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A01004 God and the king. Or a dialogue wherein is treated of allegiance due to our most gracious Lord, King Iames, within his dominions Which (by remouing all controuersies, and causes of dissentions and suspitions) bindeth subiects, by an inuiolable band of loue and duty, to their soueraigne. Translated out of Latin into English.; Deus et rex. English Floyd, John, 1572-1649.; More, Thomas, 1565-1625, attributed name. 1620 (1620) STC 11110.7; ESTC S107002 53,200 142

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in the hands of the Consul● swore allegiance fealty to the com●monwealth and when he made th● Pretor to gouerne in his name according to the ceremony deliuering the naked sword sayd to him Vse this sword for me if I gouerne iustly i● otherwise vse it against me By wh●ch resignation both of state and life into the Common-wealthes hands he more secured them both then any enforced Oath that he held the Crowne from God only could haue done Philanax You haue shewed the first proposition of Theodidact to be neyther a solid ground of soueraignty nor a doctrin apt to nourish in subiects minds affection to their Kings I desire you wold passe to the examination of the second that Kings haue no Superior that may call him to account or pun●sh him but God alone Aristobulus Heere Theodidact goeth forward in building the soueraignty of Kings ●ither vpon manifest falshood or tot●ering vncertaineties That the King ●ath no superior but God alone that ●ay punish him all learned men ge●erally Papists Puritans Pro●estants ●eny Philanax I do much wonder that you say Protestants ●each th●t the Kinge may ●e sentenced and punished by any man ●pon earth I thinke you meane Puri●ans not our Protestants that pro●esse to follow the Religion established ●y Parlament Aristobulus I meane Protestants that are ene●ies of Puritans and conformable to ●he state and to increase your wondring I add that howsoeuer the word Supreme Gouernour and Head of the Church go currant in England yet in ●ense our Deuines giue our Kinge no greater authority in causes Ecclesiasticall then Papists do I desire not to be ●eleeued vnlesse I make what I haue ●ayd euident by the testimonies of them that haue lately written abo●● this argument First concerning the ver● title they say the King hath no any spirituall Ecclesiasticall power a● a●l his power sayth doctor Morton no● Bishop of Chester is but corporall and ca● go no ●urther then the body He hath sayt● M. Burhill no iurisdiction in the Church ey●ther ●or the inward o● outward Court his powe● is meere temporall and laicall nor in it sel● spirituall though the matter and obiect there●● be spirituall such power and no greater sayt● M. Richard Tomson then Iewes Infidel● and Turkes haue ouer the Christian Churc● within their dominions Secondly concerning Controuersies of fayth the Deane of Lichfiel● doctor Tooker disclaymeth as an im●pudent slaunder that the Church o● England holdes the King to be their prima● or head or iudge of Controuersies about fait● and Religion To the Apostles Christ gaue powe● to gather Councells and to define solemnly th● Churches doubts The sentence of Councell sayth M. Richard Harris hath without th● King the force of an ecclesiasticall law the King addes thereunto corporall penalty M. Morton ●●yth that Imperiall and Kingly authority in ●●irituall causes reacheth no further then as it ●●longeth to outward preseruation not to the ●ersonall administration of them neyther doth ●●e King challenge nor subiects condescend vnto ●ore But most cleerly M. Barlow late ●ishop of Lincoln● The King sayth he in ●ontrouersies about fayth hath not iu●icium definitium sentence d●finitiue to ●●scerne what is sound in ●●●inity but when the ●hurch hath determined matters of fayth he ●ath iudicium executiuum sentence exe●utiue to commaund the professing therof ●ithin his Kingdomes And is not this the very doctrine ●f Papists and that doctrine which ●●rmerly our Arch-bishop Bancro●t re●ected with great scorne as disgrace●ull to Kings making them but Car●●fices Ecclesiae the executioners of the Churches will and pleasure Thirdly concerning the offices of ●his power they teach the King hath no ●ower to vse any censure or to cast any out of ●he Church by sentence but his office is to punish ●hem with corporall chastisement on whom Bishops haue laid their censures The King doth ●ot make or vnmake Bishops they are made by the Bishops of the Kingdone as by them they a●● desposed and vnmade The King hath right t● name and present persons to benefices as other lay men of lower conditiō haue but benefices ei●ther with cure or without cure great or little he neither doth nor euer did bestow much lesse the ecclesiasticall dignities as the Bishopricks Arch-Bishopricks of his Kingdome Fourthly concerning the Kings sudordination to Bishops Doctor Barlow highly commendeth the saying of Ambrose Bishops in matters concerning faith are to iudge of Emperors not Emperors of Bishops The Deane of Lich●eild saith that the King is and with Valentinian Emperor doth acknowledge himselfe the sonne and p●pill of the Church and the scholler of the Bishops What more do papists require Can he then iudg teach his Fathers Iudges and Maisters in those thinges wherein he is their sonne pupill and scholler Finally M. Burhill saith that the King sup●eme gouernour of the Church may by his Bishops be cast out of the Church VVhat Ambrose did lawfully to Theodosius our Bishops may do lawfully to the King ●or the like offence And what did Ambrose to Theodosius He cast him by sentence out of the Church he stood ready to keepe him out by force and called him Ty●ant ●o his face he forced him to e●act a temporall law concerning the ●xecution of the sentence in matter of ●ife and death he commanded him out of the quire or the place of Priests sent him into the body of the Church to pray with laymen And may the Bishop of Canterb●●y lay the same punishments on his M●iesty yea saith the Bishop of Ely perchaunce the Pope may excōmunicate the Kinge depriue him of the common goods of the Church Doe you see to how many censures Protestants make the King subiect Truly I see not how any Religiō doth or can make Kings more absolute and subiect to fewer Superiors then Papists doe The Puritan will haue them subiect to the Pastor of euery parishe that hath a Consistory as our Bishop Bancro●t sayth They banish one Pope and admit a thousand The Protestant makes them obnoxius to the censure of Bishops without any restraynt wheras the Romanists out of respect to the Maiesty of Kings reserue the power of censuring them ●o the supreame Pastor But to returne to Theodidact you se● he keepeth his custome to ground al●legiance due to Kings vpon do●ctrines eyther questionable or 〈◊〉 denyed of all sides his second propo●sition that the Kinge is free from al● punishment that mā may inflict bein● rather more vncertaine then hi● first that Kings h●●e their power only fro● God Philanax It seemeth by your discourse tha● Theodidact makes Kinges more absolu●●● then other Protestants doe teacheth against them that the King may no● be excommunicated or cast out of th● Church For he sayth that the Kinge i● free from all punishment that man can inflict excommunication without doubt is a great punishment Ministers with●out question are men Aristobulus It is hard to say what Theodida●●
vsing at his death these words Because I haue loued Iustice and hated wickednesse I now dy in banishment Vrbane that succeded Gregory both in office and in zeale against the Emperour being driuē out of Italy into France hauing so great need of the Kings assistance yet was he so voide of humane respects that at that very time he excommunicated Philip King of France for putting away his true wife and liuing in open incest The Kinge saith an vnpartiall Historian threatned that except Vrbane would restore him to the Church Crowne he wold depart with his whole Kingdome from his obedience the obedience of the Roman Sea yet this moued not that most holy Bishop to relent In fine Philip was faine to yeeld not being able to extort otherwise releasment from excommunication and so religion conscience preuailed ouer th● Scepter and the Diademe the inuincible Maiesty and Name of King So admirable for constancy were those Popes that vsed their authority to depose wicked Emperors so free from loue of the world that we may ius●ly thinke God fauoured their cause H●●soeuer their perpetuall good successe for so many ages against all aduersaries though the reason therof be hidden may giue iust cause in my opinion for Kings to be wary how they aduenture their Crownes vpon preuailing against them and how they deuise new oathes of Allegiance that wage warre against the authority of their Sea And this is the last thing which I desire to leaue to be seriously pondered by you that loue the King so I cōclude praying the Lord hartily that as hitherto he hath defended Kingly authority in our great Britany frō open enemies so now he will defend the same from secret plots and trayterous Treatises which by shew of friendship seek the ouerthrow thereof Philanax I am glad Aristobulus that wee fell into this discourse in which you haue cleerly discryed Theodidacts fraudulent vndermining of Royall Authority The publishers of that booke besides their secret plotting agaynst 〈◊〉 ●oueraignty of Princes seeme like●●●● to haue had an eye to their owne ●uere in the di●ulging therof For there being a commaund that this Booke both in publicke and priuate schooles be read to Children of both sexes ech booke sold for six pence which is hardly worth two pence you must needs see a great summe of money that hēce is yearely made a summe I say so great as doth farre surpasse the custome of the Peter-pence which in old time euery house payed to the Pope Notwithstanding at this their enriching themselues by this deuise I do not so much grieue but I am hartily sory that so many odious vngrounded positions cōcernin● Royall Authority that may raise vp horror rather thē loue of Kinges be instilled into the tender mindes of Childrē which afterward when any occasion is giuen may soone turne into hatred But thereof yo● haue spoken inough Wherfore I likewise will end with your harty good wishes towardes his Maiesty and our most gracious Prince Charles beseching the Almighty to defend them both and to giue them the spirit of wised 〈◊〉 wherby they may discouer these ●●●●sons hidden with a shew of friendshipp The Printer to the Reader THIS Treatise gentle Reader may seeme written by some English Protestant agaynst some Puritans enemies of Kingly Soueraignity which by them in former times openly impugned they now seeke to ouerthrow by groūding the same vpon odious and ●aungerous Positiōs touching the immunity of Tyrants The Authour disputeth the questiō of this weighty subiect in such moderate stile and manner bringing 〈…〉 ns both solide and not reg 〈…〉 ing with Catholike doctrine that he may be thought to be in opinion Catholike though for modesties sake to the end that this truth might be more pleasingly accepted of Protestants in this worke he discourseth as if he were Protestant And for this reason some Catholike arguments he doth pretermit others he doth not vrge to the vttermost partly for breuityes sake but cheefly because his intēt is no more then to shew that the new Protestants principles from which they deduce R●yall Authority be at the least doubtfull and vncertayne And this he doth cleerly demonstrate and thence concludes that it is against the rules euen of humane policy to forsake the most sure grounds of Soueraigne Power in Kinges whereon Christian Kingdomes relying haue hitherto stood firme and florished vnd 〈…〉 Catholike discipline iust l 〈…〉 and to build the sacred authority of Princes whereon their peoples safety dependes vpon the new vngrounded Doctrines Paralogismes of Scriptures which seemes to haue byn the drift of the former Dialogue For this cause I thought it would not be amisse nor lost labour to put the same in print renewed before hand corrected The title God and the King I would not alter because i● two wordes it doth fully put down● the Catholike opinion concerning Princes Authority their subiects Allegiance For as this trea●ise doth i●sinuate three opinions in this poynt now are in Englād The first of Puritās who wil haue God without King or else such a King that must depend on the peoples beck 〈◊〉 their Consistoriā Preachers 〈…〉 ose perfidious audacity his ●●●esty hath had sufficient experience The second is of Politicians who haue no more Christianity then Parlamentary decrees breath into them These will haue King without God or at least King and God that is God so longe and no longer then the King shall please whome they will haue still obeyed though he go openly about to extinguish the light of Christian Religion The third opinion is of Catholik●s whose ●ote is God and the King● in the first place they worship God in the second the King to whome they giue all Allegiance and subiection as farre as Religion and conscience will permit And this is to giue what is Caesars to Caesar and what is Gods to God Farewell FINIS Dial. God and the Kinge pag. 2. Dial. p. 33. 34. ●peach in the Star-chamber 16.6 Bancroft in the Dangerous po●itiōs p. 33. Psal. 84. v. 16. 2. Thessal ● 2 v. 10. Hooker Ecclesiast pol. prefac p. 28. Hooker ibid. p. 29. Suruey of the holy ●iscipline p. 93. (a) Ba●il Dor. p 40. 41. (b) Knox. histor of the Church of Scot. p. 265. Dang po●it p. 11. (c) Sleydan l. 28. l. 22. O●ian Epist. cent 16. p. 566. (d) Cuspin of the Church of France p. 625 Ferres histor p. 588. (e) Osiand ibid. p. 94. (f) Chitr●eus in chron p. 71 (g) Fulk answere to the declam of P. ●rarines (h) Dang posit l ● c. ● 4● seq (i) Suruey of the disc p. 101. (k) Dang po●it Suruey and others by D. Bancroft (l) Principes sunt omnium quos terra ●ustinet s●ultis●imi deterrimi nebulones Tō 2. Ger. ●en de mag saecul fol. 200. (m) Cal. in Dan. cap. 6. v. 22. (n) Knox to Engl. Scotl. fol. 78. (o) Buchā de i●●e Reg.
himselfe Many who now haue Kings and their maiesti●s most frequent in their mouth still ●arbor we may feare the same affecti●n in their hartes to be freed from thē Yea some Puritanes of the last Parlament in their discontented meetings were bold to propose the changing of the gouernment of the Realme ●rom Monarchy into Democracy Nor may such men● that haue been once tayn●ed with this Con●storiall affection be therfore trusted because they are content to take vpon them the dignity of Bishops wherein they may dissemble by their owne doctrine retayning it not as a sacred but as a temporall office from the Prince and vs● it to set vp the discipline These couert enemies of Kings want not their Confederates in France whose mindes and desires Turquet a famous French Protestant expresseth in his booke written in commendatiō of Democracy aboue Monarchy nor in Holland to which ●his French Democratist Turquet dedi●ated his aforesayd booke as to men ●llready made blessed by this kind of gouernment and fittest instruments ●o bring the same into the rest of reformed Countries Of these enemies o● Monarchy so combined togeather so neighbouring vpō vs so subtile as they lye hiddē vnder roche●s corner caps in the shape of Bishops and their adherents we haue more need to take heed then of the Pope who is further off his cause not popular his party not like to preuaile by force his followers rather ready to dye then they wil dissēble their Religion as these others do Philanax I perceaue by your discourse that more treachery against Kings may be couched in these plausible discourses then I could euer haue imagined The Troians were not wise that trusted the guifts of the Grecians nor can I thinke it policy to rest secure of the bookes or writings which those that once were Puritans publish to flatter the state or the Prince pretending affection to soueraignty which their Religion doth so mightily and so intrinsecally oppugne I feare that as within the Troian horse armed enemies lurked so vnder this new deuised allegiance ●●aytors lye hidden who when they ●●e their time wil shew themselues like ●o many firebrands to incense the ●eople against Kings that challenge ●uch infinite and hatefull authority Aristobulus You feare not without cause yf you ●onsider that by this deuise the authors ●herof who would ●ule themselues a●one do nothing but practise the Ma●hiauilian meanes to attayn therunto They seek to seperate the King from ●hose whose loue may stand him in most steed The foure propositions be●ore set downe make him enter into o●ious competency with foure Aduer●aries The first breeds him a quarrell with the Common wealth from whom he will not haue his power de●iued The second puts him into con●ention with the Church to whose ●irection and censures he wil not haue ●is Crowne subordinate The third ●rings him into hatred of mankind by ●hallenging an irresistable power to ●yranize vpon man at his pleasure The ●ourth conteynes an open ●trife with God for precedence requiring of th● Common weal●h in case they canno● enioy both that they be content t● want rather God then their King An● these quarrells are moued vpon weak● titles and claymes grounded on doctrines either vncertayne or apparantly false and so odious as were the● true yet were it not fit to discuss● them in vulgar Treatises Philanax I see these doctrines are odious an● I nothing doubt but they are likewis● vngrounded yet I desire that you wi● seuerally shew both these things in euery one of the foure propositions tha● I may be better instructed to discoue● the treacherous entendments of thes● counterfeit friendes of Maiesty Aristobulus I will do my endeauour to satisfy your request First I will examine the foure aforesaid Propositions which done I meane to speake a word concerning the Oath which Theodidact buildeth vpon them as vpon foure ●●llers And to beginne with the first ●●at the king hath power from God only inde●endently of the Common wealth ●ecause this is the ground of all his di●course and of the other three I will ●ore fully shew the vnsoundnes there●f that the world may see that Theodi●●ct as either a most vnkillfull Archi●ect that layes so weake a principle of ●he building he p●e●eds to raise to the ●kye or a subtill Arch-traytor pur●osely placing the Soueraignty of Kings which he desires may fall vpon ● most ruinous foundation Three be the wayes by the which ●en come to be Kings popular electi●n lawfull conquest Gods personall ●ppointment sp●cially reuealed I say ●pecially reuealed for I nothing doubt ●ut Kings by the two other titles be made by Gods speciall prouidence The title of election depends on mens ●artes The title of Conquest vpon ●attailes which are two things most ●ncertaine and their successe only in Gods hand who bestoweth popular ●auour and victory in warre on whom ●e will For this re●son it is sayd that Kings raign by him that he placeth thē in their throne ruleth in the Kingdome of men giueth it to whome soeuer he please not that h● maketh Monarches without secōdary causes but because these secondary causes worke not but by the speciall direction of his hand● Wherefore the titles of Election and Conquest be spe●cially from God though not only immediatly from him as is the third clayme when God by speciall reuelation declares his will to haue some certayne person King as he did Saul and Dauid Philanax You omit Succession which is a clayme to the Crowne Aristobulus Succession in bloud is not a prim● and originall title but a meanes to deriue to posterity these three fornamed claymes from Auncestors that first enioyed them none of which titles do sufficiently institute a person King● without the consent of common-wealth When a King is made by ele●●ion the case is cleere but the Con●ueror seemes to come to the crowne ●gainst the Commonwealths will In ●eed the right of Conqueror he may ●aue will they nil they yet Royall ●uthority ouer them he cannot haue ●ithout their graunt The right of ●awfull Conquest binds the state con●uered to make the conquerour their King vpon iust conditions which he ●ay prescribe heauy or hard according ●o the quantity of their offence Yf ●hey refuse to yield he hath the right ●f the sword to force them not the ●ight of Prince to gouerne them till ●hey consent This consent being ●ielded then there begins a new So●iety and Commonwealth compacted ●f ●onquerors and the people con●uered and the Prince of the conque●ing side becomes Kinge to gouerne ●hem both according to the lawes and ●onditions agreed vpon which condi●●ons if he neglect he is no lesse sub●●ct and corrigible by the Common-●ealth then Kings made by ele●tion When God personally appoints any one to be Kinge as he did Saul Dauid neither then haue Kings pow●er immediatly and only from God God is sayd to haue made Saul an● Dauid Kings because he eternall● decreed they should be Kings in du● tyme reuealed