they haue left as an absolute patterne for al actions of the Church vnto the worlds end and to hold them accursed men or Angels that teach any thing besides that or to varie from the same Neither what signes or miracles soeuer they shall doe may we hold them Propheâ—s seing they persuade yea enforce to idolatrie apostasie as by their publick worship appeareth And as to Euangelistes that office is too meane base for these fellowes The Euangelistes toke their caling sending and whole directioÌ„ from the Apostles neither swarued from the same in any thing but faithfully deliuered to the Churches those rules they receiued and assisted theÌ„ in the practize therof These men in that they haue no such caling to their office neither doe so execute yt not caling the Church vnto or helping them in but drawing them from vtterly forbidding them the practize of those rules ordinances the Apostles left teaching bringing in setting vp and inforcing their owne or other humane deuises ordinances vpoÌ„ y e church in stead therof and that in such high waightie matters as the bringing in a new strange Ministrie Ministration Worship and Gouernement For all which causes reasons many other which might be drawen from the rules of CHRISTS Testament and their whole worke and doings which in nothing accordeth to the true patterne we must hold them false Apostles and Prophets counterfeite Euangelistes deceiptful worckmen builders Neither yet if we but as fleightly examine them by compare them vnto the rules of Christes Testament shall we finde them to execute any of the ordinarie permanent offices of the Bishops belonging vnto Christes Church as the Pastors Teachers Elders office A true christian Pastor ought to be chosen of some one peculiar flocke where after due proofe he is to be publickly ordeined receiued Vnto which peculiar flocke he is bownde by couenaÌ„t to administer attend Neither doth his Pastorall dutie ministrie and chardge extend to more flockes or Churches at one tyme then that one wherof he is chosen Pastor Neither may a true Pastor aduance himself either in titles or power aboue or ouer other christian Pastors his fellowe bretheren howsoeuer he haue receiued a greater measure of giftes by so much he ought to behaue himself the more lowly and to apply himself the more carefully diligently to serue the Lord with the same according to his pleasure appoinctment within the limites of his caling wherin if he behaue himself faithfully he receiueth praise if not reproofe censure of the whole flock accordingly But now these Arch and Lord Bishops neither haue any certaine ministrie ouer or in any one peculiar flocke neither anie such 〈…〉 by or in any one Congregation but are elected either by the 〈◊〉 Colledge of the Deane Chapter or ells by the Prince consecrate invested inthronised or instawled with I know not how manie popish rites trincketes ceremonies belonging thervnto whose verie ordinarie attire is so popish ridiculous and fâ—nde as they passe not in the streates without the wonderment skorne of young and olde Their ministerie also is not limited and tyed to one certaine office or to one certaine flocke but as they exercise sondrie offices so doe they it ouer in sondrie Churches preaching administring the Sacraments where and when they liste of their pontifical aucthoritie and ceasing againe from preaching c. at their owne pleasures when how longe they list Againe some of them exerciseth absolute aucthoritie ouer al no one of them but ouer many hindreth Churches Ministers ouer all causes and doctrines to cite sommon suspend silence excommunicate absolue emprison â—equester conâ—iscate at their pleasure whom and wherfore they liste without accompt or controlement no not by the Princes royall Writts and Courtes to which euery soule ought to be subiect They impose vpon all Churches and Ministers their owne deuises for the publicke worship administration stinting and limiting the Pastor what wordes to reade and say what scriptures to reade on this and that daye through the yeere They limite and restraine the doctrine of the Pastor from speaking against anie thing by publick aucthoritie commanded They determine and dispose of all the doctrines and causes of all Churches at their owne will no man so hardie to gaiâ—e say or to cal in question anie thing they affirme or to denie anie thing they commande or forbid There is nothing iudged error in the Church of ENGLAND but what they iudge to be error be yt neuer so grosse popish blasphemouse nor anie thing compted truth which they pronounce error be yt neuer so holy sounde and warranted by Gods worde The whole ministrie doctrine publick administration causes and censures of the Church of ENGLAND are wholie in their handes to commande restraine or execute vpon al persons and they themselues subiect to no reproofe liable to no censure Now let any iudge that knoweth what belongeth to the office entrance and administratioÌ„ of the Pastors office whether these Bishops possesse this office be rightly caled and entered to the same and faithfully administer execute the same The teachers office for the reasons aboue-said they cannot hold or chalendge both in regarde of the fastuous titles inordinate power and aucthoritie which they vsurpe exercise ouer all the ministerie euen such as they cal Pastors and ouer all Churches causes censures c which can at no hand be ioyned or agree vnto the christiaÌ„ Teachers office As also for that they their ministrie and office belongeth not to any one peculiar Congregation The like reasons maie be drawen from their Popish entrance and administration seing they take vpon them to deliuer the Sacraments and attend not vnto doctrine only or diligently giuing ouer ceasing to preach wheÌ„ they list neither submit the doctrines they teach to the ceÌ„sure tryal of other Prophets by the Scriptures For al which reasons and sondrie other they cannot be said to haue or exercise the christian Teachers office Last of al the office of gouerning Elders they haue not for all the same reasons In that they are not chosen of belong not vnto any perticular Congregation to which they should be bownde by duetie to attend Neither euer did we reade in al Christes Testament of any Bishops or Ministers setting aside those temporarie offices of Apostles Prophets Euangelists that where chosen did attend or minister vnto diuers or more then one Congregation or office at one time Certaine rules being there giuen for their election ordination and administration of in one Congregation with manifold admonitions exhortatioÌ„s to sture them vp vnto diligeÌ„ce labour and watchfulnes in that office place they are caled vnto as a worke enough for him that thinketh himself most able to dischardge it And sure most monstruous impossible it were for one man faithfully to attend diuers Congregations Except they can also
from al thinges that are fownd contrary to the same is no disobedience to Princes neither to withdrawe or derogate from their sacred power as this malignāt Clergie would persuade But they rather that encroch vpon openly impugne the Princes royal prerogatiue that so highly abuse their Prince and that trust she cōmitteth vnto them that break violate al y e publicke lawes charters of the lande that vsurpe y e ciuile sword aucthority and iurisdictiō which are vtterly prohibited thē by God that vsurpe place aboue al in aucthoritie vnder her Ma tie whoesoeuer to whom by the lawe of God they ought to be subiect that wil not submit their lawes doings persons to any ciuile tryal at the Princes royal iudgmēt seates but rather seek to withdrawe some of the most high and chief causes from her royall Courts and iudgment Seates into their owne Courtes that vsurpe the proper peculiar place titles preuileges power of Christ himself exercising absolute aucthoritie ouer al Churches doctrines causes persons to bring in or cast out erect or abrogate what lawes ordinances ministrie ministration gouernment they lust without controlement that wil not submit their publick ecclesiastical decrees procedings nor yet their priuate liues and conuersation to the tryall and censure of Christ in his Churche by the worde of God that make such barbarous hauocke mis-rule and confusion both in Churche and common wealth that seduce and deceiue their Soueraigne Prince their Nobles Maiestrates and the whole land leading them in the wayes of death destruction tourning them out of the straight waies of life peace that with their vtmost endeuour and skil oppose against the Testament kingdome of Christ that molest spoile and persecute in al hostile maner the Lords most faithful seruantes her Ma tis most loyall true hearted Subiects for refrayning from their idolatries and enormities so contrarie to the gospel of Christ which flowe from their antichristian gouernment and ministrie that nourish fauour and support the Lordes her Ma tis pernitious knowen enimies the Papistes those idolators those conspirators and traytors who they say are not such enimies to their pontifical estate and regiment as these faithfull christians are that are of nothing so iealouse vigilāt and careful not euē of their Soueraigne Princes life or of the peace prosperitie of the whole land as of their owne vsurped ruynous kingedome lest the light of the Gospel should break forth and discouer their apostaticall throne and antichristian procedings And therfore with al their might and may ne they striue to suppresse this light and to oppresse all such as in anie sinceritie and good conscience professe and practize the Gospel tollerating chearishing rather anie mischief anie vile flagitious and dissolute persons as by daylie experience is seene So that by these markes and fruicts let the Christian or but indifferent reader iudge Whether these Prelates and their antichristian Hierarchie be to be held troublers of the Church and state abridgers of the Princes power vsurpers of publick aucthoritie without lawful caling like Corath Dathan Abyram Or wee as this accuser this trompe of Sathan to bleamish our holie profession glorious suffringes shameth not to giue out of vs. Although they all hitherto haue not neither shal euer be able in the confidence of Gods grace and of a cleare conscience wee affirme yt iustlie to detect or so much as to suspect vs of anie such crime endeuoure or intēt We reuerence and are subiect to euerie humane creature for the Lorde whether vnto the Kinge as hauing aucthoritie ouer all or vnto rulers as sent by him for the reuenge of euil doers or for the praise of them that doe well That according to the wil of God by doing wel we might put to silēce the ignorance of vnwise men Yet hold wee not the offices Courtes and iurisdiction of these Prelates and their Hierarchie within the compasse of this Commandement or to be the ordināce of God But finde them that verie throne of Sathan that Anarchie of Antichrist opposite to the kingdome and Testament of CHRIST most pestilent pernitious both to the Church and common Wealthe And therfore may not by Princes be suffred in Churches or cōmon Wealth muchlesse by them be established ouer the Church and common Wealth without giuing their sacred power to the Beast Neither may anie faithfull Christian be brought in subiectiō to this their antichristian power yoke without bowing downe and worshipping the Beast To discusse or perticulate the seuerall innumerable errors faultes abuses corruptions enormities in the cānons constitutions customes procedings of the seuerall Courtes that belong to these Prelates antichristian regiment I am not as I haue said able neither were yt in this place expedient By this which hath bene here generally said of them their Courtes and proceedinges appeareth how contrarie they are to that gouernment and to those ordinances which CHRIST hath established and set ouer his Church for euer CHRISTS Scepter is an euerlasting Scepter a Scepter of righteousnes He hath set downe a most perfect absolute gouernment to his Church He hath perticularly and exactly prescribed what officers lawes ordinances he requireth in his Church He cannot be separate from his owne gouernment He ruleth not his Church by anie other officers or lawes then by his owne which he hath instituted These godlesse Prelates then that appoinct other officers and lawes vnto him ouer his Church wrest not only the Scepter but the Kingdome out of Christes handes And al such as stand vnder the antichristia gouernmēt of these presumptuous idol shepheardes stand not vnder Christes staffe amenitie vnder his Scepter of grace as the sheepe of his fould within his couenant protection but as the sheepe of destruction vnder his yron rodd wherwith they shalbe broken as a Potters vessel Here is our controuersie touching this fourth principal transgressiō fully decided determined by Gods owne mouth That all which stand vnder anie false ecclesiasticall gouernmēt stand not within the Couenant but vnder the wrath of God All the mitigations then reasons and delusions of the false Prophets shal neuer be able to make voide tourne away or diminish these iudgments otherwise then by their vnfaigned repentance speedie conuertion from their euil wayes HITHER TO hath M r. Gif brought vs not one reason or place of scripture to prooue the present gouernmēt of these Prelates and their hierarchie to be that heauenly gouernment which CHRIST hath instituted in his Church but hath grieuouslie peruerted manie scriptures to prooue that the Church might stand vnder some antichristian yoke although we in our first writing in this 4 PRINRIPAL TRANGRESSION blamed yt as false and antichristian In our second shewed yt to be such in the Officers Courtes Cannons procedings Now at length for a clusiue reason to prooue and determine all the poyncts at once and to shut vp his booke he hath
to make hauock of them and excoÌ„municate at his pleasure But al theis transgressions and enormities whatsoeuer you thinke to heale or hide at the least with these 2 drye wythered fig-leaues The one That you cannot remedie the matter Thother Priuate meÌ„ may not reforme In the first you coÌ„fesse your selues depriued of that powre which Christ vnto the worlds end hath left vnto his Church to reforme redresse things amisse In tho'ther depriued of al christia libertie will so much as to saue your owne soule and to come forth of this Babilonish bondage you stand in still dreaming of the reformatioÌ„ of your idolatrous Sinagogs and seeking to heale the wounde of the Beast comparing them to the Temple of God and still begging the question frame your Arguments as though your people were faithful and your prayer holie Alas it were better you toke example by the fearefull iudgmeÌ„ts of God vpon y e Temples and learned of the faithfull seruants of God which in the idolatrous dayes of Achas 〈…〉 c refâ—eined from that they could not amend rather then in this â—rantick maner to blaspheme the name of Christ whervpon we are called by comparing vs to Anabaptists Heretiks for obeying the voice of God that calleth vs from emong you and for telling you the truth THE 3 fault is A false Antichristian ministrie imposed mainteined Here is no reason rendred whie it is a false Antichristian ministerie which is imposed Yf yee be Prophetts raised vp of God we must belieue that which you say but they did not lye in anie matter but euerie man may see that you haue in the former Article lied We may not therfore giue credit to your imaginations We haue more to proue that ther be manie faithfull Ministers of Christ in the land then that anie shalbe able to ouerthrow This I would wiâ—h that simple men would haue thus much wisdome as to suspend their iudgment if they be in doubt and so enquire if ther be anie churches of Christ vnder heauen what they do iudge of the Ministâ—rie churches of England For if ther be no Church of Christ nor ministerie and all the famous men in all the Churches say we be knowing our estate as they doo right well then be they all guyltie then where shall we finde the Church Shall we seek yt emongst a few vncharitable men which cannot shew anie Church which agreeth vvith them so nerely as the Anabaptists Donatists Let it be set downe vvhat maketh a true Minister of Christ and then if that be not found in manie Ministers in England let them be condemned Antichristian It is the part of euerie godly christian man to haue the matter throughly tried before he pronounce sentence if it were but against one man he should sinne grieuouslie to doo otherwise much more when the sentence is against the whole Church HERE you say is no reason rendred by vs vvhie yt is a false and Antichristian Ministrie which is imposed But if you had better vveighed these two former Transgressions vvherwith we charge you or dulie considered of your owne answere before you had put penne to paper you might haue gayned this labour you haue taken the shame you are like to suffer by theis your friuolous indirect answers Or if you had consulted with your learned bretheren vpon the matter to whome this promise which you haue intercepted more nerely by many rightes apperteined they would haue couÌ„selled you to haue vsed your discretion rather in the pulpit as they doo where you may say what you list without controlement theÌ„ thus bewray your follie in writing which lyeth subiect to the censure of all men in all ages They consider that an euill and corrupt matter ought rather to be couered then raked in lest yt become more odious Now we were perswaded by the word of God that the true Minister of Christ could not be a Minister of idolatrous false worship Such in our first cause of our comming out from emong you we proued the worship in your assemblies to be Then we were perswaded by y e word of God that a true Pastor could not stand a heard to the Lords goates and swyne blessing them with the blessing of the faithfull and deliuering them the holy things of God as the Sacraments c. Such in our second cause we proued both you and your people as they generally stand in your Parishes to be And now in this third cause your self by but repeating part of our words doo giue a strong sufficient reason Namely that your Ministrie is thrust imposed vpoÌ„ your Churches not freely chosen by the Lords faithful people according to Christ his ordinance in his TestameÌ„t You know our Sauiour Christ his iudgmeÌ„t of such as come into the shepefolde by inâ—rusion or ascend vp anie other way So then wee seeke not that you should credit vs or hold vs for Prophetts But if this wee speake be that vvhich God by them hath vttered then you deride not vs so much as them nor them so much as the Spirit of God that spake in them But the Prophetts of God lied not in anie thing but euerie man may see that wee haue in the former Article lied The Deuill is the author of lies sclaunders false accusations against the Saincts c and therof hath his name All that make or loue lies are his childreÌ„ and shalbe shut off the Citie of God This chardge wee haue repelled in the 2. Transgression where wee proued all receiued into your Church by Baptisme and are reteined in your Churches because you haue not the powre of Christ to excommunicat anie Thus still you fall into the pitte you make for vs by Gods iust iudgmeÌ„ts and shall by the same receiue the reward of a liar a false vvitnesse a false Prophet if God giue you not grace to repent which wee shall more ioye in then in your confusion Of the great store of reasons you haue to proue your Ministrie to be of Christ your selues faithfull you might haue bestowed one of your store either for pitie or for loue vpon vs who you see are fully perswaded that ther is not one such Minister among you all at least for sauing your self from the blame you layde vpon vs one reason vvould haue done vvel But chiefly for confirming your Ministerie to be of Christ one at the least had bene more then necessarie For otherwise wee may not belieue your bare affirmation before Christs negatiue In whose Testament wee finde neither the names you carie the Offices you beare the maner of your entrance of your administration neither of your support maintenance Your discent and pedegree is within few degrees deriued from the Pope you being the children of your Antichristian Bishops which are the creatures of the Pope who is the eldest sonne of Sathan and his Vicar gennerall in earth whose image marke powre and life you
discipline to execute neither belong CHRISTS ordinances to your Antichristian ministerie Babilonish assemblies which we denie to hold the head CHRIST in this their subiection to Antichristes ministerie ordinances worship It is but then your ignorance to make comparison betwene the Donatistes and vs. To the Worship THat the Donatistes did separat themselues from as corrupted a worship as the Brownistes doe Mr. GIFFARD wil stand to affirme Saith he there were prayers oblations for the dead then significatiue ceremonies superstitious signing of themselues with the signe of the Crosse c. To which we answere that Mr. GIFFARD affirmed in the 6. page of his booke that the Donatistes departed disorderly out of the Church condemning yt not for any poinct of doctrine for therein the other Churches they did agree Now here he would make comparison betwene them vs in disalowing the worship But it seemeth Mr. GIFFARD holdeth not anie doctrine to be contayned in the worship which indeed ought to coÌ„teine nothing els and sure it is a strang worship that is not grounded vpon doctrine The second thing in this place we will note is the time of these corruptions in the worship namely as he reckoneth within two hundreth yeares after CHRIST If their worship were then as corrupted as ours is now we merueil how you will defend the platforme of your Church gouernment from that tyme that was so corrupt calling yt the primatiue Church Your fellow Priests Argumentes from the primatiue Church as thy falslie call those times will be of small weight if you make their worship as corrupt as this deriued from Antichrist In the 44 page he graunteth as much of the gouernment that it was then thus corrupt when our tyme-seruers will only cleaue to that paterne and neither he nor they to the Testament of CHRIST Thirdly he hath forgotten his scope Argument He should by his promise haue prooued that the Doâ—â—tistes we were of one iudgment in this poinct and that they made the false worship one principal cause of their separation as we do so that he hath forgotten himself in this place as a man not knowing where to make shew of somthing Next where Mr. GIFFARD grantes that in those assemblies where the worship is idolatrous it is lawfull to separat a mans self he contrary to those expositions of the 2 Corinth 6. and other places to that effect now granteth a separation in body and minde both I will not rebuke him nor charge him of inconstancie because I perceiue him to contradict his holy Pastors of these tymes where he seeth them to erre But he by and by returneth to his vomit againe thus Ther are many great corruptions in the worship before it come to that where certeine fundamental poincts of doctrine are holden the worship cannot be idolatrous but in the deepest defection in poperie ther were certeine fundamentall poincts holden as he faith in an other place wherby they were stil in the Church and vnder the Conenant therfore ther is no idolatrous or blasphemous worship that may in the Papistes Church be separated from Mr. GIFFARD may be a good subiect but sure his groundes of doctrine are popish and pernitious We here demaund of Mr. GIF whither such corruptions errours as he speaketh of might be of the godly that knew them such be offered vp by themselues or communicated with in the Church And Mr. GIF must giue vs leaue to say it cannot be their worship was so corrupt as yours consisting of so manie patched deuises of your learned Popes so long hatched and by so manie heades as haue out of that fordge of Sathans minting howse contriued yt euen out of Antichristes treasurie of deceites As for errours that haue no good foundation we may shew him twentie for one Hitherto then Mr. GIFFARD his bretheren that haue separated from the Church of ROME as they would pretend yet retayning still that worship are bretheren with the Donatistes as he pleaseth to deride that holy name of bretheren To the Ministerie THe Donatistes cried out that the Churches from which they separated had no true Ministers but that they were all false Prophets Iudasses persecutors of the iust generations of vipers because they said they had their ordination from them that were such The Brownistes lift vp their voyces with all their might call vs Baalls Priestes the marked seruantes of Antichrist false Prophets seducers and such lyke because as they say we are ordeyned by Antichristian Bishops therfore we be Donatistes Mr. GIFF. his Argument is denyed Ieremie our Sauiour Christ and diuers of the Prophets against Israell did in this maner pull off the visardes of the false Prophets disclosing their wickednes to y e people were they therfore Donatistes or Schismatickes Calvine all of you cry out against the Popes ministerie at ROME are you therfore Donatistes and Schismatickes The matter then must be considered for which they so called them The Donatistes for no other cause then for that some of them were ordeyned by Iudasses and traytours the Brownistes for that these are ordeyned by Antichristian Bishopps which exercise an other spirituall gouernment then CHRISTS Wherein if you had eyes to see there is no comparison betwene their cause ours First the person that did ordeine satâ— in a lawful office as the Donatistes supposed did also ordeine as they thought in maner according to the rule of the word the partie that was ordeined meete for the ministerie the office to which he was called lawfull the administration wherein he was to administer holy and good for anie thing they sawe The contrarie of all which we finde in your ministerie and the thing wherein you would haue vs likened together was neuer our reason which is the wickednes of the mans person that doth of his sole authoritie ordeine for manie Churches which we neither approoue in the Donatistes or you Our exceptions in this case I say hath neuer bene against the person of your Ordinarie although we might iustly Take next time your matter together and looke whose kingdome you administer in what calling office Leitourgie flock and be ashamed of your comparison by so much as your ministeri is more wicked Again you here put the cause of our casting of the Bishops their traine into the lake to be for that they exercise an other discipline then CHRISTES as though this were some small matter which if you put the word gouernment of the Church you shall finde it the denial of CHRIST to reigne in his kingdome a suppression of at his lawes ordinances euen the whole Testament and erection and practising of an other Let him that readeth consider what state all stand in that remaine in this kingdome erected against Christ and what ministerie the seducers in this foraigne priesthoode exercise of God or of the Deuill for CHRIST hath but one ministerie one Gospell one gouernment ouer his Church Now seeing ther is no comparison
ROME and yet keepe their gouernment worship therfore the Church of England are Schismamatickes and Donatistes and an other poinct that ther can be no true Sacramentes no true Church vnder a false gouernment And Mr. GIFFARD is yet further out of his way To the Argument of manie Churches HE granting that we herein differ from the Donatistes in that they condemne all Churches in the world we do not will needes notwithstanding haue vs Donatistes in this poinct also For saith he though they shoote not their arrowes at them yet their arrowes strike them their Argumentes vpon consequence will reach so far yea runne thorough the sides of all Churches This we answere you must first cleare your selues of those thinges wherwith you are chardged and pressed and trouble not your self with other mens matters seing you make this but a cloke for your wickendnes to shrowde your self vnder other meÌ„s persons with whome we haue not to deale We vtterly refuse to enter into this controuersie of the estate of other Contries we know the word of God is neere vs thankes be to God by which if your cause be good suffer it to be tryed As for the consequence of our Argumentes they are but your owne collections to passe ouer your owne sinnes and sett the strife betwene vs and other Churches which we wil not be drawen vnto And all men may here behold this sower of wordes and strife maker will counterfeit not only consequence but Argumentes of his owne head to raise quarrell In all which he hath forgotten his promise to compare our writinges and theirs together and flyeth to his owne collection In this part of his stage-play he beginneth thus The Church of ENGLAND is esteemed reuerenced emongst the Churches as a sister and so coÌ„municated with yet they all know what her faultes be in her assemblies in her worship in her ministerie gouernment in asmuch as they are apparant Vnto the first we suppose your worship ministerie Church gouernment are not so apparant vnto them as you gyue out Secondly we doubt yea I may say it is vntrue that they iustifie your ministerie worship or gouernment Thirdly admit they should thus sinne either of ignorance negligence or infirmitie standing otherwise orderly gathered to the practize of CHRISTES ordinances they are not for this sinne till after due convincement and admonition they remaine obstinat to be presently iudged no Churches But what I thinke of their estate you shall here pardon me I wil not intermedle till I be called As for your harmonie of Confessions if it be not the harmonie of the Prophets CHRIST and his Apostles it skilleth nothing vs what coÌ„sent you make Againe it is not an accord in certeine general Articles that can satisfie this matter when in the perticulars you discent to the ouerthrow of al Such an harmonie you may very wel make with your mother Church of ROME and a great deale more large Neither do their Confessions agree with you in the estate of the ministeri Church gouernment nor worship Scotland Geneua France c haue an other ministerie offices choise ordination and ministration an other gouernment worship but it were too large to discusse And now hold to your Argument and see what wil follow The Church of ROME haue the same confession of faith which you call your Apostolick Crede that you haue yea the Lordes prayer as you cal it Athanasius Crede c therfore they and you agreeing in this harmonie of confession are one body one Church Againe these Churches you say hold you the Church of God and you hold the Church of ROME to be the Church of God therfore you are one body al and then you al the Churches Schismatickes from your mother Church If the Church of ENGLAND be Antichristian idolatrous and worship the Beast c then the Churches which perfectly know the same and yet acknowledg her a sister are partakers of her sinne and so to be condemned with her The same Argument we thus returne you If the Church of ROME be Antichristian idolatrous worship the Beast theÌ„ the Church of ENGLAND which perfectly knoweth the same yet acknowledgeth her a sister as Mr. GIFFARD doth say is partaker with her sinnes and so to be condemned with her Al those Churches saith he which know the Church of ENGLAND in this estate do yet reuerence her as a true Church of CHRIST do coÌ„dempne those as heretical Schismatickes which cal yt Antichristian separat themselues from yt We answere that all those Churches he speaketh of do not approue the church of ENGLAND in this estate neither condempne vs in the thinges we withstand therein and receiue it againe thus At the first coÌ„ming out of papacie all the Churches in the world did approue the Church of ROME and condempne those as heretical Schismatickes which caled it AntichristiaÌ„ separated from yt Let Mr. Giffard put to what conclusioÌ„ he wil. I take it Mr. Giff. must now leaue the bare title of Church ministerie c and flee to the proofe of their profession orderly walking by the word of God which if he do not yet do we buyld therevpon as vpon a most sure foundation As to Mr. CALVINE we refer you to his confession of faith printed in the latter end of his owne Catechisme and if he be coÌ„trarie to himself in his other writinges look you vnto it we do not for the holynes of the man iustifie anie of his errours as no man is without neither for his errors reiect any truth he held knowing of the one God hath had mercy as we hope and for the other Gods word approueth it so that we beleiue not any thing because such a man said so but because by the word Spirit we heare CHRIST himself speak And you do greatly abuse his writinges in vsing them after your owne â—ense in his name contrarie to his minde and purpose and by your leaue wrasting them to your owne iudgment deceiuing others therby In his confession he affirmeth ther is no true Sacrament with promise as I do remember but where the Minister hath a lawfull office and outward calling to administer so that all his Argumentes must be vnderstood of such a Church as haue a lawful ministerie in office entrance and administration and cannot be applyed to yours Moreouer he reasoned against the Anabaptistes and such as held an integritie and perfection in the Church and separated for euerie sinne coÌ„mitted without due seeking of redresse And if he erred in these or anie other doctrines we do not therfore hold them presently to be no Church in which he was Minister or which did in like ignorance receiue the said doctrines it is obstinacie in error that only deserueth casting off and that by due order As for most of your places expouÌ„ded by his mouth now receiued by you to maintaine open sinne to coÌ„municate with the open knowne transgressours they are so coÌ„mon
A PLAINE REFVTATION OF M. G. GIFFARDES reprochful booke intituled a short treatise against the Donatists of England Wherein is discouered the forgery of the whole Ministrie the confusion false worship and antichristian disorder of these Parish assemblies called the Church of England Here also is prefixed a summe of the causes of our seperation and of our purposes in practise which M. GIFFARD hath twise sought to confute and hath now twise receiued answere by HENRIE BARROVVE Here is furder annexed a briefe refutation of M. Giff. supposed consimilituda betwixt the Donatists and vs. Wherein is shewed how his Arguments haue bene may be by the Papists more iustly retorted against himself the present estate of their Church by I. GREN. Here are also inserted a fewe obseruations of M. Giff. his cauils about read prayer deuised Leitourgies 1591. To the right honorable Pere and graue Counselor Sr. WILIAM CECILL Knight of the most noble order Baron of Burleigh Lord high Treasurer of England c. grace wisdome be multiplied from God our Father from our Lord IESVS CHRIST Pro. 18. 17. Iustus qui primus in lite su◠donec aduenit proximus eius peruestiget illum HItherto Right Honorable haue our malignant aduersaries had their full scope against vs with the lavve in their ovvne handes and haue made no spare or conscience to accuse blaspheame condempne punish vs yea to pronounce publish vs as damnable heretikes schismatikes sectaries seditious disobedient to Princes deniers abridgers of their sacred povver c to the eares eies of all men openly in their pulpits and in their printed bookes published by the consent approbation of their Church No triall all this while vpon anie sute or complaint graunted vs Either ciuile that we might knovv for what cause by what lavve we thus suffer which yet is not denied the most horrible malefactors offendors Or ecclesiasticall by the word of God where place freedome might be giuen vs to declare pleade our ovvne cause in sobrietie order that so the meanes appoincted of God for our recouerie might be vsed and we wherein we should be found to erre or transgresse might be cōuinced to our faces by the scriptures and left inexcuseable But in stead of this christian course they haue shut vs vp novv more then three yeares in miserable close prisons from the aire from all exercise from all companie or conuersation with anie person from all meanes so much as to write yncke paper being taken kept from vs and a diligent watch both by our keapers held ouer vs and also continuall searches vpon one pretence or other made where we were rifled from time to time of all our papers and writinges they could find And being thus streightly kept watched from speaking or writing their conscience yet giuing them no rest in all their prosperitie and pleasures whilest we the Lords poore witnesses against their sinnes breathed Not to speake of their secret indirect meanes wherby they sought to take avvay our lyues they suborned amongest sondrie others tvvo special instruments M. Some M. Giffard to accuse blaspheme vs publiquelie to the viewe of the world etch of them in tvvo bookes the one labouring to proue vs Anabaptists the other Donatists in the same Which Bookes they haue preferred especiallie to your Honor as the chiefe obstacle that hindered them from their violent and bloudie course of the same intent no doubt that their predicessors the chiefe Priestes and Pharasies accused our Sauiour vnto Pilat and the Apostle Paule vnto the Romane gouernours Yet euen all this we hope the Lord hath disposed to the furder manifestation of his truth by directing our aduersaries to bring our criminations before your Honor. Of whose wisdome equitie we haue so great experience assurance as we can not frō henceforth doubt to be condempned vnheard or to find therein worse vsage then our Sauiour the Apostles found at those heathē Rulers Wherfore we addressed our selues by such meanes as the Lord administred and as the incomomodities of the place and the infirmities of our decaied bodies memories would permit to our defence or rather to the defence of that truth wherof God hath made set vs his vnvvorthie witnesses though as signes to be spokē against and as monstrous persons in this sinfull generation And haue herevnto vndertaken Mr. Giffards two reprochfull blasphemous Bookes Shevving the true causes of our seperation from the parish assemblies confirming approuing the same to be both true and sufficient by sondrie weightie reasons expresse scriptures Refelling by the like all the friuolous cauills and iniurious sclanders which M. G. hath there brought to hide their sinnes deface the truth and to defame vs. As also shevving such apparant dissimilitude betvvixt the Donatists and vs both in the causes of our their seperation and in the maner of our their proceedings and in sondrie errors they held as no man of anie knovvledge or iudgmēt before attempted or shall hereafter be able with anie truth or conscience to compare vs vnto them herein or to excuse M. G. for this his vnchristian dealing with vs. All whose vnsanctified reproches whervvith his bookes through euerie sentence are seasoned in stead of better grace herevpon fall to the ground and remaine vpon his ovvne and not vpon our accompt This defence when whe had through the mercifull hand of our God finished though not with anie shevv of humane wisdome or arte so much as in simplicitie of the truth innocencie of our heartes we held it our dutie to present in like maner in alreuerence humilitie vnto your honorable vievv graue cōsideratiō That both sides being heard according to equitie and our ansvveres as well as their criminatiōs duly expended your sentence or at the lest approbation might proceede according to the truth Crauing herein no furder fauour then according to the equitie of our cause innocencie of our doings Nor yet shunning any furder triall of the one or the other that your Honor shall appoinct or thinck meet whether with these our aduersaries or anie other that shall be contrarie minded whosoeuer Beseaching your Honors perdō for this our bould presumption the rather because such necessitie was layed vpō vs by the hand of God through the importunate chalenges insolent prouocatiōs of these our accusors whose mouthes must either be stopped or else through our defalt y e holy truth of God which we beleeue professe yea our innocēcie be betraied to the perpetual infamie of these our reprochfull aduersaries to our ovvne perill and future iudgment to the scandall of all that professe the same truth with vs but chiefly to the offence and torning backe of manie euen of the whole land from the streight waies of the Lord euen the waies of life and peace All which mischiefes we trust shalbe preuented by these our simple indeuours the Lord
the faith or had made profession therof where they haue not the true ministrie of CHRIST but a strange antichristian ministrie imposed vpon them vvhere they haue not the gouernement of CHRIST but of Antichrist ouer them where their administration worship is not after the Gospel of CHRIST but after their popish idolatrous Leitourgie Al this may safely be defended without falling into anie such inconvenience as M r. Giffard threatneth AS to the heresie he speaketh of we doubt not nether euer thought but the best Church that consisteth of mortall men may fall ether of negligence or of ignorance into greiuous offences and dangerous errors Yea we doubt not but that some famous Churches Christians may fall into such errors as he termeth fundamentall the holding wherof should vtterly subuert the faith As in the Church of Corinth Galatia Asia there where that denied the resurrectioÌ„ That reuiued the Ceremonial â—awes That held the doctrines of Balaam and Nicholas But this we hold withal that no true Church or Christian will maintaine anie sinne or error wheÌ„ yt is euidentlie shewed coÌ„vinced vnto them by the worde of God much lesse persecute such as reproue admonished them as you doe Or if they doe whilest they remaine in that estate they are not of vs to be held the true Churches of CHRIST TO your second chardge we answeare That we haue learned to put difference betwixt error heresie All good men as is said doo may erre but no good man wil defend or persist in his error when yt is shewed and conuinced vnto him Obstinacie ioyned vnto error after yt is dulie convinced maketh heresie Furder we say That anie error being obstinatly holden and taught after it is duelie convinced reproued vnto him maketh an hereticke and heresie in that partie or in that Congregation that so holdeth and teacheth it and doth separate from the faith communion of Christ. Wherfore we can but wonder at your ignorance who staÌ„d for a Teacher in your church and yet hold some errors obstinatlie held taught against the truth of God not to be heresies or at the least not to be fundamental though you see by expresse rule euerie hereticke after one and the second admonition to be shunned Yet say we not that though euerie error thus obstinatlie held be heresie and euerie transgressioÌ„ against the lawe be sinne that therfore all sinnes are equal or all errors of like indignitie The lawe and iudgments of God teach vs to put difference NEther is ther cause whie you should chardge vs or we confesse our selues guiltie of pride presumption intrusion into Godes iudgment seat for condemning those assemblies which the whole worde of God condemneth in all their doings Greater is your pride presumption c that in this maner condemne and blaspheme the truth and seruantes of God for reprouing your sinnes that thus plead for and coulor these filthie abhominations of your Church which are most odious to euerie good conscience But this knowe for certaine howsoeuer the Shipmasters Maryners and Marchantmen of these wares howle and crye out howsoeuer the false Prophet labour to gilde and adorne the false Church with the iewells ornamentes and titles that belong to the true Church how much soeuer the Harlot doe glorifie her self and say in her heart that she sitteth as a Queene and is no widowe and shall see no sorrowe Yet shal her plagues come in one daye death and sorrowe and famine and she shalbe burnt with fire because the God that condemneth her is a strong Lorde IN that you chardge vs with the breach of the rule Math. 18. vnto you this still proceedeth of your former vayne conceipt arrogating vnto your Churches such names titles prerogatiues duties as belong and are only giuen to the true Churches of CHRIST Not being able noâ— endeuouring to approue your Churches by the Testament of Christ although you were often required and vrged by vs so to doe wherby all contention should soone haue ceased you beene cleared iustified we iustlie conuict and chardged In the meane while we affirme vnto you That these golden rules onlie belong vnto the true Churâ—h of CHRIST and that the Court without the Temple vvhich is giuen to the Gentiles is to be cast out and not to be measured The Cannons of the POPE which your Church imbraceth more fitly agree vnto you then the rules of Christs Gospel which your Church reiecteth and blasphemeth But that we maie the sooner see our fault shew vs we pray you how we might execute this rule vnto you how we might tel yt to your Church how we might be heard and haue redresse For if by your Church you meane the ConvocatioÌ„ house you see how they haue often openly reiected this sute If you meane by your Church the Bishops whom you cal the cheif gouernours of your Church you see they blaspheme this truth caling the order of Christs gouernmeÌ„t intollerable daÌ„gerous to the subuertion of Prince state they hate persecute imprison al that speake for or seek the same But if nowe you meane by Churches your Parish Churches alas you see they want power they can mend nothing be yt neuer so heinous or hereticall they must receaue what their Lordes the Bisshops impose and endure til they redresse How then to whom or to what end would you haue vs complaine vnto your Church in this estate Or with what equitie and conscience can you thus reuile and coÌ„demne vs for breaking Christs order towardes your Church when you see your Church wil not be subiect vnto Christes order but persecuteth vs and al such as reproue their faultes and seek to doo Christes will because their worckes are euil and wil not endure the light when they are neuer so litle examined therbye As shal furder appeare but by a cursorie touching of these principal transgressions following THE FIRST PRINCIPAL TRANSGRESSION VVHERVVITH YOVR CHVRCHES ARE CHARDGED IS THAT they worship GOD after a false maner Their worship being made of the invention of man euen of that man of sinne erroneous and imposed vpon them We leaue your first answeare vnto this Transgression and our replie vpon your said answeare to be pervsed and compared by the indifferent Reader and now addresse our selues vnto this your second defence FIrst to make our aâ—cusatioÌ„ his answere more cleare M r. GIF traÌ„slateth our PropositioÌ„ into a Sylogisme thus VVhatsoeuer assemblies worship the true GOD after a false maner their vvorship being made of the inveÌ„tion of maÌ„ euen of the maÌ„ of sinne c the same are not the true Churches of GOD. But th' assemblies as they generallie staÌ„d in England doe vvorship the true GOD after a false maner their vvorship being made of the inventioÌ„ of man c Therfore the assemblies of EnglaÌ„d be not the true Churches of GOD. We finde M r. Giffard so ful of legier du main that we had neede looke narrowlie
of the Sacraments was perfect and fullie sufficient Yf they so thincke of yt Whether they iudge it lawful for anie mortal men or the whole Church willingly wittingly to alter or add anie thing to or plucke anie thing from the said institution of our Sauiour in the Sacraments Or if they so add Whether our Sauiour doth accept and blesse yt as his owne institution And if God doe not accept or blesse such Sacraments where his institution is thus wilfullie violated and changed Howe such â—dulterate Sacraments may be said the true seales of Gods Couenant especiallie where such a blasphemous horrible popish idolatrous ceremonie is vsed as Mr. Giffard coÌ„fesseth this signe of the crosse to be except yt be better with them then it was with the Papistes Or howe may the faithful in this estate ioyne vnto them And nowe yt would be knowen of Mr. Giffard seing he in his owne iudgment condeÌ„neth these Symbolical Seremonies howe he dare thus presumtuously breake CHRISTES institution in deliuering them after the maner prescribed and ioyne vnto those men that enioyne those ceremonies against such of CHRISTES faithful seruants as reproue them stand and suffer againgst them Is not this most fearefully and presumptuously to tempt God to sinne against his owne coÌ„science It is no excuse vnto him to saye the best reformed Churches doe vse witnesses he meaneth God-fathers and God-mothers in baptisme For his owne conscience knoweth and iudgeth that the best Churches doe erre in so doing Furder Baptisme being publique to be deliuered openlie in th'assemblie when the whole Churche is mett together what neede more witnesses of the matter then the whole Congregation But howe wicked and impious is that lawe of their Church which forbiddeth the Parents to answere and vndertake for the bringing vp their owne children in the true faith and feare of God and driueth them to bring Popish Gossips or sureties who must both vndertake vowe and answere for their childe That he doth forsake the Deuil his workes c. What can be more vaine folish and ridiculous TO the Baptisme by weomen you answeare That it is both coÌ„demned by the cheif Gouernours of your Church and is not practized except it be among the popish superstitious ignoraÌ„t sort First we must oppose the publique lawe of your Church against those your gouernours who we suppose as confidentlie as you speake wil not proue in the plural nomber when the pointe coÌ„meth to scanning Your lawe in 3. places of your Portesse doth not onlie allowe the baptisme by weomeÌ„ but publiquelie iustifie it and maketh a kinde of necessitie of such priuat baptisme Saijng that if the child be in danger they may baptise yt at home without a Minister and that in this case they haue donne wel according to due order concerning the baptisinge of this childe which being borne in original sinne in the wrath of God is nowe by the lauer of regeneration in baptisme receyued into the nomber of the children of God and heires of life euerlasting Wherin besides that they most highlie breake prophane th'institutioÌ„ and ordinances of Christ coÌ„cerning the publique seale of this holie CouenaÌ„t in deliuering yt without a lawful Minister priuatelie in a house rashlie and vnreuerently without due order c they also consequeÌ„tly maintaine teach these popish blasphemous errors therbye That if the childe had dyed vnbaptized yt had bene damned And that baptisme is of necessitie to saluation For ells what needed so great feare haste that they would not staye to bring the childe to the publique Congregation no noâ— so much as for the Minister to baptise yt Or how could there he so great cause and so greate necessitie in the matter as their booke mentioneth if they thought that the saluation of the childe honge not vpon the Baptisme Wherbie is manifestly coÌ„uinced as also by their wordes not secretlie implyed That they hold Baptisme the cause and not the seale of saluation For ells to the infant nowe dying what good could baptisme doe Or which waye could yt be a Laver of regeneration vnto yt or receiue yt into the nomber of Gods children We had thought that the saluation of the childe had onlie honge vpon th'eternal election and predestination of God And that the seale of the Couenant had belonged ynto yt by reason of the Parents faith and is administred not as anie helpe or present benefite to the newe borne infant so much as when yt commeth to ryper age to be a contynual comfort help vnto yt BIsshopping Mr. Giffard saith is litle vsed or vrged in the Church of EnglaÌ„d being loath belike to make anie defence therof Yet it is certaine that the Priest is in his Portesse enioyned to commaund That the children be brought to the Bisshop to be confirmed so soone as they can saye in the vulgare tongue the articles of their faith c. Also in an other place of their said seruice-booke there is an expresse lawe That none shalbe admitted to the holye Communion vntil such time as he can say the Catechisme and be confirmed Howe accorde these lawes to Mr. Giffards saying that yt is litle vsed But what a monstrous matter is this confirmation of their Church where the Baptisme of CHRIST is to be confirmed of a wretched man if he were as he is nothing lesse a seruant of CHRISTE Yea that Christes faithful seruaÌ„ts whom CHRIST hath alredie publiquely baptised receyued and engrafted vnto himselfe should be kept from the comfortable table of the Lorde vntil they haue a popish Bisshop his confirmation Not here to mention the binding of the faith of the whole Church to an Apocrypha Catechisme Yet to make this their confirmation either of greater estimation or more execrable with all men they add in the second cause manie speciall vertues therof Namely that by their imposition of handes and praier such as are so confirmed by them maye receaue strength and defence against all temptations to sinne and the assaultes of the VVorlde and the Deuil Surely if this be true great is the Bisshops faulte to neglect the practise theâ—of but howe great then our sinne to blame and condemne such a wonderfull excellent ordinance But doubtles this is either too good or too bad to be true If al they vpon whom these Bisshops shall laye their haÌ„des praye ouer shal receaue strength and defence against al temptations to sinne and the assaults of the worlde and the deuil then shal al they that receaue this Confirmation be vndoubtedlie saued Yea if anie of them whome the Bisshop shal thus confirme shal receiue this strength and defence c then haue the Bisshops greater power and their prayers more vertue then eueâ— God gâ—ue to anie mortal man yea then euer he gaue to our Sauiour CHRIST himself with whom though Iudas were contynuallie conuersant his most Heauenly doctrines and holie prayers yet the Deuil entred into him and preuayled against him Though Peter were a
Ministrie and ministration they are all like to proue as wee haue affirmed them strange false forged antichristian such as belong not vnto and cannot be exercised in anie christian Church and then let Mr. Giffard see whether that grieuous conclusion will follow and fal vpon the men vpon whom the marcke of the Beast is â—ownde that ministrie which is ordayned by proceded from and standeth vnder the throne of these antichristian Bishops In the meane while let vs in a verie few wordes consider of the rest of the ministerie in the Church of England in their order WE would gladly learne of him what office in the Church of God Chancelors and Commissaries may be said to exercise for we confesse that in Christes Testament we neuer read of their names or offices they are strangers there and we in all the worlde knowe not from whence they came or who brought them into the Church if not their Father the Pope or durste there retaine them but these his children successors the Bishopps A lardge power they haue and exercise ouer all parrish Churches their Ministers and Members to keepe a iudiciall Courte to cite coÌ„uent trie punish by muâ— ct iudge imprison absolue purge not only for ecclesiastical causes as the neglect of their ceremonies and trinckets and for not duelie reading and obseruing their iniunctions seruice-booke but also for ciuile causes yea criminatory and iudicial causes such as by the lawe of God deserue death and only belong to the Princes royall aucthoritie to whom therfore God hath committed his sworde Whose iudgment seate aucthoritie for anie priuate person to vsurpe is iudged rebellion both by the lawe of God and of this land For all that take the sworde shall dye in the sworde Math. 26. 52. Againe these Chauncelors and Commissaries are Ciuilians laye men as they cal them not Priestes therfore we meruaile how they came to exercise such an high ministrie ouer and in the Church The same we say of their other delegate ciuile Doctors of their Courtes trayne of Aduocates Proctors Registers c. We finde in the TestameÌ„t of Christ no mention in the Church of Christ no vse of such Offices Officers Courtes to decide their coÌ„trouersies to execute their censures iudgments These handle both ecclesiastical and ciuile causes mixtlie after a most corrupt and litigious maner amongst whom al things are venal in their Courtes c wherof in due place sufficeth it here to finde them in name office and vse counterfeit forged false without mention or warrant in Gods worde such as not Christ but Antichrist deuised brought in As to the persons in their high commission they are of two sortes chieflie ecclesiastical and partlie for countenance and fashion sake ciuile Of the ecclesiastical we haue aboue entreated Neither finde wee that anie ciuile person may exercise anie ecclesiastical office or function as to ouer-see so manie Churches to decide and determine ecclesiastical causes or to execute the censures of the Church as by way of office or by vertue of anie humane commission especially after that vngodlie maner which is in al things so contrarie to the order Christ hath instituted so contrary to the faith power and libertie of Christes Church as were not hard to shewe if we should examine their procedings by the rules of Gods worde And great ruth it is that so noble and honorable personages should be so highly abused by these wicked Bishops The Lorde in mercie shew them their deceipts the error and daunger of their wayes Yet of this gouerning ministrie remayneth the Arch head Deacon of the Church of England to be considered of who is no smale officer of this Church hauing and keeping his solemne iudiciall Court Synode and procedings in such ecclesiastical causes as fal within his consideration with absolute power in his owne name also to cite sommon iudge and punish all such parish Churches with their Parsons and Ministers as fal within his limites To impose taskes vpon Pastors what scriptures to reade priuately euerie daye what to conne by heart and to take accompt of them at his Synodes accordingly This Arch-Deacon also if such be his learning that he can may administer the worde and Sacramentes and haue a benefice or two for neede Howsoeuer he may pleade and boaste of his antiquitie aswell as the Arch-Bishop and of the great cause of his erection and necessarie vse of his office c. Yet seing we finde no mention of his name or vse of his office in all the Testament of CHRIST seing we finde there no such Heade Arch-Deacons with such stately Courtes and absolute iutisdiction and that not ouer many Deacons but manie of their Pastors yea manie whole Churches we must or rather the Lorde hath giuen the same sentence of them that is giuen of their fellowes aboue-said That they are not the ordinance or ministrie of CHRIST but of Antichrist euen the heades and limbes of that Beaste that wilbe held within no limites or boundes in no order or callings but breake corrupt and confounde all lawes boundes order and offices as they luste CHRIST himself is the only heade of all his Ministers whether Pastors Teachers Deacons c and they againe his members of their part The christian Deacon is to attend to the faithful collection and distribution of the benâ—uolence of the Sainctes and not to such Court-keeping ouer the Church ministrie and Sainctes He is to attend in his function to that peculiar flocke wherof he is chosen a Deacon and not in this maner to intrude and incroach vpon manie Churches A christian Deacon is to kepe himself within the boundes of his owne office in sobrietie and not to intermeddle with the Pastors office also with the ministration of the worde and sacramentes yea to exalt himself and vsurpe power and iurisdiction ouer his superiors not only ouer many Pastors but ouer manie whole Churches Thus haue we taken a superficiall veiwe or rather as yt were a sodaine blush of the reigning Ministerie of the Church of England leauing the furder inuestigation and demonstration of the manifold deformities therof to their furder diligence to whom God hath giuen greater knowledge and opportunitie leauing place also vnto Mr. GIFFARD or anie of that false hierarchie to make defence and iustification of these poyntes wherin they are here chardged by the worde of God Which if they can doe then let them be held excused and vs iustly chardged with impudent and wicked sclander In the meane while I haste to the second sort of their Ministrie THe next sorte of the ministrie of the Church of England is the Collegiat or idle Ministrie which may be diuided or rather distinguished because sometimes they are mixed ioyned one man being a master of a College and a Deane a fellowe of a house a Prebend and each of them haue a Parsonage or two for a neede into these two kindes Academical and Cathedral The third sort
he in all this space could bring vs no defence for them Wee cannot see by his owne reason seing they haue neither the true matter nor the forme of CHRISTES gouernment howe their gouernment should be held and esteamed the true and holie gouernment of Christ And then must that sequel which he so feareth needes followe that yt is an antichristian gouernment yoke such as the true Church seruantes of Christ may not beare and wittinglie stand vnder To perticulate all the seuerall corruptions abuses enormities of the gouernment of these antichristian Bishops is not in mie skil or power not knowing in anie measure their Cannons customes orders priueledges proceedings Onlie this in general I may affirme that of such pompeous stagelike popish mixt Courtes handling both ciuile ecclesiastical causes iudiciallie I neuer read through al the book of God or to belonge to Christes Church Especiallie exercising such absolute power iurisdiction ouer al Churches causes and persons ecclesiastical yea vsurping assuming and executing the whole power offices and dueties of al Churches yea euen the proper prerogatiues priuiledges only belonging to Christ himself To make impose or abrogate lawes To giue or rather sel licences dispensations to haue more benefices then one to marrie to eate flesh at tymes of restrainte c To cal sommon and fetch by coÌ„strainte al causes persons of the Church before them There to determine decree to censure silence suspeÌ„d sequester depose incarcerate punish by mulct what Minister or meÌ„ber of the Church they lust of their owne absolute aucthoritie without any controlement reprose or redresse The Church hauing no power or libertie to reprooue or refuse no not so much as call into question anie thing they do or decree to rebuke or censure these inordinate lawlesse fellowes for anie thing they doe either publickely or priuatly The Church must receiue obey as most holie whatsoeuer they decree or impose with al reuerence as the oracles of God though they be neuer so contrarie to the worde of God The Church or any other member of the Church in these Courtes be not permitted so much as to propounde or pleade their owne cause But are by them coÌ„pelled to their romish litigious course procedinges To speake pleade by a feed Advocate or Proctor after their popish order and custome Where for bribes fees al causes be they neuer so fowle corrupt are handled pleaded and proceede that I say not succeede And without such bribes fees no cause be yt neuer so iust and y e partie neuer so poore or innoceÌ„t hath audience or help Here being so many officers catchpolles attendantes to be feed pleased To all these rauenous Birdes with fingers the suetors sommoned become a pray But especially the faithful such as speak against and will not of conscience and faith vnto God stoope downe vnto their antichristian power or obey their vngodly decrees These shalbe worse vsed then any trayterous Papists or facinorous persons whatsoeuer who shall all of them by their purse or freindes escape well enough find fauour when these poore soules shall neuer geat out of their handes without wrack either of bodie or soule either death or denying the faith These though there be no direct matter euidence witnesses or accusers against them yet shall themselues be inforced to a corporal oth as they call it vpon and by a booke to answeare directly and truly to such articles and poyncts as shalbe propownded vnto them If they denie or make conscience either of the maner or matter of this oth then instead of godly instruction or christian persuasion they are forthwith committed to prison yea for the most parte to close prison there to remaine shut vp from al ayre exercise friendes dueties callings c vntill they either yeild to take this idolatrous blasphemous and impious oth or dye vnder their handes No baile maineprise help benefite or redresse by lawe by the Queenes Royal writtes or Courtes allowed to any that are committed by the leaste of this hellish Anarchie Whose lawlesse and insolent dealinges oppressions iniuries violence may not be caled in question or examined by anie ciuile Magistrates or Courtes All which they patronize by her Ma ties high or especiall Commission vnto them Although her Ma tie suffreth her Roial Prerogatiue to be handled considered of in some of these ciuile Courtes yea graunteth to all her free borne subiectes the benefite free vse of her Highnes lawes euen in anie cases or causes betwixt her Highnes and them according to the great Charter in the Magna Charta whervnto her Ma tie is sworne which Charter also these lawlesse Prelates most presumptuouslie and tyrannously violate breake vnder colour of her Ma ties Commission thus setting her Ma ties Commission against her Ma ties Prerogatiue Courtes Royal against that great Charter of the land against all her Highnes lawes yea against al the lawes of God the TestameÌ„t Kingdome of Christ. But to say as it is their procedinges are both against ther coÌ„mission if they might be dulie examined conferred thervnto and against her Ma tâ—es meaning Whose milde preceable iust gouernmeÌ„t in al causes that procead from her self assure vs that She would neuer wittingly graunt such a commission as shoulde be so preiudicial to her owne Crowne Royal dignitie to the estate of the Church and of the whole common wealth as this wherby these Prelates beare themselues their vngodly procedings is That power graunted vnto her Ma tie by ParliameÌ„t to appoinct aucthorize whom she shal thinck meet to execute vnder her al maner iurisdictioÌ„s priuiledges and preemineÌ„ces concerning ecclesiastical causes to her belonging is as also al other her Princely power aucthoritie alwaies to be vnderstood in the Lord so far as shalbe found consonant to his word For neither is there giuen neither may or wil her Ma tie take or exercise any furder or other power then the Lord her God giueth her In whom Kinges reigne of whom their power is diriued and holden by whom yt is circumscribed and limited to whom they shal as anie other persons accompt If then these Prelates and their antichristian Hierarchie these romish Courtes and their popish procedinges in the same be not fownde to be of God to haue anie warrant in his word or to belong to the ministrie gouernment of Christes Church then can no commission or humane aucthoritie whatsoeuer make them lawfull impose or enioyne them vpon the Church Neither ought anie Christian to obey them at the CommandmeÌ„t of any mortal maÌ„ Men must alwaies be obeyed in the Lord. Vnto whom when or wherein they be fownd coÌ„trarie or opposite there must God rather then meÌ„ be obeyed His indignation that caÌ„ cast both body soule into hel fire is more to be feared theÌ„ theirs that can but touch the body only To obey Gods commaundements and to refrayne
persecution of all such as either refraine speake against or reproue their coÌ„munion ministrie worship gouernment being ioyned We may by all these reasons seuerally and haue by them altogether proued these Parrish assemblies in this estate not to be the true established Churches of Christ to which the faithful seruants of Christ ought to resort and ioyne So then all men maie see how falsly this accuser hath sclandered vs and howe far he hath strayed from the present matters and transgressions in question both through his whole booke and in this conclusion of his booke where he chardgeth pronownceth and condemneth vs as heretickes c for condemning a Church for some light imperfections in their worship wantes in their discipline c wheras we for their idolatrie confusion sacrilege false and antichristian ministrie and gouernment obstinacie in all these sinnes hatred of the truth and persecution of CHRISTES seruants haue proued the Church of ENGLAND not to be the true but the malignant Church Therfore wee condemne no true Church as he accuseth neither for such causes as he surmiseth Nor yet do wee but rather God himself condemne them Wee but discouer their sinnes and shew them their estate by the worde of God refrayning and witnessing against their abhominations as we are commaÌ„ded by that voyce from heaueÌ„ Go out of her my people that ye communicate not in her sinnes and that ye receiue not of her plagues c. In the same loue knowing this terror and irreuoâ—able decree of the Lorde against the false Church and all her children wee most earnestly exhorte and instantlie beseech euen so manie to whom the truth of the Lorde and their owne saluation is deare to flee out of the middest of her and to saue themselues from this peruerse generation and to deliuer euerie man his soule from the fierce wrath of the Lord according to the councel of the Prophets and Apostles of God And not to be stayed by the vayne persuasions titles and promises of these false Prophets of thinges present as of the Church worde ministrie Sacraments c or deluded by their vayne hope of things to come as reformation saluation c or deterred with their vayne threates of schisme heresies daunger persecusion c from obeying the voyce of God whilest he yet speaketh and calleth vnto you and offreth grace lest you despise the acceptable tyme of the Lorde the day of his saluation and he sweare in his wrath that you shal not enter into his rest for your disobedience and then hereafter your flight be in the wynter or on the Sabboth when the wrath of God is come vpon you and there be no meanes or way to escape For the vaine boastings of these Prophetts of things present and promises of things to come reade Reuel 18. where the Holie Ghost sheweth their Church to become the habitation of Diuells the prison of euerie vncleane spirit the cage of euerie vncleane and hatefull birde howsoeuer she boast her self a Queene to be no Widowe to see no sorrowe For this in one day shal her plagues come death and sorrowe and famine and she shalbe burnte in fire because the God that coÌ„demneth her is a mighty Lorde You there reade how neither her shipmasters marchantmeÌ„ Princes or multitudes shalbe able to reserue her wares or preserue her from the burning of this heauenly fire No lamentation caÌ„ ease or diminish her sorrowe and grief No balme can cure her woundes no arte reforme or repaire her breaches nor arme or power shield her from the weight of that great milstone that shall presse her and all her children to the deapth of hell being lifted vp ouer her by that mightie Angel The Lord hath pronownced his decree is irreuocable The voyce of his heauenlie harpers musitions the psalmes spiritual songs laudes of his Saincts shal neuer be heard in her anie more the skil and art of any heauenlie artificer worckman or builder shall neuer be found in her any more the voyce of the milstone that grindeth foode for the soule shal neuer be heard in her any more the light of a candle muchlesse the burning lamps of Gods spirit shal neuer shine in her any more to keepe out darcknes the heauenlie and comfortable voice of the Bridegome and of the Bride of CHRIST speaking to his Church in instruction exhortation comfort of CHRISTES Church speaking to him in prayers prayses c shall neuer be heard in her anie more Let her Ship-masters then her Mariners Marchantmen Enchanters and false Prophets vtter and retayle her wares deck and adorne her with the skarlet purple gold siluer iewels and ornaments of the true Tabernacle Let them in her offer vpp their sacrifices their beastes sheepe meale wyne oyle their odors oyntements and franckencense Let them dawbe and vndershore her builde and reforme her vntil the storme of the Lordes wrath breake foorth the morning wherof al these Diuines shal not foresee much-lesse eschue or withstand the terror therof vntil the wall and the dawbers be no more But let the wise that are warned and see the euill feare and depart from the same so shall they preserue their owne soules as a praye And the Lorde shall bring them amongst his redeemed to Sion with praise and euerlasting ioy shalbe vpon their heades they shall obtaine ioy and gladnes and sorrowe and mourning shal flee away FINIS AS WE shewed in these 4. PRINCIPAL TRANSGRESSIONS in y e worship coÌ„munion ministri gouernment of the Church of ENGLAND the causes of our separatioÌ„ from their publick assemblies in this estate So at their instance we in like maner set downe vnto them our purpose intent what we now indeuored meant to doe in certaine breife Articles Of those transgressions chardges how this Champion hath defended cleared their Church by that which hath bene written now on both sides may appeare The articles of themselues are so iust and holie as no Diuel can impugne or denie no man of religion conscience or shame gaynesay or resist anie one of them yet hath Mr. GIFFARD instigated by the spirit of vayne-glorie and envie in a singular zeale enterprised to answere and confute them all as you may see in his first writing The cauills and vanitie wherof as also his vniust suspitions calumniations reproches against vs thervpon being layd open in our first reply vnto him so far hath he bene from desisting to sporne against the prikes to sclander accuse and rayle on vs or to take a more sober and christian course for the discussing and deciding these controuersies betwixt him and vs as he hath burst forth yet into furder malice and madnes blaspheming vs in euerie sentence of this his second answere to these our articles with such store of contumelious and odious wordes as if that corrupt synck of his heart could neuer be emptied the malice of his minde and venome of his tongue neuer satiate or vttered
two edged sworde of his mouth to cut downe all sinne The mightie spirituall weapons of his worde to bring in captiuitie euerie thought to the obedience of CHRIST to to the ouerthrowing of all munitious reasonings and sublimitie lifted vp against the knowledge of God and to haue in a readines to reuendge all disobedience To cast sinne into the Epha and the talent of Gods iudgment vpon yt and to remoue yt out of the Church with all power and celeritie with the vvinges of a Storke and the wynde vnder their vvinges and to lift vp the Epha betwixt the heauen and the earth in the eyes of all men CHRIST hath giuen this aucthoritie to his seruantes whom he hath left in his house and hath commanded them all therfore to watche together To obserue and avoide them that cause anie diuisions or offenses contrarie to the doctrine that they haue learned To contende for the maintenance of the whole faith Not to intermit or to be withdrawen from anie part of the same by anie man or Angell for persecution or anie thing that man can doe vnto them euerie where vvarning instructing and exhorting his seruantes not to feare persecution for righteousnes sake to take vp and beare his crosse daylie c Likewise for the neglect of those thinges God reproueth and stirreth vp the Churches To repent and to doe the first workes or ells he wil come against them speedily and remoue their candlestick To repent or ells he wil come against them speedily and fight against them with the sworde of his mouth Commending those Churches that kept that they had the worde of his patience in persecution promising them the Crowne of life if they remaine faithfull vnto the death to make them that ouercome pillers in the Temple of God c. M r. Giffard he is contented that vnder heathen or popish Princes the Church now may reforme or proceed in the practize of the whole will of God but at no hand where the Prince posesseth the faith in the fundamental poinctes though otherwise he erre and mis-leade the whole Churche in some matters of doctrine or touching the rules of discipline In these abuses and corruptions euerie priuate man is to keepe a good conscience but none to take publick aucthoritie to reforme Because these Kinges are principal members of the Church c. What cleare conscience any priuate man that yeildeth to these publick seene errors or transgressions Or the whole Church whilest yt wittinglie doth or suffreth these thinges to be donne can keepe we haue aboue shewed in the SECOND PRINCIPAL TRANSGRESSION How expreslie contrarie this leauened traditionall proposition of M r. G. is to all these Scriptures and doctrines aboue recited is so euident to all men as yt needeth no furder or lardger refutation If God haue committed his whole worde vnto his Church as the foundation of their faith and of euery action they doe commanding them to stand to the death for the maintenance of the whole truth and the holy practize of the same and to cast out in his name and power all that publicklie and obstinatlie hold anie opinion or that so commit anie transgression contrary to his worde If God for the neglect hereof haue menaced to come in iudgment and exhorteth the Churches vpon the first discouerie hereof to speedie repentance Howe can M r. G. persuade the Churche to contynue wittingly in open errors publick transgression or in this estate promise them peace The holie Ghost hath not set downe this as a note of a true Prophet Neither hath God promised anie peace to thē that wittingly contynue in any error or transgression vntil they repent Doth not one deade flie putrifie and cause to stincke the whole oyntment of the Apothecary A litle leauen make sower the whole lumpe Wee would knowe of him therfore whether that diuelish distinction of fundamental errors and transgressions and such errors and transgressions as he holdeth not fundamentall wherebie he turneth away the practize of what part of Gods worde he lusteth and iustifieth or at the least tollerateth what open errors publick transgressions of Gods worde he lusteth will excuse him or anie that wittinglie breake the least of Gods commandements And whether the aucthoritie or christianitie of anie Prince wil in that daye excuse before the Lorde anie man that hath at the Princes commandment committed much more contynued to committ anie transgression without vnfaigned repentance But if the least error be contrarie to true faith the least transgression sinne and no knowen sinne or error to be committed or continued in howe can he persuade the Churche to commit or to contynue in anie error or transgression so highly to tempt and prouoke the Lorde And now to the poynct we would know of him whether anie Prince much-lesse a christian Prince may abrogate the commandement of God or take away that power and aucthoritie that God hath giuen to the Church vnto the worldes end If not but that the commandements of God remaine alwaies the same and the Churche hath the same power vnder a christian magistrate that vnder a heathen why then yt ought not to proceede to the obedience and practize of Gods worde whether in correcting and redressing faultes or in going forewarde in the wayes of God as they are reueiled vnto them as well and freelie vnder a Christian Prince as vnder an heathen Is it because a Christian Princd is the principall and greatest member of the Church why by so much the rather ought and the better may the Church doe it hauing now such a singular help and rare accomplement of so pretious a member Euerie true member is giuen for the help and comfort and not for the hindrance and hurt of the body Wee may then much better conclude that the Church vnder a christian Prince may procede with all freedome in the sincere practize of CHRISTES Gospel because he is a member of CHRIST of the Church then vnder an infidel Prince that is an enimie to CRHIST and to the Church ANother reason he bringeth whie the Churche vnder a christian Prince may not reforme without his licence or vntill hee will because it is the office of a christian Prince to reforme the Church and therfore the Church in taking such a publicke worke vpon them shoulde but vsurpe and encroch vpon his office Because wee are so apt to mis-vnderstand one an other and to take words in too lardge or straight a sense it were good wee set downe what is meant by this reformation here spoken of before we proceede Wee meane then by reformation to reduce all thinges and actions to the true antient and primatiue paterne of Gods worde This we graun to be the office and duetie of the Prince to doe aswel in the Church as in the common Wealth The Princes eye may suffer no transgression of Gods lawe he is to ouersee and see euerie one to doe their dueties in the office
discipline CHRIST hath giuen which cannot be ioyned vnto exercised or preserued by anie other lawes then God hath made as by due examination in perticular of the least or best thing they thus deuise and enioyne will appeare CHRIST that great Architect of his house hath left vs a most absolute exact paterne of all things belonging therevnto vnto which no humane deuise can more be added or ioyned then heaueÌ„ earth can be commingled Wherefore we may by better right esteeme M r. G. a corrupter of CHRISTS discipline or rather a fordger of a newe discipline for making bringing in new lawes into the church other then Gods lawes Then he may pronownce vs denyers cutters off of CHRISTES discipline for allowing and receiuing no lawes for anie action in the Church but Gods lawes HIs other reason is this Princes ought to establish the whole christian religion to punish idolaters wicked despisers heretickes schismaticks blasphemers But this caÌ„not be donne but by lawes made established Therfore Princes ought to make lawes for the Church And I in denijng this denie a great part of that power which God hath giuen vnto Princes His first proposition is no more then I haue professed in mine answere If he vnderstand his second proposition of other lawes then God hath made I then denie yt as most false vntrue whereof vntill he make proofe he hath not obtayned his purpose nor convinced mine answere And therfore til then must withdrawe his triumphant conclusions I hold that Gods true religioÌ„ is only founded vpon and established by his owne holie worde lawes and not vpon or by mans lawes And that the Prince may aswel make a newe religion as newe lawes for religion Furder as I hold in Gods worde sufficient rules directions for all actions of the Church So hold I in the same most iust iudgments meete punishments to euerie transgressioÌ„ So that the Prince can no way better advance establish true religion then by yea can no way establish by but yt the promulgation and due execution of Gods lawes calling all men of all degrees to the hearing sincere practize thereof in their calings and dulie punishing al such as transgresse the same after such order proclamed established God hath incommended inioyned the booke of his lawe to all Princes therbie the gouerne both the Church common Wealth in al things as we plentifullie reade Deut. 17. 18. 19. 5. 32. 29. 9. c. and 4. 6. Ioshu 1. 8. 1 Kinges 2. 3. 1 Chron. 28. and in sondrie other places The Kinge is not made the Lord but the Minister of Gods lawe to which he is bownde and for the transgression therof shall answere vnto God as anie other person He is placed in the seate of God and the worde of God committed vnto him not to alter or neglect the least part thereof Not to make newe lawes but to keepe see obserued those lawes which God hath made Greate then is their ignorance that thincke not that God hath giuen sufficient instruction direction in his holie worde for all actions of his Church And greater their wickednes that knowing this dare giue mortal men leaue to make lawes for Gods Church If they say that the Princes lawe must be consonant to Gods lawe Then I answere they haue warrant groundworke in Gods worde which if they haue then are they Gods not mans lawe For Gods lawe extendeth as farr as the equitie of his law extendeth But what lawes soeuer haue no warrant of groundworke in Gods worde those cannot be said to be coÌ„sonant to Gods wil because there we haue the whole minde of CHRIST and so are to be auoyded as superfluous burdenous and contrarie to Gods word how necessarie or expedieÌ„t soeuer they may seeme to humane wisdome AND now let the christian reader iudge what cause M r. GIFFARD had to pronownce this mine answere to the Bishopps question Anabaptistical when I therein acknowledged the whole lawe of God the place office and whole power of Princes that God hath giuen them all which the Anabaptistes vtterlie denie Or with what conscience he hath chardged vs as seduced by Brownes writing And to hold that Princes ought not to compel their Subiectes to the true worship of God Neither ought to reforme the Church All which sclanders this my answere which he here endeuoreth to confute refuteth to his face FINIS A BREIFE REFVTATION OF Mr. GEORGE GIFFARD HIS SVPPOSED CONSIMILItude betvvene the Donatists and vs wherein is shewed how his Arguments haue bene and may be by the Papists more iustly retorted against himself and present estate of their Church Mr. GIFFARD a man inexpert in discerning the times seasons hauing long skirmished with vaine titles and assuming the matter in question vndertaketh now to deface all Gods inuiolable ordinaÌ„ces with a certayne dialogue betwene Augustine and the Donatistes and to make CHRISTS ordinances and our persons odious as he supposeth to all men therby to heale the wounde of the Beaste and dawbe vp the whole rable of the Romish Ministerie lawes worship gouernment which al men of anie iudgment know to be receiued from the Pope He taketh vpon him to compare vs to the Donatistes and without considering the causes persons from which and from whome they separated as also the times and ages He sclanderously wresteth some perticular doctrines about separation and wee therevpoÌ„ must needes be Donatistes But we haue learned that we ought al to take heede to the most sure word of God and that he that speaketh ought to speake as the wordes of God and to this lawe and this testimonie if anie speake not it is because there is no light in him We refuse vtterly to be drawen into this kinde of fruictlesse strife and will not intermedle either with the Donatistes not Augustines persons nor yet with their causes or maner of pleading them but only shewe in a fewe breif notes how vniustly this godlesse quarrelous man hath dealt herein euen in the thinges he hath set downe leauing the better veiwe thereof to such as will bestowe their tirne that waye and those to due consideration and vnpartiall triall by the worde and spirit of God AT his first entrance into his discourse he denyeth vs to be Christians saying all that are gathered by CHRISTS doctrine only vnto Christ alone as yt is written one is your Doctor euen CHRIST Math. 23. are only by his title called Christians But we are wicked Schismatickes therfore we must be called by the first Aucthors or chief maintayners thereof To which we answere that M r. Giffard his Collegiates haue giuen out for vndoubted doctrines that such as hold the fundamental doctrines of iustification by faith in Chrâ—st alone are to be holden Christians and to cleare our selues a litle further we seeke to be gathered and ruled by Christs doctrine only and by Christ alone as our King Priest and Prophet yea
the law yet his office still retained but we hold that the Minister ought to repent his sinne before he administer and the Church to admonish him of his knowen sinne before they suffer him to administer and not coÌ„municat with him if he be obstinat If the Church neglect their dutie he and they transgresse yet do we not say that it is no Sacrament that he deliuereth or that his ministerie is disanulled But we must put Mr. Giffard in minde how far he is gone from our cause in this comparison We neuer disalowed their SacrameÌ„ts as being administred by a lawful Minister in a lawful office yet the man a sinner But of such counterfeites as haue neither lawfull office entrance c but stand enchanters in Antichristes kingdome so that these are not the personal sinnes of a Minister in the Church wherin Mr. Giff. wickednes appeareth to make the questioÌ„ of the mans person or his sinne when it is the ministery office entrance administation al which wee hold to be Antichristian and to haue nothing to do with the seales of Gods Couenant in this estate not here to speake of the altering of the institution in the maner of administring yt vvhich the Donatistes neuer either had cause or made question of as it seemeth And whether anie promise is made to the elementes abused in the false yea whether to the elementes or to the keeping of the lawes and ordinances in the true Church let Mr. Giffard make answere Further when we affirme the Sacramentes of the false Church to be no true seales of the Couenant because they are Idolatours and Idolatrous the Lordes ordinances prophaned and lawes wholly violated wee do not therby conclude it to bee no Baptisme concerning the outwarde washing for wee can put difference betwene a false and none a false Sacrament or counterfeit signe and none for the false Church is saide to haue her peace offringes And although wee holde them highly to tempt God to their owne condemnation if they repent not that wittingly prophane or of wilfull ignorance transgresse those high ordinances as in the false Church to be superstitious of the element where the lawe and Couenant is broken yet do wee not therevpon affirme wee neede anie reiterating of the outward signe as the Donatistes but hold this false signe nowe a true signe sufficient to vs concerning the outward washing Circumcision in the Apostasie of Israel which was without promise to the receiuers in that estate and nothing but sinne in yt yet stood for a sufficient outward cutting wheÌ„ anie of them returned to the Church and ate of the Passouer wherof it was not lawfull for any vncircumcised to eate how the signe might haue bene reiterated if need had so required we may see by that of y e Apostle 1 Cor. 7. for gathering againe their circumcisioÌ„ if it might be gathered againe then secondly cut Where Mr. Giffard then in stead of performing his comparison saith that the Donatistes in rebaptising did better of both because he that is not baptised ought to be baptised he bewrayeth his ignorance that cannot put difference betwene a false Sacrament and none a false signe and none The grossnes also he supposeth to haue bene in vs is found in himself that lest he should make the false and counterfeit washing in the false church to be none runneth to iustifie the Church ministerie sacramentes c at ROME and so must conclude himself of necessitie a Schismaticke or a popish Priest which he will And where he demandeth whether he that knoweth he was neuer baptised can be saued if he seek not to be baptised when he may haue yt We demande againe how euer true baptisme should be restored if the false signe of baptisme which was then without promise in the false Church should not now be sufficient concerning the outward signe To the Government IN the principle of principles that I say not the verie summe of all causes of our separation from these assemblies namely the gouernment which Mr. GIFFARD termeth discipline he can not finde any coÌ„similitude betwene the Donatistes and vs for the confesseth he hath not read that they did take anie exception against it in that tyme. Take your word discipline for al the meanes that CHRIST hath apointed by his lawes ministerie censures to keepe guyde gouerne his Church ioyntly and seuerally to be instructed in their duties and see what a dilemma you are come vnto this being graÌ„ted that herein ther is no agreement seeing the chief cause of our controuersie with you is for the rable of this Antichristian and pseâ—dohierarchie Courtes c which haue no place in the Church of God where CHRISTS officers offices lawes censures ought to gouerne and guyde his Church But here according to your accustomed maner you goe about to say there were faultes to be found in their gouernment then yea as well as in their worship c which you affirmed to be as corrupt as yours is now wherein if ante regard were to be had of your words you would not only make those Bishopps in as euill state as these that Church as yours now but haue cast into the fire al the platformes that your learned Reformistes haue pleaded for from that falsly so called Primatiue Church Well I haue told you the question is not whether they had the true gouernment or no whether in that gouernment there were corruptions defaultes or negligences but whether the Donatistes separated therfore or no they had the same offices officers lawes censures that the other so that you speak not only false in saying they might haue had as iust cause in this respect of separation as we but also bring the Argument to confound your self with your whole Church wherin you stand a Priest Thus you are separated from the Church of ROME but retaine still the same hierarchie worship gouernment that they vsed and haue as the Do. of the Churches from which they separated therfore you in this as in the rest of your Argumentes conclude your selues Donatistes Heretickes and Schismatickes from the Church of ROME But Mr. GIFFARD will denie that the Donatistes had as great cause to separate from those Churches froÌ„ which they separated as those English Priestes from their Graundfather the Pope for it was not so corrupted The same we answere to you for your gouernment how then shall we end this matter I take it thus that the Priestes of England despise the Popes person and yet keepe the same orders lawes officers offices that he erected So the Donatistes kept stil the orders of gouernment that the Churches they separated from Now if we can cleare our selues that we retaine not the same gouernment amongst vs that the Church doth we separat from which I thinke cannot be denyed then Mr. GIF hath in a chief principle put himself and this whole laud into the number of Donatistes The Argument is now this The Church of England separateth from the Church of