iustifie them or were not silence the best aunswere to so great folies Let the Reader iudge The B. of Saris. If no bodie receiued then is it not true that some receiued Harding The .196 vntruth Chrisostome saith not that some receiued Dering If the last vntruthe were not worth the noting then what store hath he that is faine to number it twice Yet so it is this purposed number hath driuen M. Harding to such inconuenience The former vntruthe was Chrisostome said not some receiued with the priest this is he saith not some receiue if he would make the third that some receiue not with it had euen as good reason as either of these But let these vntruthes alone they cannot doe much harme Onely I must admonish thée that after this long ado with Maister Iuel Maister Harding for his exercise will fights little with him selfe Here he saith that Chrisostome saith not that some receiue yet out of this same place of Chrisostome alleaging these wordes Cum timore dei et fide et dilectione accedite he doeth english them thus come you vp to receiue with the feare of God c. These cōtrary sayings without one vntruth cannot be reconciled If there he wel translated it come vp to receiue then this is no vntruth If this be vntrue then that was a false translation One of these can not be denied The B. of Saris. He saith the people in the Cities were daylie taught by sermons Harding The .197 vntruthe I say not so let my booke be iudge Dering Maister Harding by like doth say and vnsay and careth not what he say These are his verie wordes Now if Chrisostome had cause to complaine of the peoples slacknesse in that great and populous citie of Antioche where the scriptures were daily expounded and preached c. And here I say as Maister Harding saith let his booke be iudge And why then is this vntruth scored vp with other Would he haue vs think that this preaching were onely in Antioche and no where else This might well be if papistrie hadde ben then in vre and preaching not regarded But to think it of that world in which good religion florished and Gods word was plentifull it is an vncharitable gessing Thus much I speake graunting Maister Hardings wordes that in Antioche the people were daily taught And then if it were so the same vse had ben likewise kept in other cities so Maister Hardings owne wordes going for true this can be no vntruth but how true those wordes are Maister Iuel doeth sufficiently proue reade his Replie he doeth alleage Chrysostomes owne wordes to proue that in Antioche they had sermons but once a wéeke and therevpon he saith further thus The B. of Saris. I note this not for that I mislike of daily preaching but for that vntruth so boldelie presumed should not passe vntouched Harding The .198 vntruth It is no vntruth Dering I am sorie to trouble the reader with aunswering to so vaine vntruthes but so it is if nothing should be said they would be thought of some force Maister Harding vseth this reason to proue his priuate Masse In Antiochie there was but a verie few to communicate sometime Therfore in the countrey belike there was priuate Masse Of this argument Maister Iuel saith thus to aduaunce the citie to abase the countrey he saith in cities they had dayly sermons but this is vntrue For in Antioche they had not so Now rise M. Hardings two vntruthes 1. I say not they were taught so in cities 2. They were taught so in Antioche Who could haue scraped out these vntruthes but he Or what force is there in them For this second vntruth where he still affirmeth they had dayly preaching in Antioche that is a very false lie and yet how impudently doth be persist in it The B. of Saris. Yet saith Maister Harding in small countrey churches either the Priest let cease the dayly sacrifice or else he receiued alone Harding The .199 vntruth I say not so This is altogether falsified Dering I pray God Maister Harding be not altogether without grace He so vnreuerently speaketh euill of authoritie so boldely denieth his owne sayings that his cause is much to be feared Marke here Maister Iuels wordes I will lay M. Hardings wordes with them then iudge whether here be any vntruth Thus he writeth of such countrey churches it must be sayd that either the sacrifice ceased c. Or that the memorie of our Lords death was oftentimes celebrated of the Priestes in the daily oblation without tarying for others to communicate with them Marke now how Maister Iuel chaungeth these wordes either the daily sacrifice ceased saith Maister Harding either the priest let cease the daily sacrifice saith Maister Iuell What is here falsified If it dyd cease the Priest ceased it For I trow the lay man might not say Masse if he would The other péece of Maister Hardings saying is this or else the memorie of our Lords death was often times celebrated of the priestes in the daily oblation without tarying for other to communicate with them These many words bicause oftedious writing Maister Iuell reporteth this or the priest receiued alone Now iudge of this place which Maister Harding saith is altogether falsified and praye that Maister Harding may once haue eies to sée The .200 vntruth Here Maister Harding noteth an vntruth in the margin that is not in the text When he telleth vs what it is we will better examine it The B. of Saris. The Masse that is so glorious can neither be founde in churches nor chappels Harding It is found both in churches and chappels Dering It is not yet found neither in church nor chappell within .600 yeares of Christ. The B. of Saris. Thus saith Chrysostome if thou stand by and not receiue thou art malapert thou art shamelesse thou art impudēt 2. thine eies be vnworthie the sight herof vnworthie be thine eares 3. O thou wilt say I am vnworthie to be partaker of the holie mysteries then art thou vnworthie to be partaker of the praiers 4. Thou maist no more stay here than an heathen that ueuer was christened Harding The .202 vntruthe Chysostome doeth not say these vvordes The .203 vntruthe Chrysostome saith not then an heathen vnchristened Dering Sure good Reader the numbring of these vntruthes is verie straunge here is one Chrysostome saith not these wordes an other he saith not then an heathen c. I would faine know here in the first vntruth what Maister Harding meaneth by these words If he meane the whole sentence why maketh he an other truth If he meane all the sentence going before this latter vntruth why doeth he not make of it thrée seuerall vntruthes For it is distinguished into thrée seuerall sentences or if he think but one of those sentences is false why doeth he not tell vs which it is Certaine it is Maister Harding did know that these former partes of this allegation were all true
cause why he was conuerted or rather peruerted And in that he is not constant as he was before in his Religion the grace of God saith he and the study of more matures yeares did instruct me otherwise This cause doth sufficiently confute it selfe For Maister Harding chaunged his Religion in seuen dayes in which he had not many yeares to study ▪ nor yet quiet time to deliberate Héere followeth a little iesting at the name of Ministers and vngodly Metaphores to the defacing of their preaching all not woorth the aunswere And in déede who so would scoure away all that froth from his writinges should leaue him in most places nothing but white paper Harding ¶ What I should haue done and how farre I should haue gone in case Gods prouidence had not changed that state he sawe to whom nothing is vnsene And perhaps in continuance of time I should haue ioined further with you except his speciall grace had called me backe and seuered me from you What soeuer in those dayes I thought or said amisse our Lorde forget and forgeue Verye like it is had not the condition of that time bene altered that I shoulde haue thought and said worse then I did and haue bene carried away further But nowe I see what great cause I haue to reioyce and thank God who vsed the change of the time as an occasion and meane whereby to chaunge me vnto the better For whiles I feared to suffer that I would not by new condition of the time I was compelled to seeke the truth which before I knew not and willingly to holde that which before I refused Dering In this paragraphe before Maister Harding saith that the grace of God more mature yeares did better instruct him But he had little hope to finde many yeares in seuen dayes therfore now he saith that Gods especial grace the change of the Prince did change him also So y t whether of both did helpe many yeares in a weeke or the change of a Prince he hath called God to witnes to a lye But let it be the change of the time did change Maister Harding yet let him not ascribe it vnto God which is his owne euill doing Surely for the Minister to turne sodenly with the worlde it is an vnwéented kinde of calling and such as the holy Ghost hathe left none in example But you defend your selfe with S. Aug. saying True it is a man may be brought vnto Christ through feare of punishment else why serueth authority Yet as this liked you in S. Aug. to know it might be done so may it please you also in y e same Epistle to know how it is done S August saith ac sic ista cogitatione docibiles facti non in calumnijs et fabulis humanis sed in diuinis libris promissam per omnes gentes inuenirent eccleziam that by this due consideration of earthlye punishment we being made apt for instruction not in mens wranglinges and deuyses but in the heauenly bookes we shoulde finde the church promysed through all the world This péece Maister Harding hath concealed For in his turn he did not séeke for the church in Gods Scriptures but in mens tradicions Therfore he is little helped by S. Augustine Nay he doth rather shew y e cause why Maister Harding is now so obdurate quam multos saith he obduratae consuetudinis graue vinculū colligabat how many hath the heauy yoake of olde custome tyed togither that it might be fulfilled in them the froward seruant shall not be amended with the woorde of God so that he not clayming his turne by the aduertisement of the scriptures but cleauyng fast vnto olde custome hath deliuered him selfe from thys helpe of S. Augustine Héere he maketh a long discourse of his priuate doings impertinent to his priuate Masse which I can not meddle with bicause I know them not Harding ¶ If I may be beleued telling that of my selfe which I my self God know best this is the truth My errour was of ignoraunce not of malice My vnderstanding was obscured my will was not of selfe purpose peruerted Wherin I offended it was not so much through malice of will as through want of skill I did not with animositie as S. Augustine calleth it mainteine what lyked my priuate choise but ignorauntly I receiued what guilefully the condition of the time obtruded Dering Here M. Harding vpon better aduise assigneth yet agayne the third cause of hys turning He hath nowe forsaken better instruction by mature yeares he taketh holde no more of the chaunge of the Prince but for his more commendation saith he was turned by prayer I trow by saying our Ladies Mattines this cause bicause it is the best cause he setteth it out with his best maner of writing and with the dissolute figure sometyme speaking ryme sometyme hauing no reason he concludeth this third cause that is héere alleadged But what néedeth this any long aunswer If his errour wer ignorance how got he so spéedy knowledge If his vnderstāding wer obscured how was it so quickly lightned What bookes red he who was his teacher Hath he found so many miracles for his priuate Masse that he woulde haue vs wéene he was turned by a Miracle Yet he saith it soothly that his offence was not so muche through malice of wyll as through want of skyll Now verily M. Harding this like falling figure falleth in this place quite out of order This other repetition about the sayings of our sauiour Christ séeke and you shall finde c. hath preatie turning in wordes but M. Harding in hys lyfe hath turned himselfe quite from them Hardyng ¶ That I proceded no farther in errour it was the goodnes of God who with his mercifull hand stayde me backe from running to the extremitie that you be run vnto Dering Nowe M. Harding can shewe no good cause of his falling awaye in to the power of darknesse it liketh him to gesse what brought him so farre into the kingdome of light For séeing by his hobs and rouers his hart was not vpright toward God he can not iudge why he was estemed such a preacher of his Gospell But this gessing at his going forwarde is as vayne as the causes of his returne haue bene found vnconstant Satan can turne him selfe in to an Angell of light to make his Ministers thinke they doe God good seruice The idolatrous Israelites would séeme to séeke God daylye euen as a nation that did righteously and had not forsaken the statutes of their God So M. Harding would faine haue his turning for his more humilitie and hys suddaine reuolting for his further well doing But what néedeth so busie searche in so playne a matter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 his own hobbing and double dealing made God giue him ouer to his old idolatries out of which before of his frée mercie he had drawen him So let M. Harding séeke no farther cause His iniquities haue seperated betwene him and his
vntruthes It is knowen how vncourteously those reuerend Fathers were entreated their sayings coulde not be heard for the others shamelesse â—issings This commendation of Maister Hardings catholike Doctours is out of season Their learning bicause it is Gods gift I do reuerence their vsage I detest and abhor The rumours of some of their doings are yet hot in Cambridge If I would make base notes in the mergin as Maister Hardings companions do vse where they doe speake slaunderously I could say the truth and make â— Christian mans eares to glowe at their filthynes But God amend them and let the report of their euill be buried with their euill Hardyng ¶ What if God so dispose that nowe also the hart of the Prince detesting the lewdnesse of their liues who professe your Gospell and seing the vntruth of your doctrine and lamenting this vniuersall decay of vertue proceding thereof and the vtter damnation of so many soules be wholy bent to restore the Catholique Religion of the Church and abandon all these wicked new deuises of Geneua What will you then do Dering Now after that Master Harding hath enquired much after Maister Iuells inconstancy and can espy little worthy reprehension in an vncharitable imagination he will néedes gesse what Maister Iuell would doe if he were againe put to his triall And héere with a sighing supposition he doeth féede his Popish veine and asketh What if God so dispose the hart of the Princes c. To this I aunswer that if God should so do his iust iudgement should be vpon the sinnes as well of the Prince as of the people For it is his mercy that we be not consumed But what if God will not so deale with his enheritance What if he wyll not shew his people such heauie things What if the king of Ashur shal ouercome vs no more What if we shall no more be led captiues into Babilon What if the téeth of the wicked are broken What if destructions be come to a perpetuall end Surely if our iniquities doe not turne awaye Gods blessings the hope of the vngodlye is like a thinne fome that is caried awaye with the streame As touching our Princesse hir hart is in the hande of the Lord and though we be no men pleasers yet this is the contentation of our conscience that we sée in hir the expresse tokens of the childe of God and we are witnesses vnto our selues how willinglye we obey hir Dauid was a good king though he would builde God an house thoughe it liked him not that the tabernacle shoulde be couered with Goates heare Ionathas was a good king very zealous though the high places were not taken away Ezechias was a very godly king though when God left him to trie him to knowe all that was in hys hart he found him faultie Iosias was a vertuous yong Prince as euer was in Ierusalem yet he was a feard of Necho king of Egipt Deborah was a good Quéene and is not blamed in the scriptures yet no doubt she was not with out fault and what if our Quéene that hath restored Gods religion should doe something that liked Maister Harding Doth he therfore thinke she will peruert the wayes of the Lorde and set vp againe his Romish Idolatries Their prophecies are now expired and that olde rotten Epistle before the confutation of the Apology is now forgotten From what stomaks such flatteries proceded it is not hard to iudge But peace be vpon Quéene Elizabeth and vpon the Israel of the Lorde For this great decay of vertue wherof Maister Harding complayneth it is not in the worde of God it is our corrupte manners This is an olde obiection made against true Religion S. Paul doth complaine of it that for this cause Gods name was euill spoken of among the gentiles So y e wicked Iewes would complaine Since we left to burne incence to the Quene of heauen we haue ben consumed with the sworde and with famine Yet the leauing off of their Idolatry was no cause of their euills Harding ¶ You did once confesse to mee plainly in Sarisbury when ye came thither in visitation that you neuer lyked the Supremacie of the temporal Princes ouer the Churche of England Did you not tell mee that it stode neither with Scripture nor with Doctours nor with the iudgment of the learned men of Germany Geneua and the parties where you had ben And why then preach you not this Doctrine abroade Dering As touching this priuate talke of Maister Iuell had with Maister Harding at Sarisbury concerning the Quéenes supremacie it is a malicious lye of Maister Hardings vncharitable hart If it were true yet I might well aunswere with the Philosophers that there are .iiii. sorts in whome is singular impudence in a woman that putteth on a mans garment in a gheast that thinketh him selfe as good as his hoste in him that will be talking of Princes wher he hath no occasion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in him that when a thing is tolde him in secrete doth tel it abroad openly Now if this accusation were true yet what witnesse hath Maister Harding to crye out of his impudency But what if it be false What if it be a shamelesse lye A christian man will saye with weeping eyes God amende the euill speakers But Demosthenes sayd to the people of Athens If you sée a Uiper or a byting Spider though they did neuer sting you yet you will kill them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lyke wyse O ye men of Athens when you sée a slaunderer hauing this vipers nature tary not till he sting you but kill him as sone as you se him If this accusation were true the very Gentiles could not abide it if it be false they thinke M. Harding not woorthy lyfe And that it is false his own words are a sufficient witnesse which say he spake after the opinion of the learned men in Germany and other where who do all graunt that their is no authority in the earth next vnder God aboue the authority of a Prince and that in all causes and estates ecclesiasticall and temporall euen as S. Peter sayth Submit your selues vnto all ordinauÌ„ce of man whether it be vnto the King as vnto the chiefe or vnto gouernours as vnto them that he sendeth This supremacy which S. Peter grauÌ„teth vnto the king the papist wil in no wise acknowledge but will haue the prowde Pope to treade vppon the Emperours neck and Princes to holde his stirrop while he goeth to horsbacke and waite bare foote at his gates to abide his papall pleasure Good Lord how was that worlde droonken with superstition We giue our Princesse hir authority we submit our selues to hir gouernmeÌ„t she is the anoynted of the Lord and chosen chiefe ruler of his church of Englande and God graunt hir many yeares to reigne till the fretting enuy be confounded in all flattering stomackes That euer Maister Iuell denied hir supremacy
your minde what hath moued you to enter so farre Next how faithfully you haue delt in the same Then what rewarde you may looke for in the ende Dering Of this wicked Epistle gentle reader thou art now come to the peroration although it be long and odious as the maner of olde buyldinges is to haue wide ruinous kitchins yet thou shalt do well to reade it to learne to take héede of such manner doing and although the filthy synckes be somewhat lothsome at the first yet by the grace of God the sauor shall not infect thée First saith he what moued you to enter so farre Doublesse Maister Harding the frée mercy of God the father poured vpon him through Iesus Christ this was the efficient cause His ende was to glorifie God that God might glorifie him againe for his faithfull dealing It hath ben such as flesh and bloude coulde suffer That which is wanting shall be accounted vnto him by the merit of his sauiour Iesus Christ. The rewarde that he looketh for is not of merite but of grace and it is the inheritaunce of that kingdome which was the porcion of Gods chosen ordeined from y e beginning Now these beginnings being thus Maister Hardings further running can be but hastening to new lyes what so euer he shall further say of Maister Iuells profession These other vngodly woords y t came after full of much bitternesse are not worthy aunswere Euery one may inuent them that delighteth in euill speaking and they can not cary any good man to mistrust Harding ¶ If this councell can not sincke into you if neither this nor any other the like aduise shall take place with you what is my parte to do but to leaue you to your selfe and to the will of God Dering After sundry waies atempted how Maister Harding might bring our doinges into suspition at the last very modestlye he doth leaue vs vnto God but by and by he breaketh out againe he cannot suppresse his coler and for a full proofe that all his fayer speaking is hipocrisy he raueth streight so out of measure that he doth excéede him selfe not prouing anye thing but as if his worde were Apollos oracle he presumeth with out controlle to speake what he listeth and goeth away so fast in his frothy matter that contrary to his woonted cunning he forgetteth how to speake for after a great heape of words of which euery one according to his number doth specifie a new vntruth he writeth thus Leaue to do as not only through your whole Replye but also through your first article you haue done Who euer spake after this maner what writer what scholer what childe when 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth signifie nothing This phrase of Maister Hardings shal be allowable but that surely he shall not onelye neuer proue but also not before he set out his next booke After this vncomelye speaking he bringeth in very absurd matter and chargeth Maister Iuell bicause he bolstreth vp his Religion with the authorities of late wryters Yet where Maister Harding bringeth one sentence out of the olde fathers giue me leaue in a doutfull matter to vse one of Maister Hardings gesses Maister Iuell I thinke bringeth twenty But what forceth he to speake that speaketh he knoweth not what Harding ¶ If you intend to write against any of our Treatises cul not out our sayings forth of a whole heape as your maner is leauing what toueheth the point in controuersie and taking parte that being put alone and besides the rest semeth to haue lesse force Dering It were hard to finde such an other Caligula that so approueth this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a shamlesse behauiour in him selfe He chargeth Maister Iuel with culling out of sentences who layeth forth his whole aunswere word for worde and findeth no fault with him selfe that skippeth at aduentures sometime two leaues at once and aunswereth not a worde Againe about this he vseth a heap of vaine words as though in much bibble babble all controuersy were decyded This maner of wryting doeth make me remember a certaine Lacedomian which tooke a nightingale and pulling of hir fethers when he saw hir little body thou art euen a voice saide he and nothing else and surely Maister Harding is but a nightingale take away his fethers that is his gaye wordes and there is nothing but a little withered carcase vnderneth He accuseth Maister Iuell of a childish wit but with how childish a iudgement who séeth not I will make no comparison of the man he hath nothing which he hath not receiued if any man doe not thinke hym as well learned as anye Englishe Louanist if Apollo might awarde him his hyre he shoulde haue Midas eares It forceth not what correction Maister Harding vseth to discredite his Replie All the learned men in Englād will seale it with their iudgement y t it sheweth a rare replier He talketh of burning it and no doubt him selfe woulde cary a fagot to helpe make the fyre but it is cast in a good moulde and shall kéepe his fashion notwithstanding this rable of new carpenters that woulde disfigure it Harding ¶ Remember Maister Iewel it is the cause of God you would seme to treate God hath no nede of your Lyes Leaue wrangling ieasting scorning mocking scoffing Contend not about wordes and syllables forsaking the matter Obscure not the truth with vaine Rethorique ouerwhelme it not with your abundance of woordes Bring not confusion to the matter when it is cleare of it selfe make not shew of victorie where you are least able to answere Make not your reader to laugh where he would be taught Affect not so much to be pleasant seeke rather to be a true handler of Gods causes Put not the hope of your victory in the coldenesse of your Aduersary but in the truth of the matter Refuse not to stand to their iudgemēt alleadged against you whose witnesse you bring for you Allow not a writer in one place condemning him in an other place Dering Nowe sure if Mayster Harding were a boy in the Grammer schoole for this pretie tale he deserued to go to play I haue not séene one in copia verborum varie a sentence more handsomly And how shall all this be aunswered Euen as Cleomenes aunswered the Ambassadours from Samos to such a long oration of so little purpose the whole hangeth so loosely that the beginning I can not remember and therefore I vnderstand not the middest but such things as are in the end are altogither disalowed For Mayster harding sayth in the ende he is a colde aduersary if he meane colde in religion it may be well graunted if otherwise colde it may not be alowed looke what heate of wordes eyther will or abilitie can vtter in his Epistle and Reioynder there is nothing wanting Hardyng ¶ If you wil vse the testimonie of the Scholemen and Canonists consider it to bee reason that you subscribe to their fayth It is well knowne
The number of Communicantes is no parte of the Communion which is bothe a very childishe and grosse absurditie For how is there a Communion where is no Communicantes Thus thou séest good Reader this argument is not yet good But the better to consider of it bicause maister Harding will néedes haue it considered let vs take the view of it once againe This is the argument What so euer is beside Oblation Consecration and Participation is no parte of Christes institution But the number of Communicantes in one place is beside these thrée Ergo the number is not of Christes instition What may be said of this whole argument I haue already forewarned thée Now let vs hear what M. Harding saith to it him selfe There is nothing héere saith he to be denyed but the Minor what if it were so What is now the Minor Read the Reioinder thus he saith It is denyed in the Minor that the number of Communicantes together in one place is of Christes institution Why how now M. Harding is this the best argument you can make Marke good Reader this must be the Minor The number of Communicants together is no parte of Christes institution Lay now the Maior to it and the argument ariseth thus What so euer is beside Consecration Oblation and Participation is no part of Christes Institution The number of Communicants is no part of Christes institution The Conclusion is as before Ergo the number of Cōmunicants is no part of Christes institution Did euer M. Iewel father vpon M. Harding suche a mis-shapen argument This is his owne or else he belieth him selfe when he saith that this is his Minor But suche sleights he can vse to vnwinde him selfe out of danger A pretie conueyaunce of a litle forgerie among the ignorant might haue escaped blame But I wil not iudge M. Harding God knoweth whether he did it of purpose or no. This in déede should haue ben his Minor But the Communion of many togither is beside these thrée so the Communion might haue bene without Communicants which is a great absurditie and so consequently M. Hardings argument very euil As touching further triall of this vntruth his wrangling is not worth the consideration Only as he hath set forthe his argument to proue a number of Communicants no part of Christes institution so he shall giue me leaue to propone likewise some arguments for proofe that the Lordes supper may not be celebrate by one alone First thus we argue Christ said take ye eate ye drink ye all do ye this But this is spoken to many Ergo there must be a number To this argument M. Harding maketh this answer You must get you better proofe or else admit the Conclusion of my argument A man would thinke he were a craking souldier that is thus well pleased with his owne doing but if with this craking custome he haue not gotten the craking qualities he shall heare other argumentes though there can be none better It was not among the Iewes lawfull to eate the Pascall Lambe without a sufficient number Ergo the flesh of our sauiour Christ who is our Passeouer must not be eaten by the Priest alone Likewise it may be said of the gathering of Manna in the morning and of the drinking of the rocke I doubt not but here M. Harding can make a spedy answer with many comparisons betwene the figure and the truthe but the good conscience may easily iudge Beside this S. Paule him selfe dothe giue vs in this case a very good argumēt he saith My brethrē When you come togither to eate tary one for another Ergo we must not receiue alone The bread which we breake is the Communion of the body of Christ. Ergo there must be a number at the breaking of it And for a full proofe of this matter Christ sayth I haue earnestly desired to eate this Passeouer with you before I suffer Ergo the Priest must not eate it alone Thus we sée what we are taught by the scriptures cōcerning the number of Communicants and of what value M. Hardings argument is which he himself hath made after his owne fashion Whereby thou maist the better iudge what is to be thought of all those other which M. Iewel ascribeth vnto him The B. of Saris. There is not one peece hereof that either is true in it selfe or agreeth with other Harding The .71 vntruth Some part of it is proued to be true Dering The argument which M. Iuel saithe hath no piece either true or hanging of an other Is thus before alleaged The Sacrament must be receiued after Consecration Ergo a number is not necessary Héere saith M. Harding This is true y ◠the sacrament must be receiued after Consecration But how doeth he proue it Sure with no reason but a great deale of railing saying that M. Iuel is led with the sprite of malice that he will reuoke this when he is in his right minde Or if he will not let him take manducate bibite eate ye drink ye out of the gospel As touching M. Hardings railing bicause his mouth is no slāder I wil let it passe His reasō is this if cōsecration must not be before y e Communion then let manducate bibite be takē out of the gospel One that had so long disputed of good arguments should now haue taken héede how he had made one so ill This will in no wise holde except you turne him contrary and so ouerturne M. Hardings cause with his owne proofe For before y e Euangelists speake the words of Consecration this is my body they say all take and eate so that this foloweth very well if Consecration must be before receiuing then take manducate and bibite out of the Gospel For in the Gospell they are placed before How M. Hardings argument hangeth if Consecration be not before the Communion then take manducate bibite out of the Gospell neither M. Harding him self nor all his Doctors are able to tell vs. And this did Gabriel Biel sée well inoughe who considering this place of the Euangelists that they were bid take and eate before the woords of Consecration pronounced he doeth not as M. Harding doeth speake neither rime nor reason only to mocke the people But he saith plainly that the common opinion is Christ spake not as the Euangelists report take eat this is my body but quite contrary this is my body take eate thus hath Biel found a figure 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to set the cart before the horse and so maketh his religion to agrée with the gospell Now as touching this vntruthe where M. Harding saith so boldly that the bread must haue these wordes this is my body pronounced ouer it before it be receiued first he hath Mathew Marke Luke and Paule against him who all bid first eate and then pronounce these wordes Againe it is confessed by Gabriel Biel that we must thinke Christe spake
go I think to no mortall man to be more strengthned The B. of Saris. It pleaseth M. Hard. to alledge the one end and conceale the other Harding The .76 vntruthe The .10 diuis I conceale not the other Dering If M. Harding doe alleage bothe these ends of the Sacraments that is To ioyne vs vnto God to ioyne vs one with an other then let this be vntrue if he do not then for my pore skil me thinketh he concealeth it The B. of Saris. M. Harding saith the Communion signifieth not the Communicating of many together Harding The .77 vntruthe I say not so Dering Héere M. Harding and M. Stapleton do agrée so iumpe in one vntruthe that it appeareth euidently their religion is either very vniforme or at least they haue bene both instructed in one schole Thus saith M. Harding The Cōmunion is not so called bicause many or as M. Iuel teacheth the whole congregatiō receiued together in one place These words M. Iuel reporteth thus He saith the Cōmunion is not so called of the Communicating of many together This is vntrue saith M. Har. I say not so this is vntruth saith M. Sta. he saith not so I require héere of thée good Christian Reader to viewe the woords well and finde out any fault if thou canst Surely I thinke thou canst finde none like as sure it is M. Iuel did thinke of none But these two pair of Egles eyes what haue they espied Forsothe wher M. Harding saith it is not called the Communion of Communicating togither in one place M. Iuel thus reporteth it it is not called the Communion of Communicating togither and leaueth quite out in one place which maketh all the matter this distinction of Communicating together and Communicating together in one place bicause it is somewhat straunge these men should haue done well to haue proued it by some Doctor Sure M. Harding if he may goe for a Doctor he teacheth vs plainely in an other place that to Communicate together is to Communicate in one place For thus he writeth but that they should Communicate together that is to say in one place that we deny By this Doctor it appeareth that together and in one place is all one and then this can be no vntruth The B. of Saris. How be it in plaine speche it is not the receiuing of the Sacrament that worketh our ioyning with God Harding The .78 vntruthe The worthy receiuing worketh this effect Dering Doth it so Are we not ioyned to God before we eate the Sacrament S. Paule saith Elegit nos in ipso He hath chosen vs in Christ before the foundations of the worlde were laid muche more are we his before we receiue the sacrament Concerning sacraments the same Apostle sayth of Abraham Signum accepit circumcisionis c. After he receiued the signe of Circumcision as the seale of the righteousnesse of y e faith which he had when he was vncircumcised And shall we be taught now that they be no more seales and witnesses but causes of our iustification God kéepe vs from suche spiders that gather poison of so swéete floures And that thou maist take the more héede of this mannes doctrine I must first tell thee that for proofe of it he bringeth not one worde of Scripture but pretendeth the aucthority of Chrysostome and Cyril I would answere the aucthoritie for suche Doctors saue that the labor were long and not necessary For I will declare out of the Scripture that the doctrine is hereticall and thereby thou shalt be satisfied and maist further imagine that these holy Fathers names are too muche abused In this vntruthe of M. Hardings he teacheth two points of Doctrine the one that by and thorow the worthy receiuing of the Sacrament we be ioyned vnto God the other that the Sacraments are not only seales and pledges but also they containe grace Now let vs sée how these two Articles agrée with the worde of God And first whither the receiuing of the Sacrament do ioyne vs vnto God and as M Harding saith putteth also into vs life immortall Our Sauior Christ in the Gospell after S. Iohn doth often tel his Disciples how they are made one with God yet in that holy Gospel as in all other scriptures there is not one worde that telleth vs we be made one with him by receiuing the Sacrament But contrarily by plaine words we be taught what vertue this Sacrament hath that it is onely a signe of that grace which we haue receiued as shall appeare héereafter In the sixthe chapter of Iohn where Christ reproueth the fleshly hearers of his worde and calleth them to a true beliefe in him the Iewes make this answere What signe shewest thou then that we may sée it Our Fathers did eat Manna c. Héere is first shewed what the Iewes thought of Manna not that by it they were ioyned to God or receiued grace but that it was a signe a token and a pledge of their frée election how they were a peculiar people vnto God This Manna being a figure of this Sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ now lest vnto the Churche Christ maketh this aunswere I am the bread of life he that commeth to me shall not hunger and he that beleueth in me shall not thirst for euer By this we learne that to beleue in Christ is to haue euerlasting life and as Manna was a signe to the Israelites so the Communion of the body and blood of Christ is a signe to vs that this promisse shall be made sure It is written in the Prophet and all thy children shall be taught of the Lord of this saying our sauior Christ teacheth vs how we be ioyned vnto him and sayth No man can come to me except the father which sent me draw him And to this ende it is written by the Prophet Ieremie After those dayes sayeth the Lord I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts and I will be their God and they shalbe my people Of this we learne that if we come vnto Christ the Father must draw vs if we be his people he must be our inward teacher if we be vnited vnto him he must first come and dwell in our hearts whereby it is plaine that we must be first engrafted in Christ before we can worthely receiue his holy Sacramentes Furthermore it foloweth in S. Iohn he that eateth my fleshe and drinketh my bloud dwelleth in me and I in him Therefore we must dwell in him and he in vs or we can not eate his body and drink his bloud And the wicked which dwel not in him can not receiue him Again where our Sauior Christ doeth teache very largely how we be ioyned vnto him and become one with him euen as his Father and he is one he sheweth that this societie doeth come vpon vs of his Fathers frée mercy apprehended by Faithe of his woorde And for
on the other parte séeing the testimonies are so plaine and many what meaneth maister Harding to make this any vntruthe But what dareth he not doe to make vp his number that affirmeth this one vntruthe fiue times Now by the way least I shold séeme to speake against the vse of the sunday I say and professe that we cā not vse it too reuerently Anathasius saith that the sabboth of the Iewes was by Christ turned into our sunday but whether that were so or no it resteth vpon Athasius aucthoritie it may be well thought that it is true Christ will haue vs gather together in his name And S. Iohn calleth it the Lords day S. Luke and S Paule the first day of the weke in which the Apostles assembled the people therfore thou art bound to giue all obedience and holinesse vnto the Lorde on that day But take héede now thou deceiue not thy self Looke not after any licentiousnesse on the munday thinke not that God more accompteth of one day than other As on sunday thou commest into the congregation and shewest thy selfe thankfull vnto the Lord for his benefites so on euery day thou must shew thy selfe thankfull and shew the same obedience in testimony of thy conscience which on the sunday thou shewest in open vsage and thus thou shalt kéepe holy the sabboth day The B. of Saris. S. Ambrose saith euery weeke we must celebrate the oblation althoughe not euery day vnto straungers yet vnto the inhabitants at least twise a weeke Harding The .134 vntruthe This place is altogether falsified Dering This vntruthe may be hardly verified if the place be altogether falsified But maister Harding dothe so often speake vntruely that now we may not beleue him w tout good proofe Let vs sée then what he saith S. Ambrose Omni hebdomada offerendum est etiam si non quotidie peregrinis incolis tamen vel bis in hebdomada These words M. Iuel dothe Englishe as before appeareth This translation saith maister Harding is altogether false But why saith he so Let him bar distinctions and proue it if he can Undoubtedly if snow be not black this interpretation is true but why dothe maister Harding finde fault wiih it Thus he saith offerre peregrinis is to offer for straungers not to straungers and why is it so forsoothe by this rule all manner of verbes put acquisitiuely that is to say with this signe for after them wil haue a datiue case it might haue pleased him to haue alleaged his rule truely then it should haue bene thus hauing this signe to or for after them so notwithstanding this rule yet the interpretation had bene good but graunt the rule what a reason is this all verbes that haue this signe for after them require a datiue case Ergo offerre peregrinis is to offer for straungers He might as well conclude Ergo loquor tibi is to speake for thée or dare tibi to giue it for thée But M. Harding why would not this rule haue serued héere verbes compounded with these propositions prae con sub ob in and inter will haue a datiue case Well may we haue some opinion of our Louanists English but sure their Logicke and their Latine is but very base M. Dorman alleaging in his boke this text of S. Iohn Diabolus est mendax pater eius doth English it thus the diuel is a lier and so was his father before him Was he wel in his wit or was he yet a dreaming or is his Diuinitie so slender that he knoweth not who is the Deuils father Sure ignorance may not excuse a man that speaketh blasphemie the Deuil hath no father only God created him an Angell Erasmus fearing such sléeping Diuines doth turne it thus eius rei pater and father of that thing If M. Dorman had consulted with him and not so sodenly become of a iangling lawyer an vngodly Diuine he wold haue written more aduisedly but as hath bene héeretofore aptly obiected to him he gate vpon the bridge and was made a bacheler and so by muche haste ouershot himselfe muche like as maister Harding doth héere who Englisheth offerre peregrinis to offer for straungers Alowe this for good Latine and his distinctions for good reason and then goe yoke Foxes and milke hée Goates his vntruthe shall rise at his owne pleasure The B. of Saris. The .28 Diuision Here Master Harding notably betrayeth him selfe laying forth for a countenaunce a fiue of Chrysostoms words and the same nothing to the matter hewing and mangling them as he listeth best Harding The .135 vntruthe Those words be to the matter The .136 vntruthe I mangle them not Dering What M. Harding meaneth by this vntruth I know not vnlesse it be as M. Iuel saith notably to betray himselfe His purpose is to proue priuate Masse as all men doe know but these words do not proue it as he himself confesseth Reioind fol. 206. the conclusion of these is plaine therfore these words are not to the purpose Neither shal this other vntruth néede any long answer He can do little y t cannot say nay M. Iuels Replie doth wel sufficiently proue it M. Hardings gainsaying is not sufficient for an vntruthe Read the Replie Fo. 65. The B. of Saris. Chrysostome saith this sacrifice is but one bicause it hath relation vnto that one sacrifice of Christ. Harding The .137 vntruthe He rendreth no suche cause Dering Bicause M. Hard. cā not blame the allegation he findeth fault w t M. Iuels meaning and saith S. Chrysostom giueth no such cause But whether he giueth any such or no not M. Hardīgs vnderstāding but Chrysostoms words must be the iudge thus he writeth Quo modo vna est hostia non multae Quia semel oblata est oblata est in sancta sāctorū Hoc autē sacrificiū exemplar est illius How is it one oblation not many He answereth bicause it was once offred it was offred into y e holy place but this sacrifice is an example of that These are his very words héere he speaketh plain the cause why we sacrificing or cōmunicating in sundry places haue but one sacrifice or cōmunion is bicause our sacrifice is an exāple of y e one sacrifice of Christ. If M. Harding can find any other vnderstanding of these words then sure his maner of vnderstāding is to make words sound what him list But vnderstād he how and what he wil Chrysostoms words are plaine Ther are many places in the olde doctors which teach the very same but it is néedelesse to reherse them when our sauior Christ saith Do this in my remembrāce Except M. Harding wil haue no relation betwene the thing and the remembrāce of the thing what meaneth he to make this vntruthe The B. of Saris. Chrisostome saith this sacrifice is an example of that Harding The .138 vntruthe Chrysostome saith not so that this is an example of that this place is fowly corrupt Dering In the
vntruth Solennia doeth not import a solemne companie Dering Yet it séemeth so Maister Harding to as wel learned as you are But this is your common fashion to belie Maister Iuels words and then to say they be vntrue Yt séemeth saith he to import a solemne coÌ„panie What if it be not so yet it séemeth so But what if it doe import a great companie What if it can not stande with your priuate Masse Sure then is Soters decrée not worth alleaging as your vntruthe is not worth the quoting The reason that you bring out of Tullie were it not in your booke yet by the value I would gesse it yours Solemne say you doeth signifie sometime a custome Ergo when it is attributed to an action it doeth not import a companie This is verie like one of your owne arguments it hangeth so losely For the antecedent is false and the argument doth not follow But why speaketh Maister Harding against his owne knowledge he is assured it is not named in matters of religion but it signifieth a great company of persons and muche sumptuousnesse of the things so ill may his priuate Masse be solennis Mos solennis sacrarum saith Lucretius the solempne and sumptuous manner of the sacrifices And Virgil calleth them arae solennes many and costly altares so pompae solennes burials in solemne order vota solennia vowes made solemnly in the company of many and Tullie Solenne statutum sacrificium a sacrifice done sumptuously and appointed times and in M. Hardings Portuise sacris solennijs iuncta sunt gaudia to solemne seruice there is annexed ioyes This aucthoritie is sufficient against master Harding He wil say nothing I trow against his Portuise If he wil we will then charge him with the Popes owne aucthoritie Innocentius tertius shewing the cause why in their single holydayes they say not the Créede nor Gloria in excelsis as wel as they do on their double feasts wryteth thus vt inter commemorationem solennitatem differentiam ostendatur that there may be a difference betwéene a commemoration and a solemnitie Loe héere is Pope Innocent flat against maister Harding concerning the nature of the word and yet he is content to speake euen as Soter doth and say of the other Masses missarum solennia Thus we sée these vntruthes sometime can not agrée nether with their holy father the Pope neither yet with the Portuise The B. of Saris. Soter requireth to this action only the company of three Harding The .147 vntruthe He requireth not .iij. but .ij. at the least Dering Note good reader this vntruthe is now twise made in the 144. vntruthe and againe here Yet if thou way it well thou shalt sée it was not worth repetition In the other place the sense was very obscure and here the words are very strauÌ„ge To make this solemne Masse saith M. Iuel iii. are required Not so saith M. Harding the priest requireth but two to make answere But what if it happen that these two haue a thirde priest to say the Masse Soter séemeth to meane so when he saith vt sit ipse tertius that the priest may be the thirde I can not tel all their misteries It may be they haue a custome that two may make answere when no man sayth the Masse Or if they haue not then this is not vntrue The B. of Saris. It may be doubted whether dominus vobiscum were parte of the Liturgie in Soters time Harding The .148 vntruthe This cannot be wel and reasonably doubted Dering If well and reasonably doe not helpe out this vntruthe it hathe then neither goodnesse nor shew of probabilitie Now what well and reasonably may doe in this matter it shall well and reasonably appeare if you marke Damasus woords he saith there was nothing red in the Churche on sundayes sauing some Epistle of the Apostle and some chapter of the Gospell If Damasus say true then it may be doubted bothe well and reasonably whether Dominus vobiscum were red or noe This saying of Damasus maister Iuel dothe alledge and vpon little searche it will easily appeare by all Ecclesiasticall recordes that in Soters time and many yeares after there was no other solemnitie in their ministration sauing reading or expounding the scriptures and some prayers which the whole congregation did make together some say that Peter vsed to celebrate with the Lordes prayer only Paule did preache vnto them as appeareth in the Actes Iustine speaking of the Communion in his time â–ª saith Post precationem nos salutamus osculo mutuo deinde affertur precipuo fratri panis caâ—ix aqua dilutus c. After our prayers we salute one an other with a kisse then the bread is brought to the chiefest brother and the cuppe of wine and water Then the mynister giueth thanks vnto God in the name of the Sonne and of the holy ghost and the whole people doe answere Amen And if these words are not yet plaine inough by which we may doubt whether Dominus vobiscum were then in the Liturgie Iustine saith againe Die solis vrbanorum rusticorum coetus fiunt vbi apostolorum prophetarumque litera quoad fieri potest preleguntur c. On sunday we haue our metings bothe of the towne and the countrey where the Apostâ—es and prophets wrytings are red vnto vs so long as time wil serue then our mynister dothe make an exâ—ortation willing vs to folow the vertue and goodnesse whereof we reade Then we rise altogether and make our prayers Lâ—e héere is a full description of the Communion in Iustinus Martyr who liued in Soters time And yet in all this not one word making mention of Dominus vobiscum yet is maister Harding so importune in his vntruthes that he dareth boldly affirme and yet hath no grounde that Dominus vobiscum was then parte of their seruice Let him shewe but one sufficient recorde for proofe of that he wryteth and let him haue his vntruthe I know our decretall Epistles would be of this age and they defile Gods sacraments as becommeth that adulterous generation But those epistles as I haue sufficiently already shewed are far vnworthy those godly fathers whose names they beare The B. of Saris. Further this same Soter requireth that bothe these two and as many others as be present make answere vnto the priest Harding The .149 vntruthe He requireth it not this is vtterly false Dering Note good reader maister Hardings impudencie and take héede of his lying spirite he saith very censoure like this is vtterly false and in his Reioinder raileth much at M. Iuel for falsifying the Doctours and yet most impudently he dothe vtterly belie him Read his booke he doth not bring one letter to proue that he saith Belike he is wel persuaded his friends wil beleue him if he doe but say the worde but to bring some proofe against maister Hardings bare word vpon these words of Soter let him haue two at the least to aunswere
if they be moe saith maister Iuel then by Soters will they must all answer Upon this master Harding falleth in his railing vaine and saith it is vtterly false But let him say so his mouthe is no slaunder The gloser on this Decrée moueth a doubt whether these two should be ministers or lay men or of what sort else And he answereth that it is plaine inough they shold be mynisters Yet saith he again that is not certaine quia populus respondent Amen For all the people must likewise answer Amen Loe heâ—re y e glose doth flatly verifie this vntruth And in an other place Gracian speaking of the people which heare their common prayer saith thus populus adâ—d quod planè intelligit respondeat Amen let the people say Amen to that they do plainly vnderstand Héere beside that the seruice must be in a knowne tong Gracian saith plainly al the people must say Amen In this next vntruthe before the like is shewed out of Iustinus that all the people must say Amen the same may be proued by all the wryters of that age notwithstanding M. Harding to kéepe tale of his vntruâ—hes against Gracian against the glose against Iustinus Mâ—rtyr against al recordes saith it is vtterly false But examine the places and so trie his credite The B. of Saris. By M. Hardings minde the Priests deuotion ought not to stay for lacke of companie Harding The .150 vntruthe There can no suche meaning be gathered of my words Dering This as it may be thought is a very plaine vntruthe maister Iuel reporting that of maister Harding which him selfe saith can not be gathered of his words But bicause he hathe bene often found faultie in as bolde asseuerations as this is it shall not be amisse to sée his woords Thus he saith Well none commeth this is not a sufficient cause why the godly priest enflamed with the loue of God féeling him self hungry and thirsty after the heauenly foode and drinke shold be kept from it And haue not these words a good plain meaning May not one reporte of these words that a priest may say Masse alone Why then dothe he score vp this vntruthe Forsoothe héere is a distinction of no bodies comming either no body may come to answer or no body may come to receiue and M. Harding meaneth y t the priest may goe forwarde though no body come to receiue After this sort I thinke spake Heraclitus when he would haue no body to vnderstand him But this is no plain dealing to speake first so doubtfully and then score vp an vntruth if one vnderstand it not And thus much grauÌ„ting this distinction of no body If thou require further discharge of this vntruthe I will shewe thee good proofe why M. Iuels saying ought not to be blamed notwithstanding this distinction Lâ—ke on Soters decrée thou shalt sée the glose alleageth his Canon law to proue that the priest may sometime celebrate if he haue but one present sometime if there be no mâ— but him selfe This then being established by their lawe that the Priest may say Masse alone maister Hardings vntruthe may controll the Pope it maketh little against maister Iuel The B. of Saris. By this decree these two were bound to receiue or to departe Harding The .151 vntruthe That decree bindeth only the clergie Dering Before we had a distinction of no body now to quite that barren matter héere is a distinction of all men Let all men receiue saith Calixtus or goe out of the Church that is saith maister Harding all men of the clergie not all men of the laitie Thus neither all thing nor nothing nor something nor any thing shall want a distinction if by plaine dealing the matter be not good But O maister Harding 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 true speache is playne Nowe for the Christian Reader least these distinctions should deceiue thee I must now and then admonishe â—â—ée that they be but false stuffe and this shall well appeare in this present matter if I teache thée that in the primatiue Churche there did none abide that did not Communicate When Christ did first institute his supper it was so all that were present did Communicate He gaue commaundement that it should be so vsed and said Drinke ye all of this And that the Apostles and those other who bebeloued did thâ—s it appeareth in the Actes where without exceptiâ—n S. Luke saith they continued daily in breaking of breade And againe they met together to breake bread This was after obserued among the Corinthians as appeareth by S. Paule who plainely teacheth that they come together to eate the Lordes supper and least we shoulde thinke any excepted in the verses folowing he addeth euery one And for a further proofe of his meaning he biddeth them one tary for an other By all this it is certaine that all that were present receiued Upon this saith Calixtus let all receiue that will not depart out of the Church And he bringeth a reason to this Decrée Sic enim apostoli statuerunt For so the Apostles haue appoynted from the Apostles time through all ages till iniquitie beganne to haue the vpper hande it was alwayes an holy lawe For all that were present to Communicate And it is condemned of the fathers as great presumption and impudencie to looke on and be no partaker as it is other where sufficiently declared And were not maister Harding set on euill vnderstanding he would learne by that vse of the primatiue Churche when they sent away Catechumeni those that were beginners in Christianitie that it was not lawfull for any to be an idle looker on Sure in his priuate Masse they may loke on that list For this vntruthe bicause Calixtus him selfe dothe referre vs to the Apostles example when maister Harding can proue by the Apostles that those whome S. Luke mentioneth to haue daily mette and the Corinthians to whome S. Paule wryteth to haue bene all ministers then these distinctions of all men and no body shal goe for good Read the .221 vntruthe The B. of Saris. It is determined by the glose that these two were Priests or Deacons and so this decree of Soter agreeth with an other of Anacletus Harding The .152 vntruth It is not assuredly determined by the glose The .153 vntruthe It agreeth not Dering If this assuredly doe not helpe out with an vntruthe then assuredly this is no vntruthe but for as muche as assuredly is put in by maister Harding assuredly this is no plaine dealing and sure it is if suche vnsure demeanor wer taken from maister Hardings assured vntruthes the surety of good religion shold in déede appeare and this vnsauery wrangling shold be contemned for this vntruthe it is altogether shamelesse The glose moueth this question whether these two should be of the clergie or of the laitie or of either one and it maketh this answere satis videtur quod debent esse duo clerici
dominicum vntill the next sunday Then of like they receiued euery sunday This argumeÌ„t saith M. Harding is slender a learned man will be ashamed of it And he answereth it with an other argument if thou wilt haue a paterne of a good one marke it well The wordes are saith he quando communicat when she dothe communicate Ergo she did not communicate euery sunday He that will reprehend M. Iuels argument it is reason himself should haue made a better By suche reasons we may conclude what we wil. When she did communicate therfore she did it not euery sunday Then when we go to dinner we sit downe Therfore we goe not to dinner euery day Suche prooues may be soone made Biside this M. Harding chalengeth the translation but that is not worthe answering Alias is commonly vsed for the next fallacia alia aliam trudit Nos alia ex alijs in fata vocamur Aliud ex alio malum Ex alio in aliud vicissitudo And if we say in Englishe we must tary for another terme euery wise man doth vnderstand it we must tary til the next terme Thus hear appeareth no insufficiencie in M. Iuels proofe but muche folowing M. Hardings vntruthe The B. of Saris. Likewise Socrates writeth thus in Greke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say to haue a congregation or assembly by theÌ„selues Harding The .168 There are no suche words in that place in Socrates Dering False quotation needeth no great excuse The B. of Saris. Let Missa be taken for the Masse that is for the ministration of the Sacraments Harding The .169 It doth not signify the ministration of the sacrameÌ„ts Dering Betwéene M. Stapleton and M. Harding maister Iuel can say nothing without blame The sixth vntruthe noted by maister Iuel out of maister Hardings answer is this S. Andrew said the Communion and not the Masse In the returne of this vntruth saith maister Stapleton you speake fondly the Masse and the Communion is al one Héere saith maister Iuel let the Masse be taken for the Communion That is an vntruthe saith maister Harding it can not be so taken Thus we sée these men are at a point speake maister Iuel what he wil so long as he speaketh truthe he shall not escape blame Whether Missa may signifie the Communion or no. Reade more in the .17 vntruthe The B. of Sarisb Verily it is prouided by the decree it selfe that in priuate Chappels there should be a lawfull and an ordnarie company Harding The .170 vntruthe It was not prouided Dering To make this vntruthe perfect M. Harding hath bound it with a double asseueration verily verily this is a false lie But surely surely there is little honesty to vse so muche wrangling where the matter it selfe is plaine The words of the decrée are these vt ibi missas teneat propter fatigationem familiae iusta ordinatione permittimus we permit that in due order for the wearinesse of his housholde he may haue Masse in his priuate Oratorie Now though maister Harding goe not the right way to proue his priuate Masse that goeth to séeke it out in priuate chappels yet let vs way well what this permission is The decrée saith iusta ordinatione or iusto ordine so without due order it might not be not in priuate Oratories and to haue it with order was to haue a number of Communicantes So this permission yet makes no priuate Masse Againe the decrée saith propter fatigatiouem familiae for the wearinesse of the housholde whereby it appeareth the householde must communicate For if they should not haue gon to church how should they haue ben werie of going theÌ„ was there not yet priuate Masse Thirdly it was graâ—â—ted in those parishes in which beside that householde there was legittimus ordinariusque conuentus in which there was beside a sufficient companie What neded this exception if the Priest might haue sayd Masse receiued aâ—one Litle companie will serue to make one communicate Thus we sée Maister Harding doeth no where speake more aduisedly than where he maketh most constant asseueration The B. of Saris. Vincentius writeth after Gregorius was dead Bonifacius ruled the church of Rome This Boniface obtained of the Emperour Phocas that the church of Rome should be the head of all churches and that bicause the church of Constantinople wrote it selfe by that title The next yeare after that Augustine that was called the English mens bishop died The yeare folowing Iohn the Almonar was in great fame at which time also Mahomet first spred his religion in Arabia Harding The .171 vntruth Vincentius vvriteth not so Dering If thou knowest not what wrangling is now learne Maister Harding findeth here diuerse faults The first that Bonifacius was not next Gregorie and true I think it be Sauinianus was one yere betwene and what skilleth that to priuate Masse Or why should Maister Iuel of purpose speake here vntruly It is very probable he might forget the order of the Popes that was so occupied to set out Gods religion This was not worth the noting Another fault is where Vincentius saith Augustine the firstâ— English Bishop Maister Iuel saith thus Augustine that was called the English bishop What contention aboute words is this â–ª Another fault is bi cause he alleageth not one sentâ—nce where Vincentius doeth commend the Almonars libâ—ralitie Except Maister Iuell would haue filled his booke with idle words this was nothing necessarie He searcheth 〈…〉 what I killeth it then to alleage hiâ— coâ—â—â—â—dations We reade in Plato that a 〈…〉 was euer wonâ— to make suche aâ—nswerâ—s â–ª when Cherephon asketh Polus what science Gorgias professeth Polus always is vp with a speciall commendation of it and neuer tels what it is But Socrates sayd that was nothing to the purpose there was no man dispraised it so what helpeth it when we aske of the Almonars age to alleage Vincentius commendation of him No man disprayseth him we séeke for his age we enquire not of his qualities lette the man alone The fourthe faulte is that he parteth this saying What tyme Mahomet spred his religion in Arabia in the distincte letter of the Doctours allegations This doyng helpeth Maister Iuell neuer a whit For if it be true what skilleth it who sayth it Againe if the Printer make not his letters well Maister Iuell is not to blame Here are foure faulteâ— founde without salte or â—auoure yet there is an other and that is that aboute this time Mahomet spred not his religion For he beganne sayth Maister Harding in the latter time of Heraclitus the Emperour Maister Harding is verie supersticious in computation of times or this would séeme to bée a verie â—ender 〈◊〉 Phocas began his raigne in the yeare of our Lord .604 three yeares after that Bonifacius was made Pope â–ª 607. it was foure yeares after that Iohn the Almonar shoulde saye this Masse Anno .610 within .xix. yeareâ— after in the ninetene yeare of Heraclitus
his priuate Masse hath sought for Iohn Almonar in a priuate Chapple but the question is moued of the open church This Iohn Almonar liued at the least .610 yeares after Christ. The question is of .600 yeares onely So this fable may be well reiected both for that it is nothing to the purpose and if it were yet it is without the compasse of .600 yeares Yet Maister Iuel admitting the proofe doeth proue that it is a verie fable His reason is bicause no man might saye Masse at home Here let vs make the best of Maister Hardings aunswere and it is thus They might not say Masse in theyr houses but they might say them in their Chappels This aunswere is very absurde For who would say masse in his parlour or hall or kitchin hauing a Chapple And it is knowne to be false and taken away by Gracian saying Vnicuique fidelium in domo sua oratorium habere licet et ibi orare missas autem ibi concelebrare non licet euery man may haue a Chapple in his house pray there but he may not haue Masse in it Thus appeareth how vaine Maister Hardings exception is against these former authorities for that they haue in Domibus in their houses when Gracian alleaging the councell of Auleria vseth this word oratorium a Chaple notwithstanding Maister Harding concludeth thus we must seeke for better stuffe this is nothing worth so much securitie haue these men promised them selues that whatsoeuer they speake they think it shalbe beleued The B. of â–ª Saris. Maister Harding translateth falsâ—ly cum benedixisset sancta â–ª when he had consecrate the Sacrament Likewise post finem orationum after the prayer of consecration Harding The .177 vntruthe That translation is true The .178 vntruthe That translation is true Dering Now that this Apostata hath vomited vp a litle poisoned affection against the blessed bishop of Sarisburie he is laide downe againe like a swine to wallow in his former mire and as blinde bayard running forth he knoweth not whether quoteth mo vntruthes of his owne making My translation saith he is true His reasoÌ„ is this some doctors doe expounde benedicere for consecrare therefore that is so And the Grecians said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sancta sanctis therfore sancta is the Sacrament If Maister Harding that in his long epistle would so faine haue ben Appelles could with all his cunning picture out these argumentes we should haue the right shape of a fooles bable Benedicere saith he is construed of S. Ambrose by consecrare ergo it is so But it is construed otherwise by the Euangelists therefore it is not so Where S. Mathew and S. Marke say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when he had blessed he brake S. Luke and S. Paule say 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when he had giuen thankes he brake Yea bothe Mathewe and Marke them selues say of the cuppe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when he had giuen thanks he gaue it Then if Benedixit be he did consecrate then Gratias egit is also he did consecrate and so the .180 vntruthe is verified that master Harding calleth some things that are not as if they were And I would faine know why maister Harding cleaueth so to this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it maketh nothing for his transubstantiation It is written in the Scripture 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 God blessed the seuenth day yet he turned not the nature of it So God speaketh vnto Abraham 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Surely in blessing I will blesse thée yet God vsed no manner of consecration so saith S. Paule 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Who hath blessed vs in all manner of spirituall blessing In diuers other places of holy scripture thisword is vsed yet no where for this straunge manner of transubstantiation or other consecration than which we say in Latine consecrare which is to giue vp to ordaine to appoynt to an holy vse though it may be well said of the sacrament yet it is not in Gréeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but rather 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so that why he should translate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to consecrate there is no cause except suche cause as will haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifie nothing But saithe maister Harding some Doctors haue translated Benedicere by Consecrare Let vs graunt it suche is the libertie of speache that some worde is vsed in an impropre signification Dothe it folow bicause Benedicere may be to consecrate therfore Benedicere sancta is to consecrate the sacrament This gathering is very childishe Extruo is to builde vp Therfore is extruere mensam to build or make a table Interpello is to disturbe or interrupt therefore is interpellare debitoreÌ„ to interrupt or disturbe your debtour Expendere is to consider therfore is expendere poenas to consider punishment Sure this is a very idle proofe though Benedicere were to consecrate and sancta were the sacrament But now it is shewed that Benedicere is not to consecrate and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not the sacrament as Maister Iuel sheweth out of Chrysostome And in da de what reason is it that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sancta sanctis should be the sacrament not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sancta sanctorum should be likewise the sacrament Now for as muche as maister Harding cleaueth so vnto the Doctors that what so euer they say he straight taketh it for an Oracle we may say vnto him as our Sauior said vnto the Iewes Euen Moses in whome you trust shall be a witnesse against you so the Doctors shall be witnesses against master Harding and his felowes that when the Doctors do require to be iudged by the scriptures yet they without scriptures will ground their faith vpon them Cursed be he saith the Prophet that trusteth in man and maketh fleshe to be his arme For my parte I reuerence the Doctors and praise God for them they were good stewards and dispensed faithfully the goodes that were committed vnto them they were men of excellent learning great diligence and godly life and haue sufficiently confuted maister Hardings religion but yet they were men and had all their erroures Tertullian sayd God had a body and therefore he was reprehended of Augustine He thought not well in all poyntes of our sauioure Christe as appeareth in his bookes de Trinitate and aduersus Hermogenem Praxeam where he teacheth that Christe is a portion of his father Origen in diuers places wryteth very wickedly as appeareth by Epiphanius annumbring him among heretikes Cyprian sayde that Christe did satisfie onely for Originall sinne Methodius sayd we are iustified by fulfilling the lawe of nature as Epiphanius reporteth These were wicked heresies The doctors that folowed after had also many and great faultes I néede not recken maister Hardings Doctors Clemens Abdias Martialis Dyonisius Hyppolitus and suche other