it as most agreeable with the law of God In Arnobius the heathen say of the christians Cur nullas aras habent nulla tenepla nulla nota simulachra why haue they no altars no temples no open or knowen images In Origen Celsus sayth Hij non patiuntur vel templa vel aras vel simâ—lachra statuas intueri The christians can not abide to beholde temples or altars or images In making their answere the Christians agnised they had none and alleadged the law of God to proue they should haue none ClemeÌ„s sayth Nobis non est imago sensilis de materia sensili sed quae percipitur intelligentia We haue no image that is materiall and seene with eyes but onely such as is conceiued with vnderstanding And addeth this reason We are plainely forbidden to vse that deceitfull art of making images Thou shalt not make saith the Prophet the likenesse of any thing The Christians and Iewes saith Origen when they heare the lawe of God thou shalt not make to thy selâ—e any grauen image nor the likenesse of any thing neither shalt thou bowe downe to them nor serue them not only refuse these teÌ„ples Altars images of God but if neede be choose rather to dy And extending this as well to the image of the true God as of those that were no gods he sayth Nec simulachra quidem nos veneramur quippe qui Dei vt inuisibilis ita incorporei formam nullam effigiamus We reuerence not images as making no figure to God who is inuisible and without all bodily shape So Arnobius What image shall I make to God whose image if you rightfully iudge man himselfe is And Lactantius as you hearde before affirmed There coulde bee no religion wheresoeuer there was an image Phi. These spake not of the christian images but of the Pagans such as in deede we may neither worship nor haue Theo. They speake namely of themselues which were christians confessing they neither had nor might haue any image of God Phi. Not of the Godhead but of Christ his Saincts they might notwithstanding these words it is euident by Eusebius they had For the woman that was cured by Christ of the bloody issue erected an image of brasse vnto him in Cesaria where she dwelt vnder the feete of which image grewe a strange herbe healing all diseases as soone as it touched the brasen skirt of his garmeÌ„t This image remained togither with the herbe to the time of Eusebius after till Iulian the Apostata in spite of Christ brake it in peeces set vppe his own image in place thereof which God strake with fire from heauen in reuenge of his sonne so dishonored by Iulian threw the head of Iulians image from the body pitching it with the face downward into the earth blasting the rest with lightning for a terror to all that euer after should offer the image of his Sonne any reproach or misuse as you may read in Sozomene And this example is a faire warning for you that haue beheaded burned so many images of Christ his Sainctes within this Realme Theo. This image the woman that was healed erected in the citie where she dwelt as a monument of the mighty power which our Sauiour had shewed on her she being then an heathen not instructed in religion thinking thereby to prouoke others to harken after him seek for his help as she had done And when many trusted not her words it pleased God not only to ratify her report as true but to shewe the Gentiles by the wonderfull euent of the herbe there growing what vertue was in his sonne to cure all their griefs thereby to lead them the rather to beleeue in him that they might be saued by him In this wee dispraise not the womans purpose minding to celebrate the benefit which shee receiued at our Sauiours handes the best way that she then knew we honor the goodnes of God in preparing the hearts of vnbeleeuers by meanes of this miracle to bee ready to imbrace his Sonne detesting the wickednes of Iulian that to discouer his contempt of Christ and malice against Christ whose faith he had openly reâ—ounced amongst other villanies which hee offered caused the Pagans in a triumph to draw this image about the streetes breaking it in
Father and the Sonne to proceede both from the Father and the Sonne For the Sonne saith when the spirit of trueth coÌ„meth which proceedeth from the father Where he teacheth vs the spirit to be his also because himselfe is trueth And that the holy ghost proceedeth likewise from the sonne the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles doeth deliuer vnto vs. For Esay sayth of the sonne Hee shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the spirit of his lippes he shal slea the wicked Of whom the Apostle also sayth Whom the Lord Iesus shall slea with the spirit of his mouth Whome the onely Sonne of God declaring to bee the Spirite of his mouth breathing on his Disciples after his resurrection sayth receiue ye the holy Ghost And Iohn in his Reuelation sayth that out of the mouth of the Lorde Iesu him-selfe there proceeded a sharpe two edged swoorde Hee therefore is the Spirit of his mouth hee is the sword which proceedeth out of his mouth And againe By many testimonies of the diuine Scriptures it is prooued that he is the spirite of the father and the sonne which is properly called in the Trinitie the holy ghost And that he proceedeth from both it is thus proued because the sonne himselfe saith the spirit of trueth proceedeth from the father And when he was risen from death and appeared to his disciples he breathed on them and sayd Receiue ye the holy ghost to shewe that the spirit proceeded from him also And that spirit is the vertue which came from him as we read in the gospel and healed all men What you thinke of these places we know not but sure we are S. Augustine himselfe sayth of these the like Cum per Scripturarum sanctarum testimonia docuissem de vtroque procedere Spiritum sanctum When I had shewed by the testimonies of the Holy scriptures that the holy ghost proceedeth froÌ„ both the father the sonne And if it bee the naturall and distinct proprietie of the Spirite to proceede as it is of the sonne to bee begotten which I winne you will not denie then is it as euident by the Scriptures that the holy Ghost proceedeth from the Father and the sonne as it is that the sonne was begotten of the father For as the second person in Trinitie was begotten of him whose sonne hee is so the thirde Person proceeded from them whose spirite hee is but hee is the Spirite of them both as the Scriptures expressely witnes Ergo hee proceeded from them both Phi. The doctrine is true but the scripture is not expresse Theo. What meane you by your expresse scripture Phi. Those very woordes He proceedeth from them both are not found in the scriptures Theo. Alas good Sirs is that your quarrell Doe the scriptures I pray you consist in spelling or in vnderstanding Neuer read you what S. Hierom sayth Nec putemus in verbis ScripturaruÌ„ Euangelium esse sed in sensu non in superficie sed in medulla non in sermonum folijs sed in radice rationis Let vs not thinke the Gospell to lie in the words of the scriptures but in the sense not in the rind but in the pith not in the leaues of speech but in the ground of reason truth If by expresse scripture you meane the plaine 〈◊〉 sense of the word of God we haue euident infallible proofes thence for the proceeding of the holy ghost from the father the sonne But if you sticke on the syllables letters which we speake you doe but wrangle with vs as the Arias did with the Nicene fathers Expostulating why the Bishops that met at Nice vsed these words substance consubstaÌ„tial which were nowhere found in the Scriptures our answere to you shal be the same that theirs was to them These words though they be not found in the Scriptures yet haue they the same meaning and sense which the Scriptures containe And that we count to be expresse scripture For otherwise as Hilarie saith Al heretiks speake Scriptures without sense the diuell himself as Hierom noâ—eth hath spoken some things out of the scriptures but that as they both witnes in the very next words The scriptures coÌ„sist not in reading but in vnderstanding And yet I see no cause why this point should be denied to be expresse Scripture for so much as S. Iohn describing the son of God with a sharpe two edged â—word proceeding out of his mouth which is the rod of his mouth wherewith he shal smite the earth the spirit of his lips wherewith hee shall slea the wicked as Esay prophesied hee should and Paul declareth hee would vseth the very same word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 twise which our Sauior before spake of his father 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the spirit which proceedeth froÌ„ the father So that you were fouly ouerseene when you obiected this point of our christian faith as wanting expresse scripture Phi. If you take not only the words but also the sense â—or scripture we will not greatly gainesay but all points of faith may be deriued out of these words or out of the sense of that which is written The. Deriued as you do pardoÌ„s pilgrimages penaÌ„ces purgatory But we say that al points of faith must be plainly concluded or necessarily collected by that which is writteÌ„ And for our so saying we haue not only the scriptures fathers but also your selues which being so often required vrged to shewe what one point of faith the primatiue church of Christ beleeued wtout the scriptures could neuer shew any Phi. We could shew many if that needed we wer disposed The. I know not what accoÌ„pt you make of it but to our simple conceiuing it is the groundwork of al religioÌ„ crazeth the very heart of your vnwritten verities And if to satisfie the people of God disburden your selues of an errour you be not all this while disposed to doe what you can we must leaue you for curious and daintie men and thinke you can not Phi. Tertullian was of that minde that we are when he willed the christians not to appeale to the scriptures for the triall of their faith His words are Ergo non est ad scripturas prouocandum nec in ijs constituendum certamen in quibus aut nulla aut incerta victoria est We must therefore not appeale to the Scriptures nor place the trial of our cause in those writings in which the victorie is either none or not sure Theo. You do both the truth and Tertullian wrong TertulliaÌ„ doth not say that in matters of faith some things should be beleeued wtout the Scriptures no man is flatter against that than Tertullian in this very booke which you bring but he would not haue the heretikes of his time chalenged nor brought to the Scriptures because they receiued not the books as
of Iewes and Gentiles Phi. In S. Paul Theophil I see no such thing Philand You wil not for feare you should be driuen to confesse that S. Paul calleth our host a Sacrifice Theo. Let vs then examine S. Pauls purpose that we may see both what he saieth and to what end he saith it The christians at Corinth in respect of aquaintaunce or alliaunce with others that were Heathens in that citie did not sticke if they were inuited to goe to the banquetes and feastes of the Pagans which they kept in the Temples of their Gods when they did sacrifice vnto them and at which they spent such cates and wines as they had then offered to their Idols The preteÌ„ce which the christians had for their resorting to the Pagans feastes was this that they knewe the idoll was nothing and therefore giuing thankes to God for his creatures they did eate of all things without scruple of conscience howsoeuer it had beene vsed or to whomsoeuer it had beene offered This Sainct Paul reproueth them for and sheweth that though the Idoll in it selfe bee nothing yet since the Gentiles did offer those thinges which were at their idols feastes not to God but to diuels the christians could not sit at the same tables with the Pagans reioycing triumphing and feasting in the names of their idolles but they must needes bee partakers of their idolatrie Nowe howe that could stand with their comming to the Lords table where they professed to serue him and none but him hee wisheth them to consider The reason which hee draweth from the Lordes table you call it a comparison point by point in all effectes conditions and proprieties to the altars hostes and sacrifices of the Heathen may bee eyther a comparison or an opposition but liker of the twaine to bee rather an opposition than a comparison For so Sainct Paul knitteth vp his argument You can not drink both the Lordes cup and the cup of diuelles you can not bee partakers or eate of the Lords table and of the table of diuels The one you are partakers of as you know For the cup of thanksgiuing which we blesse is it not the coÌ„munion or participatioÌ„ of Christs blood The bread which we breake is it not the communion of Christs body You cannot there fore haue any fellowship with the table or cup of diuels but God will surely reuenge it as the forsaking of himselfe and seruing of his enimie This may the whole drift of S. Paul stand good and his reason forcible without your point by point or your effectes conditions and proprieties of altars hostes or Sacrifices If any list to make it a comparison he may for me yet that way I see no cause why you should so proportion Christes mysteries to the diuels sacrifices that point by point they must answere one an other in all effectes conditions and proprieties of Altars hostes and immolations For this sufficeth S. Pauls inteâ—t that where the christians thought it a matter indifferent and lawfull to eate drink in the temples and at the tables of Heathen Idols he by examples both of christian and Iewish religion sheweth them that though they did not sacrifice and so tooke themselues to be free from Idolatrie yet seeing they reioyced and feasted with the men and meates that were addicted and consecrated vnto Idols they were partakers of their wickednesse And therefore the thing which S. Paul vrgeth in this comparison of Christian Iewish and heathâ—nish religion is not offering or sacrificing but in plaine words eating drinking at the same table with men of any profession where their rites and ceremonies be they good or bad are vsed as well as their offeringes and immolations and in that sense the conclusion holdeth on either side though the thinges be not really sacrificed vnto God or the diuell but dedicated or consecrated to either of them or frequented in either of their names For as he that eateth and drinketh at the Lordes table partaketh with him and his so he that doth the like at the diuels table linketh himselfe in the like fellowship with the diuell and his adherentes though the meates that are set on the table bee not first solemnly sacrificed to the diuell but blessed either in his name or with his ceremonies who being a wicked spirit affecteth to be honored in like sort and equal â—tate with the true and mighty God Phi. S. Paul sayth the Gentiles did sacrifice their meates to the diuel Theo. So much the worse for those Christians that did eat them yet that doeth not inferre that the creatures at the Lords table were point by point in all effects and conditions vsed and sacrificed to him as the heathens cates were to their Idoles And to draw your argument from the diuels table to proue that the bread and wine at the Lordes table be sacrificed is a strange kinde of diuinitie if it bee not worse Certainly not the sacrifice but the Sacrament ordained by Christ to be taken and eaten from his table doeth make vs members of Christ and ioyneth vs all in one fellowship of his mysticall body the Priestes sacificing of Christes flesh doth not helpe the matter for ought that we know or you proue but by such sleeuelesse I wil not say witlesse conceites as these be And yet your owne comparison ouerthroweth your owne oblation For if in Pagan Iewish and euen in Christian religion as you say they which eate of the Sacrifice be partakers of the sacrifice we infer that in your priuate masses where the Priest alone â—ateth and no man eateth with him the people haue no part in that sacrifice so your oblation if it be any auaileth no man but your selues because no man eateth of it besides your selues which is more against your profit than the name of sacrifice would do you good if you could â—uince it by S. Paul Phi. God helpe you masters ye be so addicted to the bellie that you thinke of nothing â—ut of eating drinking The sacrifice you admit not the sacrameÌ„t you adore not but if you may eate and drinke then are you safe Theo. This diuinity will better become the diuels table whence you lately fet your sacrifice than the Lordes sacramentes or the seruauntes of Christ. To eate drinke at his table is not our inuention but his institution and therefore no point of gluttonie as you leuâ—ly surmise but of pietie which you skant beleeue as appeareth by your abolishing that order which Christ left and deuising an other of your owne without any warrant from him For where Christ said take ye eate ye you like not that but haue chaunged it into Looke ye adore ye telling the people they do God good seruice when they giue his diuine honour to dead â—â—slesse creatures Phi. No Sir we teach them to adore Christ and not the creatures of bread and wine Theo. You first imagine the creatures to be
is fiâ—lie prepared with faith and repentance to receiue and lodge so worthie a ghost Phil. The Sacrament is turned into the reall and naturall flesh of Christ and so are not we Theoph. If that were true when the Sacrament is turned by naturall digestion into the nourishment of our bodies the flesh and blood of Christ must likewise be conuerted into the substance of our bodies but that is so blasphemous and impious that you dare not abide it and therefore Christ entereth not our mouthes when he commeth vnder our roofe but possesseth our soules replenisheth them with his heauenlie presence power of grace and life neither must we saie to the Sacrament Lord I am not worthie since that is an earthlie and corruptible creature but to Christ himselfe who hath promised in his Gospell that he and his father wil come and dwel with vs and perfourmeth the same by the hearing of his worde and receiuing of his Sacraments by which meanes he commeth and dwelleth in our harts by faith as S. Paul affirmeth and not in our mouthes or bellies by anie local and reall comprehension as you imagine Phi. Wee doe not deny that Christ commeth by his worde vnto vs but the Sacraments haue a speciall presence of his which the worde hath not Theo. The sacraments take their force onely and wholy from the worde neither is the worde anie whit the stronger or better for the visible signes but our weaknes is staied and supported by them and they endued with power and vertue by the worde to sanctifie the receiuer where it is beleeued And therefore Christ commeth and dwelleth in vs as truely by his worde as by his sacraments and if you compare them more truely by his worde than by the signes and seales of his worde Phi. We eate his flesh and drink his blood in the sacrament in the word we do not Theo. We eate his flesh drinke his blood more truely in the word than in the Sacramental and mystical signes S. Hierom saith Ego corpus Iesu Euangelium puto quando dicit qui non commederit carnem meam biberit sanguinem meum licet in mysterio possit intelligi tamen verius corpus Christi sanguis eius sermo Scripturarum est The body of Iesus I think to be the Gospel when he saith he that doth not eate my flesh and drinke my blood though this maie be vnderstood of the Sacrament yet the worde of the Scriptures is more truely the bodie and blood of Christ. S. Austen saith Beleeue and thou hast eaten to beleeue in him is to eate the liuelie bread and that he calleth of the twaine the truer kinde of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ. For repeating these woordes of our sauiour he that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me and I in him he saith Ostendit quid sit non Sacramento tenus sed reuera coâ—pus Christi manducare Christ sheweth what it is to eate his flesh not by way of a Sacrament but in deede or truely So that the flesh and blood of Christ are MORE TRVELY in the members and words of Christ than in the Sacraments and yet your selues teache no man to say to the Preacher or the Scriptures Lorde I am not woorthie Phi. Chrysostome in his Masse sayde the very same woordes to the Sacrament Theo. Howe knowe you what hee sayde that died so long before you Phi. You shall find them in his Liturgie Theo. Well we may hereafter when you haue put them in but as yet we find no such wordes at all in his Liturgie Phi. The Greeke exemplar hath them Theo. Not those which either Erasmus or Leo Thuscus had when they translated it into Latin if you haue gotten new copies contrarie to the olde reason is you publish them and prooue the credits of them before we regard them Phi. So we will Theo. And with all you must shew that hee speaketh these wordes to the Sacrament otherwise they conclude nothing for you no more than Origens words did in the like case when he taught men to say them to Christ at the sacred communion Phi. That is your euasion for both Origen and S. Chrysostome sayde it to the Sacrament Theo. That is your intrusion for neither Origen nor Chrysostom hath any such reference Phi. See the bookes Theo. Neuer appeale to the sight of the bookes but produce the wordes This is your cunning in your Rhemish Testament to bid vs often See the fathers and so the rest but wee haue seene them where you come in thickest with them and there finde nothing for your false and erroneous fansies And therefore either alleage their woordes when you vse their names or say you sawe them not wee lyst not at your bidding to goe seeke for oysters in the Ocean Philand You feare to bee confounded by them and that is the cause you will not See them Theoph. They bee not our but your allegations and did they make for you wee should soone haue tidings of you mary nowe their woordes comming short of your assertions to beare out the matter you send the reader to the names and workes of many Fathers where hee must picke out what hee can at his fingers endes and in the meane time not bee able to charge you with corrupting them since you bid him See them but tolde him not what hee shoulde finde in them This is a way to quote what authorities you list bee they neuer so impertinent and yet to amaze the simple with the number and wearie the learned with not expressing what wordes you take hold of and what they seeke for which in questions of fayth were very needefull Phi. They say wee tell you auoyde it how you can Theo. They say no such thing and though Origen as you haue hearde bee farre enough from it yet Chrysostom in the place which you cite is farther off I meane from directing his prayers to the sacrament Making his supplications to God after consecration hee sayth Ipse Domine caelitus respice ad seruos tuos inclinantes tibi capita sua Thou Lorde looke from heauen on thy seruants that bowe their neckes vnto thee And againe Attende Domine Iesu Christe Deus noster de sancto habitaculo tuo de throno gloriae regni tui veni ad sanctificandum nos qui in excelsis vna cum patre sedes hic nobiscum inuisibiliter ades Behold Lorde Iesu Christ our God FROM thy holy habitation and FROM the throne of the glory of thy kingdome and come to sanctifie vs who sittest in the heauens with thy father and art here with vs inuisibly Hee desireth the sonne of God to beholde his seruantes from heauen not from the sacrament and from thence hee looketh for sanctification not from the patent or Chalice Phi. Hee sayth that Christ is also present with vs
and from whence we looke for our Sauiour euen the Lord Iesus Christ. Phi. All the places which are yet alleaged against you you haue shyfted off by referring the speaches to Christ him-selfe sitting in heauen and as you say not in the sacrament But Theodorets woordes are so cleare that no shift will â—erue Hee speaketh of the very mysticall signes and Sacraments which are seene with eyes and touched with handes and of them hee sayth Intelliguntur ea esse quae facta sunt creduntur adorantur vt quae illâ— sint quae creduntuâ— The Sacraments are vnderstood to be the things which they are made are beleeued and ADORED as being the same which they are beleeued Theo. Onely Theodoret of all the fathers that euer mentioned adoration spake of the Sacrament it selfe The rest direct their words to Christ raigning in glory not to the host or Chalice in the Priestes hande Hee in deede speaketh of the mysticall signes which the rest did not Philand Then yet there is one Father for the adoration of the Sacrament you sayde wee had none Theo. Woulde you prooue so high a point of Religion as this is to bee Catholike by one onely Father and such an one as you thinke not worthy to bee called a Saint Phi. These exceptions are but dilatorie and quite besides the matter Doe you graunt that hee sayth the mysticall signes must bee adored Theo. Hee sayth so Philand And such vpstarts as you are woulde bee credited against him when you say the Sacrament is not to bee adored Theoph. Wee reason not about our credite but about your conclusion Philand That is too plaine for your stoare Theo. Why doe you then conceale it so long Phi. You shall soone heare it and haue your belly full of it The mystical tokens bee adored sayth that auncient Father Theodorete Marke nowe howe nimbly we come within you ouerthrow you in plain field If you deny it we haue here antiquitie for it If you grant it then are you worse than miscreants for holding all this while against it Theo. With such weapons I thinke Alexander the great did conquere the worlde Phi. When you come to a non plus then you fall to idle talke But leaue digressing and giue vs a short and direct answere which wee knowe for your heartes you can not Theo. You knowe much but if you knewe your selues and your owne weakenes it were better Phi. Did I not tell you this place would ouerthrowe you Theo. Because hee sayth the substance of bread and wyne must be adored Phi. Hee sayth no such thing but the mysticall tokens must be adored And what are the mysticall tokens but the mysteries themselues which are all one with the Sacrament Theo. Can you take the top and the tayle and leaue out the myddle so cunningly Phi. Wee leaue out nothing Theo. Theodorets wordes are Neque enim sigra mystica post sanctificationem recedunt a sua natura Manent enâ—m in priore substantia figura forma videri taâ—gi possunt sicut prius Intelliguntur antem ea esse quae facta sunt creduâ—tur adorantur vt quae illa sint quae creduntur The mysticall signes after consecration doe not depart from their owne nature For they remaine in their former substaunce and figure and forme and may bee seene and touched as they were before but they are vnderstoode to bee those thinges which they are made and are beleeued AND ADORED as being the things which they are beleeued The mysticall signes not departing from their owne nature but remayning in their former substance are adored By this you may prooue if you bee so disposed that the creatures of bread and wyne must bee adoren which perhaps in your Church is no fault because it is so often But the Church of Christ abhorreth it as a wicked impietie to adore any dead or dumbe creature And therefore you must bee driuen as well as we to seeke for an other and farther meaning in Theodorete otherwise you will shake the foundation of your owne fayth with your owne antiquitie more than you shall doe ours Our answere is easie The mysticall signes hee sayth are adored but not with diuine honour and adoration with the Grecians as also with the Scriptures when it is applied to mortal men or creatures signifieth onely a reuerent regard of their places or vses Your owne Lawe sayth In hoc sensu possumus quamlibet rem sacram adorare id est reuerentiam exhibere In this sense wee may adore any sacred thing whatsoeuer that is giue it due reuerence So that you vtterly ouerthrowe both your adoration and your Transubstantiation when you brought Theodorete to tell vs that the substance of bread is adored that is reuerenced and yet remayneth after Consecration For if it remaine what adore you but the substance of a dead creature And that if you doe howe many steppes are you from open Idolatrie Thus though wee crake not of our conquests as you doe wee returne your authorities for adoring the sacrament as either impertinent or insufficient giue vs cause to consider that your worshipping it with diuine honour is no catholike or ancient veritie but a pernicious and wicked noueltie Phil. Is it wickednes to worship Christ Theop. You defile the name of Christ spoile him of his worship by giuing them both to senseles creatures Phi. How often shall we beate this into your dull heades that we giue this honour to the Sacrament and not to senseles creatures Theo. And howe often shall wee ring this into your deaffe eares that the Sacrament in corporall matter and substance is a senseles and corruptible creature Phi. Did not Christ saie this is my bodie Theo. You must prooue the speach to be literall as well as the wordes to be his Phi. Is not the letter plaine this is my bodie Theo. The letter is so plaine that it killeth the carnall interpreter and hath driuen you whiles you would needs refuse the figuratiue and spirituall constructions of Christs words to these absurdities and enormities which haue euen ouerwhelmed your Church Phi. Can you wish for plainer wordes than these this is my bodie Theo. I could wish that in expounding these wordes you did relie rather on the catholike fathers than on your vncatholike fansies Phi. All the fathers with one voice toyne with vs in this doctrine Theoph. You doe but dreame of a drie Summer Not one of the auncient fathers euer spake of your reall presence or the literall sense of these wordes on which you buyld the rest Phi. Will you haue a thousand places for that purpose or if varietie of writers do rather content you wil you haue three or four hundreth seuerall fathers all auncient and catholike in diuers ages and countries that shall depose for our doctrine in this point Theo. I can enter a course to saue you
the bosome of the Catholike Church as you terme it to obay their Prince against the censures of your Church Phi. I haue hast in my way Theophilus and I haue said as much as I wil at this time Theo. I can hold you Philander no longer than you liâ—t but yet remember this as you ride by the way which I reiterate because both your Seminaries shall think the better of it that as many as you reconcile so long as you teach this for a point of faith that the Pope may depose Princes and must bee obayed in those his censures of all that will be Catholikes so many both heretikes against God and traytors against the Prince you hatch vnder the hoode of religion and also that the thinges now reformed in the Church of England are both catholik and christian notwithstanding your fierce bragges and fiery wordes lately sent vs in your RHEMISH Testament To the KING euerlasting immortall inuisible vnto GOD which is only wise be honour and praise for euer and euer Amen The speciall contents of euery part The contents of thâ— first part The Iesuits pretenders of obedience Pag. 2 The causes why they fledde the Realme 5 The proofes and places of their Apologie 7 Forcing to Religion 16 Two Religions in one Realm 21 Toleraunce of error 26 Toleraunce of error in priuate places and persons 27 Compulsion to seruice and Sacraments 29 Exacting the oth 30 Their running to Rome 35 This Lande receiuing the faith from Rome 40 Preachers sent from Rome with the Kings consent 41 Preachers not conspirators froÌ„ Rome 41 Howe the Fathers soughte to Rome 42.48 Athanasius at Rome 44 Chrysostomes request to Innocentius 51 A forged Bull against Arcadius 53. Chrysostomes banishment 55 How Saint Augustine sought to Rome 56 How S. Basil sought to Rome 58 S. Ieroms letters to Damasus 60 The Rocke on the which the Church is built 62 S. Cyprian lately corrupted 65 Gratian suspected 66 Peters person laide in the foundation of the Church 67 Theodoret and Leo. 67 The Bishop of Rome resisted 68 Paul resisted Peter 69 Polycarpus resisted Anicetus 70 Polycarpus resisted Victor 70 Cyprian resisted Stephanus 71 Flauianus withstoode foure Bishops of Rome 72 Cyrillus withstoode the Bishop of Rome 72 Councels resisting the Byshop Rome 73 The Councell of Africa resisted the Byshop of Rome 74 Forged Decretals 76 The councel of Ephesus threatning the Legates of Rome 78 The Councell of Chalcedon against the Bishop of Rome 79 The Councell of Constantinople against the Bishoppe of Rome 81 CorruptioÌ„s in the CanoÌ„ lawe 81 The Brytons resisting the Bishop of Rome 82 The Grecians detesting him 83 The Germans deposing him 84 His owne Councels depose him 85. Fraunce resisting the Pope 92 Paris appealeth from him 94 The french King resisting the Pope 95 The Kinges of England against the Pope 97 Our resistaunce more lawefull than theirs 104 Peters dignitie not imparted to the Pope 104 S. Ieroms praise of Rome 105 The manners of Rome since his time 105 The manners of Rome in his time 106 S. Cyprian forced to make for Rome 106 S. Augustine forced to make for Rome 107 From Peters seate is from Peters time 107 The intent of the Seminaries 108. High experiments of Popes 112 High experiments of the Popes clergie 114 The Iesuits slaunder England and Scotland 118 What the Iesuits worke teach in this land 119 The Pope succeedeth his Auncestors neither in seate nor beliefe 12â— The contents of the second part The Princes power to COMMAVND for trueth 124 Princes be gouernours of countries Byshops be not 127 Byshops by Gods lawes subiect to Princes as well as others 128. The Prince by Gods law charged with Religion 129 Princes may commaund for religion 133 Constantine commaunding for Religion 134 Constantius commaunding Bishops in causes ecclesiastical 135. Iustinian commanding for causes Ecclesiasticall 137 Charles commanding for causes Ecclesiasticall 139 The lawes of Charles for causes Ecclesiasticall 140 Ludoâ—ikes lawes for causes Ecclesiasticall 144 Ludouikes lawes visitors 144 What is ment by SVPREME 146. Supreme is subiect to none on earth 146 Princes subiect onely to God 147. Princes not subiect to the Pope 147. The Pope subiect to his Prince 148. Constantine superiour to the Pope in causes ecclesiastical 150 Emperours superiour to the pope in causes Ecclesiasticall 152 The Prince superiour to the Pope 160 Ieremies words expounded 160 How Prophets may plant and roote out kingdoms 161 Howe Kinges must serue the Church 162 How Byshops are to be obeied 164 How the Church is superiâ—ur to Princes 167 What is ment by the Church 168. The Prince not aboue the Church 171 Princes haue power ouer the persons of the Church 172 The woordes of S. Ambrose to Valentinian 173 The behauiour of S. Ambrose towards Valentinian 174 Valentinian refused to be iudge betweene Byshops 177 Valentinians fault 178 Theodosius searched and established the trueth 178 Princes decreeing for truth 179 Athanasius Osius Leontius 179 Athanasius reproued Constantius 180 Athanasius expounded 181 Why Constantius was reproued 182 Osius words examined 188 Leontius discussed 189 What Hilarie misliked in Constantius 190 Kings commended in the scriptures for medling with religion 191 Moses â—oshuaes example 192 King Dauids care for religioÌ„ 193 Princes charged with the whole law of God 194 Asa Iehosaphat Ezekiah perfourmed that charge 193 Manasses Idolatry repeÌ„tance 196 Iosiah reformed religion 197 Nehemiah correcteth the high Priests doings 197 Princes medled with religioÌ„ 198 Princes vsed to commaund for religion 198 God commaÌ„deth by their harts 199. Princes commanding for Religion 200 Princes haue ful power to command for trueth 202 Princes may prohibite and punish error 203 To commaund for causes Ecclesiasticall was vsuall with Princes 204 To commaund Bishops for causes Ecclesiasticall was vsuall with auntient Princes 206 The Iesuites purposely mistake the Princes supremacie 213 The Iesuits cauelling absurdities against the Popes power 221 This land oweth no subiection to tribunals abroade 228 This lande not subiect to the Popes tribunall 229 What subiection the Pope requireth 231 The Pope maketh it sacrilege blasphemie to doubt of his tribunall 231 A right Rhomish subiection 232 Patriarks of the west 233 Patriarks subiect to Princes 234 This Realme not in the Popes Prouince 135 The Patriarkeâ—dome dissolued 235 The words of the oth examined 236 It is easie to plaie with wordes 237 Princes gouerne with the sword Bishops do not 238 Princes only beare the sword in all spirituall things causes 238. Princes supreme bearers of the sword 240 Supreme gouernour displaceth not Christ. 241 Princes may not commaunde against the faith or Canons 242. Gregorie shamefully corrupted 243. Spirituall men aâ— matters 244. Carnall things called spirituall 245 Carnall thinges made spirituall to increase the Popes power and gaine 245 Carnall things made spirituall 246 Princes charged with spirituall things 247 Princes chiefely charged with things truly spirituall 247 Princes charged at Gods hands with things spirituall not
thinges though happily the Prophetes did aduise them and persuade them To be directed and aduised by others doth not hinder the Princes authoritie The high Priest among the Iewes had his commission from Gods owne mouth the Pope hath not Deut. 17. The best christian Princes haue followed the steppes of the kings of Iudah God himselfe speaketh and commandeth by the hearts and lawes of Princes August de ciui Dei li. 5. cap. 24. Idem Epi. 166. Ibidem Aug. Epist. 50. Religion the chiefest care that Princes ought to haue Cod. lib. 1. tit 17 de veter iure enucleando § Deo authore Authen constit 6. Codic Theodos. lib. 16. tit 4. de religione § Ea quae Legum nouell Theodos. tit 2. de Iudeis Samaritanis § Inter caeteras Valentinian himselfe was content at length to coÌ„maund for truth Theodoret. lib. 4. cap. 8. Codic lib. 1. tit 6. NesacruÌ„ Baptisma iteratur Euagrius lib. 3. cap. 14. The right faith is the only strength of an earthly kingdom Idem lib. 5. cap. 4. Niceph. dedicatio operis In Greece the Emperours kept this power 1300. yeres after Christ. Ibidem paulo ante Diligent care of Gods causes the surest proppe of a Princes seat A king of this land making lawes for religion a 1000 yeres after Christ. Lege 1. Lege 6. Lege 7. Lege 14 15. Lege 16. Lege 19 21. Lege 22. Lege 26. â—iter politica iâ—ra erusilem Lege 4 6. The weakest of these places proue that Princes meddle with ecclesiasticall causes which they would seeme to â—ray them from by Osiâ—s wordes And consequently their sword stretcheth vnto spiritual things as well as vnto temporal When papists be posed with these places and cannot auoide them they slip to an other question and cauill about the direction of Princes vnto trueth Princes may commaund for all points of trueth as well as for one He that may commaund for trueth may iustly punish for trueth As lawfull for the Prince to punish Idolaters and heretikes as theeues and murderers Both sides graunt that Princes must punish as well spirituall as temporall offences He that wil punish must first prohibit If Princes may punish prohibite that which is euill in matters of religion ergo they may commaund establish that which is good in the same causes August epist. 50. Idem contra Cresconium lib. 3. cap. 51. Papists grant princes may punish for religion but not coÌ„maund yet punishing is a very forcible kind of coÌ„maunding Nothing clearer than that Princes may commaund for matters of religion August epist. 166. Ibidem The word coÌ„maunding which they most auoide is most vsual in the sacred scriptures auncient lawes of Christian Princes Epist. 66. * Nouel constitut 3.5.6.16.37.42.57.58.59.67.77.79.83.109.117.131.132.133.141.144.146 If princes at all may meddle with matters of religion they must needes commaund Or if the Iesuites will not graunt so much let them looke to the places that went before and presently follow They would none of this if they could chose because they hold that Bishops in these cases must command Princes What Osius ment by saying CoÌ„mandâ— vs not in this kinde Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 3. cap. 23. Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 28. Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 4. cap. 42. Socra lib. 1. ca. 4. Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 27. Idem lib. 1. cap. 38. Theodoret. li. 4. cap. 8. Idem lib. 4. cap. 7. 1. Tim. 3. Cod. lib. 1. tit 6. Ne sanct bapt iâ—eretur Cod. lib. 1. tit 1. Ibidem § nullus Socrat. lib. 5. ca. 7. Gregor epist. li. 4. ca. 78. LeguÌ„ Franciae lib. 1. ca. 76. Ibidem cap. 71. Chalced. Concil actio epist. Theodosii Valentiniani ad Dioscorum The Prince appointeth what Bishops shal be present at the Councell Ibidem Imperatoris epist. ad eund◠§ Diosco reuerendo The Prince maketh the president of the Councel The Prince limiteth who shall haue voyces in the Councell Ibidem Imperatoris commonitorium ad Elpidum Ibidem oratio Martiani ad Synodum Ibidem epist. Euseb. ad Imperator Nouel Constit. 6. § Maxima quidem These commaundemeÌ„ts of Iustinian bound the Bishop of Rome no lesse than other Bishops Ibidem § hanc non pecunijs Ibidem § â— quis auteâ— talis Ibidem § illud etiam definimus Ibidem § sed neque effusas The prince coÌ„maundeth the whole clergie Patriarks Metropolitanes Bishops and the rest whatsoeuer to obserue his ecclesiastical lawes Nouel constit 16. ad finem Constit. 57. Constit. 123. § exigatur autem prius These lawes exteÌ„ded to all prouinces patriarkes Ibidem § prae omnibus autem illud Ibidem § interdicimus autem Ibidem § quis a vero Synodes called for ecclesiastical causes were tied to the Lawes imperiall Ibidem C. ad haec iubemus All Bishops commanded by the Prince Ibidem § Insuper interdicimus Eadem constit § omnibus vero epis Vniust excoÌ„munication punished by the Princes lawes Eadem constit § praeterea si qui. The Courts and consistories of all Bishops Archbishops patriarks limited as well to the Princes lawes as to the Canons No appeal from the Patriark Eadem constit § Clericos auteÌ„ Euagrius lib. 4. cap. 9. Idem li. 5. ca. 6. Idem lib. 5. ca. 5. Cod. lib. 1. tit 3. de epist. cleri C. si quenquam Cod. lib. 1. tit 2. de sacrosactis ecclesiis C. decernimus Osius words if they were not diuersly answered by vs may not controle the perpetuall practise of Christs Church The cunning of the papists in this point is either to belie our doctrine or to slip themselues froÌ„ the question The summe effect of the former allegations authorities for the Princes power Or if they doe not disproue them Apolog. cap. 1. The Iesuites in their Apologie for all their vaunts neuer come neere the princes power which we defend The Princes authoritie as we defend it The Princes supremacie as we maintaine it Neither of these points touched in the Apolog. The absurdities which the Iesuites muster against the Princes supremacie Apolog. cap. 4. sect 21. 1. Cor. 14. 1. Tim. 2. Sect. 22. Epist. 55. Sect. 23. August contra Gaudentij epist. lib. 2. Cap. 25. Sect. 24. Sect. 25. Their absurdities be grounded on their owne dreames not on our doctrine To this that Princes may coÌ„maund for trueth no absurdity can be consequent WheÌ„ Princes coÌ„maund that which is good it is Christ no man els that commaundeth by their mouthes Epist. 166. Ibidem Ibidem Their absurdities must be inferred vppon our assertion if they bring them against vs. May not Christ appoint as well as the Pope what Princes shall commaund To coÌ„maund that which God commaundeth is pietie and no absurditie Supreme as we professe it hath no absurditie consequent to it This misconstering of supreme is the ground of all their absurdities Apol. cap. 4. Sect. 21. Mat. 28. Princes giue no commissioÌ„ but a permission and free libertie without let
resisted the Popes power in whole or in part euer since the conquest This Land subiect to him neither as Christs vicar nor as Patriarke of the west Apol Cap. 4. sect 25. Bishoppes may preach wihout Cesars leaue if they submit themselues to Cesars sword as the Apostles did The Iesuites cunning in playeng with the worde Supreme as they doe What the Iesuits imagine of the word Supreme The wordes of the oth be sound eâ—ough if they cease peruerting them Ruler and Prince be as doubtfull as gouernour if men be disposed to cauill Bishops be called Rulers Princes Kings Queenes Heb. 13. Act. 20. In. 1. Cap. epist. ad Titum Idem in 3. Ca. 1. ad Tim. Lib. 4. Cap. 33. Morali in Iob. In 49. ca. Esaiae Euerie of the faithfull is a King and a Priest Reuelat. 1. 1. Peter 2. Lib. Cap. 37. Idem lib. 4. Cap. 24. Ibidem Princes are Bishops and Priests Euagrie tom epist. 2. Idem Oceano eodem tom Exod. 24. Iosua 24. Iudges 8. Iudâ—th 6. The ground of al their absurdities is the cauilling at 〈◊〉 words The gouernment of Princes Prâ—ests are distinct Gouernours of this realme none is but only the Prince This is the profound Logike of Rhemes A right Frier that will neuer be answered though the Sophisme be neuer so grosse Only Princes beare the sworde within their owne dominions If only Princes beare the sword they beare it in al things as well spiritual as teÌ„porall where the sword is required The sworde must be vsed in spirituall things and causes as wel as temporall Princes caÌ„not be defenders of the faith officers of the Church but by means of the sword 1. Tim. 2. The sword ordeined chiefly to preserue godlinesse and honesty among men The sword of Princes is supreme in that it is not subiect to the Pope must be obeyed of al in things that be good These bee right Iesuiticall conceits The true supremacie of Princes The Papists in euery stile which they giue the Pope make him supreme Caus. 25. quaest 1. § Nulli fas Acclamationes in fine Concil Triden Sess. 25. Supreme gouernour doth not touch Christ so nere as Supreme Bishop doth which is the Popes vsuall stile 1. Pet. 5. 1. Pet. 2. My Kingdom is not of this world Ioh. 18. Who made me Iudge ouer you Luke 12. Princes must be indured whatsoeuer they coÌ„mand but not obeyed agaynst the faith or canoÌ„s of the church In temporall things Princes may not frustrate the lawes of their progenitors nor the liberties of the people Lib. 4. cap. 27. Constit. 131. de Eccle. Canon Al godly princes haue admitted the Canons of the Church Constit. 6. Athanas. ad solitar vitaÌ„ agentes Gregor lib. 9. epist. 41. The Pope obeyed the Princes lawes not against the Canons The Popes name put in steed of the Princes Caus. 7. quaest 1. Scripsit Nouel coÌ„st 83. Item const 6. To be tyed to the saith and canons of the Church doth not diminish their supremacie The Princes sword is not spirituall Ephes. 6. Reuelat. 1. Hebr. 4. The word of god is the spirituall sword The magistrats sword is corporall Mat. 10. Mat. 10. And temporall 2. Cor. 4. How the Papists abuse the word spirituall in extending it to men and matters that they should not They be spirituall which haue the spirit of God 1. Cor. 3. 1. Cor. 2. Gal. 6. Iude epist. 1. Pet. 2. Hieron ad Iulian. tomo epist. 1. Their lands liuings must be spirituall though Saint Paul call theÌ„ carnall 1. Cor. 9. Rom. 15. Mat. 22. Ambros. epist. lib. 5. orat coÌ„tra Auxent The Romish kalender of spirituall things See the tytles of their Decretals Malefactours of al sortes should opeÌ„ly repent before they be receiued to the Sacraments Rom. 13. The goods lands and liuings of Clergie men be Cesars right What things ChristiaÌ„ Princes first committed to Bishops for their learning and integritie the Pope afterward toke theÌ„ vp as his own Bishops the fittest men to deale in these causes but by the Princes power and lawes Bishops by their function may deny the sacraments to such as will not repent but they may not compel or punish any man without commission from the Prince Compulsion correction in all things is the Princes right The sword ordayned chiefly for things spirituall Rom. 7. Ibidem Rom. 13. 1. Pet. 2. Mark 10. Worldly thinges be neither good nor euil for which two causes Princes beare the word The spiritual things which the Pope claimeth are teÌ„porall 1. Cor. 13. 1. Cor. 14. Princes were not ordained to cloaâ—â— the backe feede the belâ—â— â— Tim. 6. Mat. 6. 1. Tim. 2. Godlines and honestie the chiefest causes why Princes were ordained The Prince hath the same charge in the coÌ„monwealth that euerie priuate man hath in his familie Ephes. 6. The parentes charge towardes their children Psalm 34. Deut. 4. Deut. 4. Genes 18. Psalm 101. Dauids charge in his kingdome Religion the Princes chiefest charge Nouel Consti 6. Legum Theod. Nouel tit 2. de Iudaeis Samaritanis Aug. epist. 162. The sifting examining of a Bishop did most pertaine to the princes charge by S. Aug. iudgemeÌ„t Epist. ad LuciuÌ„ inter leges Edward cap. 17. Eleutherius opinion of the Princes charge Inter leges Edward Reg. cap. 17. Pope Iohns opinion of the Princes charge Beda hist. gentis Anglor cap. 32. Gregories coÌ„fession of the Princes charge The king of Englands oth expressing his charge Inter leges Edward cap. 17. de Regis offâ—cio Ibidem The very heathen were of the same opinion Politic. lib. 3. cap. 11. Ibidem cap. 5. In all kingdomes and common-wealthes since the foundation of the earth religion hath been setled defended by the Magistrates sword Their authoritie must stretch as far as their dutie God hath giuen Princes the sword in those thinges which himself commandeth The Priest in no cause may beare the sword The confirming of Rites and Ceremonies needeth the sword The abuse or contempt of excommunication reuenged by the sword The sworde committed to the Prince Rom. 13. His Apostles forbidden the sword Mat. 26. Mat. 20. Bernard de considerat lib. 2. Dominion interdicted the Pope himself Caus. 33. quaest 2. ¶ Inter haec Caâ—s 33. quaest 8. ¶ De Episc. No clergimen may vse the sword no not by the Popes authoritie 2. Cor. 10. Ad solitar vitaÌ„ agentes Ambros. lib. 5. Epist. 33. The seruants of Christ may haue no earthly kingdome since their master had none Iohn 8. Matth. 10. 2. Tim. 2. Distinct. 96. ¶ Cum. ad verum A Bishop may not vsurp an Emperours name much lesse his sword Distinct. 10. ¶ Quoniam ideÌ„ Cyprian writeth to Iulian an 100. yeares before Iulian was borne The Disciples of Christ straitly charged not to medle with Princely swords The sworde hath beene may be and should be vsed for that which is good in al spirituall things and causes The oth cleared Their absurdities returned on their owne heades
the great learned and generall councell of Laterane Cap. 3. de haeret This was the next way to make all safe on their side Platin. in Innocent 3.800 Hungrie friers brought into the councell to ouerrule the Bishops A fine stratageme of the Pope to set out thinges consulted as if they had bin concluded Platina in vita Innocentij 3. Nothing concluded in the Councel of Lateran THE DEFENCE OF ENGLISH CATHOLIKES Cap. 4. Matth. 19. By Gods lawe you may not resist much lesse displace the Prince The woord of God binding you to obedience neither Pope nor couÌ„cel can assoile you from it This is it which Master Allen professeth to prooue in the 5. chap. of his DefeÌ„ce What subiection honor God alloweth vnto Princes 1. Peter 2. Rom. 13. Prouerb 8. * Wisdom 6. * Rom. 13. 1. Peter 2. Prouer. 24. We may not dishonor princes in word deede or thought Exod. 22. * Eccle. 10. Rom. 13. 1. Pet. 2. Iudgement threatned chiefly to theÌ„ that despise Magistrates 2. Pet. 2. Iude. Rom. 13. Luk. 20. Honor subiection tribute by Gods law due to Princes By the Iesuits doctrine Caesar shal haue that which God alloweth him so long as pleaseth the Pope You may not resist them or despise them ergo much lesse displace them Iohn 8. Deposition is an authentike rebellion vnder the Popes scale The defence of English catholikes cap. 5. 1. Reg. 10.15.16 Saul deposed for vsurping spirituall function 1. Reg. 22. The Prophets denounced both the temporall eternall iudgementes of God but they inflicted neither By these exaÌ„ples Priestes may kill men set their houses on fire or pull out their eyes as wel as displace Princes if the Iesuites collections bee good The Popes commission to depose Princes they promised to proue by scripture nowe vainly suppose it without Scripture Samuel Elias and Elizeus had speciall extraordinary commaundement from God to doe as they did The Pope may not doe that which the Prophetes did till hee haue the same precept which they had To put down kings is an honour specially reserued vnto God him selfe Luc. 1. Dan. 2. Dan. 4. The Pope will depose Princes as well as God The example of Saul God prescribed Samuel what he shuld say to Saul ful sore for against the will of Samuel 1. Kings 16. All Israell and Dauid obeied and honoured Saul as the Lords annointed to his dying day The defence Cap. 5. Aug. contra Adamant 1. Kings 24. 1. Kings 24. 1. Kings 26. 2. Kings 1. Ibidem Cap. 17. 1. Kings 26. Dauid confesseth he might not kill Saul without sinne Contra Adimantum ca. 17. The words be grounded rather on Adimantus assertion than S. Austens perswasion S. Aug. speaketh not of Sauls deposition but of reuenge permitted by Moses law which the Maniches did obiect Adimantus antecedent returned on his own head Aug. Centra lit Petilian lib. 2. cap. 48. S. Aug. holdeth that Saul had the holinesse of his princely inunction to the houre of his death Dauid put himselfe in armes to saue his life not to seeke the Crowne Saul reiected from hauing the kingdome to him his seede * 1. Kings 15. The children of Israell required a king after the maner of other Nations that is a setled succession in the kingdom 1. Reg. 13. * To thee and thine for euer 1. Kings 15. Aug. de ciuit Dei li. 17. ca. 7. S. Augustine expoundeth Saules reiection as we do * The Scripture is cleare for the same sense 1. Kings 16. Dauid aduanced when hee was but a boy keeping sheep Dauid neuer claimed the Crowne from Saul 1. Kinges 20. The Priestes protested that Dauid was a faithfull seruant to Saul 1. King 22. All Israel alleadged Samuels fact that Dauid ought to succeede 2. Kings 5. 1. Chron. 11. God annointed such as should succeede The Defence cap. 5. 3. Reg. 13.14 The example of Ieroboam a wicked schismatik denouÌ„ced by a priest Prophets may threaten wicked Princes in Gods name but not depriue them of their crownes The Prophet that cried out against Ieroboams Altar spake not a worde of his schisme It is easie for any side to applie figures as thy list Reuel 17. Reuel 19. Gods threatning IeroboaÌ„ is nothing to the doposing of Princes by priestes * 3. Kinges 14. The Defence cap. 5. The example of proud Ozias that would take vnto him the authoritie of priests Vzziah strikeÌ„ with a leprosie but not deposed The high Priest withstood the king with wordes not with weapons The Iesuites delight in martial terms * 2. Chron. 26. De verbis Esai Vidi DominuÌ„ The Iesuits gather coÌ„clusioÌ„s cleane against the Scriptures and their own canons * Caus. 23. quaest 8. ¶ 1. * Ibidem ¶ 2. * Ibidem ¶ 3. * Ibidem ¶ Clerici * Ibidem ¶ quicunque Ibidem dict ¶ quicunque § hijs ita * 1. Tim. 3. 2. Tim. 2. Tit. 1. * 2. Cor. 10. * Mat. 24. The Princes person no Priest may violate or so much as touch Psal. 105. 1. Kings 24. They might not vse violence what needed any when the King hastned of himselfe to goe forth * 2. Chro. 26. * 2. Chro. 26. 4. Kings 15. 2. Chron. 26. 4. King 15. Oziah was king of Iudah to the day of his death The Priestes were to discerne lepers but the Magistrate to see them kept apart from others Numb 5. The leprosie of the soule no cause of depriuation vnto Princes In Luc. lib. 5. de leproso mundato Chrysost. in Mat hom 16. oper imperfect hom 10. To beare the sword in matters of religioÌ„ is the Princes and not the priests charge The defence cap. 5. 4. Reg. 11. The example of the deposition death of Queene Athalia by Ioida the hie-Priest Athalia an vsurper and slaine by the Kings authoritie Ioidaes warrant to commaund Athalia to be put to death in the Kings name 2. Chrâ— 23. 4. Kings 11. The defence cap. 5. 3. Reg. 18.19 The executioÌ„ done by Elias the Prophet vpon many with deposition of Princes 4. Reg. 1. 3. Reg. 19. 4. Reg. 9. Elias zeale 3. Kings 18. Elias caused the Prophets of Baal to be slaine by the publike authoritie of the King and his people Elias was a Prophet and not an executioner How Elias gate Achab the whole Realm to decree the slaughter of Baals prophets * 3. Kings 17. Vers. 1. * 3. Kings 18. Vers. 23. Vers. 24. Vers. 1. Vers. 24. Vers. 39. Vers. 40. Vers. 24. The King and the people consented to Elias offer Vers. 20. Vers. 24. 3. Kings 19. Elias is said in the Scripture to haue doon the deede because he was the procurer and author of it Acts. 7. Iosu. 10. 3. Kings 14. God sent â—er from heauen not Elias Luke 9. * Exod. 12. * Iudges 16. * 4. Kings 2. THE DEFENCE OF ENGLISH CATHOLIKES The annointing of Hazael 4. Kings 8. Iehu willed by God to take the sword and root out Achabs house 4. Kings 9. Ibidem vers
word as by his sacrameÌ„ts * Hier. in Psal. 147. The flesh of Christ is eateÌ„ more truely in his worde than in the sacraments * De Cons. dist 2. § vt quid paras August de ciui 〈◊〉 21. ca. 25. No such words are found in Chrysostoms Liturgie The woordes may be there yet not spoken to the sacrament a Pag. 21. l. n. 12 pag. 463. lin 11. b Pa. 452. li. 30. The Iesuites bid vs see the fathers but they doe not tell vs what we shall finde there It is not enough to will vs to see the fathers they must saie to what end they alledge them Chrysostome praieth to Christ in heauen not to the sacrameÌ„t * Liturg Chrys. Ibidem He woulde haue Christ behold the people from heauen not from the sacrament Mat. 18. Mat. 28. How Christ is present with vs. August in Iohan tract 50. His diuinitie is present with vs. Idem Ibidem His humanity present with vs manie waies though not in substance The Rhe. test pag. 453. The auncient Church did exactlie distinguish the sacrament from Christ. a De Catech. rudibus cap. 26. b De Baptis lib. 3. cap. 10. c Ambr. de Sacrament li. 4. cap. 3. d Orig. in 15. Matt. The whole Church cried on the people to lift vp their harts e Concil Nice * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth in as well as on f August in Iohan tract 50. Christ is both seene and touched by faith g Ambr. in Luc. li. 6. ca. 8. de filia princ Synag vesiâ—â—ci h Chrys. in 1. Cor. hom 24. * Ibidem Christ is on the table because his death is solemnized in the mysteries on the table i Colos. 3. k Phil. 3. Theod. dial 2. Not one of the fathers which they bring speaketh of the externall sacrament saue onelie Theodoret The mysticall signes must be adored but not with diuine honor These men caÌ„ plaie with shadowes verie pretilie The mysticall tokens remaining in their former substance must be adored Theod. Dial. 2. If they will adore the substance of breade Theodorets wordes will helpe them forward but not otherwise Adored is sometimes as much as â—eueâ—enced De cons. dist 3. § venerabiles in glossa ¶ cultu The Iesuits authorities for adoration of the Sacrament prooue no such thingâ— The reall presence This is my bodie doth not infer the reall presence Not the words but the exposition of the wordes is the thing that we striue for The Iesuites maie soone bring a thousand authorities for this point and not one to the purpose The papists in this question thinke to conquere with number if not with strength of places The papists beap vp places for their reall presence by hundreths not one to the purpose It were more wisdome for them to vndeâ—staÌ„d what they alledge than to alledge they know not what We striue not for Christs presence in the mysteries but for the manner of his presence The presence which the Iesuits hold the fathers neuer heaâ—d of Garetius Vernierus and the rest if a father do but name the body of Christ bring him in by and by for a witnes on their side and then they muster them by hundreths * You turne all fâ—â—m the thing themselues to the signes that is the cause of your error a Psalm 64. b Ierem. 18. Wisd. 1. These â—wo rules must be obserued in reading the fathers touching this matter els we shall infinitely erre To mistake the signes for the thinges themselues must needes bread a monsterous error Aâ—l their allegaâ—â—ns are answered with theâ—e two obseruations The literall prâ—ssing of those wordes is the gâ—ound of alâ— their error Christ did make the bread a God but added grace to the signe that it might becom a sacrament If bread be not made the sonne oâ— God then sure the bread is not made Christ. If the breade be Christ it must needs be made Christ for before it was not Christ. Christ doth not saie this is chaunged for or with my bodie but this is my bodie If the breade be Christ ergo it is God for he is God THIS in Christs words must needes note somewhat This must bee this somwhat and not this nothing The Iesuits be loath to tell vs what is meÌ„t by this in the wordes of Christ. This indeede is the right literall sense of our sauiours wordes and since that is apparently false the figuratiue sense must take place Matth. 26. The connexion of the gospell reâ—erreth THIS to the bread in the wordes of Christ. THIS of it selfe inferreth nothing and therefore must be guided by the circumstances of the text a 1. Cor. 11. b 1. Cor. 10. a 1. Cor. 11. Saint Paul in plaine speach ioynethâ— THIS to the bread Al the fathers referre THIS to the bread c Iust. Apol. 2. d Tertul. aduer Iedaeos e Idem li. 4. contra MarcioneÌ„ f De cons. dist 2. § qui maÌ„ducas g Cypr. de vnctio Chrismat h Iren. lib. 4. cap. 34. i Idem li. 4. c. 57 k Hier. ad Hedibiam quaest 2. l Athan in 1. Cor. cap. 11. m Epiph. in Anchorato n Cyril catechis mystag 4. o Theod. â—ial â— The Iesuites loose all hope of their transsubstaÌ„tiatioÌ„ if THIS in the wordes of Christ do not note the bread p De canâ— disâ— 2. § ante benedictioâ—eâ— Glâ—ssa ibidem q Gerson contr Floretum li. 4. r Gard. contra diabolic sophist s In his Marc. Antoni Consr. t Occam in 4. sâ—ntent dist 13. u De cons. dist 2. § timâ—rem Glossa ibidem Then haue the Iesuits small hold in the literall sense of Christs words for their transsubstantiatioÌ„ That this is the right purport of Christs words it cannot be doubted So long as the letter is true we maie not flie to figures but if that be false we kill our soules except we â—lie to figures * Aug. de dâ—â—tr Christiana lib. 3 cap. 10. When the speach must be figuratiue The literall coherence of these wordes this bread is my bodie is impossible blasphemous and barbarous To reprooue the misconsterer is to reuerence the speaker z De cons. dist 2. § panis est in Altari Glossa ibidem Not possible by their owne confession that breade should be the bodie of Christ. To saie that bread is christ in proper speach is horrible blasphemie To eate flesh in proper speach is against nature and far from all pietie a August contra aduers. legis Propheta lib. 2. cap. 9. b Idem contra eundem lib. 1. cap. 14. c Cyril in Iohan. lib. 4. cap. 22. d August de doctr Christ. lib. 3. cap. 16. To eate flesh is an hainous act ergo Christs words are figuratiue This is S. Austens reason if the Iesuites can reâ—ure him let them Where Christ said this bread is my bodie the Iesuits say this must be no bread before it can be my bodie It is as great blasphemie for the bread to be turned into Christ as to be Christ.
self same matter was to folow should with al diligence weigh the cause and those against whom sentence was giuen might cleerely confesse themselues to be condemned not by any faction of the former Iudges but iustly and worthily And if this were an auncient custome and the memorie therof renewed and put in writing by the great Nicene Councell you now will not suffer the same to take place with you trewly you doe an vnseemly thing For no equitie doth alow that a few of you shuld abrogate a custome once receaued in the Church confirmed by so great a Synode yet that being granted you the offence which you take is without al reason for your Legats Macarius and Hesiochus no way able to match those that Athanasius sent but in euery thing conuicted and refuted by them Concilium indici postularunt literasque ad Eusebianos Athanasium Alexandriam quibus conuocarentur mitti vt coram omnibus iusto iudicio de causa cognosci posset tunc enim se de Athanasio probaturos esse quod iam nequirent required a Councell to bee summoned and letters to be sent to the Eusebians and to Athanasius at Alexandria to giue them warning to come that the cause might bee debated before all in an euen and vpright iudgement adding that they would then conuince Athanasius of those things wherin now they failed Yea publikely in our presence Martyrius and Hesichius were confounded Athanasius Priestes readily answering them with great boldnes to say the trueth Martyrius and his side were alwayes put to the worst Ac proinde Concilium generale postulauit And for that cause he requested a generall assemblie of Bishoppes If therefore Martyrius and Hesichius your agents not requiring a Councell I had exhorted you that they which wrote to mee on either side might bee called to a Councell namely in fauour of my brethren which complayned they were oppressed that motion of mine had beene honest and iust for so much as it is acceptable to God agreeable to the Canons but now where those very men whom you counted to be discreete and worthy to be trusted with your message were the first inciters of mee to cal you to a Synode surely you ought not to take that in so ill part By these words these two pointes are more than manifest First that Iulius did not peremptorily commaund them to appeare before him but exhorted them to meete in a lawfull Councell for the better discussing of matters in question Next that for the warning of a Councel which should examine their acts hee pretendeth not his supreme power ouer all the Church nor his Lieutenantship to Christ but groundeth himselfe on their consents which were the chiefe authors of this tragedie and citeth the Nicene Councel agreeing with the auncient vsage of the Church that Synodes might discusse and redresse the wrongs done by Bishoppes Phi. You can not denie but Iulius heard their Legats before the Bishoppes met Theo. I graunt for his better information hee might heare them alone but not to giue iudgement thereof without others so sayth Iulius himselfe Athanasius was neither condemned at Tyrus nor present at Mareota where you proceeded in his absence And you know that the records of those acts bee very suspitious and of no force where one part onely was admitted to proue Yet we though it were so for the more full discussing of the matter did neither preiudice you that wrate against him nor those that wrate for him but exhorted all as many as wrate to present themselues here in iudgement that all thinges might exactly bee skanned in a Synode In the which Synode when the contrary side refused to appeare Athanasius was hearde at large and there receiued to the communion of all the West Church as right Bishoppe of Alexandria notwithstanding his former deposition by the Bishoppes at Antioche and the violent intrusion of an other in his place Phi. This you say but this you proue not Theo. If Athanasius say the same it is proofe sufficient and that you shall heare him say Viton the Priest whom Iulius sent for that purpose brought with him to the councel moe than fiftie Bishops where our defence was admitted and wee counted worthie to bee receiued to their communion and brotherly feast and great indignation kindled against the Eusebians to whome they willed Iulius to write backe in his owne name for that their letters were written to him not to them And so Iulius did putting them to wit which is the thing that you stagger at that although his name were alone to the letters yet the common consent approbation of the Synode wanted not to the matter Notwithstanding saith he that I alone wrate to you yet I wrate the iudgement and opinion not of my selfe onely but of all the Bishops of Italie and of all in these quarters The Bishops met at the time appointed and were of that mynde which I nowe signifie to you againe wherfore though I alone write yet I would haue you knowe that I write the common opinion of them all And his Epistle ended This sayth Athanasius the Synode at Rome wrate by Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that all this while Iulius did nothing of himselfe without a Synode neither did hee or the Synode challenge any superioritie ouer the East Bishops but rather an equalitie with them and for that cause might require to see the reason of their doings against Athanasius before they would reiect him as no Bishop and communicate with Gregorie that was placed in his seate And so much the East Bishops should haue doone without asking For where a prouinciall Synode bindeth no man out of the same Prouince they were by the discipline and custome of the Church to sende their letters to the Bishops of euery Prouince namely to the chiefest and to expect the general consent of their brethren before they proceeded to the deposition of a Bishop and so great Bishoppe as the Patriarke of Alexandria was which is the thing that Iulius vrgeth them with Si vt dicitis omnino in culpa fuerunt oportuit secundum Canonem non isto modo iudicium fieri oportuit scribere omnibus nobis vt ita ab omnibus quod iustum esset decerneretur Episcopi enim erant non vulgares ecclesiae qui ista patiebantur If as you pretend they were guiltie in deede yet iudgement should haue gone forwarde according to the Canon of the Church and not after this strange sort you should haue written to vs all that that which had been iust might haue been determined by all For they were Bishops and no meane Churches that were thus vsed By this you see that in ayding and helping Athanasius the Bishop of Rome did neither by worde nor deed take vpon him to be vicar generall to Christ on earth nor supreme iudge of all men and matters in the Church as nowe he doeth but claymeth rather